The Effect of a Colder Solid’s Thermal Radiation on a Warmer Solid Exposed to Sunlight

experiments performed July 10th 2024

by Dale Cloudman

Abstract

It is experimentally shown that the thermal radiation from a transparent, colder solid has the capacity to influence a solid warmer than it to become even warmer, under the right circumstances. This dispels the critique of the greenhouse effect that, as heat only flows from hot to cold, the effect is thermodynamically impossible. Even so, significant portions of the theory of the greenhouse effect remain experimentally unproven, signaling caution rather than uncritical acceptance of the theory.

Introduction

A long-running debate about the physical reality of the greenhouse effect centers around whether the thermal radiation from the colder atmosphere can possibly have a warming effect on the warmer Earth’s surface. The argument goes as follows: as heat only flows from hot to cold, the radiation emitted by a colder object cannot possibly cause a warmer object to become warmer. It might have a reduced cooling effect, but under no circumstances can it result in a warming effect.

The most salient features of such debates are that neither side provides experimental evidence in their defense, and that the debates frequently devolve into heated arguments, which is generally an indicator that solid arguments are lacking. As genuine scientific knowledge is acquired via experimentation performed in physical reality, and not theory or “experiments” (sic!) consisting of computer simulations, I sought to settle the debate once and for all with a properly-performed experiment.

I constructed a de Saussure-style hotbox, above which I placed a clear glass plate separated by a good amount of space. I pointed it towards the Sun, and, left to its own devices, the bottom of the box got to around 100ºC, with the glass plate getting to around 30ºC. I then swapped the glass plate with an identical one that was pre-heated to 60-70ºC, and the result was unmistakable: the already much hotter bottom of the box got even hotter as a result. I ruled out any possible conductive or convective effects, concluding it was due to increased thermal radiation coming from the +30-40ºC warmer glass plate. Although this neatly dispels this particular critique of the greenhouse effect, significant obstacles remain before being able to accept that the greenhouse effect behaves as-described.

The Demonstration

The apparatus (Figure 1, Figure 2) consists of a hotbox made of styrofoam, with the inside floor being cardboard and the inside walls and floors spray-painted black. Two layers of thin plastic polyethylene film suppress convection with the outside air. Surrounding these is another piece of styrofoam to further prevent heat loss through the sides. Cotton padding between the styrofoam pieces provides further insulation.

On top of the hotbox are two styrofoam walls that support an extra-clear glass plate on top. This is the glass that is swapped with an identical, hotter version during the experiment. A middle mount point allows the optional mounting of another plate in the middle.

Temperatures are measured with Type K thermocouples, labeled and color-coded for ease of reference. Styrofoam pieces immediately above yet not touching them serve as radiation shields. The solar insolation is measured with an Apogee SP-510-SS pyranometer, and the net infrared gain or loss is measured with an Apogee SL-510-SS pyrgeometer.

I pointed the apparatus at the sun and let it heat up on its own. In the meantime, I set aside an identical extra-clear glass plate, on top of which I placed an aluminum plate with a pot of water on top. An immersion heater kept the water temperature at a constant 80-90ºC, which heat diffused downwards to heat the glass plate.

Once the bottom plate exceeded 100ºC, I swapped the cool glass with the hot glass, first by hovering the hot glass above it, then removing the cool glass and placing the hot glass in the same position. This swapping technique provides a dip in measured solar insolation due to both glasses absorbing the sunlight rather than just one. This clearly delineates the swaps, and ensures there is no extra heating effect due to slightly higher insolation that would happen if we first removed one glass and then replaced it with the other glass.

I performed five swaps as above, with Tcoolglass measuring 30-38ºC and Thotglass measuring between 67-75ºC at the start of the swaps. The result was clear and unambiguous in every case: Tbottom shot up rapidly in response. The following two runs are representative (Figure 3):

As is evident, before the first swap on the graph, Tbottom was increasing at a certain steady pace. After the swap to the hot glass (delineated by the purple vertical line), the rate of increase rapidly shot up. Once swapped back to the cool glass (delineated by the gray vertical line), Tbottom stabilized around 108ºC. It remained there for ~5 minutes, after which another swap caused it to increase rapidly again.

It is notable that at the exact moment of the swaps, the net infrared radiation Net IR picked up by the pyrgeometer remains negative yet increases. That is, the bottom’s radiative cooling is measurably lessened as a result of this swap.

To rule out differences between the two glass plates, such as the possibility of slightly more solar insolation which could cause a temperature change, I did two swaps with both glass plates at around the same temperature. With these swaps, no difference was observed in the evolution of Tbottom or in the Net IR.

Confirming the Radiative Nature of the Effect

It is important to rule out any convective effects as having caused the increase. The hotter glass will, of course, heat the air around it as well. How do we know that Tbottom didn’t get hotter because the hotter glass heated the air in-between, which then heated the thin plastic films, which then reduced the convective loss of the bottom and caused its temperature to increase?

The evidence is three-fold. First, we can observe that Tlowair did not noticeably increase as a result of the swap. Indeed, it was warmer before the swap than after (Figure 4):

Second, by including Tthin1 and Tthin2 in the graph, we can see that Tbottom increased first, and only nearly half a minute later did Tthin1 start to increase, soon after which Tthin2 increased as well (Figure 5). Thus the temperature increase started from bottom to top, not from top to bottom, meaning the observed increase could not be due to the air being heated from the top. 

Third, I repeated the experiments, but with a thin borosilicate plate mounted in the middle of the apparatus (Figure 6). Borosilicate is highly absorbent of infrared radiation. If the effect is radiative, we would expect the borosilicate to absorb any extra thermal radiation from the hotter glass, preventing Tbottom from increasing. This is precisely what happened. During these runs, the Net IR did not change when the hotter glass was swapped in, nor did Tbottom respond to the swaps.

Thus we have to conclude that the increased thermal radiation from the hotter glass is what caused the bottom to increase in temperature, even though the hotter glass itself was much cooler than the bottom.

Analysis

How does this not violate the laws of thermodynamics, wherein heat only flows from hot to cold? The answer is that one must consider all the heat flows in the system. When Tbottom is at a steady temperature around 108ºC, it is because the amount of heat it is gaining from all sources is equal to the amount of heat it is losing to all sinks. At that temperature, the only heat it is gaining is from the sunlight, which is actually the thermal radiation emanating from our nearby star with its surface temperature of 5900K. It is at the same time losing heat conductively with the bottom of the hotbox and the walls, convectively with the air in the box, and radiatively with the plastic wrap layers, the glass, and the sky above. The hotbox itself is also losing heat convectively with the outside air.

When the hotter glass is swapped in, effectively the only change is that now the bottom is losing less heat radiatively to the glass. With all else being equal, it is thus now gaining more heat from the sunlight than it is losing to all other sources, and the result is an increase in temperature. Notably, without the much hotter sun as a heat source, the increase in temperature would not be observed; only a reduced cooling effect would occur.

Conclusion

There are several key differences between the experiment performed here and the theorized radiative greenhouse effect, such that this experiment does not serve as verification of the latter.

  1. The hotbox is heavily insulated and enclosed to suppress convective heat loss. By contrast, the majority of the heat loss by the Earth’s surface is due to convective loss to the air.
  2. The temperature ranges are different, with the Earth’s surface being around 15ºC and the air ranging from 15ºC to -55ºC with increasing altitude, contrasted with 100ºC for the black bottom and 30-70ºC for the glass.
  3. The colder object is a solid plate of glass as opposed to a column of atmospheric air, i.e. a large volume of gas.
  4. The warmer object is a uniform pitch-black plate, as distinct from the Earth’s surface with its varied terrain, soil, plant, foliage, ice, snow, water, etc. 
  5. The greenhouse effect is due to the air becoming more absorbent of and emissive of thermal radiation at the same temperature, while the experimental result was due to the colder object retaining the same emissive properties yet becoming hotter.
  6. The observed time duration was minimal and no conclusions can be drawn about the total magnitude of the effect or what effects it may have in the long run.

    Indeed, the greenhouse effect theory has a large gap when it comes to the empirical demonstration of the greenhouse effect’s total effect on surface temperatures. It largely relies on a simplified calculation that shows the Earth’s average temperature would be -18ºC without any atmosphere. This calculation even includes the albedo effect of clouds, which would not be present without an atmosphere. Further it ignores all the distinctions listed above, and doesn’t account for the adiabatic lapse rate, which is the main reason why the bottom of the grand canyon is +50ºC warmer on average than the peak of Mount Everest. Such a lapse rate occurs entirely due to non-radiative effects, and therefore would have some effect even if the air were fully transparent to infrared radiation.
  7. The observed temperature increase here was due to swapping in a hotter glass plate that was externally heated by another heat source (i.e. neither the sun nor the black bottom). This is in contrast with the greenhouse effect, where the atmosphere’s thermal radiation that is theorized to result in a much warmer surface temperature, is initially warmed by the surface itself. This gives the appearance that it presents a situation where an object is able to heat itself up with its own heat – first the atmosphere at the same temperature emits thermal radiation according to its own temperature, which then results in a warmer surface, that then in turn heats the atmosphere further, etc., in a (diminishing) feedback loop.

    Although the experiment performed here indicates that the presence of the sun ought to make this possible, and Infrared Halogens appear to exploit an analogous mechanism to reduce energy consumption, an experiment should be done to confirm this is the case. It is notable that past experiments have failed to definitively show a powerful effect: R W Wood’s 1909 experiment showed “scarcely a difference of one degree” between two hotboxes, one with a radiatively-absorbent glass lid and one with a radiatively-transparent rock salt lid, where we would expect the radiatively-absorbent lid to result in a much hotter temperature due its higher radiative emissions as well. More recently, a re-do of Wood’s experiment “performed more carefully” by Pratt actually replicated the result, despite being heavily critical of Wood: a difference of 1.1ºC between the floor of a hotbox with a glass lid vs one with a rock salt lid. Pratt further showed that the glass lid was actually 6.2ºC hotter than the rock salt lid. This further complicates the analysis as convective heat transfer is proportional to temperature difference and indicates the +1.1ºC result is at least in part due to reduction of convective heat loss.
  8. Finally, even if the basic greenhouse effect were to be conclusively demonstrated, it is well-known that the current levels of CO2 are already saturated with regards to higher concentrations causing higher thermal emissions. The enhanced greenhouse effect is said to occur due to the much colder higher-altitude layers of the atmosphere absorbing and emitting more thermal radiation, thus having a cascading effect on the air immediately below it, which in turn has an effect on the air below, and so on up to the surface. In other words, the hotter absorbing element in the enhanced greenhouse effect is also atmospheric air, and not a solid object. This provides further complications as atmospheric air can freely travel vertically up and down, and hot air tends to expand and rise.

In conclusion, although the thermodynamic possibility of colder objects causing warmer objects to increase in temperature has finally been conclusively demonstrated, a lack of experimental verification of other facets of the greenhouse effect theory warrants caution before accepting its conclusions.

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August 1, 2024 1:42 am

I found another picture

1000000897
Paul B
August 1, 2024 4:07 am

The adherants of the ‘cold object can’t heat a warm object’ argument conflate heat and radiation. Indeed, the net flow of heat will always be from hot to cold, but (a big big but) infrared radiation is NOT heat. It is electromagnetic energy flow, and it flows any place it chooses.

When it hits something it is absorbed according to the objects albedo, adding energy to said object. It is NOT adding heat. It is adding energy. Any effect as to the net average energy of said object will be observed as an increase in temperature.

I often hear the argument that ‘low’ energy radiation has no effect on ‘higher’ energy objects. This is a fallacy of gigantic proportion. It implies that an object’s albedo is a function of temperature, which magically flips to 1.00 when it encounters lower energy radiation.

I enjoyed reading about the experiment but it proves something that should need no proof.

bdgwx
Reply to  Paul B
August 1, 2024 7:26 am

That’s part of it. I think another part of it is that many people misrepresent the 2nd law of thermodynamics by saying it prohibits heat flowing from cold to hot under all circumstances which is obviously not true.

Reply to  bdgwx
August 1, 2024 3:28 pm

Heat can’t flow from cold to hot without some external source doing work to create the movement.

If heat could flow from a cold object to a hotter object by itself with no external source performing work then you would have the perfect perpetual motion machine. Not only that but the concept of the ultimate heat death of the univere, i.e. entropy = 0, would be refuted.

Reply to  Tim Gorman
August 1, 2024 3:47 pm

I think you mean the change in entropy will be zero. The so-called heat death of the Universe is when equilibrium is reached and entropy will be a maximum.

Reply to  Jim Masterson
August 1, 2024 4:11 pm

bwx keeps talking about heat pumps as an example of “heat flowing from cold to hot”, but neglects to mention the heat pump needs energy from an external source going into the compressor in order to accomplish the feat.

He doesn’t understand the Carnot Cycle.

Reply to  Jim Masterson
August 1, 2024 4:49 pm

Thanks for the correction! Yep, entropy will be at max!

Reply to  Paul B
August 2, 2024 3:10 pm

Any molecule that is at energy state 1 will not absorb energy that is at less than that.

Tom Shula
August 1, 2024 8:09 am

To Dale, the author. A very thoughtful and interesting experiment.

I am curious. What happens to the output of the pyrgeometer if it is stable and you place a piece of aluminum foil over the dome to block all incoming radiation?

Dale Cloudman
Reply to  Tom Shula
August 2, 2024 3:59 am

If I enclose the pyrgeometer in a cavity (whether by aluminum foil or something else) and the cavity temperature is stable, the “Net IR” output goes to zero

Tom Shula
Reply to  Dale Cloudman
August 3, 2024 10:44 am

Thanks for responding, Dale. I appreciate it. I assume it means that on the chart in your article the IR datum in yellow would go to the bottom of the chart? I understand how the pyrometer works, just confirming “net radiation.”

FWIW, I don’t agree with your conclusions but kudos to you. I can see from your work that you are a thoughtful guy and I’m impressed that you invested in the equipment.

No one deserves the kind of treatment you are getting here. I have experienced it myself.

There are a few open minds here who would prefer a civil, objective technical discourse on the merits and shortcomings of a work, but they are few and far between. Unfortunately, there are far too many other voices that turn it into a s#!tshow.

i have come to the conclusion that in the space of the climate discussion, those who are active can be placed into four groups:

Those who believe everything is bad and that it’s a disaster.Those who believe in the GHE and are not willing to challenge its existence. They just want to argue about the impact.Those who believe in the GHE, but are open to other perspectives.Those who don’t accept the GHE.I am a member of group 4. Unfortunately, all of public debate is between group 1 and 2.

Groups 1 and 2 are both part of the “settled science” crowd, two branches of the same cult. We need to find a place where most are in group 3 or group 4.

Dale Cloudman
Reply to  Tom Shula
August 4, 2024 3:18 am

Thanks for responding, Dale. I appreciate it. I assume it means that on the chart in your article the IR datum in yellow would go to the bottom of the chart? I understand how the pyrometer works, just confirming “net radiation.””

You mean Figure 3? The Y Axis for the Net IR is the leftmost one. The yellow line on that chart ranges between -260 to -220. If it were to move to 0 it would go almost to the top of the chart (3rd minor horizontal grid line from the top).

FWIW I’m also a member of Group 4, I am highly skeptical. The actual answer may lie somewhere between 2 and 4. I’m appalled nobody has done these experiments properly yet, it’s been 200 years already. We will see how far I get 🙂

Sparta Nova 4
August 1, 2024 9:18 am

There is a difference between electromagnetic energy, such as sunlight and IR, and thermal energy.
electromagnetic energy does not depend on temperature. This difference was discovered by Eunice Foote in the 1850s.

Thermal energy flows from hot to cold and that energy flow is called heat. The rate of flow is a simple equation. (T1-T0)/Rt which is identical to electric current (V1-V0)/R. The flow is facilitated by exchanges of momentum between molecules.

By involving the sunlight in the experiment and not segregating the thermal energy flows, it does not prove that thermal energy can flow from cold to hot. It does not prove it possible to violate thermodynamics.

The biggest problem is language. Thermal radiation needs to be kicked to the curb. Trapped heat, also. Run-away greenhouse effect, greenhouse gas, tipping points, thermalizing, and the list goes on.

It’s not what we know that should worry us. It’s what we don’t know and we do not know 1% of what is needed to understand how atmosphere, oceans, land, moon, sun, and the cosmos all interplay.

Tom Shula
Reply to  Sparta Nova 4
August 1, 2024 9:51 am

It’s not that thermal radiation needs to be kicked to the curb, it’s that most don’t understand that it has a strict definition.

Thermal radiation is a property of condensed matter and it results from a combination of electronic, molecular, and lattice vibrations that result in the emission of a CONTINUOUS SPECTRUM of radiant energy.

The atmosphere does not, because it cannot, emit thermal radiation.

The core flaw of radiative transfer theory is that it conflates Kirchhoff’s law of radiation for condensed matter and applies it to IR active gas molecules in the atmosphere.

if you don’t believe that, listen to Manabe’s Nobel acceptance speech. He states explicitly that this is done.

https://youtu.be/lZuKApZoZxM?si=TMfVIlQmbgr6-GHC

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  Tom Shula
August 1, 2024 10:32 am

My apologies. I meant heat radiation.
Heat radiation is all too often conflated with IR.

Reply to  Tom Shula
August 3, 2024 7:15 am

I noted the definition the other day in Willis’ article.

Tom Shula
Reply to  mkelly
August 3, 2024 10:47 am

Which definition?

Reply to  Sparta Nova 4
August 1, 2024 10:01 am

I remember a very strange person during the early days of network communication who was enamored with the planet Venus, and tried to figure a way to live there (yes, he was serious). His solution? A dirigible floating through the clouds, insulated with OvGlove material. He could not understand that a thermal insulator cannot block heat flow entirely. (This was only one of the problems of course.)

After reading some of the things written here, I am reminded of the OvGlove dirigible.

JCM
Reply to  Sparta Nova 4
August 1, 2024 10:07 am

The increased radiative cooling rate to space associated with higher temperature is essential to understand the absence of a run-away greenhouse effect.

Additionally, variations in the radiative cooling of the atmosphere to space is balanced by variations in the (turbulent) thermodynamic heat transport.

Variations in turbulent flux, net upwards, balanced by variations in radiative cooling to space, is a function of the temperature difference between the thermodynamic surface temperature (Ts) and the planetary radiating temperature observed from space (Tr)

The radiating temperature to space limits the atmospheric heat transport. If the outgoing radiation temperature were to decrease, this will be balanced by increased atmospheric heat transport. A steady state Ts-Tr arises which is independent from variations in atmospheric composition. This steady state is synonymous with greenhouse effect intensity.

real bob boder
August 1, 2024 2:28 pm

While I in general agree that with the your argument here. 2 quick points

1 when you add the warmer plate you are actually adding a new heat source because it is out of equilibrium with the system.

2 when you say your colder glass is raising the temperature of the bottom glass it’s true to an extent but only until they find equilibrium with the energy source and since you have added a new source it’s a bit fergazi.

ultimately you are correct there is energy flow from the colder to hotter plate the colder plate does not warmer the hotter plate it speeds or lowers the rate at which they find equilibrium.

ferdberple
August 1, 2024 5:00 pm

Take two balls rolling on a pool table. Depending upon the angle of collision, the slower moving ball can slow down while the faster moving ball speeds up.

Since kinetic energy determines temperature, the colder object has warmed the warmer object.

However, this is statistically rare as compared to the more likely collision cooling the warm object and warming the cooler object. Thus over time temperatures tend to average.

Reply to  ferdberple
August 2, 2024 5:09 am

I don’t believe individual molecules are considered to have a temperature, they have kinetic energy but not temperature. Temperature is determined by the kinetic energy of a collection of molecules, e.g. a pool ball. Did the temperature of either pool ball change or did just the kinetic energy change?

Reply to  ferdberple
August 3, 2024 6:19 am

The five ideas behind kinetic theory of gases.

  1. A gas is composed of a large number of particles called molecules (whether monatomic or polyatomic) that are in constant random motion.
  2. Because the distance between gas molecules is much greater than the size of the molecules, the volume of the molecules is negligible.
  3. Intermolecular interactions, whether repulsive or attractive, are so weak that they are also negligible.
  4. Gas molecules collide with one another and with the walls of the container, but these collisions are perfectly elastic; that is, they do not change the average kinetic energy of the molecules. 
  5. The average kinetic energy of the molecules of any gas depends on only the temperature, and at a given temperature, all gaseous molecules have exactly the same average kinetic energy.
Reply to  mkelly
August 3, 2024 7:15 am

Thank you! Lots to chew on in those.

August 2, 2024 2:21 am

Well done with the experiment. Right or wrong, it has triggered a good discussion.

I would have preferred a modified experiment.

Instead of a heated glass plate, I would have liked to see a plastic ‘tank’ on place of said glass plate. The sealed tank initially filled with dry nitrogen, and measure the temperature rise. The flush the tank with pure CO2 and measure the temperature rise.

I know that would have removed some simplicity, but it may have satisfied the ‘it’s not earth’s atmosphere’ people.

Left to my own devices I would create 2 resistors, same physical size, a few centimeters or inches apart. Connect each resistor to a USB plug (5v). Monitor temperature of both Ŕ’s.

With one on, record temp, switch 2nd R on Monitor temp of both.

With a good choice of value for ohms of each resistor, we could arrange a temperature rise of 40C in one and 20C I the other and see what happens.

Oh! What about convection etc.

Well just place a USB fan close to the resistors to blow air away from BOTH resistors leaving only radiation as the means of energy transfer.

Dale Cloudman
Reply to  Steve Richards
August 2, 2024 4:01 am

I do actually want to perform it with gas. Tricky that any rigid plastic seems to absorb IR quite readily. It may be doable with thin plastic film. It will definitely be interesting to see what happens!

son of mulder
August 3, 2024 1:59 pm

Adding CO2 is like insulation, it slows cooling so Tmin becomes higher. Removing SO2 let’s more sunlight in and raises Tmax. The temperature everybody goes on about is (Tmax+Tmin)/2.

Reply to  son of mulder
August 3, 2024 3:17 pm

(tmax + tmin)/2 is a mid-range temperature, it is not an average. Once you start using (tmax + tmin)/2 you have lost any ability to tell what is affecting it. (Tmid-range1 – Tmidrange2), i.e. an anomaly, becomes useless for making sound judgements since you can’t tell what caused the change.

astonerii
August 8, 2024 5:13 pm

I would recommend the following change to your setup.

Have 2 layers of glass plates.

Instead of using the sun, use a thermal lamp that you can ensure is constant power.

The middle layer glass plate does not get swapped out when you decide to swap out the colder one for the hotter one. This prevents any change in circulation caused by the hotter glass plate.