Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
I’ve written about my time in the US Army, and about spending time behind bars getting out of the Army, in my story called It’s Not About Me. In that story, I discussed a bit of my view on the Vietnam war, the view echoed by many who have studied it since—that it was the wrong war, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. My experience was that the Vietnam war damaged every single person it touched, on both sides of the Pacific, and more than anyone it damaged some of the veterans who’d actually done the fighting. I know that because I spent months in the nuthouse assisting the physically crippled and the memory damaged. My friends there were the shell-shocked refuse of the carnage. It’s not my wish to refight the war or what I did regarding the war, just to tell my story about it, so please, let’s not turn this into a referendum on some imaginary “right” response to the Vietnam War—there weren’t any of those, just levels of wrong responses, plus pain and suffering enough for all.
Christina Dorothea Dyer Greene, and looking at that lovely old granny, you’d never guess she’d once put a voodoo death curse on a middle-aged man … and he died within the week. Another story I should tell sometime.
A couple years after I got out of the nuthouse and the Army, I went to live with the Captain’s Daughter, my beloved grandmother we called “My-mummie” whom I’ve written about before. It was a great experience for me. It was after my grandfather’s death, and my oldest cousin was living there as well. She and I have always been close. We cooked dinner and washed and dried the dishes and kept up the grounds and did house maintenance and such for My-mummie. The best part was that I could hear her stories again (and some for the first time) as an adult and not as a seven-year-old kid. I lived with her about a year, it was fascinating, I’ll write more about her sometime.
After a while, though, I wanted my own place. I loved My-mummie, but eventually, I had to move out on my own. A friend of my cousin’s said she needed someone to caretake a tiny one-room cabin she owned near Santa Cruz, totally enclosed by a state forest. I said sure and moved out there. It was an enchanted place. It always reminded me of Snow White’s pad. It was quite close to Santa Cruz but totally hidden. You’d drive through the protected forest, and there was a little clearing with a little house in the sunlight, the famous “bee-loud glade”. I continued making and selling sandals.
This was also the first time I ever made money from my art. I mean as opposed to my music. I started making and selling mobiles. I made light fixtures that were mobiles, using glass, and candelabras, and railroad lanterns, and pieces of cut steel, and crystals, and found objects. They moved and spun, casting an ever-changing, entrancing light. They were beautiful, and they were easy to make and sell, people snapped them up as fast as I finished them, so I generally had a bit of money, not much, but enough.
Of course, the Vietnam War was still going on; it hadn’t stopped because I’d managed to get my invitation canceled. I met some people who were in a loose confederation called “The Resistance”. The Resistance was founded by David Harris, who was married to the singer Joan Baez at the time. Some of us Resistance guys rented a house just behind the Santa Cruz Boardwalk on Second Street. We called it the “Resistance Commune”. We were hippies, we were opposed to the Vietnam War. We believed in peace and love. Bored middle-aged housewives brought food to the house and gave money, so we’d be free to work to end the war. And we did work, we did what we could, and we worked hard at it.
It was a strange time. We believed in something vague called “The Revolution”. We weren’t sure what that was, but we knew we were at the forefront of it. It involved throwing out everything that our parents believed. That much was obvious from the terrible hole it left behind. Beyond that, we were making up the song as we were singing it.
It was also the time of “free love”. I later learned that (for me at least) love is rarely free, but we were young and didn’t know that yet. At the time I was sexually involved with three women. Not at the same instant or in the same bed, you understand, but at the same time. They all three lived in a commune called the “River Street House”. They all knew each other, they were good friends, they all knew about me, there were no secrets between us. None of us thought much about it, it went on for a couple months, it was great … well, it was actually fantastic until I came down with the clap, and I had to tell all three of them.
Gonorrhea. Ugly word, I know, and an ugly reality, but I have to be honest about the bad as well as the good. I’ve said I am telling my tale warts and all, and having the clap definitely qualifies as more than a wart in my world.
I got the usual symptom, a leaky faucet, went to the doctor, got tested, and I got the bad news. So I called the three lovely ladies all together and told them all at one time, so there was no misunderstanding and we could get it clear. I said that I had the clap and that I must have gotten it from one of them, because I hadn’t had sex with anyone else, and I was willing to swear to that.
Now, after I published my story about hopping freight trains, people wrote in the comments to say I should issue clear warnings in my stories, so fools don’t try to follow my path. They said I should do that to keep a bunch of maroons from cluttering up the rail yards with their corpses and body parts and drowning in the Kenai and the like trying to follow my lead. Seemed excessive to me, like the sign on my aluminum foil reflective car screen that keeps the sun off of the dashboard when I park, covering the front window entirely. The sign says, no bull, it says
“WARNING! Do not drive the car with this sunscreen in position”.
Really? We’ve fallen that far?
In any case, to keep folks from complaining about this story, here’s my Official Warning—kids, don’t try this one at home. Do whatever you have to do in order to avoid telling three women at the same time that one gave you gonorrhea and you might have given it to the other two. I assure you, Miss Manners classifies it as a major social blunder.
Plus it’s not an easy subject to bring up, regardless of how you lay the groundwork, and I’ll tell you, gonorrhea is a real bitch to just casually slip into a conversation without groundwork. Like “Oh, yeah, guess what, dearest ladies, funniest thing happened to me yesterday, I was passing by my doctor’s, and I thought I’d drop in, you’ll never believe what he told me …”
That wasn’t the hardest part, though. As uncomfortable and painful as it had been for me to tell the three of them that I’d gotten the clap from one of them and I might have passed it on, there was worse to come.
First, though, we all had to walk on eggshells around each other, no sex for anyone until they got their results back from the lab, from memory that took three-four days.
Now, for those men out there who have had the unfortunate luck to be falsely accused, and who have had to try to convince a furious woman of your actual innocence, that you have been true to her and only her, you have not been cheating on her, and that you are telling her the 100% facts of the case, I’m sure you all can testify how just how hard and painful that is …
Well, just be thankful that you have not had to try to convince three furious women, who have just gotten out of the car after driving back from the clinic together, three furious women who have been discussing your shortcomings and lack of honesty because all of their tests turned out negative. Consider trying to convince them that you have been true to them and only them, that you haven’t been unfaithful to the three of them in either thought or word or deed, and that you’re telling God’s own truth. I don’t recommend it for the weak of heart.
Of course, they didn’t believe a word of what I was saying; understandably, they had the medical proof. The three of them got in my face all at once, shouting, punching my shoulders … it was truly not a pretty picture, folks, your narrator did not appear in a good light at all. First, my faucet starts leaking, then my sacred word is being seriously questioned, and now I’m in the doghouse and getting thumped on by not just one but all three beautiful women that I care about … it was a very bad week for me.
Much battered in spirit, not to mention somewhat bruised about the upper torso, I went to the library and studied up on the tests they’d been given. As always, the science helps. It turned out that the test they used for men back then was pretty good, but in women, you got a false negative about one time in four. That is to say, for one woman in four who actually had gonorrhea, the test didn’t show it. I’d always been a good mathematician, I took out my pencil and figured that if there was one chance in four of a false positive for any one of them, there was an excellent chance that one or more of them had a bad test result.
So I went back and told that to the good ladies. They were skeptical, but they all went and got retested. It turned out that one of them actually did have the clap, so my honor was restored, I had been telling the truth. I really had been faithful to the three of them and the three of them alone just like I’d sworn to them, and the very best news was … I hadn’t given the disease to either of the other two. And in the end, they all told me they forgave me, although I’m still not clear what I’d done that needed forgiving. But I accepted it with an open heart anyhow, they were wonderful women … however, I digress, I’m just happy I was young after penicillin and before AIDS …
As part of our Resistance work, we arranged all kinds of protests against the war, against imperialism, against poverty. We thought of ourselves as Dadaist revolutionaries, though. I liked to carry random signs in the marches, signs advertising weird stuff, signs just with pictures, strange signs. On one march, I was face to face with the riot police, with everyone waving signs to end the Vietnam war, and yelling slogans. Everyone had their signs, “END THE WAR”, “END THE INVASION”, that kind of thing.
Me, I was in front, hollering at the cops, and I was waving a lovely international orange road sign with black letters I’d found mounted on a post along the protest route, and had brought with me … I was a bit unclear on the “let’s all protest something” concept, I guess, but I knew how to have fun. I used to say that a Revolution you couldn’t laugh at wasn’t worth having.

The Vietnam War went on and on. In December, The Resistance leaders, based in Palo Alto, arranged for the second big mass sit-in at the Alameda Induction Center. At the first Resistance sit-in, everyone had gotten arrested, it was all peaceful, and they all had to do five days at the Santa Rita prison farm. The papers picked it up, it was a one-day wonder, we were all abuzz about how the war machine was cracking and how the Resistance was famous and we were starting to win …
However, the first sit-in had had absolutely no larger effect of any kind that I could tell. After the one day of news, that was it; no follow-up articles, the entire sit-in and the arrests and the jail time just vanished, and the war rolled on without the slightest change.
So the decision was made to do the exact same thing again, another identical sit-in, same time, same place.
Hey, don’t look at me like that. They didn’t solicit my opinion, although at the time I might have agreed. I likely was dumb enough then to do something a second time expecting a different result. So the Santa Cruz Resistance Commune (those of us who could) went up to Oakland for a sit-in at the Army Induction Center to see if we could raise a public outcry and get arrested. “Clog up the gears of the war machine”, I believe was the catchphrase of the time.
I gotta confess, I wasn’t crazy about the whole idea. After spending a month or so locked up in the Navy nuthouse, and then five months behind bars in the Army nuthouse, I was kinda over the whole razor wire and cells and bars and guards experience—the thrill was gone. I’d done my time. But I went along. We were part of The Revolution, so no sacrifice was too great.
Our friends drove us up to Oakland early in the morning. We all got together around six AM, maybe 120 people or so, and we all sat down and blocked the doors of the Induction Center. It was funny, that’s exactly where I’d been inducted a couple of years before. I was one of the few guys in the crowd who’d actually been inside. I’d spent hours in the place.
A “sit-in” is a non-violent event. It’s also, for that very reason, boring as hell. First off, we figured they’d open at eight, but they didn’t even open until nine … so we sat around and told each other stories about how noble our cause was, and how wrong the pigs and the war merchants were, and how much difference we were making. Like I said … booooring.
Eventually, the cops came. The Oakland Police were practiced at the action by then; it wasn’t their first rodeo. They backed up the paddy wagon, the police prisoner van, right up to the mass of sitting people, and just started tossing us in the back. As one wagon got full and left, another pulled right in. It was assembly line arrests; Henry Ford would have been proud. We thought we’d clog up the gears of the war machine? No worries, they had them well-greased. By noon, we were all hauled away, and they were back to inducting draftees into the Army with no sign that anything had happened.
I’d never been in a paddy wagon, the “Black Maria” van the cops use to transport prisoners. But as you know, I’m always up for new experiences. The main thing I remember about it was that it smelled like vomit, no surprise there; it served as the rolling drunk tank most nights of the week. Given a choice, I’d advise taking alternate transportation. They hauled us away to the Justice Center by the packed van load.
We were put in a big cell. No windows, kind of dark. We waited for hours and hours. Waiting bothered some people a lot; they walked and paced, rattled the bars. I’d been locked in rooms like that before in the nuthouse, so I knew waiting of old, waiting was a good friend of mine. I could wait with the best of them. One by one, people left the room to go before the Judge. None came back. We had no idea of our fate.
When my name was finally called, after the darkness of the holding cell, the courtroom was blindingly bright. I blinked and looked around. The Judge was on a high dais; I had to look way up to him. He said, “You are charged with Disturbing the Peace. How do you plead?” Like all of us, I plead guilty to Disturbing the War. The Judge looked just like a frog, puffed up, obviously frustrated by the unending long line of people waiting to come before him and mock his court. He sentenced me to twenty days like everyone else before me, and they started to take me … wait! say what? Twenty days?
Twenty days? We’d figured on getting five days like the last bunch … and since that day was December 13th, that meant we wouldn’t see freedom until the second of January. We’d miss both Christmas and New Year. Pinche cabrón, I hadn’t planned on that, but there it was. My choices were either to dig it or bitch about it, and besides, no sacrifice was too great because we were making such a difference. It just made us more noble. Plus any mathematician could tell you, if we stayed in twenty days we’d make four times the difference that the folks made who stayed five days … of course, that had been zero difference, but we were comforted by the thought that we’d do four times as much.
So I reset my mental retirement clock; my next retirement wouldn’t be in time for Christmas, no, no. I reset for twenty days. No problem, I’d done months inside, I could do twenty days “standing on my head” as they say.
They took us, busload by busload, out to Santa Rita Prison Farm. They had two big connected barracks set aside for us, likely to avoid trouble with the cons. Or maybe to keep us from talking to them about sit-ins, I don’t know. I believe they’ve torn those barracks down since and built something else. We were over 100 guys, including David Harris, the founder of The Resistance. The much smaller number of women went elsewhere.
Being locked up this time wasn’t too bad. I was in a big barracks surrounded by like-minded friends. And best of all, I never once woke up lashed down to a bed, as had happened before several times, and that’s always a huge plus in my world. We talked story and compared lies.
The best day in jail for all of us was Christmas, but not for the usual reason. I woke up and my friend Rodney said, “Hey, check this out!”, with a big grin. He held out a box and told me to look inside. Damn, it was a treasure chest!
What happened was that some guys from the San Jose Resistance had broken into the jail late Christmas eve. That’s right, not out of the jail, but into the jail, like some lifer’s fantasy of Santa Claus for cons. They cut through the outer wire, came across an open area dodging the searchlights, cut through another fence around the barracks area, made it to our barracks, cut through the wire around our barracks, and came right inside.
Zowie. Tip of the Hat.
I talked later to one of the San Jose guys who had done it. He said going that direction was much easier than the alternative because they’re never looking for people breaking into jail. He tried to downplay the whole thing, but I was still very impressed because even if getting in was easier, the guys still had to get back out again … which took some serious stones. I told him what a great gift it had been and what a difference it had made.
In any case, I woke up Christmas morning, and Rodney said that the San Jose guys had awakened him about 2 AM. They had brought in boxes and boxes of cookies, along with several cigarette packs full of joints. Damnbetcha, regular cigarette packets full of neatly-rolled cigarettes of the mystery herb of the ancient Hindus, the eponymous “Indian Hemp”. Plus, there were a few tabs of blotter acid (LSD).
Of course, at that time marijuana and LSD were very illegal, particularly in jail, duh.
But we were in a funny place. Our barracks were the last two in a long row of similar barracks. There was only one way to get to us. It was a long path visible all along its way from the main street to us, and it had four locked gates with long walks in between. So they couldn’t rush us or do anything fast, it took them a couple minutes from when they appeared at the end of the row, out at the far end of the path with four locked gates, to the time when they arrived at the barracks after they had walked and unlocked and relocked and walked and …
So we made no attempt to hide the dope. Instead, we distributed all the joints as fairly as possible, then we all went outside to the veranda. We all lit up at once and stood around sharing joints and eating cookies. We knew that we’d have plenty of time to laugh at the guards if they tried to stop us, and that the cookies and joints would be long gone by the time they got there. The guards did finally show up, late to the party as usual, the weed and the cookies were gone, the acid well hidden. We razzed them, told them they’d missed the party, if only they’d come half an hour earlier we’d have given them cookies and offered them a joint … somehow they didn’t see the humor in it. They ran us all back inside, and lectured us, and searched the veranda area, and then ran us all outside again, and shook down the whole barracks, and found nothing …
The best story of the whole Santa Rita farce, though, happened to one of my friends. He was put in solitary confinement for fighting, not his fault, somehow he’d ended up in a regular cell and his cellmate had attacked him. We smuggled in messages to him, letting him know he wasn’t forgotten.
After Christmas, through our contacts in the joint, we were able to smuggle him one of the tabs of blotter acid that the San Jose guys had brought in. My friend figured, hey, solitary confinement is the best place in the world to drop acid, nobody can mess with me. What are they gonna do … throw me in solitary?
He liked to meditate, that’s what he’d been doing in solitary the whole time. So he took the LSD and figured he’d spend his time doing some really intense meditation. Sat down on the floor, crossed his legs, and pretty soon he was soaring.
Just as the main rush was starting to come on to him, and the cell walls were starting to melt, and the paisley colors were starting to appear on the backs of his hands, he had the very realistic hallucination that his cell door was opening. Of course, being on acid, from the time he first hallucinated hearing the aliens coming towards his door to the time he hallucinated the door finally opening was something like five or six weeks … at least it sure seemed that long, but it was hard to tell, there was that whooshy-whooshy noise that kept coming and going that distorted time too.
It seemed to him in his elevated state that two aliens came in, they looked kinda like guards, he said, but you could tell the difference — he knew they weren’t guards. They said they had a directive from the home planet or something; their words kept echoing and bouncing around his head, or maybe it was just the echoes in the cell, but they were very hard to understand. They said to come with them, so he followed them meekly, wondering vaguely, where were the aliens taking him?
But he didn’t wonder long, because the prison walls of the corridor were so interesting. How come he’d never noticed before that prison walls flex slightly inward and outward when you breathe? He tried to tell the aliens about his discovery, but they told him to shut up.
The faces of the aliens kept changing and melting, but he said he wasn’t afraid; he could tell they were friendly. At one point, the aliens lost the form of guards and then assumed the form of prison officials standing behind a counter. They put a paper bag on the counter and had him sign some papers. One of the alien official people talked to him. He couldn’t hear him at all, but there were little cartoon balloons over the alien’s head. He tried to read them, but they were hard to follow. They said something about how the warden was letting him out two days early because my friend was such a wonderful person, or that he got extra credit for meditating while in the hole, or something; he was never clear on that part, but the aliens walked him right out of the front gate of the prison and left him there. He said he thought they had some power over the guards to let him go.
So before he knew it, there he was in front of the prison farm, let out two days early because of getting credit he didn’t know about for good behavior, all alone, peaking on acid, holding a paper bag with all his possessions, and gazing at the world in total wonder as the miraculous sun shone, and the grass grew, and he was free, free, free! He sat down in the grass right there in front of the Santa Rita prison farm and started talking to the grass, and in a while, the grass grew right through him, he could hear the grass taking over his body, and he became just another part of the very grassiness of the world … and after while he fell asleep.
In the morning, he woke up next to the paper bag containing his wallet and his possessions and didn’t know where he was. He sat up, looked around, saw he was outside the prison, and the memories of the acid trip and his miraculous escape and the aliens came back to him. He got up, walked to the road, and hitchhiked back to Santa Cruz.
And ever after that, he was convinced that LSD could do anything, melt steel bars, open jail doors, and nothing we could say about time off for good behavior would ever convince him differently. The belief never seemed to do him any harm, he never tried to fly off of buildings on acid or anything stupid. He just had an unshakeable faith that everything would turn out right for him … and as is sometimes the case for folks who believe that, for him it always did. Go figure, he was the only one of us who got out in time to celebrate New Year’s Eve.
They let the rest of us out the day after New Years, a cold windy day. The year had turned while we were away, we’d given stopping the War our best shot, and the War didn’t seem to notice at all. We’d missed Christmas. We’d missed the New Year’s party. We’d even missed our fifteen minutes of fame, we were in the slam the next day when the newspapers hit the streets … and by the time we were let out, after twenty days, the world had totally forgotten the sit-in, the story was dead on arrival …
“Oh, you were in a sit-in? I didn’t realize there had been one. Was it exciting?”
On that last day, we went through the standard drill, lines for this, sign here, lines for that, initial the form, put our civilian clothes back on, they handed us our wallets and belts and out the door with you, boyo.
Two of my three girlfriends picked me and a couple of other Santa Cruz Resistance guys up outside the jail, and we all went back to Santa Cruz to plan the next step in the noble fight against the war. One thing was clear, though.
Throwing my skinny okole in jail, whether they did it or I did it to myself, didn’t seem to change the war one bit. I’m a slow learner sometimes … but I never tried that brilliant plan again.
w.
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Please, you are wrong on so many points in that ONE paragraph; your very judgement on any issue henceforth should be in doubt, especially when it comes to the evaluation of ‘facts’.
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Don’t know which is more interesting. The story, or the rabid / rampant responses. Clearly some folks have not been able to “learn and move on” and have not let go of their fixations. (On both ‘sides’).
Particularly interesting are the folks who, again, can’t bring themselves to click the ‘next story’ button and yet have plenty of time to complain about how they wasted their time reading a story when they could have been steeped in “Hate AGW!!!” for the zillionth time. Unable to read even the first few words ot the actual ‘purpose’ of the blog on the masthead “Commentary on puzzling things in life”… War and ‘relationships’ are certainly two I’d put high in that category…
Some people never learn… worse are those that don’t try…
Which was one of the main threads of the story, IMHO. That Willis DID learn, and many do not. That there is a voyage we all take, and some of us end up realizing it isn’t as clean a world story as we were fed (and sometimes swallowed) at various stages. Some of us learn that, others not so much.
That, for me, does tie in to the “Global Warming Scare” story and process. The same “protest” and “be part of the movement” and all manifesting among the True Believers. Some, like Hansen, retreads from the earlier protest era. Others just “useful idiots” being manipulated by their government stooges for government ends. (Curiously similar to how other government stooges manipulated people to fight and die over ‘concepts’ many could not even define if pushed.) In the end, if the government is telling you do do something, odds are it isn’t the best thing to do. In reality, it is the thoughts of some petty system-manipulator sort working for their own ends, not some high virtue. Doesn’t matter what “cause” or which government, really.
And I think that is the point of this story (or one of them). That we all live through cycles of life. That we all are told lies by our government (embodying as it does the lies of the folks grasping after power inside of it), and tell lies to ourselves. That’s not the bad part though, that bad part is folks act on those lies. We’d all be better off if that didn’t happen. But it does.
So we have a government that is once again out to remake and shape the world to the ends of those grasping after power. This time they are using NGOs and the UN and Laws and Mandates. Less bullets and bombs. This time they are more from the ‘aging radical looking for meaning’ side (ala Hanson) where last time they were more from the ‘I have God and Tradition on my side and you are wrong self righteous’ side. (Things change, the side in power changes, things move on…) What I hear in the story from Willis is that some ‘aging radicals’ realize there isn’t any meaning in such things. That the original ‘search’ was in the wrong place. That “meaning” is more often found comforting a friend and watching the sun rise, making a flute or playing one. I think that matters.
I’ve never been as prone to taking the exotic path as Willis. I’ve always been too prudent. Never more than one girl friend at a time. Never locked up. Never too far into the weeds. In the end, I find his stories more interesting than my own. (And I do have a few… from being blown up and recovering to some things where the statute of limitations may not have run out…) but always with more cushion of safety and less whole hearted commitment. I find myself admiring the commitment to live life a bit more fully than I did. Even the hard and painful bits.
And from those bits I think we can all learn a few things. Let go of some old pains. Look at some present Powers That Be and see them making the same mistakes; so “just say no”. Was the Viet Nam War right? Yes and No. So maybe we could find a better way to handle such things. Was communism out to use social manipulation to turn ‘useful idiots’ into a 5th column via war protests? Yes, and it worked. Was that a ‘bad thing’? Depends on what would otherwise have happened, and that can not be known. But what can be known is that those same plotting and planning social manipulating skills are hard at work, still, using NGOs and the UN and all to make more ‘useful idiots’ promoting the agenda of yet more power hungry governance sorts. Arguing over who is ‘right’ vs ‘wrong’ is not nearly so important an understanding as realizing that the whole fight is a ‘put up job’ for other ends.
So yes, my friends who went off and fought bravely showed great heroism and patriotic zeal, doing an unimportant thing… AND my friends who protested and got arrested showed great heroism and a bit of ‘useful idiot’, but at least were not patsies to “the machine” enriching others through the misery of the less fortunate. Me? I could never quite chose between them. Both have much truth in their view of things; yet both failed to see the whole sordid sad picture. That there is no ‘good solution’. That “Stupid With Power” was driving the bus of two opposed governance machines, and all of us were just being ‘greased’ between them. That we would all be better if they both would just stop, but they won’t and we can’t stop them.
So I “made a hard turn” away from both and went off to other things. (Aided by a very large lottery number, but had been making plans if that didn’t pan out). Maybe I just reached the same point Willis is illuminating without needing to walk in those halls. That I didn’t need to have the ‘story experience’ to see where it would end. I’m not so sure that was the best choice. Had I gone the Green Machine route, I know I’d have gone to the “nuthouse” (or been killed in the process). I know myself. I knew that would happen. I found a way to avoid it. During the ‘free love’ era, I knew the biological risk; so didn’t take them. (Probably a good thing, as on one occasion was on an island with, um, a reputation and an offer from someone in a tight slinky… but said no – with some ‘encouragement’ from my friend who likely saved me from a large medical bill… But yet the ‘story’ passed up of a night with a native in a place…) So where does ‘prudent’ end and ‘dull life’ begin? Eh? Wisdom has its own cost if it comes too soon…
By a very different path, I think I’ve arrived at many of the same conclusions as Willis. Wars are stupid and to be avoided at all costs, except when they can’t. Right and wrong are defined by the winners and have little to do with the actual process or original motivations. Loads of folks will try to control your life for their ends, it is better to “just say no” (and go say “yes” to something you want to experience.) “This life is not a dress rehearsal, take Big Bites!” (One I’ve tried to follow, but started a bit late…) And maybe most of all: Enjoy the ride with all your fellow travelers; even the ones who call you idiot and hate you or what you believe. Often they are wrong-but-entertaining, and sometimes they are even right… but in any case the world would be a less interesting place were they gone; and a world full of folks in agreement is a police state… So “Viva La Revolucion!” in a tepid kind of ‘pass the tequila’ kind of way 😉 And be ready to reevaluate if you find out your Government Idiot Minder is wrong and the other side Government Idiot Minder is a tiny bit more right… or maybe that the guys in the weeds with no Government Idiot Minder are most right…
John Coleman says:
February 24, 2013 at 10:29 pm
Thanks, John. It was certainly not my intention to prevent you from commenting.
This is the problem with the war. It tends to polarize people, far beyond the reality of their positions. For example, I number among my good friends several men who, like you, went and fought in Vietnam. They have no problem with my position, because they don’t see it as a caricature … and in fact, they see your kind of right/wrong point of view as entirely inappropriate for either their lives or the war itself. Like me, they do not think of themselves as doing right and others doing wrong.
I’m sorry, but again this is just a cartoon of real people. I certainly don’t think of myself as either a hero or a villain, nor do most people I know. Except perhaps in your world, life is not black and white like that.
For example, we weren’t “wrong and destructive”. Some things some people did were totally wrong and very destructive, and other things some people did were spot on and hugely constructive … nothing is as simple, as two-sided, right/wrong, as you are saying.
I do not believe that in the slightest. I think that is a totally incorrect reading of the Constitution and of American motives for entering the war.
I think that is absolutely untrue. I don’t think the war was ever winnable. As I’ve pointed out elsewhere, Ho Chi Minh started fighting when he was 15. For 45 years, he and his men fought, eventually successfully, to throw out a string of foreign countries who had invaded Vietnam: first the Chinese, then after them the French, then after them the Japanese, then after them the French again. It was a brutal war, driven by the desire of the Vietnamese to rule their own country. And that was all BEFORE the US was even in the picture.
He was 60 when the Americans started trying to tell Vietnam what to do, and thus became the latest in a long list of countries who underestimated the determination of the Vietnamese. Most military historians that I’ve read agree: we weren’t going to win that fight to throw out the foreigners. It was a land war of attrition in Asia, and smart folks know not to get involved in those.
So I agree totally with you, John. The war was not lost by the US Military in any sense, they won most of the engagements … but that wasn’t enough. It was lost long before the military ever got there.
This is the only place we disagree. I know that the atrocities are true for a fact, that our guys committed atrocities both big and small, because often it destroyed the people who committed those atrocities, and I was the guy sitting up at 2 AM in the Army nuthouse weeping with them about their lost innocence … please don’t try to tell me about atrocities, my friend. I know the men who committed them, I’ve heard them described in tear-filled, soul-searing detail, and I know what they cost their souls …
Absolutely untrue from my perspective. To me the heroes were those on both sides who followed their own conscience, regardless of whether it led them to war or to jail.
Also not true on my planet. We did what we could, but peace came despite the best efforts of the anti-war movement, not because of them.
I, too, contend that all (excepting your curious claim that there were no atrocities) those claims are not correct, and some slanderous … and I also know very few people who actually hold that those claims are true.
Now, I want you to stop and consider where we stand, John.
I DO NOT BELIEVE ANY OF THE THINGS THAT YOU CLAIM THAT I BELIEVE!
And this is why I did and do not wish to re-fight the war. People are all too willing to attack each other for things they have not said, positions they have not taken, and claims they do not believe. Folks get off into their minds about some fantasized position that reasonably enrages them … except it’s such an emotional issue for them that like you, they don’t notice that I DON’T HOLD THAT POSITION.
John, as I point out above, I am absolutely not the man you mistake me for. Your opinions are about some other people that obviously you don’t like, and from the description, I wouldn’t like them either … but they’re not about me.
And that’s the war in a nutshell. We found out that the people we were fighting were not the men we mistook them for …
Finally, in parallel to the claims made above, let me state what I do believe:
1. The US entered the Vietnam War, against the strong advice of the French who actually understood it, and in the face of a very pointed and prescient warning from Charles DeGaulle who predicted the eventual outcome of the war, because of a combination of the best intentions, and misunderstandings about how the Vietnamese viewed the underlying nature of the conflict. We thought it was a commies versus free men deal. They saw it as an endless war against hated foreign invaders, 45 years of war before we showed up, in which we were only the latest of said hated invaders.
1a. The conflict was Constitutional, although Johnson lied about the Gulf of Tonkin incident. It had nothing to do with either imperialism or world dominance.
2. The US military neither won nor lost the war on the battlefield, although in general it fought bravely, courageously, and as honorably as one can in a war with no black and white, with nothing really separating the combatants from the civilians, and with everything in shades of gray. The military also bore the major cost of the war, both the cost to the individuals of their acts both honorable and less-than, and the cost to the military itself of engaging in such a circumscribed, misunderstood, unpopular war of shadows. It took the US military itself years to recover from the war.
Rather than losing (or winning) on the battlefield, the military was prevented by the civilian part of the US Government, for political reasons, from ever fighting the kind of war that the military wanted to fight.
It’s not clear whether releasing the military would have won the war either, it never happened so we’ll never know. After (as you might imagine) extensive research on my part, my opinion is that we were fighting against people who, rightly or wrongly, were convinced to their marrow that they were trying to throw foreign invaders out of their ancestral land … and fighting against men and women who believe that to their core is a very, very hard fight, whether they are correct in that belief or not.
I would certainly hope that if a series of countries invaded the US, that we’d fight for sixty years to throw them out one after the other, and I’d think it would be damn hard to stop us after forty-five years if we did. A man fighting to defend his own soil is a hard man to beat, and whether we like it or not, and whether with or without communism, that’s how the Ho and all of the people fighting with him saw the war—as a fight to throw out foreign invaders.
2a. And as in any war, atrocities were committed by both sides.
3. Anti-war protesters were by no means heroes, but neither were they villains. Generally, they were just like the people who went and fought—people doing the best that they could to follow the dictates of their own conscience.
So in fact, John, other than the atrocities, I agree with you completely regarding your three points … and that to me is the enduring tragedy of the war, that nearly a half-century later the damn thing still manages to divide people who actually agree with each other.
My best regards to you, and my sincere congratulations and condolences to you and the other veterans who fought in the Vietnam War. I know for a fact, because I’ve known so many veterans, both from the Army, from the nuthouse, and from after the war, that you men and women who went to fight in Vietnam followed the dictates of your conscience as best you knew how, in a difficult situation filled with shades of gray. I know that going to war was not an easy decision for many to make, that the decisions were made somewhat blindly, with incomplete information, and were fraught with shadows and unguessed-at consequences … and I say congratulations and condolences because have seen what the veterans I’ve known both gained and lost in the process, what they reaped and what it cost.
And the same is true for me, my friend. I also struggled with the decisions. And like you, at the end of the day I followed the dictates of my own conscience as best I knew how, and I have both gained and lost from my choices, just as you have from yours.
… so as I said to start with, could we agree to that much, wish each other the very best, and just enjoy the story? I’m neither a hero nor a villain, John, I’m just a guy like you trying to make sense out of a complex and confusing world.
w.
Willis, as I understand it, you are a civil engineer by education and work experience. But I have to ask, how did you find the self discipline needed to get through engineering school?
In the late 1960s an early 1070s, while they were in college, one of my cousins and his wife were deeply into the anti-war movement and somewhat into the casual drug scene.
In 1975, they both decided that their lives had no real meaning or direction, and that they were drifting aimlessly into the future. They needed a drastic change of some kind to break out of the pattern.
So my cousin enlisted in the US Navy and spent most of the next six years with the 6th Fleet in the Mediterranean, while his wife and the children lived in Naples. He was a reservist for some number of years thereafter.
Both children are now officers in the US Army.
Er – why is this stuff on WUWT? It’s not what I came to read.
Willis, you can be a miserable old so and so at times, but your responses to John Coleman et al are an excellent summary of where things went wrong, and a useful example of the concept that we think in subjective ways, and things are very rarely, if ever, black or white, right or wrong. If it’s ok with you I will in future ask my students to review the ideas you outline to prepare them for representation in difficult circumstance. Cheers G
w.
It is your guilt than now drives you.
It is your guilt keep it.
After reading your 11:17 am response herein above I will never click on one of you post ever, as you are just a voice over of the lies imprinted on you prior by the msm lie machine.
In fact of the matter your post has and will do great damage to Mr. Watts great site.
You are a danger to yourself and wattsupwiththat.
Nave a nice long guilt.
awk
apachewhoknows says:
February 25, 2013 at 11:05 am
Thanks, Apache-Who-Knows. Posts have to be approved by the moderators before they appear. So if you refresh the page immediately after posting it, it will disappear. Assuming that (like your post) it contains nothing objectionable, it will appear when the next moderation is done. In a desire to keep the site functioning near real-time, there are volunteer moderators in most of the time zones of the planet … however, sometimes it takes a little while.
Regarding your story, my congratulations to you, it sounds to me like you considered the issues, and followed the dictates of your own conscience and did what you thought was right.
As did I …
w.
Beta Blocker says:
February 25, 2013 at 11:31 am
And I have to reply, do you have a habit of asking your friends unpleasantly posed questions about what your high moral position allows you to judge as their lamentable personal short-comings … or am I just lucky?
w.
My late husband served in Vietnam, and his problems afterwards weren’t the result of what he saw over there, but how he was treated by his fellow citizens when he came home.
Jenn Oates says:
February 25, 2013 at 11:59 am
I’m sorry to hear that, Jenn. Another tragedy of the war was how the returning servicemen were treated by war protesters.
I was very opposed to people doing that at the time and spoke out against it, and I remain so today. My view was unpopular then among my friends, but after my experiences in the nuthouse, I had nothing but compassion for all of those who served. I thought they should be welcomed back and supported, not reviled.
w.
This is the end with Willis for me.
Willis, not only are you a enabler of lies and fraud, your a know-it-all who knows way to much of the condecending smirk.
You do not know me, you do not even know yourself.
Go know thyself.
Stop your ongoing damage to Mr. Watts great site, please.
What has this to do with anything? It (and the comments which ensue) diminish the value of the site.
Most of my physical scars are faded, now.
I came to understand much about the enemy during my 6 yrs. in the US Army during and after that war and I’ve come to know them better, since then.
I came to know them as enemies of free men and women, everywhere.
One thing about those doing the actual fighting- they end up fighting for their buddies, no matter how they got there to start with.
As a good friend who had just been denied an extension in country because of what he had told his interviewers… he came to feel a kind of camaraderie for Charlie because he was probably drafted or duped into the fight just as many of us were, and that the ones he really hated were the profiteers and the politicians and the protestors and the news media @ur momisugly$$hole liars back in the world.
‘Clueless minions of the puppet masters’ sounds like a B- movie cast of characters, but they are decidedly real and are still playing their parts, in some ways, even bolder than they’ve ever been.They still harbor and enshrine and cover for the Walter Cronkites and Jane Fondas in their midst and I can watch those hidden- agenda- driven liars speak to Americans any time I turn on news from MSNBC, CNN etc.
Tell me that they aren’t out there building on the footholds which they carved out during the war years and then tell me of the open and honest reporting in the MSM about man- made- climate-whatever- it- is- now and show me the supporting actors behind the scenes now and the supporting actors behind the SDS and similar anti- war shills then and I’ll show you the inheritors of the method and/or ideology or the ones who figured out just how to play it…
Barely mention to me about former anti- war activists who are now in the Gov’t. actively trying to disarm the American people, but who claim that isn’t their goal. Don’t tell me much about POTUS’ stated goal of building a ‘civilian armed force to rival the military’ and then don’t speak of his arming and equipping Big Sis’ DHS with enough ammo to fight a war of the same intensity as Iraq for 25 years. Excuse Hillary Clinton’s transgressions (Benghazi, anyone?) and hide or ignore the intellectual and emotional ties between Uncle Frank and young Barry and downplay Lisa Jackson and the like and those others within the administration who openly identify themselves as Commies and Socialists and then poo- poo any talk that those terms have meaning or that we might have a problem.. see if I care. We get played like a fiddle on a daily basis.
F.O.A.D.
Ps I probably shouldn’t have added that last line, but I’ve got a burn going and am letting it flow.
One thing I’ve noticed by observing my friends and others… anything which I notice them doing, it’s an odds- on bet that I’m guilty of the same thing.
For instance, if i were to see a friend of mine chastising someone for making a wishy- washy feel good Cali- hipster statement that nothing much matters and then do something which reminds me of that a week or so later, then somehow, I must be guilty of it, too.
War is hell, so what.
Hey Willis, thanks for another great post. I was reminded of my friends, my relatives and my classmates who were swept away overseas — some by the draft, some by choice. Most of them came back — mostly.
I was blessed with an unusually high draft number, 316. I did not enlist. Why? Because my friends who had gone before me, people who were still overseas, sent me letters begging me not to, advising me not to, ordering me not to. One kept telling me that if I were drafted he would send me the money to buy a ticket to Canada instead. Luckily I did not have to make the choice.
Now here’s the odd part. It is forty years later, and I still know some of the people who sent me those letters way back then. Some of them now tell me how proud they were to be there, how exciting it was, how it was the most alive they have ever been, how they were so concerned with protecting their country. It is not what they said at the time.
I am still glad I did not go. I have never forgiven the men who sent my friends there.
peterkar says:
February 25, 2013 at 12:38 pm
What has this to do with anything? It (and the comments which ensue) diminish the value of the site.
________________
Read what I just had to say about those who are lying to you and trying to control you through the guise of AGW…
Truth is where you find it.
Willis Eschenbach says, February 25, 2013 at 11:17 am: “…the Americans started trying to tell Vietnam what to do…”
=============================================================
There was no Vietnam. There was North Vietnam ruled by communists and this communist state, supported by the communist Soviet Union, invaded South Vietnam. The Americans and other countries defended the South Vietnam.
As for the so called “anti-war protesters”, I have never heard anything about them protesting against communists invasions anywhere. Which indicates that it was a pro-communist movement.
Willis,
I’ve read your story of the day, (and all the comments) and would offer to all the advice that my uncle Bob gave to my dad around Christmas 1943. Their older brother, Bill, had been shot down over the Netherlands in November 1943 and my father wrote to uncle Bob expressing hatred for the Germans who had killed their brother. Bob was a B-25 pilot, flying missions deep into German, but his council was this: “Don’t hate the Germans. They are fighting for their country just like we are. Don’t hate the Germans.”
Bob was shot down on January 4, 1944. He tried to land the plane in a field on the Danish border, but all 10 crewmen were lost when the wheels of the plane were caught in a creek concealed under the snow. The plane rolled up in a ball and burned. Two gold stars and one blue star hung on the porch on Edyth Street in Dunsmuir. I have the stars and still cherish the heart of a man who would not hate those whom he fought and who, in the end, killed him and his crew. One of my most memorable moments in life was the day I took my father to the cemetery in the Netherlands where both of his brothers are buried.
pbh
I think everyone agrees it was wrong for the North Vietnamese to invade South Vietnam.
@ur momisugly Greg House
“As for the so called “anti-war protesters”, I have never heard anything about them protesting against communists invasions anywhere. Which indicates that it was a pro-communist movement.”
I will go complain to my local city council if they begin to violate the law. On the other hand, why should I complain to my local city council if the government of Pyongyang violates the law? Does that mean I approve of the North Koreans?
Hi Willis,
You seemed to have stirred up a lot of emotions. Personally, I find your life to be an interesting one and I enjoy your stories. I arrived in Vietnam in mid December 1967 and left in mid February 1969. Thirteen of those months were with the Korean 9th ROK Infantry performing field illumination and perimeter security. If I ever killed anyone, I’m not aware of it, but I did see the Koreans do a couple of questionable things.
Like a lot of people, I had some some less than welcoming experiences when I came home. To a large degree I felt out of place with my peers. Eventually I made friends who were pretty much neutral on the whole war thing and I acclimated back into society. I also had friends who avoided the draft due to student deferments and later wasn’t drafted because of their lucky lottery numbers. We used to party together and there were never and conflicts to speak of.
Eventually I returned to SE Asia and spent several years in construction management as a scheduler and cost accountant. I wrote three books about my life with the Asians and expats. A few years back I had the opportunity to return to Vietnam on business. As I told my friends, I finally invaded Hanoi. I was surprised at how warmly I was treated. By chance I spent an evening drinking beer with a man whose father was an NVA soldier during the war. His father hated Americans but the man said that was his father’s war and he didn’t hate anyone. I feel the same way but many Vietnam vets don’t. I intend to return to the area in Vietnam where I spent a big piece of my life. This time it will be far south of Hanoi. I hope I am treated as well there as I was in Hanoi.
Best of luck with your writing and keep up the great posts on the global warming scam.
Jesse
“As for the so called “anti-war protesters”, I have never heard anything about them protesting against communists invasions anywhere. Which indicates that it was a pro-communist movement.”
Some were. But most were leftists that didn’t cared about Vietnam one way or the other their propose was local. And Vietnam was a tool to help in their propose to get power to control the lives of others in US.
Btw if Vietnam brought the end of coercive military conscription demanded by the Government and the majority that votes it, when there will be a Fiscal Vietnam that will end the coercive tax conscription by the Government and the majority that votes it?
Or the conscientious objector is only for leftists ?
As to the question of whether the Vietnam war was winnable, the best argument “for” is the Korean war where we managed to obtain a sort of draw. But a look at a map will show how different the situations are. Infiltration into South Vietnam is easier than South Korea because of the geography.
And “winnable” needs to be understood in the context of what the people of a country are willing to do. If the people aren’t willing to fight forever, then a war can be won by the side that is. The US did just fine in pulling out of the war. We won the cold war. This is not the first time a world power has won a war but lost a battle. The British invasion of Turkey didn’t turn out so well but the British were nevertheless on the winning side of the first world war.
I’m reading the book on the politics of the Vientam war started by McGeorge Bundy, a Republican who worked for Kenedy and Johnson and who generally argued in favor of escalation. It seems clear that the military didn’t have a reasonable plan at any time during the war and that the politicians kept the thing going as a way of postponing the pain of pulling out until after the “next” election.
The problem with wars is that the “masses” are too easily led down that primrose path without critical examination or protest. Being from the ’60’s, I didn’t approve of the war but I wasn’t upset at the soldiers either as they were just doing what they had to do, sometimes to extremes because of circumstance or fear. Except for the “war mongers” I consider them all heroes (this is excepting LBJ/officer core running the show who in my opinion made too many negligent mistakes). I also don’t begrudge the ones that left for Canada, as you have said, they were following their conscience and at least remained mostly undamaged. The problem is that the general public is either not interested or too easily accepts that the leadership is always correct out of misguided “patriotism” and as a result provides little negative feedback until things have gone completely to hell.
One of the things I miss from that period are the muscle cars (unfortunately I’ve outgrown them). I owned a ’66 GTO which I later traded for a ’70 Dodge Charger R/T 440 HP. That was a fairly reliable car under power and unlike say a Mustang, had an extra rear suspension leaf to prevent wheel hop. It was also power balanced well from the factory as on dry pavement it would lay 2 black lines without excessive wheel spin or smoke. It was also not uncommon at that time to short distance drag race in the country side for money (although I only did it occasionally just for fun/no cash). One guy with a hopped up Camero coated his engine with a light layer of grease and dust to make it look beatable and won often.
One day I was at a 4 lane red light, left lane, when a Chevelle SS pulled up in the right lane, romped his engine and waved his hand forward to signal a desire to race. Now this was a crowded street with a fair amount of traffic and there was no way that I was going to do that. But I gave him a nod any way just to tease him. A few seconds later I looked over and he happened to be looking at/talking to his passenger. Sensing an opportune moment, I held the brake (automatic) and revved my engine. He immediately jump started intending to race and then realized that the light was still red. I imagine it was rather embarrassing to be part way out in traffic with cars having to pull around, especially when the car behind him pulled forward to prevent a backup.
On another occasion I was driving home at night when a Thunderbird pulled beside wanting to race (night time is another bad idea as one cannot tell where a patrol car might be). Again I gunned it for a short distance to be rid of him but then passed him soon on the Interstate ramp, yes, stopped by a patrol car.
Now I was young and doing this kind of thing was somewhat risky, but even then I tried my best to minimize my odds for an accident. I would also occasionally do risky endeavors if I considered the pleasure of the event worth the trade off. But that is the disconcerting thing, that there are so many that take, or support, high level risks without any critical consideration at all. One thing that would help is to have required courses in logic and critical thinking starting in high school. But I suspect the reason that these courses don’t exist is that a thinking populace would hinder politicians excessively.
Between North and South there was a race of people who had a real stake in that war. They fought for survival, and they were largely exterminated. For them there was no grand ideological philosophy, simply survival.
They lost, and if ever they were known, are now long forgotten. Those who fought with them bear the scars. I know one of these people. I don’t think they would have a problem with w.
Time has a way of changing the narrative. We all want to be heroes. Few want to remember how it really was.
Fortunately for me, somebody was honest with self, the universe and me.
I thank him every chance I get.