From Yahoo News:
CERN claims faster-than-light particle measured
GENEVA (AP) — Scientists at the world’s largest physics lab say they have clocked subatomic particles traveling faster than light, a feat that — if true — would break a fundamental pillar of science.
The readings have so astounded researchers that they are asking others to independently verify the measurements before claiming an actual discovery.
“This would be such a sensational discovery if it were true that one has to treat it extremely carefully,” said John Ellis, a theoretical physicist at the European Organization for Nuclear Research, or CERN, who was not involved in the experiment.
Nothing is supposed to move faster than light, at least according to Albert Einstein’s special theory of relativity: The famous E (equals) mc2 equation. That stands for energy equals mass times the speed of light squared.
But neutrinos — one of the strangest well-known particles in physics — have now been observed smashing past this cosmic speed barrier of 186,282 miles per second (299,792 kilometers).
Full story here: http://news.yahoo.com/cern-claims-faster-light-particle-measured-180644818.html
From the BBC:
Neutrinos sent through the ground from Cern toward the Gran Sasso laboratory 732km away seemed to show up a tiny fraction of a second early.
The result – which threatens to upend a century of physics – will be put online for scrutiny by other scientists.
In the meantime, the group says it is being very cautious about its claims.
“We tried to find all possible explanations for this,” said report author Antonio Ereditato of the Opera collaboration.
“We wanted to find a mistake – trivial mistakes, more complicated mistakes, or nasty effects – and we didn’t,” he told BBC News.
“When you don’t find anything, then you say ‘Well, now I’m forced to go out and ask the community to scrutinise this.’
Full story here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15017484
h/t’s to WUWT readers Peter Hodges and pearlandaggie
Kelvin Vaughan says:
September 23, 2011 at 8:06 am
“In that case we are not to blame. It’s the people in the future!”
Somebody’s already planning a countermeasure:
http://www.vhemt.org/
Neutrinos are clocked moving faster than the speed of light and are promptly ticketed by a North Carolina State Trooper.
So Al Gore is wrong before he even says it !!! We know this phenomenon well. .
COMMENT FROM THE NEUTRINO WEB BLOG:
‘…………………………………I personally doubt the result but…Violation of the light cones superficially occurs if black holes evaporate.
The two detectors measuring the velocity are measuring two different “things”. An entanglement occurring across the light cone might result in part of probability distribution on one side or the other; while averaging out to the null-geodesic. Of course I don’t like the quantum theories preempting GR; aprior assuming they are better…………………….’
The production of the neutrinos is from high energy protons striking a graphite target. The secondary particles (most importantly, π+ and K+) produced in the target are focussed into a one kilometre long evacuated decay tunnel. Many of these mesons decay, thus producing an intense νμ (neutrino) beam. The π+ decays into a muon and a neutrino.
Original description of CNGS (Cern Neutrinos to Gran Sasso) document:
http://proj-cngs.web.cern.ch/proj-cngs/PDF_files/sl-2000-018.pdf
Description of OPERA: The Neutrino Beam
http://operaweb.lngs.infn.it/spip.php?rubrique41
Stylized cross section of distance travelled by neutrino:
http://proj-cngs.web.cern.ch/proj-cngs/ProjetOverview/NeutrinoBeam.htm
It looks like this story has already shown up in the Wikipedia…..
“Currently there is research from CERN and Laboratori Nazionali del Gran Sasso suggesting the existence of tachyonic neutrinos. More information will be provided in the coming days.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyon
Alex the Sceptic:
“So, if I ride on a neutrino, I’ll be able to watch tomorrow’s news”
No, but you’ll win next years NASCAR Championship Series.
So….. Neutrinos change flavour AND break the speed limit….. I think they are gonna have to look at their neutrino model…. It’s broken.
Does anyone know how they determined the distance between the emitter and the detector?
What if light in vacuum is going a bit slower than the “speed of light” and neutrinos know the actual speed limit better?
I put my money on this being a complete red herring. The report says that the particles travel a distance of 750 km and take 60 nanosceconds less than expected. That translates in a speed of about 1.0004c. That’s a tiny increase and you may ask: if the most basic law is violated by these particles when with only such a small amount, why not by a factor of 1.5 or 2? Such small “effects” are most of time the hallmark of a non-existent effect.
It will turn out to be due to some as yet unrecognised systematic error in the timing.
I seem to remember hearing of a theoretical particle called a tachyon which travelled faster than C but that was ok, apparently, because it never travelled slower than C. Maybe that is the culprit.
If the speed of light in a vacuum has been experimentally measured at 299,792,458m/s, then the chamber will have been evacuated of all measurable particles (in fact there probably needed to be a correction to compensate for the not quite perfect vacuum). However even if that vacuum had been perfect, it would still have contained non-evacuable particles eg dark mattter ??, but perhaps more importantly background electron-neutrinos, which I understand undergo quantum mechanical ‘oscillations’ to and from the more massive muon-neutrino and tau-neutrino. Do these (or other non vacuable particles) have a greater influence on electrons than they have on electron neutrinos. The true speed of light would, therefore, be that measured by CERN for the electron neutrino, or perhaps a little higher than that, if the electron neutrinos are influenced by the ‘vacuum’.
I note that the Kamiokande neutrino detector in Japan detected neutrinos from Supernova 1987A a few hours (I believe 3 hours) before electromagnetic radiation (visible light) was detected.
Wow! So many comments, so quickly!
If we assume the speed of light (in vaccum) cannot be exceeded, then these neutrinos must be taking a more direct route. Light must follow curving space/time to reach it’s target. Neutrinos may be able to short cut this route. Can everyone say “hyperspace”?
Tachyons, FTL, hyperspace… I seem to have awoken this morning inside a Star Trek episode!
Exciting times to be alive. GK
Newtonian physics was once used to explain the movement of the planets. I believe mercury does’t fit (something to do with the gavitational force of the sun). Einsteins theories explained the inconsistancies. This does’nt mean that Newtonian physics is irrelevant.
Just a thought
Lloyd Blankfein (Goldman Sachs) was spotted pushing that particle!
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/its-official-hft-breaks-speed-light-barrier-sets-trading-speed-world-record
He was quoted “I am just doing Gods work”.
I am extremely skeptical about neutrinos being faster than light. It’s either 1987 supernova was one-in-the-universe gigantic coincidence or their timing is 60 nanoseconds wrong at some spot they are unable to find just now. My bets are on the second but I still find it exciting. Notice that the whole effect may be caused by one cable being 18 meters longer than expected.
These relativity deniers are clearly funded by Big Gravity.
They are paid to make such claims to sew the seeds of doubt about relativity.
They will continue to obfuscate, distort the science and otherwise lead people down the path to interstellar travel which is known to be impossible.
The vast majority of scientists agree; the speed of light IS the law.
From the BBC site:
“Quite a few comments from people who don’t understand special relativity. The speed of light is a constant regardless of your frame of reference. i.e. if you were travelling at just under the SOL relative to someone on Earth, the SOL in your frame of reference would still measure the same as the person on Earth. ”
++++++++
Interesting that they are so shocked at CERN. This frame of reference notion was disproved many years ago when the first atomic clocks were flown around the world to prove time/relativity/stuff. It was found there were indeed small differences in the time between the stationary clocks (relative to the surface of the Earth) and the clocks that went forward or backward around the world. Unfortunately the time differences were not consistent with the ‘regardless of your frame of reference’ meme.
To solve the problem, an arbitrary frame of reference was picked – a point high above the North Pole of the Earth. When this reference point was chosen, the three sets of clocks, the eastbound, westbound, and rotating with the earth ones, all the math added up. But ONLY when that arbitrary reference point is chosen. Not a point in the centre of the Sun, nor in stationary space
This is a dagger through the heart of the idea of absolute relativity and a conclusive proof of the existence of an aether. The Earth (and solar system) on average travel towards the Constellation Leo at 62 km per second. The signal from Cern will probably show an inconsistent speed change – i.e. it will vary through the day as the Earth turns. This was shown ages ago too – like 1926. It is not news. The ‘speed of light’ varies depending on the direction you send it, plus or minus 62 km, or some sine function depending the angle from the direction of travel through the aether.
If anyone wants to drag up the Michaelson-Morely experiment, all they proved was that the aether does not have the properties of a gas. Cern has just re-created an experiment done successfully in the early 90’s in Denmark which showed that the speed of electricity in a wire from one town to another varies as a sinewave throughout the Siderial Day (not the 24 hour day). This can only happen if there is aether and we are moving relative to its absolute reference frame.
I must admit that like many people who have commented on this post, Special Relativity has been tested and tested and retested and has each time been proven. I think the scientists have made a basic error in the experiment, probably a definition or measurement that has been mentioned on other posts . I congratulate them on having the guts to ask others for their opinions and I think if they have made an error, they will not be ridiculed by the scientific community, They have shown that they are pragmatic and big enough to realise that their (shared) data may be flawed. Compare that with the arrogant, dogmatic approach of the warmists who ridicule those who hold beliefs that disagree with theirs and manipulate and guard their data.
The mass difference has been seen in electrons. When you pass an electron which has been accelerated via an electron gun through a pair of charged plates, the beam of electrons miss the classically calculated target. If you recalculate the mass of the electron based on the speed, it hits. That has always done it for me as far as demonstrating the mass defect of relativity. There could be other explanations, but I usually go with what works. (As long as I can position the beam effectively, I don’t really care whether the science is real – as long as its predictions work)
Crispin in Waterloo:
September 23, 2011 at 1:04 pm
If I’m reading your comment correctly, it would seem to support my own private hypothesis/conjecture that the universe as a single body has velocity. This being a simple accounting of mass without the need for Higgs, dark matter etc. The problem of “traveling through what” may be answerable. GK
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David Ashton says:
September 23, 2011 at 11:34 am
If the speed of light in a vacuum has been experimentally measured at 299,792,458m/s . . . .
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That’s not a measured value. The speed of light has been defined to be exactly 299,792,458 m/s. It’s the meter that needs to be measured more accurately.
Jim
Roger Sowell says:
September 22, 2011 at 8:09 pm
“My money’s on Einstein. Faster-than-light requires infinite energy. Not about to happen in this universe.”
Accelerating any particle with a rest mass to the speed of light requires infinite energy. A particle could exist at or above C and not be so tethered. Above C it would take infinite energy to slow it down to C, or so I have read.
It’s very easy to explain.
The Neurtrinos are traveling through rock rich in Di-Lithium Crystals.
We know what they do in Warp engines.
Just bring in Scotty to confirm.