From Yahoo News
h/t to Adolfo Giurfa
EPA for the first time looks to mandate reporting of the gases linked to global warming
WASHINGTON (AP) — The federal government wants to require companies for the first time to disclose how much greenhouse gases they’re releasing.
The Environmental Protection Agency is proposing mandatory reporting of the gases blamed for global warming at approximately 13,000 facilities nationwide.
The facilities include refineries, automobile manufacturers, power plants, coal mines and large manure ponds at farms.
Together, the facilities account for about 85-90 percent of the country’s greenhouse gas emissions.
The EPA requires no reporting of greenhouse gases. The information will be needed if it decides to control greenhouse gases or if Congress passes a law limiting the pollution.
Companies would have to file their first reports in 2011.
Should the the EPA ever demand my report, I think I’ll follow Jim Hansen’s lead and do a little “civil disobedience”. Assuming the trend holds, I’d likely send back something like this:
(when you figure it out)
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The ultimate outcome of CO2 regulation will be inflation. I’m curious as to what effect this might have on real estate values, since that’s the root of this economic downturn that has yet to be addressed.
Is there a silver lining here in the short-term? I’m in need of some positivity here.
Reply: Other moderator’s reply removed. Reasons why in email. ~ charles the moderator
AEGeneral
Not likely a silver lining there. Real Estate values are traditionally a function of interest rates which are already at rock bottom. As they go up to control inflation, the corresponding value of the Real Estate has to drop in order to make monthly payments affordable.
old construction worker (14:03:03) : Consumer Unite
Since we the consumer Pay All Taxes on goods and services, send a message to government. Tell them you will cut your spending by 15% if they try to regulate CO2.
Consumers have already shut their wallets. Look at car sales. I don’t expect this to get better any time soon in this country.
We are falling into the social democracy trap. It will take a generation to claw our way back out:
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/csd-california-socialism-disorder/
So I’m shopping for a better place to be. I just hope that I can hold out 2 more years for the kids to be out of college. Then again, I suppose I could be on a tropical beach with a laptop and they could stay here with the house 😎 Heck, I’ll bet they could even qualify for some government support payments if there was no income earner…
E.M. Smith
Wireless is free on Copacabana beach, but you do run the risk of being killed for your laptop.
AEGeneral (20:55:04) : Is there a silver lining here in the short-term? I’m in need of some positivity here.
You can do what I do, and that is to laugh at the stupidity. I would like to pretend that alarmists are people that I don’t know, but they aren’t. I talk to believers every day. They are so illinformed that I stopped trying to discuss the science because it always turns into angry politics. I don’t understand their absolute belief when the proof of the opposite is right before their eyes.
Maybe it is time for the strict adherence method. Pick someplace, like Louisiana or Florida, calculate the total swamp gas emissions and sue them for GHG “pollution”. Repeat. Break the system with strict compliance…
Focus on metro mass transit systems, swamps & bogs, government run electricity generation, sue the Feds for their cut of the offshore oil pumped. Sue them for NOT containing any and every oil seep and gas / clathrate seep. Prove that it just can’t work by killing the government revenue from it with suits. Federal forest cut? Sue for the forgone sequestration and the excess soil breakdown (roots decay). I think we could work it up to a few $TRILLION right quick! (Oooh, and Federal range land for letting cows on too! AND for not putting out the underground coal fires!!)
In no time at all you could have the cattle lobby, the timber lobby, every major bus / truck seller, the oil drillers, you name it, all up in arms…
@ur momisugly evanmjones (19:05:01) :
The Geneva convention only stipulates what warcrimes are, and what you should do next if you caught someone committing a warcrime. That is give the man its rights accoording to the protocol, a fair trial and such.
Execution is only allowed if your justice-system carries the deathpenalty (and some do only in wartime, and others not at all, not even in wartime).
jeez (21:07:05) : Wireless is free on Copacabana beach, but you do run the risk of being killed for your laptop.
I was thinking somewhere a bit more discrete … and with a gated pool … and room service at the beach / pool side … This place in Jamaica comes to mind… but that was 30 years ago, before laptops, and I’m sure it has changed…
FWIW, there are places in the good ‘ol U.S.A. where the wrong color shirt or hanky gets you killed too. It’s all about being aware and selective.
Pres. Obama said yesterday that he promises to base “public policies on the soundest science” as well as to “appoint scientific advisers based on their credentials and experience, not their politics or ideology.” His memorandum on the new research on stem cells directed the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy “to develop a strategy for restoring scientific integrity to government decision-making.”
Do ya think that will apply to the climate question? Unfortunately, I believe it will hold the same strength as the promises to give all legislation a 48-hour airing and end all ear mark spending. His budget relies too heavily on several hundreds of billions of dollars of revenue from the carbon cap-and-trade scheme to overcome the moral relativism of his political promises including “restoring scientific integrity to government decision-making.”
milio (16:49:25) : CFC does not cause ozone destruction. Ozone destruction on Antarctica is a natural process
Watching the ozone maps has convinced me of that. One pole depleted, the other extra rich! Unless the CFCs were all attracted to one pole, it’s a farce! Given the pattern, it looks like an electrical effect from an EFT event with Birkeland currents http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkeland_current
creating the ozone.
(sorry for my english, i’m spanish)
You’re English is fine. Better than my Spanish (and better than many native speakers of English!)
Beinvenidos á esta página! WUWT!
@schnurrp (18:35:54) :
Re Massachusetts v EPA, the decision was 5-4, with Chief Justice Roberts dissenting, and Justice Scalia also dissenting and writing a separate dissent. In Roberts’ dissent, he stated quite clearly that this issue was not one for the courts to decide, but instead should have been handled through the legislative process. (see below)
The 5 votes in favor were the liberal Justices Stevens, Brower, Ginsberg, and Souter, plus Kennedy.
The 4 votes against were the conservative Justices Scalia, Alito, Thomas, and Chief Justice Roberts. Chief Justice Roberts’ dissent was joined (agreed to) by the other 3 justices who voted against.
The decision may be read here:
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/06pdf/05-1120.pdf
In his dissenting opinion, Chief Justice Roberts wrote, in part:
“Apparently dissatisfied with the pace of progress on this issue in the elected branches, petitioners have come to the courts claiming broad-ranging injury, and attempting to tie that injury to the Government’s alleged failure to comply with a rather narrow statutory provision. I would reject these challenges as nonjusticiable. Such a conclusion involves no judgment on whether global warming exists, what causes it, or the extent of the problem. Nor does it render petitioners without recourse. This Court’s standing jurisprudence simply recognizes that redress of grievances of the sort at issue here “is the function of Congress and the Chief Executive,” not the federal courts.”
Roger E. Sowell, Esq.
Climate Change Attorney
anna v (12:19:31) :
Industry Insider (11:50:35) :
The minimum threshold for reporting in the proposed rule is 25,000 metric tons of GHGs, and there are something like 42 industrial source categories for which reporting is required, so individuals will not have to report how much CO2 the exhale.
Considering that each person exhales about 0.5 metric tons of CO2 a year any large company with more than 50.000 employees is caught. The army comes to mind. Large Universities? Mc Donalds?
Yes Anna,
And if emission targets are not met they start culling life stock and in the end culling people.
http://green-agenda.com
What must be very clear to everybody:
CO2 emissions and reduction targets set by legislation provide a serious threat to our freedom, our economy and in the end to our prosperity and our life.
The world wide effort to push CO2 regulation through is based on a political ideology
that undermines our democracy and our civil rights.
From all nations in the world, the USA and the American people will pay the smallest price. Development countries will pay the price in human lives lost due to mass starvation caused by famine.
The current crises only will jeopardize the lives of 2 billion people short term.
An 80% cut in CO2 by closing coal powered energy plants and restriction of the use of fossil fuels will force us close down our economy full stop.
Solar, wind and bio energy can not replace use fossil fuel.
For this we need other technologies which are not available at this moment in time.
If CO2 will be classified as an toxic gas this will put a rope around our necks ready for lynching.
This political agenda is based on a hoax with a single objective:
To regulate and control humanity in numbers and behavioure.
This political doctrine can be compared with the communist and socialist systems that killed millions of people in China, Russia, and Cambodia.
We must stop this madness with all our power.
It will be a difficult job because the people behind this doctrine have been preparing their coup for a long time and they have infiltrated our democratic systems up to the level of the USA Presidency.
Building a strong opposition is the first step but there are many big stake holders and interest groups that will take a stand as soon as they know what is going on.
Informing the public is of the essence.
For those who believe that US industry will move to India or China if regulation taxes will force them to they must know that this won’t be an option.
Obama has just announced a review of all Trade Agreements.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/09/AR2009030903157.html?wprss=rss_print
Obama’s policy is to consolidate his popular vote by introducing a Public Health Program, a Student Program, the creation of 3 million “Green Jobs” , the creation of a Civil Army and tax reductions.
It will not take long before huge groups of Americans will rely on the Obama administration for their bread and butter.
The near future will show that his economic program to revive the banking system and the economy will fail.
His initial tax reductions will result in the most devastating tax system in US history.
Climate legislation and the Federal Budget still have to get through Congress and the Senate.
If you take a look at his current Federal Budget proposal you will find a post Climate Taxes which result in 300 billion dollar taxation per year to be paid by the American consumers.
This won’t help the economy to revive and it won’t do anything for our climate.
It only will make is poor because all the bills end up at our door.
It will put a break on consumption which is exactly what they want to achieve.
Therefore, organize, inform people, get in touch with the companies and create a counter movement.
Or experience the First Global Revolution live the rest of your life under a FASCIST ECO REGIME.
http://green-agenda.com
Bloomberg knows there is something fishy about Obama:
His true objectives and policies STINK.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_hassett&sid=amhpOT5rlR1Y
“evanmjones (19:12:12) :
At the Climate Conference, people were looking for simple arguments the layman can latch onto. I intend to supply those, using fewer words and simpler concepts than has been done previously.”
Thanks evanmjones. I’ll be looking forward to reading your work.
Also, after watching Lawrence Solomon in the breakfast talk from Monday I was thinking :
Maybe commenters here can get together and pay for a few 30 second segments on tv to play at commercial breaks with simple messages about the real science, but in very simple, and even funny, layman’s terms. And then say something at the end of the segment like, “Go to WattsUpWithThat.com for more”. The segments wouldn’t have to necessarily be broadcast on the big four channels. Local channels would be a good start, and much less expensive since i don’t know how much could be brought in from commenters for such a project. I think many of us want to do something to reach the mainstream. This might be a good way. It would be far more effective than exchanging comments with, as Anthony has put it, trolls.
I don’t know if Anthony would like the idea. It’s just a thought.
David Ball (19:45:49) : As I am Canadian, I cannot claim to know the American tax system very well.
No one does. It is hideously complex. There are even lawyers who specialize in tiny little sub parts of it and don’t know what it really does.
I am curious about President Obama saying that no one making less than $250,000 per year will see any tax increases.
This is political lies. First off, he means “any federal income tax rate increases”. There will be plenty of increases in federal excise taxes, state income taxes, sales taxes, severance taxes (on oil, gas, whatever), CO2 taxes, etc. Oh, and remember that a federal fee is not a tax… Now, that “rate” part just means that if you make $100,000 you will pay a certain percentage after deductions. They can still eliminate the deductions for things they don’t like (like, oh, car milage) and you pay more tax, but your rate didn’t go up! Get the picture? Then as inflation from spending a few $Trillion we don’t have kicks in, to earn the same value as that old $100,000 gave, you will need to earn $200,000 (and thus pay more taxes) but without a rate increase… lucky you…
Then announcing that a cap and trade implementation will bring in $650 billion. Will this not be felt in the pocketbook by every American? Will the cost not eventually be felt by the consumer in every imaginable product?
But those taxes will be payed by companies. Yes, they will pack it into the price of goods and services, but those will be price increases due to evil corporate greed, not tax increases!
Is this slight of hand, or am I missing something?
You are missing something:
“How can you tell a politician is lying? His mouth is moving!”
Just remember to ask yourself “What is is?” and “Is it a tax if it is a fee?” and What about if we get a company to collect if for us as a price increase?”
And just remember, these are the folks who think that cutting the expected rate of growth of spending from 6% to 4% growth is a “cut in spending”…
Cutting the 1st or 2nd derivative is not cutting the object, but they keep on saying it is…
AEGeneral (20:55:04) : The ultimate outcome of CO2 regulation will be inflation. I’m curious as to what effect this might have on real estate values,
Is there a silver lining here in the short-term?
Short term, no joy. Longer term, real estate is a good idea.
jeez (21:00:01) : Not likely a silver lining there. Real Estate values are traditionally a function of interest rates which are already at rock bottom. As they go up to control inflation, the corresponding value of the Real Estate has to drop in order to make monthly payments affordable.
You are correct in the short term. And if you had said Real Estate Prices, rather than values, I’d agree even more… The real estate VALUE is the constant, it’s the money price that changes. Money is a “rubber ruler” in times of inflation.
This is all about time frame and time lags. Inflation has a several year lag to get cooking. In the short run, it’s all about interest rates. But in the long run (multi years to decades) it’s all about inflation. At the peak of the last oil / energy shock inflation spiral, interest rates were up around 12% to 18% and prices were inflating like crazy.
So what will happen? Right Now, we need near zero interest rates so the economy does not die. What you want to be doing Right Now is locking in a 30 year fixed rate mortgage at this dead money bottom.
Eventually, this too shall pass. At that time the Fed will start pulling interest rates back up. A pace with that, real estate prices will also rise (due to economic recovery). This is normal business cycle recovery behaviour. More housing demand from folks with a new job drives the home prices up from foreclosure lows to “normal” as rates rise from dead low to “affordable low”.
At some point prices and rates will pass through the equilibrium point. (Probably about 3-5 years away) Prices will be those that a typical fully employed worker can afford at a reasonable interest rate. (probably about 4% Fed rate or about 7% mortgage)
Then they will keep on going…
That’s what happens during the excess growth phase of the business cycle. Normally the Fed would kick the Fed Funds rate up to about 5 or even 6% (mortgages 8% to 9%) and pull the market back via a bit of a slap down / recession with home priced dropping and the cycle repeats. (What we just had was this effect on steroids, and without much of an interest rate bump to pop the bubble…)
BUT…
When you have excessive money supply, when the government is printing pretty pieces of paper by the multiple Trillions and spending them, eventually that will make the pretty pieces of paper a bit less interesting to own. But it takes time. (Typically about 4 to 6 years, sometimes faster, often slower.)
When that happens, the FED raises rates and no one cares because if your money is losing 10% a year in purchasing power, you don’t care if you will get paid 9% on a bond or 8% on a mortgage. You just want to dump the cash, quick. And buying a house dumps that cash while locking in an asset with real value (and with 90%+ borrowed in debt dollars that are inflating away…) That is when real estate starts going up 10% / year in it’s nominal price (real value holds constant, but the money is cheapening) and you are thrilled to death to put a 8% mortgage on the house.
In that context, you don’t lose any value on the money you spent for the down payment (and are dodging the 10% inflation tax on that cash you spent). The 90% that you borrowed is shrinking 10% in real terms per year (though you have to pay 8% mortgage) so you even make 2% / year compound real value on your debt! Heaven! And if you did it right and got a 5% government subsidized loan that’s even better…
Those folks with an old 4% mortgage are thrilled to death, since they have to pay back ever less real value in ever more worthless pretty pieces of paper. Everyone feels richer, since their home is “worth more”, unless measured in loves of bread, ounces of gold, or hours of labor to build… The losers are the folks who bought 30 year bonds or issued those 30 year fixed mortgages…
So Cap and Tirade will result in higher real estate prices, but we’re talking 4 to 6 years (though some economic recovery will raise prices some sooner).
The Problem…
We night not get inflation. We might get ‘stagflation’ or even ‘deflation’. I don’t expect deflation. Deflation is hideous (we’ve had a bare whiff of it in the last 2 years. We went to ‘zero’, not negative, inflation. Imagine what real deflation would have been like… SO the FED et.al. are moving heaven and earth to avoid deflation… Stagflation is what we’re likely to get. No growth (i.e. that house price bump from folks with new jobs doesn’t happen) but we do get the inflation in 4 or 5 years.
Most things stay the same, you just don’t have enough money to do anything about it 😉 and home prices rise more slowly.
In all these scenarios the thing to do now stays the same: Refinance, 30 year fixed. As we sort out into inflation with growth or stagflation, you still want inflation defensive investments (like houses and metals) but stagflation you also want some ready cash investments like TIPS (Treasury Inflation Protected Securities).
One Sidebar: Currencies. The dollar will end up dropping against currencies that are more disciplined. Swiss Franc, Japanese yen, maybe even the Euro. This too will take time. When things are bad, folks run to the dollar. The idea is that it’s a whore, but it’s the best whore in the whorehouse. But eventually the discipline (or lack of it) dominates. Those countries with significant trade advantages have their currencies creep up (Chinese Yuan) and those who make things for export that are in demand also rise (Aussy Dollar, Loonie – Canadian dollar, Brazilian Real) as demand for their metals and mine goods rises. So buying into stocks of miners et. al. in those currencies makes some sense. FXF is the Swiss Franc, FXY is the yen, FXC is the Loonie, FXE is the Euro, FXA is the Aussy dollar and BZF is the Real. Or you can buy stocks in those currencies and try for a “2 fer”.
In time of inflation, I usually go to Yen or Swiss Francs and buy stocks in Australia and Brazil (especially if it’s oil shock related as Brazil is immune from oil shocks being energy independent…).
So, bottom line: It’s a bit early to worry about inflation, but a 30 year fixed mortage is a good idea right now… There is plenty of time to ‘rig for inflation’ and / or deflation. Measured in years.
E M SMith said
“So I’m shopping for a better place to be. I just hope that I can hold out 2 more years for the kids to be out of college.”
I’m thinking of Italy. Not because theyre not as mad as the Anglo Saxon world is becoming but because I don’t understand a word of the language and in this case ignorance is bliss.
TonyB
Milio and EM SMith
It would be interesting to see a thread on WUWT on CFC’s and ozone depletion.
I came across a reference to renewed doubts on causes and queried it with a leading Cambridge professor and did some follow up work with the Max Planck institute.
Previously I would have just accepted the theory 100%. Now I have a 40% doubt as the ozone hole last year was the second biggest ever as (almost)predicted by someone who links it to cosmic rays.
I dont have the background in this field to know the science but the circumstantial information and reading other peoples reports suggests this story still has life.
Tonyb
E.M.Smith (21:04:59) :
‘Consumers have already shut their wallets.’
Then shut your wallet some more and work to throw the bums out of office. Put a stragle hold on the politicans who are choking “the goose that lays the golden egg”.
E.M.Smith (00:21:45) : “Refinance, 30 year fixed. ”
May I add that you should also consider a a 30 year fixed with interest only for 10 years. This will lower your payment now. Using the time value of money theory, your increased payment in 10 years will most likely be of less value than your payment today. Just be sure it is a FIXED rate, not variable. If you take the difference now and apply it to paying down other consumer debt you may have it’s a win win situation for yourself. And if you structure the loan properly any payments to principle during the first 10 years will lower the balance immediately and reduce the monthly interest payment immediately as opposed to an amoritized loan where the payment stays the same throughout the length of the loan. The option to pay more now and lower the payment now remains with you not the lender.
Anna V: The draft rule does not apply to mobile sources of emissions (e.g., humans, cars, etc.), so a company would not be pulled in simply due to having a large number of employees. Still, this is a slippery slope, and I agree with the general sentiment that CO2 regulations are a form of eco-fascism.
With reference to the complaints that using a graph starting in 1998 would be cherry picking, and thus following the bad example of the AGW crowd: Keep in mind that there is a world of difference between proving and disproving something. In mathematics (where formal proof is God), showing that a theorem works for a million cases does constitute a proof. However, showing that it doesn’t work for one particular case is absolute proof that the theorem is false. The AGW folks cherry pick dates in an effort to supposedly prove man-made global warming. We would be just as bad if we used the 1998-to-the-present data in an attempt to prove man-made global cooling. However, it is perfectly valid to use the 1998-to-the-present data to disprove their theory of man made global warming.
All matter, including CO2 molecules, when temperatuers are above absolute zero emit radiation accoding to the Stefan Boltzmann Law. The 15 micron waveband for CO2 absorbs 19% of IR (at 40 C source) as it passes through the air. CO2 molecules reradiate spherically reduding total absorption to 9.5%. The 2.7 and 4.5 micron bands are not significant. The 9.5% is independent of Co” concentration as is global warming.
Re John F Hultquist:
I received an e-mail from a good friend who teaches physics at the U of Idaho. He complains that the temperature was 7 F last night. It was 26
F here in the Seattle area earlier this morning. BRRRR!
Re Robert van der Veeke and evanmjones:
Geneva Convention is generic. There are several major accords dealing with a variety of subjects. Be specific. A simple reference is neither helpful nor descriptive.
Re Everyone:
Business will move to avoid CO2 emissions regulations and their costs. Wealthy people and their money will move to jurisdictions with favorable tax regimes to avoid a confiscatory income tax on earnings in excess of $250,000/yr.
However, cap and trade and sale of carbon credits operates as a regressive national sales tax on virtually everything purchased or consumed. The middle class and the poor, who cannot move, will suffer the most.
How long before we as individuals have to report our CO2 production from;
Our cars
Our furnaces
Our lawnmowers
Our snow throwers
And yes our breathing?
The EPA must be composed of a bunch of time serving nerds with not one independent scientific thinker amongst them.