Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Inspired by an interesting guest post entitled “An energy model for the future, from the 12th century” over at Judith Curry’s excellent blog, I want to talk a bit about energy storage.
The author of the guest post is partially right. His thesis is that solving the problem of how to store city-sized amounts of electricity would make a very big difference, particularly for intermittent sources like wind and solar. And he’s right, it would. But he’s wrong not to point out how devilishly difficult that goal has been to achieve in the real world.
Storage of electricity is a very strange corner of scientific endeavors. Almost everything in a 2013 car is very different from what was in a 1913 car … except for the battery. Automobile batteries are still lead-acid, and the designs only differ slightly from those of a hundred years ago.
Figure 1. Elements of a lead-acid car battery. SOURCE
Now, we do have nicads and such, but the automobile storage battery is the bellwether for the inexpensive storage of electricity. Cars need a surprisingly large amount of energy to start, particularly if they are balky. If there were a cheaper way to store that big charge, it would be on every car on the planet. Given that huge market, and the obvious profits therein, people have been busting their heads against the problem since before Thomas Edison made his famous statement about automobile batteries.
And despite that century-long huge application of human ingenuity, in 2013 the lead-acid battery still rules. It’s an anomaly, like fusion energy, a puzzle that has proven incredibly hard to solve. Potential solutions have all fallen by the wayside, due to cost, or capacity, or energy density, or dangerous components, or long-term stability, or clogging, or rarity of materials, or a habit of exploding or melting down, or manufacturing difficulties, the number of pitfalls is legion.
So I’ll get excited when we have something other than lead-acid batteries in our cars. Because that will be evidence that we’ve taken the first step … but even that won’t be enough. The other problem is the huge amount of energy we’re talking about. Here’s some back-of-the-envelope figures.
New York City’s electricity consumption averaged over a 24/7/365 basis is on the order of 5 gigawatts (5E+09 watts) continuous. Let’s take a city a tenth of that size, there’s plenty of them on the planet, China alone has dozens and dozens of cities that big, and lets consider how much storage we’d need to provide three days of stored electrical energy for that city. The numbers look like this
5.0E+08 watts continuous times 72 hours equals 3.6E+10 watt-hours of storage times 3.6E+03 seconds/hour gives 1.3E+14 joules of storage needed
So that means we’d need to store 130 terajoules (130E+12 joules) of energy … the only problem is, very few people have an intuitive grasp of how much energy 130 terajoules is, and I’m definitely not one of them.
So let me use a different unit of energy, one that conveys more to me. That unit is “Hiroshima-sized atom bombs”. The first atomic bomb ever used in a war, the Hiroshima bomb released the unheard of, awesome energy of 60 terajoules, enough to flatten a city.
And we’re looking to store about twice that much energy …
I’m sure that you can see the problems with scalability and safety and energy density and resource availability and security for that huge amount of energy.
So while I do like the guest author’s story, and he’s right about the city-sized storage being key … it’s a wicked problem.
Finally, as usual, Judith has put up an interesting post on her interesting blog. I don’t subscribe to a lot of blogs, but hers is near the top of the list. My thanks for her contribution to the ongoing discussion.
w.
PS—Edison’t famous statement about automobile batteries? He was offered big money in those days, something like ten grand from memory, to design and build a better battery for electric automobiles than the lead-acid battery. He took the money and went back to his laboratory. Month after month, there was no news from him. So the businessmen who’d put up the money went to see him. He said he didn’t have the battery, and in fact he didn’t even have the battery design.
Naturally, they accused him of having taken their money and done nothing. No, he assured them, that wasn’t right at all.
He said there had actually been significant progress, because he now knew of more than fifty ways NOT to make a battery for an electric automobile …
Curiously, Edison ended up inventing a nickel-iron-peroxide battery, which was a commercial failure … so even he couldn’t get past lead-acid.
Similarly, we now know hundreds and hundreds of ways not to make a battery for a city. So I suppose that’s progress in Edison’s terms, but after a century the wait’s getting long. I suspect we’ll solve the puzzle eventually, perhaps with something like a vanadium flow battery or whatever, but dang … it’s a slow one.
Discover more from Watts Up With That?
Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.
Ah the “Hiroshima”…
I remember in my dim and distant youth working in a small Urethane factory. One of my cow-orkers was a little short on sandwiches when it came to provisioning the picnic. One night, on a slack shift, his car was playing up and had expired as he pulled into the car-park. In his lunch break he embarked on the usual round of cursing, tyre-kicking, and banging with spanners that goes by the name of “user maintenance”. In the course of this pagan ritual his repeated attempts to start the vehicle had drained his battery. At this point he had a flash of lateral thinking of which de Bono would have been proud. We used electric fork lift trucks, little panzer tanks of mass destruction powered by tons of lead/Acid cells in serial-parallel configuration. There was a forklift; there, once the maintenance cover was removed, were positive and negative points from the traction battery to the traction motor, there in his hand were jump leads marked positive and negative. As I strolled by this piece of logical deduction was reaching its denouement. My enquiry as to his thought process reached the “what the f–” part of the general interrogatory standard, when he got his jump leads close enough to his car battery terminals for the whole thing to arc across. They let him out of hospital after a week, having treated his burns, and it didn’t take that long to clean the melted jump lead insulator, and the acid from the car battery off the floor. The forklift was fine, thanks for asking…… Sudden release of stored electrical energy, not the best plan in the world.
And there are other concerns.
My father was in the Signals Branch of the Royal Air Force. In practical terms this usually meant he was assigned to the military side of GCHQ outstations. One of these was located in Cyprus under the innocuous heading 33 Signals Unit which shared premises in Ayios Nikalaos with the equally innocent sounding 9 Signals Regiment RCS. There was a fatal explosion and fire in the emergency battery room, which resulted in a court of enquiry of which my father was part. The unfortunate victim was a new army arrival. The thing was apparently inexplicable until the dots were joined. The voltmeter on the charging panel was defective, one of the battery tops had been opened, there were the charred remains of a zippo lighter, and the new guy had been sent to see how the batteries were charging. Near as they could figure, he’d had no joy with the voltmeter; had removed a battery cap to see if bubbles were rising and had decided it was too dark to check properly without an additional light source…. Nasty stuff Hydrogen, doesn’t react well to being treated with disrespect.
Want a city wide battery back up resource, better make sure it’s idiot proofed to the nines….
As to the general point, energy densities are way to low for a practical and affordable system to be built using the currently available solutions. In addition to that there are issues regarding heat generation when drawing the required load from the cells, and also while storing if short charge times are required. Needs breakthroughs in both theory and engineering before we get to a viable solution.
“That’s definitely one reason I chose “Hiroshima bombs” as the unit of measure … because people (as you point out) don’t realize the safety implications of stuffing a huge amount of energy into a small box.” ~ Willis
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No truer words were ever spoken.
Despite what those with the Bambi Syndrone want to believe, Life is Lethal and Mother Nature has a very nasty temperament.
Pointman has a very good essay that points out what happens when a naive do-gooder meets reality The big green killing machine: They sit with God in paradise.
Willis,
I like Uconeer: http://uconeer-units-conversion-for-engineers.en.softonic.com/
Philip Peake says:
June 30, 2013 at 5:23 pm
“A long time ago, I visited a GPO telephone exchange (end of the mechanical relay age). Two things were unforgettable, one was the sound of all those relays/uniselectors clicking, and the other was the battery room. The batteries were open vats of sulphuric acid with enormous lead plates – they were probably 5′ cube. They provided enough power to keep the exchange running for a week in the event of power failure.”
I worked for the GPO / BT for 20+ years, and remember them well. However the huge cells you refer to were only intended to keep the exchange running for a few hours. All such exchanges had auto-start diesel generators which would takeover in the event of mains failure. On the rare occasion that one of these failed, a mobile unit had to be dispatched, and hooked up. I have vivid memories of a mobile ALSO failing to start, and the subsequent panic as the DC bus slowly fell to 45 volts (normally 52), and switches started dropping out… Smaller rural exchanges without gensets had a minimum 24 hrs reserve to allow a van towable battery trailer to be taken out.
In either case there were two separate strings of 2 volt cells, which were regularly rotated between service and standby. It was normal to get 20+ years life from them. Large transformer / rectifiers with motor driven tap changers provided the DC supply. These days all sites have generators, and the old wet cells are gone, replaced by Gell / AGM batteries mounted in the equipment racks. The mechanical exchanges had a huge variation in electrical demand – with the morning 9 o’clock business start being the peak. Conversely at night it was minimal. Modern computer controlled exchanges have a pretty constant demand 24/7.
***
arthur4563 says:
June 30, 2013 at 5:13 am
I might add that nowadays Edison’s direct current is considered the best way to transmit electricity over long distances, not Tesla’s AC current.
***
There’s some advantages to that, but you still have to put AC in the loop to transform the voltages, like Stephen Ramsey points out above. Which means huge rectifiers, inverters, etc,
Simpler from an engineering viewpoint is just to up voltages on lengthy lines to several million volts (the highest voltages in the US is 765KV lines) — well within current, proven technologies. The only thing stopping that is fearmongering from eco-loons about evil high-voltage lines & sinister “magnetic” effects.
@Willis: Re: battery energy
It was just a fun suggestion. I was thinking that there is probably already a considerable stored energy in batteries right in NYC, possibly a reasonable fraction of a nuke. And i was curious to see if you could do this sort of estimate. It’s far more challenging than your original. I’m not worried about any damage from simultaneously detonating batteries, unless it’s sitting in my lap. I generally agree that one big battery to buffer NYC will be inherently unsafe.
Willis Eschenbach says on June 30, 2013 at 1:38 am, as part of his mostly-good criticism of hydrogen:
“Finally, hydrogen is one of the most dangerous of fuels, because it burns at such a wide mixing ratio of fuel to air …”
Acetylene has a flammable mixing range even wider in both directions, and detonates more easily. It is said to be able to be detonated even anaerobically at pressure much over 2 atmospheres. But, acetylene sees use. (Although not as a fuel for cars …) And it does not appear to me to be killing many people.
Donald L. Klipstein says:
July 1, 2013 at 2:47 pm
Thanks, Donald. As a long-time and reasonably good (albeit self-taught) gas welder, I’m very familiar with acetylene’s nasty habits, I’ve moved the molecules as well as the electrons in that arena as well … and you’re right, it’s not sold compressed in tanks, but dissolved in (from memory) liquid acetone. And you are right, I just looked it up and acetylene has slightly wider flammability limits in air than hydrogen (2.5%-82% for acetylene, vs. 5%-75% for hydrogen).
So both are very dangerous. Compare this with gasoline, which will only burn when it is between 1.4% and 7.6% of the air-fuel mixture by volume, or propane, which only burns when it is between 2%-10% of the mixture.
Which is why I said hydrogen is “one of the most dangerous” …
w.
A. Scott said “From EIA.gov
In 2011, the average annual electricity consumption for a U.S. residential utility customer was 11,280 kWh, an average of 940 kilowatthours (kWh) per month. Louisiana had the highest annual consumption at 16,176 kWh and Maine the lowest at 6,252 kWh.”
In the UK according to one utilities website the average domestic user accounts for 3,300 KWh per annum.
J Martin says:
July 1, 2013 at 4:15 pm
Thanks, J, quite interesting. I find the following for electricity prices by supplier in London.
I pay about 12.5¢ per kWh, but I’m paying for lots of unattainable green dreams of solar and unicorns and rainbows and wind to achieve Governor Moonbeam’s goal of 30% renewables by 2020 … riiiight … the craziest part is that here in California, hydropower is not considered to be a renewable resource!
Cretins …
w.
“people (as you point out) don’t realize the safety implications of stuffing a huge amount of energy into a small box.” I talked to the developer of an electric car. Was it possible to charge at MW rates? He laughed – “Don’t be stupid!” So I told him I charge my automobile at ~20MW – he said it couldn’t be done. Then I took him through the simple arithmetic – half a kilo a second of gasoline at 43MJ/kg is 21.5MW. Most gas pumps will do better than half a kilo a second. He has since given up on his car.
You need to store energy? Fossil fuels do a Great Job!
Absolutely! We already have the best energy storage, and the earth provides an excellent storage medium. Between gasoline, diesel and natural gas, no water tank or compressed air or battery will come even remotely close.
We should spend our energies on productive new technologies.
For those who are interested in LENR, alias Cold Fusion, it is becoming industrial at fast pace… in few years if not few quarters… Rossi isn only one of the actors in the race.
I’ve written an executive summary, fed by my tech-watch on LENR forum:
http://www.lenrnews.eu/lenr-summary-for-policy-makers/
a huge blackswan, yet ignored as any paradigm change is.
As usual peer-review, majority opinion, is a way to slow real science, to ignore evidence.
MIT as Eugene Mallove have denounced have they “Hide the Incline” story… their tricks for peer-review is not even hidden. It is official.
To have an educated opinion, please read the data…
AGW is no more a problem, whatever is you position. CO2 is dead for energy. Renewable , coal, oil, nuke, are dead.
— AlainCo the techwatcher of lenr-forum.
I’ve seen multiple references to a molten sodium sulfur battery for grid use. I’ve also heard of proposals to use just molten salt as a heated buffer to either nuclear or solar thermal, that way it can build-up a reserve to overcome spikes in supply or demand. As for traditional batteries, supposedly, a hospital near the proposed bridge to nowhere uses a barge mounted battery that is charged periodically by a nearby city.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/pge-energy-commission-unveil-battery-energy-storage-in-san-jose-208679391.html
Thanks, Ian. I note that in the link you provide they say:
Jerkwagons, spending my taxpayer money subsidizing not only power sources, but now batteries.
In any case, we’ll see if it flies. My guess is that we just blew $3.3 million …
w.
AlainCo (@alain_co) says:
July 6, 2013 at 8:45 am
I read through your post, and the linked article about the “science”, and I didn’t see one actual report of an actual, testable, repeatable generation of energy.
Get back to me when you have a report of something that gives actual, repeatable, testable generation by LENR. It’s all very fascinating, but I don’t see one example of such a reaction actually doing any work.
And until then … well, I fear that I would classify you as an SIF, a “single issue fanatic”. You can identify them because they want to post about their single issue in every remotely related thread.
For example, this thread is about large-scale storage of energy … which has absolutely zero to do with LENR, and yet here you are.
So, let me invite you to post your ideas and claims on a thread about LENR, or at least some relevant thread. LENR is not a way to store energy, what’s it doing on this thread?
All the best, and do remember, please don’t bother my threads again until you actually have real results to report. Not some guy’s claims about LENR, not some report of alleged lab results with no details, not claims protected by “business secrets”, but real, repeatable, testable, verifiable generation of energy that can actually do some work.
Because until then, Alain … I’m not interested in the slightest. Been there, looked at that, not impressed.
w.
@Willis Eschenbach
My motive was just to shortly give wider information, because as usual the information broadcasted on LENR is too narrow (mostly Rossi-centered, while Defkalion is better positioned, and many others may cause surprises). Those interested would just follow the links, get informed and stop parroting the consensual stupidities broadcasted in Wikipravda, SciAm, Nature…
The actual testable reliable generation evidences are given, at kW level by Defkalion, Rossi, and even by Brillouin, through 3rd party. With less usable result it is well replicated and understood by ENEA, CEA and a thousands of other papers, with a pile of peer reviewed papers, some review in NaturWissenschaften.
It is referenced (maybe through words, not links) in the articles.
Are you sure you read, or try to understand? or maybe you missed the more scientific article cited inside :
http://lenrnews.eu/evidences-that-lenr-is-real-beyond-any-reasonable-doubt
You may also requires impossible to respect constraints, like openbox test for commercial products, or fully reliable for PdD experiments where condition are not yet well identified… ignoring blackbox test results, or recent experiments (Like those of ENEA published at ICCF15) where most condition are identified and even actively modified (especially crystallography).
I don’t expect that any of those reference will be accepted, so I won’t try to defend them. I know it is like talking to a wall… any evidence will be rejected, any institution involved will be said fringe from NASA to BARC, Spawar, CEA,NRL, ENEA,Elforsk, EPRI, Amoco,Shell,CNAM … All researchers who were respected the day before they accept LENR will be classified as fringe if not corrupted. that is usual…
Most people will trust the experiments done by incompetent Caltech electro-chemist , and by Mann-inspired MIT fraudsters who did “hide the incline”, when they don’t fill the box of dissenters with texas horse manure, use the local nuclear reactor to ruin experiments, call for 3 successive unsuccessful fraud inquiry on the same scientists, who was before that, a respected professor whose book was in every student bag.
I’ve been respecting Science, and mainstream position for long, but having considered what happened on climate and LENR, I feel it is even more corrupted than politics and finance.
This is explained as I said inside by Kuhn.
So most of people should forget it, you will learn that in Wall Street journal. There is no hope for most people who follow the consensus and not the evidences.
As usual the usual nasty capitalist will take the risk, and break the Berlin Wall… Today, even in france, you can talk of LENR to industrialists, provided you close the door. The doors will only open when the products are on the shelves.
It is ironical that people on WUWT behave like that, but it is human nature, and people have a limited budget for free-thinking and accessing to evidences. I admit that I follow less that climate controversy since I know it is worthless.
BTW the SIF acronym remind me reported wiki-attorney language, used to justify silencing dissenters. so I don’t hope to convince, nor win the battle.
Just consider that rejected wiki-page to see how unscientific, are the LENR denialists.
http://pages.csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/cf/293wikipedia.html
I don’t hope to convince the conformist who follow the “settled science” and not the evidences.
Whatever people think, they should just avoid investing in anything related to energy, climate, big-science, transportation, heating.
By the way, really one should go to University Of missouri in 2 weeks, and to Austin at NIWeek in August.
Afterward WUWT could take vacation because the non-problem will be solved, at no cost. Only the warriors, and the fear-mongers, will suffer from the end of that absurd war.
AlainCo (@alain_co) says:
July 8, 2013 at 8:25 am
Sadly, Alain, that claim about your motives is the refrain of every single-issue-fanatic (SIF) in the world—”I’m just bombing your thread with extraneous information and links because I just want to educate people with the real truth about X”, whatever “X” may be in their case. Sometimes it’s Area 51, some times it’s 9/11 theories, or mercury and autism, or Bigfoot sightings, different SIFs have different things they are fanatical about, and for you it’s LENR. And you’re all just a bunch of innocents whose motive are misunderstood …
I don’t care about your motives, Alain. I don’t care about your single issue. I don’t care if you only want to give people links. What part of “please do it on some other poor bugger’s thread” is unclear to you?
Apparently, you do not understand that “actual testable reliable generation evidences” does not mean “the inventor showed a third party that it works” … no, I don’t care in the slightest what Defkalion or Rossi or even Brillouin say. The inventors will all say it works. It appears you are intrigued and impressed by that. Me, I’m apathetic and suspicious about that. If it works, how come nobody can do work with it? That’s what “works” usually means for these things, that it can do work. And to date, there’s no LENR units that have taken over from James Watt and are pumping out mines …
So please, Alain … there are likely ten good blogs out there that discuss LENR. Could you take your double-bagful of extremely helpful links and blindingly brilliant exposes to one of them, please? That’s what such blogs are for.
Because if you keep trying to stuff them down the throat of my thread, my next move will be to invite you to stuff them somewhere warmer, wetter, and much more uncomfortable when you sit down …
w.