(Note – I saved this for the weekend, when people who might read this would likely be more relaxed. This is not the usual fare for WUWT, but it is something that is revealing, enlightening, entertaining, and educational, while at the same time sad and sunny all at once. If you want science, skip this article. If you want a perspective on life, read on – Anthony)
Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Warning: Viewer discretion advised. This post discusses adult themes and content. Oh, not the usual adult themes we get on TV, like D: Suggestive Dialogue or V: Violence. Instead, it is a discussion of the following well-known wanted criminal:
Figure 1. The one with many names … the Pale Rider. The Grim Reaper. The Angel Of Death. Thanatos. Azrael. Cronus.
I’ve been thinking a lot about death lately. The gorgeous ex-fiancee is a Family Nurse Practitioner, and she and I have been taking care of her 86-year-old father in his final illness. “Billy”, that’s what the rest of the guys in the band always called him, so that’s what I called him when I came to be friends and play music with him over the past four years. He was a jazz drummer his whole life, and a very good one. Having had the honor of playing music with him myself, I can testify that he was a very skillful, fun, and inventive percussionist. But when he came out of the hospital back in February, he hung up his sticks and said that was it. His time with music was over. I knew then that his days were short. So we’ve been giving him all the love and support possible in the face of his approaching death.
Here in the developed world, we tend to distance ourselves from death. But in the third world, it is ever-present. The first dead man I ever saw who wasn’t rouged, perfumed, and embalmed was on a side street in Trench Town, a dirt-poor, less than fragrant, and more than turbulent suburb of Kingston, Jamaica. It was a strange scene.
Trench Town is not a good place to be at night. Even in the middle of a hot afternoon, it’s a place where you feel a need to take an occasional look over your shoulder. I was walking down the street, the only melanin-deficient guy in sight. (I hear that the new PC term is “melanin-challenged”, by the way, to avoid hurting people’s feelings by making them feel deficient … but then I’ve never been politically correct.)
In any case, halfway down the block, a man was lying in the gutter. At first I thought he was just drunk and sleeping it off, until I got nearer, and I saw he was lying in the proverbial pool of blood. I remember particularly the sound of the flies. I was reminded of when I used to kill and butcher cows and sheep and other animals out in the farmers’ fields for a living, and how fast the flies would appear. Seeing that man lying dead in a cloud of flies, in the middle of just another average city afternoon, was a shock to me. The cities I was accustomed to back then didn’t feature much in the way of dead bodies in the gutter. I was beyond surprise.
But the bigger shock was the reaction of the people in the street. By and large it was ho, hum, another day in the life, step over his corpse and keep going, Many people looked once and didn’t give him a second glance. The public level of concern seemed to be on the order of “It’s the tropics, mon, cover him up ‘fore he stinks”.
I realized then that in such places down at the bottom of the economic ladder, the death of a stranger is no big deal. Oh, I don’t mean that people don’t mourn or grieve their loved ones the way it happens in the industrialized countries. That’s the same everywhere. But in countries where death is more common, countries where most families have lost a child, countries where malaria or some other tropical fever takes away the young and otherwise healthy, everyone lives in much closer proximity and familiarity with death and the dead. Like the song says about a tropical murder,
Nobody talks about it no more, though it happened just a week ago. But people get by and people get high, in the tropics, they come, and they go.
A decade later in the Solomon Islands, my good friend Willie died after a long wasting illness. Willie was a Solomon Islander who was loved by all, and in those fractious, jealous, contentious islands, that says a lot. There was no funeral home in the Solomons then, may not be one now. So family and friends do everything. Willie died in “Number 9”, which is rumored to be a hospital. In reality it is a collection of buildings left over from World War II that vaguely resembles a hospital. From the curbside, that is. If you don’t focus too closely.
I went there as soon as I heard Willie had died. Up close, it’s an ancient, sad collection of sticky hot rooms baking in the sun, most without even fans to cool the patients. I was already sweating before I got inside.
When I went in the room, Willie’s wife was there, weeping. I joined her. We spoke for a bit. She had brought his clothes, she said, to dress him. She wept. I wept. She made no move to dress him. We sweated. We waited. Solomon Islanders are good at that.
After a while, I asked if she wanted help dressing him. Oh, yes, she said. I stood up, and walked over and lifted the sheet off his legs … ah, the legs that used to run had been replaced by bone and parchment. I lifted them up one by one. They were almost weightless. She and I slid them into his pants. Dressing a dead man proved to be much harder than I thought. Perhaps unsurprisingly, their level of cooperation is quite low. I had the crazy urge to apologize to him for moving his legs. Finally the pants were on. After that it was easier. With his pants on, I could take off the sheet entirely. We put his shirt on. I’d been very close with him for two years. I’d never seen either the pants or the shirt before. My sense was that they were “Solomons new”, meaning bought from a Chinese store which imports used clothing by the bale. Willie looked good in his new outfit. I hugged his wife, and left her to her sorrow. It was the first time I had ever touched a dead body.
Tropical death plays no favorites. My friend Turk was in his forties, a local airline pilot. He went into Number 9 to have a doctor look at his hemorrhoids, and never came out … you learn to watch your step very carefully on small tropical islands, and in particular, do your best to never step into a “hospital”.
I was back in the US when my father died. The gorgeous ex-fiancee was his nurse in his final days. He refused an operation for his bladder cancer. Said he wouldn’t leave my beloved stepmother broke, and besides, he’d done everything he wanted to do. He’d been a well-known architect, made money, built the house he lived in, his kids all loved him, things were getting painful, there wasn’t much left to keep him here. Enough, he said. He didn’t want to go to the hospital, he wanted to die at home.
Sadly, bladder cancer is a painful way to die. When the pain got bad, he asked me to see if I could get some pills that he could take to end his life. He was in chronic intermittent but intense pain. I did not want to, but I had no choice, and I set out to do that. I would have said that I could have found the pills, because I’ve always knows lots of people with strange proclivities. But for whatever reason, I was unable to find any downers. I looked for reds, or any kind of barbiturates. I asked my friends in low places and I never got more than a couple of pills.
And so each time I saw my Dad again, and the pain was even worse, I had to confess that I had failed him. It was gut-wrenching, worse each time. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone.
The night that he died, the gorgeous ex-fiancee and I went to his house. Again I had to tell him that I hadn’t found the pills … dear friends, he smiled and said what he’d said the other times, that it was OK. It broke my heart. I hugged him and turned away so he couldn’t see my face.
That night I found out how thin the line is between tragedy and comedy. I had brought my guitar, because I knew Dad always loved to hear any of his kids play music. I sat on his bed. He was moaning as the waves of pain rolled over him. I sang for him the songs of his childhood that I knew he loved. I sang him the songs of my childhood that he used to sing to me, as he shifted restlessly and groaned in pain. Finally I was weeping too hard to go on singing, but I kept playing the guitar for a bit. And then I broke down entirely, and the music stopped. I couldn’t play another chord.
He opened his eyes, and he smiled his smile that went so deep, and he said “Oh please, don’t stop playing … I swear I’m not moaning on account of your music!”
We both broke up laughing. I didn’t know I could laugh and weep at the same time. I don’t know how he could laugh and moan at the same time. He fell asleep with without saying another word as I played and wept. What can you do with a man like that?
I left at around ten that night and went home. The gorgeous ex-fiancee said she thought she should spend the night with him. I got up at four thirty and went out commercial fishing, trolling for salmon. Around noon, my dear nurse called on the ship’s radio. I knew what the message was before I got to the microphone. I was glad I was on the ocean. I kept fishing, it calmed and soothed me. I was fishing with my long-time shipmate and fishing partner. He understood my silence.
My mom’s death, on the other hand, surprised everyone. When she knew she was dying of lung cancer, she wrote and asked me to come see her. I was in the Solomon Islands at the time, but that’s not a request you can ignore. I flew to Sedona, Arizona, where she was parking the RV she’d lived in for four years by herself, traveling all around the US. She was 69 at the time. I found out something strange. The main reason she wanted to see me was to find out whether I took my dad’s side of the ancient argument and whether, like him, I blamed her regarding their divorce thirty-four years earlier … go figure. She wanted absolution from me, or at least to know that I didn’t blame her for what happened, thirty plus years in the past.
I told her the truth, that I didn’t have a dog in their fight. I said that I used to think that one or the other of them had done wrong, and to be sure they had each caused the other one a lot of grief and sorrow, they had hurt each other deeply. But by then, I was old enough to know that both of them were just fools whose intentions were good, and that they had both striven in their own way to make it work. The fact that they couldn’t make it work was not important, I knew they’d both given it their best shot. She liked that, and she sent me on my way.
About a week later, she took a fistful of pills and was found dead in the morning. I was glad she found the pills somewhere, lung cancer’s not a good way to go. I was even gladder that she hadn’t asked me to find them for her. The family believed for years that I’d given her the pills because I’d visited just before her death, and they knew I’d tried to find pills for my dad. But I hadn’t given her anything but love and support, as best as I knew how, and at the end of the day no one ever knew where she got the pills.
Later, when we were living again in Fiji, my daughter was about 12. One night, the matriarch of a Fijian family I worked with died. Her daughter, grand-daughter, and son-in-law all worked alongside me for the same company. I took my daughter to the wake, which was the very next day. Without embalmers, tropical funerals are never delayed long. It was late, there were only a few people still there. The night was warm and enfolding. In back of the house was a wooden table. It was spread with a nice cloth. The matriarch lay in state on the table. The family welcomed us. We gave them our best wishes and condolences. I had told my daughter I wanted her to touch the dead woman. She caressed her shoulder. The mom saw it and smiled. I didn’t want my child to be the stranger to death that I had been. Touching a dead person makes it all real.
There’s an old tale about these matters, one that the Fijians understood without ever knowing the story. A man goes to a sage and asks him to write down a good luck charm. The sage gets out his inkstone and brush, grinds some ink, and on a crisp new sheet of rice paper he writes something down, folds it up and gives it to the man. The man opens it and reads it. In exquisite calligraphic script it says:
Grandfather dies.
Father dies.
Son dies.
The man can’t believe it. “What have you done! Did my enemies pay you? This is a curse on my entire family, it’s not a good luck charm!”
“Ah, no, that’s the best good luck charm I can give you,” the sage calmly replied. “If it happens in any other order, that is very bad luck …”
The first person I saw actually die was my sister Kristen. Well, half-sister, but us kids all decided among us early on that half- and step- were out, we were all brothers and sisters. She was about 50 at the time. She’d gone to the hospital to get some tests for intestinal discomfort, walked in the door, and passed out in the reception area. So they checked her, and after testing they decided that they had to do an immediate exploratory operation to see what was wrong. Her mother, who was our beloved stepmother Virginia, and a bunch of us brothers and sisters and I all went immediately to the hospital, to be there when she woke up from the operation.
When the operation was over around noon, the surgeon called us all in. She started talking, and she only got partway through the explanation of the operation before she started crying. She said that a 6-foot section of my sister’s intestines had died, and that was too much of a loss for her to live. She said medicine was powerless. She said when they saw what it was and how bad it was, they immediately closed up and got out to prevent further harm. They did not know why part of her had died, but there was no human power that could save her. She had maybe 24 hours. That was it.
We were stunned. What now, we said. The doctor said my sister was out of the OR and that she would be waking up soon. She’d likely stay awake for maybe an hour or two, perhaps a few more. But then the pain would start, and so she would be on a morphine drip. After that, she’d be awake some but she would mostly sleep. I felt so bad for the doctor. She had all of her knowledge and all of her skills and tools, and here she was, totally powerless. I could see she was shaken, frustrated and sad.
So we were all there when Kristen woke up. Of course, she was glad and surprised to see us. She remembered passing out in the lobby. But she was still kind of groggy. So as she became more alert we mostly made small talk. We told he she’d had an operation. We hadn’t though ahead about who would tell her the bad news, we didn’t have a plan or anything, the usual family deal. Finally she asked what the doctor had said about the outcome of the operation, what they had found … silence.
After a long pause, one of my brothers stepped in. But he kind of danced around the subject. He is a lovely man and he did his best, but he described it in all kinds of generalities, words like “preparing for the end” and “short time” and “so sorry”, and “inevitable”, but nothing concrete. I could see he wasn’t getting through, my sister wasn’t following him.
Finally I couldn’t stand her confusion. I said something like “Kristen, the doctors operated, but they can’t help you. They said that part of your intestines died, and there is nothing that they can do. They say that you will die within a day.”
Silence.
“Can’t be”, she said after a bit of thought. “I feel fine.” She wouldn’t believe me. I repeated that she was certain to die within twenty-four hours, by far the saddest and most final news I’ve ever had to deliver in my life. She looked in my eyes. She didn’t like what she saw. She turned to Virginia. “Mom,” she said, “that’s not true, is it?”
Her mother had to do then what must assuredly be one of the most difficult things that a human being can do. She had to tell her darling, her joy, her only daughter that she had only a day to live. Ah, my friends, I can only fervently wish that no one would ever, ever in their life have to say what she said to her daughter then—Oh, sweetheart, I’m so sorry. The doctors say you only have a day to live. It’s true.
I couldn’t bear watching Virginia say it, how could she bear the saying of it herself?
Silence …
It can’t be true, my sister finally replied.
Yes, it is true, my stepmother said.
It is not true!, said Kristen.
Yes, it is true!
IS NOT!
IS TOO!
They voices had gradually raised until they were almost shouting, and all of us realized at about the same instant that it was such a prototypical grade-school playground level argument, and we all laughed at the absurdity. When death is present in the room, our feelings simply overflow, and tragedy and comedy get all confused and mixed up.
We talked for a while after that. Fortunately none of us had much that was left unsaid with Kristen, we were always pretty honest with each other. She’d been a good kid and was a good woman, and we told her so. So we talked, and even laughed some more. But all too soon, the pain from the operation started hitting her. Pretty soon, I couldn’t take it any more, my heart wouldn’t bear it. In the afternoon, I left her with her mom and the others and went home.
But then in the early evening, my brother called. He said everyone had gone home but him. He said Virginia couldn’t stop weeping, she was beside herself, and another sister had taken her home. He said he had to leave, he needed to do some things and then go to work the next day.
Well, there was no way she was going to die alone. That was not on the list of options. So once again I drove the solitary miles and miles back to the hospital. When I got there she was sleeping. She woke once, but didn’t say anything. She saw me, and it seemed to comfort her, or perhaps that was just my wishful thinking. Death was in the room. I stayed well to the side. Time slowed. I held her hand, and moistened her lips with ice water with the little pink lollipop sponges they use for that, and told her that she’d been a good sister to me and a good friend, and she had been, too. Around two in the morning, her breathing slowed, and then she slipped away.
I found out then that there is an odd kind of peace in being alone in a room with someone who has just died. After all the anguish and the turbulent emotions, the succeeding absolutely inalterable finality of her death obviated the need for any further struggle on anyone’s part. There was nothing more she could do. There was nothing more I could do for her. She was beyond my reach. Death had left the room, and with it, the need for wariness. I sat in the room with her for a while, and wept, and turned off my mind. The silence was so deep it was almost subsonic. If that silence of death had a color, it would be the darkest ebon, the deepest Elvis velvet black. I wrapped the silence around me and listened to my own breath, the only sound in the room.
Then after a while, I pressed the call button, and the doctor came and pronounced her dead.
===========
The main thing that I have learned in all of my curious interactions with the dead and the dying has been to take Death as my advisor. I have learned that Death gives me better advice than anyone. When it comes to sage wisdom, I found that Death beats all the books and advice columnists and psychologists and grief counselors and what all the authorities say. Whenever I’m all in a fluster about how bad things are at the moment, how everything’s going pear-shaped and I just can’t take it, at that time (if I have my wits about me) I’ll I look over my left shoulder and ask Death what he thinks about it all.
By this point, I know what he’ll say. He’ll say no, Willis, don’t worry about this penny ante booshwa. That’s nothing, he tells me … I haven’t touched you yet …
All of us, myself assuredly included, tend to live as though we are immortal. We talk of wasting time as if we had it to waste, when it is our most precious possession and we have so little of it. Taking Death as my advisor cuts through that fatal illusion. He reminds me that my days are numbered, that I need to live every day to the fullest. He tells me to work and play and laugh and produce and treat each hour as though it were my last. He reminds me that I am at war, and I need to acknowledge that this might be my ultimate battle. And as such, it is imperative that I forth to that battle in a warrior’s spirit of true abandon, holding nothing back.
Which brings me back to where I started this roundabout tale, back to William Alfred Schneider, my dear friend Billy, fellow musician, and father-in-law. I finally got to know him after they moved out here. The man was a jazz legend. He got his first gig playing drums in a St. Louis strip joint when he was a teenager in the 1940’s, and never looked back. He was the drummer for Barbara Streisand at the Crystal Palace in St. Louis in the fifties, and was a fixture in the famed “Gaslight Square”. He played with Liberace. He said when “Lee”, as he called Liberace, went on a minimum no-frills tour, he took only two people—Billy, and Liberace’s hairdresser … with Billy smiling his silly grin and slightly emphasizing the word “hairdresser”. Unusually for a man born in the 1920’s, he didn’t care in the slightest what someone did in bed, as long as they could play good music and put on an entertaining show. But he was always ahead of his time.
Billy played with Frank Sinatra, and with Dave Brubeck. He toured with Roger Williams. In the 1950’s Billy was the drummer for “The Nervous Set”, starring the recently-deceased Larry Hagman as the lead singer. It was the first Broadway musical with a jazz quartet instead of an orchestra, Kenny Burrell was the guitarist. Among other innovations of the musical, Billy played the tympani along with his normal jazz drum kit, to fill out the sound. You can hear Billy’s understated musical style on the drums here. The song is a masterpiece of late 1950’s angst, with lyrics that were hilarious in their own way then and now. The musical both celebrated and mocked the dawn of the “Beat Generation”. Jack Kerouac came to a performance. He was drunk, and tried to force his way backstage, they wouldn’t let him in. Billy’s stories went on and on …
He went legally blind a couple of decades ago, macular degeneration. But he was doing OK, still playing music, until his wife had a stroke. She was half-paralyzed and bedridden after that, which was hard on him, and he stopped playing. About four years ago, my gorgeous ex-fiancee talked them into moving to California from St. Louis so we could take care of them. She found a nursing home for her mom, and we found him a mobile home to buy in a nearby mobile home park … he laughed about that. He said it proved he wasn’t trailer trash, he lived in a mobile home. He visited his wife in the nursing home almost every single day until her death a couple of years ago. She was the envy of the place to have a husband like that, all the poor souls in the nursing home who got one or two visits a year were jealous of her. I think he was atoning for previous misdeeds, the man was a jazz musician, and by all accounts a tom cat … but atone he assuredly did, and impeccably. When she needed him, really needed him, he was by her side every day. The only way we could keep him from going was to tell him we’d go ourselves, and we did, week after week, to give him some days off. He paid off all of his debts to his wife with true devotion.
Right up to the end his mind never weakened, and curiously, he was one of the few people with whom I could discuss my climate research. You have to understand that I’m a long ways out of the loop compared to many climate researchers. They typically have some circle of peers around them with whom they can discuss their ideas about the climate—other researchers, professors, graduate students, mentors, people from other departments and fields, they work and publish in teams and groups and can bounce ideas off each other.
I do all of my research alone. Around here, I have Billy and one other guy to talk to, neither one a climate scientist but both interested intelligent layman, and that’s it. So it was always a pleasure to read my work to him. He had me read each piece out loud, and then asked good questions. And we always had the music.
But his kidneys finally betrayed him. His last public appearance was in January, a couple of half-hour sets. He was as good as ever. Almost blind and nearly deaf even with his hearing aids, he never missed a beat. Then he was hospitalized, and they had to re-inflate him with a carload of IV fluids and such. His other daughter came out from Tennessee, she was a huge help during and after his hospitalization. But then, of course, she had to go back to work. She left with our profound thanks.
When Billy came out of the hospital, he told me he wasn’t going to play any more music. I said, you mean not play any more music in public? No, he said, he was done with music … my heart sank. He’d said the same thing when his wife had her stroke, and he didn’t play any music at all for a couple of years back then. But when he moved to California and still wasn’t playing, I knew that if I could get him to play again, he’d live much longer. So I just kept bugging him to play … and finally he gave in. We started to play a bit. I put my keyboard, amplifier, bass, microphone and guitar at his place so he could rock out anytime I or one of his friends was there. But he was kind of half-hearted about it, like he hadn’t made up his mind to get back into it.
And then he met some local musicians, and one of them told him that an old drum student of Billy’s from 50 years ago named George Marsh was now a music professor at the local university. Well, that put the cat among the pigeons. Just the rumor of George Marsh did what I couldn’t do. Billy immediately started seriously practicing, hours every day—Billy Schneider wasn’t going to have his student show up and find his old teacher unable to play the drums, oh, no, that wasn’t on. And so by the time George Marsh (who is now in his seventies and still teaching) made it over to his house, Billy was seriously playing his drums again and had his old chops back. And for the next four years, he played a lot, both with me and with various combinations of other musician friends in his house, as well as playing various gigs again in public as he’d done for so long. He played with a floating jazz group at a local restaurant, you’ve never seen a man so happy as when the band clicked.
Here’s a funny story. Billy met a friend of mine who’s up to his ears in Haitian drumming. So Billy started trading lessons with him, showing him jazz drumming in exchange for being taught something about Haitian drumming. Here’s the crazy part. My friend was taught Haitian drumming by a man named Kendrick. Kendrick was a very good drummer with sticks as well, in part because at the start of his drumming career he’d once spent six months on the waiting list to become for several years a student of George Marsh … who was, of course, taught drums by Billy himself, and so the circle was complete.
So when Billy announced he was hanging up his sticks, my heart grieved, I knew his time was short … not good news. Curiously, he told me that in some ways it was a great relief, because the music had always been a burden for him. I understood what he meant. I’m a musician, but not like him. I never practiced, even when I was making my living playing music. I just played and played and played, Oh, sometimes I’d play one song over and over for three hours, but I never called it practice. You’re doing the same thing, but from a very different point of view of music. I hate to practice, and I love to play, despite the fact that they’re the same. In my opinion, they call it “playing music” for a reason—because it’s not ever supposed to be work or practice. My aim is to play music like children play their games, for the simple joy of the sound and the passion of creating something stirring and moving and lovely.
But Billy was old-school. For him, there was practice, and there was performing. Billy had always driven himself to practice, a minimum of three hours a day until the day he quit. It was why he was so good. And now, he said, he was just tired to the bone. He didn’t want to practice like that any more … and if he couldn’t practice three hours a day, he wouldn’t play at all.
I told him that was OK by me. I told him he’d played music for people all his life, and all they’d had to do was sit back and listen. I said that now I could return the favor. I’d play, and all he had to do was listen. He laughed, he liked that plan. We joked about him being my captive audience. And so when I visited, I played for him the tunes that he and I had played together, over the following weeks, as he lay back in his easy chair. We talked about everything, including his impending death.
His health got worse and worse. The doctors said that he was a candidate for dialysis. But like my father, he refused treatment. His music was done, he said, and he’d had enough of being old and blind and deaf and most of all, he was just so tired. The only medical treatment he said he wanted was a morphine drip if things got bad.
For a while he could still take care of himself. We begged him to come live with us, but he was fiercely independent. His proud warrior’s spirit refused to let him to leave his mobile home even after he began to fail. So about two weeks ago, the gorgeous ex-fiancee and I moved in with him in shifts, with her there one night and me there the next. He was mostly sleeping. His voice grew less clear, with gaps in the words. I was reminded of times in the past when some friend and I were talking on our fishing boat radios, and my friend was in a boat going over the horizon. As the boat moved farther away, my friend’s words became indistinct, with static and gaps like Billy’s words, and both of us saying, Do you copy, do you read me, over? … I could see Billy was frustrated that his body wouldn’t obey him. It wasn’t that his mind couldn’t form the words. It was just that he was sailing over the horizon, and slowly getting too far away to send back final communications to those left behind on the shore …
When the pain got bad, his loving, ever-patient nurse, my dear wife, got him a prescription for morphine … and we dripped it into his mouth, just a bit from time to time, like he’d wanted. I think the fear of the pain was worse than the pain itself, and the morphine eased both his body and his mind.
On Friday night, he was nearing the end. I went down to his place, and my dear lady went home to feed the cat and get some sleep. It was proper. She had been at my father’s bedside when he died, and on that night long ago I had gone home. So it was right she should go home now. After she left, I put on some of Billy’s recordings from back in the day, the soundtrack from “The Nervous Set”, recordings he’d done with other musicians. I held his hand, and stroked his head. I sang to him. I told him he’d been a good husband and father, although neither were strictly true. But like my own mom and dad, he’d done his best with the poor interpersonal tools that were to hand in the 40’s and 50’s, and that’s all I could ask.
When I could feel his death approaching, I made myself small and turned sideways. I’m very careful when Death is in the room. First off, if you look at that joker’s eye-sockets, you can tell right away that his vision isn’t of the finest. Plus, his record isn’t that sterling either. It’s because he grew up outdoors, that’s my theory at least, where there’s plenty of room to swing a scythe. As a result, too often he’s been known to misunderestimate the distances involved inside a house, so his scythe bumps the refrigerator on the backswing or something, and as a result the blade hits the wrong man, and boom—Dick Nixon lives for another 117 years, and some good guy ends up dying young.
And although these days I’m mostly out of danger in that regard, being neither that young nor that good, I did not want to get mistaken for Billy right about then.
But Death found the right man, in my opinion at least, and probably in Billy’s opinion as well, and he died around nine o’clock. His breath went out, and it never came back. I leaned over and kissed his cooling forehead. His other daughter later said that for years, he’d had an evening gig, and the second set always started at 9:20 … that made sense. Much as he would have liked to stay and talk to me, he had to leave, the boys were headed back to the bandstand, Barbara Striesand was already on stage, the next set was about to start …
So I turned off his old recordings, and once again, I found myself sitting alone in a silent room with someone I’d just watched die. Again I wept. And again I took solace in the profundity of the silence, and in the soothing fact that there was nothing pressing any more, no urgency, nothing he needed to do, nothing I could do for him.
Then, when the time of silence was over, I went to do the necessary tasks. But of course, as I have learned in my life, death often brings both tragedy and farce, and this was no exception. Earlier in the day I’d called the mortuary, to see what the procedure was for them to pick up his body. The Mortuary Lady said they couldn’t pick him up without a Death Certificate. OK, I said, how do I get one of those? Oh, she said, you can’t do it, his doctor has to sign it.
Mmmm … but what if his doctor is out of town? Because, you know, he is out of town. Until Monday. And Billy will likely die before then.
Well, she said, after he dies you should call the County Coroner. They will send a doctor over to sign the certificate. They always handle that. It’s not a problem
So I did … but being a skeptical fellow, I did it right then, I didn’t wait until afterwords. I told the nice Coroner Lady the situation. She said oh, no, we don’t handle dead people at home in bed. You should call the Sheriff’s Department. They always handle that. It’s not a problem.
So I did, right then. But the nice Sheriff Lady said they didn’t deal with dead people at home in bed. She said just call the emergency number 9-1-1. They always handle that. It’s not a problem … I guess not many people die at home with their family any more. Eventually my doctor said, just call the local police. They’ll know what to do. So after I’d sat in the silence in his bedroom for a while, I did that very thing.
However, the nice Police Lady said that unfortunately, his passing had to be classified as an “Unattended Death”, all capitalized and everything, because there was no doctor present. Again I was reminded of the difference between the first and the third world. What we call “an Unattended Death” they call “a death”—the presence of a doctor is a rarity, and absolutely not a necessity. In any case, the nice Police Lady said that she was sorry, but since his doctor was out of town, they’d have to send a detective out to investigate the Unattended Death for signs of foul play … plus of course the Emergency Medical Technician had to come out to to make sure he wasn’t still alive.
The mind works strangely at such times. I was tempted to say that it was clear that he wasn’t pining for the fjords, and that I took “didn’t breathe for the last fifteen minutes” as kind of a clue to his general state of animation, but I forbore … I could see that I was now just a pawn in the bureaucratic machinery. I had entered the zone where it didn’t matter what I said or did.
The detective turned out to be a pleasant young man. Clearly, however, he was hoping that this would turn out to be the crime of the century, that I’d just snuffed Howard Hughes or something. He came in, and first thing, we had to fill out some paperwork. I figured he’d want to see the body first, but no, it’s the government. Paperwork first, last, and in between, it’s the way we render modern death sterile and unthreatening.
While we were doing that, the EMT wagon arrived. I’d asked the nice Police Lady if they could leave the lights and sirens off to avoid disturbing the neighbors, and they did so. The EMT came in and went in the bedroom to see the body. He came out and told us that Billy was really most sincerely dead. He had a whole other set of paperwork, which I signed, and he gave his condolences and left. But of course he couldn’t sign the Death Certificate, so I’m not sure what his purpose was.
After the paperwork was done, the Detective said he wanted to see the “scene”. He did manage not to call it a “crime scene”. We went into the bedroom. He took out his camera and said he was sorry, but by law he had to take pictures for the record. I said I understood. He asked me to take the covers off of Billy’s body. I could see that he was disappointed to find out that it was just an ancient dead man weighing about 80 pounds, call it 35 kg, with pipe stem legs and sunken eyes, and not a crime victim of any kind. So the Detective took his pictures. And knowing that it made absolutely no sense, I put the covers back on Billy and tucked them in around him because it was night time, and I didn’t want him to be cold. We are truly bizarre creatures, we humans …
Then the Detective asked if I had a measuring tape. He said he had to measure the distance of the body from the walls of the room for his sketch of the scene, but he didn’t have a tape … I got the tape measure. Somewhere in there, it seems the gears in my mind had stripped entirely, and I found myself wandering around the bedroom, numbly measuring how far it was from the walls to Billy’s body while the detective wrote down the numbers … life is endlessly strange. Somewhere in the bowels of the local Police Department there is an official “Unaccompanied Death” form with a sketch on it showing that William A. Schneider aged 86 died approximately nine feet from the south bedroom wall of his mobile home, and about seven feet from the east bedroom wall …
When all that was done, all the measurements and pictures taken, all the papers signed, I asked the Detective if now the mortuary folks could pick him up.
The Detective said no, first I had to get the Death Certificate …
I wanted to pound my head against the wall, but I was afraid I wouldn’t feel a thing if I did. It was that kind of evening. So I told the Detective the whole story, about the Mortuary Lady, and the County Coroner Lady, and the Sheriff Lady, and the Police Lady, and my Doctor’s advice, and he took pity on me. He called his boss, and she called someone she knew at the Coroners Office. In about five minues she called him back and said OK, Billy could be moved, the doctor could sign off when he returned on Monday.
So the Detective told me the body could go, and he gave his condolences. He was sincere and kind and professional throughout, and I thanked him for that and said I knew he had to do what he had done, and I was glad it was him that had done it. When he left I went back inside and called the mortuary.
Soon, the folks from the mortuary arrived. They brought a gurney. The mobile home was tight quarters. They had to stand the gurney on end to get it around the corners to his bedroom. I couldn’t figure out how they would get him out, there was nowhere near enough room. They wrapped him in a white shroud and put him on the gurney. Then they started lashing him on, with three webbed belts. I left the bedroom and sat down in the living room to wait.
When they came out of the bedroom, I found out that the gurney folded down, and it had wheels on one end, so they could use it like a hand truck. They came breezing out of the bedroom, wheeling him on what looked just like a hand truck, wrapped in white in a standing position. Their sudden appearance was so bizarre, they were moving fairly fast, or perhaps I was moving fairly slow, but in any case they looked for all the world like museum curators on the Discovery Channel merrily rolling one of the mummies to a new display location …
I must confess, I broke out laughing at sudden appearance of Billy disguised as a mummy on wheels in some museum. The attendants looked at me strangely, but I suppose they’d seen all kinds of grief, so they just keep wheeling the mummy on out to the van. Yeah, I know, I’m likely going to hell for laughing right then, but I knew that Billy would have seen the humor in it. He was a rascal and a gentleman and a rogue, crabby and thoughtlessly hard on the women in his family who loved him nonetheless, a wonderful musician and a bad family man who somehow managed to successfully raise a couple great girls to productive adulthood, and always someone with a deep sense of humor and a profound enjoyment of the ridiculous, inane, bizarre things of this world. He’d have laughed at the mummy image. My old shipmate, the one I was fishing with when I heard of my father’s passing thirty years ago, remarked on Billy’s death, “We don’t grieve for him. We grieve for our own loss, that he’s no longer around to laugh with us.”
Anyhow, that’s why my mind has been revisiting the topic of death lately. I have no great insights gained from all of this, except to keep listening to Death’s excellent advice, and to keep the gas pedal firmly pressed to the floor. Oh, and what George Marsh told me. He said he’d been meaning to get over to see Billy again, he’d been invited, but this and that had gotten in the way, time went by, and now Billy was dead … he said he wasn’t ever going to let that happen again if he could help it.
After Billy’s death, I went for some long walks on the cliffs overlooking the ocean with my gorgeous ex-fiancee, and we let the immensity of the water and the insistent wind and the endless waves wash away the sorrow and the struggle of the last few months. We both fished commercially together, we both are children of the waves. We saw a whale spouting far out in the vasty deeps—there is no better balm for the heart than untamed wildness.
I give my good lady immense props for her role in all of this. She has been the captain of our good ship since the first day, I was just the crew. And having skippered my share of boats, I assure you that crewman is by far the easier job. Crewmen sleep well at night, while the skipper tosses and turns and considers tomorrow. Billy was not always nice or kind to her or her sister, but they both bore up under it without complaint to him, and simply kept supporting him and her mother in every way they wanted and needed, from before the time they moved out here until their deaths. I told that good woman that she was the perfect daughter, that she did everything they needed and more, and that she had done it with style and with a warm and open heart. She has my profound admiration and undying thanks for her unwavering support of both of our parents in their extremity.
My conclusion from all of this? Hold your family and friends close, remember to taste the strawberries, play your own music whatever that might mean to you, and do what you love … because the night is never far away.
Best regards, and thanks for coming on the journey. Everyone grieves differently. This time around, writing seems to be part of how I do it. Tonight, the midnight moon is nearly full, with a single band of altostratus on one side of the sky and a hint of summer in the air. The coyotes are mumbling to each other on the far ridge, the saw-whet owl is sharpening his lethal blade. The intoxicating smell of the lemon tree in the yard lies thick on the dark air. The moonlit forest around my house is alive with unseen eyes, predator and prey alike, hidden death on all sides for rabbits and mice … stay well, dear friends, life is far too short.
w.
William A. “Billy” Schneider
Jazz drummer extraordinaire
1928-2014
He lived and died surrounded by his music
and loved by his family and friends.
Sleep well, my dear companion.
Bushbunny,
Interesting question of fact. Let me disclaim this by saying I learned this in a college course as a callow youth who’d yet to realize that one’s professors don’t always necessarily give you ‘the Truth the Whole Truth and Nothing But’. Having so disclaimed, I was taught that at least some of the people who came over were worried about the religious practices over in England, that they were not pure enough, and they wanted to get an ocean between themselves and the impending imminent ‘Wrath of God’ which they expected to be visited apon the wicked in England.
Anybody know anything about this?
Well I can understand this, history is sometimes one sided, like some religious faiths. I honestly feel very sorry for people who have irrational fears and believe what they hear from a pastor as the gospel truth, no pun intended.
One threat I heard a SDAC follower tell me, that in America they were banning their church from having their Sabbath on a Saturday. For heavens sakes girl, so do the Jews.That is crap.
Willis Eschenbach says: April 22, 2014 at 4:50 pm
johanna says: April 22, 2014 at 4:13 pm
[Willis had written:]
[To which johanna had responded:]
Following which, Willis <even when he’s wrong, he’s always right> Eschenbach, predictably avoided the obvious implication of his very own words, i.e. as Nancy G. had noted earlier:
Instead, he chose to (perhaps conveniently?!) forget that earlier today he had also written:
I’m not quite sure what single word or phrase WUWTs Wonderful Wordsmith Willis™ would have chosen to summarize the above. But you must have chosen the wrong one, johanna! Tsk. Tsk. Tsk. And in so doing, you broke his cardinal rule, thereby invoking the wrath of Willis who immediately glommed onto your unfortunate choice of the word “coward”:
You see, johanna, the rules of the game are: Thou shalt always quote Willis’ “exact” words. So that (if he cannot immediately conjure up some lame excuse or other) he can simply snip and run away from them. Just as he did earlier in this thread when I had the temerity to remind him of his warm-up exercises: His barrage of baseless claims that Janice was “hijacking [his] thread”, “plagiarizing and worse” and “twisting [his] words”.
If I’ve learned nothing else through my conversations (for want of a better word) with Willis in the last year or so, it’s that it is utterly pointless to expect Willis to substantiate his claims (or quote another’s “exact” words).
You see, his interpretation (which, as we all know, is the only one that counts on one of his threads) will trump anyone’s exact words in context, every single time. So, in light of Willis’ iron rule that others must obey, some might conclude that he has a double-standard. But I couldn’t possibly comment.
This was a mere warm-up exercise prior to launching into his full-blown fantasy and ludicrous repeated (by now ad nauseam) assertions that she was “seeking converts”, “giving a sermon” and “proselytizing”. Not to mention the corollary that anyone who did not see her actual words “through [his] eyes” must (by his definition which, again, is the only one that counts) also be a Christian evangelist. And if this should turn out not to be the case, well, of course it’s not his fault that he might have so wrongly concluded.
All of which, of course, pales in comparison to his allegedly ‘unmet challenge’ via his diversionary reframing: His coup de grâce, an “analogy” (also repeated ad nauseam throughout this thread) to which one is, evidently, supposed to respond and/or agree with.
Some might ignore this “challenge” because – apart from requiring a “prior” blind acceptance of his baseless claims and unproven assertions – the analogy is so inept, inapt, insulting to one’s intelligence and (as with so many iterations of his obnoxious self-exculpatory and/or diversionary tirades) ultimately, immaterial. But, again, I couldn’t possibly comment.
John R T says:
April 22, 2014 at 11:05 am
Thanks, John. Excuse the confusion, it’s my writing.
If you want to sell someone a religion, first they need to want to leave their current religion. It does no good for you to extol the praises of your product if they think that what they already have is better.
So you tell me, John … how would you solve that sales problem?
Because every salesman I know would see that before the person will choose my product, first they have to be dissatisfied with the product they have. Why do you think that Honda spends its time saying that Ford is no good, for example?
Regards,
w.
Thank you, Willis; I try to live my faith. ‘They will know we are Christians by our love.’ I have not tried to ‘sell’ my denomination, nor my religious affiliation. On several occasions, co-workers, family members, a traveller sitting beside me, have asked, ‘Why/how are you so content/happy?’ I tell them of my faith. I can claim no convert. I have had a little success in ‘selling’ a process, an approach, by demonstrating a benefit greater than that enjoyed under an existing regime. Most of us become accustomed to, and accepting of, our current situation. Pointing out errors is wrong-footed. Your vigorous, maybe vehement, attachment to your world view and philosophy is noteworthy. I see little skepticism, there. Nor does there appear to be ease and contentment. Thank heaven for dedicated explorers and analysts.
best wishes, John
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 10:55 PM, Watts Up With That? wrote:
> Willis Eschenbach commented: “John R T says: April 22, 2014 at 11:05 > am PS: {Somewhere up-thread, at least twice, you claimed that salespersons > had to show the prospective buyer his wrong-ness; where did you learn this? > I never made a sale by talking down the person with the money” >
Hilary Ostrov (aka hro001) says: “But, again, I couldn’t possibly comment.”
LOL. Possibly the funniest line in the entire thread. Kudos!
Hilary Ostrov (aka hro001) says:
April 22, 2014 at 9:44 pm
Hilary, you are suffering from a senior moment. You claim that I “chose to (perhaps conveniently?!) forget that earlier today he had also written” the part you quote.
In fact, I QUOTED THAT EXACT SECTION IN MY RESPONSE TO JOHANNA.
So either you are not paying attention in the slightest, or your desire to prove me wrong has overcome your reading ability, or you are just making things up, or you are simply forgetting what you have read. I picked the kindest explanation, that you simply are not remembering, but anything’s possible.
Note what’s happened here, Hilary. In your overweening desire to prove I’m a bad guy, you not only accused me of not paying attention. You accused me of doing it “perhaps conveniently”, of forgetting something on purpose.
In fact, YOU did the forgetting, and then made nasty, underhanded accusations about me and how I’m a baaad man … and you claim the moral high ground?? Your greed for my destruction has led to your undoing. You accused me of the very thing that you did, and of which I was totally innocent. Fail.
There’s a lesson in there if you care to learn it.
Next, I over-reacted to Janice’s words, and I apologized to her for doing that.
But as I said clearly at the time, I was apologizing for using a sledgehammer, for the over-the-top qualities of my response. And as I also said clearly, I was NOT apologizing for calling her on her bullshit. Her intrusive, aggressive, attacking proselytizing was way out of line, and I would tell her that again. I’d just do it in more measured tones. So I apologized for the part where I was out of line, but I will not apologize for telling her that her actions were intrusive and uncaring. Not gonna happen.
Now, I see that you and Nancy think I should apologize to Janice again, in some new and different ways. Don’t you harpies ever give up? Read my lips. I don’t care in the slightest what you and Nancy and johanna think about my apology to someone. That’s between me and Janice, it’s none of your business.
As I said, do you always need a spokeswoman to demand apologies on behalf of some other woman? Now you’re complaining about my treatment of Nancy and johanna … can’t one of you speak for yourself?
Do you not see that you are perpetuating the “weak woman” stereotype by implicitly claiming that you need to protect and defend Janice and Nancy? That assumes that they are unable to protect themselves … which I don’t believe at all, but you seem to.
I care very much if Janice is satisfied with my apology, Hilary, and I have invited her to let me know if she is not satisfied. She is free to do so or not, either is fine by me.
On the other hand, I don’t care in the slightest if you, Nancy, johanna, and three hundred of your friends are dissatisfied with what I said to Janice. You have not even shown that Janice expects more than what I have offered. You’re just making it up, and then assuming that she’s too weak to tell me, so you’re glad to tell me. Of course, you can’t tell me what Janice thinks, ’cause you have no clue what that is. So you just gin up your ugly fantasies instead and are using them to attack me.
So I will tell you what I told Nancy, which is the same thing I told johanna. I thought you might get the clue from my telling them individually , but apparently not, so here it is again.
Janice can speak for herself, and I care what she might say if she chooses to speak. You can’t speak for her, and your unpleasant fantasies about what she wants are of no interest to me at all. If Janice wants a different apology, I am more than happy to have that discussion with her … but I’m going to have that discussion with the organ grinder, not the monkey.
w.
Hilary Ostrov (aka hro001) says:
April 22, 2014 at 9:44 pm
Quoting the words you disagree with is simple courtesy. It allows me and others to understand what you disagree with.
johanna accused me of calling Janice a “coward”, but provided nothing at all in the way of any quotation of mine to support that.
So how am I supposed to respond to that, Hilary? It is an accusation with nothing to grab on to, nothing to respond to, since I never said or implied anything of the sort.
Snip and run away? Again, without a quotation, nobody, me included, has a clue what you are referring to.
In the case you refer to, I didn’t do anything resembling “snip and run away”. Because she hadn’t been courteous enough to indicate what had her knickers in such a twist, I picked what I actually had said that I thought she might referring to and discussed that, viz:
I did not “snip and run away”, I discussed what I thought she was referring to. I neither said nor implied Janice was a coward. Johanna never responded, so I still have no clue what she was talking about. Now, you’ve picked up the cudgel, and are full of scorn, but just like johanna, you haven’t shown that I’ve ever implied in any fashion that Janice is a coward.
Here’s what I actually said, not your pathetic partial quotes:
I stand by that, and I subsequently explained in detail exactly what I meant by that. You may not like my claims, but they are not “baseless”, I have explained them in detail. You just don’t like the base.
Hilary, I go to great lengths to quote people’s exact words and provide extensive support for my claims. If you think I have not done so, OK, I’m happy to discuss it, but it is cowardly and underhanded to make that ugly allegation without providing even one example to substantiate it.
I note that once again, you are doing exactly what you accuse me of, of not substantiating your claims. You have made an ugly claim without a scrap of support for it. Funny, that.
w.
PS—I’ll give you my theory about why the three of you are so upset with me, knowing that you will not care for it. I think it’s because I hold women to the exactly the same standards as men.
You think I should be all sweetness and light when I talk to Janice, but not one of you has said much of anything about how I treat men. I treated Janice just like I would have treated a man that did the same thing. As I said, I’m an equal opportunity offender.
Hilary, you’re not saying “hey, I’ll go easy on Willis because he’s a guy”. And rightly so, I wouldn’t want you to do so.
But that’s exactly what you want me to do with Janice, go easy on her because she’s a woman. You’re all afraid I’ve hurt her tender feelings, and so you all get together and decide that she wants more apologies to soothe her ruffled feathers, poor thing, but she’s too (something or other) to let me know.
So you appoint yourselves as her official spokesfemalepersons … y’all are going mad trying to protect her, despite the fact that she’s never asked for it, and that means you think she is weak and people should protect her. You think she needs protection from me that she has never requested, protection that you have no idea if she actually wants or not, and have appointed yourselves as her noble protectors in chief.
Not to carry out her wishes, however—you have no idea what her wishes are. You have appointed yourselves to carry out your personal vendettas in her name, to carry out your own personal wishes, to try to impose your agenda on me.
I, on the other hand, think Janice is a woman who can protect herself, and is in no need of protection from me or anyone else. And unless and until she says otherwise, I hold to that.
And when I don’t offer her the special treatment you think she deserves, because in your world she is a “weak woman” who needs special care, my four apologies to Janice are not enough to satisfy you. I didn’t apologize in the approved fashion, I didn’t say exactly what you think I should say, it wasn’t good enough for you ladies, oh, no, not in the slightest. But then, nothing I can do could possibly satisfy you … but not because I’m not trying, as is clearly demonstrated by the four apologies I’ve made to Janice and the offer to discuss it with her if she wishes.
So I’ve apologized, but I couldn’t possibly ever apologize enough to satisfy you … because there’s only one person that controls your satisfaction, and it’s not me.
So then, because I don’t fall in line when the ladies crack the whip, then the three of you start your predictable rants about what an evil, uncaring jerk I am … I’m not. I’m doing what all of my women friends encouraged me to do in my youth, and what has subsequently been my unvarying practice. I’m doing my best to treat Janice the same as I would a man, and you are enraged about that because you think she’s a weak woman who needs special protection.
Seriously, you are all obsessed with proving that I’m the devil incarnate because I think that y’all “protecting” Janice is a pathetic joke. You’re so upset that I don’t give you and Janice the deference you think you deserve as women that you can’t even keep the story straight. You lose focus, you accuse me of the things that you are doing and I’ve never done, your claims grow more and more bizarre, and your emotional level just keeps going up, up, up.
Janice is a grown woman, Hilary. She is perfectly capable of taking care of herself. She is free to say whatever she might wish to me, or about me. If she wants to discuss my apology, I have offered to do so happily.
However, as far as I know she has not asked for your assistance, nor has she indicated that my apologies are in any way unsatisfactory. I don’t recall her appointing any of you to speak for her, nor indicated that she needs protection from me or anyone else.
So why are you all in such a lather to protect her from some imaginary dangers when she hasn’t asked for your protection? Serious question, Hilary. Why is protecting someone who has not indicated that she wants protection such a crusade for you? I suspect you are an insightful woman … how about you apply your insight to that question about yourself, and leave me alone for a change? I’m not the man you fantasize that I am, your anger and bitterness is clouding your mind so much that you are accusing me of what you are doing yourself.
Hilary Ostrov (aka hro001) says:
April 22, 2014 at 9:44 pm
That’s the longest way I’ve heard in a while to explain why you are unwilling to answer a simple question, Hilary. You’re running from it like all the rest, and as I mentioned above, when you are running away from a question, nobody cares about your excuses why you don’t want to answer.
All I did was to transfer Janice saying things about Death, and rephrased them about Jesus, to see how people responded to it. Janice came and told me that Death was a liar, that he could not bring me hope or peace, and that my beliefs were all screwed up.
All I asked was if saying the same thing about Jesus at a Christian eulogy would be all wonderful and compassionate as you and many others have claimed.
So I don’t understand what you are calling “baseless claims and unproven assertions”. Janice assuredly told me those things about Death and my beliefs, nothing baseless or unproven there, read her comment. And turnabout is assuredly fair play, so I merely asked if saying to a grieving Christian giving a eulogy for a family member that Jesus is a liar who could never bring them peace or hope would be a compassionate act, as y’all are claiming.
So how about a simple answer to a simple question? There is nothing in there that requires what you call “‘prior’ blind acceptance”, Hilary. It’s a simple flipping of the situation, with exactly the same attacks that Janice launched against me, but in a Christian context. It contains no “baseless claims” and no “unproven assertions”.
It’s a bog-simple question, Hilary—if the exact same attack were launched against a Christian that Janice launched against me, by calling Jesus a liar who could never bring you peace or hope, would that be a compassionate act when that Christian was giving a eulogy for a dead family member? Or would it be a crass and unfeeling intrusion?
So you loudly declaiming that this is some complex allegory full of baseless accusations as you scurry over the horizon in a cloud of dust just means that you, like everyone else to date, is unwilling to answer a simple question because you do not like the answer.
w.
John R T says:
April 22, 2014 at 11:02 pm
Thanks, John. As I said before, I have huge respect for Jesus’s message, and the same respect for those like yourself who live it without trying to push it on their neighbors. I have no problem with Christianity, “love your neighbors” is great advice … but individual Christians whose idea of love is to tell me I’m listening to a liar and will never find peace or hope are … well, unfortunately they are far too common. So common, in fact, that usually I just ignore them … but not when they try to use the occasion of my grief to tell me my beliefs are screwed up and to sell me ten claims about Jesus that I’ve heard a thousand times before.
According to your story, you are doing exactly what I requested of Christians, that they ASK FIRST before they say one single word about Jesus, particularly when dealing with people who profess no religion. In fact, you go one further and wait for people to ask you. My profound thanks, both for doing that and for talking about it.
You’d think that asking first would be basic Christian courtesy, but sadly …
w.
To answer your last question, Willis, I think you are responding in an irrational pattern. We like Janice and you have held sway over this thread for too long. And I believe you are berating anyone that puts in an alternative argument that you does not 100% support your attitude and frame of mind. You are in my opinion very narrow minded, and possibly too humbugish.
Anthony how long are you letting this thread go on?
johanna says:
April 22, 2014 at 6:06 pm
Let me get this straight.
I admitted that you were 100% correct, and that I was wrong, and I apologized to you and corrected the error that you had pointed out … and that’s not enough for you? Really? You want to complain and moan about me saying you were right and apologizing to you? I can see why you don’t like my apology to Janice, nothing’s good enough for you …
Damn, you’re a hard woman. I say I was wrong and you are 100% right and offer my apologies, but nooo, that isn’t enough for johanna. You want me to lick your boots or something? Wear sackcloth and ashes?
No satisfying you, that’s clear. Ah, well, at least that means that there’s no reason to try any further to find out what I’ve done that you are upset about … won’t make any difference if I do find out what it is and fix it, you’ve just proven that you’ll still bust my begonias no matter what I do.
w.
PS—The accusation that I’m “making it up as I go along” is bizarre. Does that mean you are working from a prepared script? As far as I know, we’re all making up what we say right here on the spot, moment by moment … am I missing something? Did I not get the memo that I should have a script too?
No comment, No comment, No Comment!
Willis Eschenbach says:April 22, 2014 at 10:31 pm
OMG! How could I have possibly overlooked that?! Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpla!
But while it is totally unforgivable of me, I agree, there are actually two very valid reasons (at least from my perspective; although I have the rather distinct impression that my perspective is of very little interest to you). Anyway, for those who might be interested, here they are, not necessarily in any order of priority.
I had intended to append to that portion of my post the remarkable contrast I had observed earlier (in my comment to John Whitman) between those very words and your much earlier barrage.
But truth be told (and here comes the second reason) I was laughing so hard watching Eschenbach-in-Lewandowsky-mode-on-steroids with his, “That’s just your nasty man-hating nature coming out [and following]” that as I was scrolling through the rest of your tirade, I must have missed it!
Oh, well … c’est la vie.
P.S. Willis, since you have decreed that “coward”** is unacceptable, inaccurate or whatever your self-serving scathing scolding of the hour might be … What word or phrase would you have chosen to summarize the essence of the rather winding and long-winded text I had overlooked during my laughter-driven scroll-through?!
**Although used by johanna without quotes, thereby distinguishing it from your very own words for which she did use quotes – which you seem to have missed because during the course of your tirade you wrongly attributed your very own words to johanna.
willis, hillary…
plaese stop.
its like driving by a horrific automobile crash…its a morbid curiosity that makes me come back and read…please, both of you just drop it.
its unseemly, and unproductive and ugly.
just stop.
As I said, do you always need a spokeswoman to demand apologies on behalf of some other woman? Now you’re complaining about my treatment of Nancy and johanna … can’t one of you speak for yourself?
Do you not see that you are perpetuating the “weak woman” stereotype by implicitly claiming that you need to protect and defend Janice and Nancy? That assumes that they are unable to protect themselves … which I don’t believe at all, but you seem to.
——————————————
Here we go again. If we say nothing, it proves assent. If we say something, it proves that the people we speak for are “weak” so it can be ignored.
The Jesuits have nothing on this bloke.
I’m not very fussed about you misquoting me, as Hilary pointed out. As I said above, when it comes to attacking women, facts tend to go astray in your diatribes.
As for the ponytail, thank goodness you have grown up finally and got rid of it. But there was a youtube clip of you speaking at (I think) a Heartland conference some years ago where it was very much in evidence.
OK, I’ll recant. Your tactics are just like Michael Mann’s, minus the ponytail.
I should add that the attribution of sinister motives to those who disagree with you has a lot of pioneering work by a Professor Stephan Lewandowsky. Why is Hilary Ostrov, a Jew, behaving like an evangelical Christian? Dr Lew (and Willis) can fill you in. Why is johanna’s defence of other people an example of conspiracist ideation? Dr Lew and Willis have all the answers!
bushbunny says (April 23, 2014 at 12:13 am): “Anthony how long are you letting this thread go on?”
How long will you keep reading it?
bushbunny says:
April 22, 2014 at 7:53 pm
It’s not bigotry to describe Janice’s cult as blasphemous, because by the standards of the genuine Christianity she claims to profess, that is precisely what her beliefs are. The Intelligent Designer of creationists is necessarily cruel, deceptive & incompetent, ie a hideous monster unworthy of worship, not the supposed God of love.
Mark Bofill says:
April 22, 2014 at 8:03 pm
The Mayflower Pilgrims were indeed Puritans (Brownist Dissenters), who had in fact already fled persecution in England by moving to the Netherlands (Leiden, Holland). But they didn’t want their kids growing up Dutch, so they decided to build their own civilization in the New World, specifically “the northern part of Virginia”, now known as Plymouth, Massachusetts. They blew it by settling there instead of on the site of Boston.
I, like so many other Americans, am descended from them & from the earlier immigrants to Jamestown, Virginia, who came for gold rather than God, but ended up planting tobacco.
Milodonharlani,
Thanks. I didn’t really have any particular point I was making, just curious. I read Wikipedia’s account and gather that perhaps religious tolerance wasn’t precisely what one might call a Puritan virtue.
~shrug~ It doesn’t really matter with respect to the original point I think, just trivia.
500 comments !
davideisenstadt says:April 23, 2014 at 12:55 am
David,
The view from here, so to speak, is that this whole “crash” could easily have been averted – by he who now insists that one whom he initially insulted and – in no uncertain terms – made it quite clear that her further participation here was most unwelcome, should somehow have divined that he has “apologized” and that therefore she should return to “defend herself” against his accusations.
But that aside, as a pattern-picker-outer from way back when, I don’t recall exactly when these particular posting patterns (and such a preponderance of text which reflects classic exercises in projection) of Willis’ began to emerge. But they became very noticeable to me during the course of the McNutt “open letter” thread (circa August 2013). Some of which were repeated/recyled during the Spencer thread (circa October 2013). This particular thread, though, has (in large part) been an encore performance of the McNutt thread.
And speaking of performances … One of the things that has particularly struck me is the contrast between the ‘passionate and complex’ man Willis keeps telling us he is and the exceedingly flat and monotonal affect that is evident from his video presentations (or at least the ones I’ve seen!)
All of which is quite off-topic for this thread (and blog). So, perhaps one day, when I have nothing better to blog about, I’ll pull together the evidence (of which he has provided an abundance … but don’t take my word for it … take your mouse for a scroll through the blue bully pulpit posts on this and the other two threads I mentioned!)
Maybe I’ll call it Portrait of the Artist as a Recyle-Man. Or perhaps, How doth he browbeat thee, let us count the ways. 😉
Cheers,
Hilary
Mark Bofill says:
April 23, 2014 at 10:37 am
The Puritan record for toleration is no different from Anglican or Catholic history. In fact, better, since they didn’t burn heretics when briefly in control of England (under Cromwell), as did the other two denominations.
The last person burned at the stake for heresy in England was Edward Wightman, condemned by the Church of England under James I.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Wightman
It was this wave of persecution which the Pilgrims fled, first to Holland, then Massachusetts, where the Puritans, instead of burning religious liberty proponent Roger Williams, the founder of Rhode Island, merely expelled him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Williams_%28theologian%29
Hilary Ostrov (aka hro001) says:
April 23, 2014 at 3:17 pm
hillary:
You are so much more accomplished than I am, you write better than I can and your analysis is always spot on…
Im only writing that you made your point really well, and the “dispute” between you and willis is clear for us all to see…I dont see you two resolving it here in this venue.
be well.
david
Janice knew what she was doing and cheerfully did it.
Folks don’t hesitate to bust Willis’ chops even if they have to invent excuses for it – but, shucks and darn, it was just “impossible” for Janice to come back and make amends. Willis said she couldn’t. so there. Instead, she sucks up sympathy on other threads.
Now we have a couple of toothless chihuahua’s trying to once again gnaw away at Willis because he isn’t PC enough for their oh so delicate sensibilities.