Open Thread #3

I’m off this weekend and part of next week– talk quietly and politely amongst yourselves. Don’t make me come back here.

open_thread

If you have something worth posting on the front page, flag a moderator.  Those that want to do guest posts are welcome to do so also. Again, flag a moderator for attention. I’ll update when I can but I have quite a busy schedule in the next week that will keep me offline for extended periods.

– Anthony

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205 Responses to Open Thread #3

  1. Cindy says:

    I love open threads!

    I’ve noticed there are agw groups who gather together to talk about their worries and goals.

    Are there any groups like this for the WUWT crowd?

  2. Eddie Murphy says:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/6554952/UN-food-summit-fails-before-it-begins.html

    UN food summit ‘fails before it begins’ Excerpts:

    The leaked World Food Summit draft declaration falls short of a UN goal of eradicating hunger by 2025. Instead, leaders are expected to to sign a watered down declaration in Rome next week that calls for vague increases in aid for farmers in poor countries but sets no targets or deadlines for action.

    The UN’s Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO), which is organising the three day conference, had hoped to win a clear promise from rich countries to increase the amount they give each year in agricultural aid from $7.9 billion (£4.8 billion) to $44 billion.

    “It’s a tragedy that the world leaders are not going to attend the summit,” said Daniel Berman of Medecins Sans Frontières . Aid groups said the summit was a missed opportunity to tackle malnutrition, which kills a child every six seconds, despite the fact that the world produces a surplus of food. Cereal crops this year are expected to be the second largest ever, after a record harvest in 2008.

    According to FAO, the number of hungry people rose this year to 1.02 billion people, as a result of the global economic crisis, high food and fuel prices, drought and conflict.

    “This scourge is not just a moral outrage and economic absurdity, but also represents a threat for our peace and security,” said FAO’s director, Jacques Diouf, who will embark on a 24 hour fast on Saturday to show solidarity with the world’s hungry.

  3. Andrew says:

    450 Peer-Reviewed Papers Supporting Skepticism of “Man-Made” Global Warming

    http://www.populartechnology.net/2009/10/peer-reviewed-papers-supporting.html

  4. Ripper says:

    Tin foil hat time

    Some one has got their hands on notes from the G20 meeting.

    http://www.bilderbergbook.com/

    Timmy Geitner
    President optimistic have basic elements in place next year.
    Nobody has mandate for specific numbers
    Basic US? architecture for financing only thing needed? to do

    Has the original summary there as well

  5. Ric Werme says:

    Discussion question:

    The percentage of the general public skeptical of climate chane/global warming is rising, I suspect because promised ills haven’t happened as promised and it’s too cold in a lot of areas.

    The media is showing signs of catching on, though some areas and some radio programs still talk about agw with the same certainty as the Sun will rise tomorrow.What timeline do you expect to pass before the mainstream media starts talking about the demise failure of global warming?

    I expected 2009 would be the year some media wakes up to it, though I expected more would have by now. The general public seems to losing faith faster then the media, I assume that comes from not enjoying the promised “barebeque summers” in the UK of late.

  6. NZ Willy says:

    AMSR-E Sea Ice Extent is sure bottled up at the moment. It’s flatlined a few times, now for 3 days. Ice is growing W of Greenland but diminishing N of Siberia. I don’t suppose there is any quiet recalibration going on? It’s just that we haven’t seen such a jagged growth line in previous years. They wouldn’t be priming for Copenhagen, would they be? Naaahh….

  7. mr.artday says:

    There seems to be a divergence of aims in the U.N., given that the I.P.C.C. is working to reduce the world’s population by some 95% in order to save the planet.

  8. geo says:

    I hope you’re on a beach somewhere, Anthony –having cabana girls rub suntan lotion on you between rounds of Mai Tais delivered to your beach chair!

    REPLY:
    Sadly no, climate work beckons.- A

  9. Gene Nemetz says:

    Cap N Trade may be on death row awaiting appeal :

    On the practical side, Obama has spent more money on new programs in nine months than Bill Clinton did in eight years, pushing the annual deficit to $1.4 trillion. This leaves little room for big spending initiatives….the White House has not dropped plans for an aggressive global warming bill early next year that will be loaded with new spending on green technology and jobs – that would be paid for with tax increases. Democratic lobbyist Steve Elmendorf says the White House focus on deficit reduction could easily kill the cap-and-trade effort. “I think this means cap-and-trade has to go to the backburner,” he said.

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1109/29471.html

  10. Mike McMillan says:

    Eddie Murphy (20:51:18) :
    …The leaked World Food Summit draft declaration falls short of a UN goal of eradicating hunger by 2025.

    Rising CO2 has led to great increases in crop productivity, more than sufficient to feed everyone.

    I think almost all the world’s starvation problems are political in nature, and sending money to poor farmers won’t help. The thugs in power in North Korea and Somalia and Zimbabwe are the real reasons in those countries.

    The AGW dunces in power in western countries are responsible for biofuel policies that have take zillions of tons of corn off the food market and raised prices beyond the ability of the third world peoples to pay.

    The Luddites in those same western countries have lobbied effectively to stall the spread of genetically improved crop varieties like golden rice, which could help prevent blindness in vast numbers of children.

    UN FAO programs won’t do a thing to eliminate hunger, any more that paying a carbon tax will eliminate global warming. The solutions lie elsewhere.

  11. Roger Carr says:

    I believe that with the dark and malign forces of authority, as spelled out in the link below, abroad, we, the readers of WUWT, must remain alert and willing to spring to the defence of Anthony should he become their target — and a likely target he is.

    A Curious Subpoena

    Big Brother: The Justice Department wants an online news site to hand over its visitor list. Why? No one’s quite sure yet. But if this is just a fishing expedition by the government, it’s a troubling precedent.

    The unusual request for information, delivered via a grand jury subpoena to Philadelphia-based Indymedia.us, also demanded that the Web site “not … disclose the existence of this request,” unless the Justice Department approves it. …

  12. K says:

    So what’s scarier? The most hysterical AGW projections, or the fact that mainstream science has been corrupted by postmodern politics?

  13. FatBigot says:

    I have a question. It might have been answered already on this site, in which case I apologise for my lack of assiduity.

    From the start of the industrial revolution (roughly 1750) until about 1950 no one seemed particularly bothered about factories pumping soot and other muck into the air from their chimneys. It was an unpleasant side-effect of providing jobs for millions and an increased standard of living for millions more, but it was seen to be a small price to pay for the huge benefits received.

    Today we hear of plans to pump muck into the air to reduce temperatures.

    If it is right that pumping muck into the atmosphere now will reduce temperatures, it follows (in my simple mind) that the earlier pumping of muck must have had the same effect. I would guess that the effect is primarily local rather than global. I would also guess that the temperature measurements taken in the western world during the age of muck might well be lower than they otherwise would be because of the effect of the muck. Indeed, if the “muck = cooler” theory is correct, it is inevitable that those temperature measurements are lower than they would have been sans muck.

    Much of the recent temperature history appears to be based on measurements from land-based instruments in the industrialised world. On the face of it, late 20th century warming must be due in part to the removal of cooling muck.

    My question is: has anyone assessed the effect of earlier 20th century mucky air on temperature measurements taken in the mucky-air countries?

  14. Gene Nemetz says:

    NZ Willy (21:19:44) :

    diminishing N of Siberia

    I haven’t looked in to this. Is it from compaction?

  15. tokyoboy says:

    Anthony you should have renewed the Widget; the sunspot is again ZERO.

    Some clairvoyant: enter your forecast on the sunspot number ant its consequences please.

  16. K (21:44:26) : “So what’s scarier? The most hysterical AGW projections, or the fact that mainstream science has been corrupted by postmodern politics?”

    The fact that the MSM have maintained silence regarding the truth of these issues.

  17. rbateman says:

    Ric Werme (21:17:48) :

    The demise of MSM support for AGW will come on heels of a cold disaster.
    Otherwise it’s a slow decay as Media and populace dig into the plans of AGW and discover extremely distasteful things about it.
    Smack in the middle of the Great Recession no less.

  18. crosspatch says:

    “Is it from compaction?”

    If I were to venture a guess, it is due to winds. Seems like persistent low pressure in the general location of Iceland pulling warm air up from the South.

    It would be compacting the ice North of Iceland.

  19. NZ Willy (21:19:44) : “AMSR-E Sea Ice Extent is sure bottled up at the moment. It’s flatlined a few times, now for 3 days. Ice is growing W of Greenland but diminishing N of Siberia. I don’t suppose there is any quiet recalibration going on? It’s just that we haven’t seen such a jagged growth line in previous years. They wouldn’t be priming for Copenhagen, would they be? Naaahh….”

    My theory is that cold NH temperatures are the result of heat transfer to the Arctic circle, thus delaying freeze-up. Things should resume as the Arctic night descends, possibly at record rates.

    The ice may also be thickening, rather than increasing in extent, but this is unlikely and difficult to prove.

  20. April E. Coggins says:

    There will be no more traveling over the river and through the woods to visit grandmother. If CO2 legislation passes, we will not even be allowed to have a turkey. Too many resources wasted.

  21. Richard deSousa says:

    James Hansen has been very quiet lately… is he sensing a turn in the climate? Certainly the climate temperatures have flattened has started to cool during the past decade which is not according to his computer predictions.

  22. David Alan says:

    Being open-thread night, I thought this would be a good place to the mention that WUWT is approaching its third anniversary.

    Looking through the archives, I found this:
    Welcome To: Watts Up With That?
    http://wattsupwiththat/2006/11/17/welcome-to-watts-up-with-that/

    Had a total of 3 comments, and here is a nugget from the second comment, dated Nov. 17, 2006:
    Jack Lee (21:02:31) :

    “I’m very pleased to see you writing this column Anthony! It’s sure to be a big hit.”

    Jack, if you’re still out there, I’d have to say you hit that one big !

    With WUWT closely approaching twenty-four million hits, I would say a very big hit indeed.

    Anthony, I hope you get a chance to enjoy a little time off this Tuesday. You deserve it!

  23. BernieL says:

    I am wondering whether any of you El Nino nuts are prepared to speculate on the chances that 2010 (super?) El Nino will push a new temp record.

    I ask because in the GISS 2008 Climate report Jim Hansen held to a prediction of the previous year that there would be another Global temp record in the next 2 years (end 2010):

    ”Given our expectation of the next El Nino beginning in 2009 or 2010, it still seems likely that a new global temperature record will be set within the next 1-2 years, despite the moderate negative effect of the reduced solar irradiance.” [Hansen]

  24. Luke Warmer says:

    The (London/UK) Times Saturday 14th Nov front page is all about the results of a survey on climate change.

    “Global warming is not our fault, say most voters in Times poll”

    Story:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6916648.ece

    Comment
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article6916347.ece

    Environment section response:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6916510.ece

    and pdf of (very limited and slightly confusingly presented survey results)
    http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/pdfs/tthstreetpoll2.pdf

    The majority of comments on the storys were from skeptics at the time of writign although I have to say some are fairly poorly informed.

    The environment section response has a photo of smoke stacks with the caption “The Government’s message on climate change does not appear to be getting through”.

    (How do I flag a moderator?)

  25. TonyB says:

    Hi Moderators

    My you’re looking good today ;)

    I have a guest post over at Air Vent concerning my project ‘Little Ice age thermometers’ This entails gathering together as many historic instrumental records from around the world as possible and predate the 1850/1880 Hadley and Giss sets

    Why scrutinise tree rings when you can examine thermometers records back to 1660 to look for climatic variability?

    This first guest post looks at the history of measuring temperatures and pays particular attention to developments around 1850/1880 which includes the creation of the Stevsenson screen which is often viewed as the watershed betwen historic and modern temperature recording.

    It includes Ancient Greeks, Romans fighting Vikings, James Hansen and the IPCC so it covers a broad spectrum. The article incorporates some of EM Smiths excellent work from Chiefio.

    Future articles will look at the reliability of the historic records and compare them to the reliability of modern records in order to determine if the claims of catastrophic warming is correct.

    http://noconsensus.wordpress.com/2009/11/13/little-ice-age-thermometers-history-and-reliability/

    Tonyb

  26. Philip_B says:

    I think almost all the world’s starvation problems are political in nature, and sending money to poor farmers won’t help.

    The FAO is advocating sending more food to poor countries, not money. This in fact makes the problem worse by reducing the incentive for farmers in these countries to grow more food or even the same amount of food in the future.

    What is needed is money in the hands of the hungry and there are various ways to do this. Not least funding basic environmental improvements.

    But that would make the UN’s FAO irrelevant, and heaven forbid get people working and make them self reliant, as well as injecting much needed cash into these economies.

  27. SandyInDerby says:

    K (21:44:26) :

    So what’s scarier? The most hysterical AGW projections, or the fact that mainstream science has been corrupted by postmodern politics?

    The latter, there is a long history of “we’re all doomed and it’s going to happen next Tuesday” but normally it’s the vulnerable who fall for these this time it’s the very people who should be asking the difficult questions. Questions like how? Why? and particularly can you prove it?

  28. Mick says:

    Doesn’t this just sum up the present situation on climate change?

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6916648.ece

  29. SandyInDerby says:

    FatBigot (21:45:08) :

    the topic was vaguely touched the other day on this thread, with regard to British fogs and their disappearance. I associate fog with cold, adding a little to your theory.

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/13/el-nino-gaining-strength/

  30. anna v says:

    Hey, denialists, a la Lindzen, have you voted?

    http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/proveit.aspx

    The no seem to be stalled ( like the ice). Has it reached saturation of available votes? it used to be 3 no to 1 yes. Of course schools visiting the museum will be voting yes, because the thing is guiding them to “yes”, but where have the denialists gone?

  31. tallbloke says:

    Eddie Murphy (20:51:18) :

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/6554952/UN-food-summit-fails-before-it-begins.html
    The leaked World Food Summit draft declaration falls short of a UN goal of eradicating hunger by 2025. Instead, leaders are expected to to sign a watered down declaration in Rome next week that calls for vague increases in aid

    mr.artday (21:20:13) :

    There seems to be a divergence of aims in the U.N., given that the I.P.C.C. is working to reduce the world’s population by some 95% in order to save the planet.

    About 20 years ago, a friend of mine was working part time on an effort called “The Hunger Project.” It was an NGO effort to highlight the truth about agricultural production and the fact that large numbers of people inthe world starve amid plenty. They produced a glossy brochure with some convincing facts and figures.

    Now, 20 years later, the U.N. apparently aims to achieve what that brochure said could be achieved within 10 years, by 2025. They and the worlds major league governments have frittered away the warm years and we stand on the edge of an abyss of cold and deprivation.

    The realpolitik of the situation is that the owners of the surreal wealth in the world see their position jeapardized by developing nations who won’t play their surreal game according to their surreal rules. They are stalling for time. We, the citizens of the developed nations meekly allow the banks and corporate governments of our countries to rob us blind to prop up their failed system of wealth partition. Why? Because we are successfully frightened by them through the media into believing there is no other way to organize our lives. The agencies we finance to solve the problems faced by the worlds deprived and oppressed fail us through their inability to surmount the obstacles created by political and financial interest.

    The famous TT motorcycle racer Joey Dunlop saw through this. Faced with bureacracy and inertia in his attempt to help the starving and desperate people in Bosnia during the Serbian Genocide, he borrowed a huge truck, drove it round Ireland collecting food and clothes, and drove it across all borders to where it was needed. He didn’t take no for an answer, and nobody dared to shoot him. This event followed his work for charity where he would load up his race transporter before each season, and drive it to Romania loaded with medecine and other aid.

    Joey died in a street race in Tallinn. We need to take up the torch in his memory and follow his anarchic example.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joey_Dunlop

  32. Thomas J. Arnold. says:

    Is the tide turning in the Hotheadbed of AGW? – (Britain)
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6916648.ece
    And I quote;
    “Vicky Pope, head of climate change advice at the Met Office, said that growing awareness of the scale of the problem appeared to be resulting in people taking refuge in denial.”

    They (the politicians/met officers(( towing the line, who pays the piper?))) are surely the one’s in denial, the more they push, the more ‘us proles’ push back, its a law of physics.
    Because the growing scientific evidence points to natural warming in the last part of the C20th, the Met Office don’t get it!!
    Refuge in Denial! Its enough to make you swear(snip).
    Perhaps the people ‘get it’ and then the politicians will have to ‘get real’ , I await the time when the Met Office issues a ‘we were wrong’ statement, though I don’t hold my breath about it, though I do believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden and that pigs maybe some day will learn unpowered flight.

  33. DaveE says:

    growing awareness of the scale of the problem lying appeared to be resulting in people taking refuge in denial.

    Fixed!

    DaveE.

  34. geoffchambers says:

    Ric Werme asks “What timeline do you expect to pass before the mainstream media starts talking about the demise failure of global warming?”
    The politicians will be the last to know, closely preceded by the environmental editors of the serious papers. I won’t believe the tide has turned until a stand-up comic dares make a joke about the Maldive Islanders.

  35. Stefan says:

    K (21:44:26) :
    So what’s scarier? The most hysterical AGW projections, or the fact that mainstream science has been corrupted by postmodern politics?

    Postmodern politics is scarier. It has been said that it could lead to a halving of the world’s population. In the world, postmodern ethics gives the world’s thugs an equal seat at the table. Like, why shouldn’t everyone have nuclear bombs? We have them, right? America used them, right?

    But I’m not too worried about the long term picture in the developed world. Postmodernism started in the 60s by a small number of brains immeasurably superior to its present day adherents, so there is only so far the current generation of oldies in positions of authority can go with it (ironic!).

    These days, a new generation of brains are already thinking beyond it–we’re entering a post-postmodern phase. Perhaps it is not obvious because they don’t have the big institutions speaking for them, however, they are out there and they’ll figure out how to get stuff done without funding from the big institutions. Instead they’ll find each other individually and quietly start forming some new science and culture.

    Post post modernism will probably gain enough power to be fairly mainstream in about 20 years, a lot sooner than any IPCC projection of +4C.

    It is bizarre that groups of people in the West believe we can “end hunger now!” and “stop climate change!” and get “peace in the Middle East!” and so on. Initially, 30 years ago, these were noble intentions, but pretty soon it became obvious that these problems have staggering complexity. The trouble with postmodernist thought is that it never managed to recognise the complexity.

    I’m tempted to suggest that AGWs be appropriately labelled
    “complexity deniers!”

  36. Juraj V. says:

    I think it wont change until some skeptical politician administration will emerge as the result of elections, preferably in US.

  37. NZ Willy says:

    Gene Nemetz (21:55:08)

    I doubt the ice N or siberia is compacting because the Ice E of Svalbard has basically thinned to almost nothing and it’s the same water currents. But I have no practical experience or knowledge about this.

  38. NZ Willy (21:19:44) : AMSR-E Sea Ice Extent is sure bottled up at the moment. It’s flatlined a few times, now for 3 days.
    Close eyeballing, it’s evident that such flatlining has NOT happened before at this time of year, at least not during the lifetime of this form of recording. Neither would I expect it in the season of most rapid cooling and refreezing. And don’t we know anecdotally that the Arctic has NOT been warm this last summer? The fact that the red line is now into “worse than expected” “worst ever” range does make me concerned. Now if you wanted to falsify data, you’d do it in little bits, running up to Copenhagen… but I cannot assert that this has happened here without some other clear evidence.

  39. anna v: I too noticed that the Science Museum votes did not seem to be increasing and wondered if there was a dog hidden inside the machine to eat the homework… can someone keep track please, it would be interesting…

  40. DaveF says:

    Vicky Pope of the Met Office also said “people see the problem being used to charge them more taxes.” Got it in one, Vicky!

  41. Stacey says:

    It is astounding that there are people who want to pump material into the atmosphere.

    Whilst the cause of the onset of ice ages is based on a number of theories one is that cooler summers cause prolonged winters and therfore there is more snow cover which reflects sunlight resulting in a gradual process which results eventually in ice ages.

    The next time someone talks about peer reviewed papers you can of course mention Einstein but of course look up James Croll who wrote papers on the causes of climate change whilst at university, working as a janitor.

    My thanks to Bill Bryson and his book A short history of everything which is a very good read and shows how important Geologists have been in unravelling our history and advances in how the planet works.

  42. rbateman says:

    Skeptical & Denialists?
    Always the AGW stuff turns everything it gets it’s hands on upside down.
    The Warmists say we are overheating and will cook and drown.
    The Skeptics say prove it, show us your calcualtions.
    The Warmists, instead of answering the questions shoot the messenger, calling them heretical deniers.
    If a Skeptic were truly in denial, they would have to deny what is in front of us daily in a cooling world in order to accept the Warmists claims at face value.

  43. rbateman says:

    Lucy Skywalker (02:42:09) :

    How many satellite sensors have we lost this year?
    How many planes have we lost this year, helicopters included?

  44. DaveF says:

    TonyB 00:19:16:

    “….Romans fighting Vikings, James Hansen and the IPCC…”

    My money’s on the Romans beating all three at once!

    Seriously, though, I followed your link and read Mr Id’s fascinating article. I would have thought WUWT readers would find it interesting also, if those wonderful – and good-looking – moderators could persuade Mr Watts to re-publish it here.

  45. Chris Schoneveld says:

    Andrew (21:11:07) : Thanks for that link. I always wanted that.

  46. Luke Warmer says:

    Lucy (02:44:41) – there’s no need for excessive paranoia. The thread below has been very active and there’re a couple of widgets linked to count the voting.

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/10/23/and-then-what-happens/#more-12043

    You can also see for example:
    http://wermenh.com/proveitraw.html

    There was a hockey stick jump in warmist votes, possibly after Monbiot’s we’re losing piece and the graph does show some other issues.

    Two points to bear in mind – 1) it’s more than likely that the alarmists will win the poll 2) science is not and never has been a democracy – a prove it poll on evolution v creationism would likely weigh in in creationism’s favour, as I’m sure they’ll be quick to point out.

    The poll is purely political and despite early shenanigans from both sides (although the skeptics one was pre-announced) and the scope for egg on face for the museum, it will achieve very little whatever the outcome. The same is true for the Times poll which will only cause efforts to ‘re-educate’ the masses to be increased.

  47. Ron de Haan says:

    Eddie Murphy (20:51:18) :

    The UN is a totally corrupt organization and it’s spreading corruption via the NGO’s working under the UN Umbrella into the countries where they operate.
    The fat cats in charge fill their pockets and the people in the field are left frustrated.
    In many cases the NGO’s work with corrupt contractors who pay back huge parts of the budgets to private persons in the chain.
    What’s left are some “symbolic” show case projects but the big problems are not solved despite the fact that big budgets have been made available.

    In Afghanistan we now have a situation where NGO’s and private contractors who are hired to provide security and logistics are buying off the Taliban.
    So our funding is supporting the enemy we are fighting.
    Only a very small part of the resources and the money arrives with the people who need it.
    Many of the UN NGO’s operate outside their original field of operation and have turned into political organizations.
    If you look at the budgets that have been made available to Oxfam, hunger in the world should have been eradicated years ago.
    The UN is using her budgets to generate misery instead of solving it.

    I think we need an entirely different approach to solve the problems but that requires big changes in our own Government and it’s policies.

    If we want to solve something, private initiative is the best way to go.

    Every dollar transferred into the hands of the UN is a wasted dollar and as things look now, it’s used against us.

  48. Stephen Skinner says:

    Lucy Skywalker (02:42:09) :

    NZ Willy (21:19:44) : AMSR-E Sea Ice Extent is sure bottled up at the moment. It’s flatlined a few times, now for 3 days.

    Over at http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/ there has been no update since 09/11. It does look odd, unless of course the Russians have found ways of keeping the waters open. Interestingly both the Russian and Alaskan oil fields are in areas of late freezing water. Considering the efforts and expertise that go into ice roads, it would not be unreasonable for the oil organisations to find ways of delaying the freeze up. However, creating ice roads is all about augmenting the freeze up, which has to be easier than holding back the freeze up. However how about the following:
    http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/safety/ice/index.html
    “Schools of fish or flocks of waterfowl can also adversely affect the relative safety of ice. The movement of fish can bring warm water up from the bottom of the lake. In the past, this has opened holes in the ice causing snowmobiles and cars to break through.”

  49. Luke Warmer (03:26:54) :
    :)

  50. anna v says:

    the museum poll

    http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/proveit.aspx

    at the time of this post
    * 4516 counted in so far
    * 7265 counted out so

    at (22:22:38) :

    # 4504 counted in so far
    # 7253 counted out

    Note the reversal of previous rates:

    14 new in
    12 new out

    when it was a factor of three in the rate of out to in, in favor of out a while ago.

    I put my money on schoolchildren walked through the exhibit and guided how to vote

  51. Chris Schoneveld says:

    Philip_B (00:24:39) :
    “What is needed is money in the hands of the hungry and there are various ways to do this. Not least funding basic environmental improvements.”

    Indeed, but then as loans to the women in the form of microcredits. http://www.microcreditsummit.org/

  52. … but you will note that in both posts I strenuously refrained from stating observations as conclusions and asked for that most dreadful of things, evidence
    :)

  53. Stefan says:

    Rethink for calorie eating levels
    The calorie counts used as the foundation for diet plans and healthy-eating guidance for the past 18 years may be wrong, a report suggests.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8360136.stm
    Tam Fry, of the National Obesity Forum, said it was a “dangerous assumption” to say that adults could safely consume an extra 400 calories a day.
    “This is not a green light to eat yourself silly,” he said.

    I do wish activists would stop trying to think for everyone else, which leads to every piece of information being filtered in case it “sends the wrong message”.

    Dear activists, you are not that smart, and everyone else is not that stupid.

  54. Eric Barnes says:

    Ric Werme (21:17:48) :
    Discussion question:

    The percentage of the general public skeptical of climate chane/global warming is rising, I suspect because promised ills haven’t happened as promised and it’s too cold in a lot of areas.

    Agreed Ric. It warms my heart to see the skepticism come pouring in on AGW MSM articles. Lately, skepticism seemed especially severe in the USA Today and WSJ. I remember back this Spring that I was checking out articles on the Seattle PI, and there was pretty heavy AGW support there. I think I’ll check again and add to the chorus of skeptics if necessary. :)

  55. Stephen Skinner says:

    EU sets 20% target for carbon cuts
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jan/23/climatechange.eu1

    EU ‘will ignore advice to ban bluefin fishing’
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6916573.ece

    Fantastic, so we will get under control a trace element that has changed it’s relationship to the atmosphere by 1% of 1%. Meanwhile we will continue to overfish an important food to the point where it disappears. Any lessons learnt from the Grand Banks?
    The lunatics are running the asylum.

  56. Beth Cooper says:

    Three days to WUWT third anniversary. How shall we celebrate this outpost for enlightenment in a dark world? Here in Melbourne I intend to put on a fire works display.

  57. M White says:

    “What timeline do you expect to pass before the mainstream media starts talking about the demise failure of global warming?”

    Think viewing figures, paper circulation and monetary income.

    When would we expect politicians to talk about the failure of global warming?

    Think VOTES

  58. Curiousgeorge says:

    Sort of peripheral to the CO2, but often comes up in debates with environmentalists is the whole “Factory Farm” issue. Here’s a reality check dealing with dairy farms:

    http://www.dtnprogressivefarmer.com/dtnag/common/link.do?symbolicName=/free/news/template1&paneContentId=5&paneParentId=70104&product=/ag/news/topstories&vendorReference=1b861f28-ff0b-4ef5-b365-607270b90575

    Quote:

    Dear Readers:

    When an environmental regulator speaks, you expect to hear statements like, “Manure is a long-standing, pervasive, persisting and vexing water-quality problem in Wisconsin.” You don’t expect to hear, “The largest livestock operators aren’t the primary sources of the problem.”

    A group of folks attending the Society for Environmental Journalists’ annual meeting in October heard both from Gordon Stevenson.

    Stevenson is Mr. Runoff at Wisconsin’s Department of Natural Resources. “America’s Dairyland,” as the state calls itself, has been plagued in recent years by manure-runoff problems — contaminated wells, dead fish and dead zones in rivers.

    “We haven’t made the kind of progress we’d like to” in solving the runoff problem, Stevenson told a busload of the environmental journalists as they journeyed to Waterloo, Wis., for a tour of a 1,000-cow dairy.

    But the cheese-head state’s 190 CAFOs — an acronym Stevenson says is short for Concentrated (not Confined) Animal Feeding Operation — aren’t the problem. “This runs contrary,” he admitted, “to the belief system of many people,” whose attitude is: “Aren’t CAFOs awful?”

    Dairies and other livestock operations with more than 700 cows must receive permits, submit manure-management plans, hold discharge to zero and undergo state inspections. Wisconsin’s nearly 30,000 smaller livestock and poultry operations don’t have to do any of this.

    If regulators don’t like one of these smaller operations’ manure-management practices, they can demand fixes. But the state must pony up 70 percent of the cost of the improvements. Stevenson said this would require an additional $900 million and 250 regulators. The state legislature isn’t likely to provide either.

    “The political will to regulate ma and pa doesn’t exist,” he said.

    These weren’t the only kind words about CAFOs the journalists heard this day:

    — Cows at large dairies are more productive. Bruce Johnson, a University of Wisconsin ag economist, said annual milk production averages 30,000 pounds per cow nationwide, compared to a 20,000-pound average for all dairies.

    — Large-dairy cows tend to receive better treatment — a better diet, soft bedding, good medical care and warm barns in winter. “If I’m a dairy cow, I hope to go to a CAFO,” Stevenson said. “I’m going to get proper housing and nutrition, because I’ll produce more.”

    — Only a large operation can afford to spend $4 million on an anaerobic digester like the one on Crave Brothers Farm the journalists visited. Carl Crave, the son of one of the four Crave brothers and the operator of the digester, said only 25 farms in Wisconsin have the machines, and only 250 could support them. Digesters keep methane, a greenhouse gas, out of the atmosphere and produce electricity and a useful solid byproduct from manure without removing nutrients, leaving a valuable liquid fertilizer.

    Amid all the happy talk, the journalists also heard some less favorable reviews. James Saul, an environmental lawyer, complained that CAFOs in Wisconsin are only inspected once every five years — and that some very large dairies that fall just below the 700-animal threshold aren’t inspected or regulated at all.

    Saul said too little is known about how runoff reaches the water. He suspects slow leaching, which could mean CAFOs are causing problems that will only show up years from now. He urges CAFOs to consider filtering and treating their wastewater, which is what municipal sewage systems do. And he’d like a moratorium on new CAFOs until the environmental consequences of existing ones can be studied in more detail.

    “Nutrient management planning can do a lot to remedy” slow leaching, Saul said, but “I’m not convinced yet that nutrient management is the solution.”

    And, as some of the journalists noted afterwards, the day dealt mainly with dairies in Wisconsin. Cattle feedlots and large-scale hog and poultry operations may raise different issues.

    Still, going into the tour, many of the journalists had equated all CAFOs everywhere with what Stevenson called “the double-F word” — factory farms. To them, FF meant animal-abusing, corporate-owned, pollution-spewing wastelands.

    “There’s a general perception,” Stevenson said, “that CAFOs are owned by villains, people sitting on Wall Street dressed in three-thousand-dollar suits. The truth is, CAFOs are more often than not family farms.”

    Whether the day changed any minds is open to question; when new information, however compelling, crashes into a wall of strongly held views, the wall doesn’t always give way. No matter. It’s enough if the environmental journalists took away a realization that the factory farms issue may be more complicated than they had realized. The organizers of the conference deserve credit for devising a program that offered journalists a more balanced perspective.

    Urban C. Lehner

    Editor-in-Chief

    DTN/The Progressive Farmer — A Telvent Brand

    Endquote

  59. M White says:

    “High winds forecast as storms hit”

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8360106.stm

    You would think it had never happened before.

  60. Curiousgeorge says:

    Here’s a good read on “Black Liquor” and a cool subsidy loophole courtesy of the biofuels lobby:

    http://www.dtnprogressivefarmer.com/dtnag/common/link.do?symbolicName=/free/news/template1&paneContentId=5&paneParentId=70104&product=/ag/news/topstories&vendorReference=b88006fa-b53c-4980-88e5-e3a4e3a4d33e

    OMAHA (DTN) — Thanks to a 2008 Internal Revenue Service ruling, American taxpayers will shell out at least $6 billion this year to subsidize an “alternative fuel” that has actually been the main fuel used in paper mills for decades.

    In the first six months of 2009, payments to the paper industry for black liquor could reach $2.5 billion, according to the Congressional Joint Committee. (Photo courtesy of Wikimedia Commons)

    “Black liquor” sounds like a trendy new drink, but in fact it’s a byproduct of the paper-making process, which paper mills use to run their boilers. Responding to inquiries from paper companies late last year, the IRS says black liquor could qualify for a 50-cent-a-gallon alternative-fuel subsidy Congress created in the 2005 highway bill and extended in the 2007 energy bill.

    The provision’s intent seemed to be spurring the development of new fuels. It was only expected to cost $265 million over five years.

    For the struggling pulp and paper industry, the subsidy is very good news, turning some money-losing operations into profit makers. It’s bad news for supporters of ethanol, biodiesel and other renewable fuels.

    Tom Buis, the chief executive officer of renewable-fuels group Growth Energy, says unhappiness over the loophole could discourage Congress from expanding renewable-fuels subsidies or creating new ones. By his understanding of Congress’s intent, paper mills “would never qualify” to the degree they have. “The cost,” he noted, “is pretty significant.”

    Indeed, owing to the black-liquor controversy, Congress may not renew the 50-cent credit, which is scheduled to expire at the end of this year. But even assuming the credit lapses, the controversy continues. A $24 billion cellulosic credit dubbed “son of black liquor” is in line to replace it.

    EXAMPLE OF PAPER INDUSTRY’S PROWESS

    The black-liquor maneuvers are just the latest examples of the paper industry’s growing prowess at cashing in on federal subsidies designed to promote the development of new kinds of fuels. As DTN indicated in the first story in this two-part series, old-line forestry companies are lining up to capitalize on a biomass subsidy written into the 2008 farm bill.

    Boiling wood chips in caustic soda creates pulp, which is made into paper. As byproducts, the paper mill gets back caustic soda, which it recycles, and black liquor, which provides about two-thirds of the energy used in the pulp industry. The industry has used black liquor as a fuel since the 1930s, says Scott Milburn, a spokesman for the American Forest and Paper Association.

    “So we’re darn near self-sufficient when it comes to energy,” Milburn says. “And this is a clean energy. It’s renewable. It’s carbon neutral, so it’s a lot better than if we were lighting up all of our facilities with fossil fuels.”

    Milburn says black liquor creates more energy than all of the solar, wind and geothermal power produced in the country combined. “So that gives you a kind of vastness of the scale here.”

    Paper mills lost $2.1 billion in the fourth quarter of 2008, according to industry analysts. Earnings in 2008 fell 40 percent from 2007 levels. For some mills, the tax credit alone floated their operations this year.

    To qualify for the 50-cent-a-gallon alternative-fuels credit, all companies have to do is add a splash of diesel fuel to the black liquor. The industry didn’t specifically lobby for the black-liquor provision in the 2005 highway bill, or the extension in the 2007 energy bill. Only late last year did industry officials ask the IRS if black liquor would meet the “alternative fuel” definition, Milburn says.

    Earlier this year, the Congressional Joint Committee on Taxation stated that in the first six months of 2009, the payments for black liquor could reach $2.5 billion.

    Private analysts from Deutsche Bank and Forestweb have put the forest and paper industry’s tax-credit windfall at $6 billion to $8.5 billion by the end of the year.

    BOON OR BOONDOGGLE?

    Some lawmakers have expressed outrage. Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus, D-Mont., and Committee Ranking Member Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, released a joint statement in June saying they were drafting legislation to eliminate the black liquor loophole. Stated Baucus: “This credit was not meant to provide a boon to companies for a process they’ve already been doing for several decades.”

    Yet the promise of a fix has gone nowhere despite the continued outflow of billions. Lawmakers from forestry and paper-mill states have rushed to the industry’s defense. At a Senate Finance Committee hearing in April, Sen. Olympia Snowe, R-Maine, said: “The black liquor tax credit is crucial to the survival of the paper industry, and to maintain and create jobs.”

    Backing Snowe is the United Steelworkers Union, whose members include forestry and paper employees. It has called efforts by Baucus and Grassley a “mockery of the intent of Congress around increasing the use of biofuels,” and a “slap in the face to the paper industry.” The black liquor tax credit keeps people employed, the union stated.

    In June, the paper company Domtar reopened a pulp plant in Maine. Snowe stated in a news release that the tax credit was cited by the company as one of the primary reasons the plant reopened. Domtar has collected $299 million from the credit in the first nine months of the year.

    In a quarterly report last week, International Paper reported it has collected $1.5 billion from the black liquor credit in the past 12 months. Other public companies report hundreds of millions collected from the tax each quarter as well.

    Among those outraged by the black liquor provision are companies that make recycled paper. They don’t use black liquor and are thus at a competitive disadvantage to companies receiving the subsidy. The Institute for Scrap Recycling Industries has written Baucus stating the credit gives mills using virgin material an advantage that should be ended.

    While there were few if any users of the 50-cent credit for making automobile biofuels, Buis says it would have been important for future biofuel efforts. If the credit lapses, which seems likely, it won’t be available.

    BLACK LIQUOR: THE SEQUEL

    But whether or not it lapses, “son of black liquor” could be the sequel. With a positive ruling from the IRS in June, the forest and paper industry is eyeing the $1.01-per-gallon cellulosic biofuel producer credit created in the 2008 farm bill. If the paper mills are allowed to use this credit, the Joint Committee on Taxation projects they’d collect about $21.9 billion between now and 2014, and $24 billion total.

    Milburn doubts son of black liquor will come to fruition. Unlike the alternative-fuels credit, producers must also be approved by the Environmental Protection Agency for the $1.01 cellulosic credit. The EPA has said only fuels for vehicles would meet Clean Air Act requirements. Because the paper industry doesn’t use black liquor as a motor fuel, “We don’t think EPA would certify black liquor,” Milburn says.

    Still, EPA hasn’t issued a legal opinion or memorandum. In its quarterly earnings news release last week, KapStone Paper and Packaging Corp. said it was evaluating whether it would qualify for the $1.01 credit for 2010.

    In an odd twist, Democratic House members last week attached a provision to the health-care reform bill aimed at ensuring black liquor would not receive the cellulosic credit. The members then claimed the $24 billion “saved” as a way of helping to pay for health-care reform. Although some would see this as budgetary sleight-of-hand, on grounds the EPA would have saved the $24 billion anyway, critics of black-liquor incentives called it a victory.

    Buis worries that allowing mills to use the cellulosic credit would harm the biofuel industry’s long-term progress. Growth Energy got involved, Buis says, because “There was an amendment that you couldn’t get a cellulosic tax credit for ethanol if it was mixed in any way with the production of corn ethanol. So that’s why we sprang into action and got that changed, and the leadership did change it.”

  61. TonyB says:

    DaveF

    Thanks for those kind words, but it is my article that has been kindly hosted by Jeff id. Yes I hope that Mr Watts will run it here as well as these historic pieces tell us a lot about the past and help to put the present into context.

    http://noconsensus.wordpress.com/2009/11/13/little-ice-age-thermometers-history-and-reliability/

    Tonyb

  62. Richard111 says:

    Thank you Andrew (21:11:07) :

    Have bookmarked that site. Lots to read up there.

  63. Jon Jewett says:

    Eddie Murphy (20:51:18) :

    If you cared, I mean really cared about world hunger…

    1. Drop farm subsidies especially subsidies for bio fuels.
    2. Drop all barriers to food imports/exports.
    3. Support good governance in third world countries. (A hint: the Left has supported self-styled Socialist governments in the third world for 50 years. It doesn’t work!)
    4. Drop all barriers to genetically modified foods.

    In short: GET OUT OF THE WAY!

    And may God Bless Norman Borlaug http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Borlaug

    A man who saved millions from starvation, won the Nobel Peace Prize before it was worth little more than toilet paper, and the man that proved Paul Ehrlich to be little more than a buffoon! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Population_Bomb

    Julian Simon later demonstrated just what a fool Ehrlich was: “…….Ehrlich’s published claim that “If I were a gambler, I would take even money that England will not exist in the year 2000″”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon-Ehrlich_wager

    The lesson to the AGW crowd? Instead of making prognostications ten or twenty years in the future, make them 100 years. That way, people may have forgotten what a fool you have been. If they DO remember, you will be dead so that you can’t have your nose rubbed in the puppy poo.

    Regards,

    Steamboat Jack

  64. Mark says:

    Lucy Skywalker (02:42:09) :

    Close eyeballing, it’s evident that such flatlining has NOT happened before at this time of year, at least not during the lifetime of this form of recording. Neither would I expect it in the season of most rapid cooling and refreezing. And don’t we know anecdotally that the Arctic has NOT been warm this last summer? The fact that the red line is now into “worse than expected” “worst ever” range does make me concerned. Now if you wanted to falsify data, you’d do it in little bits, running up to Copenhagen… but I cannot assert that this has happened here without some other clear evidence.

    =========================================
    Nice though the conspiracy theory is, there is no doubt the Arctic has been a bit warmer than normal this fall. Just check the DMI graph that Anthony provides at the side of the home page:

    http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/meant80n.uk.php

  65. Spen says:

    ‘ anna v (00:49:41) :

    Hey, denialists, a la Lindzen, have you voted?

    http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/proveit.aspx

    The no seem to be stalled ( like the ice). Has it reached saturation of available votes? it used to be 3 no to 1 yes. Of course schools visiting the museum will be voting yes, because the thing is guiding them to “yes”, but where have the denialists gone?’

    The poll doesn’t accept my email address – that’s one way of fixing the no vote.

  66. Gene Nemetz says:

    TonyB (00:19:16) :

    It includes Ancient Greeks, Romans fighting Vikings

    Did you know there is anecdotal evidence from sketches that seems to show Vikings had skirmishes on the Eastern coast of Canada during the Medieval Warm Period with soldiers from the Ming Dynasty? The dress of what was called Canadian Indians in the sketches looks more like Ming Period style of clothing than Canadian Indian. It is thought that Lief Erikson’s brother was killed in one of these skirmishes.

  67. Ric Werme says:

    anna v (00:49:41) :

    Hey, denialists, a la Lindzen, have you voted?

    http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/proveit.aspx

    The no seem to be stalled ( like the ice). Has it reached saturation of available votes? it used to be 3 no to 1 yes. Of course schools visiting the museum will be voting yes, because the thing is guiding them to “yes”, but where have the denialists gone?

    Oh yeah, this is a good place to (I hate me too posts) echo what Luke W said.

    I’m tracking the Museum poll counts with a 2 hour summary at at http://wermenh.com/proveit.html which has a link to my raw data at http://wermenh.com/proveitraw.html . There are also links to the main story on WUWT and to the Museum poll.

    I started after the Museum mostly recovered from their extremely rocky start, though they made a big adjustment a couple days ago. The increase in “count me in” votes starting Nov 3 may be due to resuming school and/or also from a George Monbiot post.

    My tracking provides an example of the difficulty in maintaining a complete record of collecting anything. The last three gaps were due to:

    11/6: Power failure at home (dead tree blew on to wires a mile from home).

    11/13: After disabling the fetch & update part of a script to check out some web page changes I forgot to reenable it.

    11/14: Outage of the Museum’s server.

    Overall, activity has been declining. Clearly the activists weighed in first, now it’s more casual folks wandering by. Most of the voting happens during European day time, so I think that means recent voting has been by Brits. (BTW, you’re expected to know that the Science Museum is in London. I think that means they were the first.)

    All in all, this is a meaningless poll, but given it is part of the Copenhagen hype for a conference with declining expectations, all that’s left is the amusement value. Good thing that I’m easily amused. :-)

  68. Dear moderators,

    The New York Times has an appalling piece of science journalism about sea turtles and “climate change” today. If anyone has time to post a debunking (I don’t, relatives in town, etc.), that would be a good thing.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/14/science/earth/14turtles.html?_r=1&hp

    Regards

  69. gtrip says:

    What is the longest “comment” you all will read? For me, if it is more than a screen full, I usually just skip it. I find that those who can make their point with the fewest words are the ones with the clearest thoughts.

  70. Robert E. Phelan says:

    Mark (06:14:33) :

    I’m not sure the DMI graph is evidence for anything. I check it everyday and the only thing that has changed on that graph over the last three days is the date. The same graph has been displayed all tht time. Go figger.

  71. DonS says:

    @anna v. I fear that we denialists are more noisy than numerous or industrious.

  72. Gene Nemetz says:

    Lucy Skywalker (02:42:09) :

    …such flatlining has NOT happened before at this time of year, at least not during the lifetime of this form of recording. Neither would I expect it in the season of most rapid cooling and refreezing. And don’t we know anecdotally that the Arctic has NOT been warm this last summer?

    I am thinking these same things. So what is going on?

    Watts Up With That??

    If you look at the DMi graph

    http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/icecover.uk.php

    you can see a similar flattening in 2006 and then it shoots up dramatically at the end of November.

    What happened from October 1 until today to make the lower area?

    Does anyone know?

  73. Gene Nemetz says:

    NANSEN–ROOS isn’t showing the same aggressive drop in Arctic ice

    http://arctic-roos.org/observations/satellite-data/sea-ice/ice-area-and-extent-in-arctic

  74. jlc says:

    anna v (04:51:52)

    Thanks, Anna – I outed myself!

  75. Robert E. Phelan says:

    The thread about the “Prove It!” Poll at the Science Museum in London is still chugging along with nearly 500 comments and an ongoing monitoring and discussion about the chicanery we continue to observe. On November 12, the “count-me-in” votes declined by almost 1500 votes. At 16:00 UTC, four hours later, they were UP by 2000 votes. Also at 16:00 hours the “count-me-in” votes had increased by more than 1500 votes in less than two hours. The whole thing is still a melodrama.

    Anthony’s original thread is here:
    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/10/23/and-then-what-happens/

    Ric Werme’s monitoring page is here:
    http://wermenh.com/proveitraw.html

    Lihard’s monitoring widget is here:
    http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=62965c1675d258c800d27174b47c66570574a07afa1e342b61390143435ec59c

    And the museum poll itself is here:
    http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/proveit.aspx

  76. Gene Nemetz says:

    Stephen Skinner (04:28:13) :

    …Russian…Alaskan…

    Wasn’t -PDO supposed to be causing that area to freeze faster?

  77. anna v says:

    OK, Lucy, here is somebody counting.

    http://home.comcast.net/~ewerme/proveitraw.html

    Watch the discontinuity on noveber 12!!

    Do they think nobody is watching?

  78. jlc says:

    Beth Cooper (05:11:37)

    Beth – I propose lots of Sumerian mead at Wronwright’s place

  79. Mike Nicholson says:

    With reference to a previous posting about the poll in the UK Times newspaper today, ( http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6916648.ece ), the interesting thing is that the authors, Ben Webster, the ” Environment Editor” and Peter Riddell, state in the second paragraph the ” the greenhouse effect is a serious threat requiring urgent action ” ! I posted a comment about five hours ago pointing out their error, and that in fact the greenhouse effect is what stops our planet freezing, but to date, no sign of the comment. I also suggested to them that they should do a little self education on climate matters before writing any further articles. No possibility that this was the reason for my comment being binned ??!

  80. anna v says:

    Mark (06:14:33) :

    Nice though the conspiracy theory is, there is no doubt the Arctic has been a bit warmer than normal this fall. Just check the DMI graph that Anthony provides at the side of the home page:

    http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/meant80n.uk.php

    It cannot be warmth. It is way below freezing there. It could be ocean currents, but my money is on winds compacting the ice and creating empty spaces. Ever since that infamous Catlin expedition where the compaction was obvious in huge piles I put my money on wind. It would be good to have the wind pattern in the arctic, but I cannot find it. We have a nice wind pattern for the Aegean :)
    and Europe, but not arctic. http://www.poseidon.ncmr.gr/

  81. It will be interesting to see the coming photo op when Obama lands and makes a visit to Beijing. Unusual Heavy snow is coming in many parts of China including Beijing. He will meet the Chinese leaders to discuss global warming ”climate change” in preparation of the Copenhagen meeting.
    The cold blast coming down from Siberia is impressive. I’ve looked at the forecast on BBC for the coming week. Below freezing should be common even almost down to the Vietnamese border. This is a condition similar to the blizzard that hit that area 2 years age during the Chinese New Year.

  82. H.R. says:

    @Beth Cooper (05:11:37) :

    “Three days to WUWT third anniversary. How shall we celebrate this outpost for enlightenment in a dark world? Here in Melbourne I intend to put on a fire works display.”

    The appropriate way to celebrate is to fire up a barbeque grill and cook up some steaks. (n.b. Charcoal is best but gas grills are acceptable.)

  83. anna v says:

    continuing, on since no editing, anna v (07:16:00) :

    OK, Lucy, here is somebody counting.

    http://home.comcast.net/~ewerme/proveitraw.html

    Watch the discontinuity on noveber 12!!

    Do they think nobody is watching?

    I think what has happened is somebody has put back the stuffing taken out back then when the stuffing on both sides was discovered. The discontinuity is about the right size.

  84. Perry Debell says:

    Two headlines.

    HEADLINE STORY NORTH SEA STORM SURGE
    Piers Corbyn North Sea Storm Surge Countdown for the UK and other world events for the 17th-19th November
    Thursday, November 12th 2009, 2:07 PM EST

    http://climaterealists.com/index.php?id=4352&linkbox=true&position=3

    Winds of up to 100mph (160km/h) have hit parts of the UK as a storm moves across Wales and southern England.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8360106.stm

  85. Paul Vaughan says:

    Physicist & expert on weather modification interviewed:
    http://watch.ctv.ca/news/latest/seeding-clouds/#clip234637

  86. anna v says:

    From the thread
    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/10/23/and-then-what-happens/

    First stuffing:

    Stephen Brown (11:57:42) :

    At 20:00hrs on 23/10/2009 the score stands at 349 IN, 485 OUT.
    ————————-
    Les Johnson (12:08:43) :

    A big jump – 349 In, 1388 out.

    The 1000 that were declared on went in

    ————————————-

    dodgy geezer (18:01:39) :

    I estimate that, on or about 00:00 GMT the ‘Count Me IN’ figure started a regular increase of about 7-8 per minute. The ‘Count Me OUT’ figure at this time was increasing irregularly, by an average of about 1 per minute.

    I am going to bed now – the figures at 01:00 GMT are 1515 vs 4248. I

    ——————–

    On 10/26

    Robert E. Phelan (23:16:04) :

    3830 counted in so far 4545 counted out so far
    ————————-

    Maybe the shift changed and somebody said: “why did we throw out all these votes?”

  87. INGSOC says:

    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/11/obama-emperor-akihito-japan.html

    Are there no limits to your presidents servility? He’s even giving appeasement a bad name!

    Well, it is an open thread…

  88. INGSOC says:

    I have decided that my last comment was a little over the top. My sincere apologies for any disrespect. (Insert bow here)

  89. wakeupmaggy says:

    anna v (00:49:41) :

    Hey, denialists, a la Lindzen, have you voted

    http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/proveit.aspx

    I was afraid to vote because if you Count Me Out you are redirected to:
    “To be counted out, just tell us who you are*. We’ll pass the results on to the government to let them know where you stand.”

    Creepy threat.

  90. INGSOC says:

    Mark (06:14:33) :

    “The fact that the red line is now into “worse than expected” “worst ever” range does make me concerned.”

    Interesting point. I would suggest however that the “flatlining”, or relative smoothing of the wave pattern indicates a return to normal yearly fluctuations in extent/area. Remember that we are recovering from a rather deep low minimum in ’07. I would expect to see the highs and lows be less drastic as an indication of recovery.

  91. supercritical says:

    Beth Cooper;

    “Three days to WUWT third anniversary. How shall we celebrate this outpost for enlightenment in a dark world?”

    I suggest we all breathe out a lot.

  92. Ursus maritimus says:

    Arctic Sea Ice Extent discussion:
    Hi all,
    Some anecdotal comments.
    It has been quite a stormy fall on southern Baffin Island (my parents live there).
    They report unusually high winds this fall out of the S and SE. Normally they are coming out of the North at this time. This seems to match with Crosspatch’s (22:37:20) comments.
    They had a big storm last night with maximal gusts of 34 knots out of the SE!
    Quite a nice independent weather station in their community if you are curious.
    http://www.kimmirutweather.com/

    Cheers,
    Ursus

  93. Bob Tisdale says:

    Richard deSousa (23:23:53) : You asked, “James Hansen has been very quiet lately… is he sensing a turn in the climate? Certainly the climate temperatures have flattened has started to cool during the past decade which is not according to his computer predictions.”

    Wasn’t he one of the people walking from somewhere on the west coast to somewhere else on the west coast to bring attention to something that needs attention brought to it?

  94. Tenuc says:

    The change to the pattern of the Arctic freeze intrigues me too, although things can change quickly in that part of the world.

    Some idle speculation:-

    I wonder if we are seeing the first signs of a cold NH winter as much of the cold air normally trapped by the Arctic polar vortex seems to be escaping (weak polar vortex due to less energy in ionosphere due to weak solar wind?).

    An increase in temperature at the poles will have a small % effect on the amount of ice, but a major effect on NH continents – more snow – more sunlight reflected to space – more cooling.

    Perhaps this is what causes the LIA?

    Perhaps this is why the

  95. Steve S. says:

    School children being brainwashed in Oregon

    This is so outrageous there should be firings or some way to prosecute the perpetrators.

    http://www.oregonlive.com/tigard/index.ssf/2009/11/studying_polar_bears_gives_southridge_student_a_lesson_on_global_warming.html

    Studying polar bears gives Southridge student a lesson on global warming
    By Bill Oram, The Oregonian
    November 12, 2009, 6:00PM

  96. Steve S. says:

    Sample this

    “When even a polar bear is driven to drink, the world really might be in trouble.

    On a recent trip to Canada, 16-year-old Patricia Billette spotted a polar bear lapping up water — unusual, because the arctic predators generally get all the water they need from the icy food they eat. The drinking bear, Billette said, is a telling sign that global warming is affecting the planet and, more specifically, polar bears, which she said are enduring shorter feeding seasons because of warmer weather.”

  97. Tenuc says:

    Sorry, having connectivity problems due to the heavy storms here on the south coast of UK, and the last sentence should read as follows:-

    Perhaps this is why the sun influences climate on a quasi-periodic basis.

  98. Ursus maritimus says:

    > Steve S. (09:08:09) :

    >School children being brainwashed in Oregon

    >This is so outrageous there should be firings or some way to prosecute the >perpetrators.

    >http://www.oregonlive.com/tigard/index.ssf/2009/11/studying_polar_bears_gives_southridge_student_a_lesson_on_global_warming.html

    >Studying polar bears gives Southridge student a lesson on global warming
    >By Bill Oram, The Oregonian
    >November 12, 2009, 6:00PM

    I take this personally! My subpopulation around Churchill is doing quite fine thank-you.
    Grrrrr

    Ursus

  99. Ron de Haan says:

    Stephen Skinner (05:04:33) :

    EU sets 20% target for carbon cuts
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jan/23/climatechange.eu1

    EU ‘will ignore advice to ban bluefin fishing’
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6916573.ece

    Fantastic, so we will get under control a trace element that has changed it’s relationship to the atmosphere by 1% of 1%. Meanwhile we will continue to overfish an important food to the point where it disappears. Any lessons learnt from the Grand Banks?
    The lunatics are running the asylum”.

    It’s worse, corrupt lunatics are running the asylum.

  100. DaveF says:

    TonyB 05: 32: 58:

    Oops! I must have read that bit wrong! A fascinating article of yours, Tony, and I look forward to the rest of the series. Now I must hurry off to Tesco to get some more £2.99 reading glasses.

  101. Richard deSousa says:

    To Bob Tisdale: If Hansen is somewhere in my neck of the woods, SF Bay Area, I haven’t heard or seen any headlines.

  102. Stephen Skinner says:

    anna v (07:21:02) :
    It would be good to have the wind pattern in the arctic, but I cannot find it.

    Try here: http://wxmaps.org/pix/hemi.fcst.html
    There are a variety of charts pressure, temp etc. but maybe you want this one:
    200mb Streamlines & Isotachs – http://wxmaps.org/pix/hemi.jet.html

    Wind is looking like the most likely culprit.

  103. Michael Bott says:

    Simple but effective –

  104. D. King says:

    Steve S. (10:33:41) :
    from the article
    “Using children to promote any propaganda and especially Global
    Warming hysteria is wrong. They don’t have the experience to
    separate fact from fiction and need to be protected from predatory
    adults.”

    “predatory adults”
    Perhaps we need to start an international registry.

  105. D. King says:

    D. King (11:14:53) :
    from the article
    Sorry!
    from the article comments.

  106. Mike Odin says:

    To-

    NZ Willy (21:19:44)

    Here is a clue from the Alaska ice service–
    remember that Alaska gets its data
    (LIVE HUMAN OBSERVATIONS)from fishing
    trawlers and icebreakers —
    AND ALASKA FROWNS UPON AGW–

    http://pafc.arh.noaa.gov/data/ice/ice.png

    THE ALASKA MAP SHOWS TWICE AS MUCH ICE
    AS ANY OF THE POPULAR ICE MAPS BEING
    TOUTED ON THIS SITE AND ELSEWHERE–

    Of course Alaskans only live there . . .

    Stating the answer diplomatically–
    the mapmakers are lying.

    Here is one map that doesn’t
    lie too much–
    (cache it quickly before
    the Watts effect erases it)
    http://polar.ncep.noaa.gov/seaice/hires/global.xml

    And here is a very obscure quote from Hadley–

    “States: Passive microwave underestimates sea ice concentrations by an average of 25% in summer
    (but the underestimate can be more than this) and 5-10% in winter. …. its mostly all in one direction.
    (Met Office, Hadley Centre)”

    http://solarcycle24com.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=globalwarming&action=display&thread=346&page=114#30005

    http://ioc3.unesco.org/oopc/meetings/oopc-9/presentations/monPM/Rayner_OOPC9_pr.pdf

    http://solarcycle24com.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=globalwarming&action=display&thread=346&page=96

    As well, violent icebreaker activity is clearly visible
    as scattered and smashed old ice in these actual satellite photos
    (which also show completely refrozen sea ice–pale green and white)–

    lower right–

    http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/realtime/single.php?2009253/crefl1_143.A2009253000000-2009253000459.250m.jpg

    winds and currents do not smash and scatter
    heavy sea ice as shown in these photos–

    http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/realtime/single.php?2009252/crefl1_143.A2009252205000-2009252205459.250m.jpg

    http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/realtime/2009252/?multiple&resolutionlist

    http://ice-glaces.ec.gc.ca/Ice_Can/Arctic/CVCSWSDNCW.gif

    quite a bit can be gleaned from these photos.

    also from

    http://solarcycle24com.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=globalwarming&action=display&thread=346&page=95
    “Jaxa (AMSR-E) isn’t faulty, just (the algorithms are) badly calibrated, and skips
    all ice extent less than about 80-90% as I’ve shown many times. In fact,
    it appears to need Multiyear ice. This is well understood, as the older ice is denser,
    and has a different radar reflection than new ice.

    The huge area shown as ice north of Alaska ( http://pafc.arh.noaa.gov/data/ice/ice.png), but missing from AMSR_E is mainly new ice. The Alaskan data is accurate, the AMSR-E is just way out.

    Overlays to compare:
    http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp183/kiwistonewall/layer.gif

    http://icecap.us/index.php/go/political-climate/nsidc_pulls_the_plug_on_arctic_sea_ice_graphs/

    Also vividly demonstrating the unreliability and dangers of hyped up ice mapping–
    Midsummer farce in the Arctic: Greenpeas flees ice ‘way thicker than anything we can break’
    they actually believed an ice chart showing low amounts of ice-
    — they were later rescued by an ice breaker and unfortunately
    will again waste the coast guards’ time and efforts next
    summer-
    http://motls.blogspot.com/2009/08/yacht-fiona-hopelessly-trapped-in-ice.html

  107. Ric Werme says:

    Steve S. (09:11:13) :

    Sample this

    “When even a polar bear is driven to drink, the world really might be in trouble.

    On a recent trip to Canada, 16-year-old Patricia Billette spotted a polar bear lapping up water — unusual, because the arctic predators generally get all the water they need from the icy food they eat….”

    And all this time I thought seals were warm blooded mammals.

  108. _Jim says:


    INGSOC (08:05:18) :

    I have decided that my last comment was a little over the top. My sincere apologies for any disrespect. (Insert bow here)

    It’s his handlers who are to be blamed; the old-school Chicago politicians who pull the strings, that, and his own socialist/Marxist anti-capitalist bent, hate of the ‘west’ and at his core, guilt, imbued by Wright pastoral teachings …
    .
    .

  109. Paul Maynard says:

    Re Fat Bigot

    Warren Meyer at Climate Skeptic has covered the cooling caused by aerosols issue in his layman’s guide but in essence: sulfate production peaked way after the cooling had stopped in the 70s; for the cooling to be caused by aerosols we should have seen more cooling in the northern hemispher than the south when in fact the north warmed faster than the south.

    Climate Change Conference at the European Parliament, Nov 18th

    For readers who can get to Brussels, Roger Helmer the conservative MEP has organised the above with speakers including Fred Singer, Tom Segalstad, Ross McKittrick and James Delingpole of the Spectator and Telegraph. If any one is interested, they can contact me at pmaynard@pmaynard.plus.com

    Christopher Monckton gave a powerful lecture to the Insurance Institute of London last Thursday. If anyone wishes to see the slide deck or listen to the podcast, they can contact me at the above email address.

    Last Thursday evening, Ian Plimer gave a talk for the Spectator events series. This was meant to be a debate with I think Monbiot but he demurred. Plimer was eloquent on the geological history. I’d say the audience was 75% sceptic and 25% warmist. The latter just did not want to hear.

    Cheers

    Paul

  110. Glenn says:

    “MAGADAN, November 11 (Itar-Tass) – A frosty weather with temperatures unusually low for this time of the year has descended on the Kolyma River area in the northwest of Siberia.

    Wednesday, the average air temperatures in most parts of the Kolyma basin sank to minus 40 degrees Celsius, and the Kolyma hydrometeorology bureau the record of minus 46 degrees was set in the North Evenk district.

    Frosts of minus 41 degrees have been registered in the Yagodnoye district, and weather surveyors in the town of Seymchan reported minus 44 degrees.

    Forecasters say the temperature in the central parts of the Magadan region may go down further to minus 47 degrees in the next two days. ”

    http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=14517867&PageNum=0

  111. TH says:

    Before the weekend is over, we will be close to our normal annual snowfall here in Northern Colorado. The climate models predicted that Colorado would see later and lighter snowfall, and snow would only accumulate at higher elevations.

  112. Jon Jewett says:

    Science museum poll

    4535 in
    7281 out

    They get the name/email of the “out” people to prove that there is a real person voting. I wonder why they don’t do the same for those voting “in”?

    Reagards,

    Steamboat Jack

  113. Adam Soereg says:

    The NASA GISS website is offline for at least 7-8 consecutive hours now. What could they do for so long? Let I guess they are working on a new adjustment method (or just dropping out some inconvenient rural sites for “better” results).

  114. Glenn says:

    “Unusually early snow storms in north-central China have claimed 40 lives, caused thousands of buildings to collapse and destroyed almost 500,000 acres (200,000 hectares) of winter crops, the Civil Affairs Ministry said Friday.”

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/world/early-snow-storms-in-china-kill-40-damage-more-than-9000-buildings-659-million-in-damage-70091832.html

    (from a post by Rational Debate (02:15:28) in tips and notes)

  115. Mike D. says:

    Ric Werme (21:17:48): …promised ills haven’t happened as promised and it’s too cold in a lot of areas.

    It may not have been promised, but “too cold” is definitely an ill.

    SandyInDerby (00:34:04): So what’s scarier? The most hysterical AGW projections, or the fact that mainstream science has been corrupted by postmodern politics? …Why? and particularly can you prove it?

    The scariest thing is neoglaciation, i.e. the return to Ice Age stadial temperatures. No one can prove predictions until the future comes to pass, but strong evidence suggests that over the last 1.6 million years interglacials have been short-lived compared to glacial stadials, both of which have occurred at regular periodic intervals.

    Lucy (02:44:41): …there’s no need for excessive paranoia.

    Then why is excessive paranoia so rampant? Freakonomic theory holds that humans do not act without incentives. Hence we may conclude that excessive paranoia is generally and specifically incentivized, if not built into our DNA.

    Stacey (03:07:51): It is astounding that there are people who want to pump material into the atmosphere… a gradual process which results eventually in ice ages.

    That’s some useful paranoia, IMHO. Kudos, Stacey. Hope my compliments incentivize you.

    Mark (06:14:33): …there is no doubt the Arctic has been a bit warmer than normal this fall.

    Well, duh — “normal” over the last 1.6 million years is Ice Age polar icecap a kilometer thick. Really bad news for bears, whales, and other living things. Mark, your expression of paranoia is far too mild. Come the next glacial stadial, all manner of terrible things are going to happen (recur). You may wish to reexamine your paranoia level and seek the usual incentives to ramp it up.

    Warmer is Better. Fight the Ice.

  116. Mark_0454 says:

    Al Gore’s latest book at no. 63 on Amazon. It was 70 earlier this morning.

  117. Rob Spooner says:

    Jeff Master’s blog at wunderground has been discussing the floods in Virginia. To show why storms are having more effect now than in the past, he produced a graph of the last 80 years of relative sea level rise at Sewell’s Point VA.

    Now maybe I’m just getting old and my eyesight is not what it once was, but consarn it, that graph looks exactly like a straight line with noise. Where’s the hockey stick?

  118. Juraj V. says:

    I can´t wait when Steve McIntyre starts to replicate the HadCRUT. Look at US temperature record, where the top of 1995-2005 warm part of the cycle is not different from 1930-1940 warm cycle. Of course USA makes just 7% of surface, but it is on the Northern hemisphere which experienced the most pronounced temperature variations and there is the densest net of meteostations in world.
    The same is valid for Arctic – temperatures were similar in 40ties as in 2005.
    Truly rural stations in Central Europe show present cycle warmer by 0,1-0,2 deg C than that from 40ties. There was not much warming in tropics and southern hemisphere use to behave contrary to North, plus there is almost only ocean. So where is the hockey pattern in surface HadCRUT/GISTEMP record coming from, except flawed stations? I suspect the merging algorithm (added value™) must do the job.

    Another thing I realized, that relative warming of Arctic/Siberia looks so high, because Arctic temperature varies 4 times more than global temperature. Baseline 1960-1990 was pretty cold and present top of the warm peak looks much warmer than in other parts of the globe. However, had been the baseline 1920-1950, Arctic should have looked around average today.

  119. Michael says:

    France & Brazil unveil Climate Bible

    Make up your own minds why they use this language.

    “…We are making public … a French-Brazilian text because Brazil and France, we want Copenhagen to be a success, not a cut-price agreement,” Sarkozy told reporters in Paris.

    “We are fighting for the world to live up to its historic responsibility,” the president added.

    Lula hailed the text a “climate bible” and a “historic document”.”

    Regards

    Michael

  120. crosspatch says:

    200mb Streamlines & Isotachs – http://wxmaps.org/pix/hemi.jet.html

    Wind is looking like the most likely culprit.

    Yes, it looks like a rather persistent and quite strong Southerly flow to the East of Iceland. It is going to be difficult for the ice to expand South in the face of that wind and the accompanied pushing of warmer water and air into the region.

  121. Indiana Bones says:

    “China and the U.S. are the two largest contributors of carbon emissions, accounting for over 40% of the world’s total CO2 emissions”
    http://www.codaautomotive.com/index.html

    This statement denies the existence of volcanoes, ocean and land-based outgassing and natural biomass depletion cycles. It is presented in all earnesty by the Chinese car company CODA. They rely on the “Netherlands Environmental Assessment Agency” as the source – which writes reports for The Club of Rome:

    http://www.pbl.nl/en/publications/2009/Growing-within-limits.-A-report-to-the-Global-Assembly-2009-of-the-Club-of-Rome.html

    This is not just a truth-in-advertising issue – it’s about mad-dog alarmism making up statistics. Nothing science-based here. Just political hokem.

  122. Philip Mulholland says:

    anna v (07:21:02) :

    It would be good to have the wind pattern in the arctic.

    Does this help?

    Medium Range Forecasts for the Northern Hemisphere

  123. Moderator: I volunteer this as a guest post: Politicians around the world are making claims for projected sea level rises that have no basis in reality. The new Sea Level Rising page examining claims and actual data for Tuvalu, Australia and Washington State.

  124. wakeupmaggy says:

    Somebody knows this.
    For every pound of human fat burned through exercise, how much extra CO2 is released?

  125. Ric Werme says:

    Jon Jewett (13:10:31) :

    Science museum poll

    They get the name/email of the “out” people to prove that there is a real person voting. I wonder why they don’t do the same for those voting “in”?

    I believe they do ask identical stuff for the count me inners. Did you check?

  126. Stephen Skinner says:

    France & Brazil unveil Climate Bible
    “We are fighting for the world to live up to its historic responsibility,” the president added.

    Is that so?
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6916573.ece
    More than three quarters of countries in Europe recently voted to support a trade ban of the bluefin at CITES but were blocked by Spain, Italy and France and three other Mediterranean nations involved in the controversial fishery.

  127. Richard says:

    hey we beat Bahrain in soccer last night. It was now or never. We wouldnt have got another chance for another 20 odd years. The last time we got in was in 1982.

    Mind you a lot of CO2 was expelled last night. Maybe they should ban the World cup. The motto of Copenhagen – The only good human is a dead human.

  128. crosspatch says:

    Moderator: I volunteer this as a guest post

    This pretty much says all there is to say on that issue.

  129. Rereke Whakaaro says:

    Ric Werme (21:17:48) :
    Discussion question:

    “The percentage of the general public skeptical of climate chane/global warming is rising, I suspect because promised ills haven’t happened as promised and it’s too cold in a lot of areas.

    The media is showing signs of catching on, though some areas and some radio programs still talk about agw with the same certainty as the Sun will rise tomorrow.What timeline do you expect to pass before the mainstream media starts talking about the demise failure of global warming?”

    As I have opined on other threads, it all comes down to a combination of advertising revenue, and a phenomena I call bumstickability.

    The money-flows are interesting. Here is how it works (in most western societies):

    1. An organization that wants funding engages a PR company to “create a media presence”.

    2. The PR people start to issue “press statements” that carry the basic message of the organization with a subliminal message of “give me money”. The “press statements” are presented in various forms – the basic statement – and a set of variations that look, read, and smell like articles in the style of the candidate news media.

    3. Journalists, looking for a simple life, and easy copy, take the “article” and submit it to the editorial process for publication. They don’t bother getting unstuck from their chairs to check anything – the “bumstickability” factor – because it is not worth the effort, and besides they are drinking buddies with the PR folks, and their kids all play together.

    4. The editorial process decides on the merits of the article in terms of, “how much readership will this attract or retain?” The readership size directly relates to how much the publication makes from advertising revenue.

    5. A concerted PR campaign creates nonfactual public consensus (i.e. group-think) in which the belief system has the ability to override factual evidence to the contrary.

    6. This upwelling in public group-think is detected, and mirrored, by the local politicians who will then push for funding to “address the issue” so that they can be seen to be doing something about it.

    7. If the timing is done right, the original organization applies for funding at precisely the time when such funding becomes available. The spin-doctors are very good at timing.

    8. The process continues until a) the government shift budget allocations onto something else; or b) something else comes along that grabs public attention making the original group-think “so yesterday”.

    I suspect that public opinion is starting to get a bit jaded – everybody has seen the movies with the Statue of Liberty covered in ice, and tidal waves washing over the Himalayas – ho hum.

    The AGW crowd may throw more money into getting more funding, and we may go around the cycle again, but the press (and the PR people behind them) are probably running out of ways to frighten children and old ladies.

    Watch for “the next big thing” and you will have your answer. Although, do not expect to see any reversal in reporting in the media – they will just stop reporting anything to do with the climate past the normal weather reports.

  130. Rereke Whakaaro says:

    Kia Ora Richard,

    I hope you were at the match, dressed in you best cricket whites …?

  131. Mike Odin (11:38:49)
    That was a tour de force, interesting Arctic ice evidence there. Sadly my PC could not cope with the heavy-loading stuff. But it did help me understand. Lots of detail issues, some could perhaps easily make JAXA do “unprecedented” wobbles.

    Great discussion on the Solar 24 forum you quote. It’s cooling, as predicted, but it’s warming, as predicted, but you wouldn’t understand, as predicted, so we’ll keep changing our story, as predicted.

    Paul Maynard (12:07:26) : Last Thursday evening, Ian Plimer gave a talk for the Spectator events series. This was meant to be a debate with I think Monbiot but he demurred. Plimer was eloquent on the geological history. I’d say the audience was 75% sceptic and 25% warmist. The latter just did not want to hear.

    Heck, Paul, that reminds me, I saw one of the email exchanges between Monbiot and Plimer over this, somewhere today. Monbiot claimed Plimer was going to duck the debate, but since it was Plimer there and not Monbiot, that looks like being his deluded excuse that he will tell the world. Yuck! But could you email me please re requests, thanks.

    Mike D. (13:15:00) : Lucy (02:44:41)…Lucy (02:44:41): …there’s no need for excessive paranoia.
    That wasn’t me, that was Luke Warmer said that in response to me. Just noting. Not paranoid. Or do you want me to be paranoid, if so I daresay I can oblige…

  132. Smokey says:

    Rereke Whakaaro (17:03:49)
    Ric Werme (21:17:48)

    You might add to your explanation the phenomenon of Informational conformity.

    Informational conformity was first formally documented by Dr Muzafer Sherif in 1935, when he placed a group of subjects in a dark room with a single point of light in the distance. He asked them to estimate how much the light moved around, and although each person perceived a different amount of movement, most of them relinquished their own estimates to conform to the predominant guesses within the group.

    In reality, the light had not been moving at all; it only appeared to move because of the autokinetic effect, a quirk in visual perception where a bright point of light in complete darkness will appear to wander. It is thought that this imagined movement occurs due to the lack of a fixed visual reference point, and it may be the cause of many nighttime UFO sightings. [from 'Damn Interesting']

    Al Gore and the media worked together to paint a picture in the mind of the public: global warming is caused by human activity, it is a threat, and “carbon” is evil.

    Since this wasn’t a big concern at first, people mentally filed it away along with the rest of their daily informational overload. But when they keep hearing it, they mention it to others on occasion. Those who hear trigger phrases like “global warming” naturally assume that everyone thinks that ‘carbon’ [by which they mean CO2, even if they don't know the difference] is a problem, and they tend to conform to what they perceive the group thinks. In the early stages, few people went around proclaiming what the established science mainstream said: that carbon dioxide is beneficial and harmless.

    The more educated, who understood that CO2 is a harmless minor trace gas, felt no need to make the effort to explain that the alarmists were crackpots. But politicians count votes, and the alarming claim that CO2 controls the climate, and that it was out of control, began to get traction. Scientists need a paycheck like everyone else, and it was easier keeping quiet than jeopardizing their livelihood by speaking out. Which is why there is such a preponderance of skeptics among retired scientists.

    By the time An Inconvenient Truth appeared, informational conformity had already provided a big push for the belief that carbon is bad, and grant money began to flow.

    Since informational conformity is a trait that is hard wired in our brains, it takes a lot of education to overcome the emotional response to the evil “carbon.” Education is finally beginning to show positive results. But it has taken a major effort. And we’re not quite out of the woods yet.

    If it were not for sites like WUWT, the “science” would have already been settled.

  133. anna v says:

    Thanks for the links, Philip and Stephen.

    Yes, it helps.

    I may be slow in responding if someone addresses me for the next ten days as I am off the France visiting and online time dubious.

  134. Bob Tisdale says:

    Richard deSousa: Sorry, I was off a month. The walk ended started on September 20 in Coos Bay, OR and ended 350 miles later in Portland on October 24th.
    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/09/16/man-to-walk-350-miles-to-highlight-climate-change-no-mention-of-how-hes-getting-back/

    Just goes to show how closely I keep track of public awareness stunts.

  135. Phil Clarke says:

    Richard deSouza… James Hansen has been very quiet lately… is he sensing a turn in the climate?

    Well, to be fair, he has apologised

    Sorry to be uncommunicative the past few months, in large part because I had to deal with prostate cancer – which took longer than I expected

    But he did manage to present to the Club of Rome, pointing out that The fraction of CO2 remaining in the air, after emission by fossil fuel
    burning, declines rapidly at first, but 1/3 remains in the air after a century and 1/5 after a millennium (Atmos. Chem. Phys. 7, 2287-2312, 2007).

    I wish Dr Hansen a speedy and complete recovery.

  136. Ken S says:

    “wakeupmaggy (15:12:06) :

    Somebody knows this.
    For every pound of human fat burned through exercise, how much extra CO2 is released?”

    I know the answer, Very simple,,,, NOT ENOUGH!

  137. Richard says:

    Kia Ora Rereke, alas no had to watch it on TV but it was great heart stopping.

  138. Phil Clarke says:

    Paul and Lucy

    It is a matter of demonstrable and recorded fact that it was Plimer who reneged on his side of the agreement. Monbiot accepted Plimer’s challenge to a debate, with a counter-proposal that the debate should take the form of first a written and then a face-to-face component. Monbiot would publish a list of questions about the apparent scientific errors in Plimer’s book, the Professor would then answer these, in writing, and the process would move onto a public debate co-sponsored by The Spectator and The Guardian.

    Email correspondence shows that both The Spectator and Plimer agreed to this proposal.

    And when I say scienntific erros, I mean the kind of stuff that led Professor David Karoly of the University of Melbourne’s School of Earth Sciences to write..”Given the errors, the non-science, and the nonsense in this book, it should be classified as science fiction in any library that wastes its funds buying it.” And you can find a list of 100+ errors of science, logic and fact in Plimer’s book documented here

    After first agreeing to answer Monbiot’s questions, most of which were straightforward requests for the source of, or supporting evidence for, the more remarkable claims in his book, a request most authors could answer in an afternoon from their research notes, Plimer reneged on the agreement. No answers to Monbiot’s questions were forthcoming, instead the Professor responded with a list of questions of his own. These read like undergraduate exam questions composed by Lewis Carroll:

    Calculate 10 Ma time flitches using W/R ratios of 10, 100 and 500 for the heat addition to the oceans, oceanic pH changes and CO2 additions to bottom waters by alteration of sea floor rocks to greenschist and amphibolite facies assemblages, the cooling of new submarine volcanic rocks (including MORBs) and the heat, CO2 and CH4 additions from springs and gas vents since the opening of the Atlantic Ocean. From your calculations, relate the heat balance to global climate over these 10 Ma flitches. What are the errors in your calculations? Show all calculations and discuss the validity of any assumptions made.

    If anyone knows what a time flitch is, please add a comment. btw Gavin Schmidt of NASA had a go at answering Plimer’s ludicrous attempt at obfustication.)

    And that is the short version of why Plimer ended up debating himself. Not his finest hour.

  139. Jon Jewett says:

    Ric Werme (15:20:01) :

    Rick,

    Good point. I assumed and you know what that does!

    Thank you.

    Steamboat Jack

  140. Richard says:

    Phil Clarke (18:12:31) : Hansen “..Massachusetts could provide a tipping point.”

    The “tipping point” he is talking about is not runaway global warming – not unstoppable climate change, not the melting of Greenland, its a purely political “tipping point”. The words of an uncompromising political fanatic not a scientist.

    Blizzards seem to follow him around but he preaches warming in the midst of them as does Al Gore.

  141. hotrod says:

    If anyone knows what a time flitch is, please add a comment.

    Websters Third New international Dictionary

    Flitch: To flay

    2b : a complete package of thin sheets of veneer laid in sequence as they are sawed or sliced 3: one of several elements (as planks or iron plates) that are secured together side by side to make a large girder or laminated beam

    It would as used in context be an ordered set of or sequence of time slices.

    Google and the internet are not always good sources to find definitions of terms that are not in common modern usage. The term as defined in the dictionary appears to have been commonly used in the fish, meat and lumber industry as most of the examples listed referenced one of the other application. It would probably be obvious to someone who grew up in a fishing or logging community prior to the 1960’s. This dictionary volume is dated 1966.

    Larry

  142. _Jim says:


    Phil Clarke (18:57:00) :

    Paul and Lucy

    It is a matter of demonstrable and recorded fact that it was Plimer who reneged on his side of the agreement. Monbiot accepted Plimer’s challenge to a debate, with a counter-proposal that the debate should take the form of first a written and then a face-to-face component.

    Please demonstrate; I am having difficulty detecting a renege where Monbiot further stipulates a list of questions HE provides must first be answered by Plimer … were not the goal posts moved after a debate was agreed to?

    This short excerpt, written by Monbiot, shows it is he who will not debate (after having moved the goal posts on Plimer/requiring written answers to written questions):

    02 September 2009

    Dear Phoebe,

    I’m sorry not to have replied before – I am recovering from surgery. Please be aware that Professor Plimer has not yet met my conditions for the debate and shows no sign of doing so. I repeat – it cannot go ahead until he has done so. So please do not market it yet: he will be wasting your time and money if he won’t meet my terms.

    Again, Phil Clarke, please demonstrate it was ‘Plimer who reneged'; I saw NO direct correspondence directly from Plimer on your cited “Email correspondence” website indicating he was reneging.
    .
    .
    .

  143. _Jim says:


    Phil Clarke (18:57:00) :

    And when I say scienntific erros [sic], I mean the kind of stuff that led Professor David Karoly of the University of Melbourne’s School of Earth Sciences to write..”Given … it should be classified as science fiction … .”

    In your post above you supplied a link to a document by Ian G. Enting addressing Plimer’s work; do you have a link to the words spoken/written by Professor David Karoly of the University of Melbourne’s School of Earth Sciences?

    Do you have anything where Professor David Karoly that addresses Plimers work (or was it just the denigrating pull-quote you needed from him)?
    .
    .

  144. James Allison says:

    Oops the Himalayan glaciers are not melting after all.

    http://theresilientearth.com/?q=content/himalayan-glaciers-not-melting

  145. Tenuc says:

    Spen (06:29:30) :

    ‘ anna v (00:49:41) :
    Hey, denialists, a la Lindzen, have you voted?

    http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/proveit.aspx

    The no seem to be stalled ( like the ice). Has it reached saturation of available votes? it used to be 3 no to 1 yes. Of course schools visiting the museum will be voting yes, because the thing is guiding them to “yes”, but where have the denialists gone?’

    “The poll doesn’t accept my email address – that’s one way of fixing the no vote.”

    Reply: Get yourself a Googlemail account and try again – they’re free and available here (just click the link bottom right of the page) :-

    https://www.google.com/accounts/ServiceLogin?service=mail&passive=true&rm=false&continue=http%3A%2F%2Fmail.google.com%2Fmail%2F%3Fhl%3Den%26tab%3Dwm%26ui%3Dhtml%26zy%3Dl&bsv=zpwhtygjntrz&scc=1&ltmpl=default&ltmplcache=2&hl=en

  146. Tenuc says:

    UK Warnings
    BBC Weather Forecast
    Last updated: Sunday 15th November at 00:05 UTC

    “Weather Warning
    Sunday 15 November
    Further spells of wet and windy weather are expected to affect England and Wales again on Monday. Adding to recent poor weather this could lead to further local flooding and disruption”

    There are 8 flood warnings in place.

    Looks like Piers Corbin’s October prediction was right again – bet the UK Met Office love this guy… :-)

  147. DaveE says:

    Yet another free energy scam with Barrage balloons for airliners

    DaveE.

  148. DaveE says:

    Damn!

    Eaten by the spam filter again.

    DaveE.

  149. tallbloke says:

    David Alan (23:39:12) :

    Being open-thread night, I thought this would be a good place to the mention that WUWT is approaching its third anniversary.

    Looking through the archives, I found this:
    Welcome To: Watts Up With That?
    http://wattsupwiththat/2006/11/17/welcome-to-watts-up-with-that/

    Good spot David.

    The eighth post on the blog on the 26th Nov 2006 was this one:
    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2006/11/26/greenhouse-gas-stablizes-on-its-own-scientists-confused/

    Which attracted one response at the time, from Emerson Carter, who linked to his site at: http://www.globalwarmingindex.com/ Which is no longer running. The wayback machine is down for maintanence, I’ll check it later today.

    I suggest we make 26th Nov a national holiday. :-)

  150. Iren says:

    Is this the Dr. Karoly you’re talking about?

    http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/the_vested_interests_rudd_warned_of/

    He seems to be a professional warmist. Certainly, he’s the Australian media’s first port of call to squash any heretical comment (as much of it as they permit to infiltrate their well guarded portals).

  151. Philip Mulholland says:

    In winter Оймякон (Oymyakon or Ojmjakon) in Yakutia, Siberia, often experiences some of the coldest temperatures recorded in the northern hemisphere. Here is the translated link to the Russian weather data , probably from the airport at nearby Tomtor (63.25N 143.15E).

    N.B. From http://www.hmn.ru/index.php?index=46&value=24688

    The success of forecasts
    If in the past week the actual temperatures are lower than predicted, you will see a message like “Warning: The projections for the first day in this city over the past week were unsuccessful! Error for the night -10 ..- 17 ° C, on day -2 ..- 14 ° C “, where the numbers indicate error range from a minimum to the maximum for the night and / or days. Usually this is due to the neglect in the predictive model of local conditions, under certain weather patterns. For example, forecasts for Yakutsk, or Oimyakon are characterized by a considerable overestimation of winter temperatures under conditions of clear skies and no wind.

  152. Philip Mulholland says:

    I don’t know why the Google Translate link above misses out the code ending &value=24688 for Oymyakon from http://www.hmn.ru/index.php?index=46&value=24688

  153. mani says:

    “Monckton finds out his views on the Copenhagen summit were too extreme even for the Fox News host”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2009/oct/30/lord-monckton-glenn-beck-copenhagen

    A guardian reader (a middle class, leftish brit), is not going to be a fan of Beck. So here is an easy guilt by association: “too far out there even for the uber-conservative Fox talkshow host Glenn Beck.”

    (There’s a good chance a Gaurdian reader won’t even watch the show, leaving
    only this rather distorting report. A friend only lasted a minute, repulsed by
    Glen, seeing him as a disgusting brain-washing hypocrite, I tried to point out that, accurate as she may be, Glen wasn’t why we were watching it, but to no avail.)

    I thought this was a typical trick, but it’s worse, and simpler than that:

    “Monckton’s circus of climate change denial arrives in cloud cuckoo land”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2009/oct/20/climate-change-denial-monckton

    (Sorry, their Environment blog appears to be sponsored by Shell….)

    And here is “Monbiot’s royal flush: Top 10 climate change deniers”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/georgemonbiot/2009/mar/06/climate-change-deniers-top-10

    Including Václav Klaus, ‘a promoter of “gangster capitalism”‘ but serious
    opponent of the Lisbon treaty…

    The editors must be really perplexed by the number intelligent comments suggesting their readership isn’t buying it. But despite that, why is there such a Left/Right split on this issue? WUWT readers do seem to be dominantly conservative, and I can understand why, but has the left been so thoroughly usurped already? Is there something about left leaning mentalities that
    lends itself to gullibility, deference to ‘experts’ and a preference for consistency (of ideology) over reason?

    Makes me wonder what the Guardian is guarding after all. Oh hang on, guards usually guard gates don’t they. That’s it, it should be called: The Gatekeeper.

  154. Mike Lorrey says:

    41% of Britons believe in AGW: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1227745/Most-Britons-dont-believe-climate-change-man-made.html

    Milliband is very cross with all the deniers…

  155. Phil Clarke says:

    See here and here

    According to Monbiot, Plimer wrote to him and said “he would address my questions and send me some of his own “after undergraduate lectures have finished today”. This was on Friday 7 August.

    The Karoly quote is from a lengthy review of the book here http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2009/2593166.htm [click Show Transcript] . I could also have quoted Michael Ashley, professor of astrophysics at the University of NSW:

    “Plimer has done an enormous disservice to science, and the dedicated scientists who are trying to understand climate and the influence of humans, by publishing this book. It is not “merely” atmospheric scientists that would have to be wrong for Plimer to be right. It would require a rewriting of biology, geology, physics, oceanography, astronomy and statistics. Plimer’s book deserves to languish on the shelves along with similar pseudo-science such as the writings of Immanuel Velikovsky and Erch von Daniken.”

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/ian-plimer-heaven-and-earth/story-e6frg8no-1225710387147

    You may recall that the original release of the documentary ‘Global Warming Swindle’ included the false claim that volcanoes emit more CO2 than human activity. You may also recall that the director removed this claim from subsequent releases. But you can still find this nonsense being repeated by Plimer, on a BBC 4 Radio programme..

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2009/nov/13/climate-deniers-today-programme

  156. Beth Cooper says:

    HR (07:25:01
    Re: Celebrating WUWT anniversaty, I’d thought a candle lit dinner, but a charcoal BBQ does have appeal!

  157. Smokey says:

    Phil Clarke (04:10:39),

    You’re arm-waving over the mote in someone else’s eye, when there’s a beam in your own eye.

    Let us know when Al Gore agrees to debate — or to even answer routine unscripted questions. Let us know when any of the Hokey Team at realclimate works up the nerve to debate Viscount Monckton. Let us know when 0bama learns the difference between “carbon” and carbon dioxide. And wake me when Lisa Jackson, who heads the EPA, debates Prof Richard Lindzen over labeling CO2 as a “pollutant.”

  158. Sandy says:

    ” included the false claim that volcanoes emit more CO2 than human activity. ”
    So in the last 200 years has more CO2 been released by Humans or volcanoes?
    It is an interesting claim but fairly meaningless without an attached time span.
    However that makes it unproven, not false (and presumably proved to be so).
    Since estimates of total CO2 exchange, both biological and geological, are deeply dubious, I really can’t worry about the conclusions drawn from them.

  159. Phil Clarke says:

    Let us know when any of the Hokey Team at realclimate works up the nerve to debate Viscount Monckton.

    Well thats clearly not gonna happen. Why on earth would a professional climate scientist invest his valuable time debating someone who has ludicrously accused them of genocide, someone whose ‘science’ is brim-full of errors, someone who spends a lot of his time simply making stuff up, and who represents himself as ‘a member of the Upper House of the United Kingdom legislature’ when he is no such thing and never has been?

    Clearly such a debate would not advance our understanding one jot, the reason the Viscount is so keen is that he wants to be seen sharing a platform with a real scientist … I am reminded of Richard Dawkins explanation of why he will not debate creationists …

  160. Rob says:

    Electric cars may not reduce carbon dioxide emissions – and could even increase them, a green lobby group warned yesterday.

    The Environmental Transport Association said generating electricity – by burning coal and oil – to charge the so-called ‘clean’ cars could cancel out the benefit of abandoning fossil fuel vehicles.

    Well it took these brain dead idiots long enough to figure that one out.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1227106/The-dirty-electric-cars-actually-increase-CO2.html

  161. Jimbo says:

    This one is for the population alarmists.

    “SOMETIME in the next few years (if it hasn’t happened already) the world will reach a milestone: half of humanity will be having only enough children to replace itself. That is, the fertility rate of half the world will be 2.1 or below. This is the “replacement level of fertility”, the magic number that causes a country’s population to slow down and eventually to stabilise. According to the United Nations population division, 2.9 billion people out of a total of 6.5 billion were living in countries at or below this point in 2000-05. The number will rise to 3.4 billion out of 7 billion in the early 2010s and to over 50% in the middle of the next decade. The countries include not only Russia and Japan but Brazil, Indonesia, China and even south India……

    Fertility has dropped further in every South-East Asian country (except the Philippines) than it did in Japan. The rate in Bangladesh fell by half from six to three in only 20 years (1980 to 2000). The same decline took place in Mauritius in just ten (1963-73). Most sensational of all is the story from Iran.”

    http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14743589

  162. Dave Wendt says:

    Phil Clarke (07:10:14) :
    Let us know when any of the Hokey Team at realclimate works up the nerve to debate Viscount Monckton.

    Well thats clearly not gonna happen. Why on earth would a professional climate scientist invest his valuable time debating someone who has ludicrously accused them of genocide, someone whose ’science’ is brim-full of errors, someone who spends a lot of his time simply making stuff up,….

    Why indeed? Monckton is obviously someone who is better at their own game than they are. But perhaps you can explain why Algore the failed Divinity student, Schmidt the mathematician, Hansen the Astronomer, Monbiot the physicist whose only attempts at science seem to involve fuel cell technology, and Monbiot the Zoologist who seems never to have attempted any zoology are equally reticent about sharing a forum with Lindzen, Spenser, or anyone else whose field of study actually involves weather or climatology.

  163. Tenuc says:

    Phil Clarke (07:10:14) :

    How wrong can you be. Over the history of the Earth volcano’s have pumped out several orders of magnitude more CO2 that total man-made emissions.

    Lord Monckton is a master debater who knows his stuff – no wonder Monbiot et al are terrified of sharing a stage with him. The CAGW has been well and truly falsified – look at the FACTS and you can draw no other conclusion.

    Sorry that this doesn’t fit with your belief system, but life is hard.

  164. Dave Wendt says:

    Errata; should have been Romm the physicist…

  165. Robert E. Phelan says:

    Phil Clarke (07:10:14) :

    “… and who represents himself as ‘a member of the Upper House of the United Kingdom legislature’ when he is no such thing and never has been?…”

    I’d be very interested in seeing a citation for the quote since it is highly unlikely that Lord Monckton would use that phraseology himself. If you citation should, perhaps, be Wikipedia, then you fail the course. The discussion tab at Wikipedia is always so much more illuminating than the actual article:

    Errors by Wikipedia in Lord Monckton’s biography

    Please note that a well-funded campaign paid for by a convicted fraudster who owns a solar-energy corporation and thus has a vested interest in advancing the “global warming” scare is linked to various people who, full time, detrimentally edit the Wikipedia pages of scientists and others who question the alarmist viewpoint. They use automatic bots to monitor the pages, and automatically reverse within minutes any changes intended to restore the truth and remove inaccuracies. The Monckton biography is one of those pages that has been subjected to this corrupt form of editing. Users should note that the following are among the offending passages that have appeared, and may still appear, and which Wikipedia refuses to remove.

    Offending passage 1: “.. and has attracted controversy for his public opposition to the mainstream scientific consensus on climate change”. Reason for correction: “Mainstream scientific consensus” is a matter of opinion, not of biographical fact. Furthermore, tendentious commentary of this kind has no place in what is presented as though it were supposed to be a factual biography. Proposed correction: Replace by “and opposes the theory that anthropogenic climate change may prove catastrophic”.

    Offending passage 2: “Although he has in the past stated that he is ‘a member of the Upper House of the United Kingdom legislature,’[3] Monckton has never been a member of either the House of Lords or the House of Commons.” Reason for correction: Lord Monckton has never said he is a sitting member of the House of Lords: he is, however, a member of the Upper House by succession (hence his title), is registered as such on the list of Peers entitled to be elected by his fellow hereditary peers, and, as a member of the House in good standing, is entitled to use its facilities, though not to speak or vote in the Chamber, for it is in this sense alone that the House of Lords Act 1999 removes the right of membership from hereditary Peers. Proposed correction: Preferably, delete this damaging libel altogether. Otherwise, replace by “He is a hereditary peer, but his father’s automatic right to sit and vote, like that of most hereditary Peers, was terminated by the Peerage Act 1999”.

    Offending passage 3: “… he later admitted he fabricated the story as a publicity stunt.” Reason: Lord Monckton fabricated no such story and has never said that he did so. We note that this passage is not referenced. Whatever the reference that may (or may not) underlie this libel, it is false. Proposed correction: Preferably, delete altogether. Otherwise, replace by “… he sold his house one month before he was required to pay the £1 million prize to the winners.”

    Offending passage 4: “Monckton has been described as “a fervent, forthright and opinionated Roman Catholic Tory” [7] who has been closely associated with the “New Right” faction of the Conservative Party.” Reason: This is a tendentious, inaccurate, and somewhat pejorative misrepresentation of Lord Monckton’s opinions and political and religious affiliations. In particular, Lord Monckton has not been “closely associated with the ‘New Right’”. In fact, he is known chiefly for his expert knowledge of reforming taxes and benefits to end working-class poverty, a matter on which he advised Margaret Thatcher during her term as Prime Minister, leading inter alia not only to the sale of 1 million council houses to their tenants but also to major reforms of the structure of both taxes and benefits, including ending the separate taxation of husband and wife, to the great benefit of families; significant increases in child benefits as a step towards eradicating primary poverty; a root-and-branch reform and simplification of housing benefit; and the ending of large-scale homelessness by compelling local authorities either to put tenants in empty publicly-owned houses or to sell them at advantageous prices to poor people who could not otherwise afford to house themselves. None of these hallmark policies could by any stretch of the imagination be described as “New Right”, or right wing at all. Proposed correction: Delete the offending passage.

    Offending passage 5: “In more recent years, he has been associated with the Referendum Party, advising its founder Sir James Goldsmith, and in 2003 he helped a Scottish Tory breakaway group, the People’s Alliance”. Reason: This passage is misleading. In fact, it was Lord Monckton’s consultancy company that acted, in a professional capacity, for Sir James Goldsmith, and also for the Scottish People’s Alliance. The words “Scottish Tory breakaway group” are a matter of opinion and have no place in a supposedly unprejudiced biographical entry. Proposed correction: Preferably, delete altogether. Otherwise, replace by “Lord Monckton’s consultancy company has acted for several political parties, among others Sir James Goldsmith’s Referendum Party, providing it with the names of many hundreds of candidates, and the People’s Alliance (later the New Party), whose first manifesto he helped to draft.”

    Offending passage 6: “Monckton’s views on how the AIDS epidemic should be tackled have been the subject of some controversy.” Reason: This formulation goes beyond a mere biographical entry. Proposed correction: Either delete the entire passage about AIDS altogether or replace by “Lord Monckton’s recommendations in 1985/6, following advice from specialist medical researchers into HIV, that AIDS should be treated like any other fatal infection were not acted upon. Since that time, according to UN statistics, some 25 million people have died of AIDS, and 40 million more are infected. Lord Monckton regards this as a cruel and continuing tragedy, and is currently working with academic medical specialists to find a cure, which is to be tested shortly.”

    Offending passage 7: “… there is only one way to stop AIDS. That is to screen the entire population regularly and to quarantine all carriers of the disease for life. Every member of the population should be blood-tested every month … all those found to be infected with the virus, even if only as carriers, should be isolated compulsorily, immediately, and permanently.” Reason: this quotation has been wrenched out of context, and is incomplete and, consequently, unfair to Lord Monckton. Proposed correction: Either delete the entire passage about AIDS altogether or add: “Lord Monckton made plain, however, that isolation of the infected – the standard method for containing fatal communicable diseases to spare the uninfected – should be humanely done, and need not be as drastic as that which had helped to eradicate previous fatal infections.”

    Offending passage 8: “Monckton has since modified his views on AIDS, stating that ‘the article was written at the very outset of the AIDS epidemic, and with 33 million people around the world now infected, the possibility of [quarantine] is laughable. It couldn’t work.’ Reason: Lord Monckton has not “modified his views on AIDS”: he considers that, at the time when it could have been prevented from killing tens of millions, the usual public-health measures ought to have been taken. Unfortunately, now that there are 40 million infected, it is no longer possible to contain the disease as he had recommended 20 years ago. Proposed correction: Delete this passage altogether.

    Offending passage 9: “His petition for judicial review was dismissed by the court for want of relevancy”. Reason: this passage unfairly omits to state that the judge expressed considerable sympathy for Lord Monckton’s position throughout the case, and is unfairly pejorative in the circumstances. Proposed correction: Replace by “The court expressed considerable sympathy for Lord Monckton’s position, and only found against him when a line item was discovered in that year’s European Union budget authorizing the expenditure by the UK on the social chapter of the Maastricht Treaty which Parliament had previously and expressly refused to sanction. The Government of the day took Lord Monckton’s challenge seriously enough to put up the Lord Advocate in person against him; and the outcome was such that the Lord Advocate was unable to recover his expenses in the cause.”

    Offending passage 10: “His views have attracted controversy and strong criticism from scientists and environmental activists, including Al Gore and George Monbiot.” Reason: Neither Al Gore nor George Monbiot has any qualifications in any climate-related science; and it seems unfair that what is supposed to be a straightforward, biographical article should not only contain tendentious material of this kind but should also fail to mention the numerous scientists who have cited Lord Monckton’s work with approval, and have even cited him in peer-reviewed papers as having assisted them. Proposed correction: Delete the offending passage.

    Offending passage 11: “Gavin Schmidt has criticised Monckton’s analysis of climate sensitivity as “sleight-of-hand to fool the unwary” [1]. Dr. Stephan Harrison criticises Moncktons’ articles as “full of errors, misuse of data and cherry-picked examples” [2]. The British writer and environmentalist George Monbiot has criticized Monckton’s arguments as “cherry-picking, downright misrepresentation and pseudo-scientific gibberish.”[18] Reason: Once again, Wikipedia has cherry-picked statements made by scientists at the invitation of Monbiot, whose newspaper was compelled to print a strongly-worded correction by Lord Monckton the day after Monbiot had published a scientifically-erroneous article attempting to criticize Lord Monckton inappropriately for having misunderstood the fundamental equation of radiative transfer, of which Monbiot had no knowledge, and which Monbiot had himself grievously misunderstood. Proposed correction: Delete this passage.

    Offending passage 12: “Monckton’s critics charge that “[his] science is self-taught and his paper qualifications nonexistent”[15] and that “he is trying to take on the global scientific establishment on the strength of a classics degree from Cambridge.”[23] For his part, Monckton takes the view that it is “a very modern notion that you need paper qualifications to pronounce on anything and it comes from the socialist idea that people need to be trained in the official, accepted, dogmatic truths.”[15] Reason: Yet again, only pejorative opinions of Lord Monckton’s research are cited. Proposed correction: Delete this passage.

    Offending passage 13: “… part of Frontiers of Freedom, a conservative organization funded by ExxonMobil that has campaigned against the screening of An Inconvenient Truth in U.S. schools.[27]” Reason: This passage is not only tendentious but is at all points factually incorrect. The Science and Public Policy Institute is not and was not ever a part of “Frontiers of Freedom”; nor has it ever campaigned against the screening of Al Gore’s sci-fi comedy horror movie in schools, though it has recommended that, by way of balance, schools should also show Lord Monckton’s movie Apocalypse? NO! Proposed correction: delete the offending passage.

    Offending passage 14: “He is also funding the distribution to schools of the controversial documentary The Great Global Warming Swindle as a riposte to Gore’s film.”[23] Reason: This passage is both tendentious and inaccurate: tendentious because it describes one film as “controversial” without describing the other as controversial (a High Court Judge, after all, has described Al Gore’s “Armageddon scenario” as “not based on any scientific view”); inaccurate because Lord Monckton is not funding any distribution to schools, nor has he ever said he is doing so or will do so. It appears that, yet again, Wikipedia has readily accepted and repeated errors detrimental to Lord Monckton and published in an unverified source, without having checked it with Lord Monckton. Indeed, on no occasion has anyone from Wikipedia ever checked Lord Monckton’s entry with him before publishing it on the Web. Proposed correction: Delete this error entirely.

    Offending passage 15: “He is a supporter of The New Party, which lent its political support to the litigation over Gore’s film, and wrote part of its manifesto.” Reason: This passage is inaccurate. Lord Monckton’s consultancy provided professional help to his then clients the New Party (then the Scottish People’s Alliance) by assisting in the preparation of its first manifesto. He is not and has never been a member or supporter of the New Party – indeed, contrary to the false impressions scattered throughout the libelous Wikipedia entry now complained of, he does not in fact belong to any political party, and has not done so for many years, though he was simultaneously a member of the Conservative and Labour Associations at university so that he could familiarize himself with both sides of the political debate. He was not even a member of the Conservative party during his four years as a special adviser to Margaret Thatcher at 10 Downing Street. Proposed correction: Delete the offending passage.

    Offending passage 16: “… described as “showing Monckton presenting a slide show in a vitriolic attack on climate change science.”[23] Reason: Yet again, only a pejorative comment has been selected for inclusion, when a properly-constructed biographical entry would merely have reported the fact that Lord Monckton had made a movie questioning Gore’s [proven scientifically-inaccurate] representations of climate science; and a balanced entry, even if it had decided to include comments, would have included some of the numerous favourable comments that Lord Monckton’s movie has received, by way of balance to the above-quoted pejorative comments. Proposed correction: Delete the offending passage.

    The link to the Wikipedia discussion page is here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Christopher_Monckton,_3rd_Viscount_Monckton_of_Brenchley

    Now, Phil, please take your discussion elsewhere.

  166. “I’m off this weekend and part of next week”

    Hmm….could it be… yes it could!
    http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.php/dadgd/print/0013724

    That is certainly an important conference! Best of luck, I hope we get a report or two…

  167. Robert E. Phelan says:

    When you rush things you make mistakes. “discussion POINTS” is what I meant. “Discussion Points.” Honest discussion is always welcome; talking points are not honest discussion.

  168. Phil Clarke says:

    Robert,

    I’d be very interested in seeing a citation for the quote since it is highly unlikely that Lord Monckton would use that phraseology himself.

    well, he did in fact use exactly those words; the source of the quote is an open letter from the Viscount to Senators Snowe and Rockefeller in which he says:

    “, you may wonder why it is that a member of the Upper House of the United
    Kingdom legislature
    , wholly unconnected with and unpaid by the corporation that is the victim of your lamentable letter, should take the unusual step of calling upon you as
    members of the Upper House of the United States legislature …”

    http://ff.org/centers/csspp/pdf/20061212_monckton.pdf

    The reality is that Viscount Monckton inherited his title and has never sat as a Member of the House of Lords. He stood for election to the House as one of a number of hereditary peers but received no votes from his, er, peers.

    He also should not really be using that crowned portcullis logo on his stuff …In 1996, the usage of the crowned portcullis was formally authorised by licence granted by Her Majesty the Queen for the two Houses unambiguously to use the device and thus to regulate its use by others (copy of formal grant in appendix). The emblem should not be used for purposes to which such authentication is inappropriate, or where there is a risk that its use might wrongly be regarded, or represented as having the authority of the House.”

    http://www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/g09.pdf

    So we see the master debater misrepresenting his credentials, fabricating graphs and failing to address over a hundred scientific errors. I am afraid the relevance of the large wiki discussion page copy-and-paste escapes me.

  169. Phil Clarke says:

    Tenuc

    How wrong can you be. Over the history of the Earth volcano’s have pumped out several orders of magnitude more CO2 that total man-made emissions.

    May I suggest you read what Plimer actually says in the BBC Radio interview transcript – he uses the present tense – he is clearly referring to present-day emissions.

  170. Scott says:

    Just read this article in this month’s Wired Magazine. It discusses a movement in some people against child vaccinations due to the belief that they could cause Autism. The parallel between this and AGW is uncanny… although I haven’t looked into this to see if the author’s statements are true!
    http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience/

  171. Smokey says:

    Phil Clarke (13:22:51),

    We actually know very little about how much CO2 is generated by undersea volcanoes. Every time new ones are discovered, the estimate goes up.

    But we still know far too little; the ocean is a very big place.

    Recent estimates concluded that there were a few thousand undersea volcanoes. But new estimates have raised that number to over 3 million undersea volcanoes. [source]

    With a thousand times as many undersea volcanoes emitting CO2 as we thought there were just two years ago, human emissions become even more insignificant in the scheme of things.

    Taking major, economy crippling actions on CO2 emissions, when we don’t even have accurate numbers, is crazy… unless there is an unspoken agenda in play. Which do you think is happening?

  172. James Allison says:

    Phil Clarke (07:10:14) :

    “Clearly such a debate would not advance our understanding one jot, the reason the Viscount is so keen is that he wants to be seen sharing a platform with a real scientist … I am reminded of Richard Dawkins explanation of why he will not debate creationists …”

    Phil so you know the Viscount well enough to understand how he thinks – do you?

    Point being Phil you do need to advance your understanding many amounts of jots. Any debate with the skeptical community about the SCIENCE behind determining what really causes climate change should broaden your view point. Sadly you appear to come here to denigrate and that is not a substitute for healthy debate.

    Oh and thanks for your Dawkins reference – highly relevant to the ongoing problem skeptics have debating science with alarmists.

    Speaking of religion can you enlighten the Skeptics visiting this blog with any empirical proof showing causation between CO2 and global temperature increases. And also a source list of any computer based climate simulations that have made correct predictions during the last 20 years.

    Regards

  173. Ric Werme says:

    Carsten Arnholm, Norway (11:17:54) :

    “I’m off this weekend and part of next week”

    Hmm….could it be… yes it could!
    http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.php/dadgd/print/0013724

    That is certainly an important conference! Best of luck, I hope we get a report or two…

    Well done Carsten!

    It looks like one speaker is rewriting his talk:

    14.40 Dr Hans Labohm, independent economist and expert reviewer IPCC
    Economical, political and social consequences of a COP15 agreement

  174. Robert E. Phelan says:

    Phil Clarke (13:01:50) :
    “I’d be very interested in seeing a citation for the quote since it is highly unlikely that Lord Monckton would use that phraseology himself.”

    Thank you for the reference. I apparently stand corrected… he did use that terminology. Gotta keep things simple for us colonials, I guess.

    “So we see the master debater misrepresenting his credentials, fabricating graphs and failing to address over a hundred scientific errors. I am afraid the relevance of the large wiki discussion page copy-and-paste escapes me.”

    I’m sure it did. I learned something new, even if it was from Wiki. Lord Monckton is in fact a member of the House of Lords (if we can believe the wiki discussion, which by the way, I suspect was submitted by Lord Monckton himself…. but that’s just a surmise… the UK spellings and the impeccable grammar are my clues…) albeit without voting rights, but, if true, then he has every right to what he has claimed. It may seem obfuscatory to Americans, to whom everything is black and white, but the UK system is very decidely grey.

    I notice, too, that you continue to impugn the messenger without addressing the message.

  175. Roger Sowell says:

    Getting mighty cold in Southern California. Freeze warnings tonight in Palmdale (high desert north of Los Angeles, where the shuttle lands).

    Colder than usual at the beach in Marina del Rey, too.

    Meanwhile, CO2 keeps climbing.

  176. Gene Nemetz says:

    It looks like JAXA Arctic ice is back on an expected track :

    http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/en/home/seaice_extent.htm

    I’m wondering if new ice was not recognized by satellite until it was thicker.

    Does anyone have the explanation for the jump today?

  177. DonS says:

    From the “worse than we expected” press comes this article on Lake Superior. Can these numbers be right?
    http://www.physorg.com/news177515344.html

    Oh, by the way, the funding arrives in the last paragraph.

  178. DonS says:

    @Phil Clarke: “flitch, I find (in .06 seconds on Google), is a word commonly used by geologists (Plimer is a geologist and you are not) to describe layers in various deposits. Really, you should avail yourself of the wonderful research opportunities on the web and stop wasting our time on this blog.

  179. Phil Clarke says:

    Richard,

    Lord Monckton is in fact a member of the House of Lords (if we can believe the wiki discussion, which by the way, I suspect was submitted by Lord Monckton)

    No. when I wrote that Christopher Monckton is not, and never has been, a member of the House of Lords I was being 100% accurate. When he wrote that he was a member of that legislature, in a letter to Senators, he told an untruth. There really is no grey area; when he inherited his title in 2006 he acquired the right to be addressed as Lord Monckton, however since the House of Lords Act 1999, hereditary peers do not automatically became members of the House of Lords. As a transition to a democratic House, aristocrats with inherited titles are entitled to stand for election to a reduced number of seats, when one becomes free, which Christopher Monckton did in 2007, however managed to persuade none of his fellow Lords to vote for him.

    As for focussing on the messenger, well if by the message you mean his ‘scientific’ output, then as Lucia and Arthur Smith found, this is largely either made up or else full of errors. If the messenger cannot be relied on to be honest about such basics as the actual IPCC projections, or his membership of Government, then the message becomes largely incredible. If you remember, the context was Smokey’s assertion that the professional climate scientists who run the Realclimate blog were scared of debating the Viscount. Seems to me that it is more the case that anyone who agreed to waste time debating with a figure so prone to fabrication, error and delusion would be guilty of a severe error of judgement.

    Besides, live debates, even when between people of integrity, are a lousy way of establishing scientific principles. The place for this is in the academic literature where proposals can be scrutinised and the balance of supporting evidence weighted up, a processs that takes weeks, not hours. The scientists who run RC have published several hundred studies between them, Monckton claims that his piece on climate sensitivity, published on the APS Physics and Society Forum web page, and the subject of Arthur Smith’s dissection, counts as a peer-reviewed study. The APS president editor disagrees …. ‘The newsletter of the Forum on Physics & Society is not, and never has been, peer-reviewed.’.

    More delusion.

  180. Vincent says:

    Phil Clarke,
    ” As a transition to a democratic House,”

    Democratic house? You’ve got to be kidding right? In my book, a democratic house is one in which the members are voted into their seats by the public. The UK upper house is nothing of the kind. When Blair removed the rights of the hereditory peers to sit, he simply replaced them with his hand picked cronies. We now have the utterly undemocratic spectacle of individuals being enobled into government in order to avoid the inconvenience of an election. I refer most lately to Lord Mandlesson of Hoy, or whatever he calls himself, a government minister who has not even been elected into office.

  181. Phil Clarke says:

    Okay, apologies for the blog-shorthand, howabout “marginally more democratic” House. This is not really germane to my main point.

  182. Robert E. Phelan says:

    Phil Clarke (11:04:32) :
    “No. when I wrote that Christopher Monckton is not, and never has been, a member of the House of Lords I was being 100% accurate. When he wrote that he was a member of that legislature, in a letter to Senators, he told an untruth. ” …

    Well, I’m not above deferring to those who may be more knowledgeable…. so I sent the following e-mail to the Lord Speaker of the House if Lords:

    Madam:

    There has been some controversy here in the United States over a letter written in 2006 by Lord Monckton of Brenchley in which he described himself as “…a member of the Upper House of the United Kingdom legislature…”.

    The justification for such usage appears to have been on the grounds

    “….Lord Monckton has never said he is a sitting member of the House of Lords: he is, however, a member of the Upper House by succession (hence his title), is registered as such on the list of Peers entitled to be elected by his fellow hereditary peers, and, as a member of the House in good standing, is entitled to use its facilities, though not to speak or vote in the Chamber, for it is in this sense alone that the House of Lords Act 1999 removes the right of membership from hereditary Peers….” (from a Wikipedia discussion page).

    I’ve done a limited amount of research but can come to no firm conclusion other than the rules and structures of UK governance are a bit more convoluted than I thought. I thought that the Lord Speaker would probably be in an authoritative position to answer the question. I am actually something of an admirer of Lord Monckton and intend no mischief against him, but I also dislike arguing from a false position (which I may be guilty of having been doing!).

    If you can shed some light on the question I will be grateful and look forward to your reply.

  183. Glenn says:

    Phil Clarke (11:04:32) :

    Richard:
    Lord Monckton is in fact a member of the House of Lords (if we can believe the wiki discussion, which by the way, I suspect was submitted by Lord Monckton)

    “No. when I wrote that Christopher Monckton is not, and never has been, a member of the House of Lords I was being 100% accurate. When he wrote that he was a member of that legislature, in a letter to Senators, he told an untruth. There really is no grey area; when he inherited his title in 2006 he acquired the right to be addressed as Lord Monckton, however since the House of Lords Act 1999, hereditary peers do not automatically became members of the House of Lords.”

    It seems you want to picture Monckton as lying, yet your evidence is superficial. Monckton *claims* to be a member, and provides the argument in favor. This is different from an “untruth”, and there does appear to be a grey area of whether the 1999 Bill and treatment of Lord’s after that with respect to non-voting membership is constitutionally legal.
    Many of the British Lords have taken exception to this Bill, still holding paper that provides them with membership in the House which have not been revoked by the authority under which they were given. There is at least one challenge currently underway:

    http://www.u.tv/NEWS/Peers-legal-challenge-against-House-of-Lords-could-cause-constitutional-crisis/d7638e6c-038b-4cba-831d-1b521b650f5d

  184. Bulldust says:

    The list of House of Lords members is at the UK Parliamentary site:

    http://www.parliament.uk/mpslordsandoffices/mps_and_lords/alphabetical_list_of_members.cfm#M

    Lord Christopher Monckton of Brenchley certainly does not appear in that list. The appointment process can be found here:

    http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/members/lords_appointment.cfm

  185. Roger Knights says:

    He should have just said, “a member of the peerage,” or “not a commoner.”

  186. Phil Clarke says:

    I agree that Monckton’s demonstrable falsehood is a minor issue, I am more interested in the errors and fabrications in his ‘science’ [ see links above - more here. ]. His defenders seem not to want to discuss these ….

  187. Phil Clarke says:

    Many of the British Lords have taken exception to this Bill, still holding paper that provides them with membership in the House which have not been revoked by the authority under which they were given

    Monckton was never made a member, so his membership cannot have been revoked.

  188. beng says:

    Asia’s getting an early start to winter — look at the huge area of snowcover all the way south to the Himalayans:

    http://www.natice.noaa.gov/pub/ims_gif/DATA/cursnow_asiaeurope.gif

    The graphic changes every day.

  189. Glenn says:

    Phil Clarke (00:10:34) :

    Many of the British Lords have taken exception to this Bill, still holding paper that provides them with membership in the House which have not been revoked by the authority under which they were given

    “Monckton was never made a member, so his membership cannot have been revoked.”

    As I understand it, he inherited membership, was “made a member” at that time. From a distance, one would expect that Lords are members of the House of Lords, by definition and purpose. Commoners never “made” Lords, or members of the House.

  190. Gene Nemetz (20:49:08) : “It looks like JAXA Arctic ice is back on an expected track:

    “http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/en/home/seaice_extent.htm

    “I’m wondering if new ice was not recognized by satellite until it was thicker. Does anyone have the explanation for the jump today?”

    It’s not a new ice/old ice issue. Apparently, air has been exchanged between the Arctic and the rest of the Northern Hemisphere, bringing snow and low temperatures to Canada, the US, and some parts of Europe and China. Conversely, warm air displaced from those areas has delayed freeze-up at the pole. A change in wind patterns has stopped this process. Look for higher freeze rates as the Arctic night descends.

  191. Interesting: A cruise ship has “encountered a large ice mass” in the Antarctic during “semi-circumnavigation” of the South Pole.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091117/ap_on_bi_ge/aa_antarctic_cruise_ship

    The ship, a Finnish-made Russian craft, is the Kapitan Khlebnikov, apparently on her last voyage. Delay of up to a week is expected. No major scientific or political importance, just a reminder that Antarctica can rise up and bite you. “Russian news agencies said a BBC camera crew filming a documentary about the Antarctic was also on board.” How jolly.

  192. Tenuc says:

    jorgekafkazar (11:01:57) :
    “Interesting: A cruise ship has “encountered a large ice mass” in the Antarctic during “semi-circumnavigation” of the South Pole.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091117/ap_on_bi_ge/aa_antarctic_cruise_ship

    Thanks for the link. After reading the article I’m getting a bad vibe – old ship – thick floating ice – what happens when the wind starts to blow???

    I hope all get back safely.

  193. Robert E. Phelan says:

    Rereke Whakaaro (17:03:49) :
    Kia Ora Richard,
    Richard (18:40:08) :
    Kia Ora Rereke

    “Kia Ora”? I gather that is not Maori for “hands up, sucker!”? A blessing for a greeting. Whodathunkit?

  194. Robert E. Phelan says:

    Phil Clarke (00:09:35) :
    I agree that Monckton’s demonstrable falsehood is a minor issue, I am more interested in the errors and fabrications in his ’science’ [ see links above - more here. ]. His defenders seem not to want to discuss these ….

    Phil, you were the one who made a big deal out of what may NOT be a “demonstrable falsehood”. I have no idea what Madame Lord Speaker’s reply might be… but what I see from you is “… slowly I turn, step by step, inch by inch…” then you refer us to an NSFC satire as evidence?

    Phil, sorry, you are just a dishonest troll.

  195. Eddie Murphy says:

    Well if my first article didn’t impress you…

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/17/millions-hungry-households-us-report

    11-17-2009: Record Numbers Go Hungry In The U.S. Says Report

    More than a million children regularly go to bed hungry in the US, according to a government report that shows a startling increase in the number of families struggling to put food on the table.

    President Barack Obama, who pledged to eradicate childhood hunger, has described as “unsettling” the agriculture department survey, which says 50 million people in the US – one in six of the population – were unable to afford to buy sufficient food to stay healthy at some point last year, in large part because of escalating unemployment or poorly paid jobs. That is a rise of more than one-third on the year before and the highest number since the survey began in 1995.

    The number of children living in households where there were shortages of food at times rose by nearly one-third to 17 million. The report says that most parents who did not get enough to eat ensured their offspring received sufficient food but that more than 1 million children still suffered outright hunger.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/12/un-investigator-us-neglect-homeless

    11-12-2009: UN investigator accuses US of shameful neglect of homeless

    A United Nations special investigator who was blocked from visiting the US by the Bush administration has accused the American government of pouring billions of dollars into rescuing banks and big business while treating as “invisible” a deepening homeless crisis.

  196. Smokey says:

    Eddie Murphy:

    If people don’t have enough to eat, it is not the fault of other people’s neglect. It is entirely due to their own bad choices in life: click

    Click on the graphs for some interesting information. You will see that there are no truly “poor” people in America [poor meaning destitute, with no adequate source of nourishment]. Every person in this country is entitled to medical care, without any requirement for their ability to pay. The despicable canard that the “poor” [by which in America is meant only those less affluent than others [click on the charts in the link above] are denied food is Leftist propaganda.

    And the UN should butt out. Due specifically to UN corruption, food shipped for the poor in other parts of the world never reached its intended recipients, but was instead sold by — you guessed it — UN personnel. The Oil-For-Food program filled the pockets of UN bureaucrats with $Billions. Kofi Annan was personally involved. And his successor, Ban Ki Moon, continues the same nepotism-based corruption. So please don’t tell us that the UN’s investigator cares a whit about the poor. He was attempting to engage in anti-U.S. propaganda, and was rightly refused entry.

  197. Tim Clark says:

    Eddie Murphy (09:23:13) :
    11-17-2009: Record Numbers Go Hungry In The U.S. Says Report

    President Barack Obama, who pledged to eradicate childhood hunger,

    I can only quote the late LBJ:

    (Great Society speech) It demands an end to poverty and racial injustice, to which we are totally committed in our time.

    How’d that work for you?

  198. Eddie Murphy says:

    Ok, excuse me, but I wonder if you guys have ever traveled the USA extensively? That heritage.org appears a joke to me.

  199. Robert E. Phelan says:

    Devastating riposte, Eddie.

  200. puckencoupe says:

    Could not find a suitable section so I written here, how to become a moderator for your forum, that need for this?

  201. LoonnaSkymn says:

    Will someone let me know how hard to win a Pell Grant?

    Supposedly this is an [url=http://ezinearticles.com/?Easy-Scholarships---How-Anyone-Can-Get-an-Easy-$10,000-Scholarship&id=3321084]easy scholarship.[/url] Has anyone heard anything about it or had any luck with this?

    Thanks!

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