(Note – I saved this for the weekend, when people who might read this would likely be more relaxed. This is not the usual fare for WUWT, but it is something that is revealing, enlightening, entertaining, and educational, while at the same time sad and sunny all at once. If you want science, skip this article. If you want a perspective on life, read on – Anthony)
Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Warning: Viewer discretion advised. This post discusses adult themes and content. Oh, not the usual adult themes we get on TV, like D: Suggestive Dialogue or V: Violence. Instead, it is a discussion of the following well-known wanted criminal:
Figure 1. The one with many names … the Pale Rider. The Grim Reaper. The Angel Of Death. Thanatos. Azrael. Cronus.
I’ve been thinking a lot about death lately. The gorgeous ex-fiancee is a Family Nurse Practitioner, and she and I have been taking care of her 86-year-old father in his final illness. “Billy”, that’s what the rest of the guys in the band always called him, so that’s what I called him when I came to be friends and play music with him over the past four years. He was a jazz drummer his whole life, and a very good one. Having had the honor of playing music with him myself, I can testify that he was a very skillful, fun, and inventive percussionist. But when he came out of the hospital back in February, he hung up his sticks and said that was it. His time with music was over. I knew then that his days were short. So we’ve been giving him all the love and support possible in the face of his approaching death.
Here in the developed world, we tend to distance ourselves from death. But in the third world, it is ever-present. The first dead man I ever saw who wasn’t rouged, perfumed, and embalmed was on a side street in Trench Town, a dirt-poor, less than fragrant, and more than turbulent suburb of Kingston, Jamaica. It was a strange scene.
Trench Town is not a good place to be at night. Even in the middle of a hot afternoon, it’s a place where you feel a need to take an occasional look over your shoulder. I was walking down the street, the only melanin-deficient guy in sight. (I hear that the new PC term is “melanin-challenged”, by the way, to avoid hurting people’s feelings by making them feel deficient … but then I’ve never been politically correct.)
In any case, halfway down the block, a man was lying in the gutter. At first I thought he was just drunk and sleeping it off, until I got nearer, and I saw he was lying in the proverbial pool of blood. I remember particularly the sound of the flies. I was reminded of when I used to kill and butcher cows and sheep and other animals out in the farmers’ fields for a living, and how fast the flies would appear. Seeing that man lying dead in a cloud of flies, in the middle of just another average city afternoon, was a shock to me. The cities I was accustomed to back then didn’t feature much in the way of dead bodies in the gutter. I was beyond surprise.
But the bigger shock was the reaction of the people in the street. By and large it was ho, hum, another day in the life, step over his corpse and keep going, Many people looked once and didn’t give him a second glance. The public level of concern seemed to be on the order of “It’s the tropics, mon, cover him up ‘fore he stinks”.
I realized then that in such places down at the bottom of the economic ladder, the death of a stranger is no big deal. Oh, I don’t mean that people don’t mourn or grieve their loved ones the way it happens in the industrialized countries. That’s the same everywhere. But in countries where death is more common, countries where most families have lost a child, countries where malaria or some other tropical fever takes away the young and otherwise healthy, everyone lives in much closer proximity and familiarity with death and the dead. Like the song says about a tropical murder,
Nobody talks about it no more, though it happened just a week ago. But people get by and people get high, in the tropics, they come, and they go.
A decade later in the Solomon Islands, my good friend Willie died after a long wasting illness. Willie was a Solomon Islander who was loved by all, and in those fractious, jealous, contentious islands, that says a lot. There was no funeral home in the Solomons then, may not be one now. So family and friends do everything. Willie died in “Number 9”, which is rumored to be a hospital. In reality it is a collection of buildings left over from World War II that vaguely resembles a hospital. From the curbside, that is. If you don’t focus too closely.
I went there as soon as I heard Willie had died. Up close, it’s an ancient, sad collection of sticky hot rooms baking in the sun, most without even fans to cool the patients. I was already sweating before I got inside.
When I went in the room, Willie’s wife was there, weeping. I joined her. We spoke for a bit. She had brought his clothes, she said, to dress him. She wept. I wept. She made no move to dress him. We sweated. We waited. Solomon Islanders are good at that.
After a while, I asked if she wanted help dressing him. Oh, yes, she said. I stood up, and walked over and lifted the sheet off his legs … ah, the legs that used to run had been replaced by bone and parchment. I lifted them up one by one. They were almost weightless. She and I slid them into his pants. Dressing a dead man proved to be much harder than I thought. Perhaps unsurprisingly, their level of cooperation is quite low. I had the crazy urge to apologize to him for moving his legs. Finally the pants were on. After that it was easier. With his pants on, I could take off the sheet entirely. We put his shirt on. I’d been very close with him for two years. I’d never seen either the pants or the shirt before. My sense was that they were “Solomons new”, meaning bought from a Chinese store which imports used clothing by the bale. Willie looked good in his new outfit. I hugged his wife, and left her to her sorrow. It was the first time I had ever touched a dead body.
Tropical death plays no favorites. My friend Turk was in his forties, a local airline pilot. He went into Number 9 to have a doctor look at his hemorrhoids, and never came out … you learn to watch your step very carefully on small tropical islands, and in particular, do your best to never step into a “hospital”.
I was back in the US when my father died. The gorgeous ex-fiancee was his nurse in his final days. He refused an operation for his bladder cancer. Said he wouldn’t leave my beloved stepmother broke, and besides, he’d done everything he wanted to do. He’d been a well-known architect, made money, built the house he lived in, his kids all loved him, things were getting painful, there wasn’t much left to keep him here. Enough, he said. He didn’t want to go to the hospital, he wanted to die at home.
Sadly, bladder cancer is a painful way to die. When the pain got bad, he asked me to see if I could get some pills that he could take to end his life. He was in chronic intermittent but intense pain. I did not want to, but I had no choice, and I set out to do that. I would have said that I could have found the pills, because I’ve always knows lots of people with strange proclivities. But for whatever reason, I was unable to find any downers. I looked for reds, or any kind of barbiturates. I asked my friends in low places and I never got more than a couple of pills.
And so each time I saw my Dad again, and the pain was even worse, I had to confess that I had failed him. It was gut-wrenching, worse each time. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone.
The night that he died, the gorgeous ex-fiancee and I went to his house. Again I had to tell him that I hadn’t found the pills … dear friends, he smiled and said what he’d said the other times, that it was OK. It broke my heart. I hugged him and turned away so he couldn’t see my face.
That night I found out how thin the line is between tragedy and comedy. I had brought my guitar, because I knew Dad always loved to hear any of his kids play music. I sat on his bed. He was moaning as the waves of pain rolled over him. I sang for him the songs of his childhood that I knew he loved. I sang him the songs of my childhood that he used to sing to me, as he shifted restlessly and groaned in pain. Finally I was weeping too hard to go on singing, but I kept playing the guitar for a bit. And then I broke down entirely, and the music stopped. I couldn’t play another chord.
He opened his eyes, and he smiled his smile that went so deep, and he said “Oh please, don’t stop playing … I swear I’m not moaning on account of your music!”
We both broke up laughing. I didn’t know I could laugh and weep at the same time. I don’t know how he could laugh and moan at the same time. He fell asleep with without saying another word as I played and wept. What can you do with a man like that?
I left at around ten that night and went home. The gorgeous ex-fiancee said she thought she should spend the night with him. I got up at four thirty and went out commercial fishing, trolling for salmon. Around noon, my dear nurse called on the ship’s radio. I knew what the message was before I got to the microphone. I was glad I was on the ocean. I kept fishing, it calmed and soothed me. I was fishing with my long-time shipmate and fishing partner. He understood my silence.
My mom’s death, on the other hand, surprised everyone. When she knew she was dying of lung cancer, she wrote and asked me to come see her. I was in the Solomon Islands at the time, but that’s not a request you can ignore. I flew to Sedona, Arizona, where she was parking the RV she’d lived in for four years by herself, traveling all around the US. She was 69 at the time. I found out something strange. The main reason she wanted to see me was to find out whether I took my dad’s side of the ancient argument and whether, like him, I blamed her regarding their divorce thirty-four years earlier … go figure. She wanted absolution from me, or at least to know that I didn’t blame her for what happened, thirty plus years in the past.
I told her the truth, that I didn’t have a dog in their fight. I said that I used to think that one or the other of them had done wrong, and to be sure they had each caused the other one a lot of grief and sorrow, they had hurt each other deeply. But by then, I was old enough to know that both of them were just fools whose intentions were good, and that they had both striven in their own way to make it work. The fact that they couldn’t make it work was not important, I knew they’d both given it their best shot. She liked that, and she sent me on my way.
About a week later, she took a fistful of pills and was found dead in the morning. I was glad she found the pills somewhere, lung cancer’s not a good way to go. I was even gladder that she hadn’t asked me to find them for her. The family believed for years that I’d given her the pills because I’d visited just before her death, and they knew I’d tried to find pills for my dad. But I hadn’t given her anything but love and support, as best as I knew how, and at the end of the day no one ever knew where she got the pills.
Later, when we were living again in Fiji, my daughter was about 12. One night, the matriarch of a Fijian family I worked with died. Her daughter, grand-daughter, and son-in-law all worked alongside me for the same company. I took my daughter to the wake, which was the very next day. Without embalmers, tropical funerals are never delayed long. It was late, there were only a few people still there. The night was warm and enfolding. In back of the house was a wooden table. It was spread with a nice cloth. The matriarch lay in state on the table. The family welcomed us. We gave them our best wishes and condolences. I had told my daughter I wanted her to touch the dead woman. She caressed her shoulder. The mom saw it and smiled. I didn’t want my child to be the stranger to death that I had been. Touching a dead person makes it all real.
There’s an old tale about these matters, one that the Fijians understood without ever knowing the story. A man goes to a sage and asks him to write down a good luck charm. The sage gets out his inkstone and brush, grinds some ink, and on a crisp new sheet of rice paper he writes something down, folds it up and gives it to the man. The man opens it and reads it. In exquisite calligraphic script it says:
Grandfather dies.
Father dies.
Son dies.
The man can’t believe it. “What have you done! Did my enemies pay you? This is a curse on my entire family, it’s not a good luck charm!”
“Ah, no, that’s the best good luck charm I can give you,” the sage calmly replied. “If it happens in any other order, that is very bad luck …”
The first person I saw actually die was my sister Kristen. Well, half-sister, but us kids all decided among us early on that half- and step- were out, we were all brothers and sisters. She was about 50 at the time. She’d gone to the hospital to get some tests for intestinal discomfort, walked in the door, and passed out in the reception area. So they checked her, and after testing they decided that they had to do an immediate exploratory operation to see what was wrong. Her mother, who was our beloved stepmother Virginia, and a bunch of us brothers and sisters and I all went immediately to the hospital, to be there when she woke up from the operation.
When the operation was over around noon, the surgeon called us all in. She started talking, and she only got partway through the explanation of the operation before she started crying. She said that a 6-foot section of my sister’s intestines had died, and that was too much of a loss for her to live. She said medicine was powerless. She said when they saw what it was and how bad it was, they immediately closed up and got out to prevent further harm. They did not know why part of her had died, but there was no human power that could save her. She had maybe 24 hours. That was it.
We were stunned. What now, we said. The doctor said my sister was out of the OR and that she would be waking up soon. She’d likely stay awake for maybe an hour or two, perhaps a few more. But then the pain would start, and so she would be on a morphine drip. After that, she’d be awake some but she would mostly sleep. I felt so bad for the doctor. She had all of her knowledge and all of her skills and tools, and here she was, totally powerless. I could see she was shaken, frustrated and sad.
So we were all there when Kristen woke up. Of course, she was glad and surprised to see us. She remembered passing out in the lobby. But she was still kind of groggy. So as she became more alert we mostly made small talk. We told he she’d had an operation. We hadn’t though ahead about who would tell her the bad news, we didn’t have a plan or anything, the usual family deal. Finally she asked what the doctor had said about the outcome of the operation, what they had found … silence.
After a long pause, one of my brothers stepped in. But he kind of danced around the subject. He is a lovely man and he did his best, but he described it in all kinds of generalities, words like “preparing for the end” and “short time” and “so sorry”, and “inevitable”, but nothing concrete. I could see he wasn’t getting through, my sister wasn’t following him.
Finally I couldn’t stand her confusion. I said something like “Kristen, the doctors operated, but they can’t help you. They said that part of your intestines died, and there is nothing that they can do. They say that you will die within a day.”
Silence.
“Can’t be”, she said after a bit of thought. “I feel fine.” She wouldn’t believe me. I repeated that she was certain to die within twenty-four hours, by far the saddest and most final news I’ve ever had to deliver in my life. She looked in my eyes. She didn’t like what she saw. She turned to Virginia. “Mom,” she said, “that’s not true, is it?”
Her mother had to do then what must assuredly be one of the most difficult things that a human being can do. She had to tell her darling, her joy, her only daughter that she had only a day to live. Ah, my friends, I can only fervently wish that no one would ever, ever in their life have to say what she said to her daughter then—Oh, sweetheart, I’m so sorry. The doctors say you only have a day to live. It’s true.
I couldn’t bear watching Virginia say it, how could she bear the saying of it herself?
Silence …
It can’t be true, my sister finally replied.
Yes, it is true, my stepmother said.
It is not true!, said Kristen.
Yes, it is true!
IS NOT!
IS TOO!
They voices had gradually raised until they were almost shouting, and all of us realized at about the same instant that it was such a prototypical grade-school playground level argument, and we all laughed at the absurdity. When death is present in the room, our feelings simply overflow, and tragedy and comedy get all confused and mixed up.
We talked for a while after that. Fortunately none of us had much that was left unsaid with Kristen, we were always pretty honest with each other. She’d been a good kid and was a good woman, and we told her so. So we talked, and even laughed some more. But all too soon, the pain from the operation started hitting her. Pretty soon, I couldn’t take it any more, my heart wouldn’t bear it. In the afternoon, I left her with her mom and the others and went home.
But then in the early evening, my brother called. He said everyone had gone home but him. He said Virginia couldn’t stop weeping, she was beside herself, and another sister had taken her home. He said he had to leave, he needed to do some things and then go to work the next day.
Well, there was no way she was going to die alone. That was not on the list of options. So once again I drove the solitary miles and miles back to the hospital. When I got there she was sleeping. She woke once, but didn’t say anything. She saw me, and it seemed to comfort her, or perhaps that was just my wishful thinking. Death was in the room. I stayed well to the side. Time slowed. I held her hand, and moistened her lips with ice water with the little pink lollipop sponges they use for that, and told her that she’d been a good sister to me and a good friend, and she had been, too. Around two in the morning, her breathing slowed, and then she slipped away.
I found out then that there is an odd kind of peace in being alone in a room with someone who has just died. After all the anguish and the turbulent emotions, the succeeding absolutely inalterable finality of her death obviated the need for any further struggle on anyone’s part. There was nothing more she could do. There was nothing more I could do for her. She was beyond my reach. Death had left the room, and with it, the need for wariness. I sat in the room with her for a while, and wept, and turned off my mind. The silence was so deep it was almost subsonic. If that silence of death had a color, it would be the darkest ebon, the deepest Elvis velvet black. I wrapped the silence around me and listened to my own breath, the only sound in the room.
Then after a while, I pressed the call button, and the doctor came and pronounced her dead.
===========
The main thing that I have learned in all of my curious interactions with the dead and the dying has been to take Death as my advisor. I have learned that Death gives me better advice than anyone. When it comes to sage wisdom, I found that Death beats all the books and advice columnists and psychologists and grief counselors and what all the authorities say. Whenever I’m all in a fluster about how bad things are at the moment, how everything’s going pear-shaped and I just can’t take it, at that time (if I have my wits about me) I’ll I look over my left shoulder and ask Death what he thinks about it all.
By this point, I know what he’ll say. He’ll say no, Willis, don’t worry about this penny ante booshwa. That’s nothing, he tells me … I haven’t touched you yet …
All of us, myself assuredly included, tend to live as though we are immortal. We talk of wasting time as if we had it to waste, when it is our most precious possession and we have so little of it. Taking Death as my advisor cuts through that fatal illusion. He reminds me that my days are numbered, that I need to live every day to the fullest. He tells me to work and play and laugh and produce and treat each hour as though it were my last. He reminds me that I am at war, and I need to acknowledge that this might be my ultimate battle. And as such, it is imperative that I forth to that battle in a warrior’s spirit of true abandon, holding nothing back.
Which brings me back to where I started this roundabout tale, back to William Alfred Schneider, my dear friend Billy, fellow musician, and father-in-law. I finally got to know him after they moved out here. The man was a jazz legend. He got his first gig playing drums in a St. Louis strip joint when he was a teenager in the 1940’s, and never looked back. He was the drummer for Barbara Streisand at the Crystal Palace in St. Louis in the fifties, and was a fixture in the famed “Gaslight Square”. He played with Liberace. He said when “Lee”, as he called Liberace, went on a minimum no-frills tour, he took only two people—Billy, and Liberace’s hairdresser … with Billy smiling his silly grin and slightly emphasizing the word “hairdresser”. Unusually for a man born in the 1920’s, he didn’t care in the slightest what someone did in bed, as long as they could play good music and put on an entertaining show. But he was always ahead of his time.
Billy played with Frank Sinatra, and with Dave Brubeck. He toured with Roger Williams. In the 1950’s Billy was the drummer for “The Nervous Set”, starring the recently-deceased Larry Hagman as the lead singer. It was the first Broadway musical with a jazz quartet instead of an orchestra, Kenny Burrell was the guitarist. Among other innovations of the musical, Billy played the tympani along with his normal jazz drum kit, to fill out the sound. You can hear Billy’s understated musical style on the drums here. The song is a masterpiece of late 1950’s angst, with lyrics that were hilarious in their own way then and now. The musical both celebrated and mocked the dawn of the “Beat Generation”. Jack Kerouac came to a performance. He was drunk, and tried to force his way backstage, they wouldn’t let him in. Billy’s stories went on and on …
He went legally blind a couple of decades ago, macular degeneration. But he was doing OK, still playing music, until his wife had a stroke. She was half-paralyzed and bedridden after that, which was hard on him, and he stopped playing. About four years ago, my gorgeous ex-fiancee talked them into moving to California from St. Louis so we could take care of them. She found a nursing home for her mom, and we found him a mobile home to buy in a nearby mobile home park … he laughed about that. He said it proved he wasn’t trailer trash, he lived in a mobile home. He visited his wife in the nursing home almost every single day until her death a couple of years ago. She was the envy of the place to have a husband like that, all the poor souls in the nursing home who got one or two visits a year were jealous of her. I think he was atoning for previous misdeeds, the man was a jazz musician, and by all accounts a tom cat … but atone he assuredly did, and impeccably. When she needed him, really needed him, he was by her side every day. The only way we could keep him from going was to tell him we’d go ourselves, and we did, week after week, to give him some days off. He paid off all of his debts to his wife with true devotion.
Right up to the end his mind never weakened, and curiously, he was one of the few people with whom I could discuss my climate research. You have to understand that I’m a long ways out of the loop compared to many climate researchers. They typically have some circle of peers around them with whom they can discuss their ideas about the climate—other researchers, professors, graduate students, mentors, people from other departments and fields, they work and publish in teams and groups and can bounce ideas off each other.
I do all of my research alone. Around here, I have Billy and one other guy to talk to, neither one a climate scientist but both interested intelligent layman, and that’s it. So it was always a pleasure to read my work to him. He had me read each piece out loud, and then asked good questions. And we always had the music.
But his kidneys finally betrayed him. His last public appearance was in January, a couple of half-hour sets. He was as good as ever. Almost blind and nearly deaf even with his hearing aids, he never missed a beat. Then he was hospitalized, and they had to re-inflate him with a carload of IV fluids and such. His other daughter came out from Tennessee, she was a huge help during and after his hospitalization. But then, of course, she had to go back to work. She left with our profound thanks.
When Billy came out of the hospital, he told me he wasn’t going to play any more music. I said, you mean not play any more music in public? No, he said, he was done with music … my heart sank. He’d said the same thing when his wife had her stroke, and he didn’t play any music at all for a couple of years back then. But when he moved to California and still wasn’t playing, I knew that if I could get him to play again, he’d live much longer. So I just kept bugging him to play … and finally he gave in. We started to play a bit. I put my keyboard, amplifier, bass, microphone and guitar at his place so he could rock out anytime I or one of his friends was there. But he was kind of half-hearted about it, like he hadn’t made up his mind to get back into it.
And then he met some local musicians, and one of them told him that an old drum student of Billy’s from 50 years ago named George Marsh was now a music professor at the local university. Well, that put the cat among the pigeons. Just the rumor of George Marsh did what I couldn’t do. Billy immediately started seriously practicing, hours every day—Billy Schneider wasn’t going to have his student show up and find his old teacher unable to play the drums, oh, no, that wasn’t on. And so by the time George Marsh (who is now in his seventies and still teaching) made it over to his house, Billy was seriously playing his drums again and had his old chops back. And for the next four years, he played a lot, both with me and with various combinations of other musician friends in his house, as well as playing various gigs again in public as he’d done for so long. He played with a floating jazz group at a local restaurant, you’ve never seen a man so happy as when the band clicked.
Here’s a funny story. Billy met a friend of mine who’s up to his ears in Haitian drumming. So Billy started trading lessons with him, showing him jazz drumming in exchange for being taught something about Haitian drumming. Here’s the crazy part. My friend was taught Haitian drumming by a man named Kendrick. Kendrick was a very good drummer with sticks as well, in part because at the start of his drumming career he’d once spent six months on the waiting list to become for several years a student of George Marsh … who was, of course, taught drums by Billy himself, and so the circle was complete.
So when Billy announced he was hanging up his sticks, my heart grieved, I knew his time was short … not good news. Curiously, he told me that in some ways it was a great relief, because the music had always been a burden for him. I understood what he meant. I’m a musician, but not like him. I never practiced, even when I was making my living playing music. I just played and played and played, Oh, sometimes I’d play one song over and over for three hours, but I never called it practice. You’re doing the same thing, but from a very different point of view of music. I hate to practice, and I love to play, despite the fact that they’re the same. In my opinion, they call it “playing music” for a reason—because it’s not ever supposed to be work or practice. My aim is to play music like children play their games, for the simple joy of the sound and the passion of creating something stirring and moving and lovely.
But Billy was old-school. For him, there was practice, and there was performing. Billy had always driven himself to practice, a minimum of three hours a day until the day he quit. It was why he was so good. And now, he said, he was just tired to the bone. He didn’t want to practice like that any more … and if he couldn’t practice three hours a day, he wouldn’t play at all.
I told him that was OK by me. I told him he’d played music for people all his life, and all they’d had to do was sit back and listen. I said that now I could return the favor. I’d play, and all he had to do was listen. He laughed, he liked that plan. We joked about him being my captive audience. And so when I visited, I played for him the tunes that he and I had played together, over the following weeks, as he lay back in his easy chair. We talked about everything, including his impending death.
His health got worse and worse. The doctors said that he was a candidate for dialysis. But like my father, he refused treatment. His music was done, he said, and he’d had enough of being old and blind and deaf and most of all, he was just so tired. The only medical treatment he said he wanted was a morphine drip if things got bad.
For a while he could still take care of himself. We begged him to come live with us, but he was fiercely independent. His proud warrior’s spirit refused to let him to leave his mobile home even after he began to fail. So about two weeks ago, the gorgeous ex-fiancee and I moved in with him in shifts, with her there one night and me there the next. He was mostly sleeping. His voice grew less clear, with gaps in the words. I was reminded of times in the past when some friend and I were talking on our fishing boat radios, and my friend was in a boat going over the horizon. As the boat moved farther away, my friend’s words became indistinct, with static and gaps like Billy’s words, and both of us saying, Do you copy, do you read me, over? … I could see Billy was frustrated that his body wouldn’t obey him. It wasn’t that his mind couldn’t form the words. It was just that he was sailing over the horizon, and slowly getting too far away to send back final communications to those left behind on the shore …
When the pain got bad, his loving, ever-patient nurse, my dear wife, got him a prescription for morphine … and we dripped it into his mouth, just a bit from time to time, like he’d wanted. I think the fear of the pain was worse than the pain itself, and the morphine eased both his body and his mind.
On Friday night, he was nearing the end. I went down to his place, and my dear lady went home to feed the cat and get some sleep. It was proper. She had been at my father’s bedside when he died, and on that night long ago I had gone home. So it was right she should go home now. After she left, I put on some of Billy’s recordings from back in the day, the soundtrack from “The Nervous Set”, recordings he’d done with other musicians. I held his hand, and stroked his head. I sang to him. I told him he’d been a good husband and father, although neither were strictly true. But like my own mom and dad, he’d done his best with the poor interpersonal tools that were to hand in the 40’s and 50’s, and that’s all I could ask.
When I could feel his death approaching, I made myself small and turned sideways. I’m very careful when Death is in the room. First off, if you look at that joker’s eye-sockets, you can tell right away that his vision isn’t of the finest. Plus, his record isn’t that sterling either. It’s because he grew up outdoors, that’s my theory at least, where there’s plenty of room to swing a scythe. As a result, too often he’s been known to misunderestimate the distances involved inside a house, so his scythe bumps the refrigerator on the backswing or something, and as a result the blade hits the wrong man, and boom—Dick Nixon lives for another 117 years, and some good guy ends up dying young.
And although these days I’m mostly out of danger in that regard, being neither that young nor that good, I did not want to get mistaken for Billy right about then.
But Death found the right man, in my opinion at least, and probably in Billy’s opinion as well, and he died around nine o’clock. His breath went out, and it never came back. I leaned over and kissed his cooling forehead. His other daughter later said that for years, he’d had an evening gig, and the second set always started at 9:20 … that made sense. Much as he would have liked to stay and talk to me, he had to leave, the boys were headed back to the bandstand, Barbara Striesand was already on stage, the next set was about to start …
So I turned off his old recordings, and once again, I found myself sitting alone in a silent room with someone I’d just watched die. Again I wept. And again I took solace in the profundity of the silence, and in the soothing fact that there was nothing pressing any more, no urgency, nothing he needed to do, nothing I could do for him.
Then, when the time of silence was over, I went to do the necessary tasks. But of course, as I have learned in my life, death often brings both tragedy and farce, and this was no exception. Earlier in the day I’d called the mortuary, to see what the procedure was for them to pick up his body. The Mortuary Lady said they couldn’t pick him up without a Death Certificate. OK, I said, how do I get one of those? Oh, she said, you can’t do it, his doctor has to sign it.
Mmmm … but what if his doctor is out of town? Because, you know, he is out of town. Until Monday. And Billy will likely die before then.
Well, she said, after he dies you should call the County Coroner. They will send a doctor over to sign the certificate. They always handle that. It’s not a problem
So I did … but being a skeptical fellow, I did it right then, I didn’t wait until afterwords. I told the nice Coroner Lady the situation. She said oh, no, we don’t handle dead people at home in bed. You should call the Sheriff’s Department. They always handle that. It’s not a problem.
So I did, right then. But the nice Sheriff Lady said they didn’t deal with dead people at home in bed. She said just call the emergency number 9-1-1. They always handle that. It’s not a problem … I guess not many people die at home with their family any more. Eventually my doctor said, just call the local police. They’ll know what to do. So after I’d sat in the silence in his bedroom for a while, I did that very thing.
However, the nice Police Lady said that unfortunately, his passing had to be classified as an “Unattended Death”, all capitalized and everything, because there was no doctor present. Again I was reminded of the difference between the first and the third world. What we call “an Unattended Death” they call “a death”—the presence of a doctor is a rarity, and absolutely not a necessity. In any case, the nice Police Lady said that she was sorry, but since his doctor was out of town, they’d have to send a detective out to investigate the Unattended Death for signs of foul play … plus of course the Emergency Medical Technician had to come out to to make sure he wasn’t still alive.
The mind works strangely at such times. I was tempted to say that it was clear that he wasn’t pining for the fjords, and that I took “didn’t breathe for the last fifteen minutes” as kind of a clue to his general state of animation, but I forbore … I could see that I was now just a pawn in the bureaucratic machinery. I had entered the zone where it didn’t matter what I said or did.
The detective turned out to be a pleasant young man. Clearly, however, he was hoping that this would turn out to be the crime of the century, that I’d just snuffed Howard Hughes or something. He came in, and first thing, we had to fill out some paperwork. I figured he’d want to see the body first, but no, it’s the government. Paperwork first, last, and in between, it’s the way we render modern death sterile and unthreatening.
While we were doing that, the EMT wagon arrived. I’d asked the nice Police Lady if they could leave the lights and sirens off to avoid disturbing the neighbors, and they did so. The EMT came in and went in the bedroom to see the body. He came out and told us that Billy was really most sincerely dead. He had a whole other set of paperwork, which I signed, and he gave his condolences and left. But of course he couldn’t sign the Death Certificate, so I’m not sure what his purpose was.
After the paperwork was done, the Detective said he wanted to see the “scene”. He did manage not to call it a “crime scene”. We went into the bedroom. He took out his camera and said he was sorry, but by law he had to take pictures for the record. I said I understood. He asked me to take the covers off of Billy’s body. I could see that he was disappointed to find out that it was just an ancient dead man weighing about 80 pounds, call it 35 kg, with pipe stem legs and sunken eyes, and not a crime victim of any kind. So the Detective took his pictures. And knowing that it made absolutely no sense, I put the covers back on Billy and tucked them in around him because it was night time, and I didn’t want him to be cold. We are truly bizarre creatures, we humans …
Then the Detective asked if I had a measuring tape. He said he had to measure the distance of the body from the walls of the room for his sketch of the scene, but he didn’t have a tape … I got the tape measure. Somewhere in there, it seems the gears in my mind had stripped entirely, and I found myself wandering around the bedroom, numbly measuring how far it was from the walls to Billy’s body while the detective wrote down the numbers … life is endlessly strange. Somewhere in the bowels of the local Police Department there is an official “Unaccompanied Death” form with a sketch on it showing that William A. Schneider aged 86 died approximately nine feet from the south bedroom wall of his mobile home, and about seven feet from the east bedroom wall …
When all that was done, all the measurements and pictures taken, all the papers signed, I asked the Detective if now the mortuary folks could pick him up.
The Detective said no, first I had to get the Death Certificate …
I wanted to pound my head against the wall, but I was afraid I wouldn’t feel a thing if I did. It was that kind of evening. So I told the Detective the whole story, about the Mortuary Lady, and the County Coroner Lady, and the Sheriff Lady, and the Police Lady, and my Doctor’s advice, and he took pity on me. He called his boss, and she called someone she knew at the Coroners Office. In about five minues she called him back and said OK, Billy could be moved, the doctor could sign off when he returned on Monday.
So the Detective told me the body could go, and he gave his condolences. He was sincere and kind and professional throughout, and I thanked him for that and said I knew he had to do what he had done, and I was glad it was him that had done it. When he left I went back inside and called the mortuary.
Soon, the folks from the mortuary arrived. They brought a gurney. The mobile home was tight quarters. They had to stand the gurney on end to get it around the corners to his bedroom. I couldn’t figure out how they would get him out, there was nowhere near enough room. They wrapped him in a white shroud and put him on the gurney. Then they started lashing him on, with three webbed belts. I left the bedroom and sat down in the living room to wait.
When they came out of the bedroom, I found out that the gurney folded down, and it had wheels on one end, so they could use it like a hand truck. They came breezing out of the bedroom, wheeling him on what looked just like a hand truck, wrapped in white in a standing position. Their sudden appearance was so bizarre, they were moving fairly fast, or perhaps I was moving fairly slow, but in any case they looked for all the world like museum curators on the Discovery Channel merrily rolling one of the mummies to a new display location …
I must confess, I broke out laughing at sudden appearance of Billy disguised as a mummy on wheels in some museum. The attendants looked at me strangely, but I suppose they’d seen all kinds of grief, so they just keep wheeling the mummy on out to the van. Yeah, I know, I’m likely going to hell for laughing right then, but I knew that Billy would have seen the humor in it. He was a rascal and a gentleman and a rogue, crabby and thoughtlessly hard on the women in his family who loved him nonetheless, a wonderful musician and a bad family man who somehow managed to successfully raise a couple great girls to productive adulthood, and always someone with a deep sense of humor and a profound enjoyment of the ridiculous, inane, bizarre things of this world. He’d have laughed at the mummy image. My old shipmate, the one I was fishing with when I heard of my father’s passing thirty years ago, remarked on Billy’s death, “We don’t grieve for him. We grieve for our own loss, that he’s no longer around to laugh with us.”
Anyhow, that’s why my mind has been revisiting the topic of death lately. I have no great insights gained from all of this, except to keep listening to Death’s excellent advice, and to keep the gas pedal firmly pressed to the floor. Oh, and what George Marsh told me. He said he’d been meaning to get over to see Billy again, he’d been invited, but this and that had gotten in the way, time went by, and now Billy was dead … he said he wasn’t ever going to let that happen again if he could help it.
After Billy’s death, I went for some long walks on the cliffs overlooking the ocean with my gorgeous ex-fiancee, and we let the immensity of the water and the insistent wind and the endless waves wash away the sorrow and the struggle of the last few months. We both fished commercially together, we both are children of the waves. We saw a whale spouting far out in the vasty deeps—there is no better balm for the heart than untamed wildness.
I give my good lady immense props for her role in all of this. She has been the captain of our good ship since the first day, I was just the crew. And having skippered my share of boats, I assure you that crewman is by far the easier job. Crewmen sleep well at night, while the skipper tosses and turns and considers tomorrow. Billy was not always nice or kind to her or her sister, but they both bore up under it without complaint to him, and simply kept supporting him and her mother in every way they wanted and needed, from before the time they moved out here until their deaths. I told that good woman that she was the perfect daughter, that she did everything they needed and more, and that she had done it with style and with a warm and open heart. She has my profound admiration and undying thanks for her unwavering support of both of our parents in their extremity.
My conclusion from all of this? Hold your family and friends close, remember to taste the strawberries, play your own music whatever that might mean to you, and do what you love … because the night is never far away.
Best regards, and thanks for coming on the journey. Everyone grieves differently. This time around, writing seems to be part of how I do it. Tonight, the midnight moon is nearly full, with a single band of altostratus on one side of the sky and a hint of summer in the air. The coyotes are mumbling to each other on the far ridge, the saw-whet owl is sharpening his lethal blade. The intoxicating smell of the lemon tree in the yard lies thick on the dark air. The moonlit forest around my house is alive with unseen eyes, predator and prey alike, hidden death on all sides for rabbits and mice … stay well, dear friends, life is far too short.
w.
William A. “Billy” Schneider
Jazz drummer extraordinaire
1928-2014
He lived and died surrounded by his music
and loved by his family and friends.
Sleep well, my dear companion.
neillusion: I agree, Willis’ reaction was out of proportion. He has been, what we call “triggered”. This is where a present experience triggers the reaction that comes form many past experiences. If someone rejects you you feel rejected but also your mind cross references all past rejections and these contribute to the overall reaction, in particular your first ever experience of rejection.
markx: religion doesn’t provide any help whatsoever. Would you like to see an actual data point, rather than theorizing?
@safeprayer
I’m not sure I understand your point, seems centred on rejection. I don’t thin anyone has rejected Willis’s creative writing. It is good imo.
Uh…would you know who take your ill mannered “safeprayer” back to his playpen? You should have known he was going to follow you into an adult conversation, bless your heart.
willis: question. If love is real, what is it?
Willis
Great article, however, massively disappointed in your reaction to Janice, who seems like a nice person.
The article, I think, set into motion for most readers, deeply personal thoughts about their own lives. I myself am agnostic, because as a logical thinking person I don’t know if there is a god. Perhaps I’m confused as to how an atheist can know for sure in a scientific way that there is no god…
WIllis’ ‘Billy’ post is not about science. To me It is about the very personal anecdotal portrayal of emotions experienced by an individual involved in the human condition. I do not see an issue with Janice’s first comment on this thread because she is doing what Willis’ did; that is sharing her emotional portrayal which happens to be religious.
But, having said that, there is more. On science threads I virtually never read Janice’s numerous comments which often contain religious references when she frequently participates in science dialogs in many WUWT articles. I first scan her comments in science dialogs superficially for religious verbiage then I usually do not read her comments when religious references are present in science dialogs. Also, I do not actively discourage her religious interjections on science posts where religion is simply irrelevant to a dialog on science, but I often think that it should be more openly questioned as to the appropriateness of her religion in a science dialogs.
John
neillusion: I used rejection as an EXAMPLE of triggering that most of us are familiar with. Where the response is often out of proportion to the offence. I did not guess as to the particular emotion triggered in Willis’ case, simply to say that Willis has reacted out of proportion to the original email.
Pamela: ill mannered? Again, what does this mean? You see I find lots of people making a great deal of effort to prove that we are just a fortuitous collection of atoms without purpose. Yet on the other hand making a whole lot of effort to further the cause, to uphold rights and the value of life, and may I say it the value of manners. I did not use the word hypocritical to be ill mannered, I used it in a factual sense.
The problem I am highlighting is that Willis is using concepts and definitions that come form a judeo-christian world view, and the slamming down the very first person who speaks to him from that world view.
Willis: You write a piece that implies life has a value, by mourning the loss of those who once lived. You talk as if love and friendship are valuable things. You speak of death as if it is a bad thing, even though it is regrettably inevitable. All of this implies a denial of atheism, since you are partially borrowing a value system, and axiomatic definitions from the judaeo-christian world view.
By your writing, you apparently believe in the objective value of life, you believe in the reality of emotions, and you believe in the objective value of friendship, and you believe in some definition of “bad” being the antithesis to some objective and real definition of good.
The only axiomatic definitions that you are not borrowing from a theistic world view which needs eternity for these definitions to have objective persistent actual meaning, is the Christian belief that it is ONLY premature death that is bad or sad, a life cut short. Generally we understand that death is a GOOD thing, that you have run your race, completed the challenge and will be rewarded for your good service (if you have any).
I have witnessed 7 of my elderly friends die within the last year or so, and for me each one was a celebration, not a sentimental, what if, what could have been would have been should have been, but a genuine celebration of success, and triumph.
A. Scott says:
April 20, 2014 at 2:52 am
Thanks, A. Scott. It wasn’t “a bit pretentiously ‘preachy'”, it was a typical Christian sermon—same style, content, and tone as a hundred thousand sermons in churches across the US every Sunday. Give’m the Rapture, hit them with a Bible verse. Then give them fear of Hell, and another Bible verse. Talk about how death was conquered, then another Bible verse, and wrap it all up. That’s not sympathy for someone’s loss. That’s an old-school Christian sermon.
Was it “intentionally proselytizing”? Well, since her sole purpose (other than a small soupçon of sympathy to flavor the mix) clearly was to convert me to Christianity, I doubt it was “accidentally proselytizing”. However, her motives seem immaterial to me.
As I asked above, if a Muslim stands up, gives a sermon with quotations from the Koran, and tries to convert all the listeners at a Christian eulogy to Islam, does it make it less intrusive and offensive if he may be doing so with the finest of intentions?
w.
I’m just glad Janice is not Islamic….
…those fatwas can get nasty
evanmjones says:
April 20, 2014 at 6:08 am
=============================================
I agree entirely.
Willis, thanks for sharing.
Janice, please understand, the implied threat of eternal damnation that your sincere writing presents, is offensive to present at this time, when not asked for. Willis apologized for over reacting, your apology here would be healing.
I have my own religious views In a philosophical conversation I will share them. When asked about them, I will share them. When another acquaintance, of unknown religious persuasion expressed sorrow, I know then is not an appropriate time to share what I have found to be valuable This would be doubly so if a part of that expression conveyed the idea of eternal suffering for those who do not accept.
Thanks for sharing Willis, and happy Easter to all.
Enjoyed your piece, at least most of it (a short attention span caused me to bail early). I was utterly shocked by your response to Janice. The resulting discussion held my focus. It is heart warming to see so many open-minded folks willing to grant her the possibility of being well-intentioned.
Philip Mulholland says (April 20, 2014 at 4:28 am): “To date a search for Janice on this thread records 115 hits while a search for Billy results in 79 hits.
I am not sure that the focus of this thread is now on the correct person.”
So the thread has wandered. Big deal. Most do. In the process it has become a study in human nature above and beyond Willis’s initial (and very moving) article. Great thread!
I am with Willis on this. Religion is a “hot button” topic, no matter what your views are. In fact, I am quite certain there are approximately 7 billion differing views on the existence or non-existance of god. I had a bit of an epiphany when I realized the belief in a god and the non-belief in a god are both “faith based”. There is really no proof god does or does not exist. Both are a matter of faith, if one is honest with oneself.
In our house, we have had a devastating year of loss and illness. My wife lost both her parents (a month apart), and 2 days after we buried her father, she was diagnosed with cancer. Money was short as we had to cover both funerals and loss of income due to my wife’s illness. It has been a difficult struggle. We have persevered and now we are looking forward to living our lives to the fullest, as my wife has been declared cancer-free, and this is what her parents would have wanted for us. To be happy.
It cannot be sunny everyday, and we live our lives honestly and compassionately. I am not certain there is an afterlife, but we adhere to the credo that “virtue is it’s own reward”. No matter what happens on the other side (afterlife or finality), I am prepared for either contingency.
Whether god judges our actions or not at the end, be certain that history will.
Pamela Gray says:
April 20, 2014 at 8:43 am
My thanks to you, Pamela. I’m glad that there are people out there like you, who despite our differences enjoy and respect each other’s work and words.
Robert in Calgary says:
April 20, 2014 at 8:07 am
I’m overjoyed that some people understand what I’m trying to say. Look, folks. I understand that I live in a nominally Christian country. And for many folks here, people giving them Christian sermons and Christian messages is so common as to pass totally unremarked.
Heck, when I was a kid they jammed God into the middle of the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag, and it went mostly unremarked … well, unremarked by most folks. I was in high school then, and from that day I refused to say the Pledge of Allegiance. I was the Student Body President one year, and I had to lead the Pledge when we had school-wide meetings in the gym. I’d say the first words, “I pledge allegiance …” and then stop and let the others finish. All the kids knew I refused to say it, and why. And a few of them understood why I did it, and supported my action. In a nation supposedly based on freedom of religion, what were they doing sticking a Christian god into a pledge that every child had to say, whether they were Christian, Muslim or atheist?
For those of use here in the US who do NOT share the Christian faith, I fear that many, perhaps most people don’t really get the fact that we are not Christians as the result of a long-pondered, conscious, and well-considered choice.
Oh, yeah, they give lip service to personal choice, but in their hearts they see us as “heathens”, and they think it is their mission to convert us. Many people seem think that the problem is, we just haven’t heard the Word Of The Lord™, or if we have, we haven’t heard it in the right way, or from the right person … and they are more than happy to supply that perceived lack in our lives.
I can’t tell you how irritating that is on an average day. Look, all you good Christians out there, here’s the thing you don’t seem to be getting.
I DON’T WANT TO BE “SAVED”. BILLY DIDN’T WANT TO BE “SAVED”. AND LOTS OF FOLKS FIND YOUR ATTEMPTS TO “SAVE” THEM TO BE PUSHY, INTRUSIVE, AND UNWANTED!!
As a result, I’m sorry, but no, your endless attempts to save my sorry okole are not perceived as coming from someone concerned about my well-being. They are seen as an endless attempt to justify the shakiness of your own beliefs by trying to obtain agreement out in the world. They are seen as an endless, thoughtless intrusion into my own private inner world and my own private beliefs. And I’m sorry, but when that’s how you act, I don’t care in the slightest that you have my best interests at heart. It’s still pushy and unpleasant.
I have heard every single one of your arguments for your purported Salvation, and I find them entirely unconvincing. I’ve had literally hundreds of people tell me about their invisible friend, and how he listens to their every request, and how he’s willing to suspend the laws of Physics if they ask him nicely, and how good that makes them feel … sorry, folks. Not buying it. Maybe you can believe in an invisible friend who suspends the laws of Physics if it helps you to sleep. My credulity is not that elastic.
Not only am I not buying it. I’m sick of being approached by the manifold self-appointed Salesmen Of The Lord, with their endless importunings that I join them in their strange beliefs about invisible friends and suspending the laws of physics, and that I take up their ugly and un-Christian habit of praying in public. Yeah, I know y’all believe your invisible friend is real, and that’s not even the strangest of your beliefs. Here’s an odd fact … almost half the Christians in the US believe that humanity is less than 10,000 years old. How dumb is that?
And you want me to join them? You want me to sign on to a religion where half the adherents forsake science and deny obvious evidence to believe that humanity is only 10,000 years old? Really?
If there were a “no-phone” list for people pushing that farrago, I’d love to be on it just so people would stop bothering me about their invisible friend.
I quit Christianity when I was about 15. I’d been reading a lot about various religions. One day, a tent revival preacher came to town. He had a big name, the adults all flocked to hear him speak. The tent was packed to the brim, with more people outside.
I was always interested, so I went to hear him speak. When he finished and the hellfire and brimstone had died down, I wanted to ask him a question. So I went up, introduced myself, and asked about evolution. I said that the scientists said there was a lot of evidence for evolution, so why didn’t he believe the evidence?
I can see his face to this day. it got all red, he wasn’t used to being questioned. He said “Son” … I don’t know what it is about Christians, but far too many of them get all paternalistic when faced by disbelief, like I were an errant child. “Son, don’t you believe their evidence. They’ve only found one single bone whose origin that can’t explain.”
“But what about all the skeletons in the museums?”, I asked.
“Son, I’m tellin’ ya, there’s only one bone they can’t explain. The rest is all wax and imagination!”
Wax and imagination … I was stunned. I turned and walked away, amazed by the stupidity of the hundreds of adults that were lapping up his swill. I quit Christianity right on the spot. I figured if one of the respected leaders of the religion was that stupidly, obviously wrong, and not one adult protested, then it wasn’t for me. I’m a guy who likes evidence, and laughs at explanations like the one he gave me. And I’ve never seen any reason to change that childhood judgement.
Well, of course, that was a signal for all of the good-hearted folk in the neighborhood to try to save my soul … “You seen the Light yet, Son?” they’d ask me. For a Salesman Of The Lord, there is no higher prize than the fallen believer, so I got it all the time, both barrels. By the time I was out of high school, I’d had the best and the brightest try to save my poor pathetic soul, along with a number of other less bright folks. And that barrage, although much abated, has continued right up to the present.
Now, on a normal day, it’s not bad. Sure, I get Xtian messages all day long, the US is saturated with them, no surprise there. But that’s just how it is. And there’s frequently a representative of some flavor of Jehovah’s Witless coming to my door with their message of good cheer and their noble intentions. That’s just part of life here in Nowherica, and I just deal with it.
But I figured (obviously wrongly) that at least the Salesmen Of The Lord would have the decency to hold their tongues at a eulogy that never mentioned God, nor Jesus, nor Christianity in any form. I figured (foolishly) that the Christian folks would be polite enough to stop proselytizing for a few minutes, and not to try to push their particular, personal, private beliefs at a eulogy for someone not of their faith.
But noooo … I figured wrong. I guess there is no place so sacred that some pushy Christian won’t barge in with a sermon and a claim that they only have my best welfare at heart, as if their motives made the slightest difference to their unpleasantness.
I was so surprised by that gross intrusion, so shocked that Janice would deliver a Christian sermon and try to convert me at the eulogy for an atheist, so incensed that she would try to push her beliefs on me in my time of sorrow for my dear friend, that in my grief and anger I lashed out at her.
That was wrong of me … but dear friends, unconsciously I had expected at least common courtesy and decency from the Christians in the crowd. And to their credit, I got that from many, perhaps most of them.
But when one of them decided to give a sermon, few of them found it unusual in the slightest. Most of them still don’t understand my reaction. I’ve tried to explain that I’m sure Janice would never dream of being so impolite and pushy and intrusive as to give a Christian sermon and try to gain Christian converts at say a Jewish ceremony for the dead … but people still don’t seem to get that it is just as impolite and intrusive to do it at a ceremony for an atheist.
Ah, well, live and learn. Let me give you my basic message once again.
There are a lot of people in the world who have absolutely no desire to be “saved” by Christians, no matter how well-meaning they might be. We view such attempts as insulting, impolite, and intrusive. We are not the raw material for you to ply your wiles on. Like Zoroastrians or Sufis or Hindus, we believe something BY CHOICE that is different from what you believe.
So my plea is, stop trying to save non-Christians and non-theists. And if you can’t do that, then at least notice that it is extremely offensive to try to convert people when they are emotionally vulnerable. If you can’t shut up about your freakin’ invisible friend, which seems to be the case for far too many Christians, at least have the decency to zip it when non-Christian people are grieving. That is NOT the time for a Christian sermon and an attempt to convert the “heathen”, no matter how well-meant it might be.
w.
safeprayer says:
April 20, 2014 at 9:14 am
Dang, bro’, people have been debating that question for centuries. How would I know? A google search for “What is love?” brings up 4,000,000 web pages … take your pick.
So let me ask you a question in return. If love isn’t real, what is it?
w.
If love is real, what is it?
Well, as Oliver Wendell Holmes remarked when asked much the same question regarding pornography:
“I can’t define it. But I know it when I see it.”
Ursa Felidae says:
April 20, 2014 at 9:20 am
I’d say she seems like an honest and sincere person, but I’m not sure what you mean by “nice”. On my planet, nice people don’t try to convert folks of other religions (or no religion) to Christianity at the time when they are mourning their dead. That is an impolite and unwanted intrusion on private grief in every culture that I am aware of … that’s not nice at all.
I’m not an atheist myself, so I can’t help you with that.
w.
John Whitman says:
April 20, 2014 at 9:26 am
Absolutely not, John. You’ve missed the point entirely. What she did was to give a Christian sermon at a eulogy for an atheist, and try to convert me to her faith. I did nothing of the sort.
For our actions to be equivalent, I’d have to have gone to the place where she had written a lovely and moving Christian eulogy for someone, and appropriated her Christian eulogy and the emotions that it engendered as a vehicle for me to preach about e.g. the Koran and to try to convert the listeners to Islam … and I doubt greatly that you would “not see an issue” with that.
So why does she get a free pass from you for doing that very thing? Makes no sense.
w.
However, her motives seem immaterial to me.
You said that earlier, Willis. I can’t agree that motive is immaterial. It certainly makes a monumental difference in law, both criminal and civil: it is the difference between negligent homicide (or even accidental death) and first degree murder. Motive is certainly not the only thing; the consequences are the same, regardless of motive. But I don’t see how one can dismiss motive, either.
Willis, perhaps you should read again what Janice wrote – it bears no resemblance to what you are antipreaching on about, at great length and pseudointellectually. You are deliberately creatively misrepresenting the comment, the facts and the context of this forum. Shame on you. Go on apologise to Janice.
What you are doing is disgraceful
safeprayer says:
April 20, 2014 at 9:30 am
Since I’m not an atheist, I fail to see what this has to do with me. As I clearly stated above,
Once again, you’re not paying attention, and as a result you’ve written an entire comment based on a fundamental misconception … but then that’s been the case with your comments from the start.
More to the point, your claim that if someone finds love and friendship valuable they are automatically denying atheism is as dumb as a box of hammers. People around the planet of every known religion and of no religion at all value love and friendship, it’s not some part of the “judaeo-christian world view” that is somehow a denial of atheism, thats total nonsense.
If you celebrate when your friends die, then I fear that your world and mine are too far apart to have a meaningful discussion.
And if you celebrate when your friends die, then I’m overjoyed that I’m not your friend, and I want none of the belief structure that upholds such a curious view of a friend’s death …
w.
I am now contemplating a more practical solution to all this. Something that combines the virtues of motive and desired effect.
Maybe if I knocked all of y’all heads together?
evanmjones says:
April 20, 2014 at 12:22 pm
====
Janice has left the room a long time ago…
and is going on about her own business
neillusion says:
April 20, 2014 at 12:07 pm
Thanks, Illusion. I’ve read her comment more than once and more than thrice. What Janice delivered was a prototypical Christian sermon, undistinguishable in both form and content from hundreds that you and I have heard in Christian churches in the past. Which is likely why she chose that form and content, because she is so familiar with it that she likely doesn’t even notice that she is doing it. As I said above:
If you disagree with that, you’ll have to specify what you disagree with. For example, do you think that giving such a Christian sermon at a Moslem eulogy and quoting from the Bible and trying to convert the listeners to Christianity would be appropriate behavior for such an occasion?
And if not … then why do you think it is appropriate here?
I have apologized to her. Three times, maybe four. Try to follow the story, my friend, you look real foolish with inane comments like that.
If she is dissatisfied with my apology, I’ll discuss it with her. If you’re unhappy with my apology, so what? I don’t recall her appointing you as her agent, you have no right to demand things in her behalf … and in any case, I prefer to talk with the organ grinder, not the monkey.
As I’ve said many times, such claims are nothing but handwaving. You’ll have to be more specific if you want an answer, that’s just vague mud-slinging. You need to identify what it is you are disagreeing with if you want a response … or perhaps you don’t want a response, it’s just an gratuitous insult.
w.
evanmjones says:
April 20, 2014 at 12:00 pm
Thanks, Evan, you always bring up interesting points. That is true in some but not all aspects of law, and (as you imply) in life situations … but only in some but not all life situations.
Suppose I punched you in the nose and broke it.
Would my motive make any difference to how how your face felt? Would it change the now-distorted shape of your nose? Would knowing my motives reduce your medical bills?
Suppose I told you that I did it to save your life, because in my belief system if your nose is not flattened you would die prematurely … would your nose suddenly feel better? Would that make the pain go away?
Yes, you are right that motive is an issue in a number of circumstances … but if I were to give a Christian sermon at a Jewish funeral and try to convert the mourners to Jesus, would my motives change whether that is inappropriate and intrusive? Would knowing that my motives were pure make the mourners feel better about my crass behavior?
What the motive doesn’t change, and can’t change, is the pain and the damage that you cause with your actions. If I smash your nose, your pain and the damage to your nose isn’t altered in the slightest by my motives.
And that’s what I meant when I said that her motives are immaterial. I meant that her actions were crass, impolite, insulting, and inappropriate, and that doesn’t go away just because she was just trying to help.
Think about the Australian rabbits, Evan. The people that released them had only the finest of motives, they were just trying to help … do you think that made the slightest difference for the creatures that starved to death after the furry little bunnies had eaten everything green in a thousand miles? Do you think that the impeccable motives of the folks that released the rabbits salved the hearts of the farmers who were driven out of business by the rabbits voracious behavior?
My point is simple. There are times when the fact that the doer of some misdeed had good motives is totally immaterial. To me, this is one of them. The fact that you are a well-meaning crass intrusive interloper doesn’t make you less of a crass intrusive interloper.
w.
PS—Even in the law, at the end of the day motive does not automatically free you from culpability. If you steal someone’s wallet, the fact that you were hungry may temper your punishment … or more likely, it may make absolutely no difference at all. Even the law recognizes that at times, as I said above, motive is irrelevant.
And more to the point, your motive for stealing a wallet never relieves you of all responsibility—you’ll still be found guilty of theft, no matter how wonderful your motive might be.