NASA’s Dr. James Hansen once again goes over the top. See his most recent article in the UK Guardian. Some excerpts:
“The trains carrying coal to power plants are death trains. Coal-fired power plants are factories of death.”
And this:
Clearly, if we burn all fossil fuels, we will destroy the planet we know. Carbon dioxide would increase to 500 ppm or more.
Only one problem there Jimbo, CO2 has been a lot higher in the past. Like 10 times higher.
From JS on June 21, 2005:
One point apparently causing confusion among our readers is the relative abundance of CO2 in the atmosphere today as compared with Earth’s historical levels. Most people seem surprised when we say current levels are relatively low, at least from a long-term perspective – understandable considering the constant media/activist bleat about current levels being allegedly “catastrophically high.” Even more express surprise that Earth is currently suffering one of its chilliest episodes in about six hundred million (600,000,000) years.
Given that the late Ordovician suffered an ice age (with associated mass extinction) while atmospheric CO2 levels were more than 4,000ppm higher than those of today (yes, that’s a full order of magnitude higher), levels at which current ‘guesstimations’ of climate sensitivity to atmospheric CO2 suggest every last skerrick of ice should have been melted off the planet, we admit significant scepticism over simplistic claims of small increment in atmospheric CO2 equating to toasted planet. Granted, continental configuration now is nothing like it was then, Sol’s irradiance differs, as do orbits, obliquity, etc., etc. but there is no obvious correlation between atmospheric CO2 and planetary temperature over the last 600 million years, so why would such relatively tiny amounts suddenly become a critical factor now?
Adjacent graphic ‘Global Temperature and Atmospheric CO2 over Geologic Time’ from Climate and the Carboniferous Period (Monte Hieb, with paleomaps by Christopher R. Scotese). Why not drop by and have a look around?
In the Uk Guardian article, Hanson referrs to the the pollution caused by coal powered generation specificaly in the form of Mercury, Arsnic, sulfur, etc. Others have mentioned the handling of the ash from the coal powered power plants.
I wonder how many realize that the same “bad actors” are also pollutants that have to be dealt with for many of the so called “clean green” renewable energy sources. Anyone who works around the cellulosic fuel sources knows that collection of the very same pollutants is a challenge. Scrubbers are required in many instances as least from my experience. Think about all the ash you have left when your burn a log in your fireplace. If you are going to process wood, grass, etc many of the very same elements and compounds are present as with coal. Simarily think of the challenge when municipal solid waste is the feedstock with all the “cats and dogs” in your trash.
It’s time to end the myth of “clean green” fuels.
I notice that the chart linked to Smokey’s 18:47:47 post shows the cold periods getting colder from the past to the LIA. Sure hope that pattern gets broken.
Bill Illis 17:00:22
You state: “He (Hansen) could be right that the deep oceans are absorbing some of the increased temperature right now and once they catch up, the warming will be higher than the current trends indicate”
Please find the link below. A very well distributed set of ocean temp monitoring devices indicates that there has been no increase in ocean temperatures over the last 5-1/2 years. This during a period when 21st century is purportedly setting record high temperatures every year. Where’s the heat? Probably being measured as the effect of UHI.
http://climatesci.org/2009/02/13/article-by-josh-willis-is-it-me-or-did-the-oceans-cool-a-lesson-on-global-warming-from-my-favorite-denier/
Smokey (18:47:47) :
Rachel:
“Warmer is better” is just banal nonsense.
Rachel isn’t up to speed. Maybe this will help: click
Human civilization always does better when it’s warmer.
– –
….. and, therefore, if you are atoning for the sin of being born a civilized human, “Warmer is better” is just banal nonsense.
Jeeez Smokey, get with the program.
Thanks for the figure by the way – very informative. The guy who was looking for good graphics yesterday or the day before (Ben?) should add that one into his presentation if he didn’t already. I now have it in my ammo belt.
For all the oltimers of my age in NorCal…
I think it’s time we stop, children.
whats that sound,
everybody look whats goin down.
I remember reading that the CO2 concentration necessary in our alveoli in order to be able to have an oxygen exchange in the lungs is enormous, in the thousands of ppm.
Unfortunately I did not bookmark the link. Here is what I found in a yahoo search:
Human respiration and CO2
http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/301notes6.htm
except the numbers are in partial pressures . Nevertheless , when we see that
CO2 is on par with oxygen we can guess the ballpark,
Partial Pressures of O2 and CO2 in the body (normal, resting conditions):
* Alveoli
o PO2 = 100 mm Hg
o PCO2 = 40 mm Hg
* Alveolar capillaries
o Entering the alveolar capillaries
+ PO2 = 40 mm Hg (relatively low because this blood has just returned from the systemic circulation & has lost much of its oxygen)
+ PCO2 = 45 mm Hg (relatively high because the blood returning from the systemic circulation has picked up carbon dioxide)
So, much higher concentrations of CO2 than the ones found now or projected in the sci fi future are needed for humans ( and animals) to breath.
If we trust evolutionary theory, what better proxy to tell us that life evolved when CO2 was much higher than any imaginable future projection, human induced or not?
How can any educated person believe in the bogeyman ?
“If we assume that the AGW hypothesis is correct, then Mars with its atmosphere of 90% CO2, should be a tropical paradise. Why is that not the case?”
That’s pretty funny. None of the deniers helped this poor soul out. Perhaps they don’t understand why he is so wrong. Perhaps they were embarrassed by him and preferred to just ignore him.
To all the people talking as if direct toxicity of CO2 had ever been a concern in this context – by affecting to misunderstand, you make yourself look very stupid. Why are you doing this?
REPLY: Please don’t use the terms “deniers”. You are painting a broad brush based on your own biases. Why is it that labels must be hurled at people you disagree with? – Anthony
Robert: there was no such heat wave in 2006, which had only a few hot days (believe me, I’m not far).
Concerning the CO2 thing: yeah, right, it was 2 times higher 50 millions years ago, and contrary to what the author seems to insinuate, every (paleo)geologist knows that. The question is: how many human beings were on earth at that time?
Roddy Baird (19:23:46) :
“The blanket authoritarian collectivist approach that underlies the Alarmist agenda is the most horrific death train in history, as proved by the bloody inhumanity of the 20th Century. If there ever has been a time when we need to learn from history, this is it.”
Post of the millenia! (And bear in mind that I never, ever exaggerate.)
Roddy Baird,
I get the shivers when people start talking of a “Movement” and propose the introduction of a “Civil Army” with the same equipment as the regular army.
If such intentions coincide with a call for “Change”, death trains, death factories and
plans of Greening the Society based on quick decissions, I feel trouble is ahead.
Now this all coincides with a huge Global Economic Crises, calls for control and rumors of a World Government, I know trouble is ahead.
Capitalism and the free market has encountered a set back because greedy an irresponsible people drained the system.
But it was tested as the most effective and liberal system of all.
The Communist System has killed millions of people in the former USSR under Lenin and Stalin, in China under Mao, in Cambodja, under Pol-Pot and still in North Korea.
Many of us will remember the satellite image of North and South Korea by night.
South Korea was lit in a flood of light. North Korea was dark, people still with fear and hungry.
The National Socialists, during the “Depression”, started as a “Movement” in Germany and resulted in WWII and the Holocaust.
People should know that Naturalism, the forebare of Environmentalism has it’s roots
within the National Socialist Ideology.
Modern environmentalists put Nature before Human interests and civilization.
This is an unacceptable development especially because “Green Parties” all over the world have gained political power and access to massive financial resources.
We now see prominent people like Al Gore and James Hanson bombarding the people with scary stories and publicly promoting the possibility of terrorist attacks on our Carbon Fuel infrastructure.
Hansen even flew to London to testify in favor of extreme environmentalists who made an attack on a Coal Plant.
Not so long ago any attempt to damage or attack the energy infra structure of the USA or Great Britain would have been considered an “Act of Treason against the State” and now these guys get away with it.
This is not a fantasy, this is fact.
People have forgotten about history in times where knowledge of our past is crucial to our future.
Authoritarian Collectivism is nothing more but an ideology comparable to the well tested but flunked Communist and Socialist Systems and it is now upon us.
Our Democratic System are used to provide Environmentalists with political power and almost unlimited access to funding.
The repressive system that follows has to be fought in order to regain our freedom once again.
I really hope we are still in a position to make choices without losing our freedom and independence but looking at current developments I have the idea we have already lost it.
And if you ask why I think we have lost it…
because sensible arguments do not count anymore.
Apart from that graph being pure fiction, you’re missing the point, spectacularly.
No, no, let’s get back to that “pure fiction” bit. What part of it is pure fiction? What part is incorrect?
More hysteria:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/14/AR2009021401757_pf.html
layne:
“Now that the IPCC has admitted only minor ocean rise as a result, how is it that a few degrees change then brings man’s obliteration?”
A sacred AGW Commandment answers:
Because, Infidel, regardless of its cause, GW always and only produces various kinds of net disasters, including increases in colder weather events. GW is baaad. [What’s the matter with you, don’t you ever read the ipcc, enc.’s, Peer Reviewed articles?]
And after a few more simple postulates from AGW Apostles, it also results that, “Humans must work diligently toward their own extinction, or else go extinct!”
“Yea, verily, It is Written.”
The argument whether our CO2 was higher in the geological past, or not, can be settled by a very simple argument. All the fossil fuel that we are burning was derived by photosynthesis of atmospheric CO2. By burning fossil fuel, we are merely returning a small fraction of sequestered atmospheric CO2 to its original location. CO2 released by volcanic and tectonic activity is merely releasing CO2 sequestered by carbonate formation, so it is again a return of atmospheric CO2 to its original location. Obviously finding and extracting fossil fuel is an inefficient process, so we can only return a relatively small fraction of the captured CO2 to the atmosphere.
Robert Bateman
I too have used Draeger tubes. Great invention.
On CO2, if I recall my human biology correctly, CO2 is not only NOT dangerous (at reasonable levels) but is actually required. Carbon Dioxide (CO2) is the body’s regulator of the breathing function. Hyperventilation or deep breathing,, may actually leave you feeling breathless.
When you breathe, you inhale oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide. Excessive breathing may lead to low levels of carbon dioxide in your blood, which causes many symptoms including dizziness or lightheadedness, shortness of breath, belching, bloating, dry mouth, weakness, confusion, sleep disturbances, numbness and tingling in your arms or around your mouth, muscle spasms in hands and feet, chest pain, and palpitations.
My Mom had this condition and her doctor had her breathing using a paper bag to increase the CO2 she was breathing. (Neat trick)
Interesting that information on breathing and CO2 is pretty sparse on the internet. Of course it is pretty hard to make a bad guy out of a chemical required for plant AND animal life if the sheeple have access to the info.
Consider the actual data on CO2:
Compare 39,500 ppm (3.95%) with monthly mean carbon dioxide measured at Mauna Loa Observatory, Hawaii of 386 ppm.
i.e. if atmospheric CO2 increased by 10200% (102 times) we might notice some metabolic effects – as in a slight lowering of available O2 and need to breath a little faster.
@Flanagan (22:34:01) :
Oh yes there was, France, Sweden, Belgium (2x), The Netherlands, Ireland, Denmark and the UK had official heatwaves as defined by the meteorological institutes like the KNMI in the Netherlands.
2006 was the only that the “four day marches of Nijmegen” where cancelled because of the heat, 2 people died of a heat-stroke and hundreds more where taken to hospital.
Rachel,
Anyone who has lived in the deserts of the southwest U.S. knows that high temperatures won’t kill you, provided you pay attention to hydration. I lived and worked in 100F+ temps each summer for 12 years, and I’m still here to tell about it some 20 years later. It’s even possible to perform hard physical labor in higher temps than that, and people who worked around the furnace we pelletized iron ore with (120F+ temps) for 8 hour and longer workshifts can attest to it.
Sudden extreme temperature changes (hotter or colder) that we are unprepared for, and unacclimated to, can kill, however.
Now I get it, James Hansen is the George Carling of AGW.
What a jester!
Flanagan (22:34:01) :
Robert: there was no such heat wave in 2006, which had only a few hot days (believe me, I’m not far).
Concerning the CO2 thing: yeah, right, it was 2 times higher 50 millions years ago, and contrary to what the author seems to insinuate, every (paleo)geologist knows that. The question is: how many human beings were on earth at that time?”
Flanagan
I think we all know there were no human beings on this planet 50 million years ago, despite your rhetorical question. However, our direct ancestors, small mammals, certainly were alive then and these animals were adapted to whatever CO2 conditions were like at that time, assuming twice as high is in the ballpark. These animals had lungs and breathed similarly to us. So what’s your point? My point is that our ancestors were alive then and survived and thrived. Do you think anatomically modern humans would shrivel up and die in 2 x current CO2 levels? I seriously doubt it and there is plenty of evidence man can survive much higher levels than these without ill effects. Sorry, I’m not buying your brand of alarmism.
Regarding deaths from cold, Portugal suffers from the highest rates of excess winter mortality (28%) followed jointly by Spain (21%), and Ireland (21%). The colder countries such as Germany, Sweden, Finland, etc have lower percentages because their housing and heating systems are built for the cold climate. However the difference between heat and cold related deaths is 15 times for cold related deaths. The last yearly figure I saw for cold related excess deaths in Euope was 1.5 million.
What is frightening is the the UK saw a 7% increase in winter deaths last year. I wonder what it will be this year? Why? Because of the 51% increase in th price of heating oil, gas and electricity since 2005. Why? Increased prices to combat global warming.
The huge death toll from the heatwave in Europe occured for a number of reasons but lack of air conditioning was a big one. These people were ederly and not able to afford the electricity, again because of the increased price to combat global warming. During the recent heat wave in Australia, smart meters turned off power for air conditioning, again to combat global warming. Lets not forget that the people who died were prevented from clearing trees around their houses by the greens.
When we put all these numbers together, the death roll from the environmental moverment is 200 Million and rising.
If you want to bring some perspective in the discussion of CO2, have a look at this short youtube presentation:
It states that a car driving at a speed of 30 mph produces the same amount of CO2 as a cyclist at full speed.
It also states that the population of Great Britain is producing much more CO2 by breathing as all powerplants, traffic and aircraft put together.
Who is going to verify the figures?
Hansen complains that the public cannot tell the difference between top-notch science and pseudo-science. We can though, Jimbo; its just that we see pseudo-science where you claim top-notch. And vice versa.
It annoys me that people don’t know how long we’ve been here. Should we blame ‘The Flintstones’? For the record then, we’ve been here about 1.8 million years (yes, that’s all!). Of course, it all depends on what you name “we” but it’s still around that figure dependent on what you class as human.
To grasp:
Imagine the history of the Earth is a line 450 kilometres long, then your lifetime would be 8mm, and humans would have got here just less than 200 metres away.
Kind of puts us in persepective, doesn’t it? I’ve found religious people don’t like this fact.
I notice Anthony is in the business of gagging posts he finds inconvenient – after all pointing out that a poster is misleading people on this blog with the omission of numerous facts is unhelpful to “sceptic” discussion.
The solar constant has increased dramatically over the period of the graph which in combination with changes in CO2 explains most of the evolution of temperature.
Once again, a simple example of inconvenient facts getting in the way of a “good sceptic story”.
Since the subject came up, and it is something we should never forget:
Source List and Detailed Death Tolls for the Twentieth Century Hemoclysm
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Second