By Steven Goddard
Now that Arctic ice area is normal, Antarctic ice area is normal, sea level rise is failing to accelerate, temperatures are below all of Hansen’s scenarios, and the IPCC has proven itself to be untrustworthy – where can the CAGW religion go? Simple … Montana!
Glacier National Park Loses Two More Glaciers Due To Global Warming
According to Dan Fagre if the melting continues at its present rate then towards the end of another decade therewould be no more glaciers left in the Glacier Park. The glaciers of the park have been melting since 1850. The Glacier National Park at the beginning boasted of 150 glaciers of which 37 glaciers were eventually named.
You can’t currently get into much of Glacier National Park because there is too much snow, but if you could you would see something like this.

USPS Photo
Later in the year you would see this :

USPS Photo
Note the steep sided cliffs, formed by glaciers thousands of feet deep. Is it possible that glaciers thousands of feet thick melted since 1850, as the news stories claim? Of course not. The USGS has a good article titled “History of Glaciers in Glacier National Park” :
The history of glaciation within current Glacier National Park boundaries spans centuries of glacial growth and recession, carving the features we see today.
They suggest that the current glaciers mainly formed during the LIA (Little Ice Age)
These modest glaciers varied in size, tracking climatic changes, but did not grow to their Holocene maximum size until the end of the Little Ice Age (LIA) around A.D. 1850. While they may not have formed in their entirety during the LIA, their maximum perimeters can be documented through mapping of lateral and terminal moraines.
The size of the glaciers in 1850 was an anomaly during the Holocene :
Climate reconstructions representative of the Glacier National Park region extend back multiple centuries and show numerous long-duration drought and wet periods that influenced the mass balance of glaciers (Pederson et al. 2004). Of particular note was an 80-year period (~1770-1840) of cool, wet summers and above-average winter snowfall that led to a rapid growth of glaciers just prior to the end of the LIA. Thus, in the context of the entire Holocene, the size of glaciers at the end of the LIA was an anomaly of sorts. In fact, the large extent of ice coverage removed most of the evidence of earlier glacier positions by overriding terminal and lateral moraines.
The current glaciers started to recede long before the invention of the SUV.
Tree-ring based climate records and historic photographs indicate the initiation of frontal recession and ice mass thinning between A.D. 1860 and 1880.
“Dramatic recession” occurred between 1917 and 1941. This was before the invention of the Hummer and the Soccer Mom. Hansen wasn’t even born yet.
The coupling of hot, dry summers with substantial decreases in winter snowpack (~30% of normal) produced dramatic recession rates as high as 100 m/yr from A.D. 1917-1941 (Pederson et al. 2004). These multidecadal episodes have substantially impacted the mass balance of glaciers since A.D. 1900.
Summer temperatures in Montana have not changed for over the past 80 years. Summer is when the snow melts.
NCDC Montana Summer temperatures since 1930
Winter precipitation has not changed in Montana since 1930. Winter is when the snow falls.
NCDC Montana Winter Precipitation
Conclusion: there is little if any evidence tying the changes in Montana glaciers to CO2. Glaciers were a mile deep there during the last ice age, and have been receding and growing in cycles ever since. They may have been completely gone after the MWP and reformed during the LIA. Once again, climate alarmists have chosen a flawed poster child.
This pattern is similar to what was seen at Glacier Bay, Alaska, where most of the glacial melt occurred between 1850 and 1900.

USGS map of glacial retreat at Glacier Bay.
Montana is the location of the latest CAGW pilgrimage, after Copenhagen got snowed out. Where next?


Steve Goddard (11:16:54)–
From YOUR link in the article: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/cag3/mt.html
Choose the “mean temperature” and the “summer” period. The green trend line for temperature tilts up.
Steve Goddard–
Why not consider the yearly trends? Again from YOUR YOUR link in the article: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/cag3/mt.html
Chose the “annual” for both temperature and precipitation. The trend line for temperature tilts UP while the precipitation trend tilts DOWN. Please discuss these results in the context of your article claims.
So Craig, what you are saying is that temperatures in Montana have increased since the end of the LIA? I’m very surprised to hear that.
Summer temps in Montana have not increased in the last 95 years. They did increase prior to that, possibly due to all the horse drawn buggies emitting CO2.
“Kate (10:50:06) :
[…]
I am pretending to believe all the “man-made global warming” articles, just like all our politicians and bureaucrats pretend to believe it, too.”
Before you know it they’ll hire you.
Steve, you are playing fast and loose with the facts. YOUR own link does not support your claim. http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/cag3/mt.html
Chose the summer mean temperature. The trend is up. What I’m saying is that I can read YOUR referenced chart even if you can’t.
Craig Moore (14:05:13) :
I live in the Northern Rockies, and am somewhat familiar with the fact that the snow melts in the high country in the summer – June, July, August. http://waterdata.usgs.gov/mt/nwis/dv/?site_no=06006000&agency_cd=USGS&referred_module=sw
Moderator-
My comment at (14:26:36) seems to be stuck in moderation.
[Reply: Didn’t find it in the spam bucket. You’ll have to repost it. ~dbs, mod.]
I beat you by a few days, Steve, though your analysis is more complete than mine. Being in the neighborhood, the Glacier glacier nonsense got a lot of attention from the local MSM, based on the AP story. It reported that summer temps in the park had increased “3 degrees F” in the last century, and 2F “since 1950.”
Here is the AP report:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_DISAPPEARING_GLACIERS?SITE=ALJAS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2010-04-07-19-26-34
So I averaged the annual and summer temps of the 7 GHCN stations surrounding the park since 1950 and posted the results in comments on the stories:
Annual:
http://www.appinsys.com/GlobalWarming/climgraph.aspx?pltparms=GHCNT100AJanDecA195020090900701AR42572773005x42572775004x42572776002x42572776003x42572779000x42572779002x42572779003x
Summer:
http://www.appinsys.com/GlobalWarming/climgraph.aspx?pltparms=GHCNT100AJunAugA195020090900701MR42572773005x42572775004x42572776002x42572776003x42572779000x42572779002x42572779003x
The annual increase for the 7 stations since 1880 was 1.6F.
Steve Goddard (15:15:48)–
Your answer is unresponsive to my request at (14:0513). BTW, when is Colorado considered Northern Rockies, as you claim??? Montana and Alberta is what I have always considered Northern Rockies. Colorado is way down in y’all land.
Back in 1996 i was treated to a “Sinners in the hands of an angry Gaia” speech by Bruce Babbit over the melting of the Park’s glaciers. Trouble was during that same summer Babbit gave at least three “Photo Op” presentations where he
scaped around on an out- as in dead out- fire with his new Pulaski and Nomex with an assortment of firefighters, Airtanker and Helicopters, Cats and Fire trucks, all buzzing around him like flies,all with the carbon footprint of New York City…
I was on one of those Aircraft…
Twice…
Craig,
The summer linear fit since 1913 is a burning hot 0.002 degrees per year, with an error about two orders of magnitude larger than the calculated trend.
http://climvis.ncdc.noaa.gov/tmp/graph-Apr1218:44:415542297363.gif
The trend line is meaningless. If it makes you feel better to think Montana was never warm or dry in the past, then more power too you.
BTW – Winter Storm Warning for GNP through Wednesday.
http://www.wunderground.com/US/MT/009.html#WIN
Craig,
Here is streamflow data for the Yellowstone River. Note that essentially all melting occurs during the meteorological summer. June, July and August.
http://waterdata.usgs.gov/mt/nwis/dv/?site_no=06186500&agency_cd=USGS&referred_module=sw
Craig Moore (14:26:36) : “Steve, you are playing fast and loose with the facts. YOUR own link does not support your claim.”
Craig,
You’re misrepresenting Steve’s claim, which was that Montana temps have not increased *since 1930*. There was an increase between 1895 and 1930, which yields a net increase of about 1.3F over the entire record.
See also my links above for the 7 stations surrounding the park since 1950.
Steve Goddard (15:55:44) —
As I commented above, the pothole ponds and sloughs of the 60’s that I have memories of have dried up. Some of those are where I hunted ducks and fished. They are now dirt. The precipitation trend line from your link supports that memory. The beetles are destroying large sections of the forest as the trees are unable to produce sufficient sap from many years of drought.
You and I are probably in agreement on many things, but Montana is not one of them. See again my comment at (10:37:25) this morning.
Contrarian (16:08:32)–
Go to thechart maker from Steve’s article link. The trend line is up from 1895. It continues up from 1930. That’s what the graph shows. Now, expand the look to annual rather than just summer.
That white stuff isn’t snow. It’s dessicated polar bears. The fierce heat of the Arctic sun has reduced them to powder, and it has blown down into Montana.
Craig,
If you look at the graphs, there is no question that the 1960s was cooler and wetter than the present – as you recall. The 1960s were also cooler and wetter than the 1930s. The point of this article is long term glacial trends, not the 1960s weather which you remember so fondly.
I have provided links to lots of NCDC graphs. What part of them is it that you don’t understand? There is no net summer warming over the last 95 years.
http://climvis.ncdc.noaa.gov/tmp/graph-Apr1218:44:415542297363.gif
RoHa (17:20:21)–
That reminds me of Eskimos.
What Do Eskimos Get From Sitting On The Ice too Long?*
*Answer: Polaroids.
Steve Goddard (17:35:13)–
I find you very disingenuous. Go back and read my comments from the beginning. I can’t make it any plainer for you… and I will not repeat myself further.
I have updated the study of western Montana climate with information on mountain snowpack – strong correlation to the PDO.
http://www.appinsys.com/globalwarming/RS_Montana_USA.htm
OK Craig, you win. Clearly the 60% of normal snowpack of April 10, 2010 is much smaller than the 30% snowpack of the 1917-1941 period. What was I thinking of? And the small glaciers of the 21st century are totally different from the small glaciers prior to the LIA. It is all due to CO2, and had we only passed Kyoto, those poor glaciers in Montana would still be happy and safe.
What, no Frank Zappa quotes yet? Mr. Tuttle, I’m surprised at you! 🙂
Thanks for the overview. I had heard about the Little Ice Age, but didn’t know it lasted that far into the 19th century. Interesting.
Steve Goddard (18:23:17)–
You continue to be disingenuous. Where did I blame C02 as you suggest? READ my supertanker remark in the (10:37:25) comment above.
Craig Moore (18:33:17) :
I wrote this article to show that it is ridiculous to blame the melting GNP glaciers on “global warming” i.e. CO2. It appears that we are in agreement about that issue.
Climate is cyclical. Sometimes it is warm and dry, other times cold and wet. You grew up in Montana during one of the cold and wet times. had you grown up during the dust bowl, you would have a different view of the world.
Craig Moore (14:26:36) :
I went there Craig & yes someone’s playing fast & loose with trends & it ain’t Steve.
DaveE.