By Tom Harris
Anyone not already familiar with the stance of geologists towards the global warming scare would have been shocked by the conference at the University of Ottawa at the end of May. In contrast to most environmental science meetings, climate skepticism was widespread among the thousand geoscientists from Canada, the United States and other countries who took part in GAC-MAC 2011 (the Joint Annual Meeting of the Geological Association of Canada, the Mineralogical Association of Canada, the Society of Economic Geologists and the Society for Geology Applied to Mineral Deposits).
The lead symposium of the conference, Earth climate: past, present, future, was especially revealing. Chaired by University of Toronto geology professor Andrew Miall, the session description starts: “The scientific debate about climate change is far from over. Some of the projections of climate change and its consequences contained in the 2007 Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (the United Nations’ IPCC) have been called into question. This symposium will address some of these issues and present a geological perspective on the scientific debate.”
The talks were from “climate rationalists,” defined by Australian geology professor Bob Carter of James Cook University as “persons who are critical (on balanced scientific grounds) of the IPCC’s alarmism … reflecting the primacy that such persons give to empirical data and thinking. The climate rationalist approach contrasts markedly with the untestable worlds of computer virtual reality that so many climate alarmists now inhabit.”
Leading off the GAC-MAC climate symposium was fellow Australian, Ian Plimer, professor in the School of Civil, Environmental and Mining Engineering at the University of Adelaide. In a keynote presentation entitled Human-induced climate change: Why I am skeptical, Plimer completely dismantled the greenhouse-gas-driven climate-change hypothesis. He showed how climate has varied naturally on all time scales and how recent changes are not unusual. Plimer explained the lack of meaningful correlation between the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide (CO2) and planetary warming and cooling, and how “climate models throw no new light on climate processes.” He concluded, “Pollution kills, CO2 is plant food, H2O vapour is the main greenhouse gas…. Humans can adapt to future changes.”
Following Plimer were 14 other climate presentations by leading geoscientists. Henrik Svensmark of the National Space Institute in Denmark spoke about how cosmic ray variations in the atmosphere are influencing climate by changing the microphysics of clouds. University of Ottawa emeritus professor Ján Veizer presented his research describing the role of the Sun and water vapour on CO2 and climate change. Calgary geophysicist Norm Kalmanovitch showed how satellite radiation measurements demonstrate that the “enhanced greenhouse effect” from greenhouse gas emissions has never even existed to any measurable extent. Carleton University researcher Hafida El Bilali showed how her work with paleoclimatologist professor Tim Patterson revealed that variations in the output of the Sun have had major influences on regional climate for the past nine millennia.
And so it continued. Although one speaker presented information that was consistent with IPCC claims, no other presentation in the symposium supported the UN’s human-caused dangerous global warming hypothesis. In the discussion period following the talks, climate rationalists decried the lack of media or public attention to the symposium or their research findings. In the exhibit hall, few participants seemed interested in human-caused global warming. The catastrophic messages that so overwhelm other climate-related conferences were nowhere to be found.
Where were all the other scientist supporters of climate alarmism? Did they not know that climate was a major focus of this, the largest geologic conference in the country?
They knew. According to Miall, even though some were directly invited, they either refused to participate or ignored the invitation. “The people on the IPCC side generally will not debate,” explained Miall. “Anything that’s brought up that they disagree with, they say has been dealt with and is no longer considered important, or is a minor effect. This is often quite wrong.”
In the Q&A following the public lecture at last June’s Canadian Meteorological and Ocean Society (CMOS)/Canadian Geophysical Union Congress in Ottawa, the prospect of a public debate between the two sides was put to keynote speaker Warwick Vincent of Laval University. Vincent was supportive, as was a CMOS past president communicated with later. Yet, when I approached CMOS executives and directors about taking the steps necessary to arrange such a public event, the responses were negative to the point of abuse and nothing transpired.
This was perhaps not surprising. Proposals for a proper climate science debate have been opposed by CMOS leaders for a long time. As early as 1990, the chairman of the CMOS congress scientific committee, Tad Murty (then a senior research scientist with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans’ Institute of Ocean Sciences) tried to arrange a global-warming debate. But it never happened. Murty cites a “lack of enthusiasm” from other committee members as the reason.
When the Kyoto Protocol was created in December 1997, long-time CMOS member Madhav Khandekar (then just retired from his research scientist position at Environment Canada) highlighted several uncertainties in IPCC science and called for an open debate on the issue in the CMOS Bulletin. His article, Global warming & climate change in Canada: A need for an open scientific debate, was completely ignored by CMOS executives and its membership at large.
At this week’s congress in Victoria, CMOS, like many organizations of its ilk, still maintains a rigid stance of climate catastrophilia. The congress includes sessions described with clearly mistaken statements such as “Recent research has highlighted the irreversibility of CO2-induced climate change on centennial timescales …..” Other, less extreme but also unjustified assertions abound: “It has become widely recognized that under a changing climate, the frequency and intensity of meteorological/hydrological extreme events and associated damage costs would more likely increase in the 21st century.”
The narrow-mindedness of CMOS and other climate alarmists matters because they have the ear of the mass media, most of which uncritically reports on CMOS’ statements that the science is settled and debate unnecessary. Recent surveys show that the public is highly influenced by these assertions and so seriously flawed CMOS messages are incorporated into government pronouncements.
Miall maintains that the views of geoscientists are crucial for a proper understanding of climate.
“This should have been accepted practice all along, not because geoscientists are necessarily right, but because this should be the normal process of science,” said Miall. “The idea that any science is ‘finished’ violates all the norms of the science process, which should, by definition, be permanently open to new data and new ideas. The history of science is full of examples of so-called ‘normal science’ that is shown to be wrong on the basis of a single critical piece of data or a new idea. That’s all we were trying to do at the GAC meeting — keep our minds open.”
Uncomfortable though it may be for geoscientists, society needs them to speak out forcefully now. Otherwise, the climate alarm, its science failing but the movement still heavily funded, will stagger on, leading society into wasting billions of dollars more and destroying millions of jobs worldwide.
Financial Post
Tom Harris is the executive director of the International Climate Science Coalition.
Short summary: Climate scientists not interested in debating geoscientists as reported in the Financial Post section of the National Post
Story title: Canadian Climate Scientists and Canadian Geophysicists – not birds of a feather
Discover more from Watts Up With That?
Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.
These geologists, they’re the bedrock of the scientific method!
(Sorry, couldn’t resist the obvious pun)
I am proud to say that I was one of Andrew Miall’s PhD students in 1992. To see him stand up and hold forth these views is almost stunning…and a strong voice for science done right. That nobody from the alarmist side engaged is very telling…I’ll wager that they are basically unable to withstand such an onslaught.
Examining the Scientific Consensus on Climate Change
The two areas of expertise in the survey with the smallest percentage of participants
answering yes to question 2 were economic geology with 47% (48 of 103) and meteorology with 64% (23 of 36).
Question 2 was: Do you think human activity is a significant contributing factor in changing mean global temperatures?
Scientific Creationists “won” a lot of debates against legitimate paleontologists and evolutionary biologists. Obviously that indicates the Scientific Creationists were correct.
The reality is geologists understand the processes of climate change far better than ‘climate scientists’. They are aware that climate change is natural and normal, while ‘climate scientists’ and alarmists have an unattainable goal of fixing climate in a static state, similar to that prevailing early last century.
I, like every geologist I know, have complete contempt for the processes and conclusions of ‘climate scientists’, which have been utterly corrupted by: i) the demands of tax hungry politicians, and ii) personal financial considerations – grants and generous salaries..
This failure to debate on a regular basis with skeptics is really all an intelligent seeker needs to know to decide which side of the issue the science supports. Even if the CAGW proponents didn’t figure they’d learn much, having the other side’s positions in black and white would be worth the effort.
It’s been my experience that warmists refuse to take on skeptics in general.
How can anyone still take Ian Plimer seriously after the debacle that was Heaven & Earth? Not a single climate scientist disputes the fact that climate has changed in the past naturally, sometimes more dramatically than now (accompanied by mass extinctions). The main problem for Ian is to show that the trend in the past 50 years is not from human activity (this falsification has not occurred); let alone show another likely mechanism that would explain the trend.
Peter Miller says:
June 8, 2011 at 10:48 pm
Ditto from myself.
I would also add that geology is a big subject (as in both spatially and of course timescale) and there are many folk that find it hard to understand the sizes, volumes, 3D imagery and sheer billions of years of timescale involved. (I am not saying folk can’t learn this, but the ordinary man in the street often thinks that the time of the last dinosaurs (say 65mya) is ”really old’ when in fact it’s relative peanuts compared to the age of the earth (4600my old)! Similarly, considerations like the fact that some extinctions occurred over a ‘geologically’ short timescale of say 10000 years! In ‘our’ current timescale – 10000 years is a long time – but its a snip in ‘earth’ time – so WTF does anyone think that 150 years of temp data is worth? LOL! These kinds of facts, along with many others, such as the sheer scale involved in the ‘real’ carbon cycle, (i.e. the billions and billions of Gt of carbon in various parts of the worlds surface!) – all seem to be conveniently ignored by the AGW theorists and warmistas.
Was this written up in the financial post? A link would be nice to view any comments on the story. And well done to those guys for finally speaking up, now they need to learn to shout louder 🙂
“climate catastrophilia”
A great term! Science in general is extraordinarily compartmentalised with minimal communication between tribes. In one community – geology – sanity and true science reigns, in another, “climate science”, corruption,deceit, mafia politiking and cynical opportunism are the rule.
gincko syas:
“Not a single climate scientist disputes the fact that climate has changed in the past naturally”
Wrong. That is exactly what Michael Mann tried to show in his hockey stick chart. If it were not for projection, the alarmist side wouldn’t have much to say.
And:
“The main problem for Ian is to show that the trend in the past 50 years is not from human activity (this falsification has not occurred); let alone show another likely mechanism that would explain the trend.”
Once again the scientific method is turned on its head. Scientific skeptics have nothing to prove. The onus is completely on the alarmist crowd to show that human activity has altered the warming trend from the LIA. They have failed; the trend is unchanged.
There are known and unknown mechanisms driving the climate. What is becoming increasingly apparent is that CO2 is not one of them. The sooner the alarmist contingent accepts that fact, the sooner they will start to learn something about what really causes climate variability.
ginckgo says:
June 8, 2011 at 11:54 pm
“How can anyone still take Ian Plimer seriously after the debacle that was Heaven & Earth? Not a single climate scientist disputes the fact that climate has changed in the past naturally, sometimes more dramatically than now (accompanied by mass extinctions). The main problem for Ian is to show that the trend in the past 50 years is not from human activity (this falsification has not occurred); let alone show another likely mechanism that would explain the trend.”
Why should Ian have to show another mechanism, as Phil Jones has admitted the CAGW theory relies on ‘There is no other mechanism we can think of other than CO2’. Hardly monumental stuff.
So going by the Scientific Method the theory has been proposed but as the predictions of the models are not being met CAGW theory is false, it’s not CO2. There is no need for anyone to prove it’s not CO2. They should now be looking for what the real driver is.
All the money being wasted on CAGW research should be being spent on find out what really drives the climate.
Yes, but what do these geologists know? Their opinion doesn’t count because they are not real climate scientists, are they.
/sarc
“climate catastrophilia”
I like that term!
Geologists are heavily associated with the fossil fuel industry so their opinions, even if well-founded, can easily be dismissed by Team AGW as having financial motivation. Nobody cares to point out the Team AGW has exactly the same and opposite financial motivation.
Follow the money – from the fossil fuel industry to the green energy industry. There is nothing a good capitalist likes more than money moving from one direction to a new direction. Too many people with their hands in the same till.
I am also a geologist. I think what frustrates me most is the lack of appreciation of the timescales involved along with basic methodologies which approach the issues with the end result already decided.
Looking back to events like the PETM, there was scant evidence of CO2 driving those changes. There was no identified source which could account for the increase of 4Gt of carbon into the environment. Various sources have been suggested, comets, methane clathrates, changes in ocean circulation and warming polar surface waters leading to less absorption of CO2, but my overall impression from published literature is that it is a mystery.
The mystery of course vanishes the moment you stop trying to invoke carbon as the cause, but a symptom of the warming at that time.
There is very strong evidence of orbital forcing for this thermal maximum which probably lead to the increase in temperature and the outgassing of CO2 from carbon sinks as a result. Then the oceans are warmer in polar regions, which slows the CO2 pump down which causes a rise in CO2 which is consistent with the proportions of carbon released.
And look at the Jurassic oceans…over 1000ppmv CO2 but highly productive oceans which were able to support a large number of species which of course should not have been able to exist in the “acid oceans”. Species adapt to changing carbonate dissolution profiles. The majority are pelagic and unless the changes invoke moving through the anoxic zone of the ocean, then they can simply swim to a tolerable depth.
Of course, this opens another can of worms, that the species used as temperature proxies actually move in the water column so are not reliable indicators of anything other than oxygen 18 isotope ratios for ice sheet dynamics studies. But is is of course probably against the law to suggest that the isotopic demigods should be questioned.
No, there is no debate because the hypothesis will stand no real analysis. The earth is cooler now than at almost any time during its history outside of snowball earth. Rarely do we have polar ice caps. This is unusual. That is the inconvinient truth.
Meanwhile, the really important things we should be scared to death about, like water mining, unsustainable flux of PAH into groundwater and biodiversity are not widely debated.
The other issue I always thought was quite amusing was the idea we are actually going to vapourise all the stored carbon, on which the figures you will find for AGW disaster often rest.
Does any scientist genuinely think that anyone will be burning fossil fuels in 30 years time? Think Craig Ventor’s waste water to biofuel project, capable of creating feedstock from algae and the advances in Thorium Reactor technology, ignoring fusion of course or any new exotic physics. Given the pace of progress in energy technology prior to the advent of the sort of sophisticated computing tools we have now, who seriously thinks we will be burning any of this in the future?
It is difficult to tax biodiversity loss, water quality and indirect pollution though isn’t it?
Emperors New Clothes.
I had thought that Ian Plimer had been (thankfully) dropped as a standard bearer by the sceptic community. I took the view that he had no credibility after reading George Monbiot’s correspondence with him and the Spectator over a planned 2009 Spectator debate on “climate change”.
In short, Monbiot said he would debate Plimer, but Plimer first had to answer some basic questions about his book (things like “Please give the source for your claim”). The Spectator agreed the conditions. Plimer appeared to agree as well, and then he (Plimer) started stalling, then blustering, and ultimately refused to answer any questions at all. See:
http://www.monbiot.com/2009/09/14/correspondence-with-the-spectator/
and
http://www.monbiot.com/2009/09/14/correspondence-with-ian-plimer/
I became a sceptic partly because the alarmists seemed to be so obviously dishonest in the way they obstructed Steve McIntyre, among others, while Steve Mc & Anthony Watts seemed to be so straightforward. In that whole Spectator episode, Plimer seemed to be as slippery as they come. I can well understand why nobody would want to debate him.
It is very telling that the Warmists will not debate except in echo chambers!
Peter Miller says:
June 8, 2011 at 10:48 pm
“[Geologists] are aware that climate change is natural and normal, while ‘climate scientists’ and alarmists have an unattainable goal of fixing climate in a static state, similar to that prevailing early last century.”
Peter, thanks for that because this is the bit I just don’t get: why do climate alarmists want the world’s climate to remain forever as it was when they were young? THEY are the real deniers about climate; they refuse to accept it changes naturally. There are so many cycles involved, from tiny ones observable by humans to vast ones.
Where I grew up in Australia way back in the fifties we had lots of rain on the east coast. Whether it was a La Nina I don’t know. I remember the government sending in army ducks to rescue people from flooded rivers, especially at Maitland in the Hunter Valley. I was eight. But even where I lived on the outskirts of Sydney we had days off school because local creeks were flooded and the school bus couldn’t get through. Or maybe Mum just didn’t want to deal with muddy children. But it was very wet, and hasn’t been as wet since. Some sort of cycle?
HK I suggest you find out the full story behind Plimer/Monboit debate , it was Monboit that cut and ran becasue Plimer wanted a more balanced debate where Monboit wanted to load it in his own favor, carrying on his CIF role of ‘school bully’ , all Plimer did was use the same approach to Monboit as Monboit used to Plimer .
Albert Frankenstein,
Thank you for one of the most insightful posts I’ve read in a long time.
Do you have a blog?
Denialist scum lacking wrist numbers. Move along! Nothing to see here, don’t gawk!
Even in the days of the early Church religious leaders in conflict with each other over dogma would at least debate.
I have always found the cowardice of the AGW promoters to debate a great tell that they know at some level they are peddling bs.
Agree with HK.
Why should anyone want to debate Plimer? His credibility has already been found wanting.
@ur momisugly Mark Nutley says:
June 9, 2011 at 1:01 am
Yes- http://opinion.financialpost.com/2011/06/07/climate-isnt-up-for-debate/