By Mike Smith
There is no question that the events in Japan are ongoing and serious. That said, I believe a lot of people are being misled by much of the news coverage. Take a look at these headlines from the Christian Science Monitor and from Channel News Asia, respectively,
and,
“Three Mile Island” and “Chernobyl” sounds scary, right?
Let me ask a couple of questions? How many were killed by the Three Mile Island incident?
100?
10,000?
100,000?
Answer here
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Craig,
The outer building destroyed in the H2 blast at Fukushima was not a containment building of the type you described. The domed concrete and steel containment building is still intact, as is the reactor vessel itself. The destroyed building housed equipment and facilities, but was no more well built than your average warehouse.
On another matter, the naval officer being interviewed in Cross Patch’s audio said the introduction of cooling water without boron into the reactor vessel could restart the nuclear reaction, even though the control rods were in place and intact. His explanation makes sense, but it’s the firat I’ve heard that the reactions could start spontaneously after being stopped by the control rods. Does anyone have any insight into this issue?
Chernobyl did not have a containment vessel. It was built with a graphite pile to maximize weapons grade Pu production. Anybody who compares it to the Japanese reactors needs to read up.
Pull My Finger-
I was only addressing the reason the back up generator replacements were not activated, nothing else, and apparently the source I was using from BraveNewClimate has been called into question above.
I know nothing of the thickness of the Fushiama containment vessel, I hope it’s adequate.
And Chernobyl is just FUBAR, needs no discussion here.
DanB said on March 14, 2011 at 8:48 am
… if true and relevant, since such problems shouldn’t be insurmountable by (Japanese) electricians, even if pressed for time. But anyway, this is quite old news. In the meantime, Tepco says, they had restored power to all reactors, one way or another. But they still don’t get the water in! And if should be true that they are trying to use fire pumps as a replacement for feed water pumps, you also know why any noted success was only temporary.
Henry@deanster
The interesting part is that all 5 or 6 big earth quakes occurred in the pacific.
Was it not the USA, France and UK who used the pacific as their testing ground for testing nuclear bombs?
There is of course no relationship between these tests and the earthquakes a few decades later?
To those who still believe nuclear power is safe. What we know is this much. Two nuclear plants in Japan have exploded and we are now finding out that over 10,000 Japanese are dead and billions of dollars in property has been irretrievably ruined. So put that in your flue pipe and smoke it!
Has anyone seen any official or credible statement on the number of curies released? From the contamination statements made, it does not seem significant. I suspect it is in the truckload of bananas quantity.
bbph above is right. The German media are currently mental. The focus has now almost completely moved away from the devastating earthquake and tsnuami, and is now on the reactors, and on nuclear power in general. Headlines read “nuclear disaster imminent”, “50 celebrities call for shutdown of all nuclear reactors”, “The end of the nuclear age” and so on. The Merkel government (who last year had extended the legal lifespan of the remaining reactors, partly undoing the shutdown decision of the previous red/green government), decided today to undo this extension and shutdown a couple of older reactors immediately. All this frenzy is based on nothing but the events with the Japanese reactors. There is no logic at all. If there was a trainwreck in Japan, would we use that as a reason to shut down our railways?
Is any of this happening in other countries? I’m reading the headlines here on CNN and BBC. I see they’re reporting on the reactor, but much more toned down, and without moving the focus away from the terrible earthquake. The German media are an order of magnitude more hysteric. And has any other government in the world made decisions concerning their own reactors based on the events in Japan?
Four of five water pumps have failed. Hopefully they can get replacements! However things are still secure.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/2011/03/14/ABk6rQV_story.html
Just curious Ryan, but do you actually believe that the deaths and damages you cite, while accurate as far as we know, are in any way related to the H2 explosions at the Fukushima power plant?
As usual the “US Experts” the media consults are the same suspects…
This person has an interesting take on the coverage…http://kenalovell.com/blog/2011/03/13/why-i-no-longer-watch-the-news/
Ryan, I truely hope that you’ve forgotten the sarc tag.
So far the reactors in Japan haven’t catastrophically failed despite having the worst earthquake the world has seen thrown at them. I think that is a good sign – not a bad sign. If is eventuates that the reactors can be saved from meltdown then there is great cause to celebrate. BTW, anyone talking about potential MUST assign probabilities, otherwise what they say is meaningless.
@Ryan Spear
The sad number of deaths are caused by an earthquake and a tsunami, and follow-up incidents, NONE to-date due to radiation exposure.
There have been explosions in the nuclear facility, but as far as it is known the core radiactive and protective elements seem safe so far.
Demagogy is out of place here
Tony says:
March 14, 2011 at 12:26 am
Just for the record, a different Tony. Guess I’m going to have to change my posting name.
“Volt Aire says:
March 14, 2011 at 1:14 am
Claiming 56 deaths for Chernobyl is total and utter BS. The total death toll from the incident is likely in the hundreds of thousands but it is lost in the “static” of the millions of deaths occurring yearly in the fallout area.”
Your ‘likely’ numbers are not based on reality. Incidentally, Chernobyl area is now home to the most diverse wildlife in all of Ukraine and plant life has consumed the old town.
Nuclear power plants are designed with incredible attention to detail by thousands of highly trained and educated professionals, following the strictest guidelines, using the finest materials and components available, with primary containments capable of withstanding the impact of a utility pole travelling axially at 300 mph, with redundancy upon redundancy upon redundancy. And yet the unthinkable happened at Fukashima, a site supposedly designed to resist earthquakes prevalent in the area. (Makes you wonder what seismic criteria was used in the design. Apparently, it wasn’t large enough).
The grid failed, the diesel generators failed, the batteries inevitably drained, and all hell broke loose. The Hydrogen Recombiners didn’t get power and as a result the two Secondary Containment Buildings were destroyed by the subsequent explosions from the buildup of hydrogen gas. The Primary Containments, though intact for the moment even with the explosions, are at the mercy of the fuel rods that are in meltdown with cores lacking sufficient coolant.
Since the 1979 Three Mile Island incident, not one new nuclear power plant has been built in the United States. And it looks like the prospects for a new one in the future are grim, indeed.
mkelly says:
March 14, 2011 at 8:18 am
Let’s see it was hydrogen explosions that blew the roof off both buildings so we should now eschew this as a possible fuel for vehicles. No fuel cell tech, possible explosions.
_______________________
Huh? Ever seen a fuel-air explosion? Then you should be very afraid of gasoline.
Hydrogen also needs an oxidizer to explode. LH2 should work nicely in vehicles, except the volume required is a little bit of a problem. One kg of H2 is the energy equivalent of 1 gal of gasoline. It’s just that 1 kg of LH2 takes 4 gal of volume. On the positive side, the mass is quite low for that volume. 1 gal of gasoline is about 2.7 kg. The Chevy Volt battery pack weighs 400 lbs (182 kg), and a Prius has a 68 kg battery pack. A key to development in LH2 usage is reducing the weight of the LH2 container. These goals are being achieved.
To roger. Thanks for the advice to “open my mind, exorcise my daemons, confront the realities that inevitably happen in life, and above all, learn.”
This post adopts a crude death count as some kind of proxy for suffering. This is unacceptable as it is disrespectful and rather callous.
What about parents, dependents and friends who lost a loved one – does the crude death count reflect that suffering?
UN: “About 4,000 cases of thyroid cancer, mainly in children and adolescents at the time of the accident, have resulted from the accident’s contamination and at least nine children died of thyroid cancer; however, the survival rate among such cancer victims, judging from experience in Belarus, has been almost 99 per cent. ”
UN: “The Forum report calls for continued close monitoring of workers who recovered from Acute Radiation Syndrome (ARS) and other highly exposed emergency personnel. The Report also calls for focused screening of children exposed to radioiodine for thyroid cancer and highly exposed clean-up workers for non-thyroid cancers. ”
For some, the (ahem) “realities of life” now include a medical history with cancer from a very early age. Or a life in the shadow of cancer and with the constant reminder of extra monitoring. Where does this show up in the death count?
UN: “Stress symptoms, depression, anxiety and medically unexplained physical symptoms have been reported, including self-perceived poor health. The designation of the affected population as “victims” rather than “survivors” has led them to perceive themselves as helpless, weak and lacking control over their future. This, in turn, has led either to over cautious behaviour and exaggerated health concerns, or to reckless conduct, such as consumption of mushrooms, berries and game from areas still designated as highly contaminated, overuse of alcohol and tobacco, and unprotected promiscuous sexual activity.”
None of that reflected in the above choice of death count.
What do we do roger – jump up out of our comfy armchairs and tell them to “exorcise their daemons”? I don’t think so.
This post does nothing for the generally good and well informed debate on WUWT. It is overly simplistic at best, and smacks of a callous and insensitive attitude to the full spectrum of suffering.
This is a site where we often call people to have the courage to admit when they get things wrong.
As you say: “above all, learn”
WUWT would be better without this post.
Thanks.
Well according to the San Jose Mercury News (front Page yet) “The second hydrogen explosion (in three days) “rocked….. sending a massive column of smoke into the air…..
Wow ! alchemy right in front of our very eyes. You take steam containing some small amount of Hydrogen, and you vent it to the atmosphere, where it doesn’t react with the nitorgen or the Argon in the atmosphere, but does react with the Oxygen in the air, so you get a massive hydrogen explosion; AND SMOKE !! how cool is that; organic materials conjured up out of a slightly radioactive steam cloud now containing even more steam.
Hey let that sucker blow every hour on the hour. We used to have hydrogen explosions in our building all the time, when a little hydrogen carrier gas leak got loose in the rafters, and eventually hit somebody’s light switch spark. The little hydrogen boomettes, weren’t the problem; the slight trace amounts of Phosphine or Arsine were the problem; but both of those were also pyrophoric, and went poof, and that time we did get smoke.
But smoke from a hydrogen explosion; that has to be a first.
The head line says “Japan in chaos as death’s soar.” Well yes I am sure that deaths are soaring, and I really feel for the Japanese people in this disaster; which certainly is chaotic; but I am sure there is more chaos in Washington DC and the Casa Blanca, than there is in Japan.
Let them keep venting the hydrogen laced steam and let that blow steam smoke rings till the cows come home. Hey I remember the very first hydrogen explosion, I ever saw, in a chemistry class, shortly after the teacher had finished electrolysing enough water to make a few ccs of a perfect stoichiometric mixture of Hydrogen and Oxygen, that he could light a match to.
With news like the san jose mercury news, we don’t need any fiction writers.
mkelly says: March 14, 2011 at 8:18 am
Let’s see it was hydrogen explosions that blew the roof off both buildings so we should now eschew this as a possible fuel for vehicles. No fuel cell tech, possible explosions.
—
You are exactly right. H2 is just like natural gas and can, and regularly does, level homes each year. In the future it would just take a car in a garage and one small leak. Nuclear power has never killed so many and it is from nuclear plants where our electricity should come from, especially if it is electricity that is going to power our cars. But, gasoline still remains the best without taking the food from our mouths as ethanol does.
“”””” Charles S. Opalek, PE says:
March 14, 2011 at 1:21 pm
Nuclear power plants are designed with incredible attention to detail by thousands of highly trained and educated professionals, following the strictest guidelines, using the finest materials and components available, with primary containments capable of withstanding the impact of a utility pole travelling axially at 300 mph, with redundancy upon redundancy upon redundancy. And yet the unthinkable happened at Fukashima, a site supposedly designed to resist earthquakes prevalent in the area. (Makes you wonder what seismic criteria was used in the design. Apparently, it wasn’t large enough). “””””
Well strange thing; all the stuff that fell down during the quake, and all the stuff that got washed away in the follow up tsunami; and in the midst of all that devastation; I didn’t see ANY nuclear power stations either falling down or getting washed away. It seems like they survived ok. Now in order to cool down a reactor core, you need to keep supplying power to the cooling system pumps. Not to worry; this is a nuclear POWER plant. Oops !! the worry warts put in a “precautionary principle” power shut down provision to ensure you wouldn’t have any power to keep cooling the core. How cool is that, the plant shut itself down just as it was designed to do, and it is still there and didn’t was a way. Maybe the worry warts, can form a bucket brigade, and keep supplying that thing with soem cooling water, till the temperature comes down a bit. Meanwhile let her blow a few smoke rings every now and then.
Charles S. Opalek, PE says:
“(Makes you wonder what seismic criteria was used in the design. Apparently, it wasn’t large enough).”
The tsunami is what is causing most of the problems.
The reactors shutdown after the earthquake. Cooling systems began removing residual heat. The earthquake also cutoff offsite power to the plant. Onsite emergency diesel generators started powering emergency cooling.
Later, the tsunami struck and took out the diesel generators. Batteries took over to provide power for cooling, but they ran out and additional backup generators could not be obtained quickly enough to prevent overheating of the core. Portable generators have been obtained to power pumps to inject seawater into the reactor and primary containment.
Ryan says:
March 14, 2011 at 10:57 am
To those who still believe nuclear power is safe. What we know is this much. Two nuclear plants in Japan have exploded and we are now finding out that over 10,000 Japanese are dead and billions of dollars in property has been irretrievably ruined. So put that in your flue pipe and smoke it!
————————————————————-
That’s a bald-faced lie Ryan.
There have been NO deaths to the populous from these reactors to date. The deaths were from the earthquake and seawater. And the entire plants did not explode as you imply. The roofs were blown off of the building with no damage to the reactors.
Retract your statement if you have any honesty in you. Immediately!
Ryan says:
March 14, 2011 at 10:57 am
“To those who still believe nuclear power is safe. What we know is this much. Two nuclear plants in Japan have exploded and we are now finding out that over 10,000 Japanese are dead and billions of dollars in property has been irretrievably ruined.”
My dear Mr Ryan,
During the course of three days Japanese nuclear facilities still stand erect, albeit a bit scathe, but still pretty proud, even though it’s been shacking in its foundations from a 9.0 earth quake, plus about one hundred earth quakes stronger ‘an 5, plus, not to forget one massive tsunami and several large tsunamis and some waves.
Is nuclear power safe?
Well yes my good sir, it delivers reliable electrical power whilst not down for maintenance, compared to say ugly wind driven propellers, although I concede you might be talking about if nuclear power plants are safe, right?
Compared to equivalent propeller crap, which comes down to about, (1×460 MW + 2×784 MW) divided by 2.5 MW, 812, which would only be of installed capacity so about 2500 (and I’m being nice.)
How many earth quakes would 2500 2.5MW wind mills be able to handle during three days? Can the structural integrity handle a 9? How about 25 earth quake of 6 in two days? How about with the combined forces of multiple tsunamis?
So, nuclear power plants in Japan, are apparently very safe, all things considered.