Gas Furnaces and Big Brother Revisited

From MasterResource

By Mark Krebs — November 3, 2022

“The fantasy, the shared narrative, is that replacing natural gas with electricity addresses the ‘climate crisis’ … Coupled with smart meters and digital currency, the home and business are subject to social monitoring and control. This is a high-tech version of F. A. Hayek’s the road to serfdom.”

On October 11, 2022, Gas Furnaces: Big Brother Says No highlighted the joint comments filed by the Competitive Enterprise Institute (CEI) et al. [1] These comments were in opposition to the Department of Energy (DOE) Office of Energy Efficiency & Renewable Energy (EERE)  and their (severely overreaching) “Notice of Proposed Rulemaking” (NOPR) to ban the manufacturing of gas-fueled residential furnaces: “Energy Conservation Program for Consumer Products.”

CEI et al.’s comments primarily highlighted how DOE/EERE is attempting to justify its proposed ban based upon improper use of the Social Cost of Carbon (SCC): “2022-10-05 Joint Comment response to the published NOPR.”

Several hundred comments were filed.  This post highlights a few more comments filed in opposing this NOPR, including my own: “2022-10-06 Comment response to the published NOPR.” Some of the comments reviewed here were submitted by free-market advocates and some from gas/consumer interests.

The types of furnaces that would be eliminated under the EERE’s proposal are the very common non-weatherized gas furnaces and mobile home gas furnaces that are atmospherically vented (a.k.a., “non-condensing”) and used in most existing homes. By mandating a minimum gas-furnace efficiency of 95 percent, EERE’s proposal would force consumers to replace furnace combustion exhaust systems, because such efficiences can be safely met only by totally different venting systems designed to handle internal condensation. 

Better Coordination Needed

There is a great need to better coordinate the voices of unhampered consumer choice against the “clean” electricity monoculture.  In particular:

  • Gas and consumer interest need to understand and emphasize how DOE/EERE has its fingers on the scale regarding claimed climate benefits; also,
  • Free-market commenters need to understand and expose how DOE/EERE also has fingers on the scale by gaming the complex models used to calculate benefits  

Together, DOE/EERE has its fists on the scale and is pressing down hard with its full body weight to eliminate gas. Cheating is cheating, and both factions of DOE/EERE’s opposition must fight with the full force of both arguments simultaneously.


The fantasy, the shared environmental narrative, is that replacing natural gas with electricity addresses the “climate crisis.” When coupled with smart meters and digital currency, homes and businesses will be subject to social monitoring and control. This is a high-tech version of F. A. Hayek’s the road to serfdom. (See “The Cloward-Piven Strategy: Orchestrating A Crisis So Government Can ‘Solve’ It.”)

In case you think this sounds paranoid, it’s a thin line separating paranoia from an acute appreciation. Some people thought the threat of government-forced electrification was “paranoid” a few years ago. Now, under the Biden Administration, electrification is national energy policy.  Additionally, the environmentalists are clamoring for Biden to declare a “climate emergency.” If so, the road to serfdom could become a digital superhighway.

Other Comments

Here are coments from other pro-consumer, pro-market sources:

Heritage Foundation

Heritage summarized its comments with the following outline:

  1. The proposed standard modification does not meet the “economically justified” criteria for prescribing new or amended standards;
  2. The so-called social cost of greenhouse gases obscures regulatory costs;
  3. The proposed standard unjustifiably reduces consumer choice;
  4. The proposed standards are unnecessary given the wide availability of condensing furnaces and their existing market penetration; and
  5. The proposed standard does not meaningfully fulfill the intent of the Energy Policy and Conservation Act.

Perhaps Heritage’s most noteworthy comments relate to point 5 and the Congressional intent behind the 1975 Energy Policy and Conservation Act (EPCA), which establishes DOE/EERE regulatory authority to set minimum appliance efficiency standards. Here are some teasers to read Heritage’s comments in full:

What [sic] the Department does provide analysis of the impact on competition, it seems not to appreciate the positive benefit that having both types of furnaces will have on long term market dynamics. As the White House published on July 9, 2021, “Healthy market competition is fundamental to a well-functioning U.S. economy.” It goes on to point out that insufficient competition will lead to higher prices and lower quality and argues that one of the causes of this condition is too much market concentration.

Unfortunately, should this rule be finalized, it will lead to the precise market conditions that the White House seems to be arguing against. Though the White House analysis focuses on market concentration regarding firms, technology concentration is just as detrimental.

In removing an entire technology from the market, this rule would limit the incentive for condensing furnace manufacturers to lower prices, or even to increase efficiency further, because the regulation will have captured a substantial portion of the market for them. Indeed, absent the countervailing force of competition, the more likely outcome will be for condensing furnace manufactures to increase prices.

Heritage’s NOPR comment says nothing about the elimination of competition from electrification. To be fair, and for whatever reason, most free-market entities don’t challenge the electric utility industry. I’m not sure why. (Perhaps they will tell me.)  For more information, see Spire to DOJ letter.

Regardless, the Heritage Foundation deserves considerable credit for their comments and the fine public education webinars they host regularly. For example, on October 12th, Heritage provided a webinar titled “The Politics of Climate Change” (here). Considerable discussion was given to the subject of “The Great Reset” (mainly by Marc Romano), of which the forced transition from the direct use of gaseous fuels to electricity is a major part.  Check it out; you won’t be disappointed.

Heartland Institute

Heartland’s comments start with a discussion of adverse impacts upon low-income energy consumers.  Its strongest case is that the DOE/EERE proposal is just plain unnecessary.  Per the following paragraph from Heartland’s comments:

Heartland also contends that this rule is unnecessary. Today, condensing furnaces are readily available and have already captured more than half the market. Six in ten of the non-weatherized natural gas furnaces (NWGFs) shipped are condensing models. This trend in higher efficiency furnace purchases demonstrates that the proposed new standards are needless.

Stark regional impact differences show in northern states like Minnesota or Wisconsin, most residential natural gas furnaces already meet requirement of 95% annual fuel utilization efficiency (AFUE). Absent further action, DOE estimates that 91-95% of furnace replacements in these states will be at an AFUE of 92% or higher by the proposed effective date of the rule.

In southern states like Texas, Georgia, and Florida, consumers demand much less home heat, so a smaller percentage of homeowners have adopted higher efficiency furnace models. Where furnaces are used heavily, condensing models are installed, mitigating the need for this government mandate.

Like Heritage, Heartland also hosts numerous educational webinars on the falsity of a climate emergency.

American Gas Association (AGA) [2]

Moving on to gas utility comments and those of their trade associations: AGA comments concentrated on identifying the technical devils-in-the-details (a.k.a., “modelling cheats”) employed by DOE/EERE to demonstrate compliance with EPCA to claim net positive life-cycle benefits.  Due to the sheer number of details with which to hide devils, AGA’s comments took 114 pages. 

These were accompanied by attachments for nearly every letter of the alphabet. The reason for so much detail is to enable litigation. DOE/EERE is supposed to respond to all AGA’s comments come time to issue a Final Rule.  And then, barring a highly unlikely backing down from DOE/EERE, comes a legal appeal under the Administrative Procedures Act. Then, all the details, along with whatever responses DOE/EERE musters, get their chance to appeal in court. This can take years.

Natural Propane Gas Association (NPGA)

NPGA’S 28-page contribution to the cause struck a good balance between modelling details and Congressional intent regarding EPCA. NPGA also provided unique insight regarding DOE/EERE misuse of Monte Carlo techniques. The following outlines NPGA’s 28 pages of comments:

  1. The Proposal Exceeds DOE’s Authority
    1. DOE’s Proposal Unlawfully Forces Fuel Switching.
    2. The Proposal Unlawfully Imposes “Design Requirements.”
  2. DOE’s Proposal Is Economically Unjustified.
    1. DOE’s Proposal Is Based Largely on Conjecture
    2. DOE’s Economic Model is Fatally Flawed.
      1. DOE’s “Random Assignment” Overstates the Proposal’s Benefits.
      2. DOE’s Use of Monte Carlo Analysis is Improper
  3. Failure to Provide a Separate Standard for Non-Condensing Furnaces Would Violate EPCA.
  4. The Proposal Fails to Take into Account Additional Burdens Related to Propane

NPGA’s comments did not directly address electrification.


Spire commented with 56 pages and three attachments.  Comments were well constructed and covered much of the same territory as AGA and NPGA comments but also did not have much to say about climate science modelling. Perhaps Spire and the other gas industry commenters assumed (rightly as it turns out) that the free-market commenters would do so.

Spire’s comments also addressed upfront the “elephant in the room” of electrification. Good on Spire. With the help of computer software engineers, Spire dug deep into Monte Carlo models to identify precisely where and how DOE/EERE left its digital fingerprints on the scale. This data was  summarized with numerous textual charts, tables and graphs. Again, this detail will come into full play when it is time to litigate.

Gas Analytic & Advocacy Services (GAS)

These comments were structured to provide an overview of DOE/EERE’s longstanding pattern of abuse without getting too deep in the technical weeds of climate or consumer economics. The rationale was that, when this goes to litigation, the court will see DOE/EERE’s pattern of abuse and not be so lenient by letting DOE/EERE off the hook with a remand.

The upshot of these comments is that the regulatory minimization of carbon emissions is being increasingly emphasized by DOE\EERE (despite EPCA) because reducing consumer energy expenses is decreasingly sufficent for justfying stringent appliance efficiency minimums.  This transition is illustrated by the following graph:

Electrification – What Does It Mean for Energy Efficiency?

Another term for this transition is “mission creep.”  Even the high hanging fruit has been picked clean and this transition will keep the bureaucrats employed for at least the next two decades. The following slides summarize the funding being directed towards this mission creep through the “Inflation Reduction Act.”

In addition to the commenters discussed above, there were several gas utilities who filed comments in opposition. Conversely, there were many electric utilities commending DOE/EERE’s proposal.  Also present were a host of usual suspects: “energy efficiency” advocates, environmentalists, progressive regulators, etc.   


Fighting DOE/EERE and their “preferred customers” is resource and time intensive. Case in point: the American Public Gas Association’s appeal to overturn a DOE/EERE Final Rule to eliminate non-condensing commercial boilers (reviewed here). 

Since DOE/EERE is backed by the Department of Justice, their legal budget is virtually unlimited. And now, “net zero” zealots have a $40+ billion slush fund with which to push their political agendas under the guise of an existential threat of anthropogenic global warming (AGW). It is a safe bet that this NOPR will lead to a Final Rule and that it will be appealed.

So far, Spire and the APGA have been picking up the tab. Whether they know it or not, they could use some additional help; especially from free-market oriented economists and scientists. After all, united we stand and divided we fall.

Appendix: Why and How to Unite

As demonstrated by the filed comments of electric utility interests, environmentalists, and the mutual support pact between Edison Electric Institute and NRDC, these “stakeholders” are clearly aligned and proceeding accordingly. Consequently, it would behoove gas end-use and free market/consumer choice interests to also align.

They can start by better understanding the others’ filed concerns and adapting/adopting each other’s recurring themes going forward. For gas end-use interests, this entails boning-up on what remains largely unsettled science regarding the ostensible threats from anthropogenic global warming cultists and how these factors are being cherry-picked to game regulatory outcomes through mechanisms such as the social cost of carbon (SCC).

For free market/consumer choice interests, this means better understanding that gaseous fuels represent the main obstacle to increasingly “betting the farm” on the false hope of an “all renewables, all the time” nirvana while also venturing into the technical weeds of regulatory processes and rules that allow for appeal. Then, coalitions between these groups can be formed and act to better protect the interests of the besieged American consumer.

Consumers also have a role to play. They need to become better educated about energy. Considering how besieged consumers are by the many failings of the Biden Administration, getting this message heard above the din will require increased and continued efforts. Winning this contest for grabbing consumers’ interest will not be served by pulling punches because someone doesn’t want to “trigger” opposing interests.

As Clausewitz once said: “A short jump is certainly easier than a long one; but no one wanting to get across a wide ditch would begin by jumping half-way.” Considering the depth and breadth of consumer indoctrination regarding AGW, the ditch is very wide. But at the same time, the ditch is largely illusionary and susceptive to logical/conservative means of bridging it that we can collectively bring to bear against sever regulatory overreach.


Mark Krebs, a mechanical engineer and energy policy consultant, has been involved with energy efficiency design and program evaluation for more than thirty years. He has served as an expert witness in dozens of State energy efficiency proceedings, has been an advisor to DOE and has submitted scores of Federal energy-efficiency filings. 

His many MasterResource posts on natural gas vs. electricity and “Deep Decarbonization” federal policy can be found here. Mark’s first article was in the Public Utilities Fortnightly and titled “It’s a War Out There: A Gas Man Questions Electric Efficiency” (December 1996). For more of Krebs’s analysis, see his MasterResource archive.

Recently retired from Spire Inc., Krebs has formed an energy policy consultancy (Gas Analytic & Advocacy Services) with other veteran energy analysts.

[1] Consumers’ Research, Center for the American Experiment,, Project 21, Caesar Rodney Institute, Rio Grande Foundation, Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow, FreedomWorks Foundation, Heartland Institute, Thomas Jefferson Institute, Independent Women’s Forum, Independent Women’s Voice, and Institute for Energy Research

[2] Signatories included: American Pipeline Contractors Association, American Public Gas Association, American Society of Gas Engineers, American Supply Association, Arkansas Gas Association, Consumer Energy Alliance, Distribution Contractors Association, Hearth, Patio & Barbecue Association, Hispanics in Energy, Louisiana Gas Association, Manufactured Housing Institute, National Apartment Association, National Association of Home Builders, National Leased Housing Association, National Multifamily Housing Council, National Propane Gas Association, National Utility Contractors Association, Natural Gas Supply Association, Northeast Gas Association, Plastics Pipe Institute, Plumbing-Heating-Cooling Contractors Association, Rinnai America Corporation, Thermo Products LLC, U.S. Chamber of Commerce, Utility Workers Union of America, AFL-CIO, and Williams Furnace Co. dba Williams Comfort Products or Williams.

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Tom Halla
November 4, 2022 6:09 am

Letting the “endangerment finding” on CO2 stand will lead to this sort of insanity, as pollution is used in a religious sense. Of course they want no sinning, i. e. CO2 emmissions.

Steve Case
Reply to  Tom Halla
November 4, 2022 8:13 am


Carbon dioxide is not a problem.

4E Douglas
November 4, 2022 6:45 am

I have a feeling that some if not all of this Insanity will come to a grinding halt after Nov. 8.

Reply to  4E Douglas
November 4, 2022 7:46 am

Even if the Republicans won every contested seat, the insanity will not stop, it won’t even slow down That’s because the Democrats still run the Executive branch and they are the ones doing this nonsense. Worse, the swamp barely even notices, much less cares what congress does anymore. They have their own agenda and no reason to not pursue it.

Steve Case
Reply to  MarkW
November 4, 2022 8:50 am

“…the swamp …They have their own agenda
and no reason to not pursue it.”

This one was pasted up on Pookie’s Toons this morning:

     “The Revolution won’t happen with guns,
     rather it will happen incrementally, year by year,
     generation by generation. We will gradually
     infiltrate their educational institutions and their
     political offices, transforming them slowly into
     Marxist entities as we move towards universal
     egalitarianism.” — Max Horkheimer

Horkheimer didn’t mention “their financial institutions”
but that’s probably what ESG* is all about.

*Environmental, Social and Governance

Tom Gelsthorpe
Reply to  Steve Case
November 4, 2022 10:10 am

Nor did Horkheimer mention that “egalitarianism” has nothing to do with it. Equality of result is only a bait. Before, during, and after the bait has switched, the big shots will still be in charge, and the peasants will still be tugging their forelocks, “generation after generation.”Being browbeaten about equality of result makes it hard for people to remember that they don’t want all the same things in the first place.ESG is just another grab bag of sanctimonious gobbledygook. Keep the peasants off balance; keep ’em tugging those forelocks. It’s hard to do anything substantial with one hand in front of your face.

Last edited 2 months ago by Tom Gelsthorpe
Gregg Eshelman
Reply to  Steve Case
November 5, 2022 2:36 am

AAA’s financial divisions (AAA Travel Advantage Visa and AAA Visa Signature card etc) have switched from Bank of America to Comenity Bank. Likely not at all coincidentally with BoA’s announcements about their going all in on ESG.

November 4, 2022 7:25 am

Never mind that these inherently less efficient electric heaters will be powered by coal and natural gas. Will these morons also figure in the energy losses from step up and step down transformers and along the transmission lines? Sorry greenies, pixie dust and unicorn farts are not going to sustain the grid. And, when rolling blackouts are instituted because the grid can’t power all those “green” electric heaters (and other appliances), many more in the northern climes will succumb to the cold. This couldn’t be part of the WEF/Klaus Schwab/Bill Gates depopulation scheme, could it?

Reply to  DFJ150
November 4, 2022 8:03 am

Converting everyone over to electric heat and EVs sounds interesting, but building new non-renewable power facilities seems to be coming under fire. Wonder what everyone will do when there’s not enough juice to go around?

Reply to  Spetzer86
November 4, 2022 10:58 am

They will ration it, based on your social score.

In The Real World
Reply to  DFJ150
November 4, 2022 8:52 am

In the UK in 2016 a Government committee concluded that to change to all electric home heating would need a 400% increase in generation capacity . So the idea was sensibly scrapped .
But now the Green loonies have started to push this insanity again .
There is still no way it could happen , but the only conclusion is that it is a way to kill off millions of the common people from winter cold weather .

Iain Reid
Reply to  In The Real World
November 5, 2022 1:22 am

In the Real World,

to amplify, that 400% will only be used a few months of the year, what do you do with it for the other eight months?

In The Real World
Reply to  Iain Reid
November 5, 2022 8:58 am

Iain Reid .Funnily enough , with conventional generation it is not difficult to run up or turn down generators to match demand .
But with the unreliables madness , they have to be paid not to produce energy when it is not needed .

So just another reason why wind/solar make energy very expensive for the consumers .

Tom Johnson
November 4, 2022 7:31 am

Condensing gas or propane furnaces are not as simple as many believe. They’re great, as long as the owner has a way of venting the inlets and outlets, including the condensed water. Water condenses at both the heat exchanger, and also in the exit flue pipe. It can also freeze in both places. It very frequently requires some kind of pump to get to a non-freezing drain. Often an existing sump pump will suffice, but sometimes more exotic pumping is required in order to guarantee that it doesn’t freeze in cold climates. CAGW hasn’t helped this to date.

In addition, the PVC pipes typically used for inlets and exhausts are often mounted somewhat close to ground level, often near the top of basement sidewalls. When covered by excessive snowfall they will cause a furnace shutdown. This must be manually reset, but only after the snow is cleared. When this isn’t done quickly, the entire house will freeze, causing thousands of dollars in damage. (I speak from experience on this.)

I am a firm believer in the cost effectiveness of condensing furnaces, but the total system cost is important in the analysis of any mandatory requirement.

Steven Pfeiffer
Reply to  Tom Johnson
November 4, 2022 7:48 am

Don’t forget the acid neutralization for the effluent water.

Reply to  Tom Johnson
November 4, 2022 12:17 pm


Don’t forget that the expense and technology required to increase efficiency just one percent above a certain level becomes impractical, very expensive or maybe impossible without causing other problems. We see this now after almost two years of “saving the planet” efforts without not building an actual, successful infrastructure depending upon Unicorns and unlimited sunshine.

I also agree with that one corp asserting the furnace regulation is beyond the scope of the government agency trying to save the planet by freezing us to death.

Gums sends…

D. J. Hawkins
Reply to  Gums
November 4, 2022 1:01 pm

Don’t forget that the expense and technology required to increase efficiency just one percent above a certain level becomes impractical…

I recall from one of my ChE classes that a very rough rule of thumb was that every decimal point costs 10X the previous one. Going from 90% efficiency to 99% will cost you 10X whatever the capital cost for 90% was, and so on.

November 4, 2022 7:32 am

DOE makes no secret of it’s purpose. The key words are transformative and radially change.

The mission of the Energy Department is to ensure America’s security and prosperity by addressing its energy, environmental and nuclear challenges through transformative science and technology solutions. Learn more.

Transformative science: Radically change understanding of an important existing concept in science, engineering or education.

Radical change refers to change that occurs relatively fast and modifies the essence of social structures or organizational practices. Specifically, this type of change affects the resources, norms, and interpretive schemes of groups and individuals.

It doesnot add up
November 4, 2022 7:32 am

In the UK it has long been a requirement to install condensing gas bpilers on replacement. They have proved to be much less reliable than their less efficient forebears, often requiring replacement in as little as 7-8 years.

Finding ways to break things seems to be part of the modus operandi of green zealots. It’s much the same deal with boofuels that wreck fuel pumps and engines.

The new requirement on boilers is that they must be hydrogen ready. Just more features to ramp up costs and go wrong, forcing replacement.

Gregg Eshelman
Reply to  It doesnot add up
November 5, 2022 2:39 am

Are they built by Lucas? I’ve had a 95% efficient gas furnace in my shop for over 20 years and in that time I’ve only had to have it fixed one time when a relay on the control circuit board failed.

November 4, 2022 7:35 am

The people in the administration are finding different ways to kill us. What is dumbfounding is that large corporations who make money from us are willing to stand by and see their customers done in. Either financially or literally.

November 4, 2022 7:38 am

If the grid can’t handle a few teslas charging, it certainly won’t handle a few days of -30F around minneapolis

jeffery p
Reply to  billtoo
November 4, 2022 8:46 am

How do the Teslas handle -30F in Minneapolis?

Reply to  jeffery p
November 4, 2022 11:00 am

According to the alarmists, Minneapolis will never see temperatures below freezing again, due to CO2.

Reply to  MarkW
November 4, 2022 5:41 pm

IIRC there was a cold front in Minnesota ~ Feb 2019 in which there was essentially no sun or wind electricity generation for about a week: and highs of -5 degrees F. Yet no one froze to death because they had 100% backup from reliable sources (aka fossils fuels + nukes). [Texas was not paying attention!]
Yet they are paying for TWO systems.
The alarmists are making society more fragile by forcing the use of weather dependent energy sources. Insanity!

Reply to  B Zipperer
November 4, 2022 9:03 pm

Don’t count on that happen again in Minnesota, your utilities are shutting down coal fired plants all over the place.

Gregg Eshelman
Reply to  B Zipperer
November 5, 2022 2:42 am

Texas rarely sees such cold temperatures, much less for a sustained cold snap. Adding backup capacity for conditions that happen for much less than 1% of the time is a waste of money.

It would be better to build nuclear power plants and scrap the wind turbines and solar that need an expensive and little used backup.

Reply to  B Zipperer
November 5, 2022 2:18 pm

during that cold snap Xcel energy ran around giving out free electric space heaters because even THEY could not keep up with heating demand.

(turns out that in MN heat from an incandescent lightbulb isn’t really “waste” most of the time)

Reply to  billtoo
November 5, 2022 2:40 pm

“THEY” meaning their natural gas side.

lee riffee
November 4, 2022 7:54 am

If this nuttiness isn’t stopped, the US will be more and more like Cuba, not just with cars and trucks, but also with furnaces. I can see handy homeowners trying their best to keep their old furnaces running and repairing equipment that would be scrapped and replaced. Cars are one thing, but for a furnace, if you don’t know what you are doing, such amateur repairs can lead to carbon monoxide (yes, unlike CO2, that is a very deadly gas….) poisoning and fires and explosions.
But gee, since Bidet was “kind” enough to toss out tax payer monies for college loans, maybe he will use our money to subsidize these high efficiency furnaces for people who cannot afford them…
But hopefully next January Bidet will be bound by a Republican congress!

Steve Case
Reply to  lee riffee
November 4, 2022 9:38 am

 I can see handy homeowners trying their best to keep their old furnaces running and repairing equipment that would be scrapped and replaced. 

The Democrats will turn off their gas.

jeffery p
Reply to  lee riffee
November 4, 2022 2:31 pm

Cuba? I wish! More like Venezuela.

Steve Case
November 4, 2022 8:10 am

The upshot of these comments is that the regulatory minimization of carbon emissions …

It’s not carbon, it’s carbon dioxide (CO2). Please stop allowing the other side from controlling the language.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Steve Case
November 4, 2022 10:58 am


This site needs an editor. Every time an article uses a grossly misleading term such as “renewable energy” or “carbon” or “pause,” it should be replaced in [ ] with the corrected term, e.g., “allegedly renewable” or “renewable” or “carbon dioxide” or “stop” (because “pause” contains the non-scientific assumption that warming will certainly continue).

Also, the article titles (the ones that appear in our InBox Subject line) should ALWAYS be accurate, i.e., not leaving it up to a commenter to say, “Renewable” or the like.

Otherwise, WUWT is promoting AGW by its choice of language.

Reply to  Janice Moore
November 4, 2022 12:18 pm

Every time someone uses the term carbon footprint, they should be corrected too: carbon dioxide footprint (not that it really matters though).

Joel O'Bryan
November 4, 2022 9:48 am

Everything about the Green Marxists is an inversion of truth. George Orwell described this mindset in 1984 with 3 slogans being:
War is peace, freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength.

This is part of the DoubleThink/DoubleSpeak that Orwell coined. That is holding two diametrically opposed beliefs simultaneously and believing both to be true.

All of this leads to where we are today with the two political tribes now at work in the US.

Some of this Double Think includes:
We have to destroy our capitalist economy to save it.

We have to destroy democracy to save it.

And in the context of this essay:
We have to destroy the environment to save climate.
The climate policies of the Green Marxists will bring about the very environmental destruction they claim to attempt to avert. Because the true intent is the pursuit of raw political power as an end unto itself, whatever the means or costs.

We see this with the Hell bent for leather” attempt to make everyone use electricity for their heating and get off of natural gas. But natural gas does and will for at least the next 30 years be the dominant source of electrical energy production in the US. So this is just shifting where the natural gas is burned, making everyone susceptible to electrical energy controls (like rolling black-outs, low social credit score individual electricity cut-offs, and government control).

This DoubleSpeak is with us everyday now with US Democrats. One of the latest being Dementia Joe’s claims in his recent unhinged teleprompter-fed rant:

His basic argument is: If (so called “MAGA”) Republicans win they are going to destroy democracy, but if our democratic elections put in Republicans it means our democracy is not working.
This is DoubleSpeak purpose, holding two opposing beliefs simultaneously and believing both to be true, is to sow confusion in the dumbed-down public by presenting a “heads I win, tails you lose” argument.

The only solution is to vote the Marxists out of power and keep them out of positions of political power via ballot box rejection.

Steve Case
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
November 4, 2022 10:29 am

“The only solution is to vote the Marxists out of power and keep them out of positions of political power via ballot box rejection.”

When the Soviet Union collapsed Christmas of 1993 those old Bolsheviks realized that the West probably considered that to be the end of communism and would let their guard down. So they went to work infiltrating western institutions. We are now dealing with unelected bureaucrats that are at odds with the politics of the general public.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Steve Case
November 4, 2022 11:31 am
Last edited 2 months ago by Janice Moore
Reply to  Janice Moore
November 4, 2022 3:06 pm

since congressional districts roughly have equal populations, why don’t you enlighten us with what that top crust of blue does?

Janice Moore
Reply to  billtoo
November 4, 2022 4:20 pm

Read Karl Marx instead of Milton Friedman.

Buy New Age crystals and smoke pot and play video games instead of listening to videos of Richard Lindzen.

Major in sociology instead of engineering.

Join a union instead of promoting right to work ideals.

Work for the government.

Teach school (not all teachers are unthinking liberals, but there is a meaningful trend…).

Read their Bibles or Torah (those who do at all, I mean) like they are going through a buffet, selecting only what appeals to their taste.

Vote Democrat because their mom or dad did. And because the union says so.

Make a lot of money using market-by-fiat government regulations.

Drive a holy car (hybrid or electric vehicle).

Wear socks with their sandals.

jeffery p
Reply to  Steve Case
November 4, 2022 2:34 pm

The Marxist radicals were already with us, like a fifth column. Or sleeper cells. When the USSR collapsed and everybody stopped paying attention, they let their true intentions show.

Reply to  Steve Case
November 5, 2022 1:01 pm

When the Soviet Union collapsed Christmas of 1993 those old Bolsheviks realized that the West probably considered that to be the end of communism and would let their guard down. So they went to work infiltrating western institutions. We are now dealing with unelected bureaucrats that are at odds with the politics of the general public.
The marxist started in the tail end of the 19th century with the progressive movement. The first round was called the Progressive era running 1900-1920 with Woodrow Wilson as their crowning glory. They ran the economy into the ground much like today then went underground. They reappear with FDR, LBJ, Clinton, Somewhat with the Bushes and Obama. When ask after the presidential debate what Hillarys politics were, she responded Early American Progressive.
USSR has attempted to import their ideas over the last 100 years but their numbers remained fairly small. China is now attempting to do so through our eduction system. Look at my post farther down about the administrative government as the idea originated with the progressives and was written up by Woodrow Wilson but was first used under FDR.
Sorry for the fact bomb but I have been studying this for several years and have started what will be a rather long paper on the subject.

Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
November 4, 2022 10:50 am

Not only do we need to vote the Marxists out of power via the ballot box, we need to prosecute them and put them in prison. Incitement to riot, vandalism, arson, extortion, assault and battery should lead to isolation from civil society.
Prison should be heaven for them. Free room and board, medical, and access to entertainment is their utopia and available in penitentiaries nationwide.

Steve Case
Reply to  Brad-DXT
November 4, 2022 12:41 pm

“Incitement to riot, vandalism, arson,
extortion, assault and battery…”

You didn’t include “Treason” in your list.

Reply to  Steve Case
November 4, 2022 2:03 pm

I didn’t include murder either. I believe other sentences are available for treason and murder.

Tom Gelsthorpe
November 4, 2022 10:14 am

Much of this enviro-insanity is driven by people who don’t understand the Laws of Thermodynamics, or biochemistry, or much other “science.” It’s guilt-driven gobbledygook by power-hungry busybodies.

Matt Kiro
Reply to  Tom Gelsthorpe
November 5, 2022 4:04 am

Since these people don’t think laws passed by Congress / parliament/ governments don’t apply to them, why would they believe the laws of physics , thermodynamics, etc would apply in the real world either?

November 4, 2022 10:46 am

Have I ever told you I don’t trust the government?

Paul Hurley (aka PaulH)
November 4, 2022 12:29 pm

This is nuts. Methane is an irrelevant greenhouse gas.

Steve Case
Reply to  Paul Hurley (aka PaulH)
November 4, 2022 12:56 pm

This is nuts. Methane is an irrelevant greenhouse gas.

If you Google “Methane times” and select News, you will find page after page of stories about how many times more powerful methane is at trapping heat than CO2, but you will NEVER see any projections/predictions about how much it will run up global temperature.

There’s a reason for that, it’s so small that it’s nearly nothing at all. By 2100 it would maybe account for ~0.04°C of warming.

November 4, 2022 1:20 pm

A little off topic, but they’re now telling people that gas stoves will give their children asthma and elderly parents dementia. Of course, it has everything to do with health and nothing at all to do with forcing people away from natural gas.

November 4, 2022 2:13 pm

I look at this issue simplistically. Why go through an energy conversion to heat homes (from gas to electricity) when the base fuel is abundant and can be used directly, cheaply, and effectively, with existing and widely distributed infrastructure?

Answer: politics.

If it’s driven by politics, it’s bad policy (and not scientific or economic).

jeffery p
November 4, 2022 2:27 pm

Among the many climate progressive fantasies is a belief that creating a regulatory requirement is the same as engineering a solution.

ian Coleman
November 4, 2022 3:01 pm

When I read the proposals for the elimination of fossil fuels as an energy source, I cannot help but think that the people in the top 20 percent by income (who comprise all of the promoters of the proposals) really don’t care about the other 80 percent.

Sometimes, in what is increasingly becoming a social and technological atavism, I watch broadcast TV, which shows you commercials. In commercials that feature actors playing consumers of the products being sold, the characters in the commercials will invariably be shown to live in houses. And not just any houses, but well-appointed houses in prosperous neighbourhoods. Nowadays commercials almost always feature racially diverse casts, but only people in the upper middle class are presented in the commercials. The sellers of consumer products seem indifferent to people who are not upper middle class.

(Here’s another little observation. The characters in car commercials are usually attractive, prosperous-looking people in their late twenties and early thirties.)

Anyway, President Biden’s plans for the transformation of the energy economy will just destroy people who are not quite affluent. And maybe, despite his assurances that he is the President of all Americans, President Biden doesn’t really care about the middle and lower middle class people with whom he has zero personal contact.

November 4, 2022 5:56 pm

November 7 the Supreme Court will hear “Axon v. Federal Trade Commission”. This case could make this issue completely vanish because the above case will determine if rules and regulations may be issued by the federal government. The constitution states that laws must be passed by congress however rules and regulations are backdoor and are not mentioned in the constitution. Rules and regulations date back to a very bad Supreme Court decision  1935 case of Humphrey’s Executor v. U.S. where FDR gained the ability to subvert the constitution. The link goes into more detail and unfortunately it’s a National Review paywall that allows you limited views each month. If you don’t wish to subscribe to the National Review (however I suggest you do) you might want to print a copy for future reference.

Reply to  Dena
November 4, 2022 7:26 pm


Thanks for the heads up, Dena.

I questioned the legal/constitutional authority for the micro-rullings we have seen more and more concerning things better left to we, the people.

Gums sends…

Last edited 2 months ago by Gums
Gregg Eshelman
November 5, 2022 2:33 am

Is it even possible to buy a new gas furnace that’s not a 95% efficient type? They extract so much heat from the flame that the exhaust pipe can be PVC plastic. The combustion chamber and other parts facing the flame or exhaust gasses where temperature is too high for plastic have to be a good grade of stainless steel so that the water formed by combination of unburned hydrogen from the fuel and atmospheric oxygen won’t cause rust and a carbon monoxide leak.

Enlightened Archivist
November 5, 2022 5:15 am

While I hope that the opposition party will be proactive in fighting this insanity, I have more confidence in the power of winter to crush this craziness.

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