Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
I’ve written about my time in the US Army, and about spending time behind bars getting out of the Army, in my story called It’s Not About Me. In that story, I discussed a bit of my view on the Vietnam war, the view echoed by many who have studied it since—that it was the wrong war, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. My experience was that the Vietnam war damaged every single person it touched, on both sides of the Pacific, and more than anyone it damaged some of the veterans who’d actually done the fighting. I know that because I spent months in the nuthouse assisting the physically crippled and the memory damaged. My friends there were the shell-shocked refuse of the carnage. It’s not my wish to refight the war or what I did regarding the war, just to tell my story about it, so please, let’s not turn this into a referendum on some imaginary “right” response to the Vietnam War—there weren’t any of those, just levels of wrong responses, plus pain and suffering enough for all.
Christina Dorothea Dyer Greene, and looking at that lovely old granny, you’d never guess she’d once put a voodoo death curse on a middle-aged man … and he died within the week. Another story I should tell sometime.
A couple years after I got out of the nuthouse and the Army, I went to live with the Captain’s Daughter, my beloved grandmother we called “My-mummie” whom I’ve written about before. It was a great experience for me. It was after my grandfather’s death, and my oldest cousin was living there as well. She and I have always been close. We cooked dinner and washed and dried the dishes and kept up the grounds and did house maintenance and such for My-mummie. The best part was that I could hear her stories again (and some for the first time) as an adult and not as a seven-year-old kid. I lived with her about a year, it was fascinating, I’ll write more about her sometime.
After a while, though, I wanted my own place. I loved My-mummie, but eventually, I had to move out on my own. A friend of my cousin’s said she needed someone to caretake a tiny one-room cabin she owned near Santa Cruz, totally enclosed by a state forest. I said sure and moved out there. It was an enchanted place. It always reminded me of Snow White’s pad. It was quite close to Santa Cruz but totally hidden. You’d drive through the protected forest, and there was a little clearing with a little house in the sunlight, the famous “bee-loud glade”. I continued making and selling sandals.
This was also the first time I ever made money from my art. I mean as opposed to my music. I started making and selling mobiles. I made light fixtures that were mobiles, using glass, and candelabras, and railroad lanterns, and pieces of cut steel, and crystals, and found objects. They moved and spun, casting an ever-changing, entrancing light. They were beautiful, and they were easy to make and sell, people snapped them up as fast as I finished them, so I generally had a bit of money, not much, but enough.
Of course, the Vietnam War was still going on; it hadn’t stopped because I’d managed to get my invitation canceled. I met some people who were in a loose confederation called “The Resistance”. The Resistance was founded by David Harris, who was married to the singer Joan Baez at the time. Some of us Resistance guys rented a house just behind the Santa Cruz Boardwalk on Second Street. We called it the “Resistance Commune”. We were hippies, we were opposed to the Vietnam War. We believed in peace and love. Bored middle-aged housewives brought food to the house and gave money, so we’d be free to work to end the war. And we did work, we did what we could, and we worked hard at it.
It was a strange time. We believed in something vague called “The Revolution”. We weren’t sure what that was, but we knew we were at the forefront of it. It involved throwing out everything that our parents believed. That much was obvious from the terrible hole it left behind. Beyond that, we were making up the song as we were singing it.
It was also the time of “free love”. I later learned that (for me at least) love is rarely free, but we were young and didn’t know that yet. At the time I was sexually involved with three women. Not at the same instant or in the same bed, you understand, but at the same time. They all three lived in a commune called the “River Street House”. They all knew each other, they were good friends, they all knew about me, there were no secrets between us. None of us thought much about it, it went on for a couple months, it was great … well, it was actually fantastic until I came down with the clap, and I had to tell all three of them.
Gonorrhea. Ugly word, I know, and an ugly reality, but I have to be honest about the bad as well as the good. I’ve said I am telling my tale warts and all, and having the clap definitely qualifies as more than a wart in my world.
I got the usual symptom, a leaky faucet, went to the doctor, got tested, and I got the bad news. So I called the three lovely ladies all together and told them all at one time, so there was no misunderstanding and we could get it clear. I said that I had the clap and that I must have gotten it from one of them, because I hadn’t had sex with anyone else, and I was willing to swear to that.
Now, after I published my story about hopping freight trains, people wrote in the comments to say I should issue clear warnings in my stories, so fools don’t try to follow my path. They said I should do that to keep a bunch of maroons from cluttering up the rail yards with their corpses and body parts and drowning in the Kenai and the like trying to follow my lead. Seemed excessive to me, like the sign on my aluminum foil reflective car screen that keeps the sun off of the dashboard when I park, covering the front window entirely. The sign says, no bull, it says
“WARNING! Do not drive the car with this sunscreen in position”.
Really? We’ve fallen that far?
In any case, to keep folks from complaining about this story, here’s my Official Warning—kids, don’t try this one at home. Do whatever you have to do in order to avoid telling three women at the same time that one gave you gonorrhea and you might have given it to the other two. I assure you, Miss Manners classifies it as a major social blunder.
Plus it’s not an easy subject to bring up, regardless of how you lay the groundwork, and I’ll tell you, gonorrhea is a real bitch to just casually slip into a conversation without groundwork. Like “Oh, yeah, guess what, dearest ladies, funniest thing happened to me yesterday, I was passing by my doctor’s, and I thought I’d drop in, you’ll never believe what he told me …”
That wasn’t the hardest part, though. As uncomfortable and painful as it had been for me to tell the three of them that I’d gotten the clap from one of them and I might have passed it on, there was worse to come.
First, though, we all had to walk on eggshells around each other, no sex for anyone until they got their results back from the lab, from memory that took three-four days.
Now, for those men out there who have had the unfortunate luck to be falsely accused, and who have had to try to convince a furious woman of your actual innocence, that you have been true to her and only her, you have not been cheating on her, and that you are telling her the 100% facts of the case, I’m sure you all can testify how just how hard and painful that is …
Well, just be thankful that you have not had to try to convince three furious women, who have just gotten out of the car after driving back from the clinic together, three furious women who have been discussing your shortcomings and lack of honesty because all of their tests turned out negative. Consider trying to convince them that you have been true to them and only them, that you haven’t been unfaithful to the three of them in either thought or word or deed, and that you’re telling God’s own truth. I don’t recommend it for the weak of heart.
Of course, they didn’t believe a word of what I was saying; understandably, they had the medical proof. The three of them got in my face all at once, shouting, punching my shoulders … it was truly not a pretty picture, folks, your narrator did not appear in a good light at all. First, my faucet starts leaking, then my sacred word is being seriously questioned, and now I’m in the doghouse and getting thumped on by not just one but all three beautiful women that I care about … it was a very bad week for me.
Much battered in spirit, not to mention somewhat bruised about the upper torso, I went to the library and studied up on the tests they’d been given. As always, the science helps. It turned out that the test they used for men back then was pretty good, but in women, you got a false negative about one time in four. That is to say, for one woman in four who actually had gonorrhea, the test didn’t show it. I’d always been a good mathematician, I took out my pencil and figured that if there was one chance in four of a false positive for any one of them, there was an excellent chance that one or more of them had a bad test result.
So I went back and told that to the good ladies. They were skeptical, but they all went and got retested. It turned out that one of them actually did have the clap, so my honor was restored, I had been telling the truth. I really had been faithful to the three of them and the three of them alone just like I’d sworn to them, and the very best news was … I hadn’t given the disease to either of the other two. And in the end, they all told me they forgave me, although I’m still not clear what I’d done that needed forgiving. But I accepted it with an open heart anyhow, they were wonderful women … however, I digress, I’m just happy I was young after penicillin and before AIDS …
As part of our Resistance work, we arranged all kinds of protests against the war, against imperialism, against poverty. We thought of ourselves as Dadaist revolutionaries, though. I liked to carry random signs in the marches, signs advertising weird stuff, signs just with pictures, strange signs. On one march, I was face to face with the riot police, with everyone waving signs to end the Vietnam war, and yelling slogans. Everyone had their signs, “END THE WAR”, “END THE INVASION”, that kind of thing.
Me, I was in front, hollering at the cops, and I was waving a lovely international orange road sign with black letters I’d found mounted on a post along the protest route, and had brought with me … I was a bit unclear on the “let’s all protest something” concept, I guess, but I knew how to have fun. I used to say that a Revolution you couldn’t laugh at wasn’t worth having.

The Vietnam War went on and on. In December, The Resistance leaders, based in Palo Alto, arranged for the second big mass sit-in at the Alameda Induction Center. At the first Resistance sit-in, everyone had gotten arrested, it was all peaceful, and they all had to do five days at the Santa Rita prison farm. The papers picked it up, it was a one-day wonder, we were all abuzz about how the war machine was cracking and how the Resistance was famous and we were starting to win …
However, the first sit-in had had absolutely no larger effect of any kind that I could tell. After the one day of news, that was it; no follow-up articles, the entire sit-in and the arrests and the jail time just vanished, and the war rolled on without the slightest change.
So the decision was made to do the exact same thing again, another identical sit-in, same time, same place.
Hey, don’t look at me like that. They didn’t solicit my opinion, although at the time I might have agreed. I likely was dumb enough then to do something a second time expecting a different result. So the Santa Cruz Resistance Commune (those of us who could) went up to Oakland for a sit-in at the Army Induction Center to see if we could raise a public outcry and get arrested. “Clog up the gears of the war machine”, I believe was the catchphrase of the time.
I gotta confess, I wasn’t crazy about the whole idea. After spending a month or so locked up in the Navy nuthouse, and then five months behind bars in the Army nuthouse, I was kinda over the whole razor wire and cells and bars and guards experience—the thrill was gone. I’d done my time. But I went along. We were part of The Revolution, so no sacrifice was too great.
Our friends drove us up to Oakland early in the morning. We all got together around six AM, maybe 120 people or so, and we all sat down and blocked the doors of the Induction Center. It was funny, that’s exactly where I’d been inducted a couple of years before. I was one of the few guys in the crowd who’d actually been inside. I’d spent hours in the place.
A “sit-in” is a non-violent event. It’s also, for that very reason, boring as hell. First off, we figured they’d open at eight, but they didn’t even open until nine … so we sat around and told each other stories about how noble our cause was, and how wrong the pigs and the war merchants were, and how much difference we were making. Like I said … booooring.
Eventually, the cops came. The Oakland Police were practiced at the action by then; it wasn’t their first rodeo. They backed up the paddy wagon, the police prisoner van, right up to the mass of sitting people, and just started tossing us in the back. As one wagon got full and left, another pulled right in. It was assembly line arrests; Henry Ford would have been proud. We thought we’d clog up the gears of the war machine? No worries, they had them well-greased. By noon, we were all hauled away, and they were back to inducting draftees into the Army with no sign that anything had happened.
I’d never been in a paddy wagon, the “Black Maria” van the cops use to transport prisoners. But as you know, I’m always up for new experiences. The main thing I remember about it was that it smelled like vomit, no surprise there; it served as the rolling drunk tank most nights of the week. Given a choice, I’d advise taking alternate transportation. They hauled us away to the Justice Center by the packed van load.
We were put in a big cell. No windows, kind of dark. We waited for hours and hours. Waiting bothered some people a lot; they walked and paced, rattled the bars. I’d been locked in rooms like that before in the nuthouse, so I knew waiting of old, waiting was a good friend of mine. I could wait with the best of them. One by one, people left the room to go before the Judge. None came back. We had no idea of our fate.
When my name was finally called, after the darkness of the holding cell, the courtroom was blindingly bright. I blinked and looked around. The Judge was on a high dais; I had to look way up to him. He said, “You are charged with Disturbing the Peace. How do you plead?” Like all of us, I plead guilty to Disturbing the War. The Judge looked just like a frog, puffed up, obviously frustrated by the unending long line of people waiting to come before him and mock his court. He sentenced me to twenty days like everyone else before me, and they started to take me … wait! say what? Twenty days?
Twenty days? We’d figured on getting five days like the last bunch … and since that day was December 13th, that meant we wouldn’t see freedom until the second of January. We’d miss both Christmas and New Year. Pinche cabrón, I hadn’t planned on that, but there it was. My choices were either to dig it or bitch about it, and besides, no sacrifice was too great because we were making such a difference. It just made us more noble. Plus any mathematician could tell you, if we stayed in twenty days we’d make four times the difference that the folks made who stayed five days … of course, that had been zero difference, but we were comforted by the thought that we’d do four times as much.
So I reset my mental retirement clock; my next retirement wouldn’t be in time for Christmas, no, no. I reset for twenty days. No problem, I’d done months inside, I could do twenty days “standing on my head” as they say.
They took us, busload by busload, out to Santa Rita Prison Farm. They had two big connected barracks set aside for us, likely to avoid trouble with the cons. Or maybe to keep us from talking to them about sit-ins, I don’t know. I believe they’ve torn those barracks down since and built something else. We were over 100 guys, including David Harris, the founder of The Resistance. The much smaller number of women went elsewhere.
Being locked up this time wasn’t too bad. I was in a big barracks surrounded by like-minded friends. And best of all, I never once woke up lashed down to a bed, as had happened before several times, and that’s always a huge plus in my world. We talked story and compared lies.
The best day in jail for all of us was Christmas, but not for the usual reason. I woke up and my friend Rodney said, “Hey, check this out!”, with a big grin. He held out a box and told me to look inside. Damn, it was a treasure chest!
What happened was that some guys from the San Jose Resistance had broken into the jail late Christmas eve. That’s right, not out of the jail, but into the jail, like some lifer’s fantasy of Santa Claus for cons. They cut through the outer wire, came across an open area dodging the searchlights, cut through another fence around the barracks area, made it to our barracks, cut through the wire around our barracks, and came right inside.
Zowie. Tip of the Hat.
I talked later to one of the San Jose guys who had done it. He said going that direction was much easier than the alternative because they’re never looking for people breaking into jail. He tried to downplay the whole thing, but I was still very impressed because even if getting in was easier, the guys still had to get back out again … which took some serious stones. I told him what a great gift it had been and what a difference it had made.
In any case, I woke up Christmas morning, and Rodney said that the San Jose guys had awakened him about 2 AM. They had brought in boxes and boxes of cookies, along with several cigarette packs full of joints. Damnbetcha, regular cigarette packets full of neatly-rolled cigarettes of the mystery herb of the ancient Hindus, the eponymous “Indian Hemp”. Plus, there were a few tabs of blotter acid (LSD).
Of course, at that time marijuana and LSD were very illegal, particularly in jail, duh.
But we were in a funny place. Our barracks were the last two in a long row of similar barracks. There was only one way to get to us. It was a long path visible all along its way from the main street to us, and it had four locked gates with long walks in between. So they couldn’t rush us or do anything fast, it took them a couple minutes from when they appeared at the end of the row, out at the far end of the path with four locked gates, to the time when they arrived at the barracks after they had walked and unlocked and relocked and walked and …
So we made no attempt to hide the dope. Instead, we distributed all the joints as fairly as possible, then we all went outside to the veranda. We all lit up at once and stood around sharing joints and eating cookies. We knew that we’d have plenty of time to laugh at the guards if they tried to stop us, and that the cookies and joints would be long gone by the time they got there. The guards did finally show up, late to the party as usual, the weed and the cookies were gone, the acid well hidden. We razzed them, told them they’d missed the party, if only they’d come half an hour earlier we’d have given them cookies and offered them a joint … somehow they didn’t see the humor in it. They ran us all back inside, and lectured us, and searched the veranda area, and then ran us all outside again, and shook down the whole barracks, and found nothing …
The best story of the whole Santa Rita farce, though, happened to one of my friends. He was put in solitary confinement for fighting, not his fault, somehow he’d ended up in a regular cell and his cellmate had attacked him. We smuggled in messages to him, letting him know he wasn’t forgotten.
After Christmas, through our contacts in the joint, we were able to smuggle him one of the tabs of blotter acid that the San Jose guys had brought in. My friend figured, hey, solitary confinement is the best place in the world to drop acid, nobody can mess with me. What are they gonna do … throw me in solitary?
He liked to meditate, that’s what he’d been doing in solitary the whole time. So he took the LSD and figured he’d spend his time doing some really intense meditation. Sat down on the floor, crossed his legs, and pretty soon he was soaring.
Just as the main rush was starting to come on to him, and the cell walls were starting to melt, and the paisley colors were starting to appear on the backs of his hands, he had the very realistic hallucination that his cell door was opening. Of course, being on acid, from the time he first hallucinated hearing the aliens coming towards his door to the time he hallucinated the door finally opening was something like five or six weeks … at least it sure seemed that long, but it was hard to tell, there was that whooshy-whooshy noise that kept coming and going that distorted time too.
It seemed to him in his elevated state that two aliens came in, they looked kinda like guards, he said, but you could tell the difference — he knew they weren’t guards. They said they had a directive from the home planet or something; their words kept echoing and bouncing around his head, or maybe it was just the echoes in the cell, but they were very hard to understand. They said to come with them, so he followed them meekly, wondering vaguely, where were the aliens taking him?
But he didn’t wonder long, because the prison walls of the corridor were so interesting. How come he’d never noticed before that prison walls flex slightly inward and outward when you breathe? He tried to tell the aliens about his discovery, but they told him to shut up.
The faces of the aliens kept changing and melting, but he said he wasn’t afraid; he could tell they were friendly. At one point, the aliens lost the form of guards and then assumed the form of prison officials standing behind a counter. They put a paper bag on the counter and had him sign some papers. One of the alien official people talked to him. He couldn’t hear him at all, but there were little cartoon balloons over the alien’s head. He tried to read them, but they were hard to follow. They said something about how the warden was letting him out two days early because my friend was such a wonderful person, or that he got extra credit for meditating while in the hole, or something; he was never clear on that part, but the aliens walked him right out of the front gate of the prison and left him there. He said he thought they had some power over the guards to let him go.
So before he knew it, there he was in front of the prison farm, let out two days early because of getting credit he didn’t know about for good behavior, all alone, peaking on acid, holding a paper bag with all his possessions, and gazing at the world in total wonder as the miraculous sun shone, and the grass grew, and he was free, free, free! He sat down in the grass right there in front of the Santa Rita prison farm and started talking to the grass, and in a while, the grass grew right through him, he could hear the grass taking over his body, and he became just another part of the very grassiness of the world … and after while he fell asleep.
In the morning, he woke up next to the paper bag containing his wallet and his possessions and didn’t know where he was. He sat up, looked around, saw he was outside the prison, and the memories of the acid trip and his miraculous escape and the aliens came back to him. He got up, walked to the road, and hitchhiked back to Santa Cruz.
And ever after that, he was convinced that LSD could do anything, melt steel bars, open jail doors, and nothing we could say about time off for good behavior would ever convince him differently. The belief never seemed to do him any harm, he never tried to fly off of buildings on acid or anything stupid. He just had an unshakeable faith that everything would turn out right for him … and as is sometimes the case for folks who believe that, for him it always did. Go figure, he was the only one of us who got out in time to celebrate New Year’s Eve.
They let the rest of us out the day after New Years, a cold windy day. The year had turned while we were away, we’d given stopping the War our best shot, and the War didn’t seem to notice at all. We’d missed Christmas. We’d missed the New Year’s party. We’d even missed our fifteen minutes of fame, we were in the slam the next day when the newspapers hit the streets … and by the time we were let out, after twenty days, the world had totally forgotten the sit-in, the story was dead on arrival …
“Oh, you were in a sit-in? I didn’t realize there had been one. Was it exciting?”
On that last day, we went through the standard drill, lines for this, sign here, lines for that, initial the form, put our civilian clothes back on, they handed us our wallets and belts and out the door with you, boyo.
Two of my three girlfriends picked me and a couple of other Santa Cruz Resistance guys up outside the jail, and we all went back to Santa Cruz to plan the next step in the noble fight against the war. One thing was clear, though.
Throwing my skinny okole in jail, whether they did it or I did it to myself, didn’t seem to change the war one bit. I’m a slow learner sometimes … but I never tried that brilliant plan again.
w.




@ur momisugly Mark Bofill Feb 27th 2013. 11.04 am
As you did, to deal with the issues of your original post first.
In the example given by you of a previous post of mine, point taken. This is certainly a judgement by me of a decision made at that time. And that judgement can be taken as condemnatory. You have however excluded consideration of comments made by him prior to that to enable the basis for that to be seen and judged.
As to the final statement I made there: “You had a choice. You choose yourself” this is a simple statement of fact which he, in candor, has illustrated in a previous post. Anyone is free to make a judgement on that without qualifying as a “viscous hypocrite” or similar.
This does NOT alter the fact in any case that the majority of “negative” comments I have read at least do not relate specifically to decisions made at that time. And I still fail to see your basis for dismissing commentators as you did particularly as you (appear to) indicate that you did not read them extensively beforehand.
As to your desire to stick up for Willis, I don’t quible with that. As you say when you come to know someone and their character, you base your responses on that, at least initially. But that does not extend to arbitrarily attacking others with no basis. That is both mindless, and dare I say, to purloin your terminology, viscous.
I too, have read Willis’s comments and arguments, and – am I allowed to say?- attacks on what he has perceived to be faulty. And I too appreciate that he has an independent mind and is able to more often than not apply it effectively.
But this is not a one-way street. You don’t get the option of applying one standard to others and reserving the option of a different one for yourself when convenient, which is what I have seen in this particular post. So I am not going to “make allowances” for “good behavior” in other circumstances.
I can’t say I appreciate your imprecation to demonstrate rationality. Whether this is part of the “tactics” you then go on to admit you are partial to, or whether we have a different conception of rationality is an open to question. I do not consider it an offense to rationality to draw conclusions and then then use clear and categorical words designed to communicate an exact meaning to state them.
I find your comments about seeking to intimidate and bully not just offensive but absurd. If someone is being evasive or less than frank I am not going to pretend that is not the case. And I am going to say so and illustrate it. Why don’t you ask Willis if he thinks this reasonable since I have not noticed him being shy in this way.
Don’t try to incorporate me within your standard of “blog tactics”. I don’t play such games.
jc,
Relax. Nothing you can do about it now, anyway [btw, I served my year in Viet Nam. Tuy Hoa, ’67 – ’68].
It doesn’t matter. Nothing much matters, because when these things proliferate in countries like China, Russia, N. Korea [or even with Obama the Drone King], anyone who gets out of line will be served an injection of ricin.
Maybe that’s why there’s no one else in the universe.
jc says:
February 27, 2013 at 12:13 pm
——–
Ok. There is still quite a bit of apparent misunderstanding here, but fair enough.
@ur momisugly Willis Eschenbach. Feb 27th 2013. 11.22 am.
The following is from a post here by Willis Eschenbach on Feb 25th 2013. 12.26 am. Anyone is free to go and look at the wider context if they wish.
“The fact that you think this is a right/wrong, arrogant/not arrogant, black/white, your generation/my generation kind of deal is not just sooo last century. That two-valued point of view, generation vs. generation, is much more primitive than that … reading your claim is like seeing a dinosaur walking down the street.”
Thank you Willis for the opportunity to have your comments clearly and starkly judged by others.
Anyone can compare the above paragraph written by you with your post of Feb 27th 2013. 11.22 am where you paint me as the scum of the earth and draw their own conclusions.
For me, your statement in the first sentence finishing on the mid second line with “just sooo last century” is unambiguous.
The last century was the the 20th. You in your statement deride another for thoughts you attribute to that century. Ergo, you don’t yourself exist in your thinking in that century. Unless you want to claim that your thoughts reflect the 19th or earlier centuries, you are claiming that your thoughts are representative of the 21st Century. Therefore your respondent is dismissed purely on the basis that they are out of date in their thinking being reflective of the 20th Century, and that you, as a representative of the 21st Century in your thinking, automatically win the point.
In short, you are 21st Century Man. And he is not.
I do not apologize for expressing your claim more concisely than you.
You further insist on your modernity as a 21st Century Man by expostulating that you are so remote from the 20th Century that to merely encounter supposed evidence of that century puts you in mind of dinosaurs.
I think that is pretty clear.
I also think it is pretty clear from your post exactly how you go about dealing with something you don’t want to face.
How to describe it? Dishonest? Evasive? Manipulative? Deceitful?
I’ll settle for despicable.
BTW is that the best thing you could find of all my comments to try to trash me in this inimitable way?
fobdangerclose says:
February 27, 2013 at 11:48 am
w.,
Thanks, Fob. You make the same mistake as did Kennedy and Johnson. They, too, thought the war was a “Commies vs. Free Men” battle. But in the heads of Ho and the Vietnamese, what they wanted to do was to throw out the hated foreign occupiers of their country.
I can’t even imagine what that would be like, but I would certainly hope that if the US were taken over and occupied by some foreign power, that we would fight against that occupying force. I don’t know whether I’d have the stones to continue that fight, year after endless year, from the time I was 15 until just before my death.
Ho started fighting the hated invaders when he was 15 … and that was in 1905. Since communism wouldn’t even be invented for another decade, it’s clear what drove the man. He continued that fight all his life. Heck, the US OSS supported him during the war because he was driving the Japanese mad.
Was he a good guy, a nice guy? No, by no means. He was a ruthless man, as he had to be to fight for nearly sixty years. And he, like Mao and Stalin, following Karl Marx’s lethal ideas, and imprisoned or “re-educated” or executed many of his own people.
He believed, rightly or wrongly, that he was fighting for the liberation of the Vietnamese people from foreign overlords … not sure if that was his own end, or the end shared by millions of his countrymen. Most Vietnamese peasants couldn’t have cared less if Ho was a communist, a fascist, or a Buddhist … as long as he was kicking foreign occupying armies out of Vietnam that was fine with them.
Sadly, as I said, that landed them with Communism in addition to being in charge of their own country for the first time in sixty years …
The sure as hell didn’t get them from me … but then I know little about them, other than that they use bombs, a means of settling disputes that I and most of my generation abhorred … so I’m not clear what you’re saying here.
Haven’t a clue, never been much interested in Greenpeace or Earth First, don’t even know what the charter of either one says. You’re the expert, I guess … so why are you asking me?
…
Fob, my point is simple. We totally misjudged the motivation of our enemy. And when you do that, and his motive is mostly a burning Vietnamese patriotism shared even by his Vietnamese opponents, and he’s already been playing the game for 45 years … well, you get your ass handed to you, and that’s what happened to us.
People say, well, if he didn’t have his bases in Hanoi, if we could have mined the harbor, we could have won. Or if we could have bombed North Vietnam, we would have won.
I think that is the most wishful of thinking. Remember that Ho had spent years fighting the French and the Japanese without a base in Hanoi, where the occupying army occupied all of Vietnam, not just half of it … and he STILL beat them bloody until they left, with no Hanoi, no bases, no nothing.
Here’s a joke from that time that I heard in the army. The grunts at least understood the war. Here’s the joke.
…
The grunts knew the truth. They knew that although it was a joke, in the real Vietnam that kid would indeed go back and get another mortar round, and spend six months taking it south again, and repeat that until he died, driven by a desire to throw out the invaders … while our guys just wanted to get home alive, nobody but Charlie was voluntarily signing up for the kind of hell that kid had to go through on every trip … and the GIs knew that was very bad news, it meant their enemy would never surrender, just dig more tunnels and continue the fight, and thus we’d never win. It was news to be discussed in bleak humor like the joke above.
The GIs understood the problem with the war, even if the Generals and politicians didn’t. They knew that with an enemy protecting his own precious sacred homeland with that kind of insane dedication and drive, they would not give up even if we “reduced North Vietnam to the Stone Age” as some recommended. They were fighting foreign invaders before they had North Vietnam, they fought them before Communism even existed, and by God they were going the finish the job and reclaim their own destiny, regardless whether North Vietnam ended up a burnt cinder … and then we naively, with the best of intentions and the worst of understandings, stuck our own poorly motivated foot in the bear trap, and paid the price.
I think you can predict the outcome of such a war, where one side would (and did) fight for almost sixty years for the right to decide their own destiny, and the other side was only motivated by some romantic anti-Communst chivalry …
Yes, they did end up with Communism, and they’re now paying the price … but my guess is, it’s a hell of a lot better than under Japanese occupation …
And yes, Ho was a thoroughly cold and cruel man, he was engaged in a life-or-death battle for his country for 55 years … you don’t end up being Fred Rogers of Mr. Rogers’ Neighborhood after that. Not a nice man at all.
And yes, he believed in Communism … they were the only ones who ever helped him, everyone else tried their best to kill him, which would hardly endear Western political systems to him … and so his followers suffered from all of the usual Commie repression and re-education and secret police and executions.
The man the left used to call “kindly Uncle Ho”, who wasn’t at all kindly in the slightest, did just like I (and perhaps you), would have done. He made a deal with the devil to help him throw out the people who kept the Vietnamese enslaved for decades … and Vietnam is now paying the price.
But I can’t say I wouldn’t have done the same, I’m a patriot, if someone were to take over and occupy the US, I trust that I’d be in the resistance, and anyone who wants to give me guns and support, I’d take them, I’d take any help where I could get it, and hold my nose and hope for the best.
My best regards to all, and please, guys, be clear—I’m not dissing you, I’m not dissing the US, and I’m not dissing the men who served. I’m just another poor fool trying to make sense of the choices that I’ve made in my life, so I’d appreciate it if you’d cut me some slack.
w.
jc says:
February 27, 2013 at 1:16 pm
That was addressed to me … so obviously you don’t understand that I don’t hold discussions with liars. Addressing your words to me is a joke, jc … what part of “you’re talking to the hand” escaped your piercing intellect?
And trying to convince the rest of the folks here of your claimed noble purity and honesty? Good luck with that Quixotic quest … even Denniswingo has been holding an interesting conversation with me, as have many others, so good luck in passing off your usual chicanery and doublespeak with them, people here see through that stuff.
Buh-bye …
w.
@ur momisugly Willis Eschenbach Feb. 27, 2013 at 1.51 pm.
People can read.
w.
No Slack.
Ho was just the useful fool the Russians and other commie killers used to feed the poor NVA troops to the 36 B-52’s at a time.
The thing is Kissinger lied, LBJ lied, Dan Rather lied, Kenney lied, Ho lied, Mao lied, and sorry to say you and 100,000’s of thousands of the 1960’s anti war types were lied to.
American fighting men were lied about. Still are.
You speak of what Grunts knew. How so.
Grunts re-took Hue.
The VC and NVA by the time they did had all the school teachers shot dead, the city leaders all shot, the guys who ran the power generation station shot because they helped to make the electricy work, the large and small bussiness owners in the whole of the city all shot.
Now I ask you, were those foreign invaders?
Who where the men of RECON Team Kansas, who was Lt. Terrance C. Graves, where is Sgt. Jerry Michale Shriver , where did John Walton son of the Sam Walton serve.
fobdangerclose says: February 27, 2013 at 11:48 am
“….Does it follow in that case that Ho Chi Min was a liar, a dishonest man, a person who sent millions of his own people to die for his cause of redistribution of wealth. …”
fob, you demonstrate here that you have failed to consider the most likely alternative case: Had the USA stayed the hell out of there, very few may have died. And in regard to his motivation, you should consider the possibility he may have been primarily a nationalist and a patriot.
Your characterization perhaps far more closely fits the appalling Lyndon Johnson.
fobdangerclose says: February 27, 2013 at 2:12 pm
“….The thing is Kissinger lied, LBJ lied, Dan Rather lied, Kenney lied, Ho lied, Mao lied, and sorry to say you and 100,000′s of thousands of the 1960′s anti war types were lied to….”
Ya start’n to see the problem now, fob… and the 1960’s antiwar types (and the grunts) were mainly lied to by their own government ….. I guess that is what they were arguing about.
Willis Eschenbach says, February 27, 2013 at 1:30 pm: “Ho started fighting the hated invaders when he was 15 … and that was in 1905. Since communism wouldn’t even be invented for another decade, it’s clear what drove the man.”
============================================================
Communism was invented long before 1905.
The “Communist Manifesto”, originally titled “Manifesto of the Communist Party” was written in 1848, a year after the “Communist League” was established.
Willis Eschenbach says, February 27, 2013 at 1:30 pm: “Thanks, Fob. You make the same mistake as did Kennedy and Johnson. They, too, thought the war was a “Commies vs. Free Men” battle. But in the heads of Ho and the Vietnamese, what they wanted to do was to throw out the hated foreign occupiers of their country.”
================================================================
There were no foreign occupiers in the South Vietnam, nor were any in the North Vietnam.
Like in other countries, communists took over a part of the territory (North Vietnam) and wanted to take over the rest of it (South Vietnam). And the whole world, of course.
Willis Eschenbach says: February 27, 2013 at 1:30 pm
All well said, Willis.
I’d argue however that Jeffrey Record probably has it correct, and for both of them it was more about the way they were perceived by the voters and how they would win the next election. Even Nixon managed to waste tens of thousands more American lives and countless Vietnamese lives while he vacillated for four years worrying about the internal political effects. http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/r/record-war.html
And re the second statement, sure they paid a heavy price, but now capitalism is thriving there and the place is booming. Saigon is a delightfully pretty city (in the central area) other than the millions of motorcycles and a rapidly increasing number of cars clogging the roads. Hanoi is a little more serious in nature, but completely welcoming to everyone … the whole country seems to like and admire all things American.
Oh, if only the USA leadership had followed the OSS recommendations and Ho’s early requests for support in 1945 and 46 …. My opinion is that Ho Chi Minh’s ideas of communism would have lasted about six months with those determined, hardworking, entrepreneurial, admirable people. And the USA would have been their best friend.
So, we meet once more, same old LAX deal, same old, same old it gets old.
Your all correct to fear the truth, your all on your game, your all the same as before.
Ho the mass killer was my fault.
Hue was just a misjudgment of the use of death and does not fit the profile of the liars base line.
Russia was never the killer kings.
Just those 17 year old kids from Texas farms and ranches, the 18 year olds from the hills of West Va. the big old lumber jack’s kids from Minn. .
Just some more misdirected men who defended freedom only to have the gene pool set up then to morf into this CO2 re-distribution fraud, that is once more just a front for commie lust for death of freedom.
Your not going to get the last word no matter how long the lie or how long you finger fight here and forever.
Mean old mr history knows as do you, self deception the final lie solution.
Now you judge and prove up yourselves for all time.
“there was no way that the US, France, Japan, or China would defeat them”
Incorrect and mythical fantasy of what was possible. This is at best your undeucated opinion of something you have no expertise in.
“So far, we’re up to centuries and counting,”
Wrong. The Afghans have been conquered a dozen times. Most notably by Alexander the Great. Most recently by the British.
“Vietnam first defeated China, then France, then Japan, then France again, then the US. ”
First of all, your knowledge of the history of the region is flawed. Your list is wrong and missing one country. It is also very narrow. The Vietnamese were conquered many times including by the Siamese.
The point of this is that you – and people like you – use these myths to perpetuate the futility of a war. It is simply not true. All areas of the world have been conquered.
“And despite that, you think we should have continued the war, it seems, and thus you accuse me of causing “the killing of millions” for wanting to stop the war … millions are dying, I want to stop the unwinnable war, you want to continue the killing … …”
You still believe this in the face of the FACTS of history? The war didn’t end when we left. Did you not see how many people died. Imagine 50K died a year for the next 10 years if we were there as a stabilizing force. That would have been half a million. And that is an overestimate given that far fewer than that were dying before we left.
In those 10 years following your “peace”, nearly 5 million humans suffered and died. Conservatively, 10 times as many as if we had stayed. That blood IS on your hands. 4 million or more people would have lived out there lives if we had remained to stabilize. You played a role in that historical decision to withdraw and you PERSONALLY are responsible for 4 million deaths.
I know that is harsh. I know it is shocking to you to contemplate that the actions you took – fully intending the oppoisite – had an unintended and opposite consequence. You mean no harm. But you quite literally allowed that 8 year old boys parents to get shot. All in the name of peace.
I would understand and forgive you for your youthful foolishness if you understood now the full impact of the side you took and your part in these deaths. But you don’t. You see what you did as noble. You didn’t stick around to see the aftermath of what you did. You left those people to hell. And then went and got high with your buddies.
“My friend, I can’t tell you how backwards your theory is.”
It is not a theory. It is a historical fact. I quoted the casualties to you. You chose to support the takeover of a communist of a country. We never occupied it and were not viewed as such by the population we were protecting. Why do you think millions fled?
“By “defeated” I mean they kicked our asses out of the country like they did the rest … I call that “defeated”, what do you mean by it?”
They defeated us. But they were not undefeatable. They were – in fact – defeated. As someone else pointed out, the bombing campaign was highly effective and the Northern population was turning. The conflict levels were very low and the NVA was in serious talks.
“PS—Costa Rica hasn’t ever been defeated in war.”
You sir – are an idiot and should stay out of subjects of war and politics. Costa Rica was a Spanish Colony. They were controlled by the Spaniards.
“1. I had no role in “the killing of millions”, I fought to stop that killing.”
Unintended consequences. You wanted peace. But peace killed millions. I know this is counterintuitive to you. And certainly does not square with your self image or intentions. But it IS THE REALITY. 4 million or more people died that NEVER WOULD HAVE.
“2. I had nothing to do with the divorce rate, are you mad? I’m not divorced, nor are most of my friends.”
The thinking you espoused of free love, etc… certainly did. Whether you are an exception, you helped create the rule.
“3. Latch key kids? Say what? I’ve done right by my kids.”
Perhaps. Same point as 2 though.
“I fear that you are just lashing out in pain.”
Wrong. I am attacking your role in history. Trying to personalize the effects of hippie culture to my life or to ignore it by pointing out your exceptions does nothing to be honest about the negative impact of a movement you seem proud to have been a part of.
“Obviously, you or someone close to you was mistreated as a child”
Wrong. Don’t try to divert again.
“Why did they thank me? Because I did help them advance the work. That seems to drive you ’round the twist, Bill. I’m not sure why. ”
Because too many of your type seem to imagine that you held a special role at what you imagine was a special time in civil rights. Your generation was just one of many that did so and will do so in the future.
” I know that because unlike you, I was there, and you’re just making things up …”
So since you weren’t in Vietnam are you just making that up? I have been there. Others on here (heroes to me) fought there. You held up random signs and did drugs. You are no hero.
I will be blunt with you Willis. You should feel shame for the period you right about in this post. You acted in a dishonorable way and failed to even pay attention to the horrors which followed on from your movement.
You have done nothing to go to Vietnam and talk to those people in South Vietnam. Who in whspers will tell you how wrong you are. Go there Willis. Instead of writing a self-serving narcasistic autobiography, get off your butt and go investigate what really happened as a result of this period. Go out into the world and experience the impact. Study the history and talk to the people who lived more of it than the narrow part you saw.
Don’t just read books by others. Go out and check out what I am talking about. Go to Afghanistan. Go to Iraq. Go to Vietnam.
Whatever you do, stop fantasizing that what you did was right. I am spitting on you and throwing the blood of those dead Vietnamese parents on you over this blog. How does it feel? Well your compatriots did that to some very good people who had good intentions too.
I hope they haunt you as they have haunted me since I stepped out of that taxi in Saigon. They are the ones I am angry for. I am speaking for them.
I will continue to live my life as best I can with honor and to actually do things to make the world a better place. You will take another toke while imagining your glory days.
markx says: February 27, 2013 at 3:17 pm: ” …My opinion is that Ho Chi Minh’s ideas of communism would have lasted about six months with those determined, hardworking, entrepreneurial, admirable people…”
=========================================================
The problem is that people who do not like ideas of communism in countries under communist rule get killed or imprisoned. I recommend this Russian film (with English subtitles): CHEKA (Soviet Extraordinary Commission) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxujYNp2q10).
Upon re-reading, I thought I might explain my position regarding jc and other commenters.
First, I am a decent, responsible, hard-working, honest, patriotic, caring, compassionate, thoughtful family man. Hundreds of people that I have worked for and with and been friends with in my life will tell you the same. All of the stereotypes of people who went to jail in the 1960’s, I’m not them—I’m me, with a whole ‘nother set of things going on.
Second, I’m not the person I was at twenty-two any more than you are. As I mentioned above, I was so stupid then I thought Karl Marx was one of the good guys … can’t get more wrong than that. So please don’t try to decipher what I believe now from my stories. I’m telling them as they happened to me.
Next, I’m telling the story of my life here on the web, a curious enterprise to be sure. And I’m happy to discuss it with anyone willing to move the discussion forwards. I can’t tell you how much I’ve learned already from people’s comments and their stories and ideas and their views on what I’ve done and how they see it.
However, I’m absolutely not willing to be the target of decades of pent-up feelings about the war and it’s surroundings.
So let me lay out my own criteria for the discussion, ground rules to keep us from dumping old resentments on each other.
1. If I say something you disagree with, QUOTE IT. I’m happy to defend and explain my own ideas. I cannot defend or explain your interpretation of my ideas. Quote what you object to, and that alone. That way, everyone knows just what you don’t like, and why.
2. I will not discuss motives. For example, what was my motive for going to jail? Heck, even at this late date I’d be hard pressed to say why I did it, I sure didn’t want to go to jail … so your speculations are even more useless than my own. Leave all speculation as to motive out, none of us know that about the other.
3. If you don’t understand something I say or are not sure of the meaning, ASK. Don’t make assumptions, because I’m not like most folks, I have my own curious and strange reasons for what I do, and your assumptions may well be wrong. In addition, what seems perfectly clear to me may touch a nerve or be totally misunderstood by others, so ASK if my words aren’t clear.
4. I’m a damn prickly curmudgeon about my word of honor. I do not tell lies. I have made every effort to tell the truth as I know it. I have been wrong many times here in the harsh glare of the public eye, but I have always told the truth as best I know it. I don’t misquote people, I don’t to put words in their mouth, I endeavor to be as honest and truthful as I can. Be cautious with your accusations.
5. Don’t ever misquote me or claim I said something I didn’t say. That is one of the worst offenses in my book, lying about what I’ve said or claimed. For example, jc started with this nonsense:
Bad enough, since I had said nothing about either 21st Century Man (whatever negative image he might represent in jc’s head) or about “inconvenient truth”, it was all made up by jc … but then he went on to say (emphasis mine):
No sir, that’s a damned lie. I said nothing of the sort, nor did I assert it. I called something, I can’t even remember what, “sooo twentieth century”. This is one of the common modern hyperbolic ways of saying something is way out of date, outmoded, past it’s use-by date.
But I never claimed anything about being the capitalized, idealized “Twenty-first Century Man”, that’s a total falsehood. jc took his fantasy about what I said, and then claimed that I had asserted it …
I’m sorry, but I can’t deal with a man when he’s doing that. That’s just rabid attack dog madness, it’s a total misrepresentation of my position, there’s no discussion in there, nothing of value. Why should I participate? There’s nothing for me to learn in there.
So, jc and others, I’m as willing as ever to discuss these issues. But QUOTE MY WORDS, not the whole post but the exact words that you disagree with, and tell me why I’m wrong. Leave out all the tired old ethical judgements about what you fancy are my motives, I’m not that man. And please, if something I say seems strange or touches a nerve, ask me to explain it.
I will do my utmost to adhere to these rules as well. So I’m happy to reboot the conversation … but this kind of thing won’t get any traction:
Please take care how you enter the conversation. The unpleasant attack above was someone’s first words … dang, there’s no need for that. I often judge people on their first words, I have to, not enough hours in a day. You come in like that, I’ll probably treat you with contempt. That’s likely not the correct response, but it’s the likely response. jc came in, first thing he did was to announce that he agreed with the above attack … I look at that and think ok, another angry man who just wants to bite whatever he misconceives my position to be … and yes, I fear I was right.
So let’s reboot this conversation, come in and ask intelligent questions, and question my less-than-intelligent statements, and explore the subject, you’re more than welcome.
But if you show up firing heavy artillery accusing me of being the reason for all of the ills of America and the cause of increasing divorce and child abandonment … not so much.
My best to all,
w.
Greg House says:
February 27, 2013 at 3:13 pm
Huh? There were foreign occupiers in Vietnam, and had been for years, when we waltzed in the door to seize the faltering flag from the departing French.
We brought in our army, half a million strong, occupied the country, established our own rules about who would be killed and where, set up free fire zones, established curfews, sprayed large areas with defoliants containing teratogenic chemicals, “resettled” (meaning forcibly evacuated) villages, assasinated village leaders under the Phoenix program, invaded neighboring countries, and even tossed out their President and replaced him with our own tame poodle … seems a whole lot like an occupation to me …
And more to the point, it seemed exactly like an occupation to millions of Vietnamese. You might debate the fine points, but to them we were just like the French and the Japanese and the Chinese who had ruled over Vietnam for decades … we were just the latest in a string of hated foreign overlords claiming the right to kill whoever we wanted.
That’s why they were so hard to beat. We were fighting against the Vietnamese equivalent of the Minutemen of the American revolution, people impelled more by a wish to throw off foreign domination than anything else. Sure, they had other motives, as did the American revolutionaries, but what drove the Vietnamese to fight for sixty years was the common human desire to rule their own destiny.
And people doing that are really, really hard to whup, especially when they’ve had 45 years to get ready to fight you, warming up with the preliminary contenders, and as a result they have practiced all their killing moves and have them down pat …
Thanks, Greg, always appreciated.
w.
PS—Again, folks, if you disagree with what I said, more power to you, that’s how I learn, but please DON’T say something like “No, Willis, how dumb can you be, you’re totally wrong.” I can’t learn anything from that except that you have an opinion …
Instead, do what Greg did, and QUOTE MY WORDS, just the ones you disagree with, and show us why you think that one point I made is wrong. One clearly defined issue at a time, we can move forwards. Thanks.
Willis Eschenbach says, February 27, 2013 at 10:28 pm: “We brought in our army, half a million strong, occupied the country, established our own rules about who would be killed and where, set up free fire zones, established curfews, sprayed large areas with defoliants containing teratogenic chemicals, “resettled” (meaning forcibly evacuated) villages, assasinated village leaders under the Phoenix program, invaded neighboring countries, and even tossed out their President and replaced him with our own tame poodle … seems a whole lot like an occupation to me …”
========================================================
American military were in South Vietnam, but not as an occupying power. I can not believe that you do not understand that, sorry.
South Vietnam was a sovereign state called “Republic of Vietnam” (1955–75). Its capital was Saigon. America (and other countries) helped Republic of Vietnam to fight against communists who wanted to take over the country. America’s help was needed and welcomed by the government. No trace of occupation there, because occupation suggests a military control and rule against the will of the sovereign.
Now, please, tell us that you did not understand the difference.
Greg House says: February 27, 2013 at 7:18 pm
“…The problem is that people who do not like ideas of communism in countries under communist rule get killed or imprisoned. I recommend this Russian film (with English subtitles): CHEKA (Soviet Extraordinary Commission) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxujYNp2q10)….”
Sigh. We know all that, Greg. Question is whether the US of A made the correct decisions at the correct time and if it carried them out as planned and if they reached a satisfactory conclusion.
My score on that is four fails.
Did they really do it for noble reasons, or were military, and political motives behind it?
Well, you know what I think there.
Were there possible alternative courses that may have given a better result?
Well, its hard to imagine a worse result.
Did the process as carried out manage to prevent deaths and suffering to the extent that that it was an improvement over what may have a happened under an internal transition to Hanoi rule?
With 58,000 American deaths, that of several thousand of their allies, more than one million NVA and VC deaths, and somewhere between 200,000 to 500,000 civilians, that is a little hard to imagine, right?
Greg, let me ask you to be more specific in your claims. For example, which of my statements do you say are not true, and which would you say are true:
Yes, we were “invited” in, just as the Russians were “invited” into Afghanistan … but for the average Vietnamese peasant whose farm just got defoliated by American chemicals dropped from an American bomber, I fear that didn’t give him a warm fuzzy feeling about Americans …
Because at the end of the day, whether you or I think or thought that America was an “occupying power” is totally immaterial. The issue is that the Vietnamese themselves, after 45 years of occupation by foreign powers, saw no difference in the actions of the Americans—just like the French, Japanese, and Chinese, we came in, kicked out their President, put in our own puppet leader, assassinated opposition leaders, destroyed villages in order to same them, ripped people out of their ancestral homes … what are you calling “occupation” if that’s not it?
Because that’s assuredly what the Vietnamese called it, and why they fought just as hard against us as they had against the previous occupying powers. Johnson made the same mistake. He assumed that what he saw as friendly aid and opposition to communism, the Vietnamese saw the same way … but that wasn’t true in the slightest. They saw us as foreign oppressors, and responded in that manner, whether it was true or not. And that’s the only thing that counts, what they believed they were fighting for … not what you or I or Johnson thought was going on, or even what was actually going on, but what they believed they were fighting for.
All the best,
w.
Greg House says: February 27, 2013 at 11:29 pm
“…American military were in South Vietnam, but not as an occupying power. I can not believe that you do not understand that, sorry….”
Greg, you are correct. They were ‘invited’ by those in power (a fairly dodgy lot, reliant on US support). But to villagers in the countryside, they probably looked a lot more like invaders, and the bullets and bombs may feel different too, but I ain’t sure about that:
Ambassador Maxwell Taylor informs South Vietnamese Premier Phan Huy Quat that the United States is preparing to send 3,500 U.S. Marines to Vietnam to protect the U.S. airbase at Da Nang.
Three days later, a formal request was submitted by the U.S. Embassy, asking the South Vietnamese government to “invite” the United States to send the Marines. Premier Quat, a mere figurehead, had to obtain approval from the real power, Gen. Nguyen Van Thieu, chief of the Armed Forces Council.
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/us-informs-south-vietnam-of-intent-to-send-marines
And by the way; It is called “The American War” in Vietnam.
I think those who contributed the most pain, and yet still achieved their aims, get naming rights, correct?
markx says, February 28, 2013 at 12:05 am: “And by the way; It is called “The American War” in Vietnam.”
================================================================
There was no “Vietnam”, as I said previously. Second, it was a typical communist war, and America and other countries provided military help against those savages.
Willis Eschenbach says, February 28, 2013 at 12:00 am: “Greg, let me ask you to be more specific in your claims. For example, which of my statements do you say are not true, and which would you say are true [a long list follows…]…”
========================================================
I prefer to stick to the key points. What apparently is not correct from what you said is this:
1. “the Americans started trying to tell Vietnam what to do…” – wrong, because here was no Vietnam, there was North Vietnam ruled by communists and this communist state, supported by the communist Soviet Union, invaded South Vietnam. The Americans and other countries defended the South Vietnam.
2. “And if Communists helped them kick out the latest occupying foreign army, because you cannot deny we were that,” – wrong, because there was no American occupation there, occupation suggests a military control and rule against the will of the sovereign.
3. “Ho started fighting the hated invaders when he was 15 … and that was in 1905. Since communism wouldn’t even be invented for another decade, it’s clear what drove the man.” – wrong, because communism was invented long before 1905. The “Communist Manifesto”, originally titled “Manifesto of the Communist Party” was written in 1848, a year after the “Communist League” was established.
Now you can ask yourself, who is going to believe that you did not know that.