Guest post by Dr. Roger Pielke Senior
Comment on The BBC News Article By Richard Black On Climate Geoengineering
There is an article on BBC News on April 6 2011 by Richard Black titled
Climate ‘technical fix’ may yield warming, not cooling
The article starts with the text
“Whitening clouds by spraying them with seawater, proposed as a “technical fix” for climate change, could do more harm than good, according to research.’
Whiter clouds reflect more solar energy back into space, cooling the Earth.
But a study presented at the European Geosciences Union meeting found that using water droplets of the wrong size would lead to warming, not cooling.”
This article further underscores how little we know about the climate system. To deliberately alter the system by geoengineering is, therefore, quite a risky approach. The reason it is even being considered is that there remains the assumption that added CO2 is the dominate climate forcing that can “disrupt” the climate system from its current equilibrium.
Such a static view of the climate is not supported by observations (e.g. see) yet this simplistic view persists as illustrated by the 2007 IPCC, and, more specifically by the BBC news article. In the article it is written [highlight added]
“In an era when many climate scientists are frustrated by slow progress in reducing greenhouse gas emissions, cloud whitening has sometimes been held up as an example of a technology that could make a real difference, at least to “buy time”.
The technique’s prospects depend crucially on how droplet size affects reflectivity It has been calculated that a fairly modest increase in the reflectivity of these marine clouds could balance the warming from a doubling of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere – although even proponents admit it would do nothing to combat the other major consequence of carbon emissions, ocean acidification.”
One of the interviewees for the news article does realize this is a complex issue. As Richard Black writes
“…Piers Forster from the UK’s University of Leeds, who is leading a major UK project on geoengineering techniques, suggested more research would be needed before cloud whitening could be considered for “prime time” use.
“The trouble is that clouds are very complicated; as soon as you start manipulating them in one way, there are a lot of different interactions,” he said.”
The statement that “a fairly modest increase in the reflectivity of these marine clouds could balance the warming from a doubling of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere” illustrates the failure of many to understand the real behavior of the climate system. Even with respect to just the radiative forcing effect of aerosols, in addition to any global average forcing, it is spatial heterogeneity that matters much more than a global average in terms of how weather and ocean patterns could be modified.
As we have shown with respect to inadvertant inputs of aerosols into the atmsophere by human activities; i.e. see
Matsui, T., and R.A. Pielke Sr., 2006: Measurement-based estimation of the spatial gradient of aerosol radiative forcing. Geophys. Res. Letts., 33, L11813, doi:10.1029/2006GL025974.
in regards to their effect on atmospheric circulations in the tropical and subtropical latitudes, in our study, their influence is ~60 times that of the radiative effect of CO2. The deliberate insertion of aerosols for geoengineering would similarly have a large effect on circulation patterns. There is no way to balance the effect of CO2 and of aerosols with the approach discussed in this paper. Adding aerosols as part of geoengineering is not a “climate fix” but a recipe for climate disruption.
“To deliberately alter the system by geoengineering is, therefore, quite a risky approach.”
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LOL! A masterful piece of under-statement, Sir.
“Complete and utter idiocy” would be my description.
Any of these so called ‘geoengineering, fixes prove that those suggesting such have seen too many Sci Fi films, such as Alien for example and what bother those people got into.
They need to ‘get real’ because natural processes are far more powerful than man’s ability to fix anything, by many orders of magnitude.
The law of unintended consequences applies in the most dangerous of situations. Trying to “engineer” a dimly understood and chaotic climate system is the ultimate lunacy.
It could be a good way to control or create rain, though.
Richard Black is a misinformed idealist fanatic, who will print any and all propaganda, which furthers his dangerous beliefs. He has been extremely busy lately, publishing every AGW claim he can get his hands on. If an article has his name on it… It can be safely dismissed. GK
You use to be able to write off something like this as being just another cockamamie research proposal dreamed up in order to get funding. But, with the current crop of Simonian (as in Herbert) “true believers” now running government and the NGOs, it’s scary… someone just might actually try to implement it.
The ego’s of these maniacs takes some beating, we have had no warming for 13 years and they carry on as if nothing had happened.
When we look back at some of the dreadful things human beings did to each other in centuries past and things such as King Canute commanding the sea to stop we either shake our heads in disbelief or laugh.
What is going on in the area of climate “science” is beyond just about anything we have seen…and this is happening when we have a “free press” allegedly full of very intelligent people.
It is not that this guy wishes to solve a problem it is the fact he believes we have a problem in the first place that gets me.
Anyone else reminded of the old lady who swallowed a fly?
I also love the picture. That craft would turn turtle in anything over a fresh breeze.
As the Black article already ascribed to Piers Foster “[the injected drop] won’t stay that size for long – it will spread out …” – particularly when the drops are first to be projected (fired) at least 5,000 feet upwards, from sea level.
And, if done on anything like a geological scale, how are coastal landowner’s private law nuisance claims for loss of amenity/sunlight to be dealt with? This would be simple in the UK, but in the US would the commerce clause give jurisdiction to the US government?
“In an era when many climate scientists are frustrated by slow progress in reducing greenhouse gas emissions, cloud whitening has sometimes been held up as an example of a technology that could make a real difference, at least to “buy time”.
What utterly meaningless drivel. Those poor ‘many’ climate scientists. All frustrated and stuff. And while “sometimes” held up as a solution, equally so, llama-loads of other wacky and pointless ‘solutions’ troop through the endless media stupor to be recycled once again, because they “could” make a real difference. Buy time? For whom or what? Let the insanity continue!
Before rejecting marine clouds, please consider the benefits of humidifying an onshore wind with vertical-axis spray turbines, configured like Hula-Hoops:
http://www.portaleso.com/portaleso/modules/Noticias/Almacen/Maquinacapazdecrearnubesdelluvia30-03-2004-19-47-23/shs_rain_paper_Feb.pdf
This would greatly increase the likelihood of rain on land.
Not for geoengineering, but for droughts, the cure of which is humidification of the air going to the drought-striken region.
Why geoengineering? There is no climate catastrophe approaching that would require it. As a matter of fact, there is no anthropogenic global warming, that famous AGW we are constantly propagandized about. How do I know this you may ask. I know this from satellite temperature measurements that have been available for 31 years and yet are totally ignored by NASA, NOAA, and the Met Office. They show the eighties and the nineties as a period of rising temperatures called the late twentieth century warming. That is the warming that Hansen testified about. Satellites see it as a period of oscillation about a fixed mean, up and down by half a degree for twenty years. There were five temperature peaks in this period and they correspond to El Nino events in the Pacific. And the low points between them designate intervening La Ninas. If you compare the satellite curve with say HadCRUT3 from the Met Office at high resolution you see that these same El Nino peaks are also present in this curve. The first four even have the same height. But where they differ is in the valleys in between the peaks. These have been made shallow and this gives their curve an upward slope they call warming. NASA is similar but NOAA goes a step further and completely eliminates all La Nina valleys. After 1998 there was a short spurt of warming that raised the global temperature by a third of a degree and then stopped in 2002. This was the only real warming within the last 31 years but all three temperature custodians fake a warming in the twenty-first century that did not happen. GISSTEMP even goes so far as to designate 2005 as warmer than the super El Nino of 1998 which is absurd. The twenty-first century began as a warm temperature plateau which ended with the 2008 La Nina cooling. That signified resumption of ENSO oscillations the super El Nino had interrupted. With ENSO in control we can now expect an alternation of warm El Ninos and cool La Ninas but none of the warming that IPCC computers are still spewing out. For more information read “What Warming?“ available on Amazon.com.
Only in the minds of eco-loons can you fix humans altering the planet’s atmosphere by altering the planet’s atmosphere. These are same people that said Freon (R-22) was bad, but Puron (R-410A) is good. Oh, but Puron is a much more potent greenhouse gas. There is no logic or reason, just agenda.
Crazy, just crazy. As an Englishman I am astounded that we in the UK are still wandering around looking at our navels on this subject. I recently wrote to my MP on the subject of the IPCC nonsense, he wrote back a rather nice letter saying “tell as many people as you are able”. Good news , all MPs are NOT believers.
Anything is possible says: April 15, 2011 at 7:58 am
John Marshall says: April 15, 2011 at 8:08 am
I think you said all that need be said about this.
The government of Iran, being advocates of Geoengineering and true believers in Global Warming, have been working hard at developing methods to help lessen the effects using Nuclear Devices, exploded in the atsmophere. I believe their political and spiritual leaders have assisted their scientific community in determining the position in which the greatest effect in the “Climate” can be attained. I’m sure that if Iran can reach their goals, others in the region will assist in similar endevors.
In short, any attempt at geoengineering could be best describeds as..short sighted? No, stupid works much better.
It’s still winter here, for goodness sake. We got 5 inches of snow yesterday, on top of the foot of snow we still had, and temperatures are below zero C. Despite all of this global warming, our region’s plant hardiness has never changed from a zone 2. This means we are limited in the fruits and vegetables (perennials, trees, etc) we can grow. Our growing season does not begin until the end of May, with frost as early as late August. We do not want more winter here!
These people need to get a reality check and policy makers need to stand up to these scientists, who are so eager to apply their theories without any real understanding of how they work, let alone how the climate system works to begin with. Should their experiments result in our hardiness zone extending down south, across Canada and into the US, there will be very real problems supplying the population with food.
COLOUR THEM SHAMELESS
Dr. Pielke Snr. writes:
‘Such a static view of the climate is not supported by observations (e.g. see) yet this simplistic view persists as illustrated by the 2007 IPCC, and, more specifically by the BBC news article.’
Er….Dr. Pielke….this article is by Richard Black. Richard Black. You must know this guy. No? Ok, Ok, let me try to describe him. He is basically the BBC’s version of Louise Gray. You remember, the hilarious Daily Telegraph who trots out any old piece of eco claptrap as long as it is on the right sort of Press release headed paper? That’s the girl. Well, Richard Black is roughly the equivalent.
Both are able to set intelligent lifeforms giggling uncontrollably at their ‘informed’ journalism. Black has some excuse as the BBC has forbidden its editorial staff to deal even-handedly with AGW skeptic material. The Daily Telegraph provides some balance to Gray’s childlike writing by allowing James Delingpole to write a truly informed blog on the same website.
Gray. Black. Green. What exactly IS the colour of shameless?
These would-be Geoengineers are obviously deranged. Maybe they should work on saving their own minds first?
Interstellar Bill says:
April 15, 2011 at 8:50 am
Before rejecting marine clouds, please consider the benefits of humidifying an onshore wind with vertical-axis spray turbines, configured like Hula-Hoops:
Line from the abstract:
“Calculations show that some remediation may be possible using a mechanism that can be controlled to suit local needs”
Paraphrased: [Models] show that some [expensive twiddling] [may, could, might] be possible using a [conjecture] that can (!!) be controlled to suit local needs [while costing billions].
I do hope that /sarc was intended…? What about all the sea salt that becomes airborne along with the sea mist? How many bloody Hula-hoop-heaving, topheavy, fuel-guzzling fog-boats will it take? These desert areas, were they ever burgeoning agricultural wonders?
Reminds me of a Star Trek movie, when the alien space ship vaporized earth’s oceans and Captain Kirk had to go back in time to bring the whales forward in time to save the earth. Let’s just invent a time machine so us humans can go back in time to save ourselves from climate change. Our you crazy as Doctor McCoy said when Kirk made the proposal.
These people are crazy, I rather think in another 500 years that we humans can go and find a new planet to ravage. I don’t think I’d rather go back in time 500 years, maybe forward in time 500 years when all the BS is over.
I’m too old for this………
I’ve always believed that a large majority of people are either crooked liars, or total morons…..
….I don’t need proof
It looks to me that with very little modification it could be made to play Calliope music at the same time. This would allow their circus to accompany themselves.
People proposing to geoengineer the climatic system are INSANE. Stop treating them as if they are normal human beings, they aren’t, they are dangerous fools ! Lock them up in the funny farm. I’m tired of being subjected to their mindless pseudo-intellectual drivel.