From Physorg.com
The Swiss alpine region of Valais is pictured in February 2008. German researchers trying to slow melting glaciers have set up a large screen in the Swiss Alps that they hope will trap cold air over the icy mass, Johannes Gutenberg University said Thursday.
German researchers trying to slow melting glaciers have set up a large screen in the Swiss Alps that they hope will trap cold air over the icy mass, Johannes Gutenberg University said Thursday.
“We hope our installations will bring about a net cooling of the area. And if the melt is not stopped, that it is at least slowed,” the project’s leader, geography professor Hans-Joachim Fuchs, said in a statement.
The structure, 15 metres long and three metres high (49 feet by 10 feet), was raised in the middle of the Rhone glacier in Switzerland’s southwestern Valais region by 27 students from the German university.
The purpose of the screen — which sits at an altitude of 2,300 metres — is to keep cold winds over the glacier.
Already successfully tested in a laboratory, the experiment will be studied on site until August 21, according to the university, located in the German city of Mainz.
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statePoet1775 (18:58:07) :
“It might work and the screen is very small for the effect it might produce. But they might want to work on how to melt glaciers in a hurry if things get colder,”
I’ve read that the Chinese are melting glaciers by spraying coal dust on them. They melt the glaciers to produce fresh water.
Daryl Ritchison
Trail Ridge Road, Colorado closed due to snow:
http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=97729&provider=top
http://www.nps.gov/romo/planyourvisit/road_conditions.htm
Hopefully things will clear up enough to permit our planned Labor Day camping trip in Rocky Mountain Park. Nice little escape from the DNC here in Denver.
This story brought back a lot of memories.
We drove by the Rhone glacier in the summer of 1991. Only later did I realize the road through this region was the backdrop for several of the scenes in Goldfinger. I was watching a rerun on TV and recognized the setting, including a shot of the Rhone glacier.
It was also the same year the Iceman was discovered in another part of the Alps we had driven through earlier.
At the time it was believed the ice melt through out the Alps was attributed to the soot released by Saddam’s burning of the oil fields. When the hikers went through the area, the ice was at historic lows and portions of his body were revealed.
It turns out he was the victim of foul play or combat. There was a big fight between Italy and Austria over possession of the body. I don’t recall what honorary citizenship was finally bestowed on our bronze age visitor. He also believed in acupuncture.
http://www.crystalinks.com/oetzi.html
We stayed with friends close to the town of Montana and observed the fireworks set off for the celebration of Switzerland’s 700th anniversary on August 1, 1991.
If a home overlooking the Rhone Valley in Switzerland is not heaven on earth, there is no such thing.
Put a good white blanket over the glacier and it wouldn’t melt at all. (Even a black one would work.)
Of course, that would take a lot of material and resources. And you wouldn’t get to see the actual glacier. And the rivers fed by the glacier would dry up and the towns depending on the melt-water would need to find another water source and the fish in the river would die and the …
REPLY: and then there’s that inconvenient sublimation. Ice evaporates. Try putting a couple of ice cubes in a sock, put them in your frost free freezer for a month, then try to find the ice cubes.
I’ve lost count of the times, in internet debates, that warmists have cited the entire IPCC report to support their position.
It’s fascinating just how much like a religion this whole global warming thing has become.
But one advantage the warmists have is that they can update their Bible every 5 years.
We have to be pro-active and work diligently if we want to mitigate climate change; there are no easy fixes, just hard work.
LOL, counters! The idea of “mitigating climate change” is even nuttier than the above story. Climate changes – it always has, and always will. Man’s effect on climate via C02 simply amounts to noise, so adaptation is the key. The .6 deg warming of the past century has actually been a boon to mankind, as has the rise in C02. Adapting to the coming cold will be far, far harder, particularly if we foolishly waste time and resources on “mitigating” something we have no control over whatsoever. But, you, counters, like all AGWers insist on remaing in a fantasy world. Wake up, for crying out loud.
As others have mentioned, it’s when glaciers are advancing that we have to watch out. Brian Fagan mentions in his book The Little Ice Age, that when the Bishop of Geneva arrived to perform his exorcism, the Les Bois glacier was advancing “by over a musket shot [120 meters] every day, even in the month of August.” Astonishing, if it’s accurate. Can anyone confirm whether glaciers are able to move this fast?
Re New Scientist, I’m not a subscriber but managed to skim the “Climate change: The next ten years” story in the paper edition when I was in the supermarket last week. The gist of it, as far as I recall, is that there seems to be plenty of uncertainty as to what will happen to climate change in the next few years but indications are that global warming will come back with a vengeance sometime soon. That’s a bit vague but I was in a hurry and thinking about lunch. Oh, and they also quote Michael Mann.
I’m with Sean G. Why are they trying to stop the glacier from melting? I can understand if it’s an essential resource to their skiing industry but I didn’t think people ski’d on glaciers. I thought they’d be full of crevices and debris. The way the article is written, it’s as if the Germans think they can stop global warming by stopping the glaciers from melting. That’s a little like thinking you can put out a house fire by somehow preventing the fabrics from scorching. “If people would just stop running around screaming ‘FIRE!’ we wouldn’t be having this problem.”
I guess this sort of insanity will spread. We’ll keep all the polar bears on life support somehow, and tow all the iceburgs north to the dwindling ice pack and re-attach them with ice cream caulk. Damming up the rushing waters from the Greenland ice melt would be the next step. Send some snow machines down to replenish the peak of Kiliamanjaro and all will be well. Global warming stopped in it’s tracks.
Neil, I’ll refer you to the IPCC AR4; the case and conclusion is laid out plainly there. Yes, we can mitigate climate change by reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
Yes, and that’s entirely beliveable because of all the model forecasts have been dead on accurate.
Why do we have to mitigate climate change? Because it brings uncertainty. It makes people worry. Can’t have that. The politicos have to be seen as doing something. We really don’t know what will happen, but we have to stop it. No matter how much it costs. Our government will protect us. If it doesn’t work, it will be because we didn’t spend enough money on it.
The reality is that nothing we do will have much effect. “reducing greenhouse gas emissions will mitigate climate change” What if greenhouse gas emissions don’t cause climate change? The reduction will certainly “mitigate” the economy. If enough people die from food shortages, there won’t be as many protesters (OK, that’s harsh)
I fail to see how 45 sq.m will change anything. Why do I suspect a government grant had some influence here…
Jack Simmons said: “At the time it was believed the ice melt through out the Alps was attributed to the soot released by Saddam’s burning of the oil fields. When the hikers went through the area, the ice was at historic lows and portions of his body were revealed.”
Jack, I have to wonder if the ice was really at a “historic low”… after all, he was buried UNDER the ice.
Counters
Gee, never thought you’d come back with that one!
I can’t help but think that people who believe that man can mitigate or modify our planet’s climate – in either direction – are kidding themselves.
Anna V, that’s why I suggested the Sun shade.
Alexjc,
See how far New Scientist has descended as a meaningful magazine; it is now hawked in supermarkets alongside national Enquire, which at least has the attribute of being entertaining.
Alexjc,
Re New Scientist, I’m not a subscriber but managed to skim the “Climate change: The next ten years” story in the paper edition when I was in the supermarket last week.”
See how far New Scientist has descended as a meaningful magazine; it is now hawked in supermarkets alongside national Enquire, which at least has the attribute of being entertaining.
Counters: Your assertion that mankind can mitigate climate change by reducing greenhouse gas emissions assumes that greenhouse gases have more than a negligible impact on climate. Big assumption.
Counters, re: your post to Neil saying:
“Neil, I’ll refer you to the IPCC AR4; the case and conclusion is laid out plainly there.”
I’ll refer you to Anthony’s posting called “The Tale of the Hockey Stick.” That accounting alone, at the least, shoots a big hole in AR4.
There is a place for environmentalism but, similar to religion, that place is not in government regulations. And more importantly, nothing man will ever do short of thermonuclear war, will ever change the climate of this planet in any direction we would desire, whether we wanted eternal snow or Eden-like warmth.
Warmer Is Better. Fight The Ice.
I think there is a narrow point in a valley that the screen is placed in to block the flow of air above the glacier. By trapping a layer of air above the glacier, heat gain might be reduced. Just a guess. I don’t see how else a small screen could work.
counters (07:54:28) :
Perhaps you should argue with Prof. Freeman Dyson. Note especially the second paragraph.
Sean G
I certainly appreciate your point.
Generally when one says historic, it refers to something actually written down in someone’s history. Unfortunately, no one recorded what was going on at the time of the Iceman’s internment.
Another critical factor in his preservation was the placement of his remains in a shallow depression in the rock. Thus melting water tended to gather in a pool about the remains, which would freeze in the winter. Also, moving snow and ice would pass over the body.
You might want to get the book “The Man In The Ice” by Konrad Spindler. I was fascinated enough by the story I obtained a copy for my own library.
Here’s the passage covering the discovery:
“Later, Helmut Simon would describe their discovery to us like this: ‘From a distance of 8 or 10 metres we suddenly saw something brown sticking out of the ice. Our first thought was that it was rubbish, perhaps a doll, because by now there is plenty of litter even in the high mountains. As we came closer, Erika said: “But it’s a man!”‘ Helmut Simon immediately ran back to get the Austrian couple, from whom they had parted shortly before. But they were no longer in sight.
Sticking out of the ice is a leather-brown round bald skull with a medallion-sized injury. Also visible are the shoulders and back, draped against a rock. The face is immersed in water, with dirt around the chin. The arms cannot be seen, and seem to be missing. Because of its delicate proportions, Erika suggests that it is the body of a woman.”
The book is a great read.
Oh here’s the fun part:
“The intersection of the red cross on the stone on which the corpse had lain is exactly 92.56 metres from the state frontier, on Italian territory.”
How could I forgotten that detail?
I guess he was going to be treated to pasta and wine instead of strudel and beer.
Certainly if he had been exposed to the air earlier, nothing would have survived; or at least not as much as they did get.
I do know the snow and ice levels were very low that summer in the Alps because our hosts commented on the fact. There was extensive coverage of the effects of the oil fields being set on fire by Saddam when he exited Kuwait. I seem to recall a Nature article on the distribution of the soot reaching all the way up to Europe.
statePoet1775 (19:32:15) :
“I think there is a narrow point in a valley that the screen is placed in to block the flow of air above the glacier. By trapping a layer of air above the glacier, heat gain might be reduced. Just a guess. I don’t see how else a small screen could work.”
You mean trapping this air loaded with CO2 that will reflect back radiation and melt the glacier more?
The whole thing is bizarre. The only thermodynamic reality would be if the glacier was melting by convection, air above the melting point of ice continually flowing over the surface, and this flow is interrupted.
If it is melting by retaining radiation( soot), or excess sun radiation, only a shade could help as somebody here observed.
We need temperatures over the glacier. The average global temperature at http://discover.itsc.uah.edu/amsutemps/
at 1 km height is always below the melting point ,4C .( that is why glaciers survive in the mountains) so I cannot see how the glacier could be melting from convection and be protected by aerodynamic means.
Jack,
Thanks for the extra info!
“The only thermodynamic reality would be if the glacier was melting by convection, air above the melting point of ice continually flowing over the surface, and this flow is interrupted.” anna v
Combining comments from Anthony about sublimation and yours about air temps over glaciers, how about this? The screen is there to prevent lower humidity air from replacing the saturated air over the glacier. I don’t see how this would reduce melting, though.
Discovery channel has been hyping a new series about bizare new schemes to counteract global warming. Everything from seaborne cloud generators to wrapping glaciers in blankets.
The nuttiness gets worse every year.
(My guess is that they are trying to hype up these solutions, so that when it is shown that global warming has stopped, they can claim credit.)