House passes $700B "bailout bill" – CO2 Tax issues included –

Well, first we’re going to get AUDITED
(the “rescue bill” requires a CARBON AUDIT of the tax code)
Better get our records in order, start looking for all those CO2 receipts…

‘‘Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008’’. GPO PDF

I also posted this on the other thread about the bailout….
Click here for NYT video on one of the causes of the Financial Crisis.
My summary of the NYT video:
5 firms – Goldman Sachs, Merril Lynch, Lehman Bros, Morgan Stanley and Bears Stern, applied in Apr 2004, to change investment rules. Basically, they were allowed to use computer models to assess the level of risk in investments.
My commentary:
Gore says that climate models can be trusted, because Wall Street has used similar models for years.
Look how that turned out, on wall street, for these firms.
The weakness, or outright failure of each, is a major contributor to the financial crisis of 2008.
Now, my question to the believers of Climate Models:
Should we invest 40 trillion in these models?
My question to the SEC:
ARE YOU GUYS ON CRACK?!?!!?”

M White (10:53:40) :
“And we’ve got one of these
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7650669.stm
Oh good, the UK government now has a Department of Climate…
so it’s not going to be a cold winter after all.
So how long is it now until we have a US Secretary of Climate ?

I am making a bumper sticker: Save the Planet, Sequester Al Gore.

Are we prepared for the appointment of Algore as Secretary of the DOE after the 20 January 2009 inauguration?
Les Johnson (11:10:30) :
“Should we invest 40 trillion in these models?”
Are you doubting the validity of computer models? Computer models accurately depict the agenda, bias and foregone conclusions of the programmer and we all know that the axiom, garbage in, garbage out, is fallacious. Computers do not lie – their output is always the “truth” as related to the input.

Start keeping track of all your CO2 emissions, including exhalation.
You’re eventually going to have to declare them on your tax return, and it could be for this year’s taxes (there’s already a precedent for retroactive taxes).

counters (12:08:40) :
“…learn a bit about what a climate model is and how it works before you continue making false statements about them.”
Geez, do you really need to defend climate models against libel, counselor?
Are they covered under campaign finance reform?
Is Les required to say he approved of his message?

Didn’t the National Academy of Sciences already discredit the hockey-stick graph?

“Are you on crack?”
Maybe not crack and maybe not the SEC but cocaine dealers have often been crowing that their biggest customers are financial traders. A good deal of the high flyers were truly high much of the time:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=430393&in_page_id=2
“The pressures were immense and everyone was doing it. You would hear sniffing in the toilets. We would start work at 6.30am, take our first line at 11.30am, then be entertaining until 2am”
For years the world economy has been manoeuvred by 25 year olds high on drugs.
Like the climate models, the financial models are merely a mathematical wrapper around two grossly poor human assumptions a) that a rising trend will surely keep rising (apart from a few ‘noisy’ fluctuations) and b) that ‘smart’ folk can tell why it’s rising.

Great… not only did we, the voters, get screwed with a $700 billion tax bill but now we’re gonna get a carbon tax on top. Time to start a third political party and kick the donkeys and elephants out of Washington, DC.

Counters
It’s clear you know nothing at all about financial models. You should really find out about them before you sound off. Yes they are also a series of differential equations, often exceedingly more complex, with proper optimisation techniques, than most climate models – many of which are simplistic junk by comparison. Also they are written by programmers who are streets ahead of most academics in ability, using modern problem-solving languages like Ocaml rather than Fortran. What they both utterly fail on though isn’t the maths or physics, it is the total reliance on ad-hoc assumptions about the underlying mechanisms combined with exceedingly poor validation.

I’ve had it with this nitwit President in particular and the republicans in general. The ‘pubs had six years in which they could get things done and they blew it. In the process, they showed the Nation they cannot be trusted and that they are the “spendthrift party” more so than the dumbos.
We know the dumbocrats are losers, but many had some faith in the ‘pubs. No longer, I’d rather vote communistic that republican ever again!
Jack Koenig
Independent Voter

First, they don’t permit drilling for oil here, even though its presence is known, thus driving up the cost of oil.
Then they require the issuance of lousy mortgage loans in pursuit of some feel-good social agenda.
Now that the chickens have come home to roost, they posture as our ‘saviors” by passing a pork-laden, something-for-everyone ‘rescue’ package that our kids and their kids will be paying throughout the century, at least until the rest of the house of cards collapses.
Just when you think things can’t get any worse, it gets worse.
From Marc Morano, a member of Senator Inhofe’s staff:
“During a week where Americans were focused on perhaps the greatest economic challenges this country has faced in over a generation, House Democrats released a set of principles on October 2nd that outline an aggressive plan to cap greenhouse gas emissions. The plan could be even more economically restrictive than the failed Lieberman-Warner Climate Security Act, which would have cost $6.7 trillion dollars, according to the bill’s own sponsors.”
See the rest of that post:
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=c4584465-802a-23ad-46a7-cf9cfff3d7b9

Will (12:04:44) :
I am making a bumper sticker: Save the Planet, Sequester Al Gore.
That’s a great one, Will. I have made my own also:
SAVE THE PLANET
MORE CO2 = MORE GREEN
Think I’ll make one of yours too
http://www.makestickers.com/ (not my company:)

AE General says:

Didn’t the National Academy of Sciences already discredit the hockey-stick graph?

In a word, no. Here is the report: http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=11676 . They did not have as much confidence as Mann et al. in the pre-1600 results but still concluded

The basic conclusion of Mann et al. (1998, 1999) was that the late 20th century warmth in the Northern Hemisphere was unprecedented during at least the last 1,000 years. This conclusion has subsequently been supported by an array of evidence that includes both additional large-scale surface temperature reconstructions and pronounced changes in a variety of local proxy indicators, such as melting on ice caps and the retreat of glaciers around the world, which in many cases appear to be unprecedented during at least the last 2,000 years. Not all individual proxy records indicate that the recent warmth is unprecedented, although a larger fraction of geographically diverse sites experienced exceptional warmth during the late 20th century than during any other extended period from A.D. 900 onward.
Based on the analyses presented in the original papers by Mann et al. and this newer supporting evidence, the committee finds it plausible that the Northern Hemisphere was warmer during the last few decades of the 20th century than during any comparable period over the preceding millennium. The substantial uncertainties currently present in the quantitative assessment of large-scale surface temperature changes prior to about A.D. 1600 lower our confidence in this conclusion compared to the high level of confidence we place in the Little Ice Age cooling and 20th century warming.

Mann et al.’s latest (2008) paper is an attempt to address some of the uncertainties identified in this NAS report.

Senator Byrd would would say that there is a, “certain amount of over-reacting going on around here.”
Attaching this particular “stuff” to this particular bill at this particular time is a particularly good thing.
Particular illogical ranting on this particular blog at any particular time is a particularly bad thing. It accomplish nothing and provides AGW’ers opportunity to misdirect the debate.
Speaking of accomplishing — I am able to up my contribution to WUWT to $20.00 / month. Here is one real line in the sand, and all of us who can afford to — should stand with Anthony in moving the debate forward via this blog’s particularly positive outreach and impact..

Do you remember Black Monday? It was caused by a bunch of computer models getting a sell signal. The smart money knew it was a glich and bought stock at or near the bottom.

We need an economic assessment of the positive benefits of increased atmospheric CO2. Goodness knows we are spending a great deal looking for negatives. For instance what is the world wide savings on increased food production and reduced water usage due to the increase in CO2?
Do the positive environmental and economic effects of global warming increase in a linear fashion as CO-2 increases, while the warming from additional CO2 decreases logarithmically?

I fear Bad Science and politicians have won more than just the day.
If I could afford to contribute, I would, but I can not.
We need this site, it’s insight, and the science it covers so well,
we should all contribute what we can.
I try to..
(I’ll never, ever vote for a politician that spouts AGW either.)
So, I will not leave this planet with a guilty conscience,
I have tried my best, and will continue to,
(which ain’t that good, but every little helps)
however much the “greens” try to indoctrinate me otherwise.

I have an Excel spreadsheet that’s better than the link you gave in that it lists who voted ‘YES’ by state and whether they are up for election this year. Can I upload it?

Ya know, maybe blaming the Demicans or the Republicrats is not correct. Maybe we need to look past party affiliation to the training and background of those people who are elected to govern. The vast majority of them are lawyers. For many years we’ve elected people whose training is in legal and political matters, figuring these were the people who would write and pass good legislation.
Yet it is becoming clear these people have created laws that have great sounds to them, but dire consequences. The act that created the sub-prime lending fiasco is just one such example albeit a large one. A smaller, every day example of their work is those idiotic safety messages in instruction manuals (most of the pages in fact) for things that have motors, whirling blades, loud noises or sharp stuff.
OK, where do we go from here? Seems to me most of our small towns and municipalities are reasonably well run. That’s where the people elected to mayor, councilman, or what have you are folks like the rest of us. They are housewives, (yea, it’s still a word!) janitors, mechanics, small business people, garbage men and you name it. Regular common sense folk who want to do something for their community. They are not insulated from their constituents, but immersed with them in a common environment. They don’t have layers of staffers feeding them what the staffer wants. The city attorney will give them legal advice, but overall, they have to listen to their neighbors.
You get my drift. Maybe it’s time to elect some of these folks (liberal, center, conservative) to do our business.
“Nuff said!
Mike

Les Johnson says:

Joel: the NAS report I have, is subtly different than what you have

Same report…Just a different part of the summary than what I quoted. (Note that I linked to an online version of the entire report.)

I’m happy to say my congresslady Candice Miller stuck to her guns and voted against it. Way to go Candice!
Senator Debbie Stabenow voted against it too. Hooray Debbie.

Tom,
Yea, Al Gore giving back his Nobel LOL – um, oh, you weren’t joking!
My post was whistling in the dark (cold) but I had to get it off my chest. From an environmental standpoint the only candidate with some (insert body part here) is a hockey mom. And she’s had to tone down to be more PC. McCain has no clue, Biden is a joke and Obama is ignorant. Before some Ron Paul supporter jumps in, his spoken record on CO2 isn’t steller either.
There are some bright people in DC, but they are a small small minority. I just hope this ol’ mud ball chills quickly – it might take some of the breath out of the doom and gloom crowd.
MJB

“We know the dumbocrats are losers, but many had some faith in the ‘pubs. No longer, I’d rather vote communistic that republican ever again! Jack Koenig”
Well Jack, you have your chance this election!

Robert Wood wrote: Somewhow, I expect to see a larger than normal amount of congressional oustering goin on this year. The sense I get of this bailout looting is that it is incredibly unpopular amongst the American people, of both political flavors. But I am in Canada.
Robert I wish this were true but the impact from this will probably be minor when elections roll around. Primary reason is Americans seem to have lost all long term memory and can’t be angry more than a week or two before they forget what they were angry about in the first place. One major event in the news and the national ADD kicks in. Second very few in the MSM are willing to put the blame anywhere other than at the feet of the president and none of the other players who had a hand in causing this problem are stepping up to take responsibility for it. In fact i believe if some of those other responsible parties got a do over knowing what the consequences were, they would do the exact same thing because they would say “yea it’s gonna be bad but i’ll get reelected”

Our representatives are pretty canny when it comes to their constituencies. I doubt if any have stepped over some overly dangerous line.
Post that people can use to label WUWT’ers into various groups of social fringe dwellers — such post will only aid those of the opposing (AGW’ers) view who jump every chance to obfuscate

Pamela Gray (14:59:53) : I have to ask this. If the first bill failed to move out of the house because Republicans didn’t like it, and the second one the passed the Senate and the House filled with pork (presumably that’s why it passed), who wanted the pork? And before you answer, pork is pork whether in the form of a tax break or funding grant.
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
I have just start to read portions concerning AGW /energy/environment — anything pertaining to usual WUWT focus.
Long way to go. Lots of stuff has been on the “books” for years / decades — being extended and/or slightly modified. They did not write this stuff last week — it was ready to go on opportunity.
A lot of the “stuff” is desirable regardless of the stated motivations for enactment into law.
The SEC. 117. Carbon audit of the tax code was going to happen anyway. Without doubt, it is going to be a regurgitation of thirty years of AGW regurgitant. They are going to be many AGW’ers extremely pissed about waiting two years to present it.
Discussion of millions of dollars worth of porkified wooden arrows and such , in my opinion, belongs not on WUWT.

Pofarmer (21:03:46) :Well, it IS rather hard to validate the future.
Rather minor point –which never stopped congress in the past. 😉
Seriously, this is “stupid is as stupid does,” business as usual. Government will wax and wain — and will neither intentionally, completely, annihilate voters nor destroy the tax revenue generating economic machine.
Relative to AGW, how many other world governments have we seen proclaim x goals to reduce CO2 but, in the end, pursue a significantly smaller subset of x.?

FWIW, my cats couldn’t care less. One is blind and almost deaf, and the other’s most pressing concern is which lap to attempt to sit on.

” House Democrats Push Climate Tax While Negotiating Fiscal Bailout – They just don’t get it
” During a week where Americans were focused on perhaps the greatest economic challenges this country has faced in over a generation, House Democrats released a set of principles on October 2nd that outline an aggressive plan to cap greenhouse gas emissions.
” The plan could be even more economically restrictive than the failed Lieberman-Warner Climate Security Act, which would have cost $6.7 trillion dollars, according to the bill’s own sponsors.
” That $6.7 trillion cost would have been passed on to families and workers across the country in the form of higher gas prices, higher electricity and heating/cooling bills, more expensive consumer goods, and higher workplace costs.
” As we learned during this past summer’s debate on the failed Lieberman-Warner global warming cap-and-trade bill and with the recent victory on offshore drilling, the appetite of the American people to unlock America’s affordable energy resources is very strong. When it comes to being in touch with Americans, the House Democrats need a reality check.
“The current financial crisis only reinforces the public’s wariness about any climate bill that attempts to increase the costs of energy and jeopardizes jobs. ”
(EPW Press Blog)
http://www.junkscience.com

Is the glass half empty or half full?
You are all complaining about having to declare your CO2 emissions from breathing. Have you thought about the huge tax returns you could be getting if you hold your breath for a mere 7 hours a day?
I figured out I could quit my job if I can get up to 9 hours of breath holding a day. Woo hoo. No work, free money, and saving the world…

“The United States needs a new economic stimulus plan that pumps billions of dollars into infrastructure projects and budget relief for cash-strapped state and local governments, Democratic lawmakers said on Sunday.”
http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/tre49b35b-us-financial-usa-stimulus/
The individuals in the article read like a who’s who of AGW alarmists. Not much doubt about what will happen when the Democrat’s gain a majority with a Dem president. We’re going to get change whether it works or not.
The oil companies will not be provided an incentive to drill, trillions more will be spent on programs that will not benefit anyone in the long run.. we’re all in big, big trouble.