Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
I’ve written about my time in the US Army, and about spending time behind bars getting out of the Army, in my story called It’s Not About Me. In that story, I discussed a bit of my view on the Vietnam war, the view echoed by many who have studied it since—that it was the wrong war, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. My experience was that the Vietnam war damaged every single person it touched, on both sides of the Pacific, and more than anyone it damaged some of the veterans who’d actually done the fighting. I know that because I spent months in the nuthouse assisting the physically crippled and the memory damaged. My friends there were the shell-shocked refuse of the carnage. It’s not my wish to refight the war or what I did regarding the war, just to tell my story about it, so please, let’s not turn this into a referendum on some imaginary “right” response to the Vietnam War—there weren’t any of those, just levels of wrong responses, plus pain and suffering enough for all.
Christina Dorothea Dyer Greene, and looking at that lovely old granny, you’d never guess she’d once put a voodoo death curse on a middle-aged man … and he died within the week. Another story I should tell sometime.
A couple years after I got out of the nuthouse and the Army, I went to live with the Captain’s Daughter, my beloved grandmother we called “My-mummie” whom I’ve written about before. It was a great experience for me. It was after my grandfather’s death, and my oldest cousin was living there as well. She and I have always been close. We cooked dinner and washed and dried the dishes and kept up the grounds and did house maintenance and such for My-mummie. The best part was that I could hear her stories again (and some for the first time) as an adult and not as a seven-year-old kid. I lived with her about a year, it was fascinating, I’ll write more about her sometime.
After a while, though, I wanted my own place. I loved My-mummie, but eventually, I had to move out on my own. A friend of my cousin’s said she needed someone to caretake a tiny one-room cabin she owned near Santa Cruz, totally enclosed by a state forest. I said sure and moved out there. It was an enchanted place. It always reminded me of Snow White’s pad. It was quite close to Santa Cruz but totally hidden. You’d drive through the protected forest, and there was a little clearing with a little house in the sunlight, the famous “bee-loud glade”. I continued making and selling sandals.
This was also the first time I ever made money from my art. I mean as opposed to my music. I started making and selling mobiles. I made light fixtures that were mobiles, using glass, and candelabras, and railroad lanterns, and pieces of cut steel, and crystals, and found objects. They moved and spun, casting an ever-changing, entrancing light. They were beautiful, and they were easy to make and sell, people snapped them up as fast as I finished them, so I generally had a bit of money, not much, but enough.
Of course, the Vietnam War was still going on; it hadn’t stopped because I’d managed to get my invitation canceled. I met some people who were in a loose confederation called “The Resistance”. The Resistance was founded by David Harris, who was married to the singer Joan Baez at the time. Some of us Resistance guys rented a house just behind the Santa Cruz Boardwalk on Second Street. We called it the “Resistance Commune”. We were hippies, we were opposed to the Vietnam War. We believed in peace and love. Bored middle-aged housewives brought food to the house and gave money, so we’d be free to work to end the war. And we did work, we did what we could, and we worked hard at it.
It was a strange time. We believed in something vague called “The Revolution”. We weren’t sure what that was, but we knew we were at the forefront of it. It involved throwing out everything that our parents believed. That much was obvious from the terrible hole it left behind. Beyond that, we were making up the song as we were singing it.
It was also the time of “free love”. I later learned that (for me at least) love is rarely free, but we were young and didn’t know that yet. At the time I was sexually involved with three women. Not at the same instant or in the same bed, you understand, but at the same time. They all three lived in a commune called the “River Street House”. They all knew each other, they were good friends, they all knew about me, there were no secrets between us. None of us thought much about it, it went on for a couple months, it was great … well, it was actually fantastic until I came down with the clap, and I had to tell all three of them.
Gonorrhea. Ugly word, I know, and an ugly reality, but I have to be honest about the bad as well as the good. I’ve said I am telling my tale warts and all, and having the clap definitely qualifies as more than a wart in my world.
I got the usual symptom, a leaky faucet, went to the doctor, got tested, and I got the bad news. So I called the three lovely ladies all together and told them all at one time, so there was no misunderstanding and we could get it clear. I said that I had the clap and that I must have gotten it from one of them, because I hadn’t had sex with anyone else, and I was willing to swear to that.
Now, after I published my story about hopping freight trains, people wrote in the comments to say I should issue clear warnings in my stories, so fools don’t try to follow my path. They said I should do that to keep a bunch of maroons from cluttering up the rail yards with their corpses and body parts and drowning in the Kenai and the like trying to follow my lead. Seemed excessive to me, like the sign on my aluminum foil reflective car screen that keeps the sun off of the dashboard when I park, covering the front window entirely. The sign says, no bull, it says
“WARNING! Do not drive the car with this sunscreen in position”.
Really? We’ve fallen that far?
In any case, to keep folks from complaining about this story, here’s my Official Warning—kids, don’t try this one at home. Do whatever you have to do in order to avoid telling three women at the same time that one gave you gonorrhea and you might have given it to the other two. I assure you, Miss Manners classifies it as a major social blunder.
Plus it’s not an easy subject to bring up, regardless of how you lay the groundwork, and I’ll tell you, gonorrhea is a real bitch to just casually slip into a conversation without groundwork. Like “Oh, yeah, guess what, dearest ladies, funniest thing happened to me yesterday, I was passing by my doctor’s, and I thought I’d drop in, you’ll never believe what he told me …”
That wasn’t the hardest part, though. As uncomfortable and painful as it had been for me to tell the three of them that I’d gotten the clap from one of them and I might have passed it on, there was worse to come.
First, though, we all had to walk on eggshells around each other, no sex for anyone until they got their results back from the lab, from memory that took three-four days.
Now, for those men out there who have had the unfortunate luck to be falsely accused, and who have had to try to convince a furious woman of your actual innocence, that you have been true to her and only her, you have not been cheating on her, and that you are telling her the 100% facts of the case, I’m sure you all can testify how just how hard and painful that is …
Well, just be thankful that you have not had to try to convince three furious women, who have just gotten out of the car after driving back from the clinic together, three furious women who have been discussing your shortcomings and lack of honesty because all of their tests turned out negative. Consider trying to convince them that you have been true to them and only them, that you haven’t been unfaithful to the three of them in either thought or word or deed, and that you’re telling God’s own truth. I don’t recommend it for the weak of heart.
Of course, they didn’t believe a word of what I was saying; understandably, they had the medical proof. The three of them got in my face all at once, shouting, punching my shoulders … it was truly not a pretty picture, folks, your narrator did not appear in a good light at all. First, my faucet starts leaking, then my sacred word is being seriously questioned, and now I’m in the doghouse and getting thumped on by not just one but all three beautiful women that I care about … it was a very bad week for me.
Much battered in spirit, not to mention somewhat bruised about the upper torso, I went to the library and studied up on the tests they’d been given. As always, the science helps. It turned out that the test they used for men back then was pretty good, but in women, you got a false negative about one time in four. That is to say, for one woman in four who actually had gonorrhea, the test didn’t show it. I’d always been a good mathematician, I took out my pencil and figured that if there was one chance in four of a false positive for any one of them, there was an excellent chance that one or more of them had a bad test result.
So I went back and told that to the good ladies. They were skeptical, but they all went and got retested. It turned out that one of them actually did have the clap, so my honor was restored, I had been telling the truth. I really had been faithful to the three of them and the three of them alone just like I’d sworn to them, and the very best news was … I hadn’t given the disease to either of the other two. And in the end, they all told me they forgave me, although I’m still not clear what I’d done that needed forgiving. But I accepted it with an open heart anyhow, they were wonderful women … however, I digress, I’m just happy I was young after penicillin and before AIDS …
As part of our Resistance work, we arranged all kinds of protests against the war, against imperialism, against poverty. We thought of ourselves as Dadaist revolutionaries, though. I liked to carry random signs in the marches, signs advertising weird stuff, signs just with pictures, strange signs. On one march, I was face to face with the riot police, with everyone waving signs to end the Vietnam war, and yelling slogans. Everyone had their signs, “END THE WAR”, “END THE INVASION”, that kind of thing.
Me, I was in front, hollering at the cops, and I was waving a lovely international orange road sign with black letters I’d found mounted on a post along the protest route, and had brought with me … I was a bit unclear on the “let’s all protest something” concept, I guess, but I knew how to have fun. I used to say that a Revolution you couldn’t laugh at wasn’t worth having.

The Vietnam War went on and on. In December, The Resistance leaders, based in Palo Alto, arranged for the second big mass sit-in at the Alameda Induction Center. At the first Resistance sit-in, everyone had gotten arrested, it was all peaceful, and they all had to do five days at the Santa Rita prison farm. The papers picked it up, it was a one-day wonder, we were all abuzz about how the war machine was cracking and how the Resistance was famous and we were starting to win …
However, the first sit-in had had absolutely no larger effect of any kind that I could tell. After the one day of news, that was it; no follow-up articles, the entire sit-in and the arrests and the jail time just vanished, and the war rolled on without the slightest change.
So the decision was made to do the exact same thing again, another identical sit-in, same time, same place.
Hey, don’t look at me like that. They didn’t solicit my opinion, although at the time I might have agreed. I likely was dumb enough then to do something a second time expecting a different result. So the Santa Cruz Resistance Commune (those of us who could) went up to Oakland for a sit-in at the Army Induction Center to see if we could raise a public outcry and get arrested. “Clog up the gears of the war machine”, I believe was the catchphrase of the time.
I gotta confess, I wasn’t crazy about the whole idea. After spending a month or so locked up in the Navy nuthouse, and then five months behind bars in the Army nuthouse, I was kinda over the whole razor wire and cells and bars and guards experience—the thrill was gone. I’d done my time. But I went along. We were part of The Revolution, so no sacrifice was too great.
Our friends drove us up to Oakland early in the morning. We all got together around six AM, maybe 120 people or so, and we all sat down and blocked the doors of the Induction Center. It was funny, that’s exactly where I’d been inducted a couple of years before. I was one of the few guys in the crowd who’d actually been inside. I’d spent hours in the place.
A “sit-in” is a non-violent event. It’s also, for that very reason, boring as hell. First off, we figured they’d open at eight, but they didn’t even open until nine … so we sat around and told each other stories about how noble our cause was, and how wrong the pigs and the war merchants were, and how much difference we were making. Like I said … booooring.
Eventually, the cops came. The Oakland Police were practiced at the action by then; it wasn’t their first rodeo. They backed up the paddy wagon, the police prisoner van, right up to the mass of sitting people, and just started tossing us in the back. As one wagon got full and left, another pulled right in. It was assembly line arrests; Henry Ford would have been proud. We thought we’d clog up the gears of the war machine? No worries, they had them well-greased. By noon, we were all hauled away, and they were back to inducting draftees into the Army with no sign that anything had happened.
I’d never been in a paddy wagon, the “Black Maria” van the cops use to transport prisoners. But as you know, I’m always up for new experiences. The main thing I remember about it was that it smelled like vomit, no surprise there; it served as the rolling drunk tank most nights of the week. Given a choice, I’d advise taking alternate transportation. They hauled us away to the Justice Center by the packed van load.
We were put in a big cell. No windows, kind of dark. We waited for hours and hours. Waiting bothered some people a lot; they walked and paced, rattled the bars. I’d been locked in rooms like that before in the nuthouse, so I knew waiting of old, waiting was a good friend of mine. I could wait with the best of them. One by one, people left the room to go before the Judge. None came back. We had no idea of our fate.
When my name was finally called, after the darkness of the holding cell, the courtroom was blindingly bright. I blinked and looked around. The Judge was on a high dais; I had to look way up to him. He said, “You are charged with Disturbing the Peace. How do you plead?” Like all of us, I plead guilty to Disturbing the War. The Judge looked just like a frog, puffed up, obviously frustrated by the unending long line of people waiting to come before him and mock his court. He sentenced me to twenty days like everyone else before me, and they started to take me … wait! say what? Twenty days?
Twenty days? We’d figured on getting five days like the last bunch … and since that day was December 13th, that meant we wouldn’t see freedom until the second of January. We’d miss both Christmas and New Year. Pinche cabrón, I hadn’t planned on that, but there it was. My choices were either to dig it or bitch about it, and besides, no sacrifice was too great because we were making such a difference. It just made us more noble. Plus any mathematician could tell you, if we stayed in twenty days we’d make four times the difference that the folks made who stayed five days … of course, that had been zero difference, but we were comforted by the thought that we’d do four times as much.
So I reset my mental retirement clock; my next retirement wouldn’t be in time for Christmas, no, no. I reset for twenty days. No problem, I’d done months inside, I could do twenty days “standing on my head” as they say.
They took us, busload by busload, out to Santa Rita Prison Farm. They had two big connected barracks set aside for us, likely to avoid trouble with the cons. Or maybe to keep us from talking to them about sit-ins, I don’t know. I believe they’ve torn those barracks down since and built something else. We were over 100 guys, including David Harris, the founder of The Resistance. The much smaller number of women went elsewhere.
Being locked up this time wasn’t too bad. I was in a big barracks surrounded by like-minded friends. And best of all, I never once woke up lashed down to a bed, as had happened before several times, and that’s always a huge plus in my world. We talked story and compared lies.
The best day in jail for all of us was Christmas, but not for the usual reason. I woke up and my friend Rodney said, “Hey, check this out!”, with a big grin. He held out a box and told me to look inside. Damn, it was a treasure chest!
What happened was that some guys from the San Jose Resistance had broken into the jail late Christmas eve. That’s right, not out of the jail, but into the jail, like some lifer’s fantasy of Santa Claus for cons. They cut through the outer wire, came across an open area dodging the searchlights, cut through another fence around the barracks area, made it to our barracks, cut through the wire around our barracks, and came right inside.
Zowie. Tip of the Hat.
I talked later to one of the San Jose guys who had done it. He said going that direction was much easier than the alternative because they’re never looking for people breaking into jail. He tried to downplay the whole thing, but I was still very impressed because even if getting in was easier, the guys still had to get back out again … which took some serious stones. I told him what a great gift it had been and what a difference it had made.
In any case, I woke up Christmas morning, and Rodney said that the San Jose guys had awakened him about 2 AM. They had brought in boxes and boxes of cookies, along with several cigarette packs full of joints. Damnbetcha, regular cigarette packets full of neatly-rolled cigarettes of the mystery herb of the ancient Hindus, the eponymous “Indian Hemp”. Plus, there were a few tabs of blotter acid (LSD).
Of course, at that time marijuana and LSD were very illegal, particularly in jail, duh.
But we were in a funny place. Our barracks were the last two in a long row of similar barracks. There was only one way to get to us. It was a long path visible all along its way from the main street to us, and it had four locked gates with long walks in between. So they couldn’t rush us or do anything fast, it took them a couple minutes from when they appeared at the end of the row, out at the far end of the path with four locked gates, to the time when they arrived at the barracks after they had walked and unlocked and relocked and walked and …
So we made no attempt to hide the dope. Instead, we distributed all the joints as fairly as possible, then we all went outside to the veranda. We all lit up at once and stood around sharing joints and eating cookies. We knew that we’d have plenty of time to laugh at the guards if they tried to stop us, and that the cookies and joints would be long gone by the time they got there. The guards did finally show up, late to the party as usual, the weed and the cookies were gone, the acid well hidden. We razzed them, told them they’d missed the party, if only they’d come half an hour earlier we’d have given them cookies and offered them a joint … somehow they didn’t see the humor in it. They ran us all back inside, and lectured us, and searched the veranda area, and then ran us all outside again, and shook down the whole barracks, and found nothing …
The best story of the whole Santa Rita farce, though, happened to one of my friends. He was put in solitary confinement for fighting, not his fault, somehow he’d ended up in a regular cell and his cellmate had attacked him. We smuggled in messages to him, letting him know he wasn’t forgotten.
After Christmas, through our contacts in the joint, we were able to smuggle him one of the tabs of blotter acid that the San Jose guys had brought in. My friend figured, hey, solitary confinement is the best place in the world to drop acid, nobody can mess with me. What are they gonna do … throw me in solitary?
He liked to meditate, that’s what he’d been doing in solitary the whole time. So he took the LSD and figured he’d spend his time doing some really intense meditation. Sat down on the floor, crossed his legs, and pretty soon he was soaring.
Just as the main rush was starting to come on to him, and the cell walls were starting to melt, and the paisley colors were starting to appear on the backs of his hands, he had the very realistic hallucination that his cell door was opening. Of course, being on acid, from the time he first hallucinated hearing the aliens coming towards his door to the time he hallucinated the door finally opening was something like five or six weeks … at least it sure seemed that long, but it was hard to tell, there was that whooshy-whooshy noise that kept coming and going that distorted time too.
It seemed to him in his elevated state that two aliens came in, they looked kinda like guards, he said, but you could tell the difference — he knew they weren’t guards. They said they had a directive from the home planet or something; their words kept echoing and bouncing around his head, or maybe it was just the echoes in the cell, but they were very hard to understand. They said to come with them, so he followed them meekly, wondering vaguely, where were the aliens taking him?
But he didn’t wonder long, because the prison walls of the corridor were so interesting. How come he’d never noticed before that prison walls flex slightly inward and outward when you breathe? He tried to tell the aliens about his discovery, but they told him to shut up.
The faces of the aliens kept changing and melting, but he said he wasn’t afraid; he could tell they were friendly. At one point, the aliens lost the form of guards and then assumed the form of prison officials standing behind a counter. They put a paper bag on the counter and had him sign some papers. One of the alien official people talked to him. He couldn’t hear him at all, but there were little cartoon balloons over the alien’s head. He tried to read them, but they were hard to follow. They said something about how the warden was letting him out two days early because my friend was such a wonderful person, or that he got extra credit for meditating while in the hole, or something; he was never clear on that part, but the aliens walked him right out of the front gate of the prison and left him there. He said he thought they had some power over the guards to let him go.
So before he knew it, there he was in front of the prison farm, let out two days early because of getting credit he didn’t know about for good behavior, all alone, peaking on acid, holding a paper bag with all his possessions, and gazing at the world in total wonder as the miraculous sun shone, and the grass grew, and he was free, free, free! He sat down in the grass right there in front of the Santa Rita prison farm and started talking to the grass, and in a while, the grass grew right through him, he could hear the grass taking over his body, and he became just another part of the very grassiness of the world … and after while he fell asleep.
In the morning, he woke up next to the paper bag containing his wallet and his possessions and didn’t know where he was. He sat up, looked around, saw he was outside the prison, and the memories of the acid trip and his miraculous escape and the aliens came back to him. He got up, walked to the road, and hitchhiked back to Santa Cruz.
And ever after that, he was convinced that LSD could do anything, melt steel bars, open jail doors, and nothing we could say about time off for good behavior would ever convince him differently. The belief never seemed to do him any harm, he never tried to fly off of buildings on acid or anything stupid. He just had an unshakeable faith that everything would turn out right for him … and as is sometimes the case for folks who believe that, for him it always did. Go figure, he was the only one of us who got out in time to celebrate New Year’s Eve.
They let the rest of us out the day after New Years, a cold windy day. The year had turned while we were away, we’d given stopping the War our best shot, and the War didn’t seem to notice at all. We’d missed Christmas. We’d missed the New Year’s party. We’d even missed our fifteen minutes of fame, we were in the slam the next day when the newspapers hit the streets … and by the time we were let out, after twenty days, the world had totally forgotten the sit-in, the story was dead on arrival …
“Oh, you were in a sit-in? I didn’t realize there had been one. Was it exciting?”
On that last day, we went through the standard drill, lines for this, sign here, lines for that, initial the form, put our civilian clothes back on, they handed us our wallets and belts and out the door with you, boyo.
Two of my three girlfriends picked me and a couple of other Santa Cruz Resistance guys up outside the jail, and we all went back to Santa Cruz to plan the next step in the noble fight against the war. One thing was clear, though.
Throwing my skinny okole in jail, whether they did it or I did it to myself, didn’t seem to change the war one bit. I’m a slow learner sometimes … but I never tried that brilliant plan again.
w.
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It may be hard for you to understand how much damage you did. How many people suffered at the hands of your ideas about “Peace”. You created the boat people. Let’s see… How many people did your actions lead to the death of
Few vietnamese were dying right before the US withdrawal. Only 25000 died in the year before the American withdrawal.
155K were killed in the final NVA offensive.
200K died in “reeducation camps”
50K died in forced labor camps.
400K boat people died escaping.
30k+ suicides in the aftermath.
If you count all the deaths between the American withdrawal in 1974 and the eventual stabilization in 1987, around 2.4 million died and 2.1 million fled their country.
The implementation of communist ideals led to famine that killed several million more in the next decade.
The American withdrawal destabilized the whole region. 3 million Cambodians died subsequently and 100K Hmong died in Laos.
Yes, unrepentant Willis. This blood is on your hands. If you had let the military stabilize the south, you would have seen Korea 2 at worst. But you wanted to protest something. You wanted peace and love for yourself.
And death for millions of others.
Final point in this post.
Enough of this myth of an undefeatable enemy. There is no such thing. No matter how they are motivated or how they are structured, they are defeatable. Any military man will tell you that. It is a question of how and at what cost and for how long.
How long will the myth that Afghanistan has never been defeated last? Or that Vietnam was undefeatable. Tell the Siamese that!
Every part and country in the world has been defeated in war. If you want to argue that the presence of resistance means the country is not defeated, then I guess the French have never been defeated.
Willis,
Stick to stuff you know. Your lack of shame for your role in the killing of millions is typical of your self-centered generation. Claiming to not have anything to do with the high divorce rates that folllowed. The latch key kids.
It is nonsense. Your thinking is EXACTLY what led to these things. Worse yet, you want credit for a civil rights movement that began in the 1600’s and is ongoing today. And for a women’s rights movement that has gone on for at least 100 years. You think somehow YOUR generation made that better?
It was your parents making and passing those laws. It was your parents (The greatest generation) who were doing what was right. YOU were smoking pot and dropping acid and holding up random signs.
It is BS to avoid the problems caused by people around your age (since you hate the word generation). You have created a litany of problems while doing nothing to contribute to society. And now, you will suck us dry in your old age by stealing money from your grandchildren to fund your social security and medical costs.
Thanks.
Peace, man.
Some have mentioned the ascendancy to power in the US of those who were the apparent fifth column of the Communists, on the TV within our own living rooms and on our campuses. Such things are seldom mentioned in public. Why is that? Is “Communist” just a word which is sooo 1969?
Greg House says: February 26, 2013 at 9:10 pm
….Really, America occupied South Vietnam? …
Depends where and who you were. If you were a bar owner or a hooker in Vietnam, or to be fairer, ARVN, or a merchant/supplier to the military, the Americans were your friends.
If you were a poor bloody villager 15 minutes helicopter flight from a Saigon airbase in a free fire zone, you just wanted everyone with a gun to get the hell out of the place and leave you alone.
Don’t make the mistake of thinking the USA were sitting in Saigon and flying up to fight a war at the 17th parallel – they were fighting in all the areas of the south, divided into different military zones, all with their own contact rules which even the military could barely understand. The poor bloody villager usually had less idea when he was in a free fire zone and when he was not.
Sure the USA could have won the war … politics (especially at home … and those were the guys Willis was protesting against) were the major issue. And the international politics more so – China was morbidly afraid of having US forces on their doorstep (Thanks, General MacArthur, ya maniacal pumped up idiot) … it would have been a nice big war if that was what you wanted, Korea bears witness to that.
With the great wisdom of hindsight, No, they should not have been there at all, and one helluva lot less people would have died.
That blood is not on the hands of Willis’ generation, and anyone who says it so is indoctrinated beyond all comprehension.
Another thought:
That generation were protesting against a war in the way it was being fought at the time, not against Bill Curry’s ‘idealized war which really should have been fought, and anyway then we would’ve won for sure’.
And they protested rightfully – it was just an unsustainable meat-grinder for the young, with no endpoint strategy. Absolutely abysmal decision making by the leadership and the high command at every level going in, and absolute procrastination and avoidance of committed decision making all the way through. Then not even a decision at the end, just a brush of the hands and a walk away.
Some History:
Jack Kerouc was born in 1922, so in his mid 40s in the late 60s – surely a member of the greatest generation. Ginsberg; born in 1926.
Recreational drug usage:
Cocaine:
Amphetamines:
Thoughts on ‘the generational blame game’:
Born in the 1900’s generation – sent off to WW1 – to be slaughtered in the trenchs by incompetent generals ; the fault of the preceding generations no doubt.
Born in the 1920s, young years in the great depression, then off to WWII; undoubtedly the fault of preceding generations.
Born in the 1930’s, you are growing up with all the deprivations of WWII; spend your 20’s under the threat of the cold war; the fault of the previous generations. S
Born in the 1940’s the cold war is in full swing. Kids re being taught at school to dive under desks to survive a nuclear blast (yeah, that was going to help, and no-one was drilling the factory workers, did they not matter, or ah! This was indoctrination at its finest. More so when you find out Truman, the CIA and senior US military knew damn well Stalin had about two bombs and few missiles, and later Kruschev a creaking military machine … but with inflation, lack of work, labour conflicts and housing shortages any distraction was a welcome thing. Truman did some grat things too, but his government also came under some severe corruption accusations. And yep, you are heading off to a vaguely defined war in SE Asia; Fault: – the previous generations.
Born in the 50s’s – Growing up with a cold war and Korea … fault: Preceeding generations.
Born in the 60’s – Wall to wall hippies and marijuana, you sure as hell don’t wanna be like that; fault: preceding generation.
Etc etc … and so now we have a generation coming into leadership roles who blame everything that happened in their youth on the previous generation and everything that is happening now on the terrible influences of the previous generation.
They think they are the only generation to be affected by events good and bad preceding their arrival. No-one else ever had it so tough. They shall make no errors of judgments, nor be at any fault, for if they are it shall be deemed the fault of others.
They shall name themselves “The Blameless Generation”.
@ur momisugly Mark Bofill. Feb 28th 2013 at 8.28 pm.
You don’t seem to have grasped the substance of the comments that you refer to, whether they are by Vietnam War era people who take issue with Willis’s CURRENT position on the war, or of others whose comments on the thinking and decisions of that time also extend to the CURRENT CONSEQUENCES of that.
Far from having the nature of suggesting that the comments come from those who have sprung fully formed into maturity – a very very weird proposition, or inversion, from anyone inclined to identify with the glory days of ’68 as you seem to be – virtually all the comments you refer to show very clearly that they understand the process of maturation. Do you?
It is difficult for me to understand how you could be so obtuse, so I must accept your proffered possibility that you are, in fact, an idiot.
@ur momisugly Philemon Feb 26th 2013 5.48 pm.
Narcissism……psychological defence mechanism…..other……other….
As you like.
Whatever it is, it is not based on the reality presented to him. And it is not useful to anyone else and shows no regard for others at all.
Luther Wu, jc, Denswingo, Bill Curry, Greg House, others.
On the anti war unAmerican ones, the mad dog bombing SDS William Ayers types, lust to be a go along traitors like John Kerry, the commie underground in the media, full committed commies in the PHD University crowd all of them stand guilty before the truth of history.
Now they doth protest to much and seek to wash the blood stains off their hands by a re-write of history that work is evidenced herein. Yes their work product now sits in the White House, with a make up built upon the codes of ones like Al Gore, Bill Clinton and his wife who made him, John Kerry and to many to list here.
Desperate to avoid the judgment of truth they misdirect and reach back into time to put up false road signs to send truth seekers from later times down the wrong trails.
To admit to the sin is not want they can or will do.
God has his problem of his judgment. If he forgives them on the grounds they did not know enough to know better, that is the universe of Gods.
For me and millions of others, we and history know. As of now that is all we have.
Thanks to all who stood the ground, honor those who sent their souls to God in the fight aginst the evil in those jungles, often alone, badly hurt and yet still fighting. So must we as we do what we can to make sure the real history gets written.
To those such as Bill Curry who would write their own version of history, I recommend reading a little history: This is a good start; “The Wrong War. Why We Lost in Vietnam.” By JEFFREY RECORD Naval Institute Press.
And a point. Primarily it was a political war, more about internal US politics, but, all the political and military decisions (largely wrong) were made by “the greatest generation”. Bill Curry absolves them and puts the blame only on the baby boomers, whilst now allocating all blame for all current events only on the preceding generation. Illogical hypocrisy in spades.
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/r/record-war.html
Mainly it was political but were the generals were against the war?
Simply a communist war?
A communist war fully backed by the Russians and the Chinese?
Could’ve won the war?
With conscript forces on one year rotational deployments?
Did you ever see a better way to not win a war? 12 month rotational deployments? After all military experience which already existed about how long a unit can be effective in combat, what time and loss thresholds must be points to pull them out and rebuild them as a functioning unit again? Dropping kids into a war in the middle of a unit half full of people days off going home and often with no regard for anything except surviving those few days?
Tell me; was that rubbish a military or a political decision? Sure as hell anyone would be sensible protesting about being drafted into that war.
jc says:
February 27, 2013 at 6:07 am
@ur momisugly Mark Bofill. Feb 28th 2013 at 8.28 pm.
You don’t seem to have grasped the substance of the comments that you refer to, whether they are by Vietnam War era people who take issue with Willis’s CURRENT position on the war, or of others whose comments on the thinking and decisions of that time also extend to the CURRENT CONSEQUENCES of that.
Far from having the nature of suggesting that the comments come from those who have sprung fully formed into maturity – a very very weird proposition, or inversion, from anyone inclined to identify with the glory days of ’68 as you seem to be – virtually all the comments you refer to show very clearly that they understand the process of maturation. Do you?
It is difficult for me to understand how you could be so obtuse, so I must accept your proffered possibility that you are, in fact, an idiot.
—–
You are quite correct in suggesting that I have not grasped the substance of the comments of the posters who have been attacking Willis. If I may quote you,
conveys your contempt and very little else. I have no interest in wading through your emotional tirade in search of solid content. If you would like for your argument to be examined on the basis of factual merit, perhaps you should consider posting in a more appropriate style.
Your suggestion that I seem to be inclined to identify with ‘the glory days of 1968’ are without basis and are incorrect. I have no use for and in general very little respect for hippies. However, in the face of your contempt and personal attacks, I can honestly say at this moment I wish I did JC. I don’t care enough about the discussion to try to figure out where you are coming from, but based on a quick glance at your tactics, I’m sure I’d end up disagreeing with you.
I’m glad you took advantage of my idiomatic expression intended to express my acknowledgement of the possibility that I was making an error as an opportunity to indulge in an ad hominem attack, as this underscores my point.
fobdangerclose says: February 27, 2013 at 7:50 am
“….Thanks to all who stood the ground, honor those who sent their souls to God in the fight aginst the evil in those jungles, often alone, badly hurt and yet still fighting. …”
Well said fob…. no doubt you mean to include these poor souls:
NVA/VC KIA 1,100,000
NVA/VC WIA 600,000
http://www.rjsmith.com/kia_tbl.html
Respect and thanks are deserved by all men who die, or who survive serving their country. Even if their leaders are wrong.
@ur momisugly Bill Curry. Various posts.
There is an impressive clarity to your passionate convictions based on your own life observations and experiences.
As I am pretty confident you know, you are unlikely to get a frank response that gives any meaningful legitimacy to your position or perspective.
Whilst Willis at any convenient moment claims only to represent himself, but has lived according to a creed that was archetypical of ’68 and claims it as his own, and maintains attitudes that only ever had currency to someone of that period, he has asserted previously in this post that he represents 21st Century Man, and any challenge to his perspective is in effect by definition antediluvian – made by a “dinosaur”.
Bizarre, preposterous – unnatural even – but made with a sense of complete certainty that this in itself constitutes a satisfactory response. This, of course, is a direct descendant, varied by words only, to the sum total for justification of anything that couldn’t easily be validated in the ’60’s – that someone should “get with it”. Such is the sophistication of the ’60’s mental landscape.
Nothings changed. If someone stands as an impediment to any desired course of action, or any sense of moral and cultural superiority, that is the attitude.
Anyone much younger, including their children, who was not “there” is automatically “not with it”, and will be dealt with only to the degree that this is acknowledged implicitly or explicitly, and the completeness of their outlook validated and accepted.
This has been applied to everything, as you have obviously been in a position to know first hand. Children, social relationships, the lot.
Reality as applied to others has never mattered, and any that touches themselves will be modified to suit: 50 was the new 40; 60 the new 50 – 30 was probably the new 20.
I don’t think they will be able to pull off the almost on us 70 is the new 60.
You understand in a way they are not capable of, that they invented nothing of the “progressive” elements that had been developing based on values they repudiated, and that, in fact these came to a full stop with their ascendancy.
They will never admit this since their fine opinion of themselves is beyond questioning.
It is a truly extraordinary thing that collectively, or at least those who reflect those times best, will be the first generation in history to grow old and die having not grown wise. The opposite will be true, they will demonstrate greater and greater demands typical of an infant, and expect the same level of attention. They are not prepared for death of old age having never properly moved into adulthood.
To indulge them in this will only continue to compound the damage and should not occur.
Your specific comments about the military, demonstrating as they do an exponentially greater experience and knowledge than Willis’s, will cut no ice. Even if acknowledged fully and simply – “I was wrong”- which I would not hold my breath for, “the military” of real legitimacy will always be that experienced or judged by him then.
Willis’s admonition to enter the conversation in “the manner of a gentleman” is standard fare in deprecation and control.
Your original post was a passionate denunciation yet was intelligent, coherent, controlled, and not impolite.
Willis himself frequently cuts loose on this site in a much less structured and more personally virulent manner. In your post there was plenty to respond to, in his outbursts, nothing. But that is how it should be apparently.
The translation of your viewpoint as being inherently based on you having “personal issues” is utterly typical and serves, intentionally, to render the substance of any uncomfortable truth moot. This trashing of legitimacy of human responses that are unwelcome has had and continues to have a degrading effect on life itself, as is illustrated by the drugging of children whose behavior is “inconvenient”.
People devoid of values cannot recognize them in others and cannot, without undermining themselves, see any legitimacy in translating the world with reference to them.
They have been able to live without values because the scaffolding of civilization has provided a structure for them to hang off. Now that the scaffolding is collapsing under their weight, their only concern will be to ensure it lasts long enough in the manner that it effects them, to see them out.
After that, not their problem.
And yes it is still about them and always will be if they can help it.
jc says: February 25, 2013 at 9:16 am (etc etc)
[…. a lot…]
I’d like to respond to jc, I think he is anti-everything, but I can’t understand what he is getting at; anyone out there want to chance a succinct summary? Pro Vietnam War? Anti hippie? Jealous of Willis’ early love life? Did he swallow a thesaurus?
markx links to this statement:
The profound misjudgment that propelled the United States into the Vietnam War…
President Kennedy used advisors, but did not send half a million troops into Viet Nam. That was President Johnson.
Johnson rejected outright the advice of his Joint Chiefs of Staff, who recommended mining Haiphong harbor, using B-52’s to bomb Hanoi, and destroying the railroad bridges connecting China with North Viet Nam. [At that time the North lacked an anti-aircraft defense that could a reach B-52’s altitude.] The pressure on the North would have been immense, allowing the South to build up it’s military. U.S. troops would not have been used extensively, and South Vietnamese soldiers were fully capable of dealing with the local Viet Cong.
Instead, Johnson played armchair general, and unilaterally decided to ramp up U.S. ground troops to a half million. By the time President Nixon used B-52’s, the North had SAM misiles. But the effectiveness of the B-52 was demonstrated: when the bombing began, the North immediately began negotiating in earnest, instead of arguing over the placement of flags on the negotiating table, as they had done for many months. No regime can withstand its civilian population if it turns on them. The bombing campaign got immediate results. Had it been used in the beginning as the military recommended, the widespread use of American soldiers would have been unnecessary. History would have been written differently.
Johnson was an incompetent disaster. He believed that since he was successful as a politician, he would be successful in other arenas. Johnson disregarded the sound advice of the military, believing that he knew better how to prosecute a war. History has been far too kind to him.
@ur momisugly Mark Bofill. Feb 27th 2013. at 8.44 am
Your original post, as you stated honestly at the outset, was for the express intention of offering moral support to Willis.
Him Good. Others Bad.
You offered absolutely nothing in support of this judgement except that those taking issue with him were plainly possessed of an inflated conception of themselves or were “vicious hypocrites”.
No examples. Nothing.
This was a purely partisan association you volunteered and decided to throw in a couple of justifications based on nothing to support it.
To make this comment you presumably read through both Willis’s comments and others. Alternatively you just made it up out of thin air.
I pointed out a simple fact: that many if not most comments you classified as being condemnation of youthful decisions were not that at all. A point you still refuse to address.
As to highlighting my comment to Willis as being typical of my “tactics” as you call them, I suppose i am expected to believe that you happened upon this particular comment and have no idea of what it referred to through this post. I don’t. That comment was a summation as you well know.
You have abjured from actually finding out as though to do so would taint you. It would be futile to suggest you might, since I expect, if you have actually read enough posts to have formed an opinion for your original post, you have already done so. If you have or did you will find the basis for my conclusions.
Tactics indeed.
markx etal defenders of the Russians, ones of China, and the blood thirsty commie leaders of North Vietnam,
It is odd that the anti war co-commies of the U.S. anti war ones never list Ho Chi Mein as the evil mad dog commie killer he and Mao in fact were.
Markx, the list you blame me for, yes and proud of it, no guilt, would do it over only more.
I am on the anti war co-commie list from 1966 to this hour. I am proud of it, do not want off their list. Met them at LAX Los Angless, Feb. 1970, they threw human feeces at U.S. called us baby killers. Not one NVA I shot and killed was a baby, each of them had a gun, ammo, and lust for my death and all those in my unit.
Yes, I do take credit for a very large percentage of the KIA of the NVA out in Laos on the trails of death Ho Chie Mien filled up daily with glee and mad commie lust for his brand of re-distribution of wealth.
It is odd that Russian commie mad dog commies to not get the same blame as American fighting men as it was Russian advisors, Russian guns, Russian ammo, Russian aid that made Ho Chie Mein possible.
I have never heard or seen one of these American anti Vietnam War crowd throwing feeces at a Russian leader, or a North Vietnam leader, or a leader from China.
Odd to say the least.
Bill Curry says:
February 26, 2013 at 10:25 pm
Agreed … and I didn’t mean the Vietnamese were undefeatable under any imaginable set of circumstances, only that there was no way that the US, France, Japan, or China would defeat them … but you knew that.
So far, we’re up to centuries and counting, and we don’t know how long it’ll last … but the Americans are packing up and leaving … and? So what?
Vietnam first defeated China, then France, then Japan, then France again, then the US. You’re right, nothing lasts forever … but they were willing, after 45 years of constant war, to fight us until we too gave up and left …
So I’m not clear what your point is here. They were defeatable, anyone is … but not by us. We didn’t have the stomach for it, and after 45 years of war, they were happy to continue until we left.
So they certainly may not have been undefeatable … but they certainly left the battlefield after nearly sixty years of war having defeated four large, rich, industrialized nations …
And despite that, you think we should have continued the war, it seems, and thus you accuse me of causing “the killing of millions” for wanting to stop the war … millions are dying, I want to stop the unwinnable war, you want to continue the killing … …
… and I’m the bad guy? I’m responsible for the deaths?
My friend, I can’t tell you how backwards your theory is.
By “defeated” I mean they kicked our asses out of the country like they did the rest … I call that “defeated”, what do you mean by it?
PS—Costa Rica hasn’t ever been defeated in war. Doesn’t even have an army now, fought one tiny war with Nicaragua, never defeated … and one black swan makes all your white swans useless …
1. I had no role in “the killing of millions”, I fought to stop that killing.
2. I had nothing to do with the divorce rate, are you mad? I’m not divorced, nor are most of my friends.
3. Latch key kids? Say what? I’ve done right by my kids.
I fear that you are just lashing out in pain. Obviously, you or someone close to you was mistreated as a child … but your incessant claim that I’m the one to blame for your pain is, well, ludicrous.
Aaaah, wrong thinking. I knew I was guilty of thoughtcrimes, Winston, where’s the cage with the rats been since 1984, we need it know?
I don’t want “credit” for those, that’s your sick fantasy. My friends, both women friends and black friends, thanked me for helping them advance the civil rights and women’s movements, that’s all. I didn’t claim to start them, thats your twisted ideation at work.
Why did they thank me? Because I did help them advance the work. That seems to drive you ’round the twist, Bill. I’m not sure why.
Do you actually think in caricatures like that, generations and all? I did what I did, and I helped change the laws. I know that because unlike you, I was there, and you’re just making things up …
What is BS is to blame all the problems of the world, or of the US, on me, or on any “generation”. Every generation has done good things and bad things. Your obsession with the “generation” is just a way for you to avoid personal responsibility.
If you believe that all of the bad things come from someone else or from their generation, you commit two errors.
First, you blame people for things in which they had no responsibility. I am not responsible for say Charles Manson any more than you are responsible for Ted Bundy, despite the timing …
And second, you avoid taking responsibility for your own life, preferring to say that other people are responsible for your pain. It’s clear that you are desperately looking for someone to blame, Bill … but I have not “created a litany of problems while doing nothing to contribute to society.”
That’s your sick fantasy about my life, Bill. I’m sure people have done that, but …
I’M NOT THAT MAN.
Why do you have to go out of your way to close in such an ugly, mean-spirited fashion, Bill? It only makes you look both worse off than you are … what’s the point?
Look, I don’t think you’re a bad guy. But blaming other people for your own personal pain is no way to go through life, my friend. Your constant obsession with “abandonment” and “divorce” are clear signs that your life has not been an easy one …
… but that has nothing to do with me, BIll, nothing at all. You’ve set your sights on the wrong man, I’m not the cause of your clearly evident pain.
w.
D.B. Stealey says: February 27, 2013 at 9:22 am
Johnson was an incompetent disaster. He believed that since he was successful as a politician, he would be successful in other arenas. Johnson disregarded the sound advice of the military, believing that he knew better how to prosecute a war. History has been far too kind to him.
Agree entirely on Johnson … and he was voted in on the understanding he would not send kids to war.
True on the lack of commitment too… spoke to a guy the other day who said was shipboard late in the war on a tanker filling up with aviation fuel in Singapore, destination Saigon. Next in line was a Russian tanker, destination Hanoi.
But again, there weren’t hippies making these decisions, this was ‘the greatest generation’ at work.
Since 9/11, I’ve actually had people thank me for my service, all of those years ago.
I didn’t see anyone welcome or acknowledge any of us troops until after 9/11, so all of you extra- special patriots (now), where were you then?
I don’t see a single one of Willis’ detractors making as much of an impact against the forces trying to screw us all through the AGW meme as Willis does.
Some are even trying to lambast all of us from that time- and that line of reasoning is shallow and just plain dumb.
Do you really believe yourselves capable of seeing clearly from a distance of decades?
All of this talk of those times has stirred up things normally best avoided… too late- I shouldn’t have gotten so drunk last night. If you think I’m cranky now, just keep it up and see what happens.
Ok, ok, I just read Willis’ latest treatise in this thread, so I take it all back…
IT”S ALL WILLIS’ FAULT!!!
lol
@ur momisugly markx Feb 27th 2013. 8.59 am
I have read through your previous contributions, and I accept as true that you don’t understand what I am “getting at” as you call it.
I am a bit surprised by that since I don’t think my points are very obscure.
There’s nothing I can do about that, but I can at least alleviate some of your bewilderment shown in the questions posed desperately seeking a category for reassurance.
I am not pro Vietnam War, nor am I anti – hippy, in fact in itself I have no particular interest in that time or those manifestations of it. As to Willis’s love life, I have no interest at all, as anecdote of then or reality of now, whatever that might be.
My appetite for a thesaurus is not as strong as you imagine.
I gather from this last, and your apparent prostation in the face of my output {(etc etc) and [a lot…]} that there is something impenetrable about my comments that relates to the expression and the volume of them. I am a little surprised by the latter since you yourself have been posting a vast amount of no doubt worthy material, but I suppose some have more of greater legitimacy to say.
If i wasn’t convinced of your sincerity in all this, I might wonder whether your post was intended to call up a mob to deal with something you didn’t like but were incapable of handling yourself. Thankfully this site is not the sort of place where such people might be encountered.
jc says:
February 27, 2013 at 9:37 am
@ur momisugly Mark Bofill. Feb 27th 2013. at 8.44 am
Your original post, as you stated honestly at the outset, was for the express intention of offering moral support to Willis.
Him Good. Others Bad.
You offered absolutely nothing in support of this judgement except that those taking issue with him were plainly possessed of an inflated conception of themselves or were “vicious hypocrites”.
No examples. Nothing.
This was a purely partisan association you volunteered and decided to throw in a couple of justifications based on nothing to support it.
To make this comment you presumably read through both Willis’s comments and others. Alternatively you just made it up out of thin air.
I pointed out a simple fact: that many if not most comments you classified as being condemnation of youthful decisions were not that at all. A point you still refuse to address.
As to highlighting my comment to Willis as being typical of my “tactics” as you call them, I suppose i am expected to believe that you happened upon this particular comment and have no idea of what it referred to through this post. I don’t. That comment was a summation as you well know.
You have abjured from actually finding out as though to do so would taint you. It would be futile to suggest you might, since I expect, if you have actually read enough posts to have formed an opinion for your original post, you have already done so. If you have or did you will find the basis for my conclusions.
Tactics indeed.
——————————————–
jc –
There is some truth to what you say, and some rubbish. Let’s dispense with the garbage first. When you state I pointed out a simple fact: that many if not most comments you classified as being condemnation of youthful decisions were not that at all., it appears to be at odds with your earlier statements, I quote:
We could bicker about this and other items of small relevance (I suppose i am expected to believe that you happened upon this particular comment and have no idea of what it referred to through this post. I don’t. That comment was a summation as you well know., see no point in arguing this absurdity), but I’d prefer to get to the part you’re correct about.
Willis has established more than simple credibility in my eyes. He’s demonstrated moral character in his posts, in admitting errors when he was wrong, in attacking positions taken with dishonest intent, and in exhibiting sensitivity and judgment in responding to honest errors. He appears to do his homework, and makes a good honest case for whatever it is he’s talking about. I therefore do indeed assume a-priori that moral attacks against Willis are flawed. This credit only goes a certain short ways; if I caught Willis with his hand in the cookie jar or in bed with my wife it’d run out pretty darn quickly. In a similar vein, I have an expectation of the invalidity of the arguments of certain regular trolls that post here that predisposes me to examine what they are presenting in a more critical way. If this is partisan, OK; I’m partisan.
IF YOU ARE INTERESTED in communicating with people in a rational way, I once again suggest you mute down your ad-hom and accusatory tone. If your goal is merely to intimidate or bully people into accepting your assessment because they don’t wish to be embarrassed by giving you a chance at a clever ad-hom reparte or because they have no interest in subjecting themselves to ridicule, by all means continue. These are indeed blog tactics; I have used (and when appropriate continue to use) them myself, and they are not appropriate now.
jc says:
February 27, 2013 at 8:47 am
You say that I’ve I’ve “asserted previously in this post that I represent 21st Century Man”? Really? Let’s just do a fact check to see if you’re telling the truth here, jc … hang on …
OK, a search for “21st century man” in this thread reveals that the only person who has used that phrase has been you. I had no memory of using it, but I had to check.
As a result, your statement about my assertions is a BALD-FACED LIE, and you are a liar.
YOU asserted previously that I represented 21st Century Man, not me.
Not only that, but having used the exact phrase yourself, so that people were familiar with it and would remember it being used in the post, now you’re trying to claim that I was the one who said it, in the hope that people will vaguely remember you using it and falsely ascribe it to me …
Nice try. I don’t deal with liars, jc. We’re done here. You’re talking to the hand from here out. Dealing with liars has always been a loser for me, so I’ve given it up entirely.
And I advise others to avoid them as well, and despite the prohibition on Onanism, simply leave JC to play with himself. He has proven that he will lie about what you said, to achieve his own ends. I strongly advise not having any truck with that kind of action.
So, if any of you continue to answer him, please know that you are dealing with a dishonest man, a man who is quite willing to say things himself and then flat-out lie and claim that I said them … so do be careful, friends, I keep a hand on my wallet when dealing with folk like that …
w.
w.,
Does it follow in that case that Ho Chi Min was a liar, a dishonest man, a person who sent millions of his own people to die for his cause of redistribution of weath. Then after the fact use others of an even more evil commie kind to use blunt force to the back of millions of heads for the redistribution cause.
Was he out to achieve his own ends?
Earth First that group, the leaders therein, where did they get their guide lines?
Any of the 1960’s anti war types start that up, any in Greenpeace?