Solar warming and ocean equilibrium, Part 3: Solanki and Schuessler respond

PhotobucketGuest post by Alec Rawls

Solar physicist Sami Solanki and his colleagues at Germany’s Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research helped pioneer the use of cosmogenic isotopes from ice cores to create a proxy record for solar activity going back hundreds and thousands of years. Together with a group led by Ilya Usoskin at University of Oulu in Finland, Solanki describes “grand maximum” levels of solar activity from 1920 to 2000, with the sun being especially active since the 1940’s.

Comparing this solar record to temperature, these scientists find a strong correlation between solar activity and temperature persisting until quite recently. For example, over the period of the instrumental temperature record, a 2004 paper by Solanki and Krivova finds that the correlation is quite close, “however”:

However, it is also clear that since about 1980, while the total solar radiation, its ultraviolet component, and the cosmic ray intensity all exhibit the 11-year solar periodicity, there has otherwise been no significant increase in their values. In contrast, the Earth has warmed up considerably within this time period. This means that the Sun is not the cause of the present global warming.

But does this conclusion follow? Their own evidence says that until 1980 the dominant driver of climate was solar activity (and their longer-term temperature-proxy comparisons say the same thing). So how can they assert that two decades of the highest solar activity on record can’t be the cause of concurrent warming?

I suggested to Solanki and his colleagues that they must be implicitly assuming that by 1980 ocean temperatures had already equilibrated to whatever forcing effect the high level of solar activity was having. Otherwise warming would continue until equilibrium had been reached. Yet equilibration is never mentioned in any of their analyses.

Many thanks to Sami Solani and Manfred Schuessler for their important reply, finally making the implicit explicit. Here is the main part of their answer:

Dear Mr. Rawls,

You have raised an interesting question. Correlations between solar activity indices and climate assume that there is a constant lag between solar and climate variability (this is implicit in the nature of correlations). In some cases authors even implicitely or explicitely assume that this lag is zero, i.e. that the relationship is instantaneous. If we consider the period of time up to ca. 1970, then this lag lies roughly between 0 and 12 years (e.g., Solanki and Krivova 2003). Newer reconstructions, such as that of Krivova et al. (2007) tend to favour the lower lag. If we consider the period since 1970 alone, then the solar irradiance hasn’t shown an increasing trend, but rather a decreasing one, in contrast to global temperature, which has increased substantially. If this increase is due to the hypothetical influence of the oceans, as you suggest, then of course these short lag times would not be realistic. This, however, would mean that the relatively good correlation between solar and climate variability prior to 1970 would also have to be discarded as due to chance and would cease to be of relevance. Lags cannot be changed at will, certainly not without a good physical reason, i.e. one based on computations, that at least approximately model the Earth system’s behaviour.

To clarify, I did not quite suggest that post-1970 warming might be due to the influence of the oceans. I suggested that it could be due to the sun. The hypothesis isn’t that the oceans were giving up stored heat content but that they were continuing to absorb solar-driven heat. (Under the GCR-cloud theory, high solar wind blows the clouds away, increasing the amount of solar shortwave that pours into the oceans.)

Since Solanki and Schuessler see this slow-ocean-equilibration story as incompatible with short correlation lags, they are clearly identifying short lags with rapid equilibration. The question is whether this identification makes sense. If the equilibration process is not rapid, does it really mean that the short correlation lag between solar activity and temperature that these folks discovered must be mere chance? A simple counter-example shows the answer to be no.

Day vs. season

If you map the diurnal correlation between the strength of the sun’s rays on your back porch and temperature in the shade, you will find that the maximum correlation occurs with only a few hours lag. At noon, sun strength is no longer increasing, while the rate of temperature increase is near its maximum, with temperatures continuing to rise until sometime mid-afternoon.

So you find this very strong and rapid correlation between sunlight and backyard temperature. You’ve been plotting it for a few months, and now it’s June. There is no significant change day by day in the strength of the sun’s rays, or their duration, yet somehow peak backyard temperatures keep going up. The end of June is hotter than the beginning of June. Do you say that this can’t be explained by the sun because solar forcing has not been rising and you know that the temperature response to the sun is only a few hours?

This is exactly what Solanki et al. are doing. Instead of day vs. season they are finding temperature signals within the solar cycle and from one solar cycle to the next and assuming that these same response times apply to longer term changes in solar activity. But climate systems don’t just respond on one time scale.

This is what came out of the previous post, where Mike Lockwood cited the rapid response time that was estimated by Stephen Schwartz on the assumption that the planet can be represented by the simplest possible energy balance model with only one heat sink. Make the model one step more realistic by giving it two heat sinks, so that the sun and the atmosphere do not warm the entire ocean at once, but warm an upper layer which in turn, over time, transfers heat to a deeper ocean layer, and everything changes. Time to equilibrium from a step-up in forcing could be centuries, but as Daniel Kirk-Davidoff’s analysis of the two heat-sink model shows, a correlation study that does not span several times the period of any long term fluctuation in forcing will only pick up the relatively rapid response time of the upper ocean layer, revealing next to nothing about time-to-equilibrium for the full climate system.

The one thing we can say from the observed rapid temperature response to short term fluctuations in solar activity is that solar activity clearly does drive temperature. Add that the sun does not warm the ocean all at once—that the deeper ocean is warmed over time by the upper ocean as the two heat-sink model describes—and we can expect that the demonstrated warming effect of solar activity will cause long-period deeper ocean warming when there is a longer period rise in solar activity.

That is, the short time-lag correlation actually implies that longer period responses should also be taking place, once the most obvious steps to model realism are incorporated. Thus no, the finding of a short correlation lag does not contradict a solar explanation for late 20th century warming but supports it, just as the suns’ warming of the day supports a solar explanation for seasonal change.

This is why it is so important that widespread but unstated assumptions of rapid equilibration be made explicit. The assumption does not stand up to scrutiny, yet it has been allowed to escape scrutiny even as it does the heavy lifting in many scientists’ dismissal of a solar explanation for late 20th century warming. So again, many thanks to Doctors Solanki and Schuessler for making this assumption explicit.

GCM equilibration time

Here is the rest of the Solanki-Schuessler response:

You can rightly argue that a simple linear analysis, such as that carried out by Solanki and Krivova 2003, does not fully reflect the complex behaviour of the Earth system. Indeed, such an analysis does not replace introducing the solar irradiance record into a GCM (General Circulation Model), which includes the coupling between the oceans and the atmosphere, and computing the influence of the Sun’s behaviour. Such studies have not, to our knowledge, reached conclusions that differ significantly from those reached by the simple correlation analysis. If anything, they tend to indicate that the influence of the Sun is even smaller than the correlation studies suggest. The attached review paper gives a good and up-to-date overview of the state of research on Sun-climate relations. Figs. 27 and 28 (pp. 36 and 37) of this paper show that GCM models support the assumption of a short time lag, i.e., quasi-instantaneous reaction of the global temperatures on changes in forcing (as is well known to be the case for major volcanic eruptions, for instance). We think that this is due to the fact that only the mixed layer of the oceans is involved in climate variations due to short-term (decadal to centennial) variations of the forcing, so that the global equilibrium time of the oceans is irrelevant – but you may want to contact a climatologist if you wish to obtain more detailed information.

We hope to have been of help.

Sincerely yours,

Sami Solanki and Manfred Schuessler

What I have been able to glean about equilibration time in the IPCC GCMs is rather different from what Solanki and Schuessler assert. This came up in Part 2, where Schwartz’ short estimated time constant implied a low climate sensitivity, prompting a vigorous response from Gavin Schmidt and other “consensus” GCM compilers. Foster, Schmidt et al. said that in contrast to Schwartz’ 4-6 year time constant, the AR4 model “takes a number of decades to equilibrate after a change in external forcing.”

In a later RealClimate post, Schmidt suggests that:

Oceans have such a large heat capacity that it takes decades to hundreds of years for them to equilibrate to a new forcing.

The review paper that Solanki and Schuessler cite is Solar Influences on Climate, by Gray et al. 2010. S&S cite Gray’s Figures 27 and 28 as support for quasi-instantaneous temperature adjustment in response to a change in forcing, but it is hard to see the connection. The figures are from AR4 and just show the amount of recent warming that is attributed to CO2 in the AR4 models. That would be all of it, post 1955:

Photobucket

Figure 27 [Gray]. Global mean temperature anomalies, as observed (black line) and as modelled by thirteen climate models when the simulations include (a) both anthropogenic and natural forcings and (b) natural forcings only. The multi-model ensemble mean is shown in grey, and individual simulations are shown in colour, with curves of the same colour indicating different ensemble members for the same model.

Are S&S interpreting Figure 27a as showing a fit between forcings and temperature (in which case the close fit to observed temperatures would indeed indicate a rapid response to forcing)? But this isn’t what the graph shows at all. It compares observed temperatures to the temperatures that the AR4 model predicts in response to 20th century forcings. Equilibration speed (or lapse time) is one of the variables that modelers tweak to achieve a fit between predicted and actual temperatures.

It is not surprising that modelers manage to achieve a reasonably close fit over their calibration period (the 20th century). Every detail of their very complex model is tailored to achieve this. They presumably could achieve this level of fit in many ways. The fact that they do achieve it doesn’t say anything about how they achieve it. The equilibration speed could be anything.

Of course we do know a few fun facts about how the AR4 models are fit to the data. In particular, we know that the IPCC engages in blatant question begging by including only one solar variable in its AR4 models: Total Solar Irradiance, which is parameterized by the IPCC as having 1/14 the warming effect of CO2 (0.12 vs 1.66 W/m2).

Gray’s Figure 27 makes the impact of this assumption graphic. When total solar effects are fixed on the input side of the model to have 1/14th the warming power of CO2, the model output “shows” CO2 to be the dominant climate driver. It’s called “garbage in, garbage out.”

Data vs. assumption

The question is why Solanki and Schuessler are satisfied with the IPCC’s TSI-only characterization of solar effects when their own data screams out so strongly against it. They look at how little solar effect on climate is built into the AR4 model and say:

If anything [these models] tend to indicate that the influence of the Sun is even smaller than the correlation studies suggest.

The discrepancy between their correlation studies and the AR4 model can be seen in the glaring difference between 1955-1980 in Figure 27 above and in Figure 2b from Solanki and Krivova:

Photobucket

The black line is instrumental temperature. Dotted lines are inverted GCR (reconstructed, and as measured in Climax Colorado since 1953). Close correlation between solar activity and temperature continues to 1980.

Henrik Svensmark finds a still longer correlation. After controlling for PDO, he finds that the short term correlation between solar activity and temperature continues to the present day:

Photobucket

FIG. 2 [Svensmark]: … The upper panel shows observations of temperatures (blue) and cosmic rays (red). The lower panel shows the match achieved by removing El Nino, the North Atlantic Oscillation, volcanic aerosols, and also a linear trend (0.14 ± 0.4 K/Decade).

There is no way that the high degree of short term correlation between solar activity and temperature observed by Solanki and Schuessler pre-1980 can be explained by the tiny variations in Total Solar Insolation (about a tenth of a percent over the solar cycle). Yet when they see how the IPCC’s TSI-only model under-predicts their own observations, they don’t question the IPCC’s fixing of total solar effects at 1/14th the strength of CO2, but count this garbage-in model as evidence against their own data. That’s not right guys. Data is supposed to trump theory/assumption. That’s the definition of the scientific method.

Solanki, Schuessler and their colleagues have done some of the most important climate research of the last decade, creating several of the paleo-reconstructions of solar activity that make extended solar-climate studies possible. Unfortunately, they are misinterpreting the correlation between solar activity and temperature. Short correlation lags do not imply rapid equilibration. They just reflect the rapid temperature response of the upper ocean layer, leaving the equilibration speed of deeper ocean layers an open question. Thus short correlation lags provide no grounds for dismissing a solar explanation for late 20th century warming. Scientists who have been presuming otherwise should be willing to reconsider.

0 0 votes
Article Rating

Discover more from Watts Up With That?

Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.

151 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
John Finn
April 7, 2011 12:44 pm

Alec Rawls says:
April 7, 2011 at 11:33 am
Steve from Rockwood and John Finn both note how Svensmark’s fitting of solar activity to temperature involves removing the trend. I take this as an indication that the high solar activity over the period he is looking at (from the late 50s to the present) caused an upwards temperature trend. If the temperature trend were not taken out, the ups and downs of the solar record would fall progressively below the ups and downs of the temperature record.

Right. The temperature trend and GCR trend (zero) have been diverging – for 50 odd years. I could just about accept your hypothesis if there had been some divergence early on followed by a decrease in the later years. But the opposite happened. Also, in one of their replies, Solanki and Schuessler, say

If this increase is due to the hypothetical influence of the oceans, as you suggest, then of course these short lag times would not be realistic. This, however, would mean that the relatively good correlation between solar and climate variability prior to 1970 would also have to be discarded as due to chance and would cease to be of relevance.


This is a point I’ve tried to make before. Either there is a close (and relatively immediate) correlation or there isn’t. You can’t use the correlation when it suits and then introduce lags when it doesn’t. Also, Leif Svalgaard in another post says

Solar activity in the mid 1800s and late 1700s was just as high. There is no “modern grand maximum”.


The recent high activity is not unusual. Why should things be different in the late 20th century.

April 7, 2011 12:52 pm

Roy Clark says:
April 7, 2011 at 12:35 pm
The devil is in the details.
And the details say that during the latter half of the 1700s, solar activity was comparable to that of the later part of the 1900s, yet temperatures were very different.

lgl
April 7, 2011 1:00 pm

Leif
What other 80 year period shows as high average level as 1930-2010?

April 7, 2011 1:22 pm

Leif,
I am not sure what is implied by arguing there is no grand maximum and its relation to climate. As you said “Solar activity in the mid 1800s and late 1700s was just as high. There is no “modern grand maximum””
However from your reconstructed peaks ( It wasn’t clear from your poster, but I assume your reconstructions is best represented by the Rz number), your mid 1800’s peaks do coincide with a time most would suggest is the end to the Little Ice Age and that makes sense. I think too often people think of the LIA as a prolonged cold snap when it was actually a cooler period that was also punctuated with warmings that coincide with the general time periods you suggest, and the coldest of all is 1645-1710 coinciding with the Maunder minimum followed a warming from 1710-40. So my impression is without evoking a grand maximum there is still a good climate correlation with sunspots but it is often modified by ocean regimes that are oscillating between energy absorbing vs heat venting. I always was troubled that while most biological and ice activity was peaking in the 1940’s the sunspots peaked more than a decade later. I suggest that the difference is caused because during a negative PDO, the ocean is in a heat absorbing mode, as winds concentrate the warm pool allowing cooler upwelled waters to absorb more insolation, so that in the 60’s the higher solar component is masked. However after the 70’s with a positive PDO, with a dispersed warm pool and incoming insolation leads to rapid evaporation , the oceans are in a venting mode accentuating the high solar activity.
Where your sunspot reconstruction intrigues me is the high sunspots around 1740-60 when there are numerous records of advancing glaciers. However if the PDO was in a heat absorbing mode along with being preconditioned by cooler oceans from the Maunder minimum, it could explain the perceived solar cold snap paradox. That all being said I suspect the arguments for a recent grand solar maximum are attempts to reconcile the a paradox of advancing late 1700 glaciers by supposing much lower sunspots during that time.

lgl
April 7, 2011 1:40 pm

There are a lot of different lags. When large heat capacity is involved (ocean) the response lags 1/4 period of the driving cycle (driver being the derivative of the response), so looking at the diurnal cycle temperature peaks 24/4 hours after the solar peak. The last long solar cycle is 80 years, so SST peaks 20 years after solar peak, and then there is the ENSO ‘modulation’ of course. http://virakkraft.com/sst-solar.png

Crispin in Waterloo
April 7, 2011 1:49 pm

Dave Springer says:
April 7, 2011 at 6:41 am
Basically we can equate this to a pot of water sitting on the stove with a low flame under it. The flame, after being constant for some time, will heat the water just so much and no more. When the water temperature is neither rising nor falling it’s in equilibrium. Now we turn the flame up a little bit. The water won’t instantly reach a new equilibrium temperature. Depending on how big the pot is and how much we turned up the flame it’ll take some time to reach a new equilibrium point.
++++++++
There is an additional way to look at this. If you measure the SURFACE temperature of the underside of the pot, you will get some value for the low heat equilibrium temperature. Turn up the heat and the surface temperature rises very quickly, reaching equilibrium after a few minutes at the most.
The whole pot of course takes much longer to change temperature, the water near the pot getting warmer faster than the centre until a toroidial thermo-syphon takes over to equalise it.
This is a clear example of two different lag times responding to a single change in input power: the surface temperature of the pot changes rapidly and the water temperature changes slowly, and in ‘surface’ positions before ‘deep’ positons.
When cooling (when the power is reduced) the thermo-induced circulation in the pot continues, resulting in a rapid change in heat far beyond what was initially found on the way up, and there is ‘extra’ warming of the inside surface of the bottom of the pot. There is water inertia involved as well as heat transfer to the lid (akin to the floor of the ocean, in this example). Because of these factors, if you measure the temperature of the bottom of the pot you will see a delay in cooling in the ‘rapid response’ element and an accelerated cooling in the ‘slow response’ element.
It seems we are in exactly this position now: dropping solar input, stable to lowering temperatures, maintained extra-long by the heated ocean which is cooling faster than the change in TSI. Perhaps an ice age begins when the ocean inertia(s) over-cools the oceans following a rapid drop in EUV/UV/TSI power.

April 7, 2011 1:51 pm

lgl says:
April 7, 2011 at 1:00 pm
What other 80 year period shows as high average level as 1930-2010?
Since 1945 the sunspot number has been 20% too high due to calibration problems.
Jim Steele says:
April 7, 2011 at 1:22 pm
I am not sure what is implied by arguing there is no grand maximum and its relation to climate.
what is implied is that the climate now should be the same as just after the 1780s and 1870s, which it isn’t.

April 7, 2011 1:54 pm

lgl says:
April 7, 2011 at 1:40 pm
There are a lot of different lags.
Put in enough lags [of varying length and reasons] you can explain anything [actually nothing at all]. To have value, the lags must be specified and explained beforehand.

April 7, 2011 2:21 pm

Leif Svalgaard says: what is implied is that the climate now should be the same as just after the 1780s and 1870s, which it isn’t.
Yes but only if your analysis of solar input is not coupled to oceanic processes and heat re-distribution, and the pre-conditioning of the LIA maximum 1650-1700.

Magnus
April 7, 2011 2:29 pm

We get it, the models can predict the past with impeccable accuracy. But do we need them? Is there a fear of reterograde global temperature amnesia?

Magnus
April 7, 2011 2:33 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
what is implied is that the climate now should be the same as just after the 1780s and 1870s, which it isn’t.
————————
What the climate ‘should be’? Seriously?

April 7, 2011 2:43 pm

Well, looks like the ‘solar devotees’ are close, but never there. I do not habitually agree with the ‘Helios Artis Magnus’, but in this case, some time ago I decided that ‘the sun drives but does not modulate’ either local or ‘so called global’ temperatures, beyond to what is due to the forms of the Earth’s rotation and revolution.
It is time to abandon ideas that can’t be proved, it is the time for the fresh idea with data, power, correlation and proven and daily observed and mapped mechanism!
Only available here http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/CET-NAP.htm

kramer
April 7, 2011 3:03 pm

Leif says “And the details say that during the latter half of the 1700s, solar activity was comparable to that of the later part of the 1900s, yet temperatures were very different.
I don’t know how you can say that. The people back then counting sunspots counted far fewer of them.

April 7, 2011 3:08 pm

Jim Steele says:
April 7, 2011 at 2:21 pm
Yes but only if your analysis of solar input is not coupled to oceanic processes and heat re-distribution, and the pre-conditioning of the LIA maximum 1650-1700.
If you can quantify that, model it, and explain the process, we can continue.
Magnus says:
April 7, 2011 at 2:33 pm
“what is implied is that the climate now should be the same as just after the 1780s and 1870s, which it isn’t.”
What the climate ‘should be’? Seriously?

Under the assumption that the Sun is a the MAJOR driver, similar solar conditions over decades should produce similar effect. Now, if the sun is just a small player, then all kinds of other things come into play (oceans, preconditioning a la Steele, what have you), but that is not the issue.

April 7, 2011 3:12 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
what is implied is that the climate now should be the same as just after the 1780s and 1870s, which it isn’t.
You might find it surprising to also to check out a community data base for flowering times throughout England extended back to 1750 in the paper by Amano 2010 “A 250-year index of first flowering dates and its response to temperature changes”
There are 2 periods with flowering times earlier than the present and they are centered about 1770 and 1870.

April 7, 2011 3:36 pm

kramer says:
April 7, 2011 at 3:03 pm
I don’t know how you can say that. The people back then counting sunspots counted far fewer of them.
Perhaps not: http://www.leif.org/research/SIDC-Seminar-14-Sept.pdf
http://www.leif.org/research/SIDC-Seminar-12-Jan.pdf
http://www.leif.org/research/SOHO23.pdf
Jim Steele says:
April 7, 2011 at 3:12 pm
There are 2 periods with flowering times earlier than the present and they are centered about 1770 and 1870.
Compare with Central England Temperatures: http://www.leif.org/research/CET2.png

April 7, 2011 4:09 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
Compare with Central England Temperatures: http://www.leif.org/research/CET2.png
I am curious what you think about just what the CET says. Looking at the graph I can’t help but notice when the CET started incorporating minimum temperatures in ~1878. Most of the instrumental trends have been biased by the averaging with minimum temperatures, and looking a lot of temperature data I see big differences in trends between max and min. I would suggest max temperatures better reflect solar inputs, especially because convective mixing makes the max a better sample.

ferd berple
April 7, 2011 4:25 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
And the details say that during the latter half of the 1700s, solar activity was comparable to that of the later part of the 1900s, yet temperatures were very different.
Exactly Leif. Look at this graph of CET
http://i49.tinypic.com/rc93fa.jpg
Notice that the rate of change in temperature in Central England in 1700 was equally as great as the rate of change in 1900. Solar activity doesn’t determine the absolute temperature of the atmosphere, it determines the rate of change of temperature.
Thus, if the earth is cold, and solar activity goes up, the temperature will go up, but overall the temperature will still be low because it started low. Which is what happened in 1700. Then in 1900 the solar activity again went up but this time the earth was starting from a warmer temperature so it ended up higher.
Don’t look at absolute temperatures for a correlation with solar activity, because that assumes that the earth must always start warming from the same temperature, which is clearly untrue. Only look at the rate of change in temperature for a correlation with solar activity, because that is the only effect a change in solar activity can have.

April 7, 2011 5:42 pm

ferd berple says:
April 7, 2011 at 4:25 pm
Solar activity doesn’t determine the absolute temperature of the atmosphere, it determines the rate of change of temperature.
Now we are on this note. The traditional view is the ‘obvious’ correlation between solar activity and temperature. When that begins to falter, we change the tune; even using words as ‘Exactly’ as if this was understood all along.
Alec Rawls says:
April 7, 2011 at 4:35 pm
then in the 1700s these deeper layers would have been sucking the heat out of the warmed up upper layer, moderating its warming. By the time we get to the second half of the 20th century, our hypothetical solar warming would have brought the temperature of deeper ocean layers up substantially
You assume that when solar activity is rising, heat is being ‘sucked’ up without being lost when solar activity is declining. If every upturn of solar activity is followed by an equal downturn, one would expect temps to do the same. I smell some desperation here.

April 7, 2011 5:52 pm

Ken Hall says on April 7, 2011 at 8:19 am:
“The claim that the sun was especially active since the 1940′s causing warming, but the sun had nothing to do with warming after 1980, simply does not make sense. The earth cooled from the 1940s to the late 1970s, then warmed to 1998 …”
This makes me mad. You are wrong, Ken, about the earth warming from the late seventies to 1998. This warming did not happen and temperature curves showing it are cooked. As in falsified. Download satellite temperature curves if you don’t believe me, or better yet, read my book that shows them all. You did not read my post carefully enough because I explained how these fake temperature curves were constructed. To show warming in the eighties and nineties is extremely important to the global warming establishment because Hansen’s testimony to the Senate in 1988 falls right in the middle of this period. Since the warming did not happen Hansen lied about warming and the extrapolated warming curves he showed to the Senate are totally wrong. And it is these warming curves or “scenarios” upon which the global warming argument was built by the IPCC that was established that same year. Ask yourself: why is it that none of these three organizations I mentioned either use or mention satellite measurements of temperatures that have been available for the last 31 years? Muller likewise who just testified to Congress did not even mention satellites and showed the same three curves we are talking about. Satellite measurements cover both hemispheres and the ocean uniformly which cannot be said of any other temperature source, and are more accurate. The collusion that produced the imaginary warming of the eighties and nineties started in the late seventies and is still going on. This is far worse than anything that Climategate has revealed. Compared to this long term climate falsification Climategate is only the tip of the iceberg. The BEST group that Muller is connected with is supposed to verify the accuracy of raw climate data. They are doing no such thing – they are working with data that have already been falsified and the originals thrown out as Phil Jones admitted. Going after the urban heat island correction will tell you nothing about what the original data were like. Hansen has a new way of doing that correction anyway by using satellite night light intensity measurements and I actually believe that it will be better than looking at billions of thermometer readings. But it is an activity that does not get anywhere near the root of the problem which is this: how did these fake warming curves get started in the late seventies, who was responsible for planning it, and how was it coordinated? It is impossible to get any information about this from Google who has spent a hundred million dollars supporting climate research groups and is covering up any information unfavorable to the global warming cause. Compare this to the paltry ten million or so that ExxonMobile has given to a few foundations and anti-warmist groups. Based on my examination of these warming curves I have no doubt that they are cooked. They should simply be discarded and replaced by satellite temperature measurements which these people so far have been unable to fix

April 7, 2011 6:00 pm

Arno Arrak says:
April 7, 2011 at 7:59 am

Somewhat divergent from the main discussion here, but has this argument from Arno Arrak been discussed on this board? If what he says is true, that the satellite temperature record (when cyclic events and the ‘super El Nino’ of 1998 are taken into account) shows no late-20th-century warming, and that the land temperature records are therefore spurious, then the CAGW speculation can be simply laid to rest. Then the question of the way the sun affects the climate can be investigated free of the CO2 bugaboo and any need to adjust ‘lags’ to keep it in the picture.
/Mr Lynn

April 7, 2011 7:23 pm

Alec Rawls says:
April 7, 2011 at 7:14 pm
Where do I ever assume anything different? Where do the arguments I am making ever require anything different?
Say SSN mean over cycle goes up from 40 to 150 over several cycles, you assume a warming, let’s say for the sake of the argument 1 degree. Then I would expect a cooling of 1 degree if the SSN in the following same number of cycles goes down from 150 to 40. Agree? If so, your argument fails, because the climate would then just revert to what it was.

ferd berple
April 7, 2011 8:04 pm

Leif Svalgaard says:
And the details say that during the latter half of the 1700s, solar activity was comparable to that of the later part of the 1900s, yet temperatures were very different.
You have it right Leif. Look at this graph of CET
http://i49.tinypic.com/rc93fa.jpg
Notice that the rate of change in temperature in Central England in 1700 was equally as great as the rate of change in 1900. Solar activity doesn’t determine the absolute temperature of the atmosphere, it determines the rate of change of temperature.
The reason the temperature is different in 1700 versus 1900 is because they had different starting points. The mistake is in trying to correlate average temperature with solar activity, which is meaningless, because of the different initial conditions.
A change in solar activity can only affect the rate of temperature change. The average temperature depends on many other factors, such as accumulated heat in the oceans and polar ice caps, which occurs over many thousands of years.
This is the lesson of the pot of water on the stove. Like solar activity, turning up the stove makes the pot of water heat faster.
However, you cannot tell how high the stove is turned simply by measuring the water temperature. You might have started with cold water in one case, and warm water in the other, and even then it would depend on how long the stove had been turned on.