A Fresh Approach to Energy Policy

Originally published March 13th in Spectator Australia

Brian Wawn

Current energy policy in Australia is based on the arguments that greenhouse-gas emissions should be sharply reduced and that, as part of this, renewable energy should replace coal and gas for electricity generation.

Both these arguments should be challenged and a fresh approach taken to Australian energy policy.

Scientists agree that greenhouse-gas emissions contribute to global warming, but are they the major driver of warming?

This issue is hotly contested, with natural climate variations an important issue also to be considered.

Natural variations in warming and cooling are clear from the past few thousand years and are almost certainly still with us today. Although not fully understood, they are probably solar in origin.

For example, there were global warming and cooling periods in Roman times (around 250 BC to 400 AD) and in Medieval times (around 950 to 1250 AD).

In Roman and Medieval times, global temperatures increased (before subsequently falling) as much as they have in our time – a little over 1-degree centigrade.

Following 1300 AD, global temperatures declined overall until the 1800s, but with cycles of increases and decreases superimposed on the trend.

Greenhouse-gas emissions, which only started growing after 1850, are unrelated to these past temperature changes.

Today, it is arguable that natural variations in warming and cooling have a much larger impact on global temperatures than emissions.

If so, reducing emissions will make little difference to global temperatures in the 21st century.

The government’s relentless pursuit of lower emissions is inconsistent with these yet-to-be-resolved issues.

Current energy policy (Net Zero emissions by 2050) entails that we eventually rely entirely on renewable energy – notably wind and solar farms – for electricity.

However, this will require battery support that, for the country as a whole or even one state, will be impossibly expensive.

To illustrate, the large Tesla battery installed in South Australia in 2017 at a cost of $100 million would supply electricity for that state for less than half-an-hour.

On this basis, to supply Australia with electricity solely from batteries for, say, a week would require batteries costing over $500 billion.

This is nearly as much as total federal government expenditure last financial year.

And even a week would be less than that required to cover periods of weak or non-existent wind and solar energy.

Furthermore, wind and solar energy are proving expensive, with electricity prices in Australia for consumers having tripled since 2000, moving from among the lowest in the world to among the highest.

Reasons for this include:

  • The high transmission costs typically associated with renewables.
  • The need to backup renewables with coal or gas plants operating at below capacity and thus with high unit costs.
  • The costs required to maintain frequency stability in the grid.

Renewable energy would be a niche industry, but for federal and state government subsidies of $6-8 billion per year. These subsidies will only increase if renewable energy becomes increasingly important.

It is not a good way forward.

Here is a proposed change in direction.

First, phase out all subsidies for renewable energy over (say) three years. Adopt the principle that the energy industry should operate on a competitive basis, with no particular technology favoured by government.

Second, use the resulting savings to establish two new major research organisations in Australia.

One of these will look into new technology for generating reliable, low-cost electricity (The Electricity Forum). This means technology to compete successfully with coal.

Such technology will not only be valuable in itself, but will also meet much better than renewables the concerns of those worried about fossil fuels.

The other organisation will be devoted to furthering our understanding of climate science (The Climate Forum). This means addressing the question: to what extent should we be concerned by greenhouse-gas emissions?

Both organisations have the potential to become world leaders in their field. This is a much more exciting use of $6-8 billion per year than building ever more wind and solar farms.

Third, remove all impediments to new coal and gas developments in Australia (apart from those arising from the normal planning process).

Fourth, open-up discussion of nuclear power in Australia, possibly through a royal commission on the issue. Should sufficient community agreement on nuclear power be achieved, plan for the first commercial nuclear plant to be developed in the 2030s.

Possible location: the Latrobe Valley in Victoria, which has the skilled staff and transmission infrastructure to support an economically-efficient nuclear power plant.

And which is being decimated by the Labor-induced closure and planned closures of four major coal-fired power plants: Hazelwood (2017), Yallourn (2028) and Loy Yang A and Loy Yang B (early 2030s).

Adoption of these proposals will not end the ‘climate wars’, as they will be strongly opposed by some, including the growing number of organisations and individuals with a strong vested interest in renewable energy.

But the proposals offer Australia the long-term possibility of reliable, low-cost electricity and other forms of energy. And the possibility of hosting two world-leading research organisations in the climate and energy fields.

Current policy does not offer these possibilities.

Brian Wawn is a director of Energy Bureau, a non-profit organisation committed to stimulating discussion in Australia of climate and related-energy issues.

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vuk
March 15, 2023 2:14 pm

British government declared nuclear as a sustainable source of energy. Small Modular Nuclear Reactors are to be given priority, hoping to attract designs from both domestic and international manufacturers with winners “announced rapidly”.
Great British Nuclear is being created as the agency to establish “a secure energy future” in Britain.

Last edited 11 days ago by vuk
Redge
Reply to  vuk
March 15, 2023 10:43 pm

And not before time

David Dibbell
March 15, 2023 2:15 pm

Good points being made here.

But there is something more, that folks seem to ignore about warming and cooling.

For example, there were global warming and cooling periods in Roman times (around 250 BC to 400 AD) and in Medieval times (around 950 to 1250 AD).”

What is being ignored? The fact that the surface temperature (2-meter air temperature) on a whole-planet basis warms and cools about 3.8C every year. The de-seasonalized charts and graphs don’t show this. It matters to the validity of attribution to GHGs. The claimed cause and effect is tiny in comparison to what obviously is happening naturally.

https://climatereanalyzer.org/clim/t2_daily/

Reply to  David Dibbell
March 16, 2023 1:50 pm

“For example, there were global warming and cooling periods in Roman times (around 250 BC to 400 AD) and in Medieval times (around 950 to 1250 AD).”

1 there were no thermometrs back then

  1. you cant measure a global average
Tony_G
Reply to  Steven Mosher
March 17, 2023 8:20 am

there were no thermometrs back then

So if we have no record of any temperatures before ~1850 or so (which you seem to be suggesting), is 1.5% of the holocene really enough to determine any sort of realistic trend? That’s about the same as determining a trend for weekly temperature by recording the temperatures from 7am-9:30am on one day.

A happy little debunker
March 15, 2023 2:44 pm

What our policy masters never consider…

1.

The European Geosciences Union did a deep dive into Australia’s emissions for 2015.

They found that Australia (the continent) absorbed more CO2 than Australia (the land & people) emitted, & by a large margin.

Which means that Australia has not just been carbon neutral, but has actually done some pretty heavy lifting since the start of the industrial revolution in reducing the amount of CO2 worldwide.

2.

Australia has always been a place of climate extremes and whilst many are trying to link that extremism to current notions of climate change – there is scant evidence to support those assertions – the worst Droughts, Floods and Fires have all occurred & been recorded in 19th century.

3.

If Australia grows fruit & veg and exports those fruit & veg for consumption overseas, Australia owns the emissions in growing that fruit and veg,

BUT somehow if Australia exports fossil fuels, it should be further held accountable for how those fossil fuels are consumed overseas?

To highlight the problem examine this simple question…

Does Germany accept responsibility for the CO2 lifetime emissions from every German manufactured car, truck and vehicle sold & exported throughout the world? If not, WHY not?

4.

Cheap renewable energy is an oxymoron.

Renewable energy is not cheap, because it requires A) enormous government subsidies to make it profitable AND B) because of it’s intermittent nature requires near 100% backup with traditional fossil fuel energy sources – meaning that everyone is paying for energy twice over.

Graham
Reply to  A happy little debunker
March 16, 2023 1:01 am

I agree with you 100%.
New Zealand across the ditch has very much the same man made problems .
Our barking mad politicians tell us that our emissions are very high per person mainly because of our agricultural emissions.
What the drongos refuse to accept is that we export food to feed 35 million people around the world.
Why are the so called emissions not exported with the food ?
As I have written before permanent grassland is a carbon sink but that is far to hard for any one to measure so they say . The same applies to plantings around streams and wet lands ,too hard to calculate they say .
This green infested government is encouraging foreign investors to buy up farms and plant them in pine trees.This is called carbon farming which is probably correct when these trees burn in 30 years time . A lot of carbon will be released .
The theory is that our native trees will grow under the pines and one day take over and become a permanent carbon sink.The investors will take the carbon credits as the pines grow and there is absolutely no advantage to New Zealand except the money flowing in for the initial purchase and the planting of the pine trees .
Entire farming districts will be decimated and New Zealand will export a lot less meat and wool to the world with drastic cutbacks in overseas earnings .
Our countries worst enemy could not have thought up such a scheme to wreck a country .

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  Graham
March 16, 2023 5:04 am

“Why are the so called emissions not exported with the food ?”

And the reverse- if a nation imports a lot- it should count the emissions from the production and transportation of those products- so, for example, Massachusetts now claims it has the lowest emissions per capita of any state- because it exported most of its industries- and we import almost everthing from China, yet we blame China for the emissions. Not that I think emissions are a problem but I hate it when my state brags about how saintly we are. Efficient? But we exported all those jobs- the state politicians don’t like to mention that.

Graham
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
March 16, 2023 12:12 pm

You are correct Joseph,
In 12 years China has increased their coal combustion to a lot more than the whole world was using in 2009.
World coal production was steady for ten years up to 2009 at 4.7 billion tonnes .
World coal use has now exceeded 8 billion tonnes with China using 5.3 billion tonnes of that .
All that these dumb politicians are achieving is exporting their jobs to Asia .
They then tell all that they are close to becoming carbon neutral .
What hogwash .
What is the US national Debt?
Just keep pushing it up like many countries are also doing,purchasing goods from Asia and food from other countries which will make and any countries carbon account look good .
I also think that emissions are no problem .
The problem is the dumb crazy solutions that green infected politicians dream up ,completely devoid of any common sense ,and the end result is less exports ,less jobs , and less food being produced in those countries ..

William Howard
Reply to  A happy little debunker
March 16, 2023 6:41 am

Also ignored is the fact that the vast majority of CO 2 in the atmosphere is naturally occurring so the amount that could actually be removed is minuscule and certainly not enough to affect the earth’s temperature or its climate

Rud Istvan
March 15, 2023 2:49 pm

Not from AUS or UK. Did live in Germany for several years, and am fluent in that language both written and spoken, in four of five spoken distinct regional dialects (Schwitzerdeutsch ist also nur eine Halzkrankeit).

Try as I may, I do not understand the self destructive and contradictory policies of those three countries concerning climate change. They aspire for no valid reason to achieve the obviously impossible. And in ruinous time frames. Will not end well.

We already know that voices of reason like this post have NO impact. So I think letting these countries collide with reality in a very hard way is the best forward solution for all. (And in fairness, in the US CA and NY should also collide with the same reality sooner rather than later. Teaches the same lessons closer to my home.)

Krishna Gans
Reply to  Rud Istvan
March 15, 2023 4:02 pm

It’s “Halskrankheit”, and yes, it is 😀
But beeing fluent in the language and some dialects doesn’t lead to undertand the German idiocy, the wish to be always the best showing the world how to do what ever, the wish to represent leadership. It seems to be a mentality, a mindset of a felt minority complex, the felt necessity to show the world who and how good they are.
Btw, I too have problems to understand it and I am native German and live here….and have to wear the lot. 😀

Rud Istvan
Reply to  Krishna Gans
March 15, 2023 7:44 pm

Gruess aus vereulich Bayern.

Nick Stokes
March 15, 2023 3:15 pm

However, this will require battery support that, for the country as a whole or even one state, will be impossibly expensive.”

Well, it would be. That is why no sensible person expects batteries to cover gaps in wind or sun.

Other schemes are being developed – eg Snowy 2.0. If they fall short, then we’ll still be burning some gas in 2050. But a lot less (and at far less cost) than we would have been without renewables.

1saveenergy
Reply to  Nick Stokes
March 15, 2023 3:34 pm

no sensible person expects batteries to cover gaps in wind or sun

But a lot of ill-educated, ill-informed & stupid people do … (politicians, greens & commentators in the MSM ) & most of the general public believe them.

Last edited 11 days ago by 1saveenergy
Nick Stokes
Reply to  1saveenergy
March 15, 2023 3:59 pm

Maybe a few. but not energy planners or the people who invest in batteries.

Ben Vorlich
Reply to  Nick Stokes
March 16, 2023 12:52 am

If you have a storage for renewable system you have to have excess over demand generation by a large amount. This is needed to rapidly recharge drained storage in a few days. In the UK we can have long periods, weeks long, of low wind with short windy periods up to several days in between.
Once you’ve got rid of FF generation you are relying on renewable and storage for the majority of your supply of electricity, nuclear doing the rest.
So not only do you pay for weeks worth of storage you also pay for a few times over capacity to allow for one day’s renewable to provide one weeks storage. Unfortunately UK weather is very changeable meaning windmills standing idle in high wind conditions and wind droughts of weeks.
The wind drought of summer 2022 lasted from start of June to mid September. Look at the charts on Gridwatch to see what happened.
I will concede that having a few times capacity will reduce the amount of storage as “mony a mickle maks a muckle” even for renewables but it’s a foolhardy route

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  Ben Vorlich
March 16, 2023 5:13 am

“If you have a storage for renewable system you have to have excess over demand generation by a large amount.”

Right, here in Woke-achusetts- there is a pumped storange project in the western part of the state that was dependent on a nuclear facility in nearby Vermont which had excess energy during the day. The nuclear facility has been shut down. The pumped storage is still working- somehow- but the climatistas are fighting hard to kill it because they say it damages the Connecticut River- where it gets its water from.

Krishna Gans
Reply to  Nick Stokes
March 15, 2023 4:08 pm

Snowy 2.0 is seemingly dead
Australia’s Biggest Renewable Energy Project, Snowy 2.0, grinds to a halt,
with a stuck bore

Unfortunately a 2,400 ton Tunnel Boring Machine called Florence is quite stuck under a cave-in. According to the ABC she started ten months ago, and is supposed to be digging her way through 15 kilometres (10 miles) of mountain. The stuck bore can’t go forwards, but she can’t go back the way she came in either. The team has installed concrete reinforcing behind Florence as she moved and the concrete reinforcing effectively locks her in. It’s meant to be a one way trip.

Last edited 11 days ago by Krishna Gans
Nick Stokes
Reply to  Krishna Gans
March 15, 2023 4:27 pm

They have run into trouble with just one tunnel. It’s a nuisance, but won’t stop the project.

Bruce Cobb
Reply to  Krishna Gans
March 16, 2023 6:33 am

Snowy is a $10b white elephant, which if it ever did come to fruition (not likely) would cause energy rates to skyrocket, as well as winding up needing enormous subsidies.

Leslie MacMillan
Reply to  Nick Stokes
March 15, 2023 7:05 pm

What’s never clear to me in these storage projects is what do you do if the storage becomes exhausted because the wind and solar drought lasted longer than the once-in-a-decade case? If you are going to be burning “some gas in 2050”, (because storage falls short) are you going to be able to burn enough gas to supply the whole country with electricity even if only once every 3 or 4 years and only for a couple of days at a time? The temptation will be to demolish those rarely used gas plants because they are hardly ever needed and they are a maintenance and staffing expense. And then one day you need every single one that you have now and then some because when wind and solar comes back on it has to fill the reservoirs first.

Will you accept occasional blackouts where the whole country goes dark except for some critical infrastructure (like government computer systems and car-chargers) kept alive with the last few surviving gas plants? Blackouts where you expect the power to come back on eventually (after the reservoirs are filled) but no one can say for sure. You can say that you will have saved a fortune on fuel and will have reduced CO2 emissions a lot but a nation-wide blackout of unpredictable duration will be ruinous to the social fabric. Could be a false economy.

There is something reassuring about a huge pile of coal sitting next to a power plant. The ultimate storage.

Dennis Gerald Sandberg
Reply to  Leslie MacMillan
March 15, 2023 9:53 pm

It’s not complicated. High grid penetration with wind and solar ends up paying for curtailments on moderate temperature sunny and windy days, while at the same time idling convention sources, denying them income. It’s a “double whammy”. Unless those conventional sources are subsidized, they will eventually go away. Battery storage for more than a day is forever too expensive. With two consecutive cold calm winter days load shedding will be inevitable. Any person of average intelligence understands this. Like I said, it’s not complicated, just very political.

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  Dennis Gerald Sandberg
March 16, 2023 5:17 am

“Any person of average intelligence understands this. Like I said, it’s not complicated, just very political.”

It’s time for our democracies to get back to respecting the people of average intelligence- who seem to have the most common sense. Rather than doing a balancing act of all those who contribute to their campaigns.

MarkW
Reply to  Dennis Gerald Sandberg
March 16, 2023 12:14 pm

Battery storage for more than a few minutes is prohibitively expensive.
Even if they wanted to, they could never build enough batteries to last a whole day, much less pay for them.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Leslie MacMillan
March 15, 2023 10:26 pm

There was something of an analogy in Tasmania 2016. The state uses almost entirely hydro, and is connected to the mainland by Basslink. They export power, and had run down the dams while prices were good. But then they got hit with a drought, so imported, but then Basslink failed.

By recommissioning old gas generators and quickly putting in new diesel, and by negotiating with big users to cut back, they got by. It was expensive, but they were never in danger of blackouts.

Redge
Reply to  Nick Stokes
March 15, 2023 10:53 pm

So gas and diesel need to be available to come to the rescue

Is that factored into the cost of all this “free” energy?

Graham
Reply to  Nick Stokes
March 16, 2023 1:06 am

Fossil fuel came to the rescue and won the day Nick

MarkW
Reply to  Leslie MacMillan
March 16, 2023 12:13 pm

Projects like Snowy are good for load leveling only.

michel
Reply to  Nick Stokes
March 16, 2023 2:01 am

But a lot less (and at far less cost) than we would have been without renewables.

You keep saying this, but you have never given any numbers or pointed to a single study which quantifies it.

Your claim is that the fuel savings from installing wind and solar (and the associated storage, backup and over commissioning necessary, and the constraint payments, and the extra transmission) will more than pay for the capital and running costs, so the hybrid system of wind +solar + gas will be less expensive in total cash flow terms over the life of the system than a simple conventionally powered system.

You just keep repeating that wind and sun are free. So what? They are not free to harvest and use.

This is a huge investment being proposed and made, with huge social and economic consequences if it goes wrong.

Produce some evidence. At the moment you are keeping on reciting the mantra based on nothing more than an assertion and blind faith.

I don’t think, from the evidence of countries that have tried to go down this route and have made some progress, that fuel costs avoided more than pay for the installation and running of the renewables. But if you have some numbers, some studies, produce them.

MarkW
Reply to  michel
March 16, 2023 12:21 pm

Nick has been presented with facts that refute this absurd belief, but he sticks to what he wants to believe.

Last edited 10 days ago by MarkW
Nick Stokes
Reply to  michel
March 16, 2023 2:31 pm

“This is a huge investment being proposed and made”

Yes. Businesses with business plans are investing. Governments are backing them, and getting re-elected. It is the naysayers who need to come up with some convincing numbers, that actually add up.

The big one to counter is cost of fuel. Gas wholesale in UK is about £36 per MWh – has been much higher. Allowing for efficiency 0.6, that means it costs £60 per MWh electricity, just for gas. Current UK wholesale price for elec is about £113 per MWh.

The best info on costs is the IEA. From their calculator, for Australia (2020 prices):
comment image

On any count, wind and solar aremuch cheaper. You’ll say, but what about the costs of intermittency? Extra wires? etc. OK, what are they? Actual numbers?

Leslie MacMillan
Reply to  Nick Stokes
March 16, 2023 5:07 pm

Well, Snowy 2.0 is one of the costs of intermittency, Nick. You wouldn’t build it at all if you weren’t trying to make a go of intermittent generation.

The difficulty of costing intermittency is that it depends on how deep the intermittent generators penetrate into the grid, what their capacity factors are, and how many blackouts or demand curtailments you are willing to endure in order to have that amount of fuel-less generation. The capital and labour costs of that backup have to be fully charged to the intermittent sector, not merely socialized across the grid, because those costs would not be incurred but for the intermittent generators. We’ve figured out that batteries are economically unfeasible as long-term (>4 hr) insurance against intermittency. The same approach can be taken for other backups.

On its website, Snowy 2.0 claims that it will allow wind and solar to rise to 60% of Australia”s grid generation without risking blackouts. That provides one approach to arriving at the cost of that increment in intermittency. But the cost of intermittency rises non-linearly as the penetration increases to, say 80%, because that much more of the grid must now be backed up and you have less spare fossil capacity to do it with.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Leslie MacMillan
March 16, 2023 7:12 pm

The difficulty of costing intermittency”

There is a way, in the UK. The capacity auction is at a high level, £60 per KW/year. That would be £600M for 10 GW, which would be very generous backup for wind. But how much does gas fuel cost to generate 10 GW for a year. At £60/MWh from above, that is
60*365*24*10000(MW)= £5000M

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  Nick Stokes
March 16, 2023 5:09 am

I presume that’s a pumped storage project. But, here in Wokachusetts and much of the American northeast, the climatistas HATE pumped storage projects and fight against them. Here, they hate EVERY source of energy- other than heavily subsidized solar on roofs- which they ignorantly think will be sufficient to power all of society- electricity, heat, transportation, industry, etc.

MarkW
Reply to  Nick Stokes
March 16, 2023 12:10 pm

Fascinating how Nick completely ignores the words of his co-conspirators.
The vast majority of them are demanding no gas/coal/oil power. None zero nada.
Beyond that, they have been demanding that dams be torn down world over.

I see Nick is going to stick with the lie that wind and solar actually reduce the amount of fossil fuels that are burned, and that it saves money at the same time.

No lie so refuted that Nick won’t repeat it.

March 15, 2023 4:46 pm

Scientists agree that greenhouse-gas emissions contribute to global warming, but are they the major driver of warming?
This issue is hotly contested, 

not contested! this is why they point to a consensus.

its not contested. its accepted.

Redge
Reply to  Steven Mosher
March 15, 2023 10:56 pm

its not contested. its accepted.

Where is the proof beyond any reasonable doubt that GHG’s are the “major driver of warming”?

Please post a link to the definitive paper because we’d all love to read it.

MarkW
Reply to  Redge
March 16, 2023 12:25 pm

From what I’ve been told, when they take CO2 out of the models, they don’t get any warming.
It has warmed, therefore they have proven that CO2 caused the warming.

Yes, they actually are ignorant enough to believe such nonsense.

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  Steven Mosher
March 16, 2023 5:19 am

“accepted”- and you think that is how science works?

beng135
Reply to  Joseph Zorzin
March 17, 2023 9:59 am

Right. It used to be “accepted” that Earth was the center of the universe.

Last edited 9 days ago by beng135
Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  beng135
March 17, 2023 10:03 am

Ironically, astronomers now say every point is at the center because from any point if you look out everything else beyond your cluster of galaxies is going away from you- but of course not central in the sense of being of central importance

MarkW
Reply to  Steven Mosher
March 16, 2023 12:24 pm

The so called consensus has been refuted time and time again.
Like Nick and his obsession with a belief that wind and solar are saving money, Steven sticks to his faith that everyone who matters agrees with him.

There is not and never has been a consensus.
Beyond that only the permanently juvenile believe that truth is determined by a vote.

March 15, 2023 4:52 pm

First, phase out all subsidies for renewable energy over (say) three years. Adopt the principle that the energy industry should operate on a competitive basis, with no particular technology favoured by government.

look since the end of WWII the USA navy has made shipping safe. subsidising the transport of Oil and coal and other goods through the south china sea.

we may have to start charging for protection. it would be a shame if aussie shipping through the straights of malacca, got more dangerous.



Graham
Reply to  Steven Mosher
March 16, 2023 1:23 am

” Phase out all subsidies on wind and solar over three years ”
That will never happen Mosh because wind and solar are intermittent.
Even you Mosh should be able to see that .
Any company supplying electricity to a power grid should have to guarantee continuous power.
Wind and solar cannot provide that ,so if they had to supply back up gas turbines they could do it BUT your power charges would go through the roof .

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  Steven Mosher
March 16, 2023 5:22 am

“look since the end of WWII the USA navy has made shipping safe. subsidising the transport of Oil and coal and other goods through the south china sea.”

Sure, then lets give that up- America has plenty of all fossil fuels. Let the rest of the world pay for that “protection”. The Europeans have gotten away without that expense- just as they haven’t bothered to maintain their military.

MarkW
Reply to  Steven Mosher
March 16, 2023 12:27 pm

What percentage of world trade does oil/nat gas/coal make up?

simonsays
March 15, 2023 5:01 pm

“, the large Tesla battery installed in South Australia in 2017 at a cost of $100 million would supply electricity for that state for less than half-an-hour.”

Left out it needs to replaced evey 10 years or so, as long as it doesn’t catch fire again before then.

Paul_Rossiter
March 15, 2023 6:56 pm

All very sensible suggestions, but what you have overlooked is the main driver for all the CAGW/Green energy madness: a maniac desire for more authoritarian global control by three main groups. These are the UN using the IPCC CO2 myth as its Trojan Horse, along with the WHO (central pandemic control) and World Bank (denying developing countries cheap reliable energy); the billionaire technological and banking elites pushing their WEF and ESG agendas; and the Marxists pushing a socialist agenda through faux environmental and social justice concerns. All of these use the same set of tools like pushing education to the left, a compliant press, censorship on social media, cancellation of any opposing point of view, and so on.

With all these forces aligned in much the same direction, it is very naive to think that the war will be won or lost through logical argument about the science of climate change or alternative energy. The change will only come when more world leaders (and their advisors) have the balls to take an open-minded view, when more woke business and banks collapse, and when the cost of living causes the general population real pain. The sooner this happens the better.

That is not to say that we should give up on maintaining a critique of the pseudo-science, but let us not kid ourselves that it is all that is needed.

Joseph Zorzin
Reply to  Paul_Rossiter
March 16, 2023 5:24 am

“A VISION FOR AN EQUITABLE AND JUST CLIMATE FUTURE”
https://ajustclimate.org/

Bob
March 15, 2023 7:31 pm

Very nice. Wind and solar are not a viable energy source period. Whether you think CO2 is a problem or not wind and solar are not the answer, they are the problem. Put a halt to all wind and solar now, withdraw wind and solar from the grid in a reasonable way. Invest all the money you would have invested in wind and solar on clean fossil fuel and nuclear.

Jim Karlock
March 15, 2023 10:45 pm

“Greenhouse-gas emissions, which only started growing after 1850, are unrelated to these past temperature changes.
Today, it is arguable that natural variations in warming and cooling have a much larger impact on global temperatures than emissions.”
Here is how I put it:

5000 years ago, there was the Egyptian 1st Unified Kingdom warm period  
4400 years ago, there was the Egyptian old kingdom warm period.
3000 years ago, there was the Minoan Warm period. It was warmer than now WITHOUT fossil fuels.
Then 1000 years later, there was the Roman warm period. It was warmer than now WITHOUT fossil fuels.
Then 1000 years later, there was the Medieval warm period. It was warmer than now WITHOUT fossil fuels.
1000 years later, came our current warm period. 
Climate alarmists are claiming that whatever caused those earlier warm periods suddenly quit causing warm periods, only to be replaced by man’s CO2, perfectly in time for the cycle of warmth every 1000 years to stay on schedule. Not very believable.
 
The entire climate scam crumbles on this one observation because it shows that there is nothing unusual about today’s temperature and thus CO2 is not causing warming or any unusual climate effects that are frequently blamed on warming.
Evidence that those warm periods actually occurred:   
http://www.debunkingclimate.com/climatehistory.html
Evidence that the Roman & Medieval warm periods were global: 
http://www.debunkingclimate.com/warm_periods.html
http://www.debunkingclimate.com/page216.html 

MarkW
Reply to  Jim Karlock
March 16, 2023 12:30 pm

The Roman Warm period was 2000 years ago. The Roman Empire was long gone by 1000 years ago.
1000 years ago was the Medieval Warm period.

Last edited 10 days ago by MarkW
Joseph Zorzin
March 16, 2023 4:54 am

“This issue is hotly contested”

hmmm… but I’d suggest it’s NOT hotly contested- on the one side is most of the media and most politicians and many if not 97% of scientists- I see nothing about any disagreement on the topic in the media I look at- the people contesting this new religious cult are far and few between- mostly here and a few other internet locations

I wish it was hotly contested.

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