Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Inspired by an interesting guest post entitled “An energy model for the future, from the 12th century” over at Judith Curry’s excellent blog, I want to talk a bit about energy storage.
The author of the guest post is partially right. His thesis is that solving the problem of how to store city-sized amounts of electricity would make a very big difference, particularly for intermittent sources like wind and solar. And he’s right, it would. But he’s wrong not to point out how devilishly difficult that goal has been to achieve in the real world.
Storage of electricity is a very strange corner of scientific endeavors. Almost everything in a 2013 car is very different from what was in a 1913 car … except for the battery. Automobile batteries are still lead-acid, and the designs only differ slightly from those of a hundred years ago.
Figure 1. Elements of a lead-acid car battery. SOURCE
Now, we do have nicads and such, but the automobile storage battery is the bellwether for the inexpensive storage of electricity. Cars need a surprisingly large amount of energy to start, particularly if they are balky. If there were a cheaper way to store that big charge, it would be on every car on the planet. Given that huge market, and the obvious profits therein, people have been busting their heads against the problem since before Thomas Edison made his famous statement about automobile batteries.
And despite that century-long huge application of human ingenuity, in 2013 the lead-acid battery still rules. It’s an anomaly, like fusion energy, a puzzle that has proven incredibly hard to solve. Potential solutions have all fallen by the wayside, due to cost, or capacity, or energy density, or dangerous components, or long-term stability, or clogging, or rarity of materials, or a habit of exploding or melting down, or manufacturing difficulties, the number of pitfalls is legion.
So I’ll get excited when we have something other than lead-acid batteries in our cars. Because that will be evidence that we’ve taken the first step … but even that won’t be enough. The other problem is the huge amount of energy we’re talking about. Here’s some back-of-the-envelope figures.
New York City’s electricity consumption averaged over a 24/7/365 basis is on the order of 5 gigawatts (5E+09 watts) continuous. Let’s take a city a tenth of that size, there’s plenty of them on the planet, China alone has dozens and dozens of cities that big, and lets consider how much storage we’d need to provide three days of stored electrical energy for that city. The numbers look like this
5.0E+08 watts continuous times 72 hours equals 3.6E+10 watt-hours of storage times 3.6E+03 seconds/hour gives 1.3E+14 joules of storage needed
So that means we’d need to store 130 terajoules (130E+12 joules) of energy … the only problem is, very few people have an intuitive grasp of how much energy 130 terajoules is, and I’m definitely not one of them.
So let me use a different unit of energy, one that conveys more to me. That unit is “Hiroshima-sized atom bombs”. The first atomic bomb ever used in a war, the Hiroshima bomb released the unheard of, awesome energy of 60 terajoules, enough to flatten a city.
And we’re looking to store about twice that much energy …
I’m sure that you can see the problems with scalability and safety and energy density and resource availability and security for that huge amount of energy.
So while I do like the guest author’s story, and he’s right about the city-sized storage being key … it’s a wicked problem.
Finally, as usual, Judith has put up an interesting post on her interesting blog. I don’t subscribe to a lot of blogs, but hers is near the top of the list. My thanks for her contribution to the ongoing discussion.
w.
PS—Edison’t famous statement about automobile batteries? He was offered big money in those days, something like ten grand from memory, to design and build a better battery for electric automobiles than the lead-acid battery. He took the money and went back to his laboratory. Month after month, there was no news from him. So the businessmen who’d put up the money went to see him. He said he didn’t have the battery, and in fact he didn’t even have the battery design.
Naturally, they accused him of having taken their money and done nothing. No, he assured them, that wasn’t right at all.
He said there had actually been significant progress, because he now knew of more than fifty ways NOT to make a battery for an electric automobile …
Curiously, Edison ended up inventing a nickel-iron-peroxide battery, which was a commercial failure … so even he couldn’t get past lead-acid.
Similarly, we now know hundreds and hundreds of ways not to make a battery for a city. So I suppose that’s progress in Edison’s terms, but after a century the wait’s getting long. I suspect we’ll solve the puzzle eventually, perhaps with something like a vanadium flow battery or whatever, but dang … it’s a slow one.
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@Steve Garcia
WRT hybrid vehicles and in particular the Toyota. The key is the gears and this page explains it very well – http://eahart.com/prius/psd/
For those who don’t already know it, David Mackay, a climate advisor to the UK’s extinct New Labor government, has written this free book about the storage problems and more. He is a warmist, an alarmist, but has his numbers right, and computes the amount of pumped hydro storage to supply the UK through a longer lull in wind power during a blocking weather pattern. His conclusion sounds a lot like “Canna do, Capt’n!”.
http://www.withouthotair.com/
arthur4563 says:
June 30, 2013 at 5:13 am
“The idea that Edison never invented anything is about as clueless a clam as I’ve ever seen, as is the claim that Tesla was some sort of super inventor. Tesla’s later work was mostly a fraudulent
attempt to garner Fed govt dollars for a series of nutty Tesla ideas about wireless power”
His nutty idea about wireless power transmission enabled him to build the first radio controlled boat.
Have you ever had ONE nutty idea as revolutionary as that?
Don K says:
June 30, 2013 at 3:39 am
“Willis. You might want to check on what I believe is probably the largest currently existing battery storage unit — 64mwh — Sodium-Sulfur battery at Marfa Texas. ”
One peculiarity of those is that they need to be kept at an operating temperature of 250 deg C or so at all times to keep the electrolyte liquid.
Anthony Watts says:
June 30, 2013 at 3:37 am
“MIT is working on something similar, a carbon nanotube based ultracapacitor, something Edison could never have envisioned.”
As a general rule, a battery has 1/10 of the energy density per weight as gasoline, and an ultracap again 1/10 of that of a battery. We’ve been hearing about these newer better ultracaps for a while but I’ve yet to see statements about their energy density. The problem is, how many atoms do you need to store one electron. Existing ultracaps need quite a lot.
The biggest maker of ultracaps is to my knowledge Maxwell; their stock shows the usual obsessive-compulsive disorder:
Maxwell 5 year chart at Yahoo finance
Recent tests on Rossi’s Ecat showed a COP of 6, with the likelihood of far more once it is properly engineered. In a few years that will be no storage problem.
Me think a giant swiss cococlock would drive a powerplant instead of a coco would solve it…pull it up…and slowly down it goes.
In Slough UK there is a 350KW pilot plant already operating using excess electricity to compress and cool air to a liquid, which is then used to drive turbines during hours of peak electricity consumption.
In Germany they should be starting this year on a compressed air solution to provide 360MW, for which €40 million has been earmarked.
http://www.rwe.com/web/cms/en/364260/rwe-power-ag/innovations/adele/
If compressed air in one form or another looks to be the cheapest solution, then that is the solution likely to be adopted first. The battery hopefuls will be late to the party.
Perhaps time to take another look at Tesla’s idea of storing high frequency current in an earth battery that can be drawn on by tapping into the earth’s surface.? Incidently does the earth already store such energy in huge quantities to keep its molten interior in a fluid state? Also nature in one electrical storm generates huge energy discharged in the form of lightning bolts – Now until we can understand the energy in nature, can we get on with developing small molten salt/thorium reaction units, and keep burning our other sources of convenient energy in the mean time..
It seems unlikely that the CO2 released will do anything other than make life easier for mankind while the other sources of energy and delivery are developed. Time for the great leap forward and some lateral thinking in energy proofing the world, before the next asteriod strike wipes us out!! .
J Martin says:
June 30, 2013 at 6:19 am
“In Germany they should be starting this year on a compressed air solution to provide 360MW, for which €40 million has been earmarked.
http://www.rwe.com/web/cms/en/364260/rwe-power-ag/innovations/adele/
If compressed air in one form or another looks to be the cheapest solution, then that is the solution likely to be adopted first. The battery hopefuls will be late to the party.”
Well they’ve been working on that for quite a while, trying to re-use an abandoned mine. As they write, losses are enormous at 70% efficiency. I think pumped hydro is upward of 85%. Of course they sugarcoat it, and of course, being Germany, it’s subsidized to the hilt. There is a risk of earthquakes due to the frequent pressure changes in that old mine.
For details of a working pumped-storage hydroelectric scheme see The Dinorwig Power Station, North Wales
Storing energy is TRIVIAL. We have hundreds (or even thousands) of years of stored energy already. We call it natural gas, oil, and coal. The power-to-weight-ratio is at least an order of magnitude higher than any battery, the cost is only in the converter, and the storage is already supplied!
Thanks for all the discussion. But talking about these alternatives reminds me of looking for my glasses while they’re on my head. Oil and coal are wonderful chemical energy storage. Then there are compact physical “batteries” like the atom. And we don’t have to pump roughly equivalent amounts of power into them. It’s already there.
Is there an alternative that is immune from environmentalism criticism anyway? Who’s going to stand for more oxygen going into the air when it’s corrosive and will affect the balance of nature in a very theoretically scientific trappings sort of way? Or more manmade lakes destroying habitat – and with all those dams to fail? Or more mining? Carbon and the atom seem so much more – well, natural – with environmental concerns manageable with evolving technology. And we’re not running out. There is no need for urgency born of extrinsic societal projection.
Don K has already mentioned the blog _Do the Math_ — it also has a set of calculations for pumped storage here:
http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/?s=pumped+storage&submit=Search
Having followed wind and having been involved on wind power and energy papers it seems to me that the fellow has the right of it. It’s not impossible — but the structures would dominate so much of the landscape as to change the face of North America.
At this point batteries and pumped storage are effective at small scale only and it is unlikely to change for decades — at best.
Another great thread Willis!
One thing I didn’t see above, (blame it on old age if someone posted it and I missed it); is need for power long after the ‘eureka’ moment.
That is, it is one thing to ‘claim’ energy storage providing area-wide energy backup coverage for one or two days; it is entirely different to claim said energy storage is good for ‘son of Sandy’, ‘daughter of Katrina’ or ‘San Francisco’s next 1906 scale quake’. One or two days is simply not enough, even for minor episodes of doldrums or cloudy periods affecting ‘natural’ energy supply.
And no!; I do not believe in the slightest that energy generation from wind, tide, solar, hamster wheels, whatever is ‘natural’, even using the most extreme Khmer Vert view of the world. (See, I remembered that excellent suggestion from a previous energy disrupting rare bird thread).
Instead of “Hiroshimas”, what about using a storage requirement metric of “Car Batteries per Household”? Most people could relate to that. And such local storage would eliminate the Hiroshima effect of storing 120 gigajoules at one large, government-run, government-protected, terrorist-and-Riverkeeper/RobertFingKennedyJr-attraction site. I’m sorry, but I can’t be bothered to run the math but my guess is that the number of CBs needed to power a typical NYC apartment for 3 days would run into the dozens. At $75 per battery, the installation would necessarily cost $3-5,000 (guess) and represent a fire and acid hazard. Anyone less lazy than me know what the storage capacity of a car battery is, in Joules?
OK, before I clicked POST i got to feeling lazy and looked it up. About 2 million joules in a fully charged CB. So, 160 terajoules divided by 2MM = 65MM batteries? And if we say there are 3MM households in New York (ignoring commercial use for a moment), that implies 20-25 car batteries per HH? Plus an allowance for spare capacity, battery degradation, etc. Call it 40-50 batteries/HH? (Please feel free to check my math)
Peter Carroll: Your estimate is correct, but there is a more straightforward way to it.
Let’s say, a typical household consumes 1kW on average (much more if heating or cooling is needed, but 1kW is a unit most of us understand intuitively — unlike megajoules). An average-sized (American) car battery has the capacity of 60Ah. At nominal 12V, that gives you (neglecting conversion losses) 0.72kWh. So, to run your 1kW home continuously (and neglecting conversion losses), you need 33 such batteries. During peak heat in the summer, or in the dead of winter, you will need hundreds of car batteries to survive 24 hours.
Europeans will need a hundred of their toy-car batteries just to run their typical dwelling without any climate control.
Not ‘hoseholds’, ‘households……
[Typo fixed, also changed “2025 batteries per household” to “20-25 batteries” … -w.]
For some technical data on a pumped storage system which has been in operation since 1963 see the link below. This facility was coupled with a nearby nuclear power station to provide power during periods of peak demand.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ffestiniog_Power_Station
Willis:
The Strategic Bomber Command commissioned the design of a nuclear reactor small enough to fit in a bomber. To keep one of their SAC bombers aloft for a _____ (week?). THey got close….Thorium. We’ve talked about it before. I don’t think storage of power is the answer unless there is some quantum effect that can multiply the effects of the chem/physics reactions. The real problem is transference. How to transfer abundant electrical power to a moving vehicle. I don’t know why Thorium isn’t seen as the silver bullet which shoots big oil, big pollution (not the same as the AGW twaddle), Big green, out of the ………bank.(was going to say tree). I see a purely Thorium generated electrical world with energy transference techniques.
Well, a large enough superconductor will probably store that amount of energy. Although, I don’t want to be within 50 miles of it if it quenches….
Sean says:
June 30, 2013 at 12:19 am
From what I understand, the best and most cost effective way to store energy is hold water at a high elevation and discharge it to a lower elevation as is done with water behind damns….
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Beat me to it.
Unfortunately that is now ‘illegal’ in the USA not just in CA. SEE THE WILD AND SCENIC RIVERS ACT
If the EPA can consider a mud puddle in your driveway or a roadside ditch a regulated ‘wetland’ link they certainly would go after any energy storage system using water.
Thanks Willis, it is about time someone pulled this mythological rug from under the Green’s feet. When you mention intermittency, they always reply with ‘storage’, and you know that they have no idea what that entails.
The energy storage unit I like to use is ‘Dinorwigs’. Dinorwig is the UK’s largest pumped water system, and it provides 2 gigawatts for 5 hours. You would need an awful lot of Dinorwigs to power NY for 72 hours. And a lot of hills to put them in. And the Greens will not let you put them there anyway (envoronmentalism). And the cost of Dinorwig was astronomic, as the Greens insisted it went INSIDE the mountain.
.
But this is not the end of the problem. In the harsh 2010 winter, the UK was without wind (and Sun) for a whole month. Forget the storage capacity for powering NY for 72 hours, you need to multiply that by at least ten to cover renewable outages.
.
Have there been any new pumped hydro stations of any significant size built in the USA recently?
New battery technology will start small, not city size. Currently, a AA sized Lithium Ion battery has an energy density of 373.5 Watt-hours/Liter. Amprius has started production of small, consumer electronic sized Silicon Anode batteries with an energy density of 580-600 Wh/L depending on cell size, noticeably more than most all lithium-ion cells with a carbon anode.
Silicon absorbs so much Lithium that it swells and breaks which limits the number of recharge cycles to about 500. This problem will be mitigated when Amprius moves to Silicon nano-wire anodes. Think of nanometer sized “AstroTurf” which can absorb vast amounts of Lithium without breaking. This should allow the next generation of Amprius batteries to withstand thousands of recharge cycles. These nanowire anode batteries will have energy densities of 650 or 700 Wh/L
BTW, the energy density of a typical Lead-acid battery is 40 Wh/L Silicon nanowire anode batteries point the way forward for electric cars. Until then, (my opion) I wouldn’t bother.
Two posts have mentioned LENR, which is still controversial.
A current overview of the LENR evidence is at —
http://lenrweb.com/
Tyler van Houwelingen updated his summary of the current LENR efforts on 6/20/13.
Fusion is no longer invoked; objection about a Coulomb barrier is now obsolete. For a general comment on the theory, see —
http://www.cleantechblog.com/2012/09/is-the-weak-force-the-key-to-lenr.html