Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
I’ve written about my time in the US Army, and about spending time behind bars getting out of the Army, in my story called It’s Not About Me. In that story, I discussed a bit of my view on the Vietnam war, the view echoed by many who have studied it since—that it was the wrong war, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. My experience was that the Vietnam war damaged every single person it touched, on both sides of the Pacific, and more than anyone it damaged some of the veterans who’d actually done the fighting. I know that because I spent months in the nuthouse assisting the physically crippled and the memory damaged. My friends there were the shell-shocked refuse of the carnage. It’s not my wish to refight the war or what I did regarding the war, just to tell my story about it, so please, let’s not turn this into a referendum on some imaginary “right” response to the Vietnam War—there weren’t any of those, just levels of wrong responses, plus pain and suffering enough for all.
Christina Dorothea Dyer Greene, and looking at that lovely old granny, you’d never guess she’d once put a voodoo death curse on a middle-aged man … and he died within the week. Another story I should tell sometime.
A couple years after I got out of the nuthouse and the Army, I went to live with the Captain’s Daughter, my beloved grandmother we called “My-mummie” whom I’ve written about before. It was a great experience for me. It was after my grandfather’s death, and my oldest cousin was living there as well. She and I have always been close. We cooked dinner and washed and dried the dishes and kept up the grounds and did house maintenance and such for My-mummie. The best part was that I could hear her stories again (and some for the first time) as an adult and not as a seven-year-old kid. I lived with her about a year, it was fascinating, I’ll write more about her sometime.
After a while, though, I wanted my own place. I loved My-mummie, but eventually, I had to move out on my own. A friend of my cousin’s said she needed someone to caretake a tiny one-room cabin she owned near Santa Cruz, totally enclosed by a state forest. I said sure and moved out there. It was an enchanted place. It always reminded me of Snow White’s pad. It was quite close to Santa Cruz but totally hidden. You’d drive through the protected forest, and there was a little clearing with a little house in the sunlight, the famous “bee-loud glade”. I continued making and selling sandals.
This was also the first time I ever made money from my art. I mean as opposed to my music. I started making and selling mobiles. I made light fixtures that were mobiles, using glass, and candelabras, and railroad lanterns, and pieces of cut steel, and crystals, and found objects. They moved and spun, casting an ever-changing, entrancing light. They were beautiful, and they were easy to make and sell, people snapped them up as fast as I finished them, so I generally had a bit of money, not much, but enough.
Of course, the Vietnam War was still going on; it hadn’t stopped because I’d managed to get my invitation canceled. I met some people who were in a loose confederation called “The Resistance”. The Resistance was founded by David Harris, who was married to the singer Joan Baez at the time. Some of us Resistance guys rented a house just behind the Santa Cruz Boardwalk on Second Street. We called it the “Resistance Commune”. We were hippies, we were opposed to the Vietnam War. We believed in peace and love. Bored middle-aged housewives brought food to the house and gave money, so we’d be free to work to end the war. And we did work, we did what we could, and we worked hard at it.
It was a strange time. We believed in something vague called “The Revolution”. We weren’t sure what that was, but we knew we were at the forefront of it. It involved throwing out everything that our parents believed. That much was obvious from the terrible hole it left behind. Beyond that, we were making up the song as we were singing it.
It was also the time of “free love”. I later learned that (for me at least) love is rarely free, but we were young and didn’t know that yet. At the time I was sexually involved with three women. Not at the same instant or in the same bed, you understand, but at the same time. They all three lived in a commune called the “River Street House”. They all knew each other, they were good friends, they all knew about me, there were no secrets between us. None of us thought much about it, it went on for a couple months, it was great … well, it was actually fantastic until I came down with the clap, and I had to tell all three of them.
Gonorrhea. Ugly word, I know, and an ugly reality, but I have to be honest about the bad as well as the good. I’ve said I am telling my tale warts and all, and having the clap definitely qualifies as more than a wart in my world.
I got the usual symptom, a leaky faucet, went to the doctor, got tested, and I got the bad news. So I called the three lovely ladies all together and told them all at one time, so there was no misunderstanding and we could get it clear. I said that I had the clap and that I must have gotten it from one of them, because I hadn’t had sex with anyone else, and I was willing to swear to that.
Now, after I published my story about hopping freight trains, people wrote in the comments to say I should issue clear warnings in my stories, so fools don’t try to follow my path. They said I should do that to keep a bunch of maroons from cluttering up the rail yards with their corpses and body parts and drowning in the Kenai and the like trying to follow my lead. Seemed excessive to me, like the sign on my aluminum foil reflective car screen that keeps the sun off of the dashboard when I park, covering the front window entirely. The sign says, no bull, it says
“WARNING! Do not drive the car with this sunscreen in position”.
Really? We’ve fallen that far?
In any case, to keep folks from complaining about this story, here’s my Official Warning—kids, don’t try this one at home. Do whatever you have to do in order to avoid telling three women at the same time that one gave you gonorrhea and you might have given it to the other two. I assure you, Miss Manners classifies it as a major social blunder.
Plus it’s not an easy subject to bring up, regardless of how you lay the groundwork, and I’ll tell you, gonorrhea is a real bitch to just casually slip into a conversation without groundwork. Like “Oh, yeah, guess what, dearest ladies, funniest thing happened to me yesterday, I was passing by my doctor’s, and I thought I’d drop in, you’ll never believe what he told me …”
That wasn’t the hardest part, though. As uncomfortable and painful as it had been for me to tell the three of them that I’d gotten the clap from one of them and I might have passed it on, there was worse to come.
First, though, we all had to walk on eggshells around each other, no sex for anyone until they got their results back from the lab, from memory that took three-four days.
Now, for those men out there who have had the unfortunate luck to be falsely accused, and who have had to try to convince a furious woman of your actual innocence, that you have been true to her and only her, you have not been cheating on her, and that you are telling her the 100% facts of the case, I’m sure you all can testify how just how hard and painful that is …
Well, just be thankful that you have not had to try to convince three furious women, who have just gotten out of the car after driving back from the clinic together, three furious women who have been discussing your shortcomings and lack of honesty because all of their tests turned out negative. Consider trying to convince them that you have been true to them and only them, that you haven’t been unfaithful to the three of them in either thought or word or deed, and that you’re telling God’s own truth. I don’t recommend it for the weak of heart.
Of course, they didn’t believe a word of what I was saying; understandably, they had the medical proof. The three of them got in my face all at once, shouting, punching my shoulders … it was truly not a pretty picture, folks, your narrator did not appear in a good light at all. First, my faucet starts leaking, then my sacred word is being seriously questioned, and now I’m in the doghouse and getting thumped on by not just one but all three beautiful women that I care about … it was a very bad week for me.
Much battered in spirit, not to mention somewhat bruised about the upper torso, I went to the library and studied up on the tests they’d been given. As always, the science helps. It turned out that the test they used for men back then was pretty good, but in women, you got a false negative about one time in four. That is to say, for one woman in four who actually had gonorrhea, the test didn’t show it. I’d always been a good mathematician, I took out my pencil and figured that if there was one chance in four of a false positive for any one of them, there was an excellent chance that one or more of them had a bad test result.
So I went back and told that to the good ladies. They were skeptical, but they all went and got retested. It turned out that one of them actually did have the clap, so my honor was restored, I had been telling the truth. I really had been faithful to the three of them and the three of them alone just like I’d sworn to them, and the very best news was … I hadn’t given the disease to either of the other two. And in the end, they all told me they forgave me, although I’m still not clear what I’d done that needed forgiving. But I accepted it with an open heart anyhow, they were wonderful women … however, I digress, I’m just happy I was young after penicillin and before AIDS …
As part of our Resistance work, we arranged all kinds of protests against the war, against imperialism, against poverty. We thought of ourselves as Dadaist revolutionaries, though. I liked to carry random signs in the marches, signs advertising weird stuff, signs just with pictures, strange signs. On one march, I was face to face with the riot police, with everyone waving signs to end the Vietnam war, and yelling slogans. Everyone had their signs, “END THE WAR”, “END THE INVASION”, that kind of thing.
Me, I was in front, hollering at the cops, and I was waving a lovely international orange road sign with black letters I’d found mounted on a post along the protest route, and had brought with me … I was a bit unclear on the “let’s all protest something” concept, I guess, but I knew how to have fun. I used to say that a Revolution you couldn’t laugh at wasn’t worth having.

The Vietnam War went on and on. In December, The Resistance leaders, based in Palo Alto, arranged for the second big mass sit-in at the Alameda Induction Center. At the first Resistance sit-in, everyone had gotten arrested, it was all peaceful, and they all had to do five days at the Santa Rita prison farm. The papers picked it up, it was a one-day wonder, we were all abuzz about how the war machine was cracking and how the Resistance was famous and we were starting to win …
However, the first sit-in had had absolutely no larger effect of any kind that I could tell. After the one day of news, that was it; no follow-up articles, the entire sit-in and the arrests and the jail time just vanished, and the war rolled on without the slightest change.
So the decision was made to do the exact same thing again, another identical sit-in, same time, same place.
Hey, don’t look at me like that. They didn’t solicit my opinion, although at the time I might have agreed. I likely was dumb enough then to do something a second time expecting a different result. So the Santa Cruz Resistance Commune (those of us who could) went up to Oakland for a sit-in at the Army Induction Center to see if we could raise a public outcry and get arrested. “Clog up the gears of the war machine”, I believe was the catchphrase of the time.
I gotta confess, I wasn’t crazy about the whole idea. After spending a month or so locked up in the Navy nuthouse, and then five months behind bars in the Army nuthouse, I was kinda over the whole razor wire and cells and bars and guards experience—the thrill was gone. I’d done my time. But I went along. We were part of The Revolution, so no sacrifice was too great.
Our friends drove us up to Oakland early in the morning. We all got together around six AM, maybe 120 people or so, and we all sat down and blocked the doors of the Induction Center. It was funny, that’s exactly where I’d been inducted a couple of years before. I was one of the few guys in the crowd who’d actually been inside. I’d spent hours in the place.
A “sit-in” is a non-violent event. It’s also, for that very reason, boring as hell. First off, we figured they’d open at eight, but they didn’t even open until nine … so we sat around and told each other stories about how noble our cause was, and how wrong the pigs and the war merchants were, and how much difference we were making. Like I said … booooring.
Eventually, the cops came. The Oakland Police were practiced at the action by then; it wasn’t their first rodeo. They backed up the paddy wagon, the police prisoner van, right up to the mass of sitting people, and just started tossing us in the back. As one wagon got full and left, another pulled right in. It was assembly line arrests; Henry Ford would have been proud. We thought we’d clog up the gears of the war machine? No worries, they had them well-greased. By noon, we were all hauled away, and they were back to inducting draftees into the Army with no sign that anything had happened.
I’d never been in a paddy wagon, the “Black Maria” van the cops use to transport prisoners. But as you know, I’m always up for new experiences. The main thing I remember about it was that it smelled like vomit, no surprise there; it served as the rolling drunk tank most nights of the week. Given a choice, I’d advise taking alternate transportation. They hauled us away to the Justice Center by the packed van load.
We were put in a big cell. No windows, kind of dark. We waited for hours and hours. Waiting bothered some people a lot; they walked and paced, rattled the bars. I’d been locked in rooms like that before in the nuthouse, so I knew waiting of old, waiting was a good friend of mine. I could wait with the best of them. One by one, people left the room to go before the Judge. None came back. We had no idea of our fate.
When my name was finally called, after the darkness of the holding cell, the courtroom was blindingly bright. I blinked and looked around. The Judge was on a high dais; I had to look way up to him. He said, “You are charged with Disturbing the Peace. How do you plead?” Like all of us, I plead guilty to Disturbing the War. The Judge looked just like a frog, puffed up, obviously frustrated by the unending long line of people waiting to come before him and mock his court. He sentenced me to twenty days like everyone else before me, and they started to take me … wait! say what? Twenty days?
Twenty days? We’d figured on getting five days like the last bunch … and since that day was December 13th, that meant we wouldn’t see freedom until the second of January. We’d miss both Christmas and New Year. Pinche cabrón, I hadn’t planned on that, but there it was. My choices were either to dig it or bitch about it, and besides, no sacrifice was too great because we were making such a difference. It just made us more noble. Plus any mathematician could tell you, if we stayed in twenty days we’d make four times the difference that the folks made who stayed five days … of course, that had been zero difference, but we were comforted by the thought that we’d do four times as much.
So I reset my mental retirement clock; my next retirement wouldn’t be in time for Christmas, no, no. I reset for twenty days. No problem, I’d done months inside, I could do twenty days “standing on my head” as they say.
They took us, busload by busload, out to Santa Rita Prison Farm. They had two big connected barracks set aside for us, likely to avoid trouble with the cons. Or maybe to keep us from talking to them about sit-ins, I don’t know. I believe they’ve torn those barracks down since and built something else. We were over 100 guys, including David Harris, the founder of The Resistance. The much smaller number of women went elsewhere.
Being locked up this time wasn’t too bad. I was in a big barracks surrounded by like-minded friends. And best of all, I never once woke up lashed down to a bed, as had happened before several times, and that’s always a huge plus in my world. We talked story and compared lies.
The best day in jail for all of us was Christmas, but not for the usual reason. I woke up and my friend Rodney said, “Hey, check this out!”, with a big grin. He held out a box and told me to look inside. Damn, it was a treasure chest!
What happened was that some guys from the San Jose Resistance had broken into the jail late Christmas eve. That’s right, not out of the jail, but into the jail, like some lifer’s fantasy of Santa Claus for cons. They cut through the outer wire, came across an open area dodging the searchlights, cut through another fence around the barracks area, made it to our barracks, cut through the wire around our barracks, and came right inside.
Zowie. Tip of the Hat.
I talked later to one of the San Jose guys who had done it. He said going that direction was much easier than the alternative because they’re never looking for people breaking into jail. He tried to downplay the whole thing, but I was still very impressed because even if getting in was easier, the guys still had to get back out again … which took some serious stones. I told him what a great gift it had been and what a difference it had made.
In any case, I woke up Christmas morning, and Rodney said that the San Jose guys had awakened him about 2 AM. They had brought in boxes and boxes of cookies, along with several cigarette packs full of joints. Damnbetcha, regular cigarette packets full of neatly-rolled cigarettes of the mystery herb of the ancient Hindus, the eponymous “Indian Hemp”. Plus, there were a few tabs of blotter acid (LSD).
Of course, at that time marijuana and LSD were very illegal, particularly in jail, duh.
But we were in a funny place. Our barracks were the last two in a long row of similar barracks. There was only one way to get to us. It was a long path visible all along its way from the main street to us, and it had four locked gates with long walks in between. So they couldn’t rush us or do anything fast, it took them a couple minutes from when they appeared at the end of the row, out at the far end of the path with four locked gates, to the time when they arrived at the barracks after they had walked and unlocked and relocked and walked and …
So we made no attempt to hide the dope. Instead, we distributed all the joints as fairly as possible, then we all went outside to the veranda. We all lit up at once and stood around sharing joints and eating cookies. We knew that we’d have plenty of time to laugh at the guards if they tried to stop us, and that the cookies and joints would be long gone by the time they got there. The guards did finally show up, late to the party as usual, the weed and the cookies were gone, the acid well hidden. We razzed them, told them they’d missed the party, if only they’d come half an hour earlier we’d have given them cookies and offered them a joint … somehow they didn’t see the humor in it. They ran us all back inside, and lectured us, and searched the veranda area, and then ran us all outside again, and shook down the whole barracks, and found nothing …
The best story of the whole Santa Rita farce, though, happened to one of my friends. He was put in solitary confinement for fighting, not his fault, somehow he’d ended up in a regular cell and his cellmate had attacked him. We smuggled in messages to him, letting him know he wasn’t forgotten.
After Christmas, through our contacts in the joint, we were able to smuggle him one of the tabs of blotter acid that the San Jose guys had brought in. My friend figured, hey, solitary confinement is the best place in the world to drop acid, nobody can mess with me. What are they gonna do … throw me in solitary?
He liked to meditate, that’s what he’d been doing in solitary the whole time. So he took the LSD and figured he’d spend his time doing some really intense meditation. Sat down on the floor, crossed his legs, and pretty soon he was soaring.
Just as the main rush was starting to come on to him, and the cell walls were starting to melt, and the paisley colors were starting to appear on the backs of his hands, he had the very realistic hallucination that his cell door was opening. Of course, being on acid, from the time he first hallucinated hearing the aliens coming towards his door to the time he hallucinated the door finally opening was something like five or six weeks … at least it sure seemed that long, but it was hard to tell, there was that whooshy-whooshy noise that kept coming and going that distorted time too.
It seemed to him in his elevated state that two aliens came in, they looked kinda like guards, he said, but you could tell the difference — he knew they weren’t guards. They said they had a directive from the home planet or something; their words kept echoing and bouncing around his head, or maybe it was just the echoes in the cell, but they were very hard to understand. They said to come with them, so he followed them meekly, wondering vaguely, where were the aliens taking him?
But he didn’t wonder long, because the prison walls of the corridor were so interesting. How come he’d never noticed before that prison walls flex slightly inward and outward when you breathe? He tried to tell the aliens about his discovery, but they told him to shut up.
The faces of the aliens kept changing and melting, but he said he wasn’t afraid; he could tell they were friendly. At one point, the aliens lost the form of guards and then assumed the form of prison officials standing behind a counter. They put a paper bag on the counter and had him sign some papers. One of the alien official people talked to him. He couldn’t hear him at all, but there were little cartoon balloons over the alien’s head. He tried to read them, but they were hard to follow. They said something about how the warden was letting him out two days early because my friend was such a wonderful person, or that he got extra credit for meditating while in the hole, or something; he was never clear on that part, but the aliens walked him right out of the front gate of the prison and left him there. He said he thought they had some power over the guards to let him go.
So before he knew it, there he was in front of the prison farm, let out two days early because of getting credit he didn’t know about for good behavior, all alone, peaking on acid, holding a paper bag with all his possessions, and gazing at the world in total wonder as the miraculous sun shone, and the grass grew, and he was free, free, free! He sat down in the grass right there in front of the Santa Rita prison farm and started talking to the grass, and in a while, the grass grew right through him, he could hear the grass taking over his body, and he became just another part of the very grassiness of the world … and after while he fell asleep.
In the morning, he woke up next to the paper bag containing his wallet and his possessions and didn’t know where he was. He sat up, looked around, saw he was outside the prison, and the memories of the acid trip and his miraculous escape and the aliens came back to him. He got up, walked to the road, and hitchhiked back to Santa Cruz.
And ever after that, he was convinced that LSD could do anything, melt steel bars, open jail doors, and nothing we could say about time off for good behavior would ever convince him differently. The belief never seemed to do him any harm, he never tried to fly off of buildings on acid or anything stupid. He just had an unshakeable faith that everything would turn out right for him … and as is sometimes the case for folks who believe that, for him it always did. Go figure, he was the only one of us who got out in time to celebrate New Year’s Eve.
They let the rest of us out the day after New Years, a cold windy day. The year had turned while we were away, we’d given stopping the War our best shot, and the War didn’t seem to notice at all. We’d missed Christmas. We’d missed the New Year’s party. We’d even missed our fifteen minutes of fame, we were in the slam the next day when the newspapers hit the streets … and by the time we were let out, after twenty days, the world had totally forgotten the sit-in, the story was dead on arrival …
“Oh, you were in a sit-in? I didn’t realize there had been one. Was it exciting?”
On that last day, we went through the standard drill, lines for this, sign here, lines for that, initial the form, put our civilian clothes back on, they handed us our wallets and belts and out the door with you, boyo.
Two of my three girlfriends picked me and a couple of other Santa Cruz Resistance guys up outside the jail, and we all went back to Santa Cruz to plan the next step in the noble fight against the war. One thing was clear, though.
Throwing my skinny okole in jail, whether they did it or I did it to myself, didn’t seem to change the war one bit. I’m a slow learner sometimes … but I never tried that brilliant plan again.
w.
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John Coleman – Sorry to read your reactionary POV. I side with Willis. The war was definitely unconstitutional. Only the Senate can declare a war. It’s in the Constitution, clear as day, and you know it. LBJ used the Gulf of Tonkin Incident to expand our advisorship into much more, and 56,000 US boys died – for noting but the fable of The Domino Theory. You know all that, too. You were plenty old enough to know what was happening.
I was a HUGE fan of yours when you did the weather in Chicago. I side with you on global warming. But don’t go telling us that the Vietnam War was legal. And when the USA gave the middle finger to the UN Security Council and still went to war in Iraq, that one was even worse. Bush et al are still at risk for their torture there. I sure hope you didn’t support that, too, because I would still like to think I am a huge fan of yours.
I spent three years in the Army – 1967 to 1970 – at the height of it all, and never got sent to THAT “over there.” But every fellow troop I served with did, with only one exception. Not one who ever talked to me (and they all did) said anything except this: His one and only reason for fighting was to hopefully come back in one piece. There was no “Save the world from bad guys” mentality about it at all. Most all did come back alive and in one piece, and I am as happy for them as I can be. None of them – MY generation, MY brothers in arms – deserved to be fodder, to be put into a kill-or-be-killed situation – for nothing at all. As my fellow trainees arrived in Vietnam, they got there just in time for the Tet Offensive. We (they, actually) arrived just as the tipping point happened. After that, no one connected with the war had any illusions about some grand purpose.
Years later. in 1997 in a bar in Cicero, IL (which I know you know), I ran into a Vietnam vet who was still wearing a field jacket. He kept badgering me to look at the photos he had. I finally relented, and what I saw were his personal photos of the kind Lieutenant Calley would know all about – Vietnamese women and children in ditches and on the road, all bloody and dead. An entire village killed. By that GI’s platoon. 30 years later he was still totally haunted by it and was seeking absolution – absolution I was in no position to give him. I wished I could have.
BTW, every GI I knew sided with the demonstrators. Without exception.
denniswingo –
Being a member of that generation, one who spent 3 of those years in the Army, I can tell you that, yes, we rejected everything our parents stood for, at least at the time. I would also ask what generation doesn’t? The 1950s? Maybe. THAT generation swallowed the whole white picket fence thing. Most don’t. But we all came around in the end, those who lived long enough. Most of us ended up in the suburbs, with the same kinds of jobs and responsibilities our parents had. There is no cultural wasteland.
Basically it is always a matter of what Sam Clemens went through with his Pap. Four years out on his own, he was amazed how much Pap had learned. MY POV is that if you don’t rebel to some good degree your development is a bit slower. Those rebellious (or not) years are when we choose up sides between the adventurers (WIllis’ term) or the safety-first folks. Like I just said to John Coleman – I will side with Willis: Get out there and experience life, at least for a while. Life is about a lot more than just being safe. Gawd! Who wants to go to the grave never having done anything but be responsible and square and following all the rules?
Steve Garcia
Willis –
The acid trip was so true to life I almost had a flashback. I was laughing my ass off. Aliens and cartoon balloons and walls breathing with him. Yeah, sounds about right. . . ROFL
Steve Garcia
StephenWilde and AlexS –
“Well written and entertaining as always but are we not in danger of losing sight of the primary purpose of this site ?”
And
“Precisely. I expect climate news or discussion not Willis life story, no disrespect intended.”
Guys, read the header for WUWT. The first thing listed is what? Nope, not climate change. Sorry.
The first one is Commentary on puzzling things in life.
Climate change is fifth on the list.
Steve Garcia
feet2thefire says, February 25, 2013 at 8:50 pm: “I side with Willis. The war was definitely unconstitutional. Only the Senate can declare a war. It’s in the Constitution, clear as day, and you know it. … But don’t go telling us that the Vietnam War was legal. And when the USA gave the middle finger to the UN Security Council and still went to war in Iraq, that one was even worse.”
=================================================================
I am not an expert on the US Constitution, but my guess would be that no declaration of war is needed if the US has already been attacked, this includes any attack on the country’s military outside the country, where it is legally deployed.
As for the Iraq wars, the first one (2 August 1990 – 28 February 1991) was U.N.-authorized and ended only with a ceasefire accord, therefore no additional U.N.-authorization was needed to continue it after the ceasefire accord was violated by Iraq.
E.M Smith –
Some good points, but I’d like to comment on one and add one perspective. You said:
“Was communism out to use social manipulation to turn ‘useful idiots’ into a 5th column via war protests? Yes, and it worked.”
No, E.M. We didn’t need no stinkin’ commies to lead us around by our noses. We had reason to not trust the government.
You did mention governments lying to us. So let’s not forget the Kennedy Assassination and the Warren Commission. It isn’t so much that the Warren Commission lied for whatever reasons. What is important is that we, the people, came to believe that they lied to us. (I certainly think they did.) The combined shock of the assassination itself, which cut short a very hopeful time – Peace Corps, the space race, etc. – and the feeling that, DAMN! we can’t trust the government! If the government hd been able to show some clear reason to be there it might have been different.
But let us also not forget that for WWI and WWI there were HUGE conservative efforts to keep us out of those wars. Foreign soil was NOT, they said, where American boys should be, fighting someone else’s war. In both wars those efforts were successful for a long time. FDR would have had us in the war much earlier if there weren’t some people resisting for all they were worth.
You also suggest that WUWT itself is a rebellion. That is a terrific realization!
We here are not in principle any different from the demonstrators of the ’60s. Our politics here is mostly different, just as theirs was different from those trying to keep America out of the two big wars. But our main POV here is that we aren’t going to let them get away with what amounts to lying the world into something that is WRONG.
What is different between us and them? We haven’t taken to the streets.
Yet.
And I don’t think we will have to. But if Climategate hadn’t happened, where would we be now? Painting placards?
Steve Garcia
Greg House says: February 25, 2013 at 1:26 pm
“….There was no Vietnam. There was North Vietnam ruled by communists and this communist state, supported by the communist Soviet Union, invaded South Vietnam. The Americans and other countries defended the South Vietnam….”
Geez Greg, please go a and read a few books on the matter. With all due respect you seem to be stuck on 1965 era US Government standard issue propaganda…..
Now the Vietminh were no angels, and were pretty sure they should run the place (and there were plenty of other takers, except Ho Chi Minh and his men were the best organized). In the very early days he had the support of the OSS (later to become the CIA), and the declaration of independence echoes some wording of the USA declaration……
Far more complex than you think; Even Wikipedia gets you off to a good start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Vietnam
markx says, February 25, 2013 at 9:55 pm: “Geez Greg, please go a and read a few books on the matter. With all due respect you seem to be stuck on 1965 era US Government standard issue propaganda… Far more complex than you think; Even Wikipedia gets you off to a good start:…”Full-scale war broke out between the Việt Minh and France in late 1946 and the First Indochina War officially began. Realizing that colonialism was coming to an end worldwide, France fashioned a semi-independent State of Vietnam, within the French Union, with Bảo Đại as Head of State.””
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Yeah, “France fashioned”, I see. You’d better be careful reading Misleadipedia.
And why your “history” quote stopped by 1946(rhetorical question)? Read this, please: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Vietnam: “The term “South Vietnam” became common usage in 1954, when the Geneva Conference partitioned Vietnam into communist and non-communist parts.”
But then the communist North Vietnam wanted it all, and America and other countries defended the South Vietnam. Understandably, the (pro-)communists protesters did not like it and protested.
BFL “One thing that would help is to have required courses in logic and critical thinking starting in high school. But I suspect the reason that these courses don’t exist is that a thinking populace would hinder politicians excessively.”
All too true. It’s hard to find a college course in logic now-a-days. When I went to school, logic was a freshman course for philosophy, but now in some colleges a senior optional course. All too often what passes for “critical thinking” is some aging hippy indoctrinating a captive audience in his version of reality.
Concerning that government in the district of criminals, most people would be horrified if they knew all that it is doing “in our name”. There are very evil people there, and the more I learn about what they’re doing, the more I’m disgusted. I can’t say more, or it’ll spill out into a book.
As for the Vietnam war, in spite of our politicians hindering our boots on the ground, they won it, but those lying, crooked politicians snatched defeat out of the mouth of victory. The South Vietnamese were willing to fight, so we gave them planes, but no fuel or bombs; we gave them guns and tanks, but no bullets; those became runway decorations and parade accouterments, but useless when the North Vietnamese sent their tanks southwards. Sam Erwin and his cohorts have the blood of tens of thousands of my generation as well as millions of Asians on their hands.
I had already been introduced to socialists by that time, through Herr Hitler and his National Socialists (members of the socialist international) and (“In one two year period I killed more people than the over 20,000,000 we lost in WWII”) Tovarishch Stalin and his leninists, so I had no illusion what sort of savages we were fighting in Vietnam. But I was 4-F, only later thankful that I wasn’t wasted by those lying politicians.
The DC corruption has been going on for a long time. Wilson lied us into WWI. FDR gave Japan a choice, attack or have their economy revert to pre-industrial age, then lied about it—WWII in the Pacific could have been avoided but FDR wanted it. LBJ and his Gulf of Tonkin lies. And so on and so forth.
To get back to the original point, our education system has been deliberately dumbed down, training in logic and critical thinking distorted, because an uneducated populace is easier to demagogue, by issues such as AGW…
Steve Garcia:
“Who wants to go to the grave never having done anything but be responsible and square and following all the rules?”
It’s precisely because I’m “responsible and square and following all the rules” that I’m now a rebel against that lying government in the district of criminals. It’s my sincere hope and desire that that rebellion never goes beyond a war of words.
Greg House says: February 25, 2013 at 11:07 pm
“..And why your “history” quote stopped by 1946? Read this, please: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Vietnam: ..”
Hi Greg,
Not stopped, that was the start. And it is important to consider the start and what might have been… 1965 was a ‘reset’ that didn’t work …More wiki from your ref tells a little more about the validity of the South Vietnamese govts of the time:
Having said that, the southerners don’t particularly like the northerners today, and probably less so then. It would appear that a complicating factor was that quite a number of southerners hated the regimes that had set up more than they disliked the northerners. The 1965 divide had sent a significant number of southern Viet Minh to the north, determined to return. And of course Ho Chi Minh and his men were determined to craft a single nation out of it one way or the other.
Seeing the rapidity with which they have embraced (re-embraced?) capitalism now, and how much they like everything American and western, one can only wonder how much more quickly this current state of affairs would have arisen had the Americans provided support instead of opposition in those early French Colonial days. Sure as hell the Vietnamese where not going to put up with Russians or Chinese telling them what to do for very long. (Oh, the wisdom of hindsight).
Remember in spite of later Nth Vietnamese/Chinese co-operation that they were at war with Communist China in 1979.
Greg House says: February 25, 2013 at 11:07 pm
“The term “South Vietnam” became common usage in 1954, when the Geneva Conference partitioned Vietnam into communist and non-communist parts.”
http://www3.nccu.edu.tw/~lorenzo/Jian%20China%20Involvement%20Vietnam.pdf
feet2thefire says:
February 25, 2013 at 8:50 pm
“Not one who ever talked to me (and they all did) said anything except this: His one and only reason for fighting was to hopefully come back in one piece. ”
_______________________
You said it much better than I could.
That moment when you “get it” that there are determined people aggressively trying to kill you is a huge shock. It all becomes very personal at that point and the only thing external that you are fighting for from then on becomes your buddies who are in peril with you.
—————————————
As far as all of the GIs embracing the protesters… you and I moved in different circles.
Speaking for myself, I emerged from those years with conflicts to overcome.
Most of us individually were trying to do the right thing.
So many of the comments in this thread reflect what was going on at the time and what continues to this day.in the resistance to the lies of the power manipulators which is evident in this site. It is ironic, but not a bit funny that many of the young folks who view themselves as today’s ‘social justice seeking’ revolutionaries of a sort and saviors of the world, are such complete and utter pawns. Maybe someday they will catch on.
Nice (a while ago I asked if there were any other lefties frequenting this blog – I don’t know how you’d define yourself now). As a British observer who was young at the time of the Vietnam war, now I can’t take a hard stance on it. Tragedy and error, yes, ongoing hardship for the Vietnamese, much suffering for the veterans on both sides. In the end, I think, ‘hate war, respect the warriors.’
For those who want only climate issues, Anthony’s header includes ‘puzzling things in life’, so if you’re not interested, tune out, there’s plenty on climate!
On Vietnam war vs World War II, what was happening in Vietnam was really an internal, civil war over politics and economics; there was no threat to any other country, except in the perception of US strategists of the ‘domino effect’ (actually originally formulated by Lenin). On the other hand, both Nazi Germany and imperialist Japan had clear and serious intentions of conquest, and of imposing their screwed up values and practices wherever they could.
Nearly everyone in Britain is eternally grateful to the USA for its support and active involvement during WWII; critics of the US (for example, many Mexicans with whom I live) would do well to consider what their lives might be like if the Nazis had succeeded in their plans for conquest.
Peter Hannan says, February 26, 2013 at 1:05 am: “On Vietnam war vs World War II, what was happening in Vietnam was really an internal, civil war over politics and economics; there was no threat to any other country, except in the perception of US strategists of the ‘domino effect’ (actually originally formulated by Lenin). On the other hand, both Nazi Germany and imperialist Japan had clear and serious intentions of conquest, and of imposing their screwed up values and practices wherever they could.
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Well, communists as well had clear and serious intentions of conquest, and of imposing their screwed up values and practices wherever they could, and after taking over a territory they had a habit to murder their so called “class enemies” and enslave other people.
More to the point, who appointed you the judge of the actions of an entire generation? Was there a special election for the post of inter-generational judge, or did you win the judgeship by acclaim?
In the course of some research recently I have been able to dig up online come copies of the Village Voice from 1967 and 68. I was researching a person who today is a leading climate change “We must deindustrialize the world because we are destroying it” person. It turns out that in 1968 he was invited to spend time in the Soviet Union and this was his article extolling his time there.
The entire thing infuriated me as it was patently bullshit. He was talking about spending time in coffee shops, watching the Bolshoi, and other activities that led the reader to think that Moscow was not much different than living in lower Manhattan at the time. There is a life magazine from about that same time that had a similar viewpoint. There was some slight discomfort in the article about the lack of freedom of expression and those that got taken away by the KGB but no real criticism. Fast forward in time and we know how completely corrupt and repressive the Soviet Union was and that these trips like this were carefully orchestrated campaigns by the Russians to sew a meme that it was the U.S. warmongers that were the world’s creeps.
Another article was by a Village Voice writer that had gone and spent time with the Viet Cong and was extolling their back to nature type lifestyle and contrasting that with the materialistic and imperialistic Americans with all of their technology who were fighting against basically the people of the Earth.
A third meme of your generation was anti-technology. Though the meme of your generation in reporting has been that Richard Nixon was responsible for the demise of the Apollo program, the truth is (and this was my research) that funding for NASA began to be dramatically cut as early as FY 1967 and money shifted to anti-poverty programs, mostly at the insistence of your generation that could not see the value of mankind’s move into the solar system. I wrote about that here.
http://denniswingo.wordpress.com/2013/01/08/reclaiming-our-future-in-space/
I still remember a comic from the Village Voice showing a picture of Buzz Aldrin on the Moon with a sign saying “So What”.
Read my article and take a look at where we were at at the beginning of 1967 in space. We were building nuclear powered rocket stages, we were preparing for an advanced campaign of lunar exploration leading to economic development. Read the 1965 book by Neil Ruzic “The Case for the Moon” where he outlines the revolutions in manufacturing, resources, and freeing mankind from our cradle through the economic development of the Moon.
Your generation rejected this and ironically used the picture sent back from the Moon of the Moon and the Earth from Apollo 8 as your touchstone for the environmental movement. The book “Limits to Growth” from a bunch of European bankers who were fellow socialist travelers with the redistribution of wealth dismissed space and basically said that we had to deindustrialize and all live like a bunch of French farmers.
This attitude that flowered in your generation is what now dominates the political scene in the form of the climate change crisis, which is no more than the ultimate appeal to authority bludgeon that is being used by those who in the history of mankind could not stomach freedom and who use science as a means whereby to implement an agenda that the Reagan generation forstalled for a couple of decades.
The Ironic thing Willis is that now you see part of the problem. You and I are fellow travelers to extoll a realist view of science, disdaining the political feel good politics that are destructive to the world (that your generation embraced wholeheartedly then). The whole essence of the AGW movement today is the logical outgrowth of the ethos that your generation embraced in the 1960’s, a feel good emotional appeal to help your fellow man, that in reality is being used as a mean to re-establish the control over humanity that a group of people that fought for liberty and who set up our constitution freed us from over 200 years ago.
Even you see the flaws and I love your work in the science, you do a great job most of the time in that regard. But think about this. How much better off would we be today if the technological progress of the 1960’s in opening the solar system not been thwarted? We would have colonies on Mars, industries on the Moon, and our fears of energy and resource depletion would be quaint alternative fiction about what could have happened.
I am very glad that you have managed to look beyond the slogans and have embraced the science that refutes the feel good politics that underpins the whole AGW movement. James Lovelock did as well and look what happened to him. There is a struggle for the heart and soul of humanity right now and a positive outcome is absolutely in doubt. Once we get to far down a road of deindustrialization, we can’t stop it and billions will die and at the end of the day it is because of the ethos bread in that fateful time of the late 1960’s and our inability today to overcome it.
Dennis Ray Wingo,
Thank you very much from a point man who has met them inside Earth First meetings.
If you do not toe the line you may not have all your toes afterwards.
Dennis (Wingo), I had asked you …
Rather than answer me, or deal with that issue at all, or simply discuss the interesting questions and move the ideas forwards, instead you’ve just gone back on the attack, telling me your judgements on my entire generations once again, how we were the spawn of demons or ruined the world for you or something.
Since it seems clear that you didn’t get my gentle hint, let me put it in plainer terms— nobody appointed you the judge of my generation, and your repeated attempts to set yourself up as the divine arbiter of the actions of others are repulsive, unpleasant, and unwanted.
Is that clear enough?
You’ve destroyed your credibility with me by your insistence that you are the man with the inside scoop on me, my generation, and the world, Dennis. As a result, I have absolutely no interest in your views on the subject. You say “Read my article and …”
I’d likely have done so … if you weren’t trying to play God …
w.
PS—There is no “my generation”, and even if there were, I’m hardly representative of it. In fact, reading my stories should have shown you long ago that I’m hardly representative of any group or generation—I’m the wild card your momma warned you about, regarding whom all generalizations such as yours ultimately fail …
Luther Wu says:
February 25, 2013 at 11:59 pm
Thanks, Luther, that is what I see as the basic truth of the war, and could definitely serve as my epitaph …
w.
Willis Eschenbach says:
February 26, 2013 at 9:46 am
Luther Wu says:
February 25, 2013 at 11:59 pm
… Most of us individually were trying to do the right thing.
Thanks, Luther, that is what I see as the basic truth of the war, and could definitely serve as my epitaph …
w.
_____________________
We often don’t know what the right thing is, but muddle ahead anyway, using whatever tools we have to guide us. The younger we are, the fewer tools we have. I can’t believe the bonehead things I’ve done or that I’ve made it this far.
I am the dumbest guy I know.
@ur momisugly Willis Eschenbach. Feb 26, 2013. 9.45 am.
“Rather than answer me, or deal with that issue at all …”
You are on the edge of being held in complete and permanent contempt by any and all who read through your exchanges with Denniswingo above, and review what else you choose to avoid and evade in this post.
YOU are the one dissimulating. Trying to force others to accept your credo as legitimate without question and then trashing them even though they proffer points, freely given, in support of their own.
Your prim dismissal of someone who has gone to some length, in a generous manner to you as a person, to explain their position, is INFANTILE, and then to use that as excuse to ignore them is COWARDLY.
I’ve had a gutfull of your positioning yourself as some sort of Universal Man, beholden to none, seeing only truth, gazing independently over the landscape of human experience.
I have been sympathetic to the idea that you like others were thrown off balance by what was actually the collapse of society – not an excuse for a never ending party – in the late ’60’s, and that you made of that what you could.
You need to hear some basic home truths.
Your conception of yourself is a fantasy.
You, like a multiitude of others at that time, were purely a product of mass market consumerism, whether this showed itself in a pair of Levis or off-the-shelf marxism. All adopted to strike a pose, feel distinctive, know you were Significant. All very normal for an adoloscent.
Thats all.
All of these postures were Standard Issue. All generated by those older than you with an eye to financial or other advantage. Choose what fits.
Sausage Factories.
In your case your template is obvious. Jack Kerouac. A good buy for a restless and uncommitted 18 yo.
You have got his instruction manuals down pat. And faithfully followed them.
On the road. Riding the rails. Right through to an apparently decades long re-reading of Dharma Bums and its tedious meanderings in the world of Zen.
“Your” supposed philosophy of “retire early and often” and everything else you use as a structure for your decisions is purely and simply taken from these pages.
You are not an Original. You are an imitator.
Kerouac as the manufacturer of the template at least had the dignity to die an alcoholic in his 50’s as being the natural end for someone whose approach to life is episodic, and after years becomes increasingly undeniably pointless.
You don’t have to do that because this positioning is not organically yours – you can take what you want from it.
You are old now and are not going to be able to change.
So stick to your stories – without claiming that they are strictly true – you write well, and your anecdotes, which are not parables but just a description of your memories of yourself, will evoke responses at least from those who find a commonality of association.
Don’t pretend the faux wisdom you are inclined to trot out is anything more than inanities printed on greeting cards.
You, like many of your generation -yes – have learnt very little of value over 40 or 50 years. It could hardly be otherwise as you considered yourselves fully formed in all important particulars by the time you were 20.
If you now can contribute something to science that’s good – I suspect that you are motivated by the unacknowledgeble realization that you might have had a very different life, or since you plainly have a very high opinion of your capacities, at least what you think you could have, but that really is something you can claim is a truth distinctive to you, and it is your problem.
Luther Wu says:
February 26, 2013 at 10:04 am
Dang, you’re just chock-full of excellent one-liners today, statements that could apply to us all, the mistakes I’ve made are legion. Heck, I list a bunch of mine in the post above …
w.
People have asked me if The Captain would have approved of my actions regarding my voyage into and out of the Army, which as I mentioned is detailed here, and I haven’t known how to answer. I never knew the man, he died decades before I was born.
I realized on re-reading this thread, however, that I had a very good guide to the answer to that question—the woman who knew him the best, and lived her life strictly by his principles, my beloved grandmother, My-mummie.
As I said above, I lived with her after I was in the Army. She hated the Vietnam War with a passion. She was fiercely anti-Communist because of the horrors she had fought against behind the Iron Curtain … and yet she felt, as many did, that Vietnam was the wrong war, in the wrong place, at the wrong time, against the wrong people. She saw it as one of the most colossal mistakes the US Government had ever made.
She was not opposed to war per se, she knew we’d had to fight the Nazis for example. She’d lost one of her own brothers in WWI, but counted it a worthy sacrifice. And she, like I, had great respect for the warriors who actually did the fighting—she had seen, even more than I have, both what they had accomplished and what it had cost.
On the other hand, she was overjoyed that none of her grandchildren had to fight in Vietnam, and had no problem at all with my actions—she was glad I’d escaped, regardless of the means, from having to support killing people in what she saw as a useless, tragic, and ultimately futile sacrificial madness, with a huge human cost in life and limb and sanity on both sides.
So I can’t say if The Captain would have approved of my actions … but My-mummie certainly did.
w.
jc says:
February 26, 2013 at 12:22 pm
jc, please re-read what denniswingo said, and my response to him, and what John Coleman said, and my response to him.
I have no problem with Dennis proffering points, freely given, in support of his own position.
But instead of stating and then supporting his own position, Dennis wanted to judge an entire generation, as if that were even possible. I quote his opening sentence, the idea he came in the door with, the first words out of his mouth:
How on earth you interpret that as him “proferring points in support of his own position” is a mystery to me … and I fear that regardless of whether you threaten me with the unbearable lash of your stinging contempt, I’ll continue to treat that kind of action as the shallow, arrogant, supercilious, over-generalized, unsupported, patronizing, unpleasant, untrue, and generally nasty attack that it actually was.
John Coleman, on the other hand, did espouse a position, and proffered reasoned support for it, he moved the conversation forwards. My response to him is here.
I deal with people as individuals, jc, depending on how they deal with me. If they come in attacking me with all guns blazing, doing their best to trash my name, I treat that with all of the contempt it deserves. This is a discussion, not a shooting gallery, and I refuse to be the target.
w.
You can read.
You cannot possibly be so incapable of absorbing at least the rudimentary meaning of what you have read above.
The techniques, methodologies, posturings of those wanting to manipulate are daily paraded by a legion of public figures.
I’m not buying.
As far as I am concerned you have revealed and defined yourself as implacably dishonest in dealing with basic human exchanges.
End of story.
Groovy man.
@jc
Fully formed in all- important particulars at the age of 20? That’s beaucoup dinky dau. Haven’t you been paying attention?
Ps I’m not sticking up for Willis or anybody… I’m wondering what you’ve been drinking and if you got any more?