The Maldives are sinking – and we aren’t talking about sea level

Whoo boy. Nutso times in the Maldives. I guess the president wasn’t bringing in enough cargo cult money for the sea level “send us money we’re sinking” scam being perpetrated on the world. I said previously that Mohamed Nasheed’s claims were BS because while El Presidente was asking for money to “save” the Maldives from sea level rise, claiming “Carbon dioxide emissions are going to kill us,”, they were building new resorts and airports for the tourists.

Maldives leader ousted ‘at gunpoint’

By Reuters, Malé

The ousted president of the Maldives, credited with bringing democracy to the Indian Ocean islands, said yesterday he had been forced out of power at gunpoint, prompting clashes between police and angry supporters.

Police tried to break up the protests with tear gas and baton charges as former president Mohamed Nasheed’s party said he too was “beaten” by police.

“Yes, I was forced to resign at gunpoint,” Mr Nasheed told reporters following his party meeting a day after his resignation.

The political tumult, like most of everday Maldivian life, was far from the tourists who stream to the chain of mainly coral islands, seeking sun and sand at resorts that can command $1,000 a night.

Full story at the Financial Times.

Looks like they have bigger problems now than imagined sea level rise, like rioting in the streets. Whoops, there goes the tourist season, I can hear the phones ringing at travel agencies worldwide.

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42 thoughts on “The Maldives are sinking – and we aren’t talking about sea level

  1. I believe what he means by “beaten by the police” is “they caught me committing fraud, fair and square”, not a physical thing.

  2. “beaten by the police” in this context means “caught red-handed”, much as Bernie Madoff was beaten by the justice system.

  3. More likely something to do with this:
    The Maldives last week ordered all resorts to close their spas. A conservative Muslim party had claimed the facilities were being used as brothels. The tourism industry vehemently denied the claim and pointed out that any ban on spas would be ruinous for the economy.

    Six days later, the Maldives president lifted a ban, saying investigations had established they were not being used for prostitution after all.

  4. “Barry Woods says:
    February 8, 2012 at 11:07 am

    like him or not.. this could be big problems for democracy in the Maldives..

    Democracy concerns me more than climate change..”

    Not really this is more “democracy in action”… 1 person, 1 vote, 1 time…. democracy is a horrible system and sane people want to be as far away from it as possible.

  5. Barry Woods says:
    February 8, 2012 at 11:07 am
    Democracy concerns me more than climate change..

    Ultimately climate change is being used to get rid of personal freedom. It is about control. Control of what kind, how much and at what cost you can get energy. If I can control all that I can control you.

    Look at the [way] Russia controls the gas to Europe. It is used as a sword over there heads.

  6. Love the spa closing comment. The Muslims, of course, simply do not like the idea of women no being completely covered around other men. They claimed prostitution, when they wish they could simply enface Sharia Law.

  7. Coral islands: they grew there in the first place (in shallow water on subsurface volcanoes) and will continue go grow with any sinking of land or rising of seas.

  8. I received an ‘Urgent’ email from Bill McKibben of 350dot org.
    as follows:

    “President Mohamed Nasheed of the Maldives, a friend and ally of the
    climate movement, is in danger, and when our friends need our help, we
    respond. Sign on to tell world leaders to do what they can to keep him and
    his people safe.

    Dear friends,
    Our fight is a global fight, and early this morning one of our greatest
    allies, Maldives President Mohamed Nasheed, was ousted in a military coup.
    He’s under house arrest at the moment and could be in serious danger.
    [3]We’re collecting signatures on a petition that we will deliver to key
    secretaries of state and foreign ministers to make sure there’s pressure
    on the coup leaders to keep President Nasheed safe.

    On our action page, you’ll see a video of President Nasheed at the
    Copenhagen climate talks–it was one of the great moments of the 350
    movement. We also pasted an account of the coup from inside the
    government. Click Get More Info on the page for both. The Maldives was on
    course to become the world’s first carbon-neutral nation, a beacon for the
    rest of the planet; but for the moment, all that matters is the safety of
    our dear friend and his colleagues.

    Days like today remind us how hard this fight will be, and how many
    setbacks we’ll see on the way. They also remind us that we need solidarity
    above all else. If you’re a praying person, include Pres. Nasheed and his
    family in your prayers. We know that all of you are action people–[4]so
    here’s that sign-on link again.

    With respect,
    Bill McKibben and the 350.org team.”

    Having heard this guy in the flesh he’s just like any telly-evangelist.

    However:
    Autonomous_Mind tweet: (thanks Josh)
    @mark_lynas 1st, he resigned after protests at arrest of a judge. 2nd, the VP took control. 3rd, he has been released and has gone home.

  9. With regards to Mr Nasheed’s resignation, it hardly surprising the country’s general leadership forced the issue given Mr. Nasheed had unconstitutionally ordered the arrest of the Chief Judge Mohamed for releasing a government critic (i.e. a political prisoner jailed by Mr. Nasheed’s cronies).

    One must consider that Maldives Supreme Court and the Judicial Services Commission said Judge Mohamed’s arrest was unlawful and called for his release. Moreover, one cannot fault the police or the army for rebelling against Mr. Nasheed’s unconstitutional actions. (For facts see “Fall from grace for Maldives’ democratic crusader” by Olivia Long at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16925741)

    Lacking any constitutional authority for jailing critics I would hardly describe Mr. Nasheed as a “democratic crusader”. The issue of how Maldives should be governed, however, I leave the people of that nation to settle among themselves.

    With the regard to issue of any threat of the Maldives “sinking” due to climate change. I would suggest there is solid scientific evidence that sea levels surrounding the Maldives are not rising. Indeed there is good evidence Maldives sea levels have decreased by 20-30 cm (8-12 inches) over the last thirty years. And, moreover, that Maldives sea levels were 50-60 cm (20-24 inches) higher 1000 to 800 years ago.

    For evidence supporting this assertion I would suggest one read: “New Perspectives for the future of the Maldives” by Mörner N.-A.; Tooley M., Possnert, G (7 May 2003).

    You can find the study at the Wikipedia link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maldives . Just go down to Source 21 and pick up the PDF. The report is also available on line at http://www.sciencedriect.com [Global and Planetary Change 40 (2004) 177-182]

    In the discussion the paper states:

    “In the IPCC scenarios, the Maldives were condemned to disappear in the sea in the near future (e.g. Hoffman et al., 1983; IPCC, 2001). Our documentation of actual field evidence contradicts this hypothesis.

    Tide gauge data have been cited in support of an on-going rise of mean sea level (Singh et al., 2001). Tide gauge records, however, do not provide simple and straight-forward measures of regional eustatic sea level. They are often (not to say usually) dominated by the effects of local compaction and local loading subsidence. With this perspective, our multiple morphological and sedimentological records appear more reliable and conclusive. Besides, satellite altimetry does not record any significant rise in global sea level in the last decades (Morner, 2003a, Fig. 2). In order fully to investigate the situation, however, available tide gauge records, now extending from 1990 to 2002, were re-examined. This reveals a total absence of any rising secular trend (Morner, 2003b).

    A recent sea level fall of the order of 20 to 30 cm in the last 30 years is most surprising. Both rates (>10 mm/year) and amplitudes (20 to 30 cm) are much higher than expected. This sea level fall must represent a regional eustatic change confined to the central Indian Ocean. In the central Indian Ocean, eustatic sea level lies well below the geoid surface because of an exceptionally high rate of evaporation (Morner, 2000). Therefore, if this evaporation increases further, sea level will fall regionally (i.e. just as recorded in this
    paper).

    We, therefore, propose that the sea level regression recorded in our observational data is the effect of increased evaporation. This fits with an increase of the NE-monsoon in the last decades as recorded in so many islands; not least in Addu Atoll. It seems significant that Pfeiffer et al. (2001) recorded a marked environmental change at about 1970 in the stable isotopes of corals from the Chagos Islands (south of the Maldives). They interpreted this in terms of decreased precipitation linked to the monsoonal circulation.”

    The paper concludes:

    “In the region of the Maldives, a general fall of sea level occurred some 30 years ago. The origin of this sea level fall is likely to be an increased evaporation over the central Indian Ocean linked to an intensification of the NE-monsoon.

    Furthermore, there seems no longer to be any reasons to condemn the Maldives to become flooded in the near future.

    Besides, at about 1000–800 BP, the people of the Maldives survived a higher sea level by about
    50–60 cm.”

    Regards,
    Kforestcat

  10. temp says: “Not really this is more “democracy in action”… 1 person, 1 vote, 1 time…. democracy is a horrible system and sane people want to be as far away from it as possible.”

    Democracy has failed because our “democratically elected” leaders are corrupt all over the world and their strings are being pulled by corporations and radical groups.

    The people run the system all right, but only those people with obscene amounts of money. Voting is now just another scheme to placate the masses and give us the feeling that we matter. In actuality we don’t matter, and our “choices” of leaders we are given to vote for are a joke of the highest order.

  11. I knew him in Liverpool – we were at the Poly, now Liverpool John Moores University – graduaing in 1989. Then, he seemed most unlikely to be on the graft. His predecessor as President [30 years in the job and (probably) never rigged an election] one Gayoom, might have been – but Mo? – well, not the Mo I knew in Liverpool.
    More a bit of a Mr. Clean, I thought. He was dead set on politics, even then.
    Bit nutty about the cabinet meetings underwater – but did that get publicity? or not?
    Do hope he doesn’t get ‘disappeared’ by the losers of the last election [Gayoom's cronies/mob/old pals, etc.], or beaten to a cabbage.

  12. The whole ‘climate refugees’ story about the Maldives – and the supposed need for Climate Funds to support this exodus – probably has something to do with the fact that the Maldives has one of the highest population densities of any country in the world, and an economy that won’t support them.

    Must laugh at the McKibben letter. Did he also send condolences when Little Kim, that champion of low CO2 emissions and energy conservation for the ‘little people,’ died in North Korea?

  13. Like many politicians in weak democracies or autocracies, Nasheed relied on populism. Getting billions of compensation for a non-problem is every populist’s dream – to give away money, without the pain of higher taxes, rising deficits or higher inflation. He should be credited with his creativity. Those at fault are the alarmists who gave such nonsense credibility.

  14. If you are vacationing in ANY place called the “Islamic Republic of _______,” you should know what you are getting into. In 2011, maldives banned the display of crosses. Religion of Peace and all.

  15. The French Revolution was democracy in action.

    The Democratic People’s Republic of [place the name of your favorite thugocracy here] . . . Get it?

    Democracy has little meaning without personal liberties and the rule of law, the two things which are most often sacrificed in the name of democracy.

  16. I am married to a Maldivian and lived there for a couple of years. My children have had schooling there. It is a lovely place with lovely people. People eventually got so sick of the former President, Maumoon, after 30 years and got the courage to force him to free elections. Unfortunately, one reaction to electoral freedom was the creation of too many political parties. Over time most will disappear and the most relevant will remain. Do remember that Maumoon was also on the sea level rise gravy train and, despite the internal wealth in the country, managed to keep underdeveloped nation status for a long time, guaranteeing a flow of aid money, which was rarely audited and managed by the aid provider. Queue corruption.

    Nasheed is an odd character in many ways. He was prominent in opposing Maumoon and is not corrupt in a ‘money’ sense. However, like a lot of politicians (and certain climate scientists) he is a bit of a sociopath I think. He seems to like being everyone’s friend. He thinks he is right. He makes odd decisions and I think gets hurt when others don’t see things as he does. My wife, talking to a friend of his from school, said he is the same as then. I personally did not see him as emotionally mature. He has little to complain about now. He jailed a judge who criticised his government. This led to conflict and strikes with the police, who eventually had a standoff with the army (NSS). Nasheed was forced to resign by the circumstances of his own actions. He does not appear to be “ousted at gunpoint” in any manner.
    Nasheed, in his boyish “spirit of inclusiveness”, had, as his presidential running mate, Waheed, who is from a different party. So surprise surprise, he resigns and under the constitution, the vice-president is sworn in! Which is what is supposed to happen in such events. BTW, most Maldivians I know were embarrassed and ashamed of the puerile underwater cabinet meeting incident and most I have spoken to do not see sea level rise as a threat.

    For people like higley7 above, Maldivians mostly ascribe to Islam and would self describe as Muslims – yes. However their personal, religious and political views are wide and diverse. They are a very educated people in general. All education is in English medium in public schools and most private ones. They follow Cambridge curriculum, which the English no longer follow to their loss. All the kids study to O levels (year 10) with most electing to continue study to A levels (11,12). As many as possible try to get a university education and because they needed to go overseas until recently, did have to rely on study aid, in most cases. They perform fantastically in upper education and are often in the top 10 percentile (high marks are highly regarded) as they are study hogs. PhDs are very common now for a population of only 300k. The law is required to be ‘Sharia compliant’ which covers economic, political, social and judicial aspects of Sharia.

    I hope this background gives a little insight in this country and it’s people. They will work through this period and come out of it a bit wiser.

    Patrick

  17. “Religion of peace”? I learned all I need to know on 9/11 when all those millions of muslims stood up and said “Not in my name!” Or maybe not!
    Did any of them speak out?

  18. @Ed Moran
    Did any of them speak out?

    Yes. We did. Why don’t you try actually go talk to a Muslim and find out what he thinks of that kind of action. But perhaps you prefer a consensus – then you have “learned all I need to know”. Kind of like at skepticalscience.

  19. What is it about blogs and Muslim countries which allows commenters to lose their manners and sense of perspective? Like Muslim = fair game. WUWT? FFS.

    WUWT Policy:
    Certain topics are not welcome here and comments concerning them will be deleted. This includes topics on religion, discussions of barycentrism, astrology, chemtrails, 911 Truthers, HAARP, UFO’s, mysticism, and topics not directly related to the thread. A Tips & Notes sections exists for bringing items of interest to attention.

  20. Shouldn’t Bill McKibben be happy about this? After all, if the coup is all about Luddites and those who want to force their religion on everyone else shutting down resorts, surely that will decrease carbon dioxide emissions, which are far more hazardous to mankind (according to Bill) than a few poor people dying in the Maldives. And it’s not like Bill wants said poor people to have access to the energy necessary for development anyway. According to his religious beliefs (a.k.a. 350.org) he should be sending letters to the coup leaders asking them to stop construction of new airports instead.

  21. Greenpeace Press Release February 8, 2012: “As recent events have shown, global warming AKA climate change AKA climate KAOS is real, it’s happening now, and it’s causing the overthrow of enlightened politicians everywhere: in Libya, in Egypt, and even in the Maldives. If unchecked, it will accelerate and could spread even to the USA, where, according to the worst-case scenario of the Nobel-prize-winning IPCC, Nobel Laureate President Obama could be overthrown as soon as November of this year. Please give generously to prevent climate catastrophe.”

  22. Patrick,

    You have to admit that there is a level of frustration with certain mid-east countries by the U.S.A. when there was dancing in the streets in Palestine after 9/11 and Saudis were cheering on the bombing of U.S. compounds a few years ago (like Al Khobar) — until some of their own people got hurt and/or killed (like a Saudi prince) in the process.

    I live in Saudia, and have for several years. Yes, most people are very nice and pro American. But the mideast is a rumor mill and the number of truthers over here as a percentage of population outnumber those in the white house currently.

    It is very frustrating as trutherism is impervious to established facts and logic.

    By law (since 2006), people have been able to worship as they please privately. However, someone forgot to tell that to the Muttawa (religious police) last week when they raided a service of Ethiopian Christians in Jeddah.

  23. Male – Police said on Wednesday a mob had stormed the Maldives national museum and smashed Buddhist statues.
    Problem solved ….

  24. Patrick, “The law is required to be ‘Sharia compliant’ which covers economic, political, social and judicial aspects of Sharia.

    Sharia law requires the dhimma, which is the “contract” that Muslims have with the non-Muslims living among them in an Islamic state. The dhimma requires that Christians and Jews are disallowed from self-protection against any assault by any Muslim at any time. Striking a Muslim, even in self-defense, is a capital crime, enforceable immediately by any Muslim. Christians and Jews are required to wear distinctive clothing, forbidden from riding horses, and required to comport themselves cravenly in public among Muslims. They are required to pay a special head-tax and be publicly humiliated while doing so.

    The Qur’an specifies they have falsified their scriptures, and as religiously convicted liars, the testimony of Christians or Jews has no standing in Islamic courts. To defy any part of the dhimma is to invoke the law of Jihad. This means death. Any Muslim can be the executioner, and the testimony of any two Muslims males is enough to guarantee guilt.

    Separation of religion and state is completely foreign to Sharia law. The distinction doesn’t exist, has no cultural tradition or context in an Islamic society, and makes no sense to a devout Muslim. Only the leader of Islam can be a legitimate head of state. The only fully legitimate ruler, the Khalif, is a descendant of Muhammad from the Arabian tribe of Qurayish.

    Sharia law requires atheists to be given the choice of conversion to Islam or death. Apostasy carries the death penalty. It is a capital crime to convert to any religion except to Islam. Paganism is a capital crime. Muslim women cannot marry non-Muslim men. Nor can they have more than one husband. Nor can they have sex-slaves. A Muslim man can have up to four wives (Muhammad claimed a divine dispensation to have 13 wives), and any number of female slaves/concubines. Adultery is a capital crime. So is homosexuality. So is sex before marriage but not if you’re Muslim male in possession of a female purchased in a slave market or a woman captured during Jihad (effectively, during any war).

    Slavery is specifically permitted in the Qur’an. Muhammad owned slaves and raped his female captives. It’s all right there in his supposed biography, the Sirat Rasul Allah. Since Muhammad was the chosen of God and had God’s advice about everything, he could not make a mistake. His behavior was perfect, and he is the perfect exemplar of the good Muslim man. Therefore, following Muhammad, Sharia law doesn’t just allow slavery and rape, it mandates both as a religious good and describes when they are permissible.

    That describes, but far from exhausts, “compliant with Sharia Law.” I’m sure the Maldivians are polite and charming, well-educated and friendly. But “compliant with Sharia Law” written into the constitution is a wide-open door to religious tyranny on the grandest scale. I’d expect a preponderance of devout Muslims in the Maldives, just as everywhere else, when pressed would not be able to deny that all of the above, required by Sharia, should be instituted in law.

    I’ve debated Muslims on line who insisted that under the dhimma, in their utopian Islamic state, they’d do their duty and protect the “protected people” from abuse, Christians and Jews, and more latterly Hindus. In historical practice, that was never the reality. Persecution was endemic and historically relentless, and effectively destroyed both societies throughout the Middle East and North Africa.

    See for yourself. Also here

  25. By the way, attempting to escape dhimmitude by fleeing an Islamic state is also a capital offense under Sharia. Dhimmis are slaves to the Islamic state. Their ordained religious lot under Islam is to be persecuted. Anything else is an abomination. Human rights for dhimmis, therefore, is blasphemy.

  26. @Pedric
    Here we go again. let me see, I posted about Maldives. Responded with the WUWT site policy re subjects out good host Anthony does not like discussed here. I also wondered why it is that if a Muslim country or someone of Islamic faith is involved, then the commenters feel it is okay to start their denigrating comments, *despite* the site policy.

    Pedric, the only persons who can properly answer your many questions and misinterpretations is a Sheikh al Islam. Go to a decent, large mosque and ask all the questions you want. Frankly, your writing seems more slander and propaganda than fact. Despite being Muslim for 16 years I have never heard anyone state these things. I think you are stuck in some victim mentality. Your problem mate, not mine.

    BTW, This declaration (or fatwa) was issued by the type of scholar I mentioned before. http://en.islamtoday.net/artshow-234-4375.htm

    “A joint declaration on Syria has been issued by 107 leading muslim scholars and intellectuals from nearly every country in the Arab world. Among the many demands that they make is that the Syrian Free Army and all other groups participating in the Syrian resistance must ensure that the rights of Syria’s religious and ethnic minorities and protect them from harm.

    Resolution number 5 reads in part:

    It is their duty to protect the rights of Syria’s religious and ethnic minorities. These minorities have been an integral part of the Syrian people for over a thousand years. They, like everyone else, enjoy full rights of citizenship.”

    Bye Pedric. I hope you can remove the hate from your heart. In the meantime, be careful, or Islam will be one of the ‘centres’ of your life :) (7 Habits of Highly Effective People – Stephen Covey).

  27. I knew the Maldives in the 1960’s as an RAF staging post, RAFGan, and there has been no sinking in 50 odd years. The Maldives is now a fundamentalist Islamic state that still stones women to death for disobeying their husbands so not a good place to live.

  28. But would not the weight of the baubles they can purcahse from money cause greater sinking. Seemes like their way out is renewable consumption. This way then can be true to Gaia and perhaps win a Nobel or two/

  29. Patrick

    I wish to express my appreciation for your sharing your insights on Maldivian culture and on Mr. Nasheed’s personal background. Personally, I found your observations helpful to better understanding the culture, Mr. Nasheed’s personality, and likely circumstances of his resignation.

    Best Regards,
    Kforestcat

  30. Patrick [February 8, 2012 at 4:42 pm] says:

    “What is it about blogs and Muslim countries which allows commenters to lose their manners and sense of perspective? Like Muslim = fair game. WUWT? FFS.”

    Patrick, stop your whining (and your tattle tailing). You know, part of being treated equally and the same as everyone else includes being questioned, criticized and even made fun of. To seek equality but then complain about it when it is uncomfortable is another way of demanding special protected status.

    When I was young, it was perfectly normal to hear endless joking or criticism about black, Italian, Irish, Polish, Jewish, Catholic (etc…). All of it, by today’s standards would make a liberal cry like a baby. But rather than turn us into whimpering little psychiatric patients, it actually toughened our skin.

    So maybe instead of feeling singled out you should instead realize you are now one of the gang. Welcome to the party pal!

  31. Blade, thanks for the advise. Appreciate it. I don’t think I whined but just pointed out the blog policy. However, I should learn that I can’t necessarily change minds by informing and giving information. Cheers

    To you other lot – thanks for making me stronger! :)

    John Marshall, your first sentence is correct and you even have known my father in law there as he headed up the local labour on Gan. Your second sentence is very incorrect. I’ll treat it as a mistake. The judaic and islamic law for stoning refers to adultery. There is no juristic punishment for disobedience.
    Pedric – you are already a slave – to your prejudices! Enjoy the servitude boyo. Big hug :)

    And now to the weather …

  32. Patrick, you’re the one who raised the issue of “Sharia compliant” law, noting further that it covered “economic, political, social and judicial aspects of Sharia,” which means all of everyone’s life.

    You went on to complain about a “Muslim = fair game” attitude.

    Given your publicized views, it seemed only fair to let that public know what “Sharia compliant” means, and what the game really is between the Islamic society supported by devout Muslims everywhere, and everyone else.

    FYI, my library has three translations of the Qur’an, including Yusuf Ali’s which includes his commentary. I have Guillaume’s translation of the Sirat Rasul Allah, Gätje’s “The Qur’an and its Exegesis,” Wensinick’s “The Muslim Creed,” Ali Dashti’s “23 Years,” and Hughes’ “Dictionary of Islam.”

    I have copies of scholarly articles about the origin and exegesis of Islam, and have consulted writings of Ibn Tamiyya, az-Zamakhshari, and other jurists. I have access to a good academic library where I’ve consulted Hanna Kassis’ Concordance of the Qur’an to find the real meaning of Arabic usage, and the Encyclopedia of Islam.

    Plus lots more. But you get the idea. I don’t need to consult a shaykh to understand Islam. In fact, I’d be sure to *not* consult a shaykh because his explanations would be miscast by his own biases, plus his ideas about what I should be told. To be fair, I’d not consult a priest about the meaning of the Inquisition, either, or a Lutheran minister about Martin Luther’s call to imprison and exterminate all the Jews.

    My comments about Sharia law are accurate and to the point. They are supported by historical fact and by the rulings of Islamic jurists right up through to the present. None of it is slander, denigrating, or propaganda.

    In your link, the “rights” of minorities is not defined. Islamic countries have refused to sign the UN Declaration of Human Rights. The Organization of the Islamic Conference has instead issued its own “Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam,” which subordinates human rights to Sharia Law. For example, “Life is a God-given gift and … it is prohibited to take away life except for a shari’ah prescribed reason.

    Sharia prescribed reasons include Jihad against non-Muslims, apostasy, blasphemy, adultery, atheism, paganism, etc., etc., etc. There are no rights under Sharia. There’s only sufferance at the interpretational whim of the nearest authority — that all too often being the most bloody-minded of the local shaykhs.

    I doubt that any of your linked 107 Muslim scholars would repudiate word one of the Islamic Declaration. That, for rights under Islam. They don’t exist.

    I’ve debated many Muslims on Islam and, when confronted with a staid rendition of the oppressions and violations of Islam, almost invariably they’d resort to the “hate” card just as you have done. It’s the Islamic equivalent of the Mannian ‘oil-funded stooge’ canard made against AGW skeptics — the demagogic tactic of choice to short-circuit any legitimate airing of countervailing fact.

    Just to round off the discussion, most people don’t know that Islam divides the world into the dar al-Harb and the dar al-Islam — the house of war and the house of Islam. The house of war is anywhere that Islam does not rule. The laws of Jihad govern those lands. Where Islam has ruled for any time at all is considered irremediably Muslim land. So, Spain and Portugal are viewed as illicit occupiers of Islamic lands. Likewise Israel. Likewise Greece, Bulgaria, Hungary, and Romania. The law of Jihad applies first and foremost to them.

    Islam inherited 4.5 of the 6 most civilized societies of its day: Egypt, greater Syria, Persia, northern India, and later Byzantium, leaving only China, southern India, and later, Europe.

    Egypt and Syria were high civilized literate societies for 3000 years prior to Islam. No matter the comings and goings of conquerors, the civilizations persevered unbroken. But Islam reduced them all to backwardness, including Egypt and greater Syria, Persia, and northern India, now Pakistan and Bangladesh.

    This is not slander or propaganda. It’s both a present and a historical fact — an observable right before our eyes. Speaking a very unpleasant truth is not about hate.

    Islam has destroyed everything it has touched; from the lives of individuals, to the opportunity for free thought, right up to entire civilizations. To point that out is a mercy to those imprisoned by Islam; most particularly to Muslims themselves.

    To understand why, in large part, one can read Pervez Hoodbhoy’s “Islam and Science,” Ibn Warraq’s “Why I Am Not a Muslim,” and Bat Ye’or’s “The Dhimmi.”

    [Moderator's Note: This has gotten rather far from the topic of the thread. It is a complex issue and will not be resolved in a few comments. Can we agree that this will be the last word on this topic here? -REP]

  33. Patrick, “The judaic and islamic law for stoning refers to adultery.

    That’s reassuring, is it? Only Islamic states still require it and only Muslims still support it.

    There is no juristic punishment for disobedience.

    Sura 4:34, “Men have authority over women because God has made one superior to the other … Good women are obedient. … As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them, send them to beds apart and beat them. Then, if they obey you, take no further action against them.”

    Here’s a “modern commentary“, “Beating is to be done after due admonition and separation in beds and therefore by husbands who have some moral standards and have sufficient control over their sexual passions. Moreover, this beating is not to go on and on but is to be tried as a last step to save the marriage. … [T]to be effective in its purpose of shaking the wife out of her nasty mood it is important that [the beating] should provide an energetic demonstration of the anger, frustration and love of the husband.

    Wafa Sultan, Noni Darwish, and others on Women and Islam (Youtube video). Apologists for Islam have no moral or ethical standing.

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