The Final Nail in The Coffin Of “Renewable” Energy

By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley

Douglas Pollock will be known to many readers here as a regular and popular speaker at Heartland conferences. After several years researching the effect of unreliables on electricity grids the world over, Douglas has discovered a truly fascinating scientific result.

He had been looking at nations such as Britain, whose government has gone further towards reducing the economy to third-world status by its unhinged nut-zero policies than any other. As a direct result of this fatuity, Britain now suffers the costliest electricity prices in the world.

The manufacturing industries in which we once led the world have died or gone overseas to Communist-led China, India and Russia. Manufacturing now accounts for just 8% of Britain’s already-imploding GDP. The workshop of the world has become its workhouse.

Industries large and small are going to the wall at a record rate, wrecked by the endless hikes in electricity prices whose root cause is the enforced and pointless shuttering of long-amortized and perfectly viable coal-fired power stations that used to produce electricity at only $30 per MWh, and their replacement with wind and solar subsidy farms producing intermittent and unreliable electrical power at anything up to $11,500 per MWh.

What is more, this disastrous industrial and economic collapse has been deliberately precipitated by a once-Conservative “government” that has long abandoned the no-nonsense economic realism and free-market ideals of Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan.

Curiously, though, the crazed infliction of pig-ugly, wildlife-wrecking, landscape-lacerating windmills on the British people is not reducing our electricity-driven CO2 emissions.

More and more windmills and solar panels are industrializing and destroying our formerly green and pleasant land. Yet the fraction of the nation’s electrical power contributed by unreliables stubbornly remains at just below 25%. Douglas Pollock wondered why.

He consulted widely among the ranking experts on grid management, but no one had any idea why grids such as Germany and the UK, whose installed unreliables capacity is so much greater than 25% of total generation, are incapable of getting their mean annual contribution from wind power, in particular, above 25%. True, on some days wind can generate about two-thirds of Britain’s electricity. But on average – a la larga, as they say in the casinos of Puerto Rico – the contribution of wind and solar is stuck at 25% of total grid generation.

So Douglas scratched his head and thought about it. After a good deal of research and a lot more thinking, he discovered what was wrong. It was a subtle but devastating error that none of the whinnying enviro-zomb advocates of unreliables had noticed.

Douglas’ argument is a beautifully simple and simply beautiful instance of the logical application of mathematical principles to derive a crucially-important but unexpected and hitherto wholly overlooked result. Read it slowly and carefully. Admire its elegant and irrefutable simplicity.

Let H be the mean hourly demand met by a given electricity grid, in MWh/h. Let R be the average fraction of nameplate capacity actually generated by renewables – their mean capacity factor. Then the minimum installed nameplate capacity C of renewables that would be required to meet the hourly demand H is equal to H/ R.

It follows that the minimum installed nameplate capacity N < C of renewables required to generate the fraction f of total grid generation actually contributed by renewables – the renewables fraction – is equal to f C, which is also f H / R ex-ante.

Now here comes the magic. The renewables fraction f, of course, reaches its maximum fmax where hourly demand H is equal to N. In that event, N is equal to H ex hypothesi and also to fmax H/ R ex-ante, whereupon H is equal to fmax H/ R.

Since dividing both sides by H shows fmax / R is equal to 1, fmax is necessarily equal to R.

And that’s it. In plain English, the maximum possible fraction of total grid generation contributable by unreliables turns out to be equal to the average fraction of the nameplate capacity of those reliables that is realistically achievable under real-world conditions.

For onshore wind, that capacity factor R is a depressingly low 25%. For offshore wind, one might get 30%. The reason is that a lot of the time the wind is not blowing at all, and some of the time the wind is blowing too much to allow safe rotation of the turbines.

What Douglas Pollock’s brilliant and, at first blush, unexpected result means is that the miserably low capacity factor R is in fact also the fundamental limit fmax on the contribution that unreliable can make to the grid without prohibitively expensive and logistically unachievable large-scale static-battery backup.

That means that wind and solar power cannot contribute more than about a quarter of total electricity demand on the grid, unless there is battery backup. However, as Professor Michaux’ 1000-page paper of 2021 for the Finnish geological survey has established, there are nothing like enough techno-metals to provide battery backup of the entire grid worldwide.

Just for the first 15-year generation of static-battery backup for the global grid, the Professor calculates that one would need the equivalent of 67,000 years total current annual production of vanadium, to name but one of the scarce techno-metals that would be required in prodigious quantities. In another 15 years, another 67,000 years production will be needed, for batteries are short-lived, as anyone with a cell-phone knows to his cost. So battery backup is simply not an option on a global scale, even if it were affordable.

Now consider just how devastating is Douglas Pollock’s brilliant result for the climate-Communist narrative. First, it is simple. Even a zitty teenager in high school can understand it. Secondly, it shows that even if global warming were a problem rather than a net benefit there is absolutely nothing we can realistically do about it, except sit back and enjoy the sunshine. Thirdly, it shows that the climate Communists, in placing all their eggs in the electricity basket, have a basket-case on their hands.

For the imminent, enforced replacement of gasoline-powered autos by electric buggies will not only impose an enormous extra loading on the grid – for which most grids are wholly unprepared – but, since the batteries add 30% to the weight of the typical buggy compared with a real auto, the entire transport sector will be squandering 30% more energy than it does now. And that energy is supposed to come from the already overloaded grid, powered by unreliables that can only deliver a quarter of total grid capacity in any event.

It gets worse. In the UK, the “government”, in its final thrust to destroy the British economy, is ordering every household with a perfectly good oil-fired boiler to tear it out in two years’ time and replace it with a ground-source or air-source heat pump, which will deliver far less heat at far greater cost. And where is the electricity for the heat pumps going to come from? From the grid, that’s where.

The bottom line is that, because vastly more electricity than now would be needed to achieve nut zero, and because the Pollock limit means only about a quarter of grid electricity can be delivered by unreliables, the net effect of attempts at nut zero will be to increase global emissions significantly, because, as Douglas has decisively proven, nut zero – even if it were at all desirable, which it is not – is impossible.

Nut zero, then, is a striking instance of Monckton’s Law, which states that any attempt by governments to interfere in the free market in pursuit of some political objective or another will tend to bring about a result that is precisely the opposite of that which was – however piously – intended.

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vuk
January 11, 2023 2:04 am

York council has been accused of hiding a fleet of 25 new multi-million-pound electric-powered bin wagons because it failed to build facilities to charge them.
York Council has invested around £8m into a procurement project to replace its diesel trucks, used for general litter collection, with more eco-friendly vehicles.

Alexander Vissers
Reply to  vuk
January 11, 2023 2:48 am

There are non polluting diesel engines on the market at lower cost than EV.

Reply to  Alexander Vissers
January 11, 2023 8:53 am

no the government paid to destroy them all. its a plot

MarkW
Reply to  Steven Mosher
January 11, 2023 11:56 am

Was that an attempt at humor? If so, keep your day job.

Reply to  MarkW
January 11, 2023 1:35 pm

His day job is making totally meaningless irrelevant statements. !

Reply to  Steven Mosher
January 11, 2023 5:11 pm

C’mon Mosh, you must have some pragmatism left in you.

Surely you can’t see any practicality in turning to battery powered vehicles when nobody has yet come up with an economical and practical way to generate power for the grid? Or to rebuild said grid to make it useable for the purpose?

If you are worried about CO2 levels, you’d know that more efficient engines (and more efficient power generators for that matter!) will do more to decrease emissions than this idealisitic knee-jerk nonsense.

Reply to  vuk
January 11, 2023 3:53 am

And the excuse?

Inflation.

The procurement officer told the reporter that they invested this money in those vehicles before any charging infrastructure was installed because prices are anticipated to increase, in his/her opinion.

Vehicles of any sort are a depreciating item and a degrading technology from the moment they are purchased. Ideally, they should be used 24/7 to maximise the return on investment over a shorter period and replaced when worn out with newer technology.

Governments justify their existence by how much taxpayers money is spent, not by justifying how little of taxpayers money is spent.

Just like the fiscal duties investment companies have to maximise returns to their customers in the most efficient way possible, governments and local authorities are under the same obligation and should not be concerning themselves with climate issues until the financial imperative is there to do so.

Someone needs to sue York Council, and someone on York Council needs to be sacked, for their irresponsible waste of taxpayers money.

Gregg Eshelman
Reply to  HotScot
January 11, 2023 4:02 am

By the time they get around to building the chargers for the garbage trucks, the batteries will be junk from not being charged.

TBeholder
Reply to  Gregg Eshelman
January 11, 2023 12:23 pm

Then they’ll need to… buy more batteries! One signed paper, 4 deals with separate kickbacks. Is that not “the most efficient way possible”?

Reply to  HotScot
January 11, 2023 8:54 am

yes firing someone will always bring the cash back

Drake
Reply to  Steven Mosher
January 11, 2023 10:43 am

Come on Steve, NOT firing someone will guarantee that that someone is still around to do more damage in the future.

AND that morons will feel free to do stupid stuff without thinking things through (cost/benefit analysis) because there will be no consequences for their incompetence.

You know, like politicians, lawyers and climate “scientists”.

Dave Fair
Reply to  Steven Mosher
January 11, 2023 10:46 am

Clown. It is meant to keep the next feckless bureaucrat from doing the same thing. It is also meant to let the people who pay the bills know that the entity cares more about peoples’ wellbeing than on perpetuating Leftist ideologues’ theft.

Trying to be cute is not an admirable trait in an adult trying to participate in an adult conversation. Your ability to participate has obviously deteriorated over time, Mr. Mosher.

MarkW
Reply to  Dave Fair
January 11, 2023 11:58 am

The problem is that there will always be more feckless bureaucrats. And Steve will continue to support them.

Philip Mulholland
Reply to  Steven Mosher
January 11, 2023 11:30 am

Firing someone?

Pour encourager les autres.

“There is no doubt of it; but in this country it is found good, from time to time, to kill one Admiral to encourage the others.”

Voltaire

MarkW
Reply to  Steven Mosher
January 11, 2023 11:57 am

Did anyone say that firing those repsonsible for this boondoggle would recover the money?
Or are you just desperately trying to change the subject again?

Reply to  Steven Mosher
January 11, 2023 1:06 pm

yes firing someone will always bring the cash back

So, no embezzler should ever be prosecuted unless prosecuting him/her will repay the funds embezzled?

Reply to  Steven Mosher
January 11, 2023 1:37 pm

Continuing to pay people for doing absolutely nothing worthwhile, continues their unnecessary funding.

One wonders how you are still employed. !

John Endicott
Reply to  bnice2000
January 12, 2023 10:05 am

His continued employment explains why he is so against accountability.

John Endicott
Reply to  Steven Mosher
January 12, 2023 10:07 am

firing someone is no more about “bringing the cash back” than jailing a murderer is about “bringing back the dead”. In both cases it’s about holding people accountable for their actions.

Reply to  Steven Mosher
January 13, 2023 2:45 am

Over a lifetime of not paying the moron, his/her salary may represent at least some of the money blown.

bobpjones
Reply to  vuk
January 11, 2023 4:41 am

Didn’t hide them well enough, did they, nice aerial shot of them on the net.

Mr.
January 11, 2023 2:15 am

Speaking of ‘laws’ I’ve always liked Aussie journalist Tim Blair’s law –

“Nothing ‘green’ ever works properly”.

Covers all applications of the lunacy really.

Reply to  Mr.
January 11, 2023 6:24 am

And Thomas Powell said

Much of the social history of the Western world over the past three decades has involved replacing what worked with what sounded good. In area after area – crime, education, housing, race relations – the situation has gotten worse after the bright new theories were put into operation. The amazing thing is that this history of failure and disaster has neither discouraged the social engineers nor discredited them.

applies in spades to green tech…..

abolition man
Reply to  Hysteria
January 11, 2023 8:54 am

I believe that was Thomas Sowell. If he was required reading in high school and college, we would not now be in this fix! Brilliant thinker and economist!

Dave Fair
Reply to  Hysteria
January 11, 2023 10:48 am

I don’t know. Profiteers and deviants seem to be doing rather well in this brave new world.

Hivemind
Reply to  Mr.
January 11, 2023 8:45 pm

Kind of a corollary:
Nothing green is ever intended to work

As an example, plastic bag bans. Not intended to work, simply to show that the greens have the power to inflict it on the peons.

strativarius
January 11, 2023 2:19 am

The attitude of the Parliamentary dictatorship – They Couldn’t Care Less.

Paying 4,900% over the odds to keep the lights on is judged a superior strategy to developing our own gas reserves on land and under the sea making energy at least affordable as well as reliable.

They have some very strange ideas about the working class. The Guardian’s favourite, Jack Monroe, has this advice for the cost of living crisis….

“issuing top tips such as: if you don’t own a tin-opener, how about using a sharp knife and a mallet to open your tinned grub? And: collect the fluff from your tumble dryer and turn it into an ‘extremely efficient firelighter’ for your fireplace. “

https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/01/09/the-last-thing-poor-people-need-is-jack-monroe/

Now who has a mallet and not a tin opener? Show me the council houses and flats with open fireplaces….

The disconnect is ever-widening and we are utter scum who must be herded and told how to live as far as the elites are concerned. Net Zero is their new religion and no elections will change that. Unless you know better?

Dave Andrews
Reply to  strativarius
January 11, 2023 9:11 am

Surely she should have said collect the fluff from your tumble dryer and turn it into firelighter then rip out your tumble dryer and dry your clothes on a line outside in future.

Admin
January 11, 2023 2:29 am

My decision to move back to a warm part of Australia was because it is possible to survive here without home heating. I didn’t want to freeze to death waiting for the sanity to return.

michel
January 11, 2023 2:36 am

In the UK, the “government”, in its final thrust to destroy the British economy, is ordering every household with a perfectly good oil-fired boiler to tear it out in two years’ time and replace it with a ground-source or air-source heat pump, which will deliver far less heat at far greater cost. And where is the electricity for the heat pumps going to come from? From the grid, that’s where.

No, this is wrong. They are not ordering any replacements of perfectly good oil fired boilers. They are ordering that you may not replace an oil fired boiler with same again. This means if you are off the gas grid, as almost all oil fired heating homes will be, replacing with a heat pump.

Which is bad enough. In fact for those subject to this it will be a financial bath for inadequate heating. You have to replace the rads and the pipework, and then you find yourself paying for resistive electric water heating, and for supplementing the heat pump with direct resistive electric heat when its not working well, which is when it gets really cold…!

But its not as bad as Christopher’s account. Or its differently bad.

It will lead to very long life for installed oil boilers, and to a lot of early replacements in 2024. The advice would be, if you have a non-condensing oil boiler made in the last 15 or 20 years, with an efficiency rating in the high eighties, buy another heat exchanger now. This is the part that will run out soonest. With a new heat exchanger on hand there is no reason why you should not be able to get another 20 years out of a decent boiler.

Non condensing, however. Condensing is just another complexity which shortens the life of the boiler in order to get a small increase in efficiency. And under the present regime, long life is the key. So if you have a good quality non-condensing one, its a jewel, and worth going to some trouble to preserve it.

michel
Reply to  michel
January 11, 2023 2:43 am

I see on re-reading that this is not completely clear. They are not ordering anyone to take out and replace their functioning oil fired boiler. Its about replacement The regulation is that if your boiler needs replacement, eg its come to the end of life, there are no longer any spare parts, you may not replace it with another oil fired one.

So you can keep one you have installed for its entire useful life, as long as it will last. Which is why my advice above to buy in a replacement heat exchanger.

Its bad enough. But the head post is mistaken about what the regulation is.

mikelowe2013
Reply to  michel
January 11, 2023 11:02 am

I recommend that we all use the same reasoning for retaining our ICE cars by maintaining them properly to maximise their future life. That’s what I intend to do, and my current 14-year old car will see me out!

Joe Shaw
Reply to  mikelowe2013
January 11, 2023 3:59 pm

Perhaps some of the Cuban mechanics that have been maintaining all the 1950’s era autos on that unfortunate island will be willing to relocate and get into the boiler repair trade.

Reply to  michel
January 11, 2023 6:28 pm

They are ordering that you may not replace an oil fired boiler with same again. This means if you are off the gas grid, as almost all oil fired heating homes will be, replacing with a heat pump.”

Heat pumps do not bolt into place to simply replace an oil fired boiler.

Oil fired boilers heat water for distribution throughout the house, whether to cast iron radiators, finned hot water pipes running along the bottom of walls, or tubing installed in the floor.

Heat pumps heat/cool air that is then pumped through houses via large air ducts.

Replacing an oil fired boiler with a heat pump means retrofitting the house with air duct venting systems. A not inexpensive task, especially if some of the ductwork is to be hidden in walls, ceilings or floors.

We just had two heat pumps fail at the same time, upstairs and downstairs, in a 2,000 square foot house.
Cost to replace each was $15,000, roughly double the cost to install their predecessors 15 and 20 years ago.

That cost is based on air ducts already installed when this house was built circa 1988.
Good luck retrofitting houses for heat pumps if they are much older than mine.

The Real Engineer
Reply to  ATheoK
January 12, 2023 1:38 am

British heat pumps are even worse than that because the output is expected to be hot water not warm air, immediately reducing the COP. British properties rarely have room for air ducts, and the weather is cold in winter. Are heat pumps used for heating in Canada or Alaska? I rather doubt it, because the COP will be too low. The other point is that oil is used in rural locations, which often have relatively small electricity supplies (and single phase only) available. A few heat pumps will take all the capacity, and the whole lot will have to be replaced at great cost. Who will pay for that?

strativarius
Reply to  michel
January 11, 2023 2:43 am

Are you aware that some insurance companies – like Aviva – are refusing to reinsure properties with oil fired central heating?

How did you miss that?

michel
Reply to  strativarius
January 11, 2023 3:04 am

No, I had not heard of that. I know lots of people with oil fired heating, and it has never come up. I’ll check into it.

My point about the nature of the Government regulations stands. The regulations do not require you to replace an oil fired boiler. They just say what you may replace it with, if you decide or need to do that.

strativarius
Reply to  michel
January 11, 2023 3:06 am

Regulations are in constant flux now. They have to be.

Dave Fair
Reply to  strativarius
January 11, 2023 10:59 am

That’s the trouble with socialism: One can’t plan for anything because your masters are constantly dreaming up new regulations to control you. This is the economy you get without the rule of property law.

michel
Reply to  strativarius
January 11, 2023 3:39 am

I have looked and called a couple of friends and found no evidence that insurance companies, including Aviva, are refusing home insurance to oil heated homes. There are commonly exclusions or limits related to tanks and boilers, have been for years as oil tanks in particular have very specific risks, but I have seen no evidence these have changed recently. There are specialist insurance providers that specifically cover risks associated with tanks and oil boilers at moderate expense.

But I have seen no evidence that there are refusals of home insurance because the home in question is oil heated.

I have found one report on Twitter of someone being refused, allegedly because of oil fired heating, but the context and reason was not clear, nor when the policy, if it is one, was started. It wasn’t a well known home insurance company.

If you can provide a source and a link to refusals it would be helpful. I don’t think its happening, on the evidence I have seen.

strativarius
Reply to  michel
January 11, 2023 3:52 am

They don’t publicise it. It occurs at renewal time.

My sister and others in Dorset have had this problem. I doubt they know you.

This from LV insurance

https://www.diynot.com/diy/attachments/59460ffe-4257-426f-9815-cf33b58908bf-png.261017/

https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/building-insurance-refused-oil-central-heating.586855/

michel
Reply to  strativarius
January 11, 2023 5:31 am

https://www.lv.com/home-insurance/what-you-need-to-get-a-home-quote

Yes, I think you are right about Liverpool Victoria, at least on new business – down at the bottom they ask whether you have oil fired, and say that if you already have home or car insurance with them, they will accept oil fired.

So what you say about renewal is different from this, which implies that renewal should be unproblematic, but if your relatives have been refused a renewal on these grounds they must be also refusing renewals.

I wonder how long they have had this policy in effect. It certainly rules them out as a home insurer for anyone living off the gas grid, which I guess is around 2 million homes in the UK. Surprising. I don’t think oil is any more risk than anything else, except for the tank. There are still a lot of single wall tanks out there, which are very expensive if they leak, and the old plastic single skinned ones are splitting now. Sun damage, low grade plastic. So I think an exclusion or addendum about the state of the tank for coverage is quite reasonable.

A blanket refusal not so.

Generally I don’t understand the government position on oil. They are happy to have gas continue heating existing homes for another 12 years, and get replaced with gas when replacement is needed. And this is 85% of homes in the UK.

So why are they so concerned with an accelerated phasing out of oil boilers in a (relatively) small number of homes who have no real, fit for use, alternative?

strativarius
Reply to  michel
January 11, 2023 5:43 am

That’s just a screenshot, but you get the idea.

Insurance is another lever to be used.

Reply to  michel
January 11, 2023 1:43 pm

“Why are they so concerned…” – you could wonder similarly about the whole green agenda and how they are going about forcing it – especially the current push for electrification and resistance (even bans) on gas installations when they are just shooting themselves and their agenda in the foot, as it were. The eco grid is just not there yet, and forcing will just drive up prices, especially on the renewable technologies themselves, and make them more likely to fail, sometimes embarrassingly so, like in the big Texas freeze up, and the big European Calm.

Philip Mulholland
Reply to  michel
January 11, 2023 3:05 am

They are ordering that you may not replace an oil fired boiler with same again. 

And there in a nut shell is the root cause of the problem.
Permission is required.
Remove the diktat and the problem is solved.

michel
Reply to  Philip Mulholland
January 11, 2023 3:44 am

The policy at the moment seems to be:

— no new installs of oil boilers from 2025
— no new build installations of gas boilers from 2030
— no new installs in existing properties of gas boilers from 2035 (heavily qualified with caveats about comparable pricing and running costs for heat pumps, so may not happen).
— no purchases of pure ICE cars after 2030, but hybrid EVs allowed.
— no purchases of hybrids after 2035. It will be all EV after that.

Its sort of obvious that trying to do this at the same time as moving the grid to wind and solar is not going to work…

hiskorr
Reply to  michel
January 11, 2023 6:13 am

Does “no purchases” apply to the used auto market, or only new cars? Who would buy a new ICE in 2029 if its trade-in value drops to zero the next year?

michel
Reply to  hiskorr
January 11, 2023 12:31 pm

As far as I know the used auto market continues as now, and any ICE car registered before the cutoff can continue to be licensed and driven. I’m not an insider, but have not so far heard anything suggesting different.

That said, one can imagine that the tax regime could be shifted to move people to electric. You can also imagine restrictions being imposed on where ICE cars may be driven, or what they will be charged for (eg) entering cities. The London Ultra Low Emission Zone changes are an indicator. Being able to raise money with a tax which can be defended as saving the planet will be an irresistible temptation to councils.

I suspect this kind of thing will anyway be necessary to prevent the probable consequence of the ban on sales. That is, the niche market for EVs will be filled, and everyone else will just remain driving ICE until their cars can no longer be patched together to pass the state annual Ministry of Transport examination. Cars how have a very long life if well maintained, so replacing the installed base with EVs could take a very long time, several decades.

Britain will be like Cuba. A museum of classic cars still on the road.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  michel
January 11, 2023 10:35 am

Most grateful to Michel for his clarification.

Dave Fair
Reply to  michel
January 11, 2023 10:55 am

Expat Cuban mechanical life-extension experts will be in high demand in the Western world. 1952 Chevy, anyone? You will own nothing and kiss your masters’ asses.

Reply to  michel
January 11, 2023 11:42 am

Perhaps relevant here is that they will be banning the renting of homes with oil fired heating. First to new tenants, but in due course even to sitting tenants.

greendragon
Reply to  michel
January 12, 2023 7:37 am

Even that is an incorrect interpretation of the law. I can’t believe how wrong Monkton’s article was. The current plan is that gas or oil boilers won’t be allowed in any new build homes from 2025. These homes can be built to sufficient insulation standards to make heat pumps efficient enough to operate effectively. There is no requirement for existing homes to replace their existing boilers and even if there existing boiler fails they can replace it with another gas or oil boiler.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  greendragon
January 14, 2023 3:31 am

Perhaps greendragon should read the latest nut zero publication from the UK Government.

January 11, 2023 3:11 am

Speaking of coffin nails, have you heard about the reputed “biggest solar project in the world” in northern Australia? That was yesterday. Today its been put into receivership because its two ego tripping green head fat cat meal tickets can’t see eye to eye.

observa
Reply to  Tony
January 11, 2023 6:13 am

Their target market of Singapore runs their grid 95% on gas with a dash of waste burners and solar so they were never going to put their grid at risk with that much fickle solar and a vulnerable undersea cable.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  observa
January 11, 2023 9:24 am

What could possibly go wrong with a 2700 mile undersea cable ?

John Hultquist
Reply to  Tony
January 11, 2023 10:01 am

At Tony – solar project a no go. Go to Jo Nova to read about this.

Reply to  Tony
January 11, 2023 1:45 pm

Links please, share the theatre.

Reply to  PCman999
January 11, 2023 2:32 pm

PC, I think you’ll find it will win a post of its own.

JMarkW
Reply to  PCman999
January 11, 2023 3:48 pm
Hivemind
Reply to  Tony
January 11, 2023 8:55 pm

I think it was more that they couldn’t scam enough government subsidies.

January 11, 2023 3:18 am

Here are some points for simpler people like myself that tie in with the article:
•  If the number of windmills is increased five fold or even ten fold, they will be no help when the wind is not blowing or is blowing too hard.
•  If the windmills are producing their maximum at a time energy use is at its lowest, I doubt we will all wake up and start using this all up or have the batteries to store this.

Reply to  Michael in Dublin
January 11, 2023 10:22 am

Not that it’s practical, but the response to that by the warmmongers like griffy is always “well, batteries”. They figure that since their cellphones can work on batteries, so can the grid.

Ian Bryce
January 11, 2023 3:19 am

Politics is the art of looking for trouble,

finding it, 

whether it exists or not,

diagnosing it incorrectly,

and then applying the wrong remedy.

Source: Sir Ernest John Pickstone Benn

Scissor
Reply to  Ian Bryce
January 11, 2023 6:03 am

Pretty much true, though it’s evolved also into making trouble in addition to looking for it.

Richard Greene
Reply to  Ian Bryce
January 11, 2023 7:33 am

I use the slightly different Groucho Marx version of that quote on the home page of my Election Circus blog:

“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies.” … Groucho Marx

steveastrouk2017
Reply to  Ian Bryce
January 11, 2023 1:21 pm

There’s a certain irony(?) that he was the uncle of Antony Wedgwood Benn, one of the more bonkers UK labour MPs, and promulgator of much wrongness

January 11, 2023 3:24 am

Final nail in the coffin…

You can slam those nails in all you like, brothers and sisters, it ain’t gonna help. This Green monster was a zombie, an undead demon, from the start.

Scissor
Reply to  cilo
January 11, 2023 6:05 am

Metaphorically, we need to jam a silver cross into its heart.

Reply to  Scissor
January 11, 2023 1:42 pm

They would say.. “thanks for the donation”

January 11, 2023 3:24 am

The politicians need to explain why the UK is allowing hordes of people into their country despite the dismal and declining economy. Perhaps they need to put these economic migrants to work in their new coal mines and see how quickly they disappear without the freebies. 😉

Reply to  Michael in Dublin
January 11, 2023 5:25 am

and what are they doing, where are they going.
I ask because barely 2 miles from my front door is a 200 acre apple-tree orchard. I pass and see it from the main road as I come and go.

It appears that, this year, no-one has harvested the fruit.
Depending on variety I suppose but about half the trees are fully laden with fruit and the other half are sitting in carpets of fallen fruit.
There are red ones, yellow ones, green ones, the whole variety of cookers and eaters
How may tonnes of stuff will be there? Thousands and thousands.
Because it is The Migrants who would have done that job, picking fruit and vegetables is a job that’s a million miles a below the likes & aspirations of a country full of graduates from the school of Meedja Studdies ##

While if you visit The Nearest Tesco Supermarket, most of the apples in there came from France. I did, I made a special trip to see.

## Yet The Meedja is chock full of stories telling folks to ‘eat fruit and veg-ables
They are patently not, either or the advice is crap.

While we’re here on the subject of coffins –
BBC Headline:”Excess deaths in 2022 among worst in 50 years
There I would assert:” Is where ‘climate change’ is actually killing people. Folks are now so stressed, worried and anxious they are using so much Comfort Food and other ‘comforts’ that the are eating/drinking/gambling/poisoning themselves into early graves.

The Climate ain’t killing people, the fear of it actually is – the folks promoting that really do have, increasing amounts of, blood on their hands.

Not least as the UK health service is effectively now in total meltdown

Not just the UK either:
More BBC:France’s health system under pressure of increasing demands
No, things are not = never better.
They are now = ‘bad’ and getting exponentially worse day-by-day, as reported here at wuwt

Reply to  Peta of Newark
January 11, 2023 6:33 am

Give all able bodied unemployed hard manual labour to support themselves – they can do evening studies for jobs they prefer – and these will no longer be crying for the nanny state to feed them and change their nappies (diapers). The lazy illegals will then look for an easier country and genuine refugees appreciate a first step up the ladder.

Reply to  Peta of Newark
January 11, 2023 1:50 pm

I guess you think the huge medical/ gene therapy experiment of the last couple of years had nothing to do with that?

Thalidomide, anyone?

Reply to  Peta of Newark
January 11, 2023 6:56 pm

2 miles from my front door is a 200 acre apple-tree orchard.”

Ask who owns the property, then ask if you can pick some of the fruit before it goes to waste.

Fallen apples here in the states are frequently used for making apple cider.

A small factory near where I grew up bought an apple orchard for their facility. They left most of the apple trees in place which continued to flower and fruit for many years.
My father got permission and every autumn, we’d visit the orchard, thank the manager and head home with burlap bags of tree ripened apples for the winter.

Tree ripened fruit beats ethylene ripened fruit each and every day!

Richard Greene
Reply to  Michael in Dublin
January 11, 2023 7:36 am

US too, across the Mexico border.
Democrats see them as recipients of government aid (dependents) and eventually sure votes for Democrats. If the interlopers were believed to vote for Republicans someday, the border would be protected by a 25 foot tall wall and machine guns.

January 11, 2023 3:26 am

Nut-Zero ——– It – Will – Never – Happen.

Richard Greene
Reply to  SteveG
January 11, 2023 7:39 am

Nut Zero is happening, unfortunately. But it will never succeed. Because 7 billion of 8 billion people live in nations that could not care less about Nut Zero.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  Richard Greene
January 11, 2023 9:38 am

Richard please have a word with Nigel Topping, UKs ‘high level champion’ (no less) for COP 26 in Glasgow.

He has recently said that “you can argue quite strongly that the whole world could get to net zero in the early 2040s and in many sectors in the late 2030s”

Either he’s delusional or living on a different planet to us.

Jackdaw
Reply to  SteveG
January 11, 2023 9:21 am

You may be right, but how much damage will be inflicted, and at what cost, before the whackadoodles in government realise it won’t work.

Reply to  Jackdaw
January 12, 2023 4:51 am

That’s the question.

January 11, 2023 3:28 am

the maximum possible fraction of total grid generation contributable by unreliables turns out to be equal to the average fraction of the nameplate capacity of those reliables that is realistically achievable under real-world conditions.

OK. That doesn’t need defining 10 variables and naming them with a letter. Real-world conditions change from one place to another. The UK is particularly badly suited for solar. Not many good places for hydro too. Very good for tides, but we don’t know how to extract energy from tides that makes economic sense.

Richard Greene
Reply to  Javier Vinós
January 11, 2023 7:41 am

The electric grids used to work properly
They were not broken. So, they did not need to be “fixed”, especially in a way that makes them less reliable, with the project led by politicians and bureaucrats who are not engineers. Only fools do that.

Reply to  Javier Vinós
January 11, 2023 10:00 am

Thank you. I don’t consider myself to be stupid, but I find his nomenclature and this derivation confusing. Not saying he’s wrong, but it’s like watching a Three-card Monte operator at work.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
January 11, 2023 10:39 am

Try getting a high-school student to explain the equations to you. They are really not that difficult to understand.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 11, 2023 11:03 am

‘So Douglas scratched his head and thought about it. After a good deal of research and a lot more thinking, he discovered what was wrong.’

Sir, with all due respect, it clearly didn’t occur to Douglas that quickly, either. So, in the interest of harmony, since we’re both skeptical of ‘net-zero’, how about a numerical example for a typical grid, say,

24 GW peak load,
16 GW average load, and
25% average renewable utilization

Is it 6 GW or 4 GW?

And are the answers different for wind and solar, since the latter doesn’t work at night?

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
January 12, 2023 5:24 am

Frank from NoVA is perhaps unfamiliar with the process of scientific research. It may take a researcher some time to develop a new result, but he then expresses that result in the form of equations so that other mathematicians can instantly understand the argument and test it for rigor. The hard part is thinking up the concept. The easy part, for those who did not think up the concept but wish to understand it, is to work slowly through the equations (which, in the present instance, are simple) and then think about them.

As to the question about a particular sample grid, it is the right question in the wrong place. Douglas Pollock has established that there is a fundamental limit on the fraction of total grid output that is represented by non-dispatchable generating species, such as wind and solar. That limit is equal their capacity factor (also sometimes known as the load factor). If one were to add more unreliables to the grid, one would be wasting surplus electricity.

Calculation of the capacity factor must be performed with some care for a particular grid. In the UK, Professor Gordon Hughes of Edinburgh University is the ranking expert. He reckons it is about 24% of nameplate capacity for onshore wind in the UK, and perhaps 30-35% for offshore wind.

In practice, then, installing significantly more unreliables capacity than the Pollock limit will be wasteful, and the more that limit is exceeded the more wasteful the outcome.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 12, 2023 8:39 am

Sir,

I’ll ignore the ad-hom and go right to your erroneous conclusion that Douglas Pollock’s ‘fundamental limit’ and his / your ‘mathematical proof’ tells us anything we didn’t already know about renewable energy production or the production of any other economic good.

Let’s start with the premise that energy produced from intermittent sources (renewable e.g., wind and solar) is an inferior good compared to energy that can be produced on demand (most conventional sources). This means we might both agree that whatever prevailing utilization factor exists for these intermittent sources has to be a ‘maximum’ given any particular set of market conditions.

Now we can look at two cases (A and B), representing the unhampered (free) market and the hampered (government constrained) market, respectively:

Case A: Unhampered Market

We assume that end users are free to purchase and consume as much energy as they desire based on the availability and price of energy offered by all potential suppliers, whose prices presumably reflect all costs (capital and variable) faced by the suppliers.

In this case, every source of energy will clear the market, except those not accepted by end-users, and their respective utilization factors. f_i, will simply reflect the amount of energy dispatched by unit i, E_i, divided by its nameplate capacity, N_i. Note, there is no mathematical ‘magic’ here, as f_i is strictly a reflection of market preferences.

Within this case we can look at sensitivities. If fuel prices increase or decrease, the utilization factors of conventional and renewable units will probably change, along with the total amount of energy consumed. Again, there is no fundamental limit here, just a working market.

Similarly, since it’s a working market, additions or subtractions of nameplate capacity by suppliers will be made in accordance with unit economics, hence respective utilization factors are always subject to change.

Case B: Hampered Market

We have the same assumptions as in Case A, except the government has put its foot of the scale in order to promote the use of renewables, whether by subsidy, must take provisions, favorable dispatch rules, etc. A priori, we may agree that this is an economically sub-optimal case that subverts the desires of end-users in favor of the desires of political operatives and renewable suppliers.

In this case, since we are clearing supply and demand in a hampered market, we can expect that the utilization factors for renewable energy will be higher than previously, not only because of the government’s actions, but also because less energy will be demanded by end-users.

Again, there’s no new mathematically provable / derivable ‘fundamental limit’ at work here, just basic economics, which you’ve already alluded to in your acknowledgement that variable conditions among different countries (e.g., sun light and wind speed) will favor different renewable utilization factors.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
January 13, 2023 10:55 am

There was no ad-hom. And the Pollock limit is proven. Just work through the equations.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 13, 2023 2:57 pm

‘Try getting a high-school student to explain the equations to you. They are really not that difficult to understand.’ is an ad-hom attack.

‘Just work through the equations.’

I have. Here’s my work, using the nomenclature and definitions from the article:

H [=] mean system generation,
R [=] average renewable capacity factor,
f [=] renewable generation / total generation,
N [=] min renewable nameplate capacity to meet renewable generation, and finally,

f_max [=] f given H=N, which must equal (renewable generation / total generation) given H=N, or substituting from above,

f_max = (N*R) / (N) = R

My arithmetic is much more parsimonious that Pollock’s ‘linear algebra’, since it doesn’t bother with the handwaving steps of first grossing up H to get C and then scaling it back down to get N.

So is f+max really equal to R? No, for (at least) two reasons:

First, R is an average capacity tor renewable generation (wind and solar), so it is calculated over a wide range of conditions – day / night / windy / calm / clear sky / cloudy sky / high load / low load, etc. But Pollock applies it to a very specific situation, i.e., when H = N, where obviously he has no idea what the actual output of the renewable units will be.

Second, as f can range anywhere between 0 an 1, and probably does so frequently under varying conditions, it is specious for Pollock to assume that f_max occurs precisely when N = H.

In short, Pollock’s ‘limit’ is a misleading use of arithmetic, based on sloppy definitions that apply averages to specific situations. In short, it is a futile attempt to determine an optimal generation mix that in reality can only be solved by letting energy markets work in a free manner.

I’m sure you’ll let us know if / when Pollock’s paper passes ‘peer review’. However, even if it does, I would advise caution to anyone trying to argue his result in front of any competent utility commission – the intervenors representing the wind and solar interests will blow it out of the water.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Javier Vinós
January 11, 2023 10:39 am

Mr Vinos is perhaps unfamiliar with the scientific method. It is necessary to prove a counter-intuitive result, and the usual way to do that – like it or not – is with equations. That is what Douglas Pollock has done. If Mr Vinos disagrees with the equations, perhaps he would be kind enough to state in what respect they are in error.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 11, 2023 1:55 pm

Dr. Vinós is quite familiar with the scientific method being a scientist for several decades with well-cited publications, thank you.

I just don’t think Mr. Pollock has discovered something so novel. Obscuring what he says through elemental mathematics with lots of variables does not change that. It has been known for decades that the more renewable energy is added to the grid the less it gets to be used and the more unstable the grid becomes. It is known as the penetration problem, the higher the penetration the lower the value of renewable energy to the system.

But in Spain, the share of electricity from renewable sources is 40%.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/419432/spain-share-of-electricity-from-renewable-sources/
So if the UK only gets 25 % that is a specific UK problem, as no amount of mathematics says that renewable sources can only provide 25 %.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Javier Vinós
January 12, 2023 5:29 am

Since Dr Vinos is familiar with the scientific method, he will understand that naming variables and arranging them in equations is the vocabulary and syntax of science, and he should complain that a scientific result that he did not himself attain ought not to have been reached by the scientific method. Like it or not, the scientific method is well established and has merit.

What Mr Pollock has done is provide a simple and elegant benchmark that instantly identifies the point at which the installation of additional renewables adds to the cost of electricity without appreciably reducing grid emissions. There is no need to be jealous about it.

And if Dr Vinos will get someone to read the head posting to him, he will see that the capacity factors for wind power in the UK were stated to be exactly that – the capacity factors for the UK. The head posting neither stated nor implied that those capacity factors would apply in countries with more or steadier wind than the UK.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 12, 2023 11:07 pm

People like to make their own definitions to suit their needs, and it seems Lord Monckton is making his own definition. Because it looks to me that any definition of the scientific method should include the work of Charles Darwin, who forever changed our view of the place that humanity occupies in the natural order. Yet from my reading of “On the origin of species by means of natural selection” I don’t remember any variable definition and mathematical formulation.

Lord Monckton would be foolish in declaring Darwin’s work as not following the scientific method for not using mathematics, as mathematics is just a language and tool that can be used by the scientific method or not. The scientific method is based on observation followed by the elaboration of conclusions or principia, on hypothesis, that must hold true over data not available for their elaboration.

Just adding variables and mathematics to something doesn’t make it more “scientific.”

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Javier Vinós
January 13, 2023 10:53 am

Here’s why one needs to use mathematics whee mathematics is appropriate, as of course it is here. Dr Vinos says the renewables capacity factor in Spain is 40%. However, Douglas Pollock looked up the data and found that that includes hydro-power. Deduct the hydro-power and you get a rather lower capacity factor.

In any event, capacity factors vary not only by renewable species but also by nation. for obvious reasons.

But Douglas’ result shows why it is that above a certain point – the Pollock limit – adding renewables to the grid is pointless, wasteful, expensive and destabilizing.

Douglas has consulted very widely in the industry, and, until he came upon his result, one of the commonest questions people were asking was why adding more wind and solar was somehow not increasing the fraction of total grid output that they contributed. Well, now we know why, and it would have been very difficult to come to that result without using mathematics.

SAMURAI
January 11, 2023 3:32 am

Yes, Lord Monckton-san, so sad, but true about the Immutable Law of Leftist Irony…

I did a bar napkin calculation on how much JUST THE HARDWARE would cost to have a 100% solar grid with just a one-week battery backup and came up the following:

Cost of installed home solar system/average home: $30,000/home
Cost of installed 1-week Tesla PowerWall battery backup:$40,000/home
Lifespan of hardware: 15 years
Number of US households: 131.2 million
Residential percentage of total US power consumption: 16%

($70,000*131.2 million)/.16= $57 trillion every 15 years=** $382.3 trillion/century…

**Doesn’t include labor costs to run and maintain a solar grid, or the land it would occupy, or all the other electrical grid infrastructure costs…it is just the cost of solar panels and batteries.

If one assumes EVs will eventually replace all ICE modes of transportation, add around 30% to the above.

This is obviously economically impossible, moreover, there aren’t enough techno-metals to manufacture the required batterie to backup the solar grid.

Leftists are insane.

What governments should be doing is developing Thorium MSRs, which are capable of producing power 24/7/365 at an estimated energy cost of $0.03/kWh.

The Chinese are currently running tests on a prototype Thorium MSR, and expect to have a working commercial design by 2030.

Since there are no cooling towers (no water required), and no containment dome required (runs at 1 atmosphere of pressure), they’re very small and relatively cheap to build.

Thorium is also very abundant all around the world and cheap ($100/kg) and just 200 grams of the stuff is enough to provide a lifetime of energy per person.

Reply to  SAMURAI
January 11, 2023 5:03 am

As yet their are no deployable designs for thorium based reactors, and there are a number of technical problems that remain unresolved.

rxc6422
Reply to  It doesnot add up
January 11, 2023 5:16 am

Actually, thorium fuel was demonstrated to breed in the Shipping port plant, back in the 1970s.

SAMURAI
Reply to  rxc6422
January 11, 2023 6:03 am

Yes a proof of concept MSR was built and tested at Oak Ridge Labs In the 70’s, but Nixon killed the Thorium MSR development because we were at the height of the Cold War, and LWRs were much better at producing plutonium for nuclear bombs,

SAMURAI
Reply to  It doesnot add up
January 11, 2023 5:48 am

I realize there are currently no commercial LFTRs, and in the US, there never will be until politicians and bureaucrats pass laws and regulations for test parameters and approval procedures to allow the private sector to invest in their development..

I’ve been in contact with Senator Rand Paul’s officd, and he and his staff are working on getting this done, but no real progress has been made so far..

A lot of lobbyists, Leftists and large companies never want LFTRs developed…

Drake
Reply to  SAMURAI
January 11, 2023 11:12 am

You know, after they build out the infrastructure for the off shore wind, in places like Virginia, a businessman could build barge mounted LFTR’s in some country that will allow it, for example Cuba, awaiting the day that the offshore wind is due for replacement. Then drag the reactor to an area near the cables running to shore and plug it in to the grid.

The free market at work, without the meddling of large government interference.

BUT we all know that anyone wanting to build these reactors want to be subsidized by big governments.

Look at Musk, almost every penny of his net worth can be traced directly to the tax subsidies and cash for CAFE standards paid to Tesla from ICE manufacturers to reduce their overall MGP.

Reply to  Drake
January 11, 2023 3:02 pm

Which will need replacing first, off shore wind turbines or the high power cables connecting them across significantly long undersea distances?

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  SAMURAI
January 11, 2023 11:15 am

Thorium is like fusion – lots of research, lots of promises, but a commercial, working, reliable, affordable thorium reactor, like a commercial, working, reliable, affordable fusion reactor, was 30 years away when I was 30 and is 70 years away now that I am 29.

Reply to  SAMURAI
January 14, 2023 11:12 pm

MSR technology via Bill Gates’ first commercial operation is supposedly to debut prior to 2030. I hope so.
 Accelerated testing methods of the corrosion resistant materials required will have to satisfy regulators and investors. Such testing over a 5 or more likely 10-year period seems necessary to find the “best” materials but the “best” materials need to last 40+ years to be commercial. I see comments about “cladding” for MSR corrosion resistance, but I suspect there’s patent protection issues that will discourage cooperation and extend timeframes.

The best hope (only hope?) we have for phasing in nuclear technology from 2030-2040 is NuScale’s small scale modular reactors, while molten salt fast neutron reactors are being perfected IMHO. I’m not by any stretch an expert, just a seriously interested old man who wants to see the beginning of the new generation nuclear renaissance before I kick off!
copy
TerraPower will run tests with depleted uranium, which is not used in fission, to determine which materials can hold molten salt without being damaged by corrosion
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333245378_Status_of_Metallic_Structural_Materials_for_Molten_Salt_Reactors
2018:
Hastelloy N has not been qualified for use in nuclear construction, and significant additional characterization would be required for Code qualification. …
… It is recommended that a systematic development program be initiated to develop new nickel alloys that contain a fine, stable dispersion of intermetallic particles to trap helium at the interface between the matrix and particle, and with increased solid-solution strengthening from addition of refractory elements.
With support from computational materials science tools, a speculative time frame for a down-selection program, using 20-30 kg heats, is about four to five years….

Stephen Philbrick
Reply to  Dennis Gerald Sandberg
January 16, 2023 12:08 pm

I recently listened to a podcast of Steven Levitt’s interview of Nathan Myhrvoid in which TerraPower came up. Sounded very intriguing.

Stephen Philbrick
Reply to  Stephen Philbrick
January 16, 2023 12:13 pm

Myhrvold, not Myhrvoid

bobpjones
Reply to  SAMURAI
January 11, 2023 5:30 am

The ecoloons, would even object to a Thorium reactor.

SAMURAI
Reply to  bobpjones
January 11, 2023 5:55 am

Yes, Thorium MSRs are hated by the eco-wackos and would drive them utterly insane if the US ever started building them, which is just a bonus aspect for LFTRs.

Richard Greene
Reply to  SAMURAI
January 11, 2023 7:45 am

Add office buildings retail stores, mines, factories etc.
Just $382 trillion?
That’s mo big deal !
I’ll contribute $1
If everyone contributes $1, that will help
The rich folks should contribute at least $2 each

Dave Andrews
Reply to  SAMURAI
January 11, 2023 9:47 am

Aiko Toyoda head of Toyota has said in the past that

“Japan (for one) would run out of electricity in the summer if all cars were running on electric power”

https://climatechangedispatch.com/toyota-warns-were-nowhere-near-ready-to-jettison-gas-powered-vehicles/

Reply to  SAMURAI
January 11, 2023 1:56 pm

And piles of Thorium are already building up as waste from rare earth mining – there’s literally decades of reserves built up and accelerating.

Gary Pearse
Reply to  SAMURAI
January 11, 2023 2:03 pm

Canada’s Chalk River, Ontario operated such a research reactor from 1947 to ~1990. It could even gobble up standard uranium fission waste. Chalk River collaborated with Oak Ridge US in their thorium reactor built in the early 1950s which was ordered shut down 10yrs later because it didnt make radionuclides suitable for weaponry!

Canada has just had its first small modular reactor (SMR) licenced for use.

https://www.aecl.ca/small-modular-reactor-project-at-the-chalk-river-laboratories-moves-to-formal-licence-review-with-cnsc/

Did you know Canada’s heavy water Candu Reactor uses unenriched U238? It synergistically captures stray neutrons causing partial fission of the U238. It is modular (doesn’t need the environmental proctology of new plants), it is installed in 3 years with no cost overruns. The world’s largest nuclear plant at Bruce Point, Ontario is made up of 7 modules.

The plants operates flawlessly for 27 years, followed by a planned upgrade for an extension to 40yrs full life. There’s more! The latest upgrades produce power for 2½ cents US a kWh and it is the only reactor that does not have to be shut down to refuel!!

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Gary Pearse
January 12, 2023 5:32 am

Gary Pearse is right about the Candu reactor. When I was writing my thesis for my postgraduate course in journalism, I took the question of what nuclear reactors would be best, reviewed all the then options and concluded that Candu was the best by a country mile.

Stephen Philbrick
Reply to  Gary Pearse
January 16, 2023 12:12 pm

That sounds very much like the concept discussed by Nathan Myhrvold when he was interviewed by Steven Levitt.

Reply to  SAMURAI
January 14, 2023 10:41 pm

Leftist’s truly are insane, “willfully uninformed”, or corrupt. The cause of their behavior doesn’t matter, the effect is the same. W&S beyond the Pollock limit yields economic destruction, It’s not complicated. It has to stop. Yes, fast neutron breeder reactors aren’t the best long term energy source, they’re the only long term economic and environmental solution IMHO.

January 11, 2023 3:36 am

Having done many of these calculations for different systems in different locations around the world, mainly at hourly resolution, and often covering multi year periods, I have come to the conclusion that the best renewables can manage before costs start escalating alarmingly is about 60-65% of annual demand. That’s about the point where interseasonal storage is needed to keep things balanced. Of course, by then the cost has already escalated significantly, and you still need essentially 100% of peak demand as dispatchable backup capacity.

Here’s one of the simpler analyses which us easier to follow because most of the analysis is at the monthly level.

https://euanmearns.com/wind-and-solar-on-thursday-island/

Reply to  It doesnot add up
January 11, 2023 6:42 am

Here are some more back-of-the-envelope calculations:https://naptownnumbers.substack.com/p/battery-grid-backup

Fig 7.png
Reply to  Joe Born
January 14, 2023 11:18 pm

Now do the calculation for 2023 grid scale packets installed and commissioned. $500 kW.h

Reply to  Dennis Gerald Sandberg
January 15, 2023 4:08 am

That pushes the optimal overbuild much higher, and likewise the system cost.

Reply to  It doesnot add up
January 15, 2023 5:15 am

Exactly.

michel
Reply to  It doesnot add up
January 11, 2023 6:54 am

Very nice.

chadb
Reply to  It doesnot add up
January 11, 2023 9:34 am

If you add interseasonal storage the cost does explode. However, if you overbuild and allow curtailment during over-producing seasons you end up with a much more reasonable cost. However, it is grid dependent.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  chadb
January 11, 2023 11:23 am

Nonsense. The Pollock limit means that all electricity generated during over-producing seasons by renewables exceeding the limit will be wasted. There is no, repeat no, justification for installing more wind or solar power than the relevant Pollock limits for the nation concerned. Exactly the same electricity would be generated, and at far less cost, if the wind or solar arrays exceeding the limit had not been installed at all.

Installing unreliables in excess of the Pollock limit would be justifiable only if one could store the power in static batteries or in the form of “green” hydrogen. Both of these options, however, are cripplingly costly and, therefore, make no sense at all.

Reply to  chadb
January 11, 2023 11:47 am

Please read my write-up on Thursday Island, where I show the trade off between storage and surplus renewables generation for both wind and solar.

chadb
Reply to  It doesnot add up
January 11, 2023 1:45 pm

Very nice article. It would be nice if you had the intramonth data (or even better the hourly data) to run through. I have seen the same thing in every grid I have looked at. Somewhere between 20-80% of generation is pretty easy to fill with wind/solar depending on the grid, but then cost explodes. Florida is on the 20% side (terrible wind) while ERCOT is on the 80% side. It looks like that summer dip in wind would push Thursday Island towards ~50%. I would suspect that Thursday island would be well served with a 6 hour battery, 3MW of wind (one large modern turbine), and 5 MW of solar. However, without the hourly data (like in Joe Born’s post below) it would be difficult to put that guess to the test.

Reply to  chadb
January 11, 2023 3:14 pm

The hourly data would result in marginally worse performance than I was able to identify. The difficulty for wind is the doldrums months in mid summer – when solar is not at its peak either. That really dominates when you are looking at an all renewables solution. I think I established a fairly clear basis for the solar using the daily data from the period of Dunkelflaute , plus an assumption about need overnight and in the hours of minimal solar generation. Again, detailed data at the hourly level is only likely to make the answer marginally worse. I did try running the solar plus wind optimisation, but it came out 100% solar because of those doldrums. If you have to have the solar there is no point in adding wind to it.

I have run experiments comparing results calculated from hourly data, and then summarising the hourly input data to daily data and calculating at the lower resolution. The hourly fluctuations do produce marginally bigger extremes, but they are ripples on the surface when looking at storage issues.

You can see some of the results from my hourly calculations in charts I linked in my reply to Lord Monckton.

Drake
Reply to  chadb
January 11, 2023 12:52 pm

Nothing about unreliable redundant electricity generation is REASONABLE.

There is NO REASON to build unreliable generation since it must be backed 100% by a redundant “energy” supply and/or very expensive storage, none of which was needed BEFORE unreliables were added to the grid. AND unreliables require expansion at a high cost of the interconnecting transmission lines for NO GAIN.

Reply to  chadb
January 11, 2023 3:05 pm

Reasonable as in making your plumbing of pure gold so that it doesn’t corrode over time and have to be replaced.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  It doesnot add up
January 11, 2023 11:19 am

The advantage of formal proof by linear algebra rather than “back-of-the-envelope calculations” is that it is definitive. In sunnier nations, the Pollock limit on the fraction of total grid generation contributable by solar power will be greater than in Scotland, which seldom sees that big yellow thing in the sky. In most Western countries, however, the Pollock limit is low enough to ensure that, regardless of how many solar panels you cover your once-productive fields with, the contribution to total grid generation will be small.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 11, 2023 2:50 pm

My work deals in very formal proof, by taking actual demand hour by hour, and actual wind and solar generation ditto, and then calculating what capacity can be absorbed without generating a surplus, what combination of wind and solar produces the least requirement for storage given a particular round trip efficiency, etc. using linear algebra.

Formally, let G be a matrix of hourly generation capacity factors (derived from actual hourly production by dividing by the nominal capacity) with a column for wind and a column for solar. Let D be a vector of hourly demand. Let C be a 2×1 vector of nominal capacities to be found subject to the constraints we impose on the problem.

We can write that the vector of hourly surpluses and deficits S is

S = C.G – D

If we require that S be strictly <=0 for every hour we have a locus of solutions for C giving the maximum combinations that are consistent with no surplus generation. S is then the hourly backup dispatchable generation required to meet demand. Elements that are constraining will meet the condition C.Gt=Dt where t is the time subscript. High levels of supply (high Gt capacity factors for individual hours) may or may not coincide with low levels of demand, but in the long run we can expect that will occur. So we are looking in practice at the fleet maximum generation for wind in the low demand small hours when there is no solar, which is say ~80% of nominal capacity, plus the amount of solar given that level of wind capacity which does not result in a surplus on sunny summer Sundays, at least for grids where both can contribute sensibly. The LP will find the solutions which can also be found by iterative approximation.

If we now allow for storage, we can increase the values of C to generate surpluses for some individual hours. If we partition S between hours of surplus and hours of deficit we can calculate additions and and withdrawals from storage.

Where there is a surplus we can record it as contributing St (surplus for hour t) multiplied by the efficiency of the storage process to the store – say 85% for pumped storage pumping, 60% for a PEM electrolyser or 90% for an inverter feeding a battery. These amounts may be constrained by available capacity in MW for pumping, electrolysis or inverters, resulting in wasted surplus energy. This becomes an important consideration, since the volume of surplus is highly variable, and it will never be economic to provide capacity to absorb the largest surpluses that occur only rarely when high output and low demand coincide. However, and initial calculation can be run on an unconstrained basis which permits a storage process plant duration curve to be produced to input to the economics of capacity. This chart shows some sample surplus duration curves for the UK, illustrating the difficulties of making hydrogen electrolysis an economic proposition.

https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/nZM72/1/

Where there is a deficit we can proceed similarly: any deficit in excess of the redelivery capacity of the storage must be met by dispatchable backup. Otherwise the redelivery volume Vt reduces the store by an amount Vt divided by the efficiency of redelivery – say 95% for pumped storage hydro, 50% for a hydrogen fuelled CCGT operated intermittently, 90% for a battery inverter. Finesse the calculation by allowing for leakage from the store over time, including energy use for cooling batteries etc. ad lib. Alternatively, simplify by using the round trip efficiency on one or other leg.

By cumulating the surpluses and deficits we can derive the volume in storage. It is convenient to calculate the volume of storage required in MWh (or in reality, the significant number of TWh required) as the difference between the maximum and the minimum of the volume in storage.

As a starting point, and assuming we are dealing with data covering n years, (n integer, >=1) it makes sense to constrain the solution such that the volume in storage at the end of the period is equal to the initial volume. By optimisation we can find the combination of wind and solar that minimises the maximum storage requirement while incurring no wastage beyond round trip losses through storage. We should not be assuming that there is a stock in store for free that doesn’t need to be replenished. This chart shows the storage profile for hydrogen or a 75% round trip (pumped storage, battery) store over the course of a year for GB.

https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/ZmrQw/1/

In practice, and particularly since in the real world no year is exactly like another, it makes sense to explore the sensitivities around such a solution to see how relatively robust it is, and to consider the tradeoffs between different ratios of wind to solar, and between storage and additional renewables capacity with associated wastage, and using dispatchable backup not fuelled from the storage. It is important in conducting the analysis to do so on a marginal basis to understand how the tradeoffs actually perform. We can also analyse the maximum flows required to fill storage and meet demand, and hence begin to examine the need for extra transmission capacity.

Multiyear analyses can reveal huge differences in storage and capacity requirements or potentially largely useless surpluses depending on inter year variablility of renewables performance. I have run some using over 35 year runs of refactored weather data at hourly resolution – over 300,000 rows. Covering that 1 in 35 year bad year can be tough, especially if it comes in a run of poor years. A “good” renewables year will throw up a lot of wastage if we have covered the bad year properly.

The reality is that these calculations require spreadsheets of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of rows (and good quality input data), but the actual calculations are not particularly difficult to set up, and the solutions can often be found using Goal Seek or Solver options, with iterative interpolation as a fallback because of the large number of implicit constraints. They certainly cannot be done on the back of an envelope, with the possible exception of the simplified Thursday Island example which mainly considers monthly data that makes it easy to appreciate the nature of the calculations and the importance of seasonality (even 10 degrees South of the Equator in the Torres Strait). I would encourage you to read it: I put it together having been inspired by the late Roger Andrews, who wrote a good number of articles looking at renewables intermittency and performance at Euan Mearns’ site, performing similar calculations.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  It doesnot add up
January 12, 2023 5:36 am

“It doesnot add up” is, of course, correct that his calculations require complex spreadsheets. The advantage of Mr Pollock’s approach is that, once it is better known, people with no expertise – politicians spring to mind – can be brought to understand that there is a limit beyond which adding more unreliables is wasteful, and to understand approximately what that limit is.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 13, 2023 12:54 pm

It is instructive to consider some basic mathematics. Let g(x) be a capacity factor duration function, defining the proportion of capacity that is produced less than x proportion of the time. It is analytically convenient to consider functions g(x) of the form g(x)=x^n. These have the property that integral g(x) from 0 to 1 is 1/(n+1), and is the average capacity factor. Thus for n=1, g(x)=x, and average capacity factor is 1/2, or 50%; for n=2 g(x)=x^2, and average capacity factor is 1/3 or ~33%, etc. They are actually quite good approximations to real world duration curves for fleets of wind farms, although they need scaling by a fudge factor that reflects that wind is never consistent enough to achieve full capacity across a fleet of farms, but tops out at around 80% of capacity – see the recent wind record in the UK at 20.918GW plus some curtailment cf capacity of 28.5GW.

For a capacity of C, the duration curve is simply Cg(x). For demand we should also properly consider duration curves, recognising the several hours of low demand overnight, rising towards a plateau during much of the day before the early evening peak, subsiding back again to overnight levels, amplified by the weekday/weekend and seasonal factors. For simplicity I will look at convolution with baseload and peak levels of demand, respectively B and P. If the proportion of hours that are baseload is α the average demand is αB + (1-α)P. A fuller analysis looks at a full convolution integral with the different levels of demand. We shall assume that there is no correlation between wind output and time of day which is reasonable for the UK, but not true in e.g. Australia where it tends to be windier at night – or seasonally (whereas in the UK it tends to be windier on average in winter). B and P can also be thought of as low season and high season demand rather than merely diurnal fluctuations.

Following Pollock’s principles we have that all curtailment is avoided when C<=B. For C>B we expect curtailment. The expected rate of curtailment is Cg(x)-B over the interval between x:g(x)=B/C (or x=(B/C)^(1/n) ) and x=1, and the total curtailment is the integral of Cg(x)-B over that interval. Integrating the function we get (Cx^(n+1))/(n+1)-Bx which evaluates to C-B at the upper limit and C(B/C)^((n+1)/n)/(n+1)-B(B/C)^(1/n) at the lower limit, and this level of curtailment applies the proportion α of the time. While C<=P that is the source of curtailment. For C>P we have a similar analysis applying to the peak hours, applying for (1-α) as a proportion of the time. The analysis can be extended to more levels of demand in an obvious manner, and in the limit as a convolution.
For n=1: we get curtailment of
α(C-B)(1-B/C)/2 for C>B, plus a further (1-α)(C-P)(1-P/C)/2 for C>P
Marginal curtailment for an increase in capacity is found by differentiating with respect to C.
α(1-(B^2/C^2))/2, plus a further (1-α)(1-(P^2/C^2)/2 for C>P.
Marginal production is ½, and the useful production, U is ½ less marginal curtailment. The effective cost of marginal capacity is then the LCOE multiplied by 1/2U to allow for the wastage. Capacity additions are asymptotically useless as B/C and P/C tend towards 0 with increasing C. However, for values of C that are only slightly above B marginal curtailment is small, and only occur in baseload hours. If we set C equal to average demand so that total generation by wind is C/2, equal to average capacity factor multiplied by average demand – the Pollock criterion – we find that B<C<P so we are only concerned with curtailment during baseload hours, but that curtailment is positive. There are no obvious grounds for stating that it is optimal. However we have the basis for a cost curve relative to levels of grid penetration (though we should add in other costs caused elsewhere in the system to make a proper tally: already by the time there is sufficient capacity to cause curtailment there are plenty of costs for extra transmission and grid stabilisation and costs imposed on other generators as I have outlined already). An optimised grid would see marginal long run costs of different kinds of generation equal if you can define those long run costs. In practice, the optimisation would need to be risk based, reflecting probabilities for many different parameters.

We can replace B in our formulae by a demand function D(t) where 0<t<1 (year), and integrate over t to provide a convolution.

Higher values of n (including fractional values) produce more complicated expressions for curtailment, but for given C, curtailment occurs less of the time, and there is more headroom to increase capacity at little curtailment penalty. In practice, empirical capacity factor duration functions may have an interval of low to zero output and never attain a 100% capacity factor at the fleet level. Modifying the form of g(x) accordingly may provide more realistic answers, but the underlying analysis gives a feel for how the variables interact to influence the tolerable level of wind generation. Comparison with empirically determined surplus duration curves such as these

https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/nZM72/1/

goes some way to validating the approach. In turn, they highlight the problems of trying to create an economically rational storage system as an alternative to dispatchable backup. That is perhaps the real issue here, especially when combined with the economics of storage turnover.

Reply to  It doesnot add up
January 14, 2023 11:25 pm

60-65% renewables on “Fantasy Island”, perhaps. But what about offshore NY State where Biden wants to drop quite a few $billion, real soon.

Reply to  Dennis Gerald Sandberg
January 15, 2023 4:46 am

The schemes on isolated islands (add King Island, Bass Strait, El Hierro, Canaries, Graciosa, Azores) are all very costly. But none of them has attempted going beyond the 60-65% penetration level, because the costs become prohibitive. Calculations I have done on larger grids show similar patterns. The main determinants are the shape of the demand profile and the shape of the capacity factor duration functions. Because storage is so costly more or less the maximum that can be justified would allow some daily smoothing of solar output. But in practice it limits the amount of solar that can be accommodated sensibly. South Australia has about reached the limit.

geoff@large
January 11, 2023 3:46 am

Here’s Prof Michaux’ 72 page report https://tupa.gtk.fi/raportti/arkisto/16_2021.pdf . Anybody have a link for the 1,000+ page report?

geoff@large
January 11, 2023 3:50 am
Nik
January 11, 2023 3:51 am

What Douglas Pollock’s brilliant and, at first blush, unexpected result means is that the miserably low capacity factor R is in fact also the fundamental limit fmax on the contribution that unreliables can make to the grid without prohibitively expensive and logistically unachievable large-scale static-battery backup.”

Which politicians and other lefties will ignore or view as a benefit.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Nik
January 11, 2023 11:24 am

No, the climate Communists will not be able to ignore the stupefying and entirely unaffordable cost of static backup batteries or of “green” hydrogen generation. The people are already close to mutiny on the climate issue. The establishment of the Pollock limit provides a simple but irrefutable argument against installing any unreliables in excess of that iron limit.

January 11, 2023 4:08 am

You have to look at the whole system costs of integrating wind. The first few turbines make little difference to overall costs, so the cost is approximated by LCOE calculations. Add more and you start to need to invest in additional grid stabilisation to cope with flicker. Add more and you start hitting the operating regimes of other plant on the grid, which gets forced to operate at reduced efficiency and with more frequent ramping that imposes wear and tear and adds to maintenance cost. Reduced running hours means that capital cost must be recovered from reduced sales volumes.

Add more and you reach the point at which wind has to be curtailed to ensure adequate inertia is available. Add more and it has to be curtailed because it exceeds demand in low demand hours and storage is unable to cope economically. Add more and the hours of curtailment increase, and the amounts of curtailment in .ow demand hours also increase. Overall curtailment increases quadratically, and wind needs to recoup its costs from uncurtailed output. Meanwhile periods of surplus imply zero or negative spot prices, requiring subsidies to keep inertia providing generation operational. Supply on windless days is barely affected by all the increased wind capacity. Storage, other than as an aid to grid stabilisation remains uneconomic.

The marginal useful output from adding more wind farms falls sharply. The result is that just the raw cost of useful power from wind (ignoring the on costs for extra transmission capacity and dented economics for other generators etc.) becomes a rapidly escalating multiple of LCOE. It can reach 10 times LCOE and still fail to replace the need for almost 100% backup generation.

michel
Reply to  It doesnot add up
January 11, 2023 6:48 am

Thanks, excellent summary of the argument, a physical explanation of the limits of intermittency. And yes, LCOE does indeed fail to account for curtailment – and your point, which I have not come across anyone before pointing out, is very interesting: that the consequence of increasing wind supply to increase coverage of lower wind episodes is increased curtailment.

So in effect its paradoxical. The more wind you install, the lower the usable capacity factor becomes, because you have to deduct the excess which you end up paying them not to supply. Nice point. I should like to see it worked out in quantitative terms, but its a nice argument. Good one.

Beware of unforeseen collateral consequences!

Richard Greene
Reply to  michel
January 11, 2023 7:48 am

LCOE + Liars Cost of Energy

Mr.
Reply to  Richard Greene
January 11, 2023 11:41 am

LCOE + Liars Cost of Energy

LCOE = Liars Cost of Energy
?

michel
Reply to  It doesnot add up
January 11, 2023 7:02 am

Also, yes, the important parameter is indeed the total system cost of installing the wind or solar or whatever. Count all the cash flows, first basic principal of business case production and analysis.

Reply to  It doesnot add up
January 11, 2023 7:08 am

Yours, not Lord Monckton’s, is the actual answer.

Let’s forget your first paragraph for the moment and assume there’s no reliable generation. Even without backup, you could asymptotically approach (but not quite reach) supplying the entire load over the whole year by increasing wind and/or solar nameplate capacity. It’s just that curtailment would eat up so great a portion of the unreliables’ available output that the cost would become prohibitive.

So he’s right that the returns to adding unreliables capacity diminish precipitously. But he’s incorrect to say that:

The maximum possible fraction of total grid generation contributable by unreliables turns out to be equal to the average fraction of the nameplate capacity of those reliables that is realistically achievable under real-world conditions.

Mikehig
Reply to  Joe Born
January 11, 2023 7:26 am

…as shown here:
https://grid.iamkate.com/
Wind + Solar contributed nearly 34% of the UK’s power output last year.

Elegant theory trumped by reality, paraphrasing Feynman.

Reply to  Mikehig
January 11, 2023 9:23 am

Usually an all wind or an all solar solution are not optimal (Thursday Island proved to be an exception). Some solar compensates for sunny windless days, and allows a greater overall penetration.

Mikehig
Reply to  It doesnot add up
January 11, 2023 10:19 am

Totally agree!
I did not mean my post as an endorsement of renewables in the slightest: it was just to point out that the theory fell at the first fence.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Mikehig
January 11, 2023 11:30 am

No, the theory did not fall at the first fence: Mikehig merely failed to engage his brain. He did not understand the head posting, simple though it is.

Most UK wind generation is from offshore wind, which, as the head posting points out, has a UK Pollock limit of about 30%. One does not have to allow all that much more for solar to get up to 34%.

The central point of Mr Pollock’s argument stands: the capacity factors appropriate for the energy-generation species and territories concerned serve as the iron limit above which adding those species to the grid contributes no additional power unless that power is dumped into vastly expensive static batteries or “green”-hydrogen electrolysis.

This is a result which, when published in a learned journal, will cause shock and awe among grid operators and electricity generators.

Mikehig
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 14, 2023 8:42 am

From the post:
“For onshore wind, that capacity factor R is a depressingly low 25%. For offshore wind, one might get 30%. The reason is that a lot of the time the wind is not blowing at all, and some of the time the wind is blowing too much to allow safe rotation of the turbines.”
From the link I posted, wind alone accounted for 29.1% from a roughly 60:40 offshore:onshore mix. If onshore really is limited to 25% then offshore must have exceeded 30% by some margin to get that result….

chadb
Reply to  Mikehig
January 11, 2023 9:52 am

ERCOT (Texas) is a better example. They have hit 30% (on the road to 45%) while providing electricity at a below average price and while expanding their grid.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  chadb
January 11, 2023 11:32 am

Perhaps chadb should study an elementary textbook of meteorology. He will find that Texas is somewhat closer to the equator than the UK. Therefore, Texas gets more sunshine, more directly delivered. Thus, the capacity factor for solar generation in Texas is higher than in the UK.

chadb
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 11, 2023 12:10 pm

That means that wind and solar power cannot contribute more than about a quarter of total electricity demand on the grid, unless there is battery backup.

…but no one had any idea why grids such as Germany and the UK, whose installed unreliables capacity is so much greater than 25% of total generation, are incapable of getting their mean annual contribution from wind power, in particular, above 25%.

While this doesn’t expressly state “no grid is capable of getting more than 25% of its power from wind and solar,” it certainly implies that. What I was doing was saying “yeah, but look over there, they did what you said couldn’t be done.” If your point is that the UK will never produce more than 25% of electricity generation by solar, then sure I’ll go with that. If your point is “there aren’t grids where wind & solar are economically viable at scale” then my response is “but ERCOT.”
Interestingly you point to solar insolation, but not wind availability. You should have pointed to that as well since average wind resource is also much better in ERCOT than in UK. Offshore is obviously better in UK, but then offshore is stupidly expensive.
However, I’d like to clarify your actual point. Is your point
a) Solar power is uneconomic in UK
b) Solar + Wind are unlikely to contribute more than ~25% of annual generation on any large grid without substantial wholesale price increases
I think the difference between those two hypotheses is pretty substantial.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  chadb
January 11, 2023 12:35 pm

Don’t quibble pettily. The head posting specifically refers to the 25% capacity factor for onshore wind and the 30% capacity factor for offshore wind as applying to Britain, and simili modo to Germany. If chadb is incapable of comprehending that, for instance, the Falkland Islands has twice as much wind as Britain and thus a wind capacity factor about double that of Britain, or that Texas has more sunshine than Britain and thus a higher capacity factor, then he should consult an elementary textbook of meteorology and do a lot less shouting and a lot more thinking.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 11, 2023 3:20 pm

Those averages, be they ever so high, don’t cover the times it is too cold, too hot, too still, or too cloudy.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  AndyHce
January 12, 2023 5:38 am

Welcome to statistics 101. The fact that a mean is a mean does not mean that Mr Pollock’s result is unsound.

Reply to  Mikehig
January 11, 2023 10:25 am

At what cost?

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Mikehig
January 11, 2023 11:26 am

Since the Pollock limit for wind in the UK is of order 25%, with perhaps another 10% for solar power, perhaps Mikehig – rather than taking cheap shots – would like to look at the equations and prove Mr Pollock wrong.

Mikehig
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 16, 2023 9:49 am

Just look at the real world data for the UK, per the link I posted.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Joe Born
January 11, 2023 10:42 am

“It doesnot add up” is correct in all that he says, but so is Douglas Pollock. If Mr Born wishes to challenge Mr Pollock’s mathematics, perhaps he would be kind enough to be specific. Otherwise, Mr Pollock’s result stands.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 11, 2023 12:31 pm

Nothing in my experience suggests that much would be gained by my explaining the math to Lord Monckton.  

But those who have the wit to profit from actual data are invited to consider Fig. 3 of my Naptown Numbers piece called “Will Batteries Make Wind and Solar Reliable?”  That plot depicts so scaling ERCOT’s 2018 uncurtailed wind output as to make it average ERCOT’s average load.  

In that year the wind turbines’ output averaged 37% of their nameplate capacity, implying according to Lord Monckton that wind could not on average supply more than 37% of the system load. But scaling the nameplate capacity to 2.73 times the average load results without storage in only 26% curtailment: with that much wind capacity wind would have supplied 74% of the demand.  

Of course, Texas is uncommonly windy, so those results are no doubt atypical. Also, most of the best sites in that state presumably have already been taken, so I’m not suggesting that in reality adding that much capacity would produce that much useable power. 

But the data still show that Lord Monckton is wrong.

Fig 3.png
chadb
Reply to  Joe Born
January 11, 2023 1:19 pm

Exactly the type of work I was referring to. I suspect the cutoff for wind will be closer to 10% curtailment (closer to 60% of annual generation). Once you add in solar you can push 80% generation while maintaining 10% curtailment.
Most of the best sites have indeed been taken, but there are two caveats to that:
a) they were taken early on and have smaller and less efficient turbines on them. Repowering would make a big difference
b) the less windy sites (especially along the coast) have different production profiles and so a higher penetration may be possible (generating next MW when last MW is idle aids in penetration)

Reply to  chadb
January 11, 2023 2:09 pm

Although I’m sure the data are out there somewhere, I didn’t immediately find hourly data comprehensive enough to enable me to do the calculation for a hybrid (wind + solar) system in Texas. A better researcher could no doubt do a better job than I did.

But the “Caveat” section of my Naptown Numbers post makes a hybrid-system calculation for a year in Germany, and the results suggest that a hybrid system, too, would be expensive, although less so than wind or solar individually.

Nothing I’ve seen so far has convinced me that on any very significant scale wind and/or solar would be cheaper than thermal and/or hydro. As I say, I don’t have all the data, so I’m open to being convinced otherwise. But so far solar- and wind-power proponents have not impressed me as being serious people.

chadb
Reply to  Joe Born
January 11, 2023 2:46 pm

I can’t pull the data right now given my vpn, but do a google search for: ercot wind solar annual generation
It will give you a page with a downloadable excel file that has all the hourly data for ERCOT going back years. I would suggest that if you touch 2021 you be very careful with February. The grid was crazy that month.
I’ve done the exact same scaling you showed above with scaling wind and solar. I have also been pretty careful in the past by scaling to a given MW rather than a pure scalar. That isn’t as big a deal for wind, but solar doubled over the past year, so you have to be careful with that one. I find that there is a pretty nice point at ~65GW of wind and ~30GW of solar that provides a lot of penetration without curtailing either renewables or nuclear significantly.
Just so you know, I’m not a solar-and-wind proponent. I honestly don’t care where the electricity comes from, mostly I want it to be cheap. If wind & solar beat the marginal cost of gas (and they did earlier this year, but don’t right now) then wind and solar will be installed until the point that they are curtailed, and that ends up being ~60% penetration for ERCOT.

Reply to  chadb
January 11, 2023 4:00 pm

Yes, 60% penetration sounds plausible as a point before which returns to additional unreliables capacity don’t drop off too precipitously. And about 2:1 wind:solar is close to what I found, too. Also, I agree that there are times when a combined thermal/solar/wind combination would temporarily be cheaper than thermal only.

But I’ve yet to see a compelling case for its being cheaper over the life of a thermal plant–although, as I say, I haven’t nailed all the data down myself.

Let’s suppose, though, that 60% is a sweet spot that would indeed be cheaper in the long run. I think ERCOT (and other organizations) have demonstrated that price-structure disparities make it fiendishly difficult to design a market that accurately reflects true cost and would therefore gravitate to that level.

I don’t profess to know the solution to the market-design problem, but as a first stab I think the bidders should all be held to the same reliability standards–which, e.g., wind-farm operators would need to meet by arranging their own battery, hydro, thermal, or other back-up rather than free-riding on competitor suppliers’ reliability as they do now.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  chadb
January 11, 2023 2:48 pm

More hand-waving from the furtively pseudonymous “chadb”. Mr Pollock’s fundamental limit, if adhered to, prevents any systemic wasting of electrical generation. In Texas, which certainly has plenty of sun and may also have plenty of wind, the combined Pollock limit will be greater than in the UK, but installing capacity beyond that limit will simply be wasteful.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Joe Born
January 11, 2023 2:40 pm

Nothing in my experience suggests that much would be gained by explaining the math to Mr Born, who generously but inaccurately attributes Mr Pollock’s result to me, saying that “the data still show that Lord Monckton is wrong”.

Nice try, but no. Mr Born’s heroically half-baked and lamentably ludicrous example amply confirms that Mr Pollock’s fundamental limit on the contribution of unreliables to an electricity grid – namely, the capacity factor of the generation species in question in the relevant territory – is correctly derived.

At present, the wind capacity factor for Texas is 37% (actually, 36% averaged over the past six years, but let’s go with Mr Born’s 37%). Mr Born says, en effet, that if one were to add another 64%, so that wind power in Texas produced 101% of total annual grid output, and then threw away 26%, wind power would generate 74% of total grid output in Texas, and there was Lord Monckton saying, en effet, that wind couldn’t provide more than 37%, so Lord Monckton must be wrong, blah, blah.

Bozhe moi! It is made explicit in the head posting, which Mr Born should get his kindergarten mistress to read to him one day, that if one were to add capacity to the grid beyond the Pollock limit one would have to install prohibitively expensive and logistically unfeasible battery storage capacity [or, as some here have suggested, “green” hydrogen electrolysis] to take up the otherwise-wasted surplus generation.

Surely only Mr Born could be incompetent enough, and malevolent enough, to imagine that Mr Pollock would suggest that it was physically impossible for idiotic governments to mandate the construction of so many more unreliables that surplus electrical power would have to be thrown away.

The whole point of Mr Pollock taking the trouble to derive his eponymous limit was to discourage foolish governments from doing what the foolish Mr Born would be stupid enough to do. Who but a nitwit of the first water would suggest increasing unreliables capacity to 101% of total grid output and then throwing 41% of that surplus capacity away?

It is precisely to prevent such egregious stupidity, to say nothing of the heavy financial consequences of making the additional usable fraction of the unreliables generating capacity 41% more expensive that the existing unreliables generating capacity, to say still less of the ineluctable consequences in unaffordable and probably uncorrectable grid destabilization, that Mr Pollock did the math that has passed so completely over Mr Born’s head and revealed the existence of his limit.

If Mr Born’s latest half-witted word salad is the best the paid climate Communists on this site can do to try to impugn Mr Pollock’s result and the fatal threat it presents to their strategy of destroying the Western economies in the specious name of Saving The Planet, then Mr Pollock has nothing to fear.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 11, 2023 3:32 pm

Lord Monckton’s post purported to explain why the average unreliables percentage contribution to a thermally backed up system such as Germany’s hasn’t so far exceeded the capacity factor.

Here’s his explanation:

What Douglas Pollock’s brilliant and, at first blush, unexpected result means is that the miserably low capacity factor R is in fact also the fundamental limit fmax on the contribution that unreliable can make to the grid without prohibitively expensive and logistically unachievable large-scale static-battery backup.

Although my post was directed to how expensive batteries are, its data show that with no batteries at all a thermally backed up system’s average unreliables percentage could still exceed the the unreliables capacity factor by a significant amount.

No amount of Monckton bluster can erase that clear fact.

Incidentally, wind’s percentage contribution would have significantly exceeded the 37% capacity factor even if we’d scaled the average uncurtailed wind output to only half the load average. In that case it would have contributed nearly 49%.

Reply to  Joe Born
January 11, 2023 11:06 pm

Aren’t you ignoring the time of day and time of year variability in electricity prices when you reference paying to curtail? The wind generator is paid the average annual kwh rate for curtailing midday on moderate temperature sunny and windy days. Here in California that means $0.32kwh instead of a fair market price closer to $0.03kwh. Insanity. That’s the only reason I have rooftop solar, I think it should be illegal, but I can’t pass up the money. I don’t make the rules, I just play the game.

Reply to  Dennis Gerald Sandberg
January 12, 2023 9:53 am

Curtailment in the UK is paid on a cheapest to curtail bid basis. That means that wind on market prices or low subsidies can bid anything up to the market clearing subsidy level, and it is the lowest subsidies that get the curtailment payments in demerit order, leaving the most heavily subsidised onstream. When market prices are low that means generation guaranteed an expensive fixed price under a CFD stays on.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Joe Born
January 12, 2023 5:44 am

Mr Born continues, as usual, wilfully and surlily to misunderstand mathematics which, though simple, seems to be well above his pay-grade. I have already answered Mr Born’s childish point about how it is of course physically possible to install more unreliables than the Pollock limit, by explaining that waste and cost arise above that limit and increase rapidly the more the limit is exceeded. Mr Born’s original heroically stupid example is a good demonstration of that fact. Mr Born, having realized his example was stupid, now waters down the stupidity a bit by suggesting a smaller excess of unreliables installation above the Pollock limit. But there would still be wasted power, leading to very costly capacity or constraint or curtailment payments. The Pollock limit is a remarkably simple way, far simpler than Mr Born’s inspissate and characteristically obscurantist attempts at calculation, of showing where that limit is.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 12, 2023 6:20 am

Any generation that exceeds demand will simply be wasted, like flaring a natural gas well.

Reply to  Joe Born
January 11, 2023 10:39 pm

You state: according to Lord Monckton that wind could not on average supply more than 37% of the system load. But scaling the nameplate capacity to 2.73 times the average load results without storage in only 26% curtailment: with that much wind capacity wind would have supplied 74% of the demand.

What is the economics of your system? The way I read it you’re cutting the CF dramatically and paying 26% curtailment on a much larger system plus still requiring conventional backup for 26% of the average load. Surely, the price of electricity would be less by simply completely avoiding W&S.

Reply to  Dennis Gerald Sandberg
January 12, 2023 1:07 am

The whole point of my Naptown Numbers piece is that wind and solar ordinarily don’t make sense. (I say “ordinarily” because unusually high fuel prices could tilt the economics in their favor even though you’d sometimes need nearly 100% back-up capacity.)

The only point of my first comment above is that the head post’s “fundamental limit” is incorrect, not that adopting wind and/or solar on a large scale is a good idea.

chadb
Reply to  Joe Born
January 12, 2023 3:57 am

I think people here are intentionally misinterpreting both you and me. Neither of us have actually argued that we should have a grid with 50% wind, merely that is is possible, contra the article’s statement that “ the maximum possible fraction of total grid generation contributable by unreliables turns out to be equal to the average fraction of the nameplate capacity of those reliables that is realistically achievable under real-world conditions.”
There isn’t any sort of hedge there, no conditional “without overbuild,” nothing like that. The statement flat says you cannot exceed capacity factor.
You generously pointed out a specific grid and showed exactly what conditions would give 74% penetration (exactly twice the capacity factor). You didn’t argue that it was a great plan, but you mathematically proved the equation wrong by providing the counterexample. What do you get for your trouble?
“Mr Born’s heroically half-baked and lamentably ludicrous example amply confirms that Mr Pollock’s fundamental limit on the contribution of unreliables to an electricity grid – namely, the capacity factor of the generation species in question in the relevant territory – is correctly derived”
The assertion: grid contributions cannot exceed the capacity factor
Your example: Here is a case where you would provide double the capacity factor
Response: See, he just showed you can’t exceed the capacity factor.
???
When someone cannot accept a clear and obvious proof of their mistake they are either dumb or intentionally obtuse. The author resorts to name calling in at least half his responses. I really think he should do better than that.

Reply to  chadb
January 12, 2023 7:57 am

But he won’t.

I’ve witnessed his dishonest discourse since nearly eight years ago, when he got in over his head and I tried to throw him a line. Part of it, no doubt, is that he really is as innumerate as he seems. But he’s so consistently impervious to guidance that I suspect he lives for the approval that gushes from those NPC types his posts seem to attract, so he can’t often afford to admit that he’s wrong.

It’s a sad case, because he seems to have a flypaper mind, and the resultant ability to regurgitate facts and (gratuitous) Latin can be persuasive to a certain type of reader and would therefore help advance climate-crisis skepticism if he didn’t persist in straying into mathematics, at which he’s embarrassingly bad.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Joe Born
January 12, 2023 5:46 am

Mr Born is wrong. His own examples show that, exactly as Mr Sandberg points out, exceeding the Pollock limit is costly, wasteful and destabilizing.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 12, 2023 10:47 am

Monckton of Brenchley January 12, 2023 5:46 am

Mr Born is wrong. His own examples show that, exactly as Mr Sandberg points out, exceeding the Pollock limit is costly, wasteful and destabilizing.

Christopher, please take all of this in the spirit of friendship in which it is offered.

You’re moving the goalposts.

Your original argument was that the “Pollock limit” is “the maximum possible fraction of total grid generation contributable by unreliables”.

No hedging. No special cases. You claimed it’s “the maximum contributable”, full stop.

That’s why I went to look at the data, to see if that is true. And guess what? It’s not. I posted up several examples where that is not true.

Your argument was not that “exceeding the Pollock limit is costly, wasteful, and destabilizing”. That brand-new argument, which you are making now, is a very different and much more defensible argument … but you’ve moved the goalposts.

Finally, the antipathy and insults you’ve directed at Joe Born are not a good look on you. Insulting Joe’s excellent mathematical knowledge and ability just makes you appear weak, and it does nothing it strengthen your case.

Your friend as always,

w.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 12, 2023 12:01 pm

Thanks for the kind words.

For what it’s worth, he accompanying plot implied by those ERCOT data illustrates the more-defensible argument to which Lord Monckton has now retreated. (It’s from a proposed post I sent Mr. Watts early this morning to help clarify the issue. As I expected, he won’t run it.)

Fig 03.png
Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Joe Born
January 12, 2023 2:30 pm

Monckton has not “retreated”, as Mr Born in his characteristically malevolent fashion suggests. The head posting plainly states that “What Douglas Pollock’s brilliant and, at first blush, unexpected result means is that the miserably low capacity factor R is in fact also the fundamental limit fmax on the contribution that unreliable can make to the grid without prohibitively expensive and logistically unachievable large-scale static-battery backup.

Without backup, the surplus generation above the Pollock limit would be substantially or wholly – and always expensively – wasted. It is a pity that Mr Born – and for that matter Mr Eschenbach – did not read the head posting with due care and attention before commenting.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 12, 2023 3:14 pm

The term gaslighting comes to mind.

Reply to  Joe Born
January 12, 2023 5:50 pm

Joe,

Thank goodness for you and Willis! While I agree with most folks here that government mandated renewables are a cropper, it’s frustrating that MoB insists on defending Pollock’s ‘magic’ proof, while demeaning his critics.

For my part, I provided him with a very concise economic argument why Pollock is wrong, which you’re most welcome to read and provide feedback on here:

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/01/11/the-final-nail-in-the-coffin-of-renewable-energy/#comment-3665007

But my reason for commenting here, is that after being told repeatedly to ‘re-read the head piece’, I actually know where Pollock’s derivation, or MoB’s interpretation of it, runs aground.

Specifically, and avoiding most of the hocus hocus, he defines:

H [=] mean system generation,
R [=] average renewable capacity factor,
f [=] renewable generation / total generation,
N [=] min renewable nameplate capacity to meet renewable generation, and finally,

f_max [=] f given H=N, which must equal (renewable generation / total generation) given H=N, or substituting from above,

f_max = (N*R) / (N) = R

Here’s the rub – there is absolutely no support for the premise that f_max occurs when H=N, since it is quite possible for f to take on any value between 0 and 1.0!

And if my take is correct, I wouldn’t want to be the person waving Pollock’s paper around in front of a public utility commission.

Reply to  Frank from NoVA
January 13, 2023 5:56 am

Exactly. As I said above, though, “Nothing in my experience suggests that much would be gained by my explaining the math to Lord Monckton.”

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Joe Born
January 13, 2023 1:06 am

The term “nitwit” comes to mind. Mr Born continues to try to maintain that I had not mentioned that if one added more unreliables to a grid one would need costly battery backup to take the surplus capacity, a point which is made explicitly, and twice, in the head posting, in a longish section devoted to the problems of battery backup.

Reply to  Joe Born
January 13, 2023 12:23 pm

Nearly right. In practice, curtailment (or the need for a very cheap high efficiency storage alternative) starts when maximum wind output exceeds minimum demand (perhaps adjusted down to allow adequate inertia providing generation), even absent transmission constraints. Maximum potential wind output for a fleet of wind farms will be below their nominal capacity, because the wind never blows evenly everywhere, and there are indivdual turbine outages for maintenance, etc.. Actual output will be affected also by economic or grid instructed curtailment.

In the UK and Sweden we have long seen curtailment because of insufficient transmission capacity to handle high levels of output from remote wind farms in the North. In part it is uneconomic to provide the capacity, since it is only used when output is close to maximum, which is a small percentage of the time.

Reply to  It doesnot add up
January 13, 2023 1:06 pm

In the UK and Sweden we have long seen curtailment because of insufficient transmission capacity to handle high levels of output from remote wind farms in the North.

Good point.

A tacit assumption in my Naptown Numbers piece‘s simplified calculations was absence of any ERCOT transmission limitations. That this assumption is probably unrealistic is another reason for considering those calculations optimistic.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 12, 2023 2:24 pm

No., Read the head posting. It makes it quite clear that if more renewables are added to the grid than the Pollock limit the additional capacity is wasted and the costs are large.

For instance: “That means that wind and solar power cannot contribute more than about a quarter of total electricity demand on the grid, unless there is battery backup.”

The words are right there in the head posting. No ifs, no buts.

And Mr Born’s example was indeed a demonstration that the Pollock limit is correct. He had said that in Texas the capacity factor for wind is 37%, but that if one installed enough capacity to make that 101% one would be able to generate 74% of total grid output, but 26% (equivalent to 41% of the extra generation) would be wasted. The whole idea of the Pollock limit is to provide a warming of the point at which, if one goes on adding unreliables to a grid, much if not all of the additional generation will the thrown away.

I realize that this argument, however simple it seems to me, may be not so easy for others to follow. But on any view Mr Born’s proposed refutation of the Pollock limit is in reality a substantial confirmation of it.

Stephen Philbrick
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 16, 2023 12:35 pm

This statement:

The whole idea of the Pollock limit is to provide a warning of the point at which, if one goes on adding unreliables to a grid, much if not all of the additional generation will the thrown away.

is exactly correct

The Pollock limit is not a limit in the sense that the speed of light is a limit, a limit beyond which one may not surpass due to the immutable laws of physics.

While I am searching for a better analogy, the one that comes to mind is a speed limit. The posted speed limit doesn’t prohibit driving faster than the posted limit, it simply is a warning that there may be negative consequences if you go faster.

I prefer to think of it as an inflection point than a wall. The marginal value of renewables goes up to a point where it meets the Pollock limit, then it doesn’t drop to zero but it follows a different curve that’s likely to eventually slope downward.

Reply to  Joe Born
January 12, 2023 6:22 am

Solar PV with lead-acid storage is a reliable and cost-effective solution for off-grid remote locations.

Reply to  Joe Born
January 12, 2023 9:34 pm

I read your “piece”. Excellent, but I need some help with this:

“We’ve also seen that even without wind turbines batteries would tend to promote base-load operation. So by combining batteries with wind and solar farms the quoted passage seems to be predicting something further, and nothing in the piece discourages the impression that wind backed up by batteries will soon be cheaper than base-load thermal plants.”

I understand that an installed and commissioned grid scale battery pack array cost is $500kW.h.and therefore forever too expensive beyond four (4) hours, much less the >100 hours required (as you know some argue for three (3) months. I can’t understand your:

“nothing in the piece discourages the impression that wind backed up by batteries will soon be cheaper than base-load thermal plants.”

Also, as believe you are saying, “batteries would tend to promote base-load operation.” You’re the only person, other than myself that has made that argument: If for some strange reason battery or molten sand would become economical it would better serve as surplus night generation at a conventional powerplant.

Reply to  Dennis Gerald Sandberg
January 13, 2023 4:59 am

Thank you for the kind words.

I’m not completely sure I understand your questions, but I hope the following is somewhat responsive:

Basically, I was attempting to say that, although the Wall Street Journal article didn’t say so explicitly, it could easily have left the impression that because of battery-price reductions thermal generation could profitably be replaced completely by wind and solar backed up by batteries. One of the passages that could have encouraged that impression was the statement that “building batteries to harvest and dispatch inexpensive and clean power from wind and solar farms, and not just for a couple of hours after sunset . . . threatens not only peakers, but many traditional power plants.”

But, although I still think the article leaves that impression, the paragraph I followed that article excerpt with doesn’t seem as relevant now as I must have thought it was at the time. That paragraph merely observes that, from the point of view of operating base-load thermal units, it’s detrimental to add wind and solar but helpful to add batteries. 

And in the latter connection it was obscure of me to say that “even without wind turbines batteries would tend to promote base-load operation.” The possibility that I thereby attempted but failed to state clearly was that the combination of a (“base-load”) plant that produces a more or less a steady output with one (a “peaker”) that follows load variations could profitably be replaced by the combination of batteries with the steady-output unit alone. 

Sorry for the resulting confusion.

Reply to  Joe Born
January 15, 2023 5:17 am

Got it. Thank you for your detailed response.

chadb
Reply to  It doesnot add up
January 11, 2023 9:38 am

Fair enough. On the other hand renewables provide a hedge against gas prices. You effectively lock in future production at the capital cost. Anyone who did that in 2018-2021 avoided some nasty surprises in gas prices over the last year. As of now with lower gas prices and much higher interest rates I suspect the calculation goes the other way, and renewable installations will stall for the next year or so (except what has already received loans).

Drake
Reply to  chadb
January 11, 2023 12:59 pm

What “future” production? When is it produced?

It is not dispatchable so you have locked in NOTHING n a future day when the wind is not blowing.

chadb
Reply to  Drake
January 11, 2023 1:31 pm

It doesn’t matter which day. This year the cost of gas was above $8/mmBTU for extended periods of time. Every time a solar panel was operating the rate payers avoided that cost. I’m not sure if you are intentionally missing that point. I’m not arguing that solar or wind is ideal, just that the avoided fuel cost matters, especially when we have no idea what the cost of fuel will be in a year.

Reply to  chadb
January 11, 2023 4:43 pm

A better hedge would have been keeping coal open and stockpiling. In fact I recommend precisely that to UK politicians in mid 2021. Also fixing up and refuelling nuclear. Again they dithered, betting on their Saudi Arabia of wind. Better still would have been pushing for more gas production at home and abroad instead of blocking it and its financing. Again something I have been pushing ever since Carney left the BoE to become king of ESG.

Reply to  It doesnot add up
January 11, 2023 10:30 am

You comment is one of the best in this string.
It inspired me to rewrite it, and use it in my wind/solar articles.

Here it is

You have to look at the whole electrical system costs of integrating wind. 

The first few percent of annual wind contribution make little difference to overall costs, so the cost is approximated by the all-in, levelized cost of energy, All-in LCOE, calculations. 

Add a few more wind percent, and you start to need to invest in additional grid stabilization to cope with flicker. 

Add a few more wind percent, and you start adversely hitting the efficient operating regimes of other power plants on the grid, which are forced to operate: 

1) At reduced outputs while counteracting the ups and downs of wind, which is less efficient (more Btu and CO2/kWh), 
2) Imposes increased wear and tear that adds to maintenance cost, i
3) Increases the frequency of plant start/stops, which is inefficient. 
4) The reduced running hours means costs, such as for capital, O&M, and all other costs must be recovered from reduced electricity sales volumes.

Add a few more wind percent, and you reach the point at which wind has to be curtailed to ensure adequate, grid-stabilizing inertia is available. 

Add a few more wind percent, and wind has to be curtailed, because it exceeds demand during low-demand hours and energy storage is unable to cope economically. 

Add few more wind percent, and the hours of curtailment increase, and the amounts of curtailment during low-demand hours also increase. Overall curtailment increases quadratically, and Owners need to recoup costs from un-curtailed output. 

Meanwhile periods of surplus imply zero or negative spot prices, which requires extra subsidies to ensure adequate grid-stabilizing inertia remains available. 

Supply on windless days is barely affected by all the increased wind capacity. 
Storage, other than as an aid to grid stabilization, remains uneconomic.

Adding more and more wind percent, will more and more decrease the usefulness of its output, because more and more of it will be curtailed. 

The net result of decreasing the usefulness from increased wind (ignoring the costs for increased grid expansion/augmentation, and the adverse impact on the economics of the other power plants, etc.) becomes a rapidly escalating multiple of All-in LCOE.
 
It can reach up to 10 times the All-in LCOE, and still fail to replace the need for almost 100% standby/backup generation.

GRID-SCALE BATTERY SYSTEMS IN NEW ENGLAND TO COUNTERACT SHORTFALL OF ONE-DAY WIND/SOLAR LULL
https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/grid-scale-battery-systems-in-new-england

Reply to  wilpost
January 15, 2023 5:48 am

and the cited article goes on to say,

“The turnkey capital cost would be 259,700 MWh x $400/kWh, delivered as AC = $1.037 trillion, lasting about 15 years
 
A 24-h wind/solar lull, with wind/solar at 50% of the annual grid load of New England, would require a $1.0 trillion battery system, if that battery system were the only source of making up the wind/solar shortfall.

Comment: Can we now “put the final nail in the coffin”? Let’s end the pretense, grid scale wind and solar, at more than the system capacity factor, is forever too expensive.

Wind and solar is a failed 40-yearlong failed experiment and it must end now, not after Biden’s inflation inflaming Act has severely damaged our economy. Our only hope is that the Republican House can manage to withhold the funding. Don’t doubt it.

Reply to  It doesnot add up
January 11, 2023 2:40 pm

Correct. Presumably one could run many joint simulations of fuel and other variable costs, load, wind speed, cloud cover, etc. and then optimize the dispatch of conventional and renewable sources (including storage) for each simulation to obtain a joint distribution of supply cost vs. renewable percentage. One might then be able to pick an ‘optimal’ percentage of renewables on the grid. But to paraphrase the finance types, simulated performance is no guarantee of actual performance.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
January 11, 2023 3:12 pm

And in doing those optimizations, in future, grid operators will have the advantage of understanding the Pollock limit. That will make their analyses simpler and more reliable, and the resulting pattern of generation cheaper, stabler and less wasteful.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 11, 2023 4:32 pm

Sir, you’re treating the ‘Pollock Limit’ as if it were a physical law, e.g., the Betz Limit on wind turbines. It’s not.

I don’t care for renewables any more than you do. However, I can’t see how the Pollock Limit, as derived above, could ever succeed before a public utility commission in NY, CA or any REGGI state – the intervenors for the w+s interests would blow it out of the water.

Reply to  Frank from NoVA
January 11, 2023 11:12 pm

You’re certainly right about California, but only because facts, no matter how they are presented, don’t matter. We’re woke out here.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Dennis Gerald Sandberg
January 12, 2023 6:09 am

Mr Sandberg is right and Frank from NoVA wrong. Frank is, perhaps, not familiar with elementary linear algebra. The Pollock limit is the maximum generation by unreliables on a grid that will not be egregiously wasteful by generating surplus output that must be discarded via costly constraint/capacity/curtailment payments. Whether climate-Communist administrations pay any attention to reality is quite another question.

Gregg Eshelman
January 11, 2023 4:13 am

What’s the UK wind power situation look like if the powers that be install the connection upgrade required to actually use all the wind generated electricity from the Orkney Islands? The wind blows nearly constantly there, so pretty much every good spot for a turbine has one – but they can only send a fraction of the power to the main islands due to a very undersized connection under the strait. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UmsfXWzvEA

Reply to  Gregg Eshelman
January 11, 2023 9:35 am

The problem is not just the capacity across the Pentland Firth, but the need to deliver power where the demand is in Southern England. All that extra transmission capacity adds enormously to cost. If you could park Orkney and its winds in the Thames Estuary you might have a winner. The London Array manages about 40% load factor.

The practically achieved load factors from Orkney actually aren’t quite as high as they are touted to be.

https://www.ref.org.uk/generators/search.php?Location=Orkney&start=0&dir=desc&order=12

DavsS
Reply to  It doesnot add up
January 11, 2023 10:02 am

Tidal and wave still have a long way to go!

Reply to  DavsS
January 11, 2023 3:58 pm

I can write at length on the difficulties they have encountered, and why I think they are going nowhere.

bobpjones
January 11, 2023 4:39 am

Fantastic article, thanks Christopher Monckton:

Where I live, I can see Drax, some 30 miles away, with 6 generators (2 coal 4 biofuel 🙁 ), capable of outputting c4GW.

Three miles away I can see a wind farm, 9 turbines, generating 2MW each.

Both sites occupy a similar area of land, c0.7sq miles.

For a wind farm to generate the same output as Drax, would require, c2000 turbines, and occupy c 150 sq miles.

At 25%, that increases to c 8000 turbines, and over 600 sq miles (the size of Grtr Manchester). What that doesn’t take into account, is that the topography is less than ideal, and therefore logically, more appropriate land would be required.

Apart from the obvious cost, of making the landowners even richer, there are the issues of complexity, maintenance, reliability, running costs etc.

In addition, there has been the opening of a battery farm, on the outskirts of Hull, the farm occupies the equivalent of two football pitches, and can provide just 1% of national demand for four minutes.

If wind output dropped to zero for a day, to provide the necessary demand, would require a battery farm occupying the equivalent of 72000 football pitches, nearly 200 sq miles. An area, that would include Leeds, Bradford, Otley, Dewsbury and Wakefield.

No wonder landowners love ruinables!

Those battery farms, and flywheel farms, aren’t just to take up the slack in null wind days, they also help to smooth the variability of ruinables output.

This all adds extra cost, complexity, reliability issues, and of course, they all add an extra load on the grid.

It’s absolute madness, perhaps someone should explain to the gov’t the acronym KISS.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  bobpjones
January 11, 2023 10:08 am

Plus unreliable developers are now being told it can take up to 15 years for them to be connected to the UK National Grid because the Grid infrastructure has been unable to develop as fast as the unreliables are coming on stream. In its latest round of funding for the regional electricity network companies Ofgem has allocated £23 billion rather than the £25 billion they asked for.

Reply to  Dave Andrews
January 11, 2023 4:01 pm
Amlyn
January 11, 2023 4:40 am

The renewables fraction f, of course, reaches its maximum fmax where hourly demand His equal to N.”

I don’t think that’s right – hourly demand H should equal N times the capacity factor R. The equations then give you fmax = 1 which is only telling you something about the assumptions made.

This doesn’t invalidate the real drawbacks with wind, such as the fact that no matter how many windmills you build, you still need backup power systems for when the wind doesn’t blow!

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Amlyn
January 11, 2023 10:48 am

No. N is equal to f H / R. Therefore, H is equal to N R / f.

Reply to  Amlyn
January 11, 2023 11:24 pm

Yes, i set up the equation in Excel exactly as written and substituted real world values. It was going great until the last two steps. Hopefully someone has done it, got valid numbers and posts.

Ian_e
January 11, 2023 5:34 am

Well, as Sajid Javid would say, “So what?”

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Ian_e
January 11, 2023 10:49 am

The significance of Mr Pollock’s result is explained in the head posting, which Ian_e may care to get someone to read to him.

MaroonedMaroon
January 11, 2023 6:30 am

The Final Nail in The Coffin Of “Renewable” Energy will have been driven when government subsidy checks fail to clear.

Reply to  MaroonedMaroon
January 11, 2023 11:31 pm

China and Germany are doing some “clawing back”.

January 11, 2023 6:49 am

Hopefully, some “net zero” sponsors will recognize natural gas as the ultimate, clean burning “renewable”, at least in a “transition phase”.

January 11, 2023 7:25 am

Christopher—

It is important to keep in mind that the term “nameplate ratings” for PV and wind turbines is at best sloppy simplistic thinking. Taking the number of modules in a PV system and multiplying by the “nameplate rating” will not tell you how much power or energy you might get out of your system, it’s not even close. They should instead be viewed as maximum ratings, numbers that are necessary for calculating safety factors in system designs.

Where do these numbers for PV come from, you might ask? Good question.

For PV, the module rating is the power (along with voltage and current) at “standard” conditions, which are:

1000 W/m2 total solar irradiance
25°C solar cell temperature (not air temperature!)
A standard solar spectral irradiance curve

What is important to take away here is that the solar conditions represent cloudless skies with low aerosol scattering—I can tell you that it is really hard to hit 1000 W/m2 in the UK. They are closer to what you might expect in the SW of America.

As for the temperature, when you put a module in sunlight, it gets hot. A module outdoors almost never operates at 25°C when the sun is out, instead it will be 20, 30, 40°C above 25°C. The efficiency is strongly temperature-dependent, so output power drops in actual use.

Current through a PV module is highly dependent on the spectral irradiance which varies Constantine throughout the day and the seasons, but the standard curve is really just a single point in time. It can’t represent wherever you have decided to put your system.

The orientation has huge effects, whenever the sun is not normal to the module surface, cosine losses reduce output. Shading is another huge problem.

Getting a capacity factor from what is on the back of a PV module is just about useless, it can’t tell you much of anything about your particular location.

Savvy PV system designers of course are aware of these things (although they don’t really talk about them)—they end up needing extra modules in the design to bring the output up to what they contract to deliver.

I’ve never a big proponent of using these so-called yield factors with PV, they are inadequate. Mr. Pollock’s calculation is a demonstration of this.

Richard Greene
Reply to  karlomonte
January 11, 2023 9:37 am

Windmill average about 14 hours a day with little or no output
No output if the blades ice up, at least not until they are defrosted with optional blade heaters (using other sources of electricity).

Solar panels at best have an annual average 6 hours of high output a day, and that’s with no clouds, usually from about 10am to 4pm, There is also an annual average about six hours a day with low output — three hours before, and three hours after, the approximate 10 am to 4pm period. Even lower in those six hours the sky is cloudy. No output if the solar panels are covered with snow

Reliability and power on demand are the key objectives of an electric grid.
Solar panels and bird and bat shredders belong in museums.

Reply to  Richard Greene
January 11, 2023 11:03 am

Solar panels and bird and bat shredders belong in museums.

Overly broad—there are applications where PV performs very well, especially off-grid. There are communication relay stations located north of the Arctic Circle that are 100% PV-powered. The modules are oriented nearly vertical and a large lead-acid battery powers everything through the long arctic winter.

Reply to  It doesnot add up
January 12, 2023 5:48 am

Note the one that looks like a merry-go-round, it can collect power from any azimuth when the sun does not set. To work, the system would need multiple power conditioning units so that the modules facing away from the sun don’t cause the entire system to shut down.

Reply to  karlomonte
January 13, 2023 12:03 pm

It might have been simpler to have it rotate to face the sun like a radar antenna, albeit keeping the mechanism functional in Alaska might present challenges.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  karlomonte
January 11, 2023 10:54 am

Fortunately, we have academics here in the UK who are perfectly able to calculate the mean UK-wide capacity factor for solar panels, and also for onshore wind power, and also for offshore wind power. Mr Pollock’s result does not in any way depend upon knowing what the capacity factor actually is. It merely demonstrates that, whatever that capacity factor is, that is the fundamental limit on the fraction of total grid generation that is, in the real world, contributable by the renewable (or for that matter thermal) source in question.

Combine the academics’ research with Mr Pollock’s result and you will be able to see the impossibility of relying significantly upon unreliables for power in the absence of static battery backup.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 11, 2023 12:25 pm

Whenever I see the phrase “nameplate rating”, I get triggered.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 11, 2023 11:39 pm

And the 2023 price for grid scale battery storage is $500 kW.h, forever too expensive beyond four (4) hours of storage.

Reply to  karlomonte
January 11, 2023 3:28 pm

The data are perfectly usable so long as you get actually reported generation for given nominal capacity. I think that Sheffield University does a good job with estimating solar output in the UK (and they publish their uncertainty bands too). Peak solar output is recorded as 9.89GW out of an age adjusted capacity of 13.1GW, reflecting the factors you mention plus some effects of geographical dispersion (e.g. differences in haziness on a cloudless day between coast, inland etc.)

Sunnyportal has data of varying quality across many different sites around the world. On smaller installations it is not uncommon to find gaps of months awaiting a new inverter, which is often left out of calculations.

Reply to  karlomonte
January 11, 2023 8:51 pm

As for the temperature, when you put a module in sunlight, it gets hot. A module outdoors almost never operates at 25°C when the sun is out, instead it will be 20, 30, 40°C above 25°C. The efficiency is strongly temperature-dependent, so output power drops in actual use.”

Yes!
While solar cell/arrays themselves deteriorate faster.

Reply to  ATheoK
January 12, 2023 5:45 am

Module power at “standard conditions” (AKA “kWp”) is a really dumb metric, it was never intended for use in yield calculations. Instead it is for comparing efficiency of different devices from different manufacturers and fabrication techniques. Because efficiency varies with so many factors, a standard condition was necessary.

Jonathan
January 11, 2023 7:25 am

I hate to be the skunk at the picnic, but I believe the analysis, as I follow it, is incorrect. Various wind/solar proponents argue that we should overbuild wind and solar capacity, then use the “surplus” generation to produce “green” hydrogen. Ignoring the costs of doing so, if N > C, then Mr. Pollock’scalculation fails. Having said that, however, overbuilding does nothing for the periods during which there is no wind/sun. Hence, the battery capacity required to ensure reliability for such a period does not change. If I am missing something, perhaps Lord Monckton or one of the commenters can clarify.

Reply to  Jonathan
January 11, 2023 7:32 am

The hydrogen still has to be transported and stored.

Richard Greene
Reply to  karlomonte
January 11, 2023 9:38 am

And not through pipelines designed for methane.

chadb
Reply to  Jonathan
January 11, 2023 9:50 am

Hydrogen is a terrible solution. There are many times it flat doesn’t work, and it is explosive and corrosive. Just say no to hydrogen.
When I ran these calculations I found the lowest cost for a net-zero grid (about 30% higher than today’s cost, nowhere close to Germany’s nonsense) did the following:
Maintain all existing nuclear
Install wind & solar to 60-80% of generation (not capacity) depending on grid
Ran natural gas combined cycle for the rest
Install a very small amount of storage to manage largest summer peaks
Run direct air capture over the year to offset any CO2 released by NGCC

Alternative model (assuming next gen nuclear was low cost)
Exact same as above, but install nuclear to hit 60-80% of generation

For ERCOT you do everything except the direct air capture based on cost only. That is, at $3.50.mmBTU you install as much wind and solar as you can just to avoid fuel cost. However, you don’t waste money on direct air capture. That led to ~80% zero emissions in ERCOT driven entirely by cost considerations. Beyond that costs started rising again as you overbuild wind (much less overbuild of solar) and run direct air capture.

In no scenarios was hydrogen a cost effective option. The problem is if you want to generate hydrogen with “surplus” electricity you end up installing insanely expensive electrolysis equipment that is only used a few hundred hours a year at most. Complete waste of capital. You would be much better off spreading out direct air capture in order to run a peaker.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Jonathan
January 11, 2023 10:58 am

In response to Jonathan, the head posting (if only people would read them before rather than after commenting) makes it plain that in the absence of static-battery backup the capacity factor of an energy source is equal to the maximum fraction of total grid generation contributable by that source.

It is not difficult to work out, having read that in the head posting, that soi-disant “green” hydrogen would act in such a system in a fashion functionally similar to a static battery. The cost, like that of static battery backup, would be enormous; the risks, including risks to life, would be substantial, and, at present, the costly infrastructure that would be required does not exist.

In no way, then, does the theoretical possibility of generating “green” hydrogen from surplus unreliables generation impugn Douglas Pollock’s fascinating result.

Reply to  Jonathan
January 11, 2023 9:33 pm

Various wind/solar proponents argue that we should overbuild wind and solar capacity, then use the “surplus” generation to produce “green” hydrogen.

Having said that, however, overbuilding does nothing for the periods during which there is no wind/sun. Hence, the battery capacity required to ensure reliability for such a period does not change”

What battery capacity? The big battery that might support the grid’s demand for 6 minutes? 6 minutes, tops.

There are rumors of large batteries that can support an office complex for a brief time, But, no glowing reviews, e.g., ‘The mystery battery kept our building lights, computers, internet, water and heating/cooling running for days perfectly.’

None of the batteries extant are capable of supplying sufficient inertia to restart or stabilize a grid.

kmefo1
January 11, 2023 8:05 am

I am in complete agreement with the thrust and general content of this article. However….the following statement appears to be incorrect. “As a direct result of this fatuity, Britain now suffers the costliest electricity prices in the world.” A few fast checks show that Germany holds this dubious distinction (in Europe at least). Attention to this kind of detail is, I think, quite important – lest the remaining content of the article then becomes subject to accusations of discredence.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  kmefo1
January 11, 2023 11:00 am

Actually, the most recent cost comparison I have seen, which has also been reported in the less untrustworthy media here, is that UK electricity is now the costliest in the world. If it is not quite the costliest in the world, that is a quibble that does not in any way undermine or impugn Mr Pollock’s important result.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 11, 2023 3:45 pm

We spent the summer and autumn exporting electricity to France, where prices were higher on account of their capacity shortages arising from nuclear maintenance. When it turned cold in Dunkelflaute our own capacity shortage was revealed and we paid top prices for imports to keep the lights on.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 12, 2023 10:01 am

Prices actually realised by wind generation are much higher than the media propaganda tell us.

comment image

The chart is based on the data for actual CFD generation by wind farm and strike price, and actual production at each band of ROCs otherwise, with ROC values as reported by OFGEM for cashout plus recycle value, and day ahead market prices as measured by the hourly Intermediate Market Reference Price used to calculate CFD payments (in practice the APX average traded price for each hour). The December 2022 data are incomplete, awaiting reconciled settlement data.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  It doesnot add up
January 13, 2023 1:11 am

Most grateful for that fascinating chart. And to think that the electricity from our nicely-amortized but now destroyed coal-fired power stations was just £20 per MWh.

January 11, 2023 8:38 am

He had been looking at nations such as Britain,

huge mistake. britain has no talent.
lost it all in the 50s.

stupid morons gave hong kong back to china

DavsS
Reply to  Steven Mosher
January 11, 2023 9:59 am

Perhaps only a stupid moron would think there was any feasible way for Britain to retain the rump of Hong Kong once the New Territories reverted to China.

Reply to  DavsS
January 11, 2023 2:07 pm

Davs, Mosh is many things. A moron is not among them.

Like Mosh, I thought the people of Hong Kong should have gone to the Brits and said “We want to stay British” and the Brits should have backed them. I thought that was very foolish of Britain. Yes it was a “Treaty requirement”, but considering how many treaties have been broken by the Great Powers throughout history … so what?

w.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  Steven Mosher
January 11, 2023 10:10 am

It was a Treaty requirement.

Reply to  Steven Mosher
January 11, 2023 1:47 pm

Seriously mosh…

Why continue to display your deliberate ignorance?

January 11, 2023 8:46 am

However, as Professor Michaux’ 1000-page paper of 2021 for the Finnish geological survey has established, there are nothing like enough techno-metals to provide battery backup of the entire grid worldwide.

page count = truth

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Steven Mosher
January 11, 2023 11:02 am

It is always a good sign when Mr Mosher does one of his drivel-by postings. It means the usual suspects are worried by the head posting. And with good reason. I doubt whether Mr Mosher has either attempted to read any of Professor Michaux’s research, still less to discuss it with the Professor himself, before taking his characteristically uninformed and cheap shot. But then, Mr Mosher is paid not to allow the truth to emerge, which he finds difficult given that he is entirely incapable of distinguishing that which is true from that which is not. He is out of his league here.

Reply to  Steven Mosher
January 11, 2023 3:51 pm

Professor Michaux has reported that a number of vehement critics have attacked his work but not one has been able to refute the data or the calculations.

You could of course speculate that he has just lied.

You could speculate that there are actually oodles and oodles of easily recoverable metals that have just not yet been tripped over by unobservant hikers.

January 11, 2023 8:49 am

go long vandium!!

  1. the worlds going renewable.
  2. the marginal supplier of FF, russia, will be offline for 30 years, after this winter freezes pipes in siberia.
  3. peak Oil hits early and hurts

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1312490/vanadium-production-volume-worldwide-by-country/

Mr.
Reply to  Steven Mosher
January 11, 2023 10:06 am

I did go long on “vandium”

I stuck an “a” in between the “n” and the “d”, which made the word longer, but didn’t do anything for its futures prospects.

Reply to  Steven Mosher
January 11, 2023 2:00 pm

Mosh has been going long on Valium !

His brain is nearly 100% in a state of non-functionality.

Boff Doff
January 11, 2023 8:49 am

The whole point of “Nut Zero” is to confine hoi polloi to riff raff ghettos thus allowing the Davos Elite a much more pleasant environment in which to enjoy their wealth.

It’s well on track to achieve that objective so Monckton’s Law is not validated here.

Jackdaw
January 11, 2023 8:51 am

No, no, no. You don’t understand. The answer is to build even more windmills. We must cover the country in them. I say this is jest, but it seems our politicians, from both sides of the House, seem to believe this is the answer. More is better!

chadb
January 11, 2023 9:05 am

You should always be careful with proclamations of what is impossible. Last year the solar+wind electricity production in ERCOT was 30% of total production (generation, not capacity). Of that 25% was wind, 5% solar. According to the EIA the solar capacity is set to triple over the next couple of years. That will push ERCOT to 30-35GW of solar. Check out ERCOT and find a summer day when the demand was below 35 GW. Additionally there is another 5GW of wind planned.
Given that the highest penetration periods for solar+wind were night time (high wind, low demand, no solar) we should expect solar+wind in ERCOT to hit 45% by 2025. I have said for a while that I expect solar+wind to easily pass 40% and likely drive to 60% in ERCOT. It looks like that 60% penetration may happen by 2030.
I’m not a net-zero fanatic. However, I think 60-70% annual generation by renewables is possible (and economically viable) in some areas on some grids (with ERCOT likely to be the king in that regard). The biggest problem with areas like Australia and UK is that they have done dumb stuff to force their grids toward renewables. ERCOT has achieved similar results without demanding action, and has done it with lower than average electricity costs. I genuinely expect MISO and SPP to achieve similar results. Given poorer wind resources I don’t expect the same from southeast or Florida. I also expect PJM to move slow since they are bound and determined to continue shoveling money at existing plants. Other areas in the Northeast will just screw up their grids like Europe.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  chadb
January 11, 2023 11:07 am

You should always be careful with fatuous, ill-considered generalizations. ERCOT, the Electricity Reliability Council of Texas (the clue is in the name) is in Texas, which, the last time I was there, had a whole lot more sunshine than the UK. In the UK, the renewables fraction is about 25% and, faced with the Pollock limit, cannot much exceed 25% of total grid generation however many additional bat-blenders and bird-fryers are added. In Texas, the weather is such that the capacity factor of solar power is very considerably larger than that in the UK.

chadb
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 11, 2023 12:21 pm

Capacity of wind is also higher in Texas than UK. Wind is the biggest issue in the comparison since it makes up 25% of the 30% from wind+solar on ERCOT.
ERCOT is by far my favorite grid. It has world class solar, world class wind, some of the cheapest coal in the world (from Wyoming), and the world’s cheapest natural gas. Everything gets to compete at its absolute best. Top that off, it is a large grid (more people than Australia), mostly isolated (out of sync with any other grids). The biggest drawback is that it has no hydro (which should be used to balance the grid). If it seems like I am generalizing ERCOT that is my mistake. ERCOT is absolutely fantastic and cannot be generalized to anywhere else. It is a special case, and effectively the baseline for everything (again, except hydro).
The western grid should be able to perform as well as ERCOT if considered together (great solar in Arizona, great wind in Wyoming, and they have great hydro in the northwest), but can’t meet ERCOT on price, and are slowly losing on CO2/MWh. That is largely due to inability to adequately manage transmission buildout (think CREZ) because they have to align multiple state agencies and the Feds.
I love the comparison because it says the market structure in Texas completely outclasses that of the highly regulated California centered west.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  chadb
January 11, 2023 2:53 pm

On all of the above, I agree with chadb. But on whether it is sensible to install unreliables in excess of the Pollock limit, with the wastage, cost and lack of grid stability that that entails, we shall have to differ.

Reply to  chadb
January 12, 2023 11:38 am

You state, “…60-70% annual generation by renewables is possible (and economically viable) in some areas on some grids (with ERCOT likely to be the king in that regard).”

At 40% CF for wind, and 25% CF solar that would average out to 65%. But what about a week of rainy, calm, cloudy weather? The storage cost for even a mere 100 hours of storage ruins your “economically viable”. What about that week of stiff breezes, clear sky and moderate temperature? How much will you spend on curtailment? Battery storage at $500 kwh is not an option (neither is $200 kwh). 1000 mw (typical conventional powerplant) *100 hours * $500,000 per mWh = $50,000,000,000 ($50 billion).Pretty soon you’re talking about real money,

Reply to  chadb
January 12, 2023 8:09 pm

Texas electricity is cheap because their near 60% natural generation is cheap, not because their 30% wind and 5% wind are so great. What would the electricity price be if all the capital poured into W&S had instead been spent on 66% CCGT? (and the $multibillions for HVAC to transport wind generated electricity from distant west Texas to Houston/Dallas)?

January 11, 2023 9:14 am

There’s too much invested in so-called renewables and net zero. Neither is going away soon. It’s going to take many well-publicized failures before things change.

Right now, stories that don’t fit the narrative are just kept from the public eye. The public has to know the stories are there and actively search for them.

Dreher
January 11, 2023 9:25 am

Where can I find original papers from Douglas Pollock?

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Dreher
January 11, 2023 11:09 am

Mr Pollock is submitting his paper to a leading journal. If the paper passes scrutiny (and so far nothing in the comments here succeeds in impugning it) it will in due course be published in the usual way, whereupon I shall see to it that readers here are informed.

Gary Pearse
January 11, 2023 9:41 am

Vanadium in any serious quantity would be a byproduct of platinum group metals produced from the Bushvelt and potentially the 500km long Great Dyke in Zimbabwe (I believe these two deposits are genetically related, although I haven’t seen such a connection reported).

They might have to go lead acid. There is 20 million tonnes or so of lead in ICE cars the Net Z mummies want to abolish. Going with exotic metals is just another ‘sociological engineers’ conceit. Maybe experts like Niaomi Oreskes can be a help with this.

Reply to  Gary Pearse
January 12, 2023 12:01 am

Grid scale storage is too expensive even if the batteries were free. The site prep, labor, enclosures, switch gear, overcurrent protection, fire suppression and more costs at least $200kW.h of the $500kW.h total packet price. It’s forever too expensive beyond four (4) hours of storage. Give it up.

John Hultquist
January 11, 2023 10:14 am

air-source heat pump

These are fine in the right circumstances — that (apparently) few living quarters in the UK and Europe have. Single family homes in the US built in the last 20 years with good insulation and under-floor ductwork are good candidates.
This is true of solar also. Special niche situations. That’s a different story.

Beta Blocker
Reply to  John Hultquist
January 11, 2023 12:12 pm

When we moved into our current house fifteen years ago, we replaced the original heat pump, then on its last legs, with a new one for a cost of $9,000. The quoted price for an equivalent replacement is now approximately $25,000. We will keep the current one until it can no longer be repaired if it malfunctions.

January 11, 2023 10:23 am

The major maxim that nut zero advocate ignore is the engineering maxim that states “do not replace anything that works well with an alternative that has not yet been proven to work at least as well UNDER ALL CONDITIONS.”

chadb
Reply to  slowroll
January 11, 2023 11:11 am

By that maxim we never should have traded rail or horses for automobiles. Rail can work in several feet of snow, horses work far better off road.
The real trade off is whether the positives outweigh the negatives. The net-zero crowd would argue that the positive of net-zero outweighs the negative of occasional blackouts and higher prices. I would disagree, but that is the real question. The net-zero advocate would argue that the cost is lower than sometimes presented (i.e. the “business as usual” crowd does not properly account for avoided fuel costs), and that the grid can be as reliable as today (especially with grid expansion).

Reply to  chadb
January 11, 2023 11:27 am

I think you are stretching a bit here. Otherwise known as picking the fly shit out of the pepper. Unless of course you forgot the /sarc tag.

chadb
Reply to  slowroll
January 11, 2023 12:32 pm

Actually my problem is that your maxim is the maxim that the FDA uses when considering new drugs. If a new drug is going to be approved it must meet or exceed efficacy of existing drugs. That prevents new drugs from entering the market if their claim is “it’s only 80% as effective, but it still works in 80% of cases and only costs 5% as much as the current drug.” That is, “this can be a first pass and treat most patients and save boatloads of money” isn’t sufficient if the drug isn’t also at least as effective.
I will frequently pick solutions that are less effective because they work better for me. That is, my car is not the best, but it works pretty well, and I don’t want to foot the bill for a vehicle that “works at least as well UNDER ALL CONDITIONS.” The reality is we don’t want to pay for that on the grid either. Nuclear has a 98% up time. I don’t want to pay for NGCT that can boast a 98% up time. It would be far cheaper to go with 90% up time and overbuild by 10%.
Actual application now:
Let’s say I own a NGCC plant in Texas (Yes Monckton, ERCOT). The current price of natural gas is ~3.80/mmBTU. Let’s assume I owned a piece of land next to my NGCC plant. If I build out a solar farm on that land I am going to pay a good chunk of money for it. Let’s assume I don’t build any other resources, all I do is plug it in to my existing grid connection and when the sun is shining I power down the NGCC plant. Over 10 years the money I save on fuel is more than the money I spent on the solar plant. To be fair, the same would not be true in Pennsylvania, Washington, UK, or Germany. But it would be in Florida, Spain, and Italy. In these locations the solar will not work as well under all conditions, and I have shelled out money for capital that is 100% backed up with Natural Gas. However, at the end of 10 years I have more money in my pocket than if I simply ran the NGCC.
That is why solar is going in to the tune of 20GW in Texas. In the UK (to Monckton’s point) it is going in because morons in power say “if it works in Australia and Texas it will work here.”

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  chadb
January 11, 2023 12:29 pm

chadb continues to miss the point of Mr Pollock’s research, which is that the fraction of total grid generation delivered by a generating species cannot exceed the capacity factor of that species. Waffling about positives and negatives has nothing to do with. Mr Pollock’s result is a proven result.

chadb
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 11, 2023 12:54 pm

I read through the equations again, and there was a problem nagging at me, but I finally figured it out.
Let’s imagine any grid in the world. It is going to operate somewhere between 30-50% capacity (i.e. peak demand will be 2-3x average demand). Now let’s install one giant load following unit. Think of a large diesel generator on an island. The diesel generator will have a capacity factor equal to the average capacity factor of the island. In this case you have a capacity factor of 30-50% for your generator, but 100% penetration. Clearly Douglas is wrong because his equations don’t require that the sources be renewable. Consider Norway for fun – it is a 90% renewable grid where the renewables operate at ~30% capacity factor. The grid generation by the load follower obviously exceeds the capacity factor for the species.

Where is the mistake? Douglas assumes
1) There is no overbuild of renewable capacity
2) Renewable generation is normally distributed (not the case, especially obvious for the diurnal cycle of solar)
3) The annual demand can be approximated by a flat line
If demand is correlated with generation (i.e. more demand during day than night), or if overbuild is feasible (then curtail excess generation), or if generation is dispatchable (not the case for wind/solar, but is the case for other renewables) then the underlying assumptions fall apart.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  chadb
January 11, 2023 3:27 pm

Chadb is still not getting the point. He says there are three mistakes, none of which is a mistake.

1) Mr Pollock does not assume there is no overbuild of renewable capacity: he calculates the fundamental limit above which any further build will be overbuild.

2) Mr Pollock makes no assumption that any species of generation is uniform throughout the day.

3) Mr Pollock makes no assumption that the annual demand will be uniform for each hour of the year.

His equations are silent on all these three points.

Chadb goes on to give the following purported conditions under which he says Mr Pollock’s equations do not hold. Chadb is, however, incorrect on all three points.

First, where generation is matched to demand. That condition self-evidently does not apply to unreliables, where generation is dictated by the vagaries of the weather, which are not under the control either of the generator or of the grid operator.

Secondly, where “overbuild is feasible”. That condition self-evidently does not apply to Mr Pollock’s result, which is silent on whether overbuild is either feasible or desirable. The Pollock limit merely reveals the point beyond which overbuild will inevitably occur.

Thirdly, where generation is dispatchable. That condition self-evidently dose noit apply to unreliables, and it does not apply to Mr Pollock’s equations, which are directed at wind and solar generation, which is not dispatchable.

Reply to  chadb
January 11, 2023 5:30 pm

Bingo!

Reply to  chadb
January 12, 2023 8:39 pm

You’ve changed the subject from unreliable wind and solar to dispatchable diesel generation. Any chance that might be a logical fallacy, presenting irrelevant information in an attempt to distract from the topic being discussed?

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  slowroll
January 11, 2023 11:12 am

Amen to that!

TBeholder
January 11, 2023 11:47 am

Monckton’s Law, which states that any attempt by governments to interfere in the free market in pursuit of some political objective or another will tend to bring about a result that is precisely the opposite of that which was – however piously – intended.

It’s just a specific case of Conquest’s 3rd Law of Politics: «The simplest way to explain the behavior of any bureaucratic organization is to assume that it is controlled by a cabal of its enemies.»
But of course, even that is but a corollary to Parkinson’s Laws, in this case «[In any bureaucratic organization] Work expands to fill the time available for its completion». Obviously, any assigned task without an explicit time limit at all must grow indefinitely, creating ever more work to do. It can never be “finished”.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  TBeholder
January 11, 2023 3:28 pm

No: Monckton’s Law is a law of economics. I gave a lecture on it once at St Andrews University, using climate change policy as one of a dozen examples.

Editor
January 11, 2023 11:49 am

As much as I respect and enjoy Christopher Monckton contributions to climate science, those who read my work know that I’m a data guy.

So after reading his post above saying that that the share of renewables in electrical generation couldn’t exceed their capacity factor, I went to Our World In Data to get the data on the shares of electrical generation by country and fuel. Here are the results for wind for the top twenty countries.

comment image

And here are the results for solar.

comment image

Not sure how to interpret these results. It’s not because the capacity factor is high in those countries, I checked that.

All suggestions gladly accepted.

w.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 11, 2023 12:26 pm

Capacity factors are higher for solar in sunny countries and higher for wind in windy countries. I have been to the Falkland Islands, for instance, and they are reliably and quite steadily windy – ideal for wind generation. Even there, though, the wind-power capacity factor is half of nameplate, so the Pollock limit (which is not, repeat not, calculated as a global average but on a territory-by-territory basis) is 50%.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 11, 2023 1:36 pm

Thanks, Christopher.

I can’t find the 2021 capacity factor for the Falklands. However, in 2016 there was 2.32 MW of wind capacity, generating 9 GHW of electricity. This gives a capacity factor of 0.44, well below the claimed 50% …

However, the Falkland numbers are confusing because there are over 100 individual small windmills powering individual houses, some of which have their own battery. It’s unclear if, how many, and where they are counted either in capacity or generation. Also, the main system contains batteries.

I also looked at the capacity factor for wind in Ireland. It’s just about the global average, 0.255 … but the claim at least is that wind is providing ~30% of electricity.

And the capacity factor for Denmark is 0.26, but the claim is the wind is providing ~48% of the electricity.

I couldn’t find the wind installed capacity for the other top-tier countries.

As I said in my comment, “It’s not because the capacity factor is high in those countries, I checked that.”

Be clear that I’m not questioning the underlying math. I’m just trying to understand the reasons for the exceptions to that math.

w.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 11, 2023 3:03 pm

There are several reasons why grids can sometimes generate in excess of the Pollock limit. The first is the simplest. Until now, governments and grid operators simply didn’t know about the Pollock limit, so some of them (Britain egregious among them) have installed more unreliables capacity than the limit mandates, and are paying hefty capacity payments (also known as constraint payments, curtailment payments or, in the trade, capacity payments) to unreliables generators to switch off at times of high wind and sun and low demand.

Or, as in the Falklands, where most households live remotely, they have battery backup to store any surplus. That could on its own take the apparent wind capacity factor from 44% to 50%

Likewise, one would need to examine the detailed wind profile across the year in question to see whether the capacity factor for that year had risen because the wind was closer to optimal than normal. In Texas, for instance, where they keep good data, in the past six years the wind capacity factor has fluctuated from about 32 to 43%.

Like Willis, I am a data man, but I am also a theoretician. When an irrefutable theoretical argument is presented and the data appear inconsistent with the conclusion of that theoretical argument, I tend to suspect the data.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 12, 2023 5:54 am

Yet on this graph, Spain, with the most sunlight in Europe, has a “solar percentage” of 10%, dead last.

This graph is not “capacity factor”.

Reply to  karlomonte
January 12, 2023 11:01 am

karlo, you say “This graph is not “capacity factor”.”

You are 100% correct. That’s why the title of the graph says “Percentage Of Electricity From Solar”, and not “Capacity Factor”.

w.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 12, 2023 12:37 pm

Willis, the inset box says “Average Solar Capacity Factor”, so I’m still confused.

Reply to  karlomonte
January 12, 2023 1:56 pm

Sorry for the confusion. Christopher compared share of generation with capacity factor. I’m doing the same. The graph is share of generation. The dotted line is the average capacity factor.

Regards,

w.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 12, 2023 3:11 pm

Thnx Willis.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 11, 2023 12:31 pm

Willis—consider the PV operating temperatures. Also “Percentage of Electricity from Solar” and “Solar Percentage” does not square with the “Average Solar Capacity Factor”. To me these seem like two different quantities.

Reply to  karlomonte
January 12, 2023 11:09 am

karlo, they are indeed different quantities. Christopher Monckton says that the % of electricity from e.g. solar CANNOT exceed the capacity factor. My graph, which contains both, shows that’s simply not true.

As a result of people noting that, Christopher has moved the goalposts. Now, without admitting that his original claim was wrong, his new claim is that installing renewables in excess of the capacity factor is wasteful and useless.

That may indeed be true, and I suspect it is. However, it’s also much more difficult to support or disprove.

w.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 12, 2023 8:56 pm

You state, “Christopher has moved the goalposts. Now, without admitting that his original claim was wrong, his new claim is that installing renewables in excess of the capacity factor is wasteful and useless
.
See below, you may have missed this:

Monckton quote from the original posting:

What Douglas Pollock’s brilliant and, at first blush, unexpected result means is that the miserably low capacity factor R is in fact also the fundamental limit fmax on the contribution that unreliable can make to the grid without prohibitively expensive and logistically unachievable large-scale static-battery backup.

Sounds like “wasteful and useless” to me.

Reply to  Dennis Gerald Sandberg
January 12, 2023 9:32 pm

Dennis, check my graphic. Ireland has a 25.5% capacity factor for wind and no battery storage, but produces over 30% of its electricity from wind. How? I have no idea. I’m just reporting the facts.

As to Christopher’s claim, you seem to have missed this:

In plain English, the maximum possible fraction of total grid generation contributable by unreliables turns out to be equal to the average fraction of the nameplate capacity of those reliables that is realistically achievable under real-world conditions.

Nothing about battery backup, and in fact, Ireland has none.

Best regards,

w.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 13, 2023 1:17 am

Willis Eschenback appears to have missed the very large section of the head posting devoted to battery backup. To say “nothing about battery backup” is not a legitimate description of the head posting.

And his example from Ireland is within the error margin for generating capacity. In a good year for wind – wind stronger than usual but not too strong, and steadier than usual – the capacity factor for wind may exceed the long-run capacity factor, though usually by a smallish margin, such as 5%.

But none of that alters Douglas Pollock’s result.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 13, 2023 8:40 am

Christopher, your “plain English” statement of the underlying claim says nothing about batteries, and the fact that you discuss them in other contexts elsewhere doesn’t change that. But that’s a minor point, and my own writing is never 100% clear.

As for Ireland, I fear your claim that exceeding the “Pollock limit” is simply due to changes in the wind regime and involve exceeding it by “a smallish margin, such as 5%” runs hard aground on the facts … here is the Irish record.

comment image

Ireland exceeded your “Pollock limit” in 2018, is continuing to rise, and is most recently 23.5% above that “limit”.

This is why I trust data over theory …

My best wishes to you and yours,

w.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 13, 2023 11:03 am

And now much of the Irish generation is being wasted, with consequent capacity payments?

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 13, 2023 7:50 am

Couldn’t that 5% above the CF simply come from overbuilding? A very common result at high grid penetration rates.

chadb
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 11, 2023 1:58 pm

Denmark is well tied in with neighbors. They can trade off their surplus wind and import from Norway and France. Also, do you know if the Percentage of Electricity from wind is local generation or of total demand? One reason I like ERCOT is due to its isolation. Denmark trades so much electricity (almost 50%) that it is really hard to know what is being plotted there. I suspect it is the total of electricity generated in the country.
For the solar capacity – the generation cycle matches diurnal demand variation. If your demand is higher in daytime than night time (which it is) then solar can exceed its capacity factor without storage offsets.

Reply to  chadb
January 13, 2023 8:05 am

Denmark has at least three integrated renewable systems “species”. My understanding is that each would have to be considered and calculated individually for Pollock to be valid. I don’t have a clue how that would be done but based on your comments you might be able to if so inclined. Way beyond my reach.

Editor
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 11, 2023 2:02 pm

The error is in “the minimum installed nameplate capacity C of renewables that would be required to meet the hourly demand H is equal to H/ R”. Places can install more than the minimum, ie. more than “C“. The real formula then depends on the profile of the intermittent energy – things like the proportion of the time that it is near zero.

In the Falklands, the wind ‘never’ stops. Your chart shows 50% for wind generation. They wouldn’t have to go much above “C” to achieve that

I understand that Denmark pays Norway to take excess wind power and use it to pump water uphill. Denmark then buys hydro power from Norway. So they would also appear to be well above “C“.

chadb
Reply to  Mike Jonas
January 11, 2023 2:54 pm

The other factor is that he treats the demand profile as flat, that is he models the entire annual power strip as a constant H ignoring daily and seasonal variations. If solar generation and demand both increase during the daytime (they do) then solar can outstrip this equation without overbuild.

Editor
Reply to  chadb
January 11, 2023 4:15 pm

Really all you are doing there is looking at H differently. Whatever H you apply, provided you don’t make it dependent on supply in any way (some analyses do do that) then the same formulae apply. But the formulae given in this article are IMHO incorrect.

Editor
Reply to  Mike Jonas
January 11, 2023 4:41 pm

Apologies, I didn’t get that comment complete. It only addresses a bit of the error. A much more important part is in “The renewables fraction f, of course, reaches its maximum fmax where hourly demand H is equal to N.”. H is demand and N is nameplate capacity, so it actually reaches its maximum (100%) when H = f N, not when H = N. The analysis is therefore completely incorrect. You can understand that this is so, because if you were at a place with completely constant wind (the Falklands in Spades) then installing enough capacity to meet maximum demand would give you >=100% of demand 24/7.

The correct formula here is entirely about intermittency. If z is the proportion of the time that generation is near zero, then fmax = 1-z. (f is defined as the fraction of total grid generation actually contributed by renewables; fmax is the theoretical maximum possible value of f). That formula is itself over-optimistic, because with any highly variable energy source, costs are likely to go through the roof long before one gets anywhere near fmax.

And that is why solar energy is the worst of the lot over the full year. However, you also need to bear in mind that the formula fmax = 1-z applies over every time period. Therefore, in any extended still period (as occurs in a typical cold British winter) fmax is very low indeed – just when demand is at its highest.

Editor
Reply to  Mike Jonas
January 11, 2023 4:42 pm

The last sentence applied to wind.

Reply to  Mike Jonas
January 12, 2023 12:46 am

You state, “That formula is itself over-optimistic, because with any highly variable energy source, costs are likely to go through the roof long before one gets anywhere near fmax.
And that is why solar energy is the worst of the lot over the full year”.
Chadb, suggests 26% curtailment in a grid design. But the economics would be horrific. Solar generators here in California get paid average annual kW.h price to curtail midday during moderate temperature Spring and Fall weather ($millions). I know, I have roof top solar, and get credited for $0.32kW.h, when the fair market value is closer to $0.03kW.h. It’s insane, and it’s the only reason I have solar. I hope one of you math majors will put some real-world numbers into the formula proving or disproving it.
when I tried, I made a mistake, or there’s a slight error as written in the text.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Mike Jonas
January 12, 2023 6:25 am

With respect, Mr Jonas is incorrect. N is not nameplate capacity simpliciter. It is the minimum nameplate capacity N < C of renewables required to generate the fraction f of total grid generation actually contributed by renewables – the renewables fraction – is equal to f C, which is also f H / R. Recall that the the minimum installed nameplate capacity C of renewables that would be required to meet the hourly demand H is equal to H / R, for R the average fraction of nameplate capacity actually generated by renewables – their mean capacity factor.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 12, 2023 10:11 pm

Thanks, Christopher.

Upon much cogitation, I think the problem lies in the following statement:

Let R be the average fraction of nameplate capacity actually generated by renewables – their mean capacity factor.

Let’s assume a location where the offshore wind is relatively constant. Let’s further assume the location has lots of surface coal we can mine very cheaply.

We install enough offshore wind turbines to meet the total demand. However, because offshore turbines are costly to install and maintain, and because we want to guarantee power even if the turbine cable to the shore goes out, we decide to also install enough coal-fired plants to meet the total demand.

When they are installed, we choose to get about half the power from coal, and half from the wind. That guarantees that we’ll always have power, whether or not the coal or the wind are operating.

Now … what are the capacity factors R of the coal and the wind?

Well, the capacity factor of each one is about 50%. Each one is putting out about half of the nameplate capacity, they’re both just running at half throttle. When one dies or has to go down for maintenance, the other one can take up the total load.

And therein lies the problem. The capacity factor R is not fixed. It is calculated, based on how much of the nameplate capacity is actually used. And this is a choice, not a fixed value. In my example, we could just as easily choose to get 3/4 or 1/4 of the load from the coal plants, totally changing the capacity factors.

This is clear in the EIA numbers I posted elsewhere in this thread:

2021 US Capacity Factors

Coal: 49.1%
Gas—Combined Cycle: 55.0%
Gas—Gas Turbine: 11.7%
Gas—Steam Turbine: 12.5%
Gas—Internal Combustion: 18.2%
Geothermal: 69.8%
Hydroelectric: 36.0%
Nuclear: 92.7%
Biomass: 63.2%
Solar—Photovoltaic: 24.4%
Solar—Thermal: 20.5%
Wind: 34.4%
Wood: 59.9%

The fact that US renewable hydroelectric power only has a capacity factor of 36% is NOT a function of the technology. It’s a result of the choices we’ve made in the mix of electricity sources. In Norway, for example, the hydro capacity factor is 44%, much higher than in the US.

But in your calculations, you’ve assumed that R is some fixed unchanging number …

My best to you,

w.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 13, 2023 1:27 am

Willis makes a good point that the definition of “capacity factor” needs to be very carefully made. It ought to be – but seems not to be – obvious that “capacity factor” in the head posting is the mean fraction of total generation contributed by, say, wind power without requiring battery backup to store any surplus, which would otherwise go to waste. After all, the whole point of the article is to show that above the Pollock limit surplus generation will have to go to battery backup. The obvious – and, therefore, unstated – corollary is that without battery backup the surplus generation would have to be suppressed by costly capacity payments. The Pollock limit provide a very simple method of assessing the point – already passed in the UK, for instance, beyond which installing more wind and solar power will not reduce grid emissions without battery backup.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 13, 2023 12:47 pm

Actually hydro capacity factors are usually determined by the projected availability of water upstream and the economics of installing more turbines. Figures in the 30s are quite common.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 11, 2023 4:13 pm

The Falklands is a good case as an isolated grid (but subject to the issues you note of private generators). However, I suspect the reality is the grid supplies Stanley and nearby areas, but other settlements and isolated farmsteads are probably not grid connected.

Denmark is not a good case. It is a connection hub between Germany, Norway, Sweden and the Netherlands. It can dump its wind surpluses on its neighbours much of the time, while calling on them for backup when the wind stops. That allows much more wind than if they had to curtail.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 11, 2023 4:14 pm

I don’t know about the the “average … capacity factor” at any of those particular places (which most likely vary from place to place with each country), but the claims of this essay are based on the average capacity factor of a given place, not the average across many places.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  AndyHce
January 12, 2023 6:27 am

No, the head posting makes no claims based on the average capacity factor of the UK. That was merely taken as an example of the problem.

Graham
January 11, 2023 12:08 pm

What is it with politicians all over the free world?
Heavy industry and manufacturing need affordable energy to produce goods and pay good salaries to compete with Asian countries .
Producing goods in Europe would actually reduce emissions with far less shipping and if these dimwits have a problem with coal why are they not prioritizing the planing and building of Nuclear power stations .
Why do these numb skulls in charge wreck their countries economies trying to go nut zero when it will make not one iota to world wide emissions .
Emissions are still increasing because China and other Asian countries are using billions of tonnes of coal more now than in past years .
World coal use was steady at 4.7 billion tonnes for ten years up to 2008 but coal use has now exceeded 8 billion tonnes in 2018 and 2021.
Why can’t politicians and voters in western countries wake up to see the futility of chasing zero carbon ?
We have the same madness here in New Zealand .
The majority of our electricity is generated by hydro with some geothermal and wind.
Fortunately our hydro stations can be used as back up for the wind turning hydro stations on and off as required .
You would think New Zealands emissions would be low by world standards .
They are untill politicians become involved and tell us that our farmed livestock are producing methane and nitrous oxide .
It is estimated that New Zealand produces food to feed 40 million people around the world from a country of 5 million.
The question that no one will answer is why do our methane emissions not get exported with the food ?
Imported fossil fuel emissions are counted in the country where they are used .
Why are food exports different ?

Reply to  Graham
January 11, 2023 4:17 pm

We have to de-industrialize western civilization in order to save the world (and be the last ones fed to the crocodiles)!

Beta Blocker
January 11, 2023 1:14 pm

Valerie Gardner, founder and co-Managing Partner of Nucleation Capital, an investment firm focused on nuclear energy projects, notes in an article on the Atomic Insights blog that the use of the term “renewables” rather than the term “clean energy” often has the effect of excluding consideration of nuclear power in a zero-carbon energy discussion.

Enough with “renewables!”
December 31, 2022 By Valerie Gardner
https://atomicinsights.com/enough-with-renewables/#comments

Some of the blog’s readers took the article’s title to mean that Valerie Gardner was criticizing the adoption of wind and solar as the primary future means of producing “clean energy” as opposed to new-build nuclear. 

This was not her intent, certainly. But a few long-time participants on the Atomic Insights blog took the opportunity to make some pointed comments about how wind power is now being promoted inside and outside of government. To wit:

——————————————–

Brian Mays said:

Both the EIA and the International Energy Agency (IEA) have become less transparent in the statistics that they publish.

Fifteen years ago, the websites of these organizations were my go-to source for analyzing, understanding, and explaining how energy is generated and used in the US and throughout the world. Since then, their websites have become more convoluted and difficult to navigate. Instead of providing easy options to access the actual data, they tend to steer the user to their reports, which more and more read like a sales pitch or political propaganda than an honest assessment that allows the reader to draw his or her own conclusions.

You can still find the actual numbers, if you work hard enough, but it has become much more difficult than it used to be. This is what happens when energy becomes more and more politicized and special interests become more powerful.

Ed Leaver said in response to Brian Mays:   

I disagree, Brian. Perhaps you can find EIA’s actual numbers, but I sure can’t. And believe me, I’ve tried. .

Started with an attempt to compare EIA’s Levelized Cost of Energy values with those from other sources. No joy.

First, what is LCOE?

NREL knows what LCOE is, and gives a formula.

Lazard knows what LCOE is, and gives a slightly different (equally justifiable) formula.

EIA claims to know what LCOE is: it’s buried deep within their NEMS model.

NREL even has an online LCOE calculator. NREL can’t tell you what to put into it, but if you happen to know, they will cheerfully compute you an LCOE. So will your pocket calculator.

At this point I bit the bullet, swallowed my pride, and began looking into Lazard. In addition to an actual formula, Lazard also tabulated reasonably current inputs. Applied unequally in their tabulated results of course, but at least one can see what they are doing.

That was all eighteen months ago. I hope to revisit that LCOE morass someday and finish my article.

But wait! There’s more!!

Last night when I should have had better things to do, I came across an early (first?) Robert Bryce subredit Siemens Power CEO Confirms the Iron Law of Power Density. There Mr. Bryce provides a “Tons of material per TWh” graphic, with values taken from Table 10.4 (page 390) of EIA’s Quadrennial Technology Review 2015.

Fascinating metric, “Tons of material per TWh”. One supposes that if one could estimate tons of steel and concrete per MW installed capacity, and could estimate a plant’s capacity factor, and it’s projected lifetime, then one could indeed ballpark “Tons of material per TWh”. And if one were suitably intrigued, one could go to EIA’s reference 52 to look for them.

Of course, EIA’s reference 52 is to yet another of their black-box modelling programs, this time GREET — The Greenhouse gases, Regulated Emissions, and Energy use in Technologies Model — with no further explanation whatsoever about what GREET does or how it was used to address this particular problem.

Sigh. Well, I might not be Engineer-Poet. But I’m still not totally bereft of resources:

Metal And Concrete Inputs For Several Nuclear Power Plants, Peterson et al. 2005.

Concrete Towers for Onshore and Offshore Wind Farms, Gifford, The Concrete Center, 2012.

Then from Peterson’s paper I’d estimate 204,500 m^3 concrete and 70,900 MT (metric tons) steel for an EPR. Using concrete density 2.4 MT/m^3, 90% Cf, and 60 year plant life I’d get 650 MT concrete and 94 MT steel per TWh for EPR, or 744 total “Tonnes of material per TWh” or 818 “Tons material per TWh”.

EIA GREET claims 920 tons material per TWh for nuclear, only 12% high. But they don’t show their work.

Similarly for wind, using Gifford’s 2012 values for 2.5 MW onshore wind turbine of 460 tons metal and 3100 tons concrete, and assuming 25 yr plant life and 40% capacity factor, then including stem and nacelle one finds 2100 tons metal and 14,155 tons concrete per TWh, or 16,255 total tons material per TWh.

EIA GREET claims 1800 tons steel and 8,000 tons concrete per TWH for “Wind”, or 9,800 total tons material per TWh. But they don’t say which wind, where, its alleged capacity factor, or assumed plant lifetime and whatever recycling. They don’t say.

They don’t show their work.

Richard Lentz said in response to Ed Leaver  

I have never found any mention anywhere on EIA or NREL indicating the fact that Wind turbines use ten to fifteen percent of “generated power,” annually, taken from a source other than the Output of the generator to maintain the WT in a state of readiness to generate power.

They ignore this power consumption as it is indicated on a different power meter. Thus, all of their “calculations” do not consider this in their glowing reports of the “efficiency” of these power hogs. When 15% of the annual generated power is put on a separate accounting sheet for a device that only has a 30 to 50% annual Capacity factor that means they are actually only achieving a 15 to 35 % capacity factor.

Even a search for “How much power does a wind turbine use.” mostly finds answers of how much it Generates.

Here are a few things to consider: [Note: this is not a complete list.]

  • Yaw mechanism (to keep the blade assembly perpendicular to the wind; — the nacelle (turbine housing) and blades together weigh 92 tons on a GE 1.5-MW turbine.
  • Blade-pitch control (to keep the rotors spinning at a regular rate).
  • Charge batteries needed to meet OSHA & FAA regulations and critical control equipment.
  • Power for lights, FAA Lighting, controllers, communication, sensors, metering, data collection, communications of the data to the Dispatcher and all of the control mechanisms, etc.
  • Heating. defrosting and deicing the blades — this may require 10%-20% of the turbine’s nominal (rated) power.
  • Heating, cooling, and dehumidifying the nacelle.
  • Oil heater, pump, cooler, and filtering system in gearbox
  • Hydraulic brake (to lock the blades in very high wind).
  • Thyristors (to graduate the connection and disconnection between generator and grid) — 1%-2% of the energy passing through is lost.
  • Magnetizing the stator — the stator may use power equal to 10% of the turbine’s rated capacity, in slower winds possibly much more.
  • Using the generator as a motor (to help the blades start to turn when the wind speed is low)

The use of this power generates heat which adds to the required cooling for the nacelle in the summer months.

(End of Atomic Insight article comments)

——————————————–

OK ……

What is not being said by anyone of real prominence in the nuclear industry is that the impacts of wind & solar on the future price of electricity will certainly be one of the major factors making the relatively high upfront capital costs of nuclear more acceptable in the power generation marketplace.

My warning to all nuclear power advocates on that score would be this:

A strategy of depending upon future increases in the price of electricity in order to make nuclear competitive with natural gas — as opposed to pursuing diligent, rigorous, and tightly-focused efforts at keeping nuclear’s capital costs under control — would be a major mistake, one which could prove fatal to a 2020’s nuclear renaissance in America.

Reply to  Beta Blocker
January 13, 2023 7:20 am

If there is one wind turbine anywhere in the world that meter’s electricity delivered to the turbine, I’ve somehow missed it despite several lengthy searches. Truly a closely guarded secret. One paper, a decade ago, by a graduate student in Minnesota came up with an estimate equal to 8% of annual output.

Reply to  Beta Blocker
January 13, 2023 7:37 am
  • You state:
  • Using the generator as a motor (to help the blades start to turn when the wind speed is low)

I drove by a wind turbine almost every day for a couple months and noticed that it rotated at an optimum speed when the wind was essentially nonexistent. It’s not just to help “the blades start to turn”, it’s to keep them spinning. Some writers have suggested it’s done to protect the main shaft bearings from the stress of the heavy propeller if left static, others have suggested It’s to avoid warping of the blades from differential heating by the sun. The lack of transparency is criminal, considering that these turbines wouldn’t exist without taxpayer funding.

Editor
January 11, 2023 1:20 pm

I understand why Britain’s workers are going on strike, and they have got it right. All power to them. If they crash Britain’s economy they will only be doing quickly what Britain’s energy disaster would do slowly. Which means that it can be fixed sooner. Britain needs a Liz Truss back now, to get fracking going as fast as possible and bring down energy prices, but it’s already a bit too late. Thanks to the Tory cabal that installed the hypocritical Rishi Sunak and the Labour cabal that seeks power only for itself (pun intended), the British public will not be getting a reasonable political choice any time soon. Not that they ever chose Carrie Johnson or Rishi Sunak.

Go for it, British strikers! Learn from the Canadian truckers, and go hard before the government makes all strikes illegal.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Mike Jonas
January 11, 2023 3:07 pm

Amen to all that! The Sunak government has become as strikingly isolated from the needs and concerns of its voters as it is isolated from the elementary science that demonstrates what nonsense the climate scam is. Britain is now closer to outright bankruptcy and societal collapse than at any time in my long life. This is trahison des clercs on an epic scale.

Roger Sowell
January 11, 2023 1:23 pm

Interesting claims and calculations, but the good folks in Iowa (USA) would find this amusing. In Iowa, the annual capacity factor for wind turbines in 2021 was 34.1%, while wind generation provided 56.84% of annual electricity sold.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Roger Sowell
January 12, 2023 6:31 am

Mr Sowell has misunderstood the head posting. The algebra set out there shows why it is that if unreliables provide more electricity than the Pollock limit they will do so wastefully, expensively and destabilizingly.

Beta Blocker
Reply to  Roger Sowell
January 12, 2023 9:07 am

Roger, correct me if I’m wrong, but six years ago (or thereabouts) when you were still a resident of California, you said that there should be no problem for California to reach 70% renewable-generated electricity by the year 2030.

CEO Anthony Early of PG&E was saying the same thing at the time when announcing that Diablo Canyon would be permanently closed by 2025. As an ardent anti-nuclear activist, you strongly defended PG&E’s decision.

My assumption has always been that the 70% figure for 2030 should be based on gigawatt-hours of electricity consumed within the state of California, using power generated from wind & solar resources located both inside and outside the state’s borders.

Six years ago, I asked if there was a comprehensive plan of action for California which described at a proper level of detail just how California could reach the 70% by 2030 target.

There was no response to my question because no such plan existed. Six years later, the situation is the same. California has nothing in the way of a credible plan of action for reaching the state’s 2030 goal.

It is now the year 2022 and President Biden has announced his goal of Net Zero for electricity generation by the year 2035, and Net Zero for the entire US economy by 2050. The effect is to compress a hundred years of technical and administrative evolution of the energy market between 1920 and 2020 into a time span of less than thirty years.

This is a daunting challenge, to say the least. As such, the Biden Administration owes the nation a credible plan of action for the Net Zero transition. So far, nothing in the way of a credible plan of action for reaching Biden’s Net Zero goals has been produced.

My question to you is this: Why have the climate activists and the advocates of wind & solar not pressed the Biden Administration for a credible plan of action which demonstrates, in an appropriate level of detail, just how exactly their Net Zero goals can be achieved?

Reply to  Beta Blocker
January 13, 2023 8:29 am
  • Democrats aren’t into that. They know it’s BS, and they know their voter base is clueless, so it doesn’t matter. BTW Diablo Canyon is being extended, Also, the Regulators are requesting an end to crediting new roof top solar buyers average annual retail price ($0.32kW.h) for surplus electricity delivered to the grid and instead paying $0.08 kW.h so some reality is setting in. We’ll see if the state assembly let’s it happen.
Reply to  Roger Sowell
January 13, 2023 8:16 am

Iowa is dumping their surplus wind on Illinois. They can absorb it without destroying their ratepayers because of their gigantic long serving nuclear capacity. I’m surprised Iowa is only at 34.1% CF. I’ve had wind aficionados claiming it’s 40%.

January 11, 2023 2:06 pm

True, on some days wind can generate about two-thirds of Britain’s electricity.”
This is only during the low demand part of the year where people and businesses are not heating their premises, as well as following the decimation of UK industry, so it’s not that impressive.

observa
January 11, 2023 2:55 pm

No no you forgot about the solar on top of the wind and the law of averages-
https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-australia-hits-stunning-new-high-in-race-to-renewables-only-grid/
Soon with all that VRE penetration and its negative pricing they’ll be paying us to use the power instead of the 40.7c/kWhr for 14 hours of the day now.

Reply to  observa
January 11, 2023 4:17 pm

I thought they were considering charging for exports of domestic solar surpluses.

observa
Reply to  It doesnot add up
January 11, 2023 7:36 pm

They are for the obvious to economic literates but here’s the rub for the NEM grid at 2 pm in the arvo in South Australia-
https://www.aemo.com.au/Energy-systems/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-NEM/Data-NEM/Data-Dashboard-NEM
Checking the fuel mix tab solar is running at 24% with total fossil fuels at 66% because highly correlated wind is only 3% across most of Oz and that’s what these average numpties never get. It’s the marginals stoopids!

observa
Reply to  observa
January 11, 2023 7:47 pm

PS: Bearing in mind if you hit the Renewable Penetration tab it highlights the maxm renewable penetration was 68.7% at 18882MW at 12.30 on Frid 28th Oct 2022. Whoopee idiots!

CD in Wisconsin
January 11, 2023 3:36 pm

“Nut zero, then, is a striking instance of Monckton’s Law, which states that any attempt by governments to interfere in the free market in pursuit of some political objective or another will tend to bring about a result that is precisely the opposite of that which was – however piously – intended.”

******

Or, as I like to say, to err is human, but to really screw things up requires government central planning.

argon laser
January 11, 2023 3:46 pm

Simple and beautiful! Love it.
Could the good Lord Monckton have a word with Minister Ryan in Ireland, who is proposing something like 10GW of wind (and a few GW of solar to boot on our notoriously rainy island), and where average demand is 4GW. The genius Ryan has simply decided to label any excess wind as “oversupply”, and so in the electricity market’s eyes, it never existed.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  argon laser
January 12, 2023 6:33 am

Most grateful to argon laser for his comments. The first step now is for Douglas Pollock to submit his paper to a leading journal for peer review. If it passes review and is published, then I can certainly intervene with Ministers to invite them to be more cautious in building windmills.

Climate Heretic
January 11, 2023 4:23 pm

Two countries are at the forefront of MSR, China which has built and testing a MSR [1] and Indonesia is in the design or constructing of a much substantial MSR [2].

China and Indonesia’s TMSR-500 are not the only two countries that are building or designing MSR’s.. There are at least 17 other countries that are in involved in the design or research of MSR’s [3][4].
So what’s the future in the energy sector? It goes something like this

a) Fossil fuels will eventually run out say, 100, 150 or even 500 years.
b) ITER and Tokamak type fusion reactors are failed technology, the following are reasons why:

i) How do you get the fuel in?
ii) How do you get the waste out?
iii) How do you get the energy out?
iv) How do you do i, ii & iii while the fusion reactor is still running?

c) Nuclear PWR have many cons, ie; safety, fuel efficiency, nuclear waste and cost to build.
d) The only answer to the above PWR problems are, Molten Salt Reactors (MSR).

i) They are inherently safe, no water needed and low pressure
ii) Fuel efficiency is 3% for PWR as compared with virtually 100% for MSR
iii) Abundance of fuel is 3 (Thorium) times greater than Uranium
iv) Enough fuel to last 1000s of years. If Thorium breeder reactors then 100s of 1,000 years
v) Nuclear waste is minimal, 300 years as compared with 10,000+ years
vi) Can provide society with all the fossil fuels needed /sarc

Molten Salt Reactors means several types and in addition these MSR’s will still be cheaper than the existing PWR’s or LWR’s, because they will not have the pressurised components. In addition, MSR’s have numerous other benefits as well.

Regardless of whether the MSR’s exist or not at the present stage, they will be built and MSR’s designs are vapourware? Absolutely wrong, Oak Ridge National Laboratories built one in the 60’s and produced heat. If heat is produced then electricity can be generated from this heat.

It will take time and it will happen for MSR to come into being and they present to society or humanity a paradigm shift in the use of energy. Just like the industrial revolution went from wood to coal. Society will suffer pains as it transitions to the new energy source.

Renewables will not cut it for the current civilisation and fossil fuels will run out. The only viable alternative is MSR’s. Those who want provide snarky comments about MSR’s. I know where I’m placing my money on.

Regards
Climate Heretic

[1] https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/Articles/Chinese-molten-salt-reactor-cleared-for-start-up
[2] https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2022/01/174503.html
[3] https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/11/17-countries-cooperating-on-molten-salt.html
[4] https://aris.iaea.org/sites/MSR.html

Reply to  Climate Heretic
January 13, 2023 8:41 am

Agree that MSR is critical, but not without challenges. As you know molten salt is corrosive. Do you have any insights?

Proposing molten salt reactors as the energy answer is exciting, much better than the current effort to replace “fossil fuels” with sunshine and breezes.
 MSR technology via Bill Gates’ first commercial operation is supposedly to debut prior to 2030. I hope so.  Accelerated testing methods of the corrosion resistant materials required will have had to have satisfied regulators much less investors. Such testing over a 5 or more likely 10-year period seems necessary to find the “best” materials but the “best” materials need to last 40 years to be commercial. I see comments about “cladding” for MSR corrosion resistance, but I suspect there’s patent protection issues that will discourage cooperation and extend timeframes.
 The best hope we have for phasing in nuclear technology from 2030-2040 is NuScale’s small scale modular reactors, while molten salt fast neutron reactors are being perfected IMHO. I’m not by any stretch a expert, just a seriously interested old man who wants to see the beginning of the new generation nuclear renaissance before I kick off!
copy
TerraPower will run tests with depleted uranium, which is not used in fission, to determine which materials can hold molten salt without being damaged by corrosion
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333245378_Status_of_Metallic_Structural_Materials_for_Molten_Salt_Reactors
2018:
Hastelloy N has not been qualified for use in nuclear construction, and significant additional characterization would be required for Code qualification. …
… It is recommended that a systematic development program be initiated to develop new nickel alloys that contain a fine, stable dispersion of intermetallic particles to trap helium at the interface between the matrix and particle, and with increased solid-solution strengthening from addition of refractory elements.
With support from computational materials science tools, a speculative time frame for a down-selection program, using 20-30 kg heats, is about four to five years….

ferdberple
January 11, 2023 6:40 pm

“What Douglas Pollock’s brilliant and, at first blush, unexpected result means is that the miserably low capacity factor R is in fact also the fundamental limit fmax on the contribution that unreliable can make to the grid without prohibitively expensive and logistically unachievable large-scale static-battery backup.”
============
I also find the results unexpected.

Imagine covering the earth with solar panels in parallel and a grid consisting of 1 light bulb.

Each panel would have an average capacity factor of say 33% but you could keep 1 light bulb lit 100% of the time. In this case the “effective” capacity factor is 100%

This suggests to me that the Pollock Limit is true but needs to consider effective capacity factor instead of average. Otherwise all looks good.

We’ll done!!

QODTMWTD
January 11, 2023 6:48 pm

Just as electric vehicles are the gateway to no vehicles at all, the unreliables are the gateway to no energy at all. They’re not intended to work. They’re not intended to be practical. They’re intended to let things limp along until traditional sources of energy are decommissioned, dismantled, and destroyed beyond recall. Then it will suddenly be discovered that the unreliables are problematic and the joyless proles will just have to shiver in the dark.

colin_chambers
January 11, 2023 7:19 pm

What is wrong with the following example, which produces an f > R?
Call Nf the renewable nameplate fraction being generated. Over 5 hours Nf is 1, 0.75, 0.5, 0.25, 0 respectively for each hour.
Average Nf for the period of 5 hours is 2.5/5 = 0.5.
So for this period R = 0.5.
H is constant over the 5 hours.
Install renewable nameplate capacity 4H.
Then for first four hours at least H is generated. For first three hours excess generation is thrown away. For last hour zero renewable power is generated.
Then total grid generation including non renewable over period of 5 hours is 5H.
Renewable generation is 4H.
f = 0.8 > R (=0.5)

colin_chambers
Reply to  colin_chambers
January 12, 2023 3:06 am

Should clarify that Nf is the renewable nameplate capacity fraction actually being generated.

colin_chambers
Reply to  colin_chambers
January 12, 2023 3:30 am

Should maybe also say that renewable power being generated at any time is installed renewable capacity (4H) times Nf at that time.

So for five-hour period the renewable power being generated is 1x4H, 0.75x4H, 0.5x4H, 0.25x4H, 0x4H for each hour respectively, i.e. 4H, 3H, 2H, H, 0 respectively for each hour.

Renewable generation in excess of H is thrown away. So actual renewable contribution to grid for each hour is H, H, H, H, 0 respectively for each hour. So total renewable generation over period is 4H.

colin_chambers
Reply to  colin_chambers
January 12, 2023 4:24 am

Also I said “H is constant over the 5 hours”. I should have said “Demand is constant at H over the 5 hours” (so it is always at the average value).

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  colin_chambers
January 12, 2023 6:37 am

Mr Chambers has failed to understand the head posting. The Pollock limit is the maximum fraction of total grid output generated by unreliables without throwing electricity wastefully away.

colin_chambers
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 12, 2023 9:27 am

I had looked in the head posting for a constraint that renewables generating excess power over demand is prohibited but didn’t find it. I’ve just looked again and still didn’t find it.

Call this the no-waste constraint.

Suppose

   the no-waste constraint applies
   the mean grid demand is H
   the minimum grid demand is Hmin
   the renewable installed nameplate capacity is N
   the average fraction of nameplate capacity
       actually generated by renewables is R

N <= Hmin must be true, as otherwise there is the possibility that the wind is blowing or the sun is shining when demand is less than instantaneous renewables output and the no-waste constraint is broken.

The average renewables output is NR.

The average renewables fraction of total output f = NR/H.

N <= Hmin implies f <= Hmin.R/H.

The Pollock limit is R, so the no-waste constraint actually implies a limit Hmin.R/H which is lower than the Pollock limit (assuming Hmin < H which is true if demand is not constant).

—————————————-

Is the no-waste constraint realistic?

It is not realistic if either (A) it is considered acceptable to discard excess output generation from renewables or (B) it is possible to throttle the output from renewable generators.

(A) is acceptable or not depending on how you want to evaluate the cost/benefit effects of adding more renewable generators to increase the fraction of grid generation produced by renewables. Personally I think the current effort to maximize this fraction is crazy and extremely harmful but I expect the people pushing this agenda and whom you want to convince would have no problem swallowing (A).

(B) is a technical issue. The throttle control might be coarse-grained (such as switching off a wind-turbine or a solar panel) or fine-grained (reducing power by some smaller fraction of available power). I’m not knowledgeable about such things but I would expect there is at least some level of coarse-grained control.

If the constraint is relaxed then the Hmin.R/H limit or the Pollock limit can easily be breached.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  colin_chambers
January 12, 2023 2:41 pm

Read the head posting again. The following appears, immediately after the calculations:

“What Douglas Pollock’s brilliant and, at first blush, unexpected result means is that the miserably low capacity factor R is in fact also the fundamental limit fmax on the contribution that unreliable can make to the grid without prohibitively expensive and logistically unachievable large-scale static-battery backup.”

This point is actually made twice in the article. If there were no battery backup, the excess generation would of course be expensively wasted.

colin_chambers
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 13, 2023 7:54 am

Thanks, yes, I read the parts excluding battery backup (for good reasons).

However, whether excess generation is considered to be wasted or not depends on how the costs/benefits are assessed. Excess generation combined with curtailment can be used to increase the renewables fraction of total grid output (“curtailment is the deliberate reduction in output below what could have been produced in order to balance energy supply and demand or due to transmission constraints ” – Wikipedia).

Examples of a case being made for exploitation of excess generation combined with curtailment (not saying I agree with doing this):

Curtailment of low-cost renewables a cost-effective alternative to ‘seasonal’ energy storage

Minnesota study finds it cheaper to curtail solar than to add storage

Overbuild solar: it’s getting so cheap curtailment won’t matter

Analysis of Energy Curtailment and Capacity Overinstallation to Maximize Wind Turbine Profit Considering Electricity Price–Wind Correlation

Study: Wind Power Curtailment More Cost-Efficient Than Storage

The Real Engineer
January 12, 2023 1:51 am

I think your conclusion is interesting Christopher, but is slightly flawed. If you add more windmills C also increases, but the conclusion must be that this is pretty much useless as it is intermittent.

On another point the cost of a grid scale battery with sufficient capacity is estimated at between £3 and £6 Trillion. It might last 15 years, but would be so dangerous that it would be very unwise to build it unless greatly distributed around the country. The capacity, 28.8 terawatt hours, 28,800 GWhrs. That is for the UK 40 GW grid capacity.
Bankruptcy is the obvious outcome for everyone and the Country. We would also need 160 GW more nameplate capacity of windmills, they would be everywhere!

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  The Real Engineer
January 12, 2023 6:42 am

No. C is carefully defined as the minimum installed nameplate capacity of renewables that would be required to meet the hourly demand H; C is equal to H / R, for R the average fraction of nameplate capacity actually generated by renewables (their mean capacity or load factor). Adding more unreliables does not, therefore, increase C.

January 12, 2023 2:36 am

Forget the maths, the wind doesnt blow above the ~15 knots a turbine needs more than 25% of the time on land.

Without storage, this will always be the limiting factor.

Reply to  zzebowa
January 12, 2023 6:13 am

You are correct; solar PV is only able to generate useful power about 25% of the time (which of course has been known for a long time). Adding extra generation to cover the other 75% will not work without storage, the excess above demand will just be wasted.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  zzebowa
January 12, 2023 6:45 am

25% is indeed the capacity factor for onshore wind in the UK. In countries with more or steadier wind or both, the capacity factor may be higher. But, as Mr Pollock has shown, whatever the capacity factor is for a particular species of unreliables or for a particular territory, that capacity factor is the Pollock limit. Any capacity installed beyond that limit will be wasteful, costly and destabilizing.

January 12, 2023 7:24 am

First, it is simple. Even a zitty teenager in high school can understand it.

My “zitty teenager” days ended (just under) 40 years ago, but I’m having problems with the details of the argument, and the rhetoric, used here.

Let H be the mean hourly demand met by a given electricity grid, in MWh/h. Let R be the average fraction of nameplate capacity actually generated by renewables – their mean capacity factor.

… the fraction f of total grid generation actually contributed by renewables – the renewables fraction …

OK, so for a given time period, one hour in the example used, then :

The average power output (in GW, say) of “renewables” (for that time period) = R
The “nameplate” capacity (in GW) of those “renewables”

and

The average power output (in GW) of “renewables” = f
The average “Demand” (in GW) of the entire grid

And that’s it. In plain English, the maximum possible fraction of total grid generation contributable by unreliables turns out to be equal to the average fraction of the nameplate capacity of those reliables that is realistically achievable under real-world conditions.

So if you calculate the f and R values for a series of (hourly) time periods, then it should be “impossible” to find a f value greater than R (/ a R value less than f) … Hmmmmmmmm …

One of my favourite science quotes :
“If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. In that simple statement, is the key to science. It doesn’t make any difference how beautiful your guess is. It doesn’t make any difference how smart you are, who made the guess, or what his name is. If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong. That’s all there is to it.” — Richard P. Feynman

Half-hourly data for the Great Britain electricity grid from the end of November 2022 to the beginning of January 2023, with “capacity factor” data from the ET 6.1 Excel file on the BEIS’s “Energy Trends: UK renewables” webpage (direct link, using “GB = England + Scotland + Wales”), is shown in the attached graph.

NB : In my graph “Nameplate f[raction] = NP_f = R” and “Demand f[raction] = Dem_f = f

The main claim, that “R >= f” effectively, appears to be incorrect (for “Wind in GB”, at least).

It is unclear whether this comes “directly” from Douglas Pollock’s original argument or CMOB’s “interpretation” of it.

GB-Electricity_Pollock-fractions-30min_241122-020123.png
Reply to  Mark BLR
January 12, 2023 7:31 am

To check if the “integration time” affected the results I did a similar set of calculations for the daily “sums” — in “GWh per day” rather than “average GW per 30-minute time period” — for the last 13 months and got the following graph.

Note that the minimum difference is around -3% to -4% (instead of down to around -15% for the 30-minute resolution data), and that for the period since 24/11/2022 only one day had a negative difference value (instead of the dozen or so “dips below zero” in the OP’s graph).

GB-Electricity_Pollock-fractions-daily_011221-311222.png
Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Mark BLR
January 12, 2023 2:34 pm

Mark BLR has made the same error as many others here. He has not noticed that I had written: “What Douglas Pollock’s brilliant and, at first blush, unexpected result means is that the miserably low capacity factor R is in fact also the fundamental limit fmax on the contribution that unreliable can make to the grid without prohibitively expensive and logistically unachievable large-scale static-battery backup.”

Without that backup, surplus generation is expensively wasted.

In periods of high wind, the capacity factor of wind turbines transiently increases, just as it falls to zero when there is no wind. One must, therefore, take the mean hourly demand over a sufficiently long period to be properly representative.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 13, 2023 9:25 am

I look forward to reading your articles here on WUWT, and usually agree with your (scientific) points of view, but in this case I fear you have “fallen in love with your theory”.

Mark BLR has made the same error as many others here.

You may need to take a step back and ask yourself exactly why so “many” of us have made (exactly ?) the same “error” after reading the ATL article.

What Douglas Pollock’s brilliant and, at first blush, unexpected result means is that the miserably low capacity factor R is in fact also the fundamental limit fmax on the contribution that unreliable can make to the grid without prohibitively expensive and logistically unachievable large-scale static-battery backup.

My personal focus is on the GB electricity grid.

Other people will focus on grids closer to home (Texas / ERCOT, California, South Australia, Germany, …) but to the best of my knowledge the GB grid doesn’t (yet) include any of that “large-scale static-battery backup” you mention.

Elements like the Minety (150 MW / 266 MWh) and Pillswood (98 MW / 196 MWh) batteries are sized (2 hours max) for “frequency stabilisation” functions, they are not suitable for “grid-scale backup” operations.

Without that backup, …

I repeat, to the best of my knowledge the GB grid doesn’t currently include any such “backup”.

Please provide links if my “assumptions” are incorrect.

… surplus generation is expensively wasted.

In my browser the “Ctrl-f” keyboard shortcut brings up a “Search in webpage …” box.

Entering “wasted” for this page revels that the word doesn’t appear at all in the ATL article, it can be found for the first time in a “Reply” you made (to user “chadb”) stating :

The Pollock limit means that all electricity generated during over-producing seasons by renewables exceeding the limit will be wasted.

– – – – –

Actual quotes from the ATL article follow.

In plain English, the maximum possible fraction of total grid generation contributable by unreliables turns out to be equal to the average fraction of the nameplate capacity of those reliables that is realistically achievable under real-world conditions.

My data for the GB grid shows that “R” values greater than 60% are “realistically achievable under real-world conditions” … without “battery backup” systems in place.

That means that wind and solar power cannot contribute more than about a quarter of total electricity demand on the grid, unless there is battery backup.

Again, the GB grid doesn’t include any such “battery backup”.

The ATL article clearly states that under those conditions wind (and solar) power “cannot” contribute “more than about a quarter of total electricity demand”.

My actual empirical data shows both 30-minute and 24-hour periods when “R” for the GB grid exceeds 60% … without “battery backup” systems in place.

– – – – –

After some thought, an alterative way of looking at the actual empirical data.

None of the “limits” to the f value mentioned in the ATL article are correct for the GB grid (at least).

GB-Electricity_Pollock-fractions_X-Y-plot.png
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 13, 2023 10:06 am

One must, therefore, take the mean hourly demand over a sufficiently long period to be properly representative.

Please quantify just how long that “sufficiently long period” needs to be.

Reply to  Mark BLR
January 13, 2023 9:54 pm

I’m confused by your confusion. Your focus on short time frames is inappropriate. See the following direct quote from the article per Monckton:

“True, on some days wind can generate about two-thirds of Britain’s electricity. But on average – a la larga, as they say in the casinos of Puerto Rico – the contribution of wind and solar is stuck at 25% of total grid generation.”

Reply to  Dennis Gerald Sandberg
January 14, 2023 2:39 am

True, on some days wind can generate about two-thirds of Britain’s electricity.

OK, mea culpa, I got so distracted by the “wind and solar power cannot contribute more than about a quarter of total electricity demand on the grid, unless there is battery backup” claim that I missed that.

In the post you replied to I was asking CMoB to quantify what “a sufficiently long period” meant, i.e. to provide an actual concrete number.

He has not replied (yet), but maybe you can provide the answer instead.

Does “a la larga” mean the Pollock limit (fmax = R) only applies for 1-month averages (and longer) ?

For 3-month (quarterly) averages ?

For 12-month (annual) averages ?

For some other “integration period” ? … One that is not specified in the ATL article

Editor
January 12, 2023 3:11 pm

I suspect that some of the confusion here regards just how the “capacity factor” is calculated. Here, from the EIA Electric Power Annual 2021, are the capacity factors of the major sources of US energy.

2021 US Capacity Factors

Coal: 49.1%
Gas—Combined Cycle: 55.0%
Gas—Gas Turbine: 11.7%
Gas—Steam Turbine: 12.5%
Gas—Internal Combustion: 18.2%
Geothermal: 69.8%
Hydroelectric: 36.0%
Nuclear: 92.7%
Biomass: 63.2%
Solar—Photovoltaic: 24.4%
Solar—Thermal: 20.5%
Wind: 34.4%
Wood: 59.9%

Nuclear is first, 92.7%, followed by geothermal, 69.8%.

Hmmm … I suspect that folks can see the issues …

w.

PS—I think grid-scale solar and wind are an expensive and tragic joke that has no place in modern generation. But that’s a separate question.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 12, 2023 6:35 pm

Regarding solar PV, there are two separate issues that cause low CF:

1—the artificially high standard max power rating that is disconnected from actual use conditions

2—any generation above demand which is wasted

#1 is constant

#2 increases as more PV is connected to a grid

Beta Blocker
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 12, 2023 8:42 pm

Prior to the 2020 election, some voices in the US nuclear industry were promoting a long-term power generation mix for America of one-third nuclear, one-third natural gas, and one-third wind & solar.

The theory behind this position was that nuclear would handle mostly continuous baseload demand; and that natural gas would deal with the daily and weekly ups and downs of wind & solar’s intermittency and relatively low capacity factors.

This position was in large part a reflection of the reality that public policy decision makers were forcing the adoption of wind & solar regardless of what the long term costs of that policy would entail, and that the damage wind and solar could inflict on the the grid could be minimized if its market penetration could be held to just one-third of the nation’s total generation capacity.

After the 2020 election, with climate activists now in full control of the government, the 1/3rd-1/3rd-1/3rd generation mix proposal has become untenable simply for the fact that the Biden Administration is bent on eliminating gas-fired generation altogether.

For the next two decades, we are all in for a wild ride as the process of Net Zero transition continues to gain momentum.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 12, 2023 8:43 pm

Thank you for the information. Yes, we can see the issues. It is unclear why politicians cannot.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 13, 2023 1:02 am

Willis is right that there are many definitions of “capacity factor”. In accordance with the usual scientific practice, therefore, the head posting states which definition it is using. For instance, “the average fraction of the nameplate capacity of … [un]reliables that is realistically achievable under real-world conditions“. That fraction will, of course, vary depending on average weather in each country, as previously explained.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 13, 2023 7:52 am

Thanks, Christopher. My problem with that definition is twofold. First, it’s not the usual definition, as we can see from the EIA figures.

Second, and more importantly, I have no idea how we’d measure your definition. The problem is the “realistically achievable” part of the definition. My example comparing Norwegian and US hydropower capacity factors in this thread highlights the issue. The difficulty is that in addition to varying based on the average weather in each country, what is “realistically achievable” depends on the choices of the folks managing the grid in each country, and which sources they choose to use at every instant …

Best regards,

w.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 13, 2023 10:47 am

Willis, your problem is with the EIA’s definition, whose bizarreness you have rightly highlighted. Douglas Pollock’s definition is much more widely used in the industry. And of course it is possible to determine the mean annual national capacity factor for, say wind power, by reference to meteorological records of wind speeds, and, increasingly, by hard experience. In Britain, the mean national capacity factor for wind power is about 25%; for offshore wind, more like 30%.

As previously discussed, there can be quite considerable variations either side of these values: but Douglas Pollock’s result – which is quite unexpected, and is simply not known among governments, grid operators or generators – is a very useful benchmark.

It tells us, for instance, that there is no point in adding any more wind or solar power to the UK grid, unless battery backup is added too, at crippling cost. For we have already installed capacity well in excess of the Pollock limit.

What is also remarkably useful about Douglas Pollock’s insight is that it is simple enough to be comprehensible. Reading some of the inspissate calculations done by some of the commenters shows the difficulty of not finding a simple benchmark to give grid operators some idea of how much (or, rather, how little) unreliables generation they can install without either battery backup or capacity payments, both of which are very costly.

Douglas has consulted very widely in the industry over recent years, and several of those whom he consulted had noticed that, after a certain point, their additional installations of wind and solar power were not increasing the fraction of total generation contributed by those species. But they did not know why. Now we know why.

Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 13, 2023 1:21 pm

Thanks as always, Christopher. I find the Pollock Limit to be a most fascinating insight.

And as with many such limits, what is of the most interest is why and how some places are able to exceed the limit.

That’s why I find Ireland to be an interesting case. Not only are they exceeding the Pollock Limit, but every year since exceeding it they’ve exceeded it even further.

Now, Ireland doesn’t pay wind farms for curtailments (over-production of more than the grid needs). But it does pay for constraints (more energy than the grid can transmit). Are these the reason that Ireland can exceed the Pollock Limit?

I don’t know. But it is exactly these kinds of cases that can either point to ways to exceed the limit or alternatively show that those ways are uneconomical.

There’s an interesting analysis of this Irish situation entitled “Value of demand flexibility for managing wind energy constraint and curtailment” … worth a read.

My thanks to you as always for raising interesting issues … and a gentle suggestion for you, that you treat those raising questions about your work with some modicum of respect …

Your friend as always,

w.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 14, 2023 3:28 am

Willis Eschenbach asks whether EirGrid, the Irish national grid authority, makes what the industry calls “capacity payments” to wind and solar generators to switch of at times of high wind, strong sun or low demand.

EirGrid has in the past made capacity payments, and still does so to some extent. Its preferred tactic, however, is simply to order the unreliables generators to shut down at their cost whenever necessary. In 2019 these compulsory shutdowns cost unreliables generators some $60 million, which, scaled up by UK/Irish population, would be $850 million – about treble the UK’s capacity payments in that year. See the picture?

The reason for these very heavy costs is that, in Ireland as in the UK, the Pollock limit has been exceeded. If the grid authorities had known about this limit, they would have been able to discourage the connection of still more costly and wasteful surplus unreliables capacity unless and until cripplingly expensive matching backup battery storage had been installed.

And if you want to preach, Willis, do it privately. By now, as an editor of this site, you ought to know that there are several climate-Communist commenters here, some of them paid, whose objective is to divert any argument that might prove fatal to the Party Line. There are several others who think they are good mathematicians or physicists who, in reality, lack the intuitive ability to comprehend theoretical results and will vent their frustration by often childish attacks on the authors of posts here.

I have no patience with these trolls. If commenters raise genuine questions and do so with reasonable politeness, I respond in kind, and kindly. If they play what in Yorkshire we call “silly-b*ggers” I do not take prisoners.

Likewise, I deal very firmly with those who, even after further explanation, deliberately misrepresent the head posting. For instance, several commenters have taken a single sentence from the head posting as suggesting (which is entirely fatuous if one thinks about it even for an instant) that I had said it was physically impossible to generate more wind or solar power than the respective national capacity limits.

Indeed, one commenter even went so far as to say I had said nothing at all about battery backup, even though at least a quarter of the head posting was devoted to it.

What is useful about these dicussions is that it shows how difficult it is to explain theoretical concepts, however elementary, even to those with a scientific background who are in reality unable to think conceptually. For not all of those who have misunderstood the head posting have done so wilfully. They have misunderstood it because, like most scientists, they do not have the kind of mind that is at ease going from the concrete to the abstract and back without getting lost.

Douglas Pollock, who has read and enjoyed the entire thread, has been able to make a few tweaks to his paper, particularly in definitions of terms, so that as far as possible any reviewer who may have the same blind spot when it comes to comprehending the underlying meaning of a sequence of abstract equations will be able to get the point, which I think you have now seen.

If Douglas’ result proves to be correct, then the next question is how much wind power backed up by static batteries will cost. We are quietly working with a geometallurgist of more than usual competence who has been studying that question for many years.

To ensure continuity of supply on the UK grid, for instance, one would need at least three months’ battery storage to cover the long and quite frequent solstitial periods when there is little or no wind. However, there are not enough known or foreseeable techno-metal reserves to make batteries on this scale.

Therefore, Douglas’ result means that nut zero is not only unnecessary but also unaffordable and unattainable.

Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 13, 2023 6:25 am

It is also useful to look at the ratio between average demand and peak demand. That provides an overall limit to the system capacity factor. Ifsome demands met by baseload generation at higher capacity factors the rest of the generation must necessarily operate at lower capacity factors. This feature coupled with undisparchable randomness us why wind and nuclear are effectively incompatible at higher ,every of either.

Beta Blocker
Reply to  It doesnot add up
January 13, 2023 9:08 am

It doesnot add up: “It is also useful to look at the ratio between average demand and peak demand. That provides an overall limit to the system capacity factor. If some demands met by baseload generation at higher capacity factors, the rest of the generation must necessarily operate at lower capacity factors. This feature coupled with undispatchable randomness us why wind and nuclear are effectively incompatible ……. .”

This is a key point — if a portion of total power demand is being met by one type of generation at higher capacity factors, then the remainder of the generation fleet must necessarily operate at lower capacity factors.

In a power marketplace where non-dispatchable wind & solar are being given priority access to the grid — and where there is little or nothing in the way of battery backup storage — those dispatchable resources still attached to the grid must bear the operational burdens and the cost burdens of dealing with wind and solar’s intermittency.

Nuclear generation and gas-fired generation are both dispatchable sources of electricity. But as things stand today, gas-fired generation is technically, operationally, and economically better at it than is the current generation of nuclear power plants.

From a technical and operational perspective, the oncoming small modular reactor (SMR) nuclear technologies are intended to be much more suitable as variable energy resources in coping with a power grid heavily penetrated by non-dispatchable wind and solar.

These SMRs will be sold to public policy decision makers and to utility executives as being ‘dispachable emission free resources (DEFRs)’ in NYISO parlance. The sales pitch will be that an SMR power plant will be much more capable than massive banks of batteries in reliably backing up wind & solar 24/7/365 in a variety of operational conditions.

But what about cost? Nuclear fuel is roughly ten percent of the cost of running a nuclear power plant. The bulk of the life-cycle cost of a nuclear plant lies in capital cost recovery, in plant maintenance, and in day-to-day plant operations which require the presence of well-trained and well-paid personnel to perform.

Those designing the oncoming SMRs are working to address all facets of the cost issues of nuclear, with primary focus on reducing capital costs. The other cost factors are also being worked on to some extent. But with nuclear, one can only go so far in addressing those other cost factors.

Will an SMR-based power plant be as effective as a gas-fired power plant in coping with wind & solar’s intermittency? I think the SMRs can be equally effective from a technical and an operational perspective. However, from a total lifecycle cost perspective, I don’t think the SMR’s could be as competitive in that role as gas-fired generation.

In the context that public policy decision makers want emission free electricity, the main advantage the oncoming SMRs have over gas-fired backup as a dispatchable variable energy resource is that these will be emission free. If it weren’t for the low-carbon and zero carbon mandates being pushed by America’s politicians, new-build nuclear would not be under consideration in the US. (Nor would wind and solar backed by batteries for that matter.)

Repeating what I’ve stated in earlier comments:

What is not being said by anyone of real prominence in the nuclear industry is that the impacts of wind & solar in driving up the future price of electricity will certainly be one of the major factors making the relatively high upfront capital costs of nuclear more acceptable in the power generation marketplace.

My warning to all nuclear power advocates on that score is this:

A strategy of depending upon future increases in the price of electricity in order to make nuclear competitive with natural gas — as opposed to pursuing diligent, rigorous, and tightly-focused efforts at keeping nuclear’s capital costs under control — would be a major mistake, one which could prove fatal to a 2020’s nuclear renaissance in America.

Reply to  Beta Blocker
January 13, 2023 10:08 am

My first back of envelope on SMRs considered two variables: the financing cost interest rate and average utilisation, producing a table of cost per MWh for the capital investment assuming a constant plant life. Whilst fuel cost and maintenance cost may show some variation with operating regime, it is relatively small beer in comparison. A grid load following 60% will multiply cost by at least 5/3. Providing wind infill while other generation provides baseload probably takes cost up by a factor of 3 or more.

Beta Blocker
Reply to  It doesnot add up
January 13, 2023 4:26 pm

That’s probably a good estimate as first back-of-the-envelope estimates go.

That said, the politicians and the climate activists who are pushing wind & solar backed by batteries don’t particularly care about the true costs of their Net Zero vision. At least they don’t care about wind & solar’s true costs.

The senior executives of most power utilities don’t care about wind & solar’s true costs either. Their job is to make a profit for their utility; and if they play the game smartly, they can use an ‘asset churn’ type of strategy in pursuing renewable projects in order to enhance the bottom line.

However, when it comes to nuclear, the attitudes of the politicians and the public policy decision makers are different. The attitudes of utility executives towards nuclear are different as well.

In theory, a future energy marketplace in which the price of electricity is two or three times higher than it is today ought to enable a much more friendly market environment where nuclear’s high upfront capital costs can be justified.

It won’t be nearly that simple for those promoting a specific nuclear project. The predicted capital and operational costs of any proposed nuclear construction project will come under exceptionally intense scrutiny. Especially so after the cost & schedule overrun debacles of the VC Summer and Vogtle 3 & 4 projects.

In contrast with what the promoters of wind and solar projects are now expected to produce as evidence for their cost & schedule projections, those who are promoting nuclear power must deliver cost & schedule estimates which are strongly backed by highly detailed, highly credible basis-of-estimate information and data.

More than that, the very first SMR construction project out of the gate here in the US must fully deliver on its cost & schedule commitments. And it must do so in every phase of the project from beginning to end. If the first SMR project in the US blows its cost & schedule estimate, the adverse consequences for the future of new-build nuclear power in the US will be severe.

At any rate, one way or another, the grand wind & solar experiment will be going forward here in America regardless of how accurate predictions of steeply rising costs for electricity are eventually proven to be.

Reply to  Beta Blocker
January 13, 2023 11:27 am

Proposing molten salt reactors as the energy answer is exciting, much better than the current effort to replace “fossil fuels” with sunshine and breezes.
 MSR technology via Bill Gates’ first commercial operation is supposedly to debut prior to 2030. I hope so.

Accelerated testing methods of the corrosion resistant materials required will have had to satisfied regulators and investors. Such testing over a 5 or more likely 10-year period seems necessary to find the “best” materials but the “best” materials need to last 40+ years to be commercial. I see comments about “cladding” for MSR corrosion resistance, but I suspect there’s patent protection issues that will discourage cooperation and extend timeframes.

The best hope we have for phasing in nuclear technology from 2030-2040 is NuScale’s small scale modular reactors, while molten salt fast neutron reactors are being perfected IMHO. I’m not by any stretch an expert, just a seriously interested old man who wants to see the beginning of the new generation nuclear renaissance before I kick off!

copy

TerraPower will run tests with depleted uranium, which is not used in fission, to determine which materials can hold molten salt without being damaged by corrosion

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333245378_Status_of_Metallic_Structural_Materials_for_Molten_Salt_Reactors
2018:
Hastelloy N has not been qualified for use in nuclear construction, and significant additional characterization would be required for Code qualification. …
… It is recommended that a systematic development program be initiated to develop new nickel alloys that contain a fine, stable dispersion of intermetallic particles to trap helium at the interface between the matrix and particle, and with increased solid-solution strengthening from addition of refractory elements.
With support from computational materials science tools, a speculative time frame for a down-selection program, using 20-30 kg heats, is about four to five years….

Beta Blocker
Reply to  Dennis Gerald Sandberg
January 14, 2023 9:21 am

My expectation is that the NuScale SMR design will be the first to reach commercial operation in the US, in early 2029 if the current schedule is met. The NuScale design is a light water reactor derivative using legacy LWR/PWR nuclear technology which has been loaded into a smaller package. In comparison, the Natrium reactor design and its associated reactor development project is more ambitious both technologically and programatically.

In addition, the NuScale team has been working on their SMR design since the mid-2000’s. The founders of the company recognized early on that the energy marketplace in the US was no longer conducive to building the large unitary 1,100 MWe power reactors. What was needed instead was scalability in response to slower growth in demand for electricity, a more cost-effective approach to fabricating QA-compliant systems and components, a much reduced emergency response planning zone, and the need to tightly manage every facet of the design, development, and construction of their SMR concept in a highly disciplined way, thus avoiding unforeseen regulatory roadblocks as the project moves forward. 

TerraPower claims they can get their first Natrium reactor into commercial operation by 2028.

After looking at their published high level schedule, I don’t believe this claim. Too much work covering too many areas of technology development & demonstration, supplier qualification & mobilization, regulatory review & permitting, and project planning & scheduling still remains to be done before the Natrium design can go into commercial operation. For an SMR design as ambitious as the Natrium, six years simply isn’t enough time to get all this work done. Given how ambitious the TerraPower project actually is, 2032 or even 2035 seems to me to be a more realistic target date.

Here are illustrations of the NuScale SMR module design and the SMR module containment building. 

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The reactor core and the steam generator are contained in one 76-foot high 77 MWe SMR module. These modules reside in a common pool of water inside the same containment building. For a 12-module power plant, two containment buildings carry six modules each. For a 6-module power plant, the two containment buildings carry three modules each. The emergency planning zone for a NuScale plant extends only to the plant fence.

Each SMR module serves one turbine generator. Each reactor-turbine combination can be brought online or shut down independently of the others. Each SMR module can be refueled independently from the others while the others are still operating. The NuScale design uses half-height conventional fuel rods. Any future improvements in the nuclear fuel technology used in the legacy LWR/PWR reactor fleet can also be applied to the NuScale SMR design. Enough room is allocated on the plant site for sixty years of dry cask spent fuel storage.

This month, NuScale submitted another application to the NRC for Standard Design Approval (SDA) of their standard six-module SMR plant. The revised application uprates the previous 50 MWe design to 77 MWe. Based on the NRC’s comments made on a preliminary draft of the SDA application submitted in the fall of 2022, I’m expecting NRC review and approval of this lastest submission to take fourteen to sixteen months when all required revisons to the application are complete.

In the meantime, other work needed to mobilize the component supplier base can continue with little or no risk to the 2029 project completion date from obstacles directly related to regulatory oversight and compliance. My opinion remains that NuScale is well ahead of its SMR competitors in doing all the work needed to get an SMR-based power plant into production operation in the United States.

What kinds of obstacles could prevent that first SMR plant from being built?

Opposition from anti-nuclear activists isn’t the most important obstacle to new-build nuclear in the US. Keeping nuclear’s capital costs under control is the most difficult challenge the nuclear construction industry now faces. The target for most SMR projects is to keep capital cost to $5,000 per kw or lower. The high rate of inflation which is affecting all component suppliers in the industrial supply chain is now the greatest threat to the successful deployment of SMR technology in this country. 

Nuclear projects are different from wind & solar projects because the people who make the energy policy decisions and the energy system procurement decisions don’t particularly care what wind & solar costs. Wind & solar subsidies will flow regardless. However, they do care what nuclear power costs. If the nominal capital cost for a new-build SMR plant rises too much above $5,000 per kw, then here in the US, we will be seeing the postponement or outright cancellation of many if not all of the SMR projects now in the pipeline.

Time will tell what happens.

batpox
January 13, 2023 12:58 pm

My friend in London informed me he is now paying $0.65 per KW (I pay about $0.10 here in rural Northern PA). The unintended consequences (widely reported except by CNN) is that it now costs more to “fill up” your EV than your ICE car, and heat pumps now become much more expensive than gas alternatives. These facts are why now the only obvious course is to ban the better and cheaper alternatives to green electricity. Otherwise, the free market will destroy their mirage.

John Brown
January 17, 2023 10:49 am

Lord Monckton, If you are briefing a senior Conservative MP next week on the Pollock limit would it be possible please for you to also point out that for off-shore wind to produce P GW of dispatchable/reliable energy it will require an installed capacity of 7.5P GW (over 7 times more).

My calculation is as follows:
 
Suppose we want P GW of power to be “dispatchable”, meaning always available “on demand”.
 
Let us start with P GW of installed wind turbine power and calculate the extra installed capacity required to produce P GW of dispatchable power.
 
Now the capacity factor of offshore wind turbines is 33% (onshore is less), so the average amount of power over a year supplied by a wind turbine is 0.33P GW and consequently we will require 0.67P GW of storage.
 
The efficiencies are :
Electrolysis : 60%
Compression : 87%
Electricity generation : 60%
So overall efficiency = 60% x 87% x 60% = 31%
 
So the amount of excess power required to produce the missing 0.67P GW is 0.67P/0.31 = 2.16P.
 
Since the capacity factor is 33%, this means we will need 2.16P/0.33 = 6.55P GW of additional installed wind power to provide the needed 0.67P of dispatchable power.
 
Hence a total of P + 6.55P = 7.5P of installed wind turbine capacity is required to provide P GW of dispatchable power.
 
This is of course if you agree with my calculation!
 
Thank you.

Monckton of Brenchley
Reply to  John Brown
January 20, 2023 3:58 am

Mr Brown’s calculation is certainly intriguing. Does he know whether the inefficiencies to which he draws attention are already taken into account in statements of the nameplate capacity of wind farms?

John Brown
Reply to  Monckton of Brenchley
January 22, 2023 5:47 am

Lord Monckton, Many thanks for reading my post and for your question.
 
The “nameplate capacity” (or I call it the “installed capacity”) of a wind turbine is the maximum capacity (output) possible from a wind turbine in ideal conditions. To quote Wikipedia :
 
“Nameplate capacity, also known as the rated capacity, nominal capacity, installed capacity, or maximum effect, is the intended full-load sustained output of a facility such as a power station,[1][2] electric generator, a chemical plant,[3] fuel plant, mine,[4] metal refinery,[5] and many others.
 
Nameplate capacity is the theoretical output registered with authorities for classifying the unit. For intermittent power sources, such as wind and solar, nameplate power is the source’s output under ideal conditions, such as maximum usable wind or high sun on a clear summer day.
 
Capacity factor measures the ratio of actual output over an extended period to nameplate capacity. Power plants with an output consistently near their nameplate capacity have a high capacity factor.”
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nameplate_capacity
 
For wind farm developers this is not only the highest figure for the wind farm’s output – which they would like to quote – but it is the only figure they can accurately quote as the actual (real) output is variable depending on the amount of wind during the period under examination.
 
The UK’s BEIS’ UK ENERGY IN BRIEF 2022 for 2021 P33
 
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1094025/UK_Energy_in_Brief_2022.pdf
 
Shows onshore (29.2 GW) + offshore (35.5 GW) wind produced a total of 64.7 TWhrs of energy during 2021. This is an average of 7.4 GW over the year.
 
Wikipedia shows that the UK had 25.7 GW of (installed/nameplate) wind capacity in 2021. So the capacity (load) factor is 7.4 GW/25.7 GW = 29%.
 
In fact the Wikipedia themselves put the figure at 29.3% for 2021.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_the_United_Kingdom
 
So I do not think the “nameplate capacity of wind farms” takes into account the capacity factor/inefficiency and the inefficiency of wind means that the average output from a wind turbine is only around 30% of the quoted installed/nameplate capacity.
 
I believe my calculation is correct and explains why there is no attempt anywhere in the world to use hydrogen as a store of energy at grid-scale to counter the intermittency of renewables.

I look forward to your comments and if you agree with my calculation to please explain this next week to the senior Conservative MP you are meeting next week.

Thank you.

dk_
January 22, 2023 3:26 pm

Probably too late to matter, I have been repeatedly pulled back to this post not by my initial, too quick reading of it, but by attacks against it by other respected posters and commentary (with chorus) on those attacks.

Apologies offered, if somehow warranted, by my poor understanding and perhaps momentary misrepresntation of my own of this post in comments. Following directions, finally, I have read it all carefully and believe that I can appreciate it. As well, I think that I appreciate how those attackers are incorrect, and how unworthy it is for some of those to be so engaged for this long without a retraction or correction.

Thanks Christopher Monckton for an excellent puzzle and useful exercise. I am unable to engage in any activity that would help to verify or refute the postulate you’ve presented. It is interesting idea, and I hope that Douglas Pollack will present some of his work in a way that I can read it, and hopefully with a little better attention than I’ve initially given your presentation. I hope to have the pleasure to study your future posts of the like.

Congratulations.