The SKY IS FALLING at the PNAS

Dr. Willie Soon alerted me to this story in an email.

Here is the press release for the swivel-eyed professors’ screed.

Every time I read a story, such as this, I get an overwhelming urge to start chanting a famous Passover ritual, the recital of the Ten Plagues: Blood, Frogs, Lice, Pestilence….


Professors call for more research into climate-change related threats to civilization

UNIVERSITY OF BRITISH COLUMBIA

An opinion piece published today in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, a peer-reviewed journal of the National Academy of Sciences, urgently calls for more research into the specific pathways by which civilization could potentially collapse due to climate change.

“Scientists have warned that climate change threatens the habitability of large regions of the Earth and even civilization itself, but surprisingly little research exists about how collapse could happen and what can be done to prevent it,” says Dr. Daniel Steel of the School of Population and Public Health at the University of British Columbia.

“A better understanding of the risks of collapse is essential for climate ethics and policy.”

In the article, Dr. Steel and his colleagues, Dr. C. Tyler DesRoches with Arizona State University’s School of Sustainability and Dr. Kian Mintz-Woo from University College Cork, define civilization collapse as the loss of societal capacity to maintain essential governance functions, especially maintaining security, the rule of law, and the provision of basic necessities such as food and water.

The co-authors consider three civilization collapse scenarios:

  1. localized collapse of specific, vulnerable locations;
  2. the collapse of some urban and national areas while the remaining ones experience detrimental climate-related effects such as food and water scarcity;
  3. global collapse where urban areas around the world are abandoned, nations are no more, and global population falls.

It is not only the direct effects of climate change – such as drought, flooding, and extreme heat – that could create collapse risks, but also less-studied mechanisms.

As Dr. Steel and his co-authors explain, climate change may also have indirect effects on systems like trade and international cooperation, which might in turn lead to political conflict, dysfunction, and war. The authors also state that these effects may lessen civilizations’ adaptability which would leave them vulnerable to other shocks, like pandemics.

“The danger climate change poses to civilization shouldn’t just be left for journalists, philosophers, and filmmakers to ponder. Scientists have a responsibility to investigate this, too,” said Dr. Steel.


JOURNAL

Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences

DOI

10.1073/pnas.2210525119 

METHOD OF RESEARCH

Commentary/editorial

SUBJECT OF RESEARCH

Not applicable

ARTICLE TITLE

Climate change and the threat to civilization

ARTICLE PUBLICATION DATE

6-Oct-2022
From EurekAlert!

Here’s some of the original opinion piece. Dum Dum Dum

In a speech about climate change from April 4th of this year, UN General Secretary António Guterres lambasted “the empty pledges that put us on track to an unlivable world” and warned that “we are on a fast track to climate disaster” (1). Although stark, Guterres’ statements were not novel. Guterres has made similar remarks on previous occasions, as have other public figures, including Sir David Attenborough, who warned in 2018 that inaction on climate change could lead to “the collapse of our civilizations” (2). In their article, “World Scientists’ Warning of a Climate Emergency 2021”—which now has more than 14,700 signatories from 158 countries—William J. Ripple and colleagues state that climate change could “cause significant disruptions to ecosystems, society, and economies, potentially making large areas of Earth uninhabitable” (3).

The consequences of climate change are likely to be dire—and in some scenarios, catastrophic. Scholars need to start discussing the mechanisms whereby climate change could cause the actual collapse of civilizations. Image credit: Flickr/Spencer.

Because civilization cannot exist in unlivable or uninhabitable places, all of the above warnings can be understood as asserting the potential for anthropogenic climate change to cause civilization collapse (or “climate collapse”) to a greater or lesser extent. Yet despite discussing many adverse impacts, climate science literature, as synthesized for instance by assessment reports of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), has little at all to say about whether or under which conditions climate change might threaten civilization. Although a body of scientific research exists on historical and archeological cases of collapse (4), discussions of mechanisms whereby climate change might cause the collapse of current civilizations has mostly been the province of journalists, philosophers, novelists, and filmmakers. We believe that this should change.

Here we call for treating the mechanisms and uncertainties associated with climate collapse as a critically important topic for scientific inquiry. Doing so requires clarifying what “civilization collapse” means and explaining how it connects to topics addressed in climate science, such as increased risks from both fast- and slow-onset extreme weather events. This kind of information, we claim, is crucial for the public and for policymakers alike, for whom climate collapse may be a serious concern. Our analysis builds on the latest research, including Kemp et al.’s PNAS Perspective, which drew attention to the importance of scientifically exploring the ways that climate outcomes can impact complex socioeconomic systems (5). We go further by providing greater detail about societal collapse, for instance, distinguishing three progressively more severe scenarios. Moreover, we emphasize avoiding doom-saying bias and recommend studying collapse mechanisms in conjunction with successful adaptation and resilience, seeing these as two sides of the same coin.

Collapse Scenarios

We define civilization collapse as the loss of societal capacity to maintain essential governance functions, especially maintaining security, the rule of law, and the provision of basic necessities such as food and water. Civilization collapses in this sense could be associated with civil strife, violence, and widespread scarcity, and thus have extremely adverse effects on human welfare. Such collapses can be wider or narrower in scope, so we consider three representative scenarios.

The full opinion piece at the PNAS is here.

I wonder what Roger Pielke Jr. thinks of this one.

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October 8, 2022 6:05 am

I would like to see these supposed pathways to destruction because they will be unbelievable. As it is the threat is conveniently vacuous. Bring it on.

Brad-DXT
Reply to  David Wojick
October 8, 2022 6:49 am

The pathway to destruction is all laid out by the WEF. Elect adherents to this group will assure destruction.
The abandonment of petrochemical industry to follow the Green New Deal is a sure fire way to create shortages of energy and products. The collapse of civil society is sure to follow because people with nothing, have nothing to lose.

Scissor
Reply to  Brad-DXT
October 8, 2022 6:54 am

Biden seems intent on provoking a more devastating Russian exchange.

Brad-DXT
Reply to  Scissor
October 8, 2022 7:12 am

Biden is a sock puppet that they trot out to humiliate the U.S.
Hopefully we can get rid of the decrepit old fool soon.

H.R.
Reply to  Brad-DXT
October 8, 2022 9:48 am

That sock needs darned.

jim king
Reply to  H.R.
October 11, 2022 1:52 pm

Darned to heck?

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Brad-DXT
October 8, 2022 12:41 pm

Those manipulating the sock puppet need to be retired.

Steve Case
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
October 8, 2022 6:04 pm

Those manipulating the sock puppet need to be retired.
______________________________________

Retired? How ’bout tried? Tried for treason.

Maurice Strong said 30 years ago, “Isn’t the only hope for the planet that the industrialized civilizations collapse? Isn’t it our responsibility to bring that about?”

Anyone who actively tries to bring about the collapse of the United States of America should be put on trial for treason.

Old Man Winter
Reply to  Scissor
October 8, 2022 9:07 am

“I cant help but notice that none of the leftists cheering for
Biden and Zelensky to start a nuclear war have volunteered
to go fight on the front lines…”

https://twitter.com/TimRunsHisMouth/status/1578198730297118720

Last edited 3 months ago by Old Man Winter
Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Old Man Winter
October 8, 2022 12:42 pm

They are too stupid to realize the fall out will come to them wherever they are.

Rainer Bensch
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
October 9, 2022 2:02 am

Fall-out? The windmills will blow it away.

DocSiders
Reply to  Scissor
October 8, 2022 12:18 pm

Probably just in time for the Midterm Elections.

Chris Nisbet
Reply to  Brad-DXT
October 8, 2022 10:55 am

After their policies wreck agriculture and the like they will claim that their predictions of catastrophe were correct, falsely attributing the disaster to ‘Climate Change’ and not their ruinous policies.
I suspect that some dark times are ahead.

Doc Chuck
Reply to  Chris Nisbet
October 8, 2022 2:31 pm

Massively engaging in a wasteful fool’s errand at the expense of everything long proven to be salutary — now what could possibly go wrong, just as has happened recurrently over the history of civilization that’s so foreseeable to anyone with a lick of sense?

Reply to  David Wojick
October 8, 2022 7:27 am

Is it droughts? Floods cannot do it. How about 6+ degrees of warming? Every time I hear some fool talk about the threat to humanity I ask How does that go? There is no coherent answer.

Old Man Winter
Reply to  Charles Rotter
October 8, 2022 8:48 am

Source of the Plagues

BidPasso.jpg
Andrew Wilkins
Reply to  Charles Rotter
October 9, 2022 5:23 am

anti-Semites? In the UK they’re always on the left wing of the political spectrum. Racist and bitter little shit-bags.

ATheoK
Reply to  Charles Rotter
October 9, 2022 8:18 am

Don’t forget a drop of wine for every plaque.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Charles Rotter
October 8, 2022 12:44 pm

Are you “author” or “admin?”

Reply to  Charles Rotter
October 8, 2022 12:53 pm

We WARNED you over & over and we were always right; Bobby Kennedy jr., McCullough, Malone, Risch, Tenenbaum, Cole, Wolf, I, etc., we warned you; see short list of some of the things we warned you about | peckford42 (wordpress.com)

It’s over. It’s too late.

REQUIEM
… Any man’s death concerns me, because I am concerned with mankind.
And therefore send not to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee. – John Donne

Old Man Winter
Reply to  David Wojick
October 8, 2022 9:31 am

Unfortunately, with the Climate Cult™, it’s all about fear, not facts!

BTW, I’m looking forward to your report on storage. Now that’s a
real 800-lb gorilla to fear!

Reply to  Old Man Winter
October 8, 2022 11:20 am

Yes storage is impossible. My report is in peer review (sigh). No hints allowed.

Reply to  David Wojick
October 9, 2022 2:03 am

I agree – electricity storage is not a practical solution for grid-connected intermittent wind and solar power.

I can envisage situations where off-grid small users could make it work in remote locations by carefully managing small power consumption with relatively large storage systems, but why bother when a backup Honda generator would suffice.

When was a kid, our family cottages were without grid power – we had lanterns for light and ice boxes for food and gasoline for the water pump and wood for cooking and heat. Ice was cut from the lake in winter and stored in an icehouse all summer. Wood was cut from the surrounding forest. It was just like my grandparents lived before rural electrification came to the farm – been there, done that.

The good people of Western Europe are going to need those primitive systems to survive this winter, thanks to green sabotage of their energy systems and over-reliance on Russian natural gas.
We published these important conclusions in 2002 and nothing has changed. See CorrectPredictions.ca 
Regards, Allan MacRae, B.A.Sc., M.Eng., Calgary  
https://energy-experts-international.com/

Post Script:
My new friend Brian Peckford recently wrote me to say about the Covid and Climate scams:
“No question you were ahead of the game.” 
Brian Peckford is the former Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador and is the last living signor of Canada’s Declaration of Right and Freedoms (1982). At 80 years of age, Brian is working long hours every day to fight the Trudeau government’s criminal abuses of the Charter in the Covid-19 lockdown and vaccine scam. Brian is one of the best people I know.

Gary Pearse
Reply to  David Wojick
October 8, 2022 8:42 am

David, you are missing the point. It’s already “brought on” and these guys want to step ahead of the parade! They want to blame climate change and exculpate “Climate-Policy” as the cause of the mess we are in. They are buffoons, but dangerous buffoons.

Reply to  Gary Pearse
October 8, 2022 11:18 am

We are no where near the end of civilization so that bogus claim still needs serious challenge. “How does it go?” is a very simple question, to which there is no coherent answer. I would love to hear Kerry and Gteta’s answers, both being perpetually incoherent.

Gary Pearse
Reply to  David Wojick
October 8, 2022 12:42 pm

You don’t think there is a serious global cost inflation built in for several years from damage done to fossil fuel markets, supply and prices? These additively impact nitrogen fertilizers-agriculture (fuel used, shipping, processing, distribution, retail…), plastics and virtually everything we, eat wear and use (mining, manufacturing, all sectors -require tiers of shipping and power. It’s worldwide.

A change of governments doesn’t bring instant relief. Industries can’t be induced to invest into a 4yr election cycle. There need to be laws-guarantees, likely even Constitutional amendments to ensure protection of lowest cost efficient and reliable energy and power systems and boilerplate against investment tampering, use of burdensome legislation and regulation for ulterior purposes….to attract investment. Need education rehab and a thousand broken things rededicated….

Dave Fair
Reply to  Gary Pearse
October 8, 2022 2:45 pm

Again, Vaclav Smil’s “How the World Really Works” is required reading for anybody wanting to gain an appreciation of the magnitude of the problems for Nut Zero.

Reply to  Dave Fair
October 9, 2022 3:14 am

How the World Really Works Quotes by Vaclav Smil (goodreads.com)

All good quotes – all well-known to true energy experts; all unknown to most media and politicians who promote dysfunctional energy policies like wind and solar power generation and nonsensical carbon reduction schemes.

We are governed by scoundrels and imbeciles.

IAMPCBOB
Reply to  Allan MacRae
October 12, 2022 11:54 am

ALL life on earth is carbon based! Removing the carbon (an impossible and Imbecilic endeavor) from the earth would mean the end of ALL life forms, including humans! So, what kind of an imbecile WANTS this to happen? Assuming it were even possible!

IAMPCBOB
Reply to  Dave Fair
October 12, 2022 11:50 am

If wind power and solar energy were the BEST way to power our civilization, then WHY didn’t people pursue them instead of drilling for such an filthy form of energy as petroleum? Never mind that you get more bang for your buck from oil! Think of all the byproducts that come from petroleum! Not many byproducts come from wind power OR solar energy!

Reply to  Gary Pearse
October 9, 2022 3:02 am

Hi Gary, I share your concerns – the woke left have done enormous harm to our society, through the Climate and Covid scams. They have wasted trillions of dollars of scarce global resources on these destructive scams and have cost millions of lives. As I have written elsewhere, this is not mere incompetence, this is their Plan – “The Road to Venezuela – Poverty and Dictatorship”.
Here are some of their woke “achievements”:

  • The destruction of vital energy systems, attacking fossil fuels with their fraudulent Climate scare and sabotaging our energy systems with intermittent wind and solar power generation and anti-pipeline nonsense.
  • The destruction of small businesses through the needless Covid-19 lockdown scam.
  • Damage to our education systems through the teaching of false leftist propaganda such as the Climate scams and socialist economics that have always failed in practice.
  • The damage to our education systems and our children through the lockdowns.
  • The millions of Covid-19 toxic “vaccine” deaths and injuries that will continue to grow for years, crippling human health and the birth rates.
  • Excessive government spending that drives inflation, interest rates, business bankruptcies and mortgage defaults and leads to government defaults on the debt.

I have predicted a major cull of the elderly and poor in Britain and Germany this winter. Government changes there may help, but it is probably too late to solve the problems that are virtually “locked in” for this winter.
Meanwhile the governments or the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc are still governed by woke criminals that are committed to increasing the harm.
I have predicted a human catastrophe in Europe this Winter – I hope to be wrong. but my predictive track record for the past 20 years on Climate-and-Energy and the Covid-19 Lockdowns-and-Vaccines is excellent to date. I think corrective measures are possible, but European governments are moving too slow, or not at all to remedy this grave situation.

IAMPCBOB
Reply to  David Wojick
October 12, 2022 11:45 am

Being perpetually incoherent is a known trademark of liberals.

IAMPCBOB
Reply to  Gary Pearse
October 12, 2022 11:43 am

Buffoons never seem to know that they are buffoons! In fact, they assume that THEY are the brightest and smartest! It never occurs to them that they just ‘might’ be the dumbest people that ever lived!

Reply to  David Wojick
October 8, 2022 12:28 pm

I called out these woke imbeciles a decade ago, in the following post:

http://www.drroyspencer.com/wp-content/uploads/UAH_LT_1979_thru_July_2012.png
 
To:
Heads of Departments,
Proceedings, National Academy of Sciences (PNAS)
 
Dear PNAS Heads…
________________________

They were rank bullsh!tters in 2012 and they’re rank bullsh!tters now.

“Non, je ne regrette rien.”

Last edited 3 months ago by Allan MacRae
R Taylor
October 8, 2022 6:11 am

Fortunately, the good professors don’t have to travel far from verdant Point Grey to study civilization collapse. Just take a bus to East Hastings. If they are truly dedicated, they could take a (tedious) EV road trip to Seattle, Portland, San Fran and LA. All fine examples of collapse and, no doubt, the professors will conclude the common factor is carbon dioxide not “liberal” governance.

Brad-DXT
Reply to  R Taylor
October 8, 2022 6:56 am

It is not liberal governance but “progressive” governance.
The progressives think the book 1984 is a guidebook and have been changing the definitions of words (Newspeak) for decades. They have progressed away from the Constitution for at least a century.

Michael in Dublin
Reply to  Brad-DXT
October 8, 2022 7:14 am

In my book neo-liberal and progressive is interchangeable. I do, however, see a number of elderly “classic” liberal journalists and historians rejecting the climate alarmist hogwash.

Last edited 3 months ago by Michael in Dublin
Reply to  Brad-DXT
October 10, 2022 8:03 am

BRAD – IN 1984, SOVIET DEFECTOR YURI BEZMANOV TOLD US THE TRUTH AND WE IGNORED HIS WARNING… AND HERE WE ARE, JUST AS HE SAID!

There was a good reason I published this paper in the USA on July 4. You are intellectually defeated.

Regards, Allan MacRae

THE COST TO SOCIETY OF RADICAL ENVIRONMENTALISM July 4, 2019
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/07/04/the-cost-to-society-of-radical-environmentalism/
“Global warming and climate change alarmism was never about the science – it was always a false narrative, a smokescreen for the totalitarian objectives of the extreme left.”
(excerpt)

1. Introduction.

Ever wonder why extremists attack honest scientists who oppose global warming and climate change hysteria? Ever wonder why climate extremists refuse to debate the science?

It is because global warming and climate change alarmism was never about the science – it was always a false narrative, a smokescreen for the totalitarian objectives of the extreme left.

The novel “Nineteen Eighty-Four”, written by George Orwell in 1949, foresaw a time “when much of the world has fallen victim to perpetual war, omnipresent government surveillance, historical negationism and propaganda”. It now appears that Orwell had remarkable foresight.

Here is the real “Nineteen Eighty-Four”, an interview that year with ex-KGB officer and Soviet defector Yuri Bezmenov, who described their long-term program to ideologically undermine the western democracies. Listen to Bezmenov’s discussion of “ideological subversion”. It is all about manipulating the “useful idiots” – the pro-Soviet leftists within the democracies.

One commenter on the video wrote: “this is crazy, almost everything predicted by this guy is already happening.” Bernie Sanders, AOC and other socialist-Democrats are openly saying what Bezmenov predicted decades ago. The last democracies are under attack defeated by leftist extremists.

Reply to  Allan MacRae
October 10, 2022 8:25 am

Typo: “Bezmenov” is correct.

Scissor
Reply to  R Taylor
October 8, 2022 7:19 am

BTW, the accompanying picture of a beach with refinery behind is from Aruba. The closest beach to the refinery is Roger’s beach which, despite the unsightly spectacle of the refinery, is rated as 4.5 out of 5 and is noted for an abundance of sea life.

Tom Halla
October 8, 2022 6:13 am

Trying to actually carry out The Green New Deal, Net Zero, or the Energiewende are most likely to create collapse.
What is more likely is a situation like Sri Lanka, with demonstrators occupying the President’s house, and running the politicians pushing such policies out of the country. Which would be armageddon for such politicians.

Ron Long
October 8, 2022 6:15 am

In a CAGW scenario (now Climate Collapse?) the 80% of Canadians living within 100 miles of the USA border could spread out to the north? Wait a minute, NASA reports that the Sahara is also “greening”? Looks like civilization can just “keep on keeping on” and adapt a little, in the traditional way.

mkelly
October 8, 2022 6:16 am

Now I understand the reason for the “defund police” policy. The lack of law and order will collapse civilization. Then the collapse can be blamed on cleated change. Then all bets are off for what can be done.

Scissor
Reply to  mkelly
October 8, 2022 6:56 am

And empty the prisons. What could go wrong?

October 8, 2022 6:19 am

The only thing that’s in danger of collapsing is the Russian bridge in the Crimea!

Gary Pearse
Reply to  Sweet Old Bob
October 8, 2022 8:58 am

Wattsup with these tech lemmings self-immolating with their censorship? Facebook lost 75% of its value with its totalitarian adventure. Who is stupid enough to keep an account with PayPal if they can take 2500 out of your Visa for going against neomarxist dogma?

Climate believer
Reply to  Gary Pearse
October 8, 2022 9:27 am

I totally agree, but WUWT has a paypal donate button, I don’t know if that means they have an account there but it might be wise for them to start looking elsewhere.

Paypal is not the only show in town.

Richard Page
Reply to  Sweet Old Bob
October 8, 2022 10:23 am

Forget about the issues with disinformation or not just for the moment – what right do Paypal have to levy fines on users? Who gave them the authority to regulate internet content? Surely one court case and Paypal would be the one levied with fines for extortion, fraudulent charges and overreach? They are a criminal organisation.

Gregory Woods
Reply to  Alastair Brickell
October 8, 2022 9:54 am

Wrong, again…

D. J. Hawkins
Reply to  Gregory Woods
October 8, 2022 10:13 am

He’s 50% right…

Richard Page
Reply to  D. J. Hawkins
October 8, 2022 2:37 pm

50% right is also 50% wrong.

tgasloli
October 8, 2022 6:21 am

“Method of Research
Commentary/Editorial”

Seriously, in a peer reviewed science journal published by the National Academy of Science.

In America, science is dead.

H. D. Hoese
Reply to  tgasloli
October 8, 2022 7:34 am

Talk about a bandwagon, 27 references,17 from 2020-22, earliest are two in 2012. Titles mostly appear similar, maybe a couple are close to real science. Authors are from university organizations with “Sustainability, Applied Ethics, and Equity and Justice.”
https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2210525119
This isn’t science at all, except for the attempt by the publisher, belongs elsewhere.

Reply to  tgasloli
October 8, 2022 7:51 am

Climate science is certainly near dead. NAS is all in for geo engineering and rapid net zero.
https://www.nationalacademies.org/topics/climate

Gary Pearse
Reply to  David Wojick
October 8, 2022 10:06 am

They want to geoengineer so they can say they saved us on the brink! They know now that their won’t be any harmful climate change and the want to take credit.

Dave Fair
Reply to  David Wojick
October 8, 2022 2:58 pm

In looking at NAS’s description of its work they omit the actual science of climate change. Extreme weather is not increasing, contrary to what they say.

Alexy Scherbakoff
Reply to  Clyde Spencer
October 8, 2022 2:56 pm

Poor babies.

Rud Istvan
October 8, 2022 6:23 am

With more such research, these three authors would get their piece of the pie. No self interest there at all.

October 8, 2022 6:27 am

You want to see society collapse? Keep voting in these leftist wing nuts and our society will (is) collapse(ing).

Gary Pearse
Reply to  Steve Clough
October 8, 2022 9:05 am

The voting rules in place and corrupable voting machines are designed to keep these clux in power. In France (and in California) the voting rules are keeping challengers out of the picture.

Old Man Winter
October 8, 2022 6:30 am

volcdeni.jpg
John Oliver
Reply to  Old Man Winter
October 8, 2022 8:59 am

A another one in the legislature one might classify as “dingbattiusmaximus” alot of these people truly believe.

paul
Reply to  Old Man Winter
October 8, 2022 3:59 pm

by those eyes she looks like a drugged up robot puking out what he/she/it has been
programed to spout off about.

Kevin
October 8, 2022 6:42 am

Ironically, Dr. Steel himself is not a scientist.

https://philosophy.ubc.ca/profile/daniel-steel/

strativarius
October 8, 2022 6:48 am

Here’s a thought.

Round up all the academics and put them in a camp. Then weed out the ones who really are so deranged they will make [any nonsensical] neo-religious claims about the Earth’s climate and how evil Hom Sap really is.

If they hate you, they aren’t fighting for you.

It’s clear to me, at least, that these misanthropes are utterly bonkers.

Strativarius
Reply to  strativarius
October 8, 2022 8:15 am

I should have added that I referred to the Parncutt method

Sweet Old Bob
Reply to  Strativarius
October 8, 2022 8:44 am

“the Parncutt method ”

Parncutt is a nasty dude !

Editor
October 8, 2022 6:50 am

Does one pronounce PNAS as pin ass?

Regards,
Bob Tisdale

AZeeman
Reply to  That ENSO Guy
October 8, 2022 9:16 am

Pinheads, Not Actual Scientists

markl
October 8, 2022 7:19 am

You’d think with all the talk of “settled science” and tipping points we’ve passed more effort would be placed on mitigation if they really believed their narrative.

Dave Fair
Reply to  markl
October 8, 2022 3:01 pm

Do you mean “adaptation?” The CC profiteers use “mitigation” for things like Nut Zero.

Scissor
October 8, 2022 7:22 am

My climate crisis today is it’s cold and in solidarity with Germany I will leave my furnace off until it’s really cold.

D. J. Hawkins
Reply to  Scissor
October 8, 2022 10:18 am

The HVAC was officially switched to “HEAT” last week. Currently 54°F in the north of the People’s Republic of New Jerseystan.

Scissor
Reply to  D. J. Hawkins
October 8, 2022 12:18 pm

I’m just outside the People’s Republic of Boulder and it was into the 40’s last night. It’s supposed to warm up to 64F this afternoon, which is the temperature in my living room at the moment.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  D. J. Hawkins
October 8, 2022 12:54 pm

Got a light frost in SW Ohio last night.

Peter W
Reply to  Scissor
October 8, 2022 5:09 pm

We moved to central Florida a few years ago to get away from that terrible global warming up north. Our HVA system here is set for daytime 71 degrees minimum, 80 maximum. The past couple of weeks it has hardly run at all, and I have started wearing a long-sleeved shirt. Our electric bill should be much lower this month; it is usually less than $100 for our small old 6 room retirement home.

The eye of the past hurricane went right over us at about 2:30 a.m. No damage, just some fallen small branches and a few loose leaves.

October 8, 2022 7:35 am

The ‘Pathways to Destruction’ always need more MONEY for more further studies to save the world and to save us !!!! HaHa

Meisha
October 8, 2022 7:36 am

It was bad enough when “climate scientists” were shouting alarm…one could understand their livelihoods depended on it. And there were only a few doing the shouting — possibly as few as a couple of dozen. At least they were studying physical processes, even though such might comprise a non-stationary chaotic system and thereby be unpredictable within any human-scale time-period (decades, if not centuries).
 
Worse, though still within the bounds of societal sanity, was when politicians and other pundits (media, Hollywood, etc.) began warning of dire societal consequences, calling for “climate action.”
 
And, using the common metaphor of “tipping point,” we may now have arrived at the edge of self-induced societal collapse through misguided leadership as we watch with held breaths as Europe faces a winter in which economic and individual self-destruction may begin to reflect the growing societal insanity; especially if factors other than “green” policies (i.e., Putin) become the scapegoat.
 
But now, the NAS, supposedly one of the ultimate arbiters of logic and fact (i.e., science), goes beyond its purview of the physical world and demands we spend resources illuminating in word and ideas — as did our medieval forebears in gold-leaf images — the “possible pathways” of societal destruction that could be caused by unmanaged climate change when the societal destruction that they fear is occurring right in front of them through man-made activities designed to avert the societal destruction they want studied.
 
Shakespeare would find the irony of mistaken beliefs, even more than that of mistaken identities, such wonderful fodder. Oh, but fodder leads to methane….
 
The insanity is building to such a degree that Western society may indeed have reached a tipping point. If we continue down this path of “green” policies further we will not be able to survive. The insanity has reached deep into our “intelligentsia.” These are the people who control our fate. They may be beyond political rectification.
 
With our economic system “captured” by these ideas — as it clearly is — there is no meaningful reservoir of resistance. Europe is the canary in the coal mine — lovely metaphor for the situation, don’t you think? If they muddle and deflect and continue to stumble down the road they’re on, collapse and chaos will ensue. Religious people do not wake up one morning in the middle of disaster and realize their religion is at fault. No. They often double down.
 
History has it wrong. Civilizations do not collapse because of external events such as invasions and pestilence, as we are taught in school. Civilizations collapse because the belief system that created and sustained their success changes and a new, ineffective belief system takes over, which causes the collapse.
 
I’ll hold out my last hope that, if Europe does experience disaster due to its energy policies, wiser leaders will be empowered to reverse the climate insanity that was its cause and be successful in turning back the madness. And that this sea-change (not sea-rise) will be the wave of the future. I think the odds are hard against that outcome. It will have to happen in Europe in the next 5 years if it will happen at all. And then there is the US.

Ronald Havelock
Reply to  Meisha
October 9, 2022 1:30 pm

The oil companies have the money and the potential power to put a lie to the windmill lovers. Why don’t these sleeping giants wake up?

Climate believer
October 8, 2022 7:51 am

These are very sick people.

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Climate believer
October 8, 2022 8:10 am

Reality deniers.

Dave Fair
Reply to  Climate believer
October 8, 2022 3:05 pm

Or just very greedy people.

Ronald Havelock
Reply to  Dave Fair
October 9, 2022 1:32 pm

greed masked by the self-righteousness of environmentalism

Fred Hubler
October 8, 2022 7:52 am

“Mr. Turnbull had predicted evil consequences, . . . and was now doing the best in his power to bring about the verification of his own prophecies.” Anthony Trollope  

This is becoming more and more obvious every day.

Gary Pearse
October 8, 2022 7:55 am

“Isn’t the only hope for the planet that the industrialized civilizations collapse? Isn’t it our responsibility to bring that about?”

Canadian Maurice Strong, self-claimed communist billionaire, creator of the UN Stockholm Conference on the Environment (1972), the UNFCC, the Rio Conference, Kyoto, and the IPCC. Things are going as planned. The Profs in this piece want to get ahead of a parade already half over. The damage to Civilization is well on it’s way, not from CC but because of “Policy-Caused^тм” wreckage fronted by phony Climate Change. This is a juvenile attempt to deflect the blame for the damage and reinforce the Solution.

Editor
October 8, 2022 8:33 am

Yawnnnnnn…….. Zzzzzzzz…….Snnnnnxxxxxx!

Frank from NoVA
October 8, 2022 8:35 am

Abe Lincoln and Woody Wilson were instrumental in the foundation and mission of the NAS, which has evolved over time to placing a scientific halo over the Federal government’s interventions into the private sector, aka, your life.

At some point it will become imperative that the ‘science’ behind CAGW alarmism be critically examination by a ‘red team’, whose only criteria is the comparison of physical evidence to CAGW theory per the scientific method.

Should the results of such a study clearly not support the alarmist narrative, then those institutions that support the narrative, e.g., the IPCC, EPA, NASA, etc., should be given a reasonable period to challenge the red team’s findings. However, if the former are unsuccessful OR unresponsive in their challenges, they will be given the choice of either removing their support of CAGW or cutting all ties to the Federal government.

Dave Fair
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
October 8, 2022 3:11 pm

As has been repeatedly stated, the UN IPCC was set up to provide studies supporting governments’ politicians in their climate negotiations. The science says one thing, the UN IPCC politicians say another. UN IPCC reports’ SPMs are purely political statements, with some sciency sounding nonsense added.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Dave Fair
October 9, 2022 8:59 am

Correct. And should a rigorous analysis of physical data lead to a rejection of CAGW theory, the UN would either have to disavow the IPCC’s climate alarmist narrative or lose US support of, and participation in, its activities.

Ronald Havelock
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
October 9, 2022 1:45 pm

a great idea

Ronald Havelock
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
October 9, 2022 1:44 pm

The “red team” is a great idea, but, for starters, we need to have a committee of some sort, ruthlessly bi-partisan or non-political, to set down a definition for what is “science” and “scientific evidence.” The NAS and AAAS administrators should have been able to do this long ago, but their devotion to Malthus, a non-scientist, has apparently incapacitated them.
It should not be that hard to do.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Ronald Havelock
October 10, 2022 8:52 am

“…but, for starters, we need to have a committee of some sort, ruthlessly bi-partisan or non-political, to set down a definition for what is “science” and “scientific evidence.”

I respectfully disagree. The ‘science’ and its government funding have been overtly partisan for over two decades, so much so that the fact that a large number of scientists, engineers and economists are skeptical of alarmist narratives is telling.

What’s needed is a President who is brave enough to go very public to reiterate Eisenhower’s warning re. the dangers of government science, hence the need to appoint a ‘red-team’ to review the evidence in accordance with the scientific method. And since, the results of that inquiry will be very public, and will have to stand or fall on their own merit, there’s no reason to appoint anyone to the red-team who’s clearly in the tank for climate alarmism.

October 8, 2022 8:39 am

The bigger the threat, the more extreme the justified counter measures. The parallels between Kremlin and climate change propaganda are chilling. Especially so, if you consider the sole purpose of these invented threats is in justifying what is meant to come.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  E. Schaffer
October 8, 2022 9:21 am

When you say ‘Kremlin’, are you referring to pre- or post-collapse of the USSR. I can see parallels in the former, as both the USSR and climate change alarmists supported totalitarian means towards a collectivist end , not so much the latter.

AZeeman
October 8, 2022 9:02 am

Out of curiosity, how many scientists constitute a consensus? Note, that the answer must be supported by a consensus or at least sufficient authority in consensus science.

H.R.
Reply to  AZeeman
October 8, 2022 10:23 am

That’s tricky. It seems maybe it only takes one Mann for a consensus.

rah
October 8, 2022 9:03 am

Don’t look now you ivory tower egg heads but western civilization is already collapsing due in large part to the green agenda you simpleton morons have been pushing for decades.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  rah
October 8, 2022 9:26 am

After you hang up your keys, you should consider public service – your common sense is sorely needed here.

rah
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
October 8, 2022 10:56 am

I’m 67 y/o and in another year or so plan to retire. When I hang up my keys my time will be my own. I have already spent nearly 12 years of my life serving this nation full time on hazardous duty. When the time comes I intend on scratching a few things off my bucket list.

Reply to  rah
October 8, 2022 12:26 pm

Do it sooner rather than later … you never know what’s / who’s around the corner !!!

Jeff Reppun
October 8, 2022 9:09 am

What’s the bet that these studies are being financed by China? There’s only money and power to be made by them in encouraging us to destroy our energy system. That is happening at MIT.

Frank from NoVA
Reply to  Jeff Reppun
October 8, 2022 9:29 am

Seems a reasonable bet, given the authorship of most of the papers featured on Eureka Alert these days.

Terry
October 8, 2022 9:29 am

If society collapes it come from all out war between all will the people whose standard of living is being destroyed and the elites who are doing it.

John Robertson
October 8, 2022 9:34 am

We define civilization collapse as the loss of societal capacity to maintain essential governance functions, especially maintaining security, the rule of law, and the provision of basic necessities such as food and water. “

So a society that casts out the deadwood,like these “experts”,will remain “civilized”?
That is good to know.

Save civilization ..Banish the useless and clueless to reservations befitting their beliefs.

Gang Green being a perfect example of a group of people who should be banished from any civilization that uses its resources in place of human slavery.
They belong on special reserves.
Placed in the High Arctic,where that warming is happening like never before,faster than anywhere else on earth.
Stripped of all technologies and fabrics they decry.
Encouraged to show us all the “carbon Free” way.

And this is not a hardhearted nor cynical take.
They loudly proclaim their hatred and intolerance of our luxurious lifestyles and our usage of hydrocarbon energy in place of human servants..
Everything about them is wrong ,a sin against Giai,(Their God).
And every act of destruction they commit somehow justified by their belief..
So? Cast them out.
Let them show us ,nonbelievers,the true path forward..

All I would insist on,is the rights to the drone footage,that must circle above them day and night ensuring they stay on their righteous path..
For such educational material would long outlive these cultists and provide much needed records to prevent the loss of future children’s minds.

Thus saving,potentially, civilization from collapse.

For there is no cure for stupid.

John Robertson
October 8, 2022 9:41 am

Actually I meant to question their assumption of civilization.
Seems to me civilization is a shared myth.
And when that myth falters,it becomes every man and tribe for themselves.

So is the definition of “civilization” used by these credentialed persons,adequate for their discussion?

Gums
Reply to  John Robertson
October 8, 2022 10:12 am

Salute!

I am getting very paranoid about all the programs and laws and rules and regulations and , and, and….. And you cannot find one “scientist”, a single one, that will predict to a half a degree or a millimeter of sea level rise in 10 years if they bet a $million or rights to their firstborn or … or…. willingness to go off the grid and use windmills plus EV panels to power and heat their home in Fairbanks Alaska this winter!! Or Bodo Norway. Or Bemiji MN in lower 48. No fossil fuels allowed for any reason, not even a chain saw to cut down trees for fuel, or a snowmobile to go get groceries.

I am searching for a way to “educate” the masses about what the climate change stuff/agenda is about, and the undue emphasis upon carbon dioxide as the evil source of all our modeled woes yet to come. That, to me, is the key element, and if the C02 is not the driver, then the whole house of cards cumbles, huh?

What would happen if the infamous 97% admitted that humans impact climate but that 97% of the impact is not due to humans? And how many tenths of a degree will the Earth global temperature be in ten years or 20 years or 50 years if all countries in the world reduced their emissions of carbon dioxide to zero this night!!

Somehow we WUWT bloggers and other educated folks have to come up with a means of educating the masses… educating the poly-tickians is beyond most folks’ ability or chances of success, so I place my bet on ordinary folks that have not gone into the “day after” mode cause they had a warmer summer or fall.

Gums ends rant….

Last edited 3 months ago by Gums
Dave Fair
Reply to  John Robertson
October 9, 2022 2:33 pm

No matter the definition, at the collapse of civilization count me in with the tribe that has weapons and farm land. City dwellers and suburbanites will die-off quickly and those that flee (especially marauders) will be harshly dealt with by people protecting their property and hard-won material gains. Local National Guard units, along with their military equipment, will help defend the rural areas.

Nik
October 8, 2022 9:52 am

The threat to civilization is not the climate or changes to it. The threat is what the ignorant, misguided, guilt-ridden, and power-hungry people are doing to it.

CD in Wisconsin
Reply to  Nik
October 8, 2022 11:39 am

Exactly what I keep saying Nik. The biggest threat to humanity is its own ignorance.

jack
October 8, 2022 10:45 am

Over at AndThenTheresPhysics, they are pushing the story line that mostly only global warming skeptics use the term ‘catastrophic’. I guess they don’t know how to use Google Scholar.

https://andthentheresphysics.wordpress.com/2022/10/07/no-a-cherry-picked-analysis-doesnt-demonstrate-that-were-not-in-a-climate-crisis/

Dave Fair
Reply to  jack
October 9, 2022 2:42 pm

Unbelievable! A so-called science blog says that even if we can’t currently detect increasing extreme weather, we should act because it could or may happen in the future. And quoting the UN IPCC CliSciFi AR6 politician-written SPM (which ignores the science in the body of the report) is a dereliction in the duty of science to evaluate the data completely and honestly.

It is sad that most people will believe this Leftist ideological drivel.

Dave Fair
Reply to  Dave Fair
October 9, 2022 4:37 pm

Here is my response to ATTP:

Dave Fair says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
October 10, 2022 at 12:24 am
I just wasted a chunk of my rapidly-reducing lifespan reading the above mostly science-free speculation. The conclusion I see is “damn the actual data, science and economics, full speed ahead to Net Zero.” And “don’t believe any of those studies conducted by narrative non-believers.” You don’t seem to understand that the UN IPCCC reports’ SPMs are written by politicians, not scientists and do not reflect the underlying data and science actually contained in the reports’ bodies and referenced studies.
Have none of you read Vaclav Smil’s “The Way the World Really Works?” Had you, you would not have made some of the above fact-free, reality-denying and speculative comments. You would also realize that Net Zero is physically, technically and economically impossible. No country can fundamentally remake its society, economy and energy systems in less than three decades. Clever, well-funded sophistry (as reflected by the above) cannot change that fact.
I suggest you take this show on the road and convince China, India and the rest of the developing world of the correctness of your problem analyses and the feasibility of your proposed solutions. Those developing countries are already eating our industrial and scientific lunches. Trying to get to the impossible Nut Zero will just accelerate the West’s decline. Oh, and that eventuality really matters to the peoples of the West in light of their declining standards of living.
Trash-canning this comment will not negate its truths.”

I don’t have high hopes for its surviving moderation.

george1st:)
October 8, 2022 10:57 am

Meanwhile Putin is threatening to use nuclear weapons , the US army wants to cut its emissions and Biden says armageddon is upon us .
Can Jo Brandon save us ? does he even know what day it is ?

AndyHce
October 8, 2022 11:21 am

They seem to be describing the results of net-zero and the rest of climate policy.

Peta of Newark
October 8, 2022 11:48 am

You really don’t get any more ‘twee‘ than this

Slowroll
October 8, 2022 11:58 am

Seems to me the biggest climate threat to civilization is the continuance of climate policy destroying all our workable, reliable forms of energy.

Clyde Spencer
Reply to  Slowroll
October 8, 2022 1:01 pm

Lest there be any question about liberals being stupid, they are the ones who will be most at risk when the thin veneer of civilization is removed and they will be left to face the Vandals alone, unarmed.

DocSiders
October 8, 2022 12:15 pm

It’s a LOT EASIER to plot the Destruction of Civilization
… if we can’t rid the World of Fake Science Academies and Fake Scientists.

We are watching the Game of “Destruction of Western Civilization” right now…we’re in the bottom of the 5th inning. The Game started in 1989.

Bob
October 8, 2022 12:32 pm

More repetitious trash, please tell me these scoundrels didn’t get paid for this crap. I can summarize this report without all the gibberish. (They are saying that the social scientists are more afraid of CAGW than the physical scientists and the physical scientists should be afraid also.) Bunch of crackpots.

Clyde Spencer
October 8, 2022 12:40 pm

… urgently calls for more research into the specific pathways by which civilization could potentially collapse due to climate change.

This is important because civilizations never collapsed when the population on Earth was too small to have an impact on climate.

michael hart
October 8, 2022 1:16 pm

Same old same old. As usual, they claim to already know the results of the research they want more funding for.

Ronald Havelock
Reply to  michael hart
October 9, 2022 2:01 pm

Yes, Michael, that kind of government funding is what you can really call “sustainability.”

It doesnot add up
October 8, 2022 1:36 pm

The real threat is of course succumbing to the green mantras, leading to energy poverty, real poverty, hunger, loss of employment, illness and disease and death.

John V. Wright
October 8, 2022 1:38 pm

“Scientists have a responsibility to investigate…” said Dr. Steel.

Boy, ain’t that the truth…

Ed B
October 8, 2022 1:40 pm

A heartfelt plea by the guy to get more money from government to fund travel all over the world to check out how countries are doing.

Chris Hanley
October 8, 2022 2:02 pm

The photo used in the PNAS article is fake, the clue is what looks like a woman’s head floating in the water near the opposite beach without a body attached.
The refinery is on the Caribbean island Aruba off the coast of Venezuela, a self-governing territory of the Netherlands.
The faked photo originated on the desmog website (say no more).

Chris Hanley
Reply to  Chris Hanley
October 8, 2022 2:34 pm

It could be a man’s head, anyway it’s a bodiless head.

Last edited 3 months ago by Chris Hanley
Dave Fair
Reply to  Chris Hanley
October 9, 2022 2:46 pm

To be charitable, it could be deeper water or a swell.

Captain climate
October 8, 2022 2:13 pm

We don’t know what’s going to happen, but if will be bad, we guarantee it.

BobM
October 8, 2022 2:53 pm

Every one of those pathways to societal destruction will begin with the loss of reliable electricity.

Gunga Din
October 8, 2022 5:56 pm

Sounds like the results of the policies to “fight” climate change.

Old Cocky
October 8, 2022 6:10 pm

The proposed scope seems rather limited, but enumerating and quantifying potential major threats seems a worthwhile exercise.

As others have pointed out, there are a number of other factors which should also be in scope.

Dave Fair
Reply to  Old Cocky
October 9, 2022 2:52 pm

But Mankind’s emission of CO2 has nothing to do with potential major threats. The only thing they have are UN IPCC CliSciFi climate models that have, time-after-time, conclusively shown to be less than worthless. Why waste money so some humanities grads can mentally masturbate about the unknowable future. We don’t even plan to respond to current weather disasters.

Old Cocky
Reply to  Dave Fair
October 9, 2022 3:26 pm

Plan for the worst; hope for the best.

Your example of current weather disasters supports that approach.

Thomas S
October 8, 2022 7:23 pm

Global warming can cause civilizations collapse.
Looks like he civilizations will collapse because of the actions taken by the global warming alarmists to stop global warming.
In climate change area, the “cure” is a lot worse than the disease!

October 8, 2022 8:25 pm

Does this mean someone actually found good evidence that man’s CO2 is causing serious global; warming?

Ronald Havelock
Reply to  JimK
October 9, 2022 2:06 pm

That’s right. You’ve got it. There is NO real evidence.Hey, mom! The emperor really has no clothes on at all!

Dave Fair
Reply to  JimK
October 9, 2022 4:53 pm

When using only rural land temperature measurements, the problem goes away. See Anthony and others’ siting review work.

Eric Vieira
October 9, 2022 1:22 am

Loss of “essential governance functions, especially maintaining security, the rule of law ”
That already seems to be gone … Food and water is coming soon … but not due to climate change.

Mark Pawelek
October 9, 2022 1:39 am

Doomers want us to fund their apocalypse fantasies. Bigger, more expensive computers Who’d thunk that!

DipChip
October 9, 2022 5:15 am

The most likely cause of civilization collapse is the woke mind. Diversity is an antonym of integration.

DipChip
Reply to  DipChip
October 9, 2022 5:18 am

Today’s university education is the headmaster of civilization collapse

Editor
October 9, 2022 5:36 am

The co-authors ignore the obvious civilization collapse scenario: F all happens.

Tim Gorman
October 9, 2022 5:37 am

Because civilization cannot exist in unlivable or uninhabitable places, all of the above warnings can be understood as asserting the potential for anthropogenic climate change to cause civilization collapse (or “climate collapse”) to a greater or lesser extent. “

What planet do these people live on? What history do they know and where did they learn it?

Human civilizations have thrived on this planet from the Arctic to the equator to the desert from time immemorial.

define civilization collapse as the loss of societal capacity to maintain essential governance functions, especially maintaining security, the rule of law, and the provision of basic necessities such as food and water.”

All of the above civilizations provided security, the rule of law, and the provision of basic necessities. Did some of the civilizations use brutal means for doing so? Absolutely. But we see a global progression today toward the very same methods even in our so-called “Western Civilization”. Feudalism and fascism are nothing more than the “better-class” telling the “not-better class” how to live and what to think. The progressives of today see themselves as part of the “better-class” and the rest of us as the “not-better class” and think they have an inborn right to tell us in the not-better class how to live and what to think.

Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it. It’s what’s happening today.

Hayek wrote in “The Road to Serfdom”: “Where freedom was concerned, the founders
of socialism made no bones about their intentions. Freedom of thought they regarded as the root-evil of nineteenth-century society, and the first of modern planners, Saint-Simon, even predicted that those who did not obey his proposed planning boards would be “treated as cattle”.”

It’s where we are headed today.

Dave Fair
Reply to  Tim Gorman
October 9, 2022 5:00 pm

Who to trust: A multitude of people trying to maximize their individual benefit in a cooperative manner using free market principles or a bunch of bureaucrats trying to maximize the approval of their political masters. For historical guidance see the Soviet Union, Communist China, North Korea & etc. vs the West, especially the U.S.

Mike Maguire
October 9, 2022 9:10 am

You mean like the collapse of the polar bear population that caused their numbers to increase by 30% the last 2 decades?

or the collapse in crop production that caused 2 decades of record yields?

Or the collapse of the biosphere that caused the planet to massively green up for 3 decades?

or the collapse of the Great Barrier Reef that has resulted in record high coral?

Yes, that’s exactly the types of collapses they are referring to! The kind that get you really scared but never happen!

Dave Fair
Reply to  Mike Maguire
October 9, 2022 2:55 pm

Great way to put it, Mike.

Andy Pattullo
October 10, 2022 9:19 am

“Because civilization cannot exist in unlivable or uninhabitable places, all of the above warnings can be understood as asserting the potential for anthropogenic climate change to cause civilization collapse (or “climate collapse”) to a greater or lesser extent.”

And yet the most densely populated areas of the US include Los Angeles, New York, Portland and San Francisco, places where political conditions are such that any sane person would flee in an instant.

Andy Pattullo
October 10, 2022 9:24 am

May I have some of the grant money for this pet project. I can, in very short order, describe in fine detail the collapse of civil society when reglaciation takes place possibly within 500-1000 years. I can’t see how IPCC reports and annual climate change gab-fests in exotic locations can continue under a few miles of ice. Once that all stops we will be doomed by unmitigated catastrophic anthropogenic global warming. Then the next interglacial will be nothing less than a human barbecue.

Last edited 3 months ago by Andy Pattullo
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