A new view on GISS data, per Lucia

For some time I’ve been critical (and will likely remain so) of the data preparation techniques associated with NASA GISS global temperature data set. The adjustments, the errors, the train wreck FORTRAN code used to collate it, and the interpolation of data in the polar regions where no weather stations exists, have given me such lack of confidence in the data, that I’ve begun to treat it as an outlier. 

Lucia however makes a compelling argument for not discarding it as such, but to treat it as part of a group data set. She also makes some compelling logical tests that give an insight into the entire collection of datasets. As a result, I’m going to temper my view of the GISS data a bit and look at how it may be useful in the comparisons she makes.

Here is her analysis:


 Surface Temperatures Trends Through May: Month 89 and counting!

a guest post by Lucia Liljegren

Trends for the Global Means Surface temperature for five groups (GISS, HadCrut, NOAA/NCDC, UAH/MSU and RSS.) were calculated from Jan 2001-May 2008 using Ordinary Least Squares (OLS) using the method in Lee & Lund. to compute error bars, and Cochrane-Orcutt and compared to the IPCC AR4’s projected central tendency of 2C/century for the trend during the first few decades of this century.

The following results for mean trends and 95% confidence intervals were obtained:

  1. Ordinary Least Squares average of data sets: The temperature trend is -0.7 C/century ± 2.3C/century. This is inconsistent IPCC AR4 projection of 2C/century to a confidence of 95% and is considered falsified based on this specific test.
  2. Cochrane Orcutt, average of data sets: The temperature trend is -1.4 C/century ± 2.0 C/century. This is inconsistent with the IPCC AR4 projection of 2 C/century to a confidence of 95% and is considered falsified based on this specific test for an AR(1) process.
  3. OLS, individual data sets: All except GISS Land/Ocean result in negative trends. The maximum and minimum trends reported were 0.007 C/century and -1.28 C/century for GISS Land/Ocean and UAH MSU respectively. Based on this test, The IPCC AR4 2C/century projection is rejected to a confidence of 95% when compared to HadCrut, NOAA and RSS MSU data. It is not rejected based on comparison to GISS and UAH MSU.
  4. Cochrane-Orcutt, individual data sets: All individual data sets result in negative trends. The IPCC AR4 2C/century is falsified by each set individually.
  5. The null hypothesis of 0C/century cannot yet be excluded based on data collected since 2001. This, does not mean warming has stopped. It only means that the uncertainty in the trend is too large to exclude 0C/century based on data since 2001. Bar and Whiskers charts showing the range of trend falling inside the ±95% uncertainty intervals using selected start dates are discussed in Trends in Global Mean Surface Temperature: Bars and Whiskers Through May.

The OLS trends for the mean, and C-O trends for individual groups are compared to data in the figure immediately below:

Click for larger.

Figure 1: The IPCC projected trend is illustrated in brown. The Cochrane – Orcutt trend for the average of all five data sets is illustrated in orange; ±95% confidence intervals illustrated in hazy orange. The OLS trend for the average of all five data sets is illustrated in lavender, with ±95% uncertainty bounds in hazy lavender. Individual data sets were fit using Cochrane-Orcutt, and shown.

Discussion of Figure 1

The individual weather data in figure 1 are scattered, and show non-monotonic variations as a function of time. This is expected for weather data; some bloggers like to refer to this scatter as “weather noise”. In the AR4, the IPCC projected a monontonically increasing level increase in the ensemble average of the weather, often called the climate trend. For the first 3 decades of the century, central tendency of the climate trend was projected to vary approximately linearly at a rate of 2C/century. This is illustrated in brown.

The best estimates for the linear trend consistent with the noisy weather data were computed using Cochrane-Orcutt (CO), illustrated in orange, and Ordinary Least Squares (OLS) illustrated in lavender.

Results for individual hypothesis tests

Some individual bloggers have expressed a strong preference for one particular data set or another. Like Atmoz, I prefer not to drop any widely used metric from consideration. However, because some individuals prefer to examine results for each individual group seperately, I also apply the technique to describe the current results of two hypothesis tests based on each individual measurement system.

The first hypothesis tested, treated as “null” is the IPCC’s projections of a 2C/century. Currently, this is rejected at p=95% under ordinary least squares (OLS) using data from 3 of the five services, but it is not rejected for UAH or GISS. The hypothesis is rejected against all 5 servies when tested using C-O fits.

The second hypothesis tested is the “denier’s hypothesis” of 0C/century. This hypothesis cannot be rejected using data starting in 2001. Given the strong rejection with historic data, and the large uncertainty in the determination of the trend, this “fail to reject” result is likely due to “type 2″ or “beta” error.

That is: The “fail to reject” is likely a false negative. False negatives, or failure to reject false results are the most common error when hypotheses are tested using noisy data.

Results for individual tests are tabulated below:

Trend Estimates and Results for Two Hypothesis Tests Treated Individually as Null Hypotheses
Group OLS Trend Reject / Fail to Reject? CO Trend Reject / Fail to Reject?
  (C/century)  2C/century 0 C/century (C/century) 2C/century 0 C/century
Average of 5 -0.7

± 2.3

Reject Fail to reject -1.4 ± 2.0 Reject Fail to reject
GISS 0.0 ± 2.3 Fail to

Reject

Fail to reject -0.4 ± 2.0 Reject Fail to reject
HadCRUT -1.2 ± 1.9 Reject Fail to reject -1.6 ± 1.6 Reject Fail to reject
NOAA -0.1 ± 1.7 Reject Fail to reject -0.3 ± 1.5 Reject Fail to reject
RSS MSU -1.3 ±2.3 C Reject Fail to reject -2.1 ± 2.1 Reject Fail to reject
UAH MSU -0.8 ± 3.6 Fail to reject Fail to reject -2.0 ± 3.1 Reject Fail to

reject

The possibility of False Positives

In the context of this test, rejecting a hypothesis when it is true is a false positive. All statistical test involve some assumptions, those underlying this test assume we can correct for red noise in the residuals to OLS using one of two methods: A) The method recommended in Lee&Lund or B) Cochrane-Orcutt, a well known statistical method for time series exhibiting red noise. If these methods are valid, and used to test data, we expect to incorrectly reject true hypotheses at p=95%, 5% of the time. (Note however, finding reject in February, March, April and May do not actually count separately, as the rejections themselves are correlated with each other, being largely based on the same data.)

Given the results we have found, the 2C/century projection for the first few decades of this century is not born out by the current data for weather. It appears inconsistent with underlying trends that could possibly describe the particular weather trajectory we have seen.

There are some caveats that have been raised in the blog-o-sphere. There has been some debate over methods to calculate uncertainty intervals and/or whether one can test hypotheses using short data sets. I have been examining a variety of possible reasons. I find:

  1. In August, 2007, in a post entitled “Garbage Is Forever”, Tamino used and defended the uses OLS adjusted for red noise to perform hypothesis tests using short data sets, going into some detail in the response to criticism by Carrick, where Tamino stated:

    For a reasonable perspective on the application of linear regression in the presence of autocorrelated noise see Lee & Lund 2004, Biometrika 91, 240–245. Your claims that it’s “pretty crazy, from a statistics perspective” and “L2 is only reliable, when the unfit variability in the data looks like Gaussian white noise” raises serious doubts about your statistical sophistication.

    Later posts, when this method began falsifying the IPCC AR4 projection of 2 C/century, Tamino appears to have changed his mind about the validity of this method possibly suggesting the uncertainty intervals are too high.

    The results here simply show what anyone would obtain using this method: According to this method, the 2C/century is falsified. Meanwhile, re-application to the data since 2000 indicates there is no significant warming since 2000 as illustrated here.

  2. Gavin Schmidt suggested that “internal variability (weather!)” noise results in a standard error of 2.1C/century in 8 year trends; this is roughly twice the standard error obtained using the method of Lee & Lund, above. To determine if this magnitude of variability made any sense at all, I calculated the variability of 8 year trend in the full thermometer record including volcano eruptions, and measurement noise due to the “bucket-jet inlet transition. I also computed the variability during a relatively long historic period with no volcanic eruptions. A standard error of 2.1 C/century suggested by Gavin’s method exceeded both the variablity in the thermometer record for real earth including volcanic periods and that for periods without volcanic eruptions. (The standard error in 8 year trends computed during periods with no volcanic eruptions is approximately 0.9C/century, which is smaller than estimated for the current data).I attribute the unphysically large spread in 8 year trends displayed by the climate models to the fact that the model runs include

    a) different historical forcings, some including volcanic eruptions, some don’t. This results in variability in initial conditions across model runs that do not exist on the real earth

    b) different forcings during any year in the 20th century; some include solar some don’t.

    c) different parameterizations across models and

    d) possibly, inability of some individual models to reproduce the actual characteristics of real-earth weather noise.This is discussed Distribution of 8 Year OLS Trends: What do the data say?

  3. Atmoz have suggested the flat trend is either to ENSO and JohnV suggested considering the effect of Solar Cycle. The issue of ENSO and remaining correlation in lagged residuals has been discussed in previous posts and the solar cycle is explained here.
  4. The variability of all 8 month trends that can be computed in the thermometer record is 1.9 C/century; computing starting with a set spected at 100 month intervals resulted in a standard error of 1.4 C/century. These represent the upper bound of standard errors that can be justified based on the empirical record. Variabiity includes features other than “weather noise”– for example, volcano eruptions, non-linear variations in forcing due to GHG’s, and measurement uncertainty, including the “jet transition to bucket inlet” noise. So, these represent the upper limit on variability in experimentally determined 8 year trends.Those who adhere to these will conclude the current trends fall inside the uncertainty intervals for data. If the current measurement uncertainty is as large as experienced during the “bucket to jet inlet transition” associated with World War II, they are entirely correct.

After consideration of the various suggestions about uncertainty intervals, and the issues ENSO, solar cycles and other features, and considering the magnitude of the pre-existing trend I think over all the data indicate:

  1. It is quite likely the IPCC projection for an underlying climate trend of 2C/century exceeds the current underlying trend.I cannot speculate on the reasons for the over estimate; they may include some combination of poor forecast of emissions when developing the SRES, to the effect of inaccurate initial conditions for the computations of the 20th century, to inaccuracy in GCMs themselves or other factors.
  2. It remains likely the warming experienced over the past century will resume.While the 2C/century projection falsifies using both OLS and C-O, the flat trend is entirely consistent with the previously experienced warming trend. In fact, additional analysis (which I have not shown) would indicate the current trend is not inconsistent with the rate of warming seen during the late 90s. It is entirely possible natural factors, including volcanic eruptions depressing the temperature during the early 90s, caused a positive excursion in the 10 year trend during that period. Meanwhile, the PDO flip can be causing a negative excursion affecting the trend. These sorts of excursions from the mean trend are entrely consistent with historic data.Warming remains consistent with the data. As the theory attributing the warming to GHG’s appears sound and predates the warming from the 80s and 90s, I confident it will resume.

What will happen during over the next few years

As Atmoz warns, we should expect to see the central tendency of trends move around over the next few years. What one might expect is that, going forward, we will see the trend slowly oscillate about the mean, but eventually the magnitude of the oscillation will decay.

One of my motives in blogging this is to show this oscillation and decay over time and to permit doubters to see the positive trend resumes.

I will now set off on the sort of rampant speculations permitted bloggers. When the next El Nino arrives, we will see a period where the trends go positive. Given trends from the 70s through 90s, and current trends, it seem plausible to me that, using the methods I describe here that that we will experience some 89 month trends with OLS trends of 3C/century – 4 C/century or even greater sometime during the next El Nino. At which point, someone will likely blog about that, the moment the 89 month trend occurs. )

This result will entirely consistent with the current findings. An OLS (or CO ) trend of 3-4 C/century is likely even if the true trend is less than 2C/century, and even if CO and OLS do give accurate uncertainty intervals.

What’s seems unlikely? I’d need to do more precise calculations to find a firm dividing line between consistent and inconsistent. For now, I’ll suggest that unless there is a) a stratospheric volcanic eruption, b) the much anticipated release of methane from the permafrost or c) a sudden revision in the method the agencies use to estimate GMST, I doubt we’ll see an 89 month trend greater than 4.6 C/century within the next five years. (I won’t go further because I have no idea what anyone is emitting into the atmosphere!)

Meanwhile, what is the magnitude of the trend for the first three decades of this century? That cannot be known with precision for man years. All I can say is: The current data strongly indicate the current underlying trend less than 2C/century, and likely less than 1.6 C/century!

Excel Spreadsheet.

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Richard deSousa
June 24, 2008 2:58 pm

How can anyone think that NASA GISS is unbiased? Not with Hansen at the helm of their climate department. He’s already proclaimed himself the chief inquisitor gunning for the oil company executives. He’s already proclaimed them guilty.
REPLY: Even biased data has it’s value, as Lucia has demonstrated. I don’t agree with their methods and resulting data, but it is useful for comparison. Hansen’s political exploits tend to speak more to the conclusions he draws from the data, than the data itself.

neilo
June 24, 2008 3:29 pm

I got totally lost in all the statistics. So how can biased data have value?
Also, she says: “As the theory attributing the warming to GHG’s appears sound”
Eh? My understanding was that the theory has been totally debunked. So what has this analysis actually shown? That we should use the GISS data? In other words, let’s apply weird statistical methods to prove that the GISS data is valid, and because the GISS data is valid then the global warming theory is sound.

June 24, 2008 3:31 pm

Lucia/Anthony,
The hyperlink for Tamino’s response to the criticism by Carrick seems to be broken.
As far as GISS goes, its important to remember that while it has been trending slightly higher than the other series for the last four years, that is certainly not beyond the scope of normal variability between temperature series. You can see GISS minus the mean of UAH, HadCRU, and RSS for the past 30 years here:
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j237/hausfath/GISS-MEAN.jpg

June 24, 2008 3:36 pm

I don’t think the GISS temperatures are biased. And I think the extreme similarities in the long-term trends when compared to all the other temperature metrics support that conclusion. However, the GISS code is publicly available. Theoretically, one should be able to run their code and see if the results are the same as in their data products. That cannot be said for any of the other sources producing global mean temperature data.

Dave Andrews
June 24, 2008 4:06 pm

Atmoz,
Do you ever lurk at Climate Audit?
If you did you would soon realise there is a world of difference between the code being “publically available” and being able to run it and check the results. There is a wide gulf between “theoretically” and actuality,
REPLY: And in the gulf is the train wreck. That code is written in SPLODE++ – Anthony

Bill F
June 24, 2008 5:27 pm

I am kind of grappling with a problem with Lucia’s conclusion #2. Forgive me if this comment rambles a bit. Lucia provides numerous examples of natural factors inducing both large positive and large negative trends in the data over a period of many years in the past. Yet she uses that along with “analysis not shown here” to conclude that warming is likely to resume and could meet the 2C/century trend predicted? I don’t see anything in her analysis to suggest that what she has done has any predictive value whatsoever. She makes what is almost a statement of faith when she concludes that the theory of GHG warming is sound and uses her confidence in that faith to make a conclusion that the warming will resume.
I was with her right up to that point, but don’t see how what she concludes there is supported by what she has done. She is in essence saying that the past positive trend could be caused by natural factors…and the current negative trend could be natural as well…but her faith in the theory leads her to conclude that warming will resume. I am quite confident that warming at some point in the future will reach a 2+C/century trend as well. But I have no way of knowing (and neither does Lucia) whether that trend will resume from the current endpoint or after a prolonged period of cooling that takes us back to early 1970s levels or below. Her conclusion #2 is simply an opinion based on her faith in AGW theory and not something that “the data indicate” as she claims.
Overall…nicely done analysis…but it doesn’t support conclusion #2.

crosspatch
June 24, 2008 5:48 pm

I thought I detected some sarcasm in that she was saying you can find pretty much whatever you happen to be looking for if you wait long enough.

June 24, 2008 6:00 pm

Dave,
I read the interesting posts at CA, but not the comments (signal to noise ratio is a little too low). But yes, I do know that no one has been able to get the GISS code to compile. I gave it a token shot on my box, to no avail. But that’s not really important. What’s important is that there are 5 independent groups (GISS, NCDC, Hadley, UAH, RSS) that take two distinct sets of data (in situ and remotely sensed) apply 5 different algorithms that results in almost exactly the same answer over the time periods of interest (they may disagree on monthly and yearly time scales, but over >20 years they agree well). So if you think that GISS has been biasing their results to appear like there has been greater warming than reality, you must think the same of the other 4 groups as well.
Reply: I think you missed the reference to this over at CA. I believe the code has been compiled on OSX. See this thread.~jeez

June 24, 2008 6:07 pm

Anthony wrote: “And in the gulf is the train wreck. That code is written in SPLODE++”
I’ve written in RPG, Autocoder, Easycoder, Cobal D, Fortran IV, and a few other specialzed Basic type languages, but what in the hell is SPODE+++? A specialized assembly language?
Jack Koenig, Editor
The Mysterious Climate Project
http://www.climateclinic.com
REPLY: Jack, here is the definition. Plus a training video on SPLODE -Anthony

June 24, 2008 6:11 pm

Based on the lack of comments posted so far, it doesn’t appear Lucia has much of a following.
From a personal standpoint, I can no longer consider ANYTHING coming out of NASA or NOAA as legitimate information. What’s that old saying: Lie to me once, shame on you. Lie to me twice, shame on me.
So why would anyone in their right mind believe anything stated by either of these agencies after they’ve been caught in one lie/distortion/misinformation after another?
Jack Koenig, Editor
The Mysterious Climate Project
http://www.climateclinic.com

David Segesta
June 24, 2008 6:20 pm

Please excuse me for being a perpetual skeptic, but in my opinion you cannot make any kind of a future projection using that type of analysis. It assumes that temperature will continue on the trend it has followed for the last 7 years. Now imagine applying that method to the ice core data for the last 400,00 years. Look at the temperature graph at http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/last_400k_yrs.html ( 2nd graph)
Pick any place on the graph and run your analysis. Would you even come close to predicting the future temperatures? I would say; not a chance.

Michael Hauber
June 24, 2008 6:35 pm

What exactly is the evidence that the GISS temp series is biased?
I lurk on Climate Audit; I don’t read everything, and some of what I read I don’t fully understand or forget, but what I’ve pieced together:
Many photos of stations that have been poorly sited. The GISS algorithm attempts to correct for this. If it does a good job this would be a small problem. If it does a bad job this issue is a bigger problem.
Steve has shown that for many individual stations the GISS algorithm gives strange results.
However do these factors cause a detectable bias in the overall answer?
The only analysis I know of along these lines is the trend calculation that John V initiated, and Steve refined, based on a set of stations in the USA that were assessed as being good quality. This analysis showed good agreement with the GISS results for USA. My understanding is that Steve has objected to this being called a ‘validation’ of the GISS temperature trend as it applies to a small set of data (about 60 stations I think), in a limited geographical area (USA). Also GISS algorithms are evidently different for the rest of the world.
Also if we compare GISS trends to other temperature trends we see that the difference is very small. So either GISS is not biased or all temperature trends have the same bias. A systematic bias could conceivably apply to all temperature series – particularly if its a result of poor station siting or changes in instrumentation. I think GISS and CRU are both based off the same raw station data? And satellite measurements are callibrated to match the same station data?
Is there any other evidence that should be considered to make an assessment of whether GISS is baised or not?
REPLY: The work that John V did was terribly premature. Only 17 CRN1,2 stations with poor geographic distribution in the USA was used to arrive at that “good agreement”. The effort was rushed, mostly to quickly find some baton to beat up the surfacestations.org effort with. Since then JohnV has not done anything else in analysis, and that rumor you circulate still stands. Meanwhile my volunteers and I continue to collect more stations so that a complete analysis can be done.

June 24, 2008 6:50 pm

Anthony said: “REPLY: Jack, here is the definition. Plus a training video on SPLODE -Anthony”
Ho ho ho!

Bill Marsh
June 24, 2008 7:00 pm

Mostly this makes my head hurt, but it seems to me that it is very difficult for the GISS algorithim to ‘correct’ for siting issues that are pretty much unknown to the developer of the algorithim.
I always had issues in software development with effort estimations that tried to project completion time for development of modules that had unknown qualities/challenges. Pretty much it was a guess wrapped in fancy mathematics, but at its core it was still a SWAG (and rarely, if ever does it seem to be even close to correct).
To many unknowns to be able to make corrections with any confidence.

D Buller
June 24, 2008 7:11 pm

Atmoz, et al:
It is my impression that over the last 29 years, GISS trends have been similar to other measurement trends, and that the GISS methodology has been examined more than the others. However, I am more skeptical of GISS than others. Even though the GISS trend has been similar, it still appears to be a lttile bit higer than the others. Personal biases at HadCrut make its trend a bit suspicious similar to GISS, and HadCrut’s trend over 29 years is most like GISS. Persopnal beliefs at UAH also exist, but they are opposite of those at RSS, and there appears to be a great deal professional exchange between the two MSU sites — UAH even helped RSS correct its data when it was undermeasuring temperatures. I trust RSS and UAH the most. HOWEVER, the big issue with GISS (and to some degree HadCrut) is what they do to temperatures before the 29 years. They seem to be forever decreasing temperatures in the 1930s. That is the biggest problem with GISS. And of course UAH and RSS do not go back that far.

Earle Williams
June 24, 2008 7:19 pm

Atmoz in his assessment of the non-bias of HISS neglects the corrections applied in GISS to temperature data pre-dating the satellite era. Over the time period of 1979 to current GISS is well within spitting range of the other temperature metrics. Prior to 1979, well, caveat emptor.

Earle Williams
June 24, 2008 7:19 pm

Bah! HISS == GISS!

Bill Illis
June 24, 2008 7:22 pm

The ONLY reason why GISS, Hadley and the NOAA temp figures agree with the other measures now is because UAH and RSS temp measurements exist.
We now have an independent third party audit committee and these agencies know they have to be reasonably close to the third party audit committee figures or they will lose all their credibility.
Of course, the audit committee is only available for 1979-on so the biased agencies have been forced to “adjust’ the pre-1979 data so that is shows the appropriate level of warming.
Even the Urban Heat Island “adjustment” which should reduce the trend for a large metropolitan centres by up to 3.0C, has a roughly equal number of positive and negative adjustments that add up to a paltry 0.05C on average. Sorry, that is completely illogical.
We cannot rely on the pre-1979 data. For the post-1979 data, just throw out the biased numbers and the rely on the third party audit committee.

June 24, 2008 7:38 pm

I was with her right up to that point, but don’t see how what she concludes there is supported by what she has done.

Hi. My belief that warming will resume is not based on the data in that post. It is based on some understanding of radiative physics. GHG’s should result in at least some warming. Also, the trend over the past century is up.
It is possible to do a t-test to compare trends during periods to see if the trend is “period A” is inconsistent with the trend in “period B”. I haven’t shown that in this post. But if you click to the bar-and-whiskers post, you can see that there are broad ranges of trends that overlap. It’s entirely possible to show the very large uncertainty bounds for the current periods overlaps the uncertainty bounds for say, 1990-2000.
That means the trends for the two periods could very well be the same as each other. But that would suggest the current periods is a “low” relative to the true underlying trend, and the other period is a “high” relative to the true underlying trend. Truth would be somewhere in between.
Of course, doing a test like this presupposes that in some sense the “ensemble average” for some sort of population of all possible weather noise trajectories exist and has a linear trend. Still, the simplifying assumption is worth making simply to illustrate.
I guess I may have to show the comparison to clarify.

Todd Martin
June 24, 2008 7:51 pm

How can one even contemplate throwing out St. Hansen’s GISS data. Given that temperature history is rewritten and rewritten again in Hansen’s universe, the record is never sufficiently stationary to get a grip on and toss it out.
Further, summarily tossing it out would torpedo the fabulous work that Steve McIntyre, Anthony, and others are doing in exposing GISS malfeasance and rank incompetence.

Fred Nieuwenhuis
June 24, 2008 7:54 pm

As previous poster commented, a lot of this statistical theory is flying over my head. But the gist of it would be that, although the central trends for most of the datasets are negative, it is the variability in each dataset that determines the +/- (uncertainty), and since the positive uncertainty allows for a neutral trend, then AGW is proven? I find it astounding that UAH dataset has the most negative central trend (using OLS) but has the largest +/-, so therefore it fails to reject an overall + 2C/Cen, thus AGW theory is sound??
Secondly, I find the greatest pity when regarding datasets is the fact that satellite records don’t go back as far as surface records. It has been shown that there is relative corelation between surface and satellite datasets. However, it is exactly those pre-satellite era records which are the most suspect in non-western countries both in terms of coverage and accuracy, not to mention the adjustment that the GISS SPLODE++ makes on those iffy records.
Thirdly, the current spread between Sat. and Surface datasets could be due to the dramatic drop in current surface station numbers. Looking at http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/station_data/ , the number of stations and coverage do not match. From a Canadian perspective, there are VERY few, if any, stations that GISS uses current, 2004-2008 data. So practically speaking, it is not just the polar regions that GISS is estimating, but essentially all of Canada as well.

Pofarmer
June 24, 2008 8:04 pm

I agree with Bill F above.
How can Lucia falsify all of the IPCC theories and still say that AGW is the correct theory? That just doesn’t make any sense. The numbers say one thing, but, by golly we will just ignore them. More than one business has gone bankrupt that way.

REX
June 24, 2008 9:01 pm

What nobody seems to have considered is that temperatures may actually DECLINE over the next 10-100 years?

Jeff Alberts
June 24, 2008 9:28 pm

I say we adjust GISS adjustments based on neighbor datasets within 4 orders of magnitude. We’ll use a “the lights are on but nobody’s home” approach to assess how much to adjust the GISS data based on the other remaining datasets.

Michael Hauber
June 24, 2008 9:40 pm

Ok the ‘good agreement’ reached by John V with GISS may be based on only 17 stations.
Is there any other better analysis of the accuracy or bias of the GISS temperature trend with a larger set of stations?
And I personally would never use this analysis or anything else as a baton to beat up surfacestations.org. I think it can only help science to actually go out there and photograph the stations so that a better understanding of any errors in our climate data can be gained.

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