New Paper from Roy Spencer: PDO and Clouds

Global Warming as a Natural Response to Cloud Changes Associated with the Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO)

Reposted here from weatherquestions.com

UPDATED – 10/20/08 See discussion section 4

by Roy W. Spencer

(what follows is a simplified version of a paper I am preparing to submit GRL for publication, hopefully by the end of October 2008)

A simple climate model forced by satellite-observed changes in the Earth’s radiative budget associated with the Pacific Decadal Oscillation is shown to mimic the major features of global average temperature change during the 20th Century – including two-thirds of the warming trend. A mostly-natural source of global warming is also consistent with mounting observational evidence that the climate system is much less sensitive to carbon dioxide emissions than the IPCC’s climate models simulate.

1. Introduction

For those who have followed my writings and publications in the last 18 months (e.g. Spencer et al., 2007), you know that we are finding satellite evidence that the climate system could be much less sensitive to greenhouse gas emissions than the U.N.’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC, 2007) climate models suggest.

To show that we are not the only researchers who have documented evidence contradicting the IPCC models, I made the following figure to contrast the IPCC-projected warming from a doubling of atmospheric carbon dioxide with the warming that would result if the climate sensitivity is as low as implied by various kinds of observational evidence. The dashed line represents our recent apples-to-apples comparison between satellite-based feedback estimates and IPCC model-diagnosed feedbacks, all computed from 5-year periods (Spencer and Braswell, 2008a):

Fig. 1. Projected warming (assumed here to occur by 2100) from a doubling of atmospheric CO2 from the IPCC versus from various observational indicators. (click for larger image)

The discrepancy between the models and observations seen in Fig. 1 is stark. If the sensitivity of the climate system is as low as some of these observational results suggest, then the IPCC models are grossly in error, and we have little to fear from manmade global warming.

But an insensitive climate system would ALSO mean that the warming we have seen in the last 100 years can not be explained by increasing CO2 alone. This is because the radiative forcing from the extra CO2 would simply be too weak to cause the ~0.7 deg. C warming between 1900 and 2000… there must be some natural warming process going on as well.

Here I present new evidence that most of the warming could actually be the result of a natural cycle in cloud cover forced by a well-known mode of natural climate variability: the Pacific Decadal Oscillation.

2. A Simple Model of Natural Global Warming

As Joe D’Aleo and others have pointed out for years, the Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO) has experienced phase shifts that coincided with the major periods of warming and cooling in the 20th Century. As can be seen in the following figure, the pre-1940 warming coincided with the positive phase of the PDO; then, a slight cooling until the late 1970s coincided with a negative phase of the PDO; and finally, the warming since the 1970s has once again coincided with the positive phase of the PDO.

Fig. 2. Variations in (a) global-average surface temperature, and (b) the Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO) index during 1900-2000. (click for larger image)

Others have noted that the warming in the 1920s and 1930s led to media reports of decreasing sea ice cover, Arctic and Greenland temperatures just as warm as today, and the opening up of the Northwest Passage in 1939 and 1940.

Since this timing between the phase of the PDO and periods of warming and associated climate change seems like more than mere coincidence, I asked the rather obvious question: What if this known mode of natural climate variability (the PDO) caused a small fluctuation in global-average cloud cover?

Such a cloud change would cause the climate system to go through natural fluctuations in average temperature for extended periods of time. The IPCC simply assumes that this kind of natural cloud variability does not exist, and that the Earth stays in a perpetual state of radiative balance that has only been recently disrupted by mankind’s greenhouse gas emissions. (This is an assumption that many of us meteorologists find simplistic and dubious, at best.)

I used a very simple energy balance climate model, previously suggested to us by Isaac Held and Piers Forster, to investigate this possibility. In this model I ran many thousands of combinations of assumed: (1) ocean depth (through which heat is mixed on multi-decadal to centennial time scales), (2) climate sensitivity, and (3) cloud cover variations directly proportional to the PDO index values.

In effect, I asked the model to show me what combinations of those model parameters yielded a temperature history approximately like that seen during 1900-2000. And here’s an average of all of the simulations that came close to the observed temperature record:

Fig. 3. A simple energy balance model driven by cloud changes associated with the PDO can explain most of the major features of global-average temperature fluctuations during the 20th Century. The best model fits had assumed ocean mixing depths around 800 meters, and feedback parameters of around 3 Watts per square meter per degree C. (click for larger image)

The “PDO-only” (dashed) curve indeed mimics the main features of the behavior of global mean temperatures during the 20th Century — including two-thirds of the warming trend. If I include transient CO2 forcing with the PDO-forced cloud changes (solid line labeled PDO+CO2), then the fit to observed temperatures is even closer.

It is important to point out that, in this exercise, the PDO itself is not an index of temperature; it is an index of radiative forcing which drives the time rate of change of temperature.

Now, the average PDO forcing that was required by the model for the two curves in Fig. 3 ranged from 1.7 to 2.0 Watts per square meter per PDO index value. In other words, for each unit of the PDO index, 1.7 to 2.0 Watts per square meter of extra heating was required during the positive phase of the PDO, that much cooling during the negative phase of the PDO.

But what evidence do we have that any such cloud-induced changes in the Earth’s radiative budget are actually associated with the PDO? I address that question in the next section.

3. Satellite Evidence for Radiative Budget Changes Forced by the Pacific Decadal Oscillation

To see whether there is any observational evidence that the PDO has associated changes in global-average cloudiness, I used NASA Terra satellite measurements of reflected solar (shortwave, SW) and emitted infrared (longwave, LW) radiative fluxes over the global oceans from the CERES instrument during 2000-2005, and compared them to recent variations in the PDO index. The results can be seen in the following figure:

Fig. 4. Three-month running averages of (a) the PDO index during 2000-2005, and (b) corresponding CERES-measured anomalies in the global ocean average radiative budget, with and without the feedback component removed (see Fig. 5). The smooth curves are 2nd order polynomial fits to the data. (click for larger image)

But before a comparison to the PDO can be made, one must recognize that the total radiative flux measured by CERES is a combination of forcing AND feedback (e.g. Gregory et al., 2002; Forster and Gregory, 2006). So, we first must estimate and remove the feedback component to extract any potential radiative forcing associated with the PDO.

As Spencer and Braswell (2008b) have shown with a simple model, the radiative feedback signature in globally-averaged radiative flux versus temperature data is always highly correlated, while the time-varying radiative forcing signature of internal climate fluctuations is uncorrelated because the forcing and temperature response are always 90 degrees out of phase.

The following figure shows the “feedback stripes” associated with intraseasonal fluctuations in the climate system, and the corresponding feedback estimate (8.3 Watts per square meter per degree C) that I removed from the data to get the “forcing-only” curve in Fig. 4b.

Fig. 5. Three-month running averages of global oceanic radiative flux changes versus tropospheric temperature changes (from AMSU channel 5, see Christy et al., 2003), used to estimate the feedback component of the radiative fluxes so it could be removed to get the forcing (see Fig. 4b). (click for larger image)

(Note that this feedback estimate is not claimed to represent long-term climate sensitivity; it is instead the feedback occurring on intraseasonal and interannual time scales which is mixed in with an unknown amount of internally-generated radiative forcing, probably due to clouds.)

When the feedback is removed, we see a good match in Fig. 4 between the low-frequency behavior of the PDO and the radiative forcing (which is presumably due to clouds). Second-order polynomials were fit to the time series in Fig. 4 and compared to each other to arrive at the PDO-scaling factor of 1.9 Watts per square meter per PDO index value.

It is significant that the observed scale factor (1.9) that converts the PDO index into units of heating or cooling is just what the model required (1.7 to 2.0) to best explain the temperature behavior during the 20th Century. Thus, these recent satellite measurements – even though they span less than 6 years — support the Pacific Decadal Oscillation as a potential major player in global warming and climate change.

4. Discussion

The evidence continues to mount that the IPCC models are too sensitive, and therefore produce too much global warming. If climate sensitivity is indeed considerably less than the IPCC claims it to be, then increasing CO2 alone can not explain recent global warming. The evidence presented here suggests that most of that warming might well have been caused by cloud changes associated with a natural mode of climate variability: the Pacific Decadal Oscillation.

The IPCC has simply assumed that mechanisms of climate change like that addressed here do not exist. But that assumption is quite arbitrary and, as shown here, very likely wrong. My use of only PDO-forced variations in the Earth’s radiative energy budget to explain two-thirds of the global warming trend is no less biased than the IPCC’s use of carbon dioxide to explain global warming without accounting for natural climate variability. If any IPCC scientists would like to dispute that claim, please e-mail me at roy.spencer (at) nsstc.uah.edu.

If the PDO has recently entered into a new, negative phase, then we can expect that global average temperatures, which haven’t risen for at least seven years now, could actually start to fall in the coming years. The recovery of Arctic sea ice now underway might be an early sign that this is indeed happening.

I am posting this information in advance of publication because of its potential importance to pending EPA regulations or congressional legislation which assume that carbon dioxide is a major driver of climate change. Since the mainstream news media now refuse to report on peer-reviewed scientific articles which contradict the views of the IPCC, Al Gore, and James Hansen, I am forced to bypass them entirely.

We need to consider the very real possibility that carbon dioxide – which is necessary for life on Earth and of which there is precious little in the atmosphere – might well be like the innocent bystander who has been unjustly accused of a crime based upon little more than circumstantial evidence.

REFERENCES

Christy, J. R., R. W. Spencer, W. B. Norris, W. D. Braswell, and D. E. Parker (2003),

Error estimates of version 5.0 of MSU/AMSU bulk atmospheric temperatures, J.

Atmos. Oceanic Technol., 20, 613- 629.

Douglass, D.H., and R. S. Knox, 2005. Climate forcing by volcanic eruption of Mount

Pinatubo. Geophys. Res. Lett., 32, doi:10.1029/2004GL022119.

Forster, P. M., and J. M. Gregory (2006), The climate sensitivity and its components

diagnosed from Earth Radiation Budget data, J. Climate, 19, 39-52.

Gregory, J.M., R.J. Stouffer, S.C.B. Raper, P.A. Stott, and N.A. Rayner (2002), An

observationally based estimate of the climate sensitivity, J. Climate, 15, 3117-3121.

Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (2007), Climate Change 2007: The Physical

Science Basis, report, 996 pp., Cambridge University Press, New York City.

Schwartz, S. E. (2007), Heat capacity, time constant, and sensitivity of the Earth’s

climate system. J. Geophys. Res., 112, doi:10.1029/2007JD008746.

Spencer, R.W., W. D. Braswell, J. R. Christy, and J. Hnilo (2007), Cloud and radiation

budget changes associated with tropical intraseasonal oscillations, Geophys. Res.

Lett., 34, L15707, doi:10.1029/2007GL029698.

Spencer, R.W., and W.D. Braswell (2008a), Satellite measurements reveal a climate

system less sensitive than in models, Geophys. Res. Lett., submitted.

Spencer, R.W., and W.D. Braswell (2008b), Potential biases in cloud feedback diagnosis:

A simple model demonstration, J. Climate, November 1.

0 0 votes
Article Rating

Discover more from Watts Up With That?

Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.

137 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Stephen Wilde
October 20, 2008 2:32 am

An interesting article and set of comments the gist of which seems to support my various articles here:
http://co2sceptics.com/news.php?tag=stephen+wilde
and in particular ‘The Hot Water Bottle Effect’.
The main question remaining unresolved, as pointed out by Leif elsewhere, is whether solar changes are involved in producing a global temperature outcome when combined with net overall global oceanic oscillations
My contention is that the solar and oceanic phases need to combine in the same mode in order to produce rapid warming or cooling.

Jean Meeus
October 20, 2008 2:35 am

TerryBixler wrote:
“The great harm that has been done to science that has been led by NASA and the IPCC will take many years of recovery. I hope that your posting and preview is widely read and considered. Maybe this AGW madness will come to an end.”
Alas, today in a Belgian newspaper there is a text saying that according to the WWF the climate is changing “faster, stronger, sooner”. Every report says that the situation is worse than the previous report said. If this continues, they will say that by the year 2050 the oceans will be boiling.

JamesG
October 20, 2008 2:53 am

And if PDO and ENSO are linked then they are both seemingly linked to the rotation speed of the planet. See here:
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2003/0210rotation.html
So, it is still possible for an AGW proponent to say that pdo is hence caused by man warming the atmosphere unless you get an external mechanism for the rotation changes in which case you can switch cause and effect. Ergo Dr Spencers argument doesn’t really change much in the debate I think.

October 20, 2008 2:58 am

Here is the HADCRUT3 land/ocean + SST data, plus JISAO PDO which mimics Roy Spencer’s first two graphs, if anyone wants to play:
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadcrut3vgl/from:1900/mean:36/plot/hadsst2gl/from:1900/mean:36/plot/jisao-pdo/mean:36/scale:0.25

Chris H
October 20, 2008 2:59 am

Having a skeptical nature, not only do I find the AGW claims suspect, but I also have some difficulty believing Roy’s particular explanation of temperature increases:
I can believe that cloud cover is (roughly) proportional to the PDO. But I find it hard to believe that temperature is NOT (inversely) proportional to cloud cover, but instead the *rate* of temperature change is claimed proportional to cloud cover.
I.e. Why would reduced cloud cover cause temperatures to climb “forever”, while increased cloud cover cause temperature to drop “forever”?
The best explanation I can see is that temperatures would take a long time to reach equilibrium when cloud cover changes, and in the short term this would cause the rate of temperature change to be dependant on cloud cover. But then, why would temperatures take a long time to reach equilibrium with cloud cover?

Alex Llewelyn
October 20, 2008 3:10 am

This is probably one of the most ridiculously alarmist articles I’ve seen in a newspaper:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/10/20/eawwf120.xml
It’s from the telegraph.

Jerry
October 20, 2008 3:16 am

Flanagan
Yes, point taken, but in that case why does the CO2 increase that has been going on for a couple of hundred years only start triggering effects now? Could it not be that with the advent of satellite observations less attention was paid to the quality of temperature observations and in fact the sole cause of the apparent acceleration in temperature increase since the seventies is poor temperature recording (since practically all errors in station siting and maintenance cause a systematic error in the positive direction)?
Just a thought

Nick Yates
October 20, 2008 3:49 am

Flanagan (00:15:58) :
> In the 1990-now period PDO-only gives DT=0.05-0.07, while mesaurements >give something like 0.3, roughly 20 to 25%.
If natural warming was only resposible for 20% as I think you suggest, then take away natural warming and you should still be left with 80% of the previous warming? In reality global temperatures are flat or falling, which by your argument should be impossible.

October 20, 2008 3:49 am

Flanagan,
what is your point? If you merely say that CO2 does have some capacity for driving temps, that’s alright. But if you somehow imply that the results speaks for the IPCC, then bear in mind that the argument between sceptics and the IPCC is about sensitivity (well, and CO2 lifetime in the atmosphere etc). Spencers results certainly indicates a low sensitivity.

DavidK
October 20, 2008 3:57 am

Roy says “increasing CO2 alone can not explain recent global warming.”
No one is disputing this.
He also says “the evidence presented here suggests that MOST (my emphasis) of that warming MIGHT (my emphasis) well have been caused by cloud changes associated with a natural mode of climate variability: the Pacific Decadal Oscillation.”
I hope he is on to something, he could pull-off a Nobel, time will tell.
Notwithstanding, it would be prudent to tread with caution. While AGW is only but a symptom, more effort should be invested in environmental, ecological and economic sustainability.
My fear is we (humanity) have not the capacity to do what is required.

JamesG
October 20, 2008 4:13 am

For some reason I’m reminded of two Bolivian Glaciologists who, after having discovered that the Bolivian glaciers were disappearing not due to global warming as they had previously suspected, but due to the increased occurrence of el niños. They then decided that it didn’t make any difference because the el niños were increasing due to global warming. Why of course! Get ready for similarly vacuous arguments about this paper.

October 20, 2008 4:31 am

Leif mentioned that the theory seems to be that PDO is related to dT/dt. Here’s a test of that theory (using SST) which seems quite interesting:
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadsst2gl/from:1900/compress:60/derivative/plot/jisao-pdo/compress:60/scale:0.25
This shows the dT/dt between 5-year mean temperatures (note using ‘compress’ period means rather than the usual ‘mean’ running mean, to drop the noise)

Jørgen F.
October 20, 2008 5:08 am

Flanagan,
…but these results in fact prove once again that other-than-kangaroo based models are ok for the beginning of the century, but their failure goes up as time goes by. Note that it is the same for sun-temps correlations.
And because we don’t care that kangaroos existed before the 70s and because the number of kangaroos have increased significantly since the 70s, they must be the reason behind global warming. Everybody knows if you put your hand inside the kangaroos pouch it get warm.
Questions ? No – I think we reached consensus.

Slamdunk
October 20, 2008 5:27 am

H (15:37:20) :
Repent and say after me:
There is only one cause of climate change and no other cause of climate change but man-made CO2.
There is only one cause of climate change and no other cause of climate change but man-made CO2.
There is only one cause of climate change and no other cause of climate change but man-made CO2.
Slam: Repent and say after me
As CO2 levels rise to record levels, temperatures continue to drop.
As CO2 levels rise to record levels, temperatures continue to drop.
As CO2 levels rise to record levels, temperatures continue to drop.
🙂

JamesG
October 20, 2008 5:27 am

Flanagan
In your critique you’ve failed to notice that the CO2 rise by itself is a far worse fit to both the post 70’s temp plot and the 20th century temp plot than either the pdo fit above or the solar fit elsewhere. This is the oddity I continually find with warmists – they quite happily hand-wave with positive feedback, aerosols, noise and even pdo to explain all the bumps in the temperature plot that the CO2 rise by itself can’t explain but they never consider that you need far fewer hand-waves to fit a natural variation plot. Eg using popular warmist arguments in different way:
1. Temps should have plateaued in 1950 just like the sunspots plot but then aerosols increased after the war causing cooling until the clean air act brought the situation back to normal.
2. The lack of amplitude correlation from 1985 is obviously just weather noise. Expect the temps to shoot down again soon in line with current solar activity.
3. You need to look longer term. Just compare that sunspot/tsi trend from the start of the century compared to the temperature trend. It’s so obvious!
Svensmark cunningly used this same technique to get a better sun-temperature correlation by firstly using temp plots other than GISS/Hadley, removing volcano effects and adding H20 positive feedback.
It’s surely fun to just make things up as you go along without having to bother with real proof. However we skeptics can identify this hand-waving as unscientific opportunism but warmists somehow mange to call it “evidence”: They remain quite happy seeing exactly what they want to see and believing what they want to believe without even considering just how much abject guesswork is needed to build the case for CO2. One day they might realize that lack of correlation for one guess doesn’t mean that another guess with even less correlation must be correct.

John
October 20, 2008 5:44 am

You do realize that heretics are burned in newsprint for this kind of thing?

moptop
October 20, 2008 5:56 am

“but these results in fact prove once again that other-than-CO2 based models are ok for the beginning of the century, but their failure goes up as time goes by.” -Flanagan.
I don’t know anybody who seriously reads this stuff that doubts some effect of CO2, the question is how much. As noted in the original post, there is a term for CO2 forcing, it is just smaller than the IPCC claims. Can you show from the measurements that the forcing is as large as is claimed by the IPCC? Otherwise you are arguing with your own conception of what a skeptic believes. Not an uncommon trait among warmies.

W. v. Witsch
October 20, 2008 6:25 am

From an interested physicist: Flanagan: “the 75-now period”:
The sulfate aerosol optical depth has decreased strongly since about 1985 (see. e.g., Streets et al., GRL 2006, and Chylek et al. , JGR 2007). The resulting increase in solar radiation incident on the Earth’s surface of several W/m2 (Wild et al., Science 2005, Pinker et al., Science 2005) should be more than enough to explain the “missing” temperature rise in R. Spencer’s curve between 1980 and now.
To include a note to that effect would help to strengthen R. Spencer’s arguments in his new paper.

Marc
October 20, 2008 6:34 am

This is a bit off topic but I wasn’t sure where to put it. It seems that lots of published research may be wrong more often than not.
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/10/19/172254

Bill in Vigo
October 20, 2008 6:38 am

Dr. Roy Spencer,
It is so good to read one’s work that isn’t in the camp of the shove it down your throat team. It is good to have some one that is available to criticism with out the holier than thou replies. I do thank you for your good works and for the introduction of new data and new studies into the study of our changing climate. It makes one wonder who are the real disbelievers, those that refuse new data or those that go our and find new data and study it. Thank you so much for your work and don’t let the warmist wear you down.
Thanks again for work well done,
Bill Derryberry

Pierre Gosselin
October 20, 2008 6:49 am

Spencer’s Blasphemy!
Dr Spencer’s assertions run counter to overwhelming scientific consensus! How dare him! Prosecute him now for crimes against Nature!
———
Seriously,
In the 1970s in the field of medicine there was another scientist, Harald zur Hausen, who also actually had the audacity to reject existing scientific consensus, claiming a virus caused cervical cancer. He was labelled a misfit, and endured ridicule from colleagues. “Everyone knows viruses don’t cause cancer!”
Well, it turns out he was right, and the vast CONSENSUS WAS DEAD WRONG.
Last week Dr. zur Hausen was awarded the Nobel Prize for Medicine and Physiology for his “renegade” work, and deservedly so.
Thanks to German Journalist Dirk Maxeiner for pointing this out.
http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.php/dadgd/article/wenn_sich_alle_einig_sind/
Dr Spencer, you are a true, uncorrupted scientist. Over time you and others like you will get the credit you are owed.

Lichanos
October 20, 2008 7:54 am

Re: anna v:
The hockey stick should have taught us that we have to make plots sexy, more so even when they state the truth, for politicians.
First of all, I hate this debasement of concepts inherent in the rampant use of the word “sexy.” I happend to like sex, and sexiness. It’s not a bad thing.
Second, all presentations of data in charts, maps, tables, etc., are intended to communicate, inform, tell a story. To the extent that the presenter has a clear idea to convey, the story is biased. This is fine, not dishonest. You want to make sure people understand what you are saying.
So, finally, the truth shall make you sexy! If you have a chart that is important, make it look good! That doesn’t mean deceiving, it means clear, forceful, and legible. There are many good examples of this in books to copy. Does the scientific community think there is value in graphic presentation of data that puts people off, confuses them, or simply bores them? This accomplishes nothing.
Design clarity and aesthetic value serve the truth. I conclude my rant.
This is a wonderful blog!

Mike Bryant
October 20, 2008 7:59 am

I have a prediction. Within three weeks a study will come out saying that clouds have nothing to do with climate and the models are correct.

Tim Clark
October 20, 2008 8:21 am

Anthony,
Excellent work. I have been a lurker for quite some time, but my blogging (and text messaging) skills are inadequate. However, I couldn’t let this one pass.
TerryBixler (17:22:07)
(As a side note I was shocked by your treatment by congress.)
Quite the understatement.
Roy: I was embarrassed by the ignorance of Pelosi, disgusted (moreso each day) with Dumocrats, and ashamed of my Congress in general. Keep the faith!
Ellie In Belfast (15:12:45) : Where have you been hiding this.
Leif: It’s the holy grail of solar influence!!!
(http://solarscience.msfc.nasa.gov/papers/wilsorm/WilsonHathaway2006c.pdf). BUT this ends:
“In conclusion, this study has shown that solar/geomagnetic cycle forcing is embedded in the annual mean temperatures at Armagh Observatory, Northern Ireland. Removal of this effect, however, does not fully explain, especially, the rapid rise in temperatures now being experienced, this possibly being a strong indication that humankind is contributing to climatic change.”
Also, perhaps more important, this paper contradicts the arbitrary and fallacious determination that 30 years constitutes a climate cycle, as the authors determine and admit longer term 66 year climate influences.
Words from the Savior-must be gospel.
Understandably, a localized event, but I concur with Pelke ie. global models distort regional variations. This paper must be followed with other regional analysis (pl?).
My hypothesis (as a degreed (pedigreed?) soil scientist/plant physiologist) is that a portion of the slight solar energy variation is stored in the ocean, to be released later. In this regard Leif, what is the time value of the .1W/m2 oft quoted solar variation. Is there a publication that has determined the total energy/year or /solar cycle, etc?

Raven
October 20, 2008 9:20 am

Leif,
How does your work on TSI affect the prevailing theory that the holoscene optimum temperatures were higher than today because of orbital variations? Are the orbital variations large enough to explain the temperatures with direct TSI effects?