Germany’s “Tenfold Increase in Gas and Electricity Prices” Is Driving Out Industry

From the NoTricksZone

By P Gosselin 

Europe’s energy policy is creating jobs – for USA  

What leaves once, will not come again. While energy prices in Europe are going through the roof, they remain moderate in the USA. This will have serious consequences for energy-intensive industries.

The Wall Street Journal (paid article) is already rubbing its hands together for the US economy. It is twice beneficial: high prices for LNG exports and new jobs in the future. It’s Win/Win – Lose. One of the losers for Germany is Areclor-Mittal. Now they are turning down the first blast furnace. Here, too, the USA is profiting. The FAZ reports:

Arcelor-Mittal, the world’s largest steel producer, is shutting down two production facilities at the end of September due to high energy prices in Germany. “Until further notice,” one of the two blast furnaces at the plate steel site in Bremen will be shut down. And the direct reduction plant at the Hamburg long steel mill is also to be shut down. In addition to the already high costs for gas and electricity, the gas surcharge planned from October will place a further burden on the competitiveness of energy-intensive plants, it says in justification. ‘With a tenfold increase in gas and electricity prices, which we had to accept within a few months, we are no longer competitive in a market that is 25 percent supplied by imports,’ Germany CEO Reiner Blaschek is quoted as saying in a statement from Arcelor-Mittal.

In order to avoid gas consumption in Hamburg, the precursor iron is now being purchased from America in order to be able to continue production – more cheaply, but with a higher CO2 footprint. Reduced work hours is also being introduced at the production sites in Duisburg and Eisenhüttenstadt due to the difficult situation.”

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Michael in Dublin
September 24, 2022 2:16 am

This is certainly exposing the folly of the green policies but will it put enough pressure on politicians to review their policies? Perhaps if a bigger country like Germany would reverse its energy policies this would create a domino effect in their neighbors? I somehow think only if these politicians were swept from office could a new broom sweep clean – but I am not optimistic about this happening.

Steve Case
Reply to  Michael in Dublin
September 24, 2022 2:32 am

“… but I am not optimistic about this happening.”
________________________________

Neither am I.

Pierre Gosselin
Reply to  Steve Case
September 24, 2022 3:20 am

A clean sweep is indeed needed. But the problem is that Germany’s entrenched political/media establishment no longer allows pragmatic alternatives. When someone steps up and offers real pragmatic solutions, they immediately get branded as heretics, rightwing extremists and a “danger to our democracy.” As is now stands, there is no “clean sweep” in sight. Germans have a history of learning only the hard way.

meiggs
Reply to  Pierre Gosselin
September 24, 2022 4:43 am

The clean sweep already happened, the good guys got swept away. The rest is fore ordained with ultimate goal of step change down in population,

Reply to  Pierre Gosselin
September 24, 2022 5:27 am

Hi Pierre,
A clean sweep of a different kind will be hitting Germany & Britain this winter.
Regrets, Allan

Good News: 2022 Hurricane Season Mild. Bad News: Pressure Pattern Threatens Europe With Hell Winter (notrickszone.com)

I agree with this forecast – energy shortages and a cold winter – told you so 20 years ago – details at:
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/09/17/open-thread-35/#comment-3603080
[excerpt]
THE BIG CULL OF THE ELDERLY OF EUROPE WILL HAPPEN THIS WINTER
By Allan MacRae, 28July2022
We predicted it in 2002 and 2013 – it was all terribly costly – in dollars and lives – and all entirely avoidable.
A willful squandering of the lives of innocents.
Crimes against humanity.
 
Allan MacRae, B.A.Sc., M.Eng., Calgary  
https://energy-experts-international.com/

Steve Case
Reply to  Pierre Gosselin
September 24, 2022 9:31 am

A clean sweep shouldn’t be necessary. Analogy:

Man & wife in car, he turns down a road, “A short-cut” he says. She tells him he’s wrong. The road turns into ruts and leads to a swamp. How long before he decides she’s right and he’s wrong?

We are to the point where the road is turning into ruts. Not every left-wing politician that believes the CO2 fairy tale is an old bolshevik from the 1993 collapse of the USSR and wants to destroy western culture. I am reminded of the scene in “The Bridge Over the River Kwai” when Col. Nicholson finally comes to his senses.

But then:

“It is very easy to fool the people but difficult
to convince them that they HAVE been fooled!”
                                                    Mark Twain

Janice Moore
Reply to  Steve Case
September 24, 2022 10:47 am

Why, oh, why, must it take the death of innocents to convince some people??! 😞

Last edited 2 months ago by Janice Moore
Greg B
Reply to  Janice Moore
September 26, 2022 7:44 pm

That was one man. Groupthink is far more difficult to reverse.

TonyG
Reply to  Steve Case
September 25, 2022 12:22 pm

We are to the point where the road is turning into ruts.

But the response is: “Keep going, it will get better”

RDF2
Reply to  Pierre Gosselin
September 24, 2022 4:16 pm

By “hard way” I assume you mean that hundreds of thousands will freeze or starve this winter because NATO has finally pushed Russia to the brink.

Dennis G. Sandberg
Reply to  RDF2
September 24, 2022 8:12 pm

RDF2, that brings the total to two of us in Western civilization that understand what NATO is really doing. We should have gotten out within 12 months or the Berlin Wall coming down. The military/industrial complex is alive and well (unfortunately).

MarkW
Reply to  RDF2
September 24, 2022 9:04 pm

NATO hasn’t pushed anybody anywhere.
It’s Putin who has been trying to force people to do what he wants them to do.

Gary Pate
Reply to  RDF2
September 24, 2022 10:55 pm

The whole point of NATO was to keep the Germans down, the Russians out & the Americans in….

Gary Pate
Reply to  Pierre Gosselin
September 24, 2022 10:48 pm

People in the US who want to stop the Socialist/Green suicide are also getting branded as heretics, right-wing extremists and a “danger to our democracy.” 

toorightmate
Reply to  Steve Case
September 24, 2022 5:49 am

Unfortunately, we need about one million deaths in Europe this coming winter (due to cold/no power) before some people wake up to the hoax.
The CO2 horseshit has to stop.

Matt Kiro
Reply to  toorightmate
September 24, 2022 6:06 am

If they do report if that , it will only be to call for more windmills

Steve Case
Reply to  toorightmate
September 24, 2022 9:42 am

No, we do not need one million deaths.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Steve Case
September 24, 2022 10:51 am

We do not want 1 million deaths, but, it may take that to open the eyes of those fooled by the propaganda of the solar – wind – electric vehicle, etc. crooks.

Okay, yes, it may not take 1 million. How many deaths would it take, then?

Steve Case
Reply to  Janice Moore
September 24, 2022 12:14 pm

Okay, yes, it may not take 1 million. How many deaths would it take, then?

“How many deaths?” is a crappy metric. There’s enough unhappyness coming our way that ought to cause some beginnings of “The Great Rethink” So far the little kid has said, “But mama the emperor has no clothes” but it’s not working. People have to realize it’s an oncoming train and not the light at the end of the tunnel.

There are no doubt all sorts of well known allegorical phrases that can be applied.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Steve Case
September 24, 2022 12:34 pm

The question is rhetorical. “How much misery must happen to open people’s eyes” is the intended message behind the “million deaths” rhetoric.

Not being used as a metric.

Mainly, I was trying to find out why you disagreed with toorightmate’s message.

I think, from your response about a “metric,” that you may have misunderstood his or her point.

Rick C
Reply to  Janice Moore
September 24, 2022 5:52 pm

We’ve just had 7 Million+ deaths because a bunch of experts thought it would be fun and instructive to let a communist Chinese lab fool around with gain of function research on an obscure bat virus. The WHO, CDC, NIH and all sorts of experts around the world have come to the consensus that “it’s not our fault”. Has anything been learned from this experience? I’m afraid there is little evidence that there has been. A million deaths because of systematic destruction of energy systems may not be nearly enough. I’m not sure 10,000,000 would do it.

otropogo
Reply to  Rick C
September 24, 2022 9:13 pm

“We’ve just had 7 Million+ deaths because a bunch of experts thought it would be fun and instructive to let a communist Chinese lab fool around with gain of function research on an obscure bat virus. “

Not only “fun and instructive”, but also highly profitable for the insiders, and most importantly, a very encouraging social engineering result on a global level. Dr. Fauci and his enablers became a de facto world government for almost two years, and science was kicked rudely to the curb with little sign of resistance or protest.

Harkle
Reply to  Rick C
September 27, 2022 4:10 am

You assume this was all an unfortunate accident.

Steve4192
Reply to  Michael in Dublin
September 24, 2022 6:09 am

Sadly, even if Germany did come to it’s senses, it will be extremely difficult to reverse energy policies that are in large part based on supra-national edicts handed down by the EU. Even if Germany used it’s clout to push for changing EU policies, getting 26 other countries to agree to those changes would be like herding cats. Having that extra layer of unaccountable bureaucrats determining EU-wide policies makes effecting change incredibly sclerotic. That’s what happens when you give up national sovereignty to a regional supra-government.

MarkW
Reply to  Steve4192
September 24, 2022 8:25 am

Germans also have a solution to that problem as well. It involves a demagogic leader who uses force and violence to sweep aside the existing power structure.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Steve4192
September 24, 2022 10:53 am

Wouldn’t it be WONDERFUL if this debacle DESTROYS the foolhardy, wicked, EU (as an entity — not the individual nations and people within it).

Richard Page
Reply to  Janice Moore
September 24, 2022 1:46 pm

Only if it wasn’t to be replaced with something far worse; I would much rather see a sea change in EU politics, even a slight weakening of the EU which might lead to a gradual strengthening of the power of the individual states would be preferable. If the EU were destroyed quickly then it would leave a power vacuum that would most definitely be filled.

Pat from kerbob
Reply to  Steve4192
September 24, 2022 10:55 am

Germany leads the insanity and forces others along
If they change direction most of the rest of the EU will leap to follow

Steve4192
Reply to  Pat from kerbob
September 24, 2022 12:12 pm

I dunno man. A lot of southern Europeans are really enjoying the schadenfreude of seeing Germany struggle with an energy crisis after the way Germany treated them during the financial crisis.

alastair gray
Reply to  Michael in Dublin
September 24, 2022 7:55 am

In the UK the BEIS under Kwarteng was particularly moronic. But the buffoons on the other side are possibly even worse and more delusional. We are comprehensively screwed. The only question is was it idiocy or malice that brought us here

Janice Moore
Reply to  alastair gray
September 24, 2022 11:00 am

Answer: Yes.

David Coe
Reply to  alastair gray
September 26, 2022 2:37 am

And now that same moron is chancellor of the exchequer. A position in which he s showing just how much damage a moron can do.

Gerard O'Dowd
Reply to  Michael in Dublin
September 24, 2022 9:00 pm

Germany is suffering from political and scientific leadership who made Irrational plans to Irrational fears or threats- for decades- about GW/CCC due to CO2 emissions.

It is matrix quadrant of dangerously panicky or delusional leadership or Ideologically driven totalitarian tyrannical leadership who sacrifices the well being of the people for his own political goals just to maintain power.

The Americans and citizens of many other western countries also suffered from political healthcare leadership making Irrational policy to Irrational fears and threats during the Covid19 pandemic. Authoritarian progressive Corrupt Leftist bureaucrats the likes of Anthony Fauci, Francis Collins at the NIH, NIAID and CDC exhibited panic and corruption in ordering the economic lockdowns and spending $Billions of taxpayer funds on experimental “mRNA vaccines” that they happened to have Royalty interests with Big Pharma and the providing EUA for national use though they have proven to be neither effective nor safe.

I think we can describe the situation in Germany as a logical Reductio ad absurdum argument in which initial premise (Wind and solar can replace fossil fuels) has been contradicted by reality shown to be False and the opposite premise should be accepted as True.

Ideally good leadership is characterized by the matrix quadrant of making Rational Plans to Real Threats.

Poor Leadership can be characterized by the either of the two quadrants: Irrational Plans to Real threats and fears; or Rational plans to Irrational or let’s say exaggerated fears and threats.

Harkle
Reply to  Gerard O'Dowd
September 27, 2022 4:13 am

>>Ideologically driven totalitarian tyrannical leadership << +1

Steve Case
September 24, 2022 2:28 am

The “Green Leap Forward” has unintended consequences.

Well just maybe they aren’t exactly unintended.

Rod Evans
Reply to  Steve Case
September 24, 2022 3:47 am

All part of the five year plan.

Steve4192
Reply to  Steve Case
September 24, 2022 6:10 am

You’ll own nothing and like it.

Now eat the bugs peasant.

Reply to  Steve Case
September 24, 2022 10:41 am

Hi Steve,
Re your comment that the consequences of the Green Energy debacle were “not exactly unintended”. You are suggesting that the Green Energy debacle was deliberate; I say that is true.
To believe that these dysfunctional Green Energy policies are the result of bureaucratic stupidity is problematic. There is a powerful logic that states “No rational person or group could be this obtuse, this utterly wrong for this long”.
There appears to be a deliberate move to cull the elderly and the poor, through the twin frauds of Climate and Covid.
 
We published the important conclusions to the Climate debate in 2002 and nothing has changed:
The alleged Climate Crisis is a fifty-year-old scam, and “green energy” is not green and does not produce much useful energy.
 
In recent years, the Climate scam has been losing popular support, in part because:
·     Not one ~80 very-scary global warming disasters that were predicted by warmist scammers has ever happened.
·     Green energy costs were becoming exorbitant and Green Energy systems are unreliable.
·     Energy shortages due to the Green Energy scams were becoming more frequent.
·     The Climate narrative was becoming tired, old news.
·     Natural Global Cooling started circa 2020 and that cooling will soon be obvious.
A new scary narrative was needed to stampede the sheep, and along came the Covid-19 scam, which had been in preparation for more than a decade. The Covid-19 narrative also lacked scientific credibility from the start and was promoted by the same dishonest fraudsters who had been pushing the Climate scam all these years.
 
On 21Mar2020 I published the best (to my knowledge, the earliest and most accurate) assessment on the Covid-19 lockdowns and on 8Jan2021 I published one of the best assessments of the toxic Covid-19 “vaccines”. Neither the lockdowns nor the vaccines were ever necessary and both were hugely harmful – another false crisis.
 
The death toll from the toxic Covid-19 “vaccines” will total in the millions, and the vaccine-injury toll will be much greater.
 
Both scams will achieve the same objective – depopulation of the elderly and poor via energy shortages and vaccine injuries, a sickened population in all ages, greatly diminished human fertility and greatly diminished natural immunity among the Covid-vaxxed. In spite of all the highly credible negative evidence, our corrupt authorities are still pushing the toxic Covid-19 vaccines AND the discredited global warming narrative.

Nobody could be this stupid for this long – the entire depopulation scam must be deliberate.

Steve Case
Reply to  Allan MacRae
September 24, 2022 1:19 pm

Nobody could be this stupid for this long – the entire depopulation scam must be deliberate.
______________________________________________________

That’s what the Duck Test says. And that begs the question as to why ALL of the Democrats are on board with it. If “Depopulation” is the goal you would think someone would spill the beans. They don’t because they are afraid of the political machine they belong to. . . . . . I could go on, but I don’t have any reasonable answers. Your ugly assertion remains.

fretslider
September 24, 2022 2:30 am

The rule is the greater the hardship [for ordinary people] the greater the virtue for the state

The Labour Party is a good example

“It will take the united strength, imagination and organisation of the labour and green movements to stop Truss’ climate vandalism in its tracks

There will be big campaigns against the new oil and gas fields including Shell’s Cambo and Jackdaw and opening the country up to fracking. The labour movement must stand shoulder to shoulder with them.”

https://labouroutlook.org/2022/09/21/labour-and-climate-movements-must-unite-to-defeat-liz-truss-climate-vandalism/

The Labour movement is determined to oppose high skilled well paid jobs

H.R.
Reply to  fretslider
September 24, 2022 4:50 am

fretslider: “The Labour movement is determined to oppose high skilled well paid jobs”


I know. Nuckin’ futz, innit?

Same here in the US. “The Little Guy” is told by the Democrats that they are all for “The Little Guy” yet their policies hurt “The Little Guy” the most. And “the Little Guy” just can’t see it.

The Democrats here, and Labour in the UK are taking advantage of the fact that the average person is not very bright, and half the people are below average. The rest of their base comes from the IYI; Intellectual, Yet Idiots.

There are precious few being truly educated and being taught to think nowadays. The” March Through the Institutions” started with education for good reason.

Gerry, England
Reply to  fretslider
September 24, 2022 5:06 am

The unions don’t care that much about their members as long as they can fund their big salaries and nice homes. Labour long since stopped being a working class party and would label most working class as far right these days. But in a step towards reality, the GMB leader has broken ranks and spoken out against ‘bourgeois environmentalism’. Perhaps there is a realisation that Nut Job Zero will wipe out his members.

H.R.
Reply to  Gerry, England
September 24, 2022 8:29 am

Can’t have that big house if there is no one left to pay dues, Gerry. It seems the union bosses may have been whacked with a clue stick.

Redge
Reply to  fretslider
September 24, 2022 5:31 am

There will be big campaigns against the new oil and gas fields… 

Aided and abetted by the extreme-leftist BBC, The Guardian, and the rest of the Misleadia

Last edited 2 months ago by Redge
griff
September 24, 2022 2:34 am

The entire price rise issue is down to natural gas prices…renewables just mean using less of the expensive gas

It is unlikely that Germany or the UK or even Europe as a whole could produce enough gas from fracking to significantly drive down the price or to have avoided Russian political action having a price impact.

Gas is just 12% of German electricity generation and given an export surplus in electricity from Germany, plus keeping open reactors and making full use of coal plant which is normally backup, Germany is unlikely to suffer electricity cuts.

The impact on industry using gas is however likely to be a problem.

fretslider
Reply to  griff
September 24, 2022 2:41 am

Germany nationalises gas giant amid energy crisis…

What were you saying? Oh yes,

“The entire price rise issue is down to natural gas prices”

Because supply has been deliberately choked

Last edited 2 months ago by strativarius
ozspeaksup
Reply to  fretslider
September 24, 2022 3:37 am

self inflicted choke by refusing nord2
and by canadas withholding turbines repairs they have at least 5! ones returned sans paperwork and rightly refused by Russia

another ian
Reply to  griff
September 24, 2022 2:50 am

Bookmarked for review at a later date

ozspeaksup
Reply to  griff
September 24, 2022 3:34 am

wow what rock do you nap under? most nuke plants are U/S or closed
youre right frakking eu is close to useless, but mining coal isnt
and their entire issue would be sorted if they wake the f up allow nord2 and pay in Rubles, stop the idiot sanctions and leave ukies to their own devices

Jit
Reply to  ozspeaksup
September 24, 2022 5:37 am

An opinion made from a comfortable armchair in a country not threatened by invasion?

MarkW
Reply to  ozspeaksup
September 24, 2022 8:52 am

Everyone knows that bullies always stop bullying when they are given what they want.

Robert Hanson
Reply to  MarkW
September 24, 2022 9:27 am

Yeah, the science on that is clearly settled. Giving Hitler the Sudetenland brought us “peace in our time”. Oh, wait….

Jim Gorman
Reply to  griff
September 24, 2022 4:36 am

So, what is your point? Natural gas IS a fossil fuel, why is the reduction in use causing such a problem? Why aren’t the steel mills converting to electrical heating? Using electrical power from unreliable sources should be much cheaper, right? That should make them more efficient and more profitable. Why can you not admit the real problem?

huls
Reply to  Jim Gorman
September 24, 2022 4:53 am
Redge
Reply to  huls
September 24, 2022 5:34 am

I’m pretty sure most of us here knew oil isn’t mashed up T-Rex’s

MarkW
Reply to  huls
September 24, 2022 8:54 am

Plants are also fossils.

Janice Moore
Reply to  huls
September 24, 2022 11:26 am

Fossil fuels are energy resources derived from altered remains of living organisms buried by sediments and exposed to elevated pressures and temperatures for millions of years.

They are defined non-renewable because of the long time it takes to create them.

There are three basic forms of fossil fuels: petroleum (or, crude) natural gas, and coal …

The theory that fossil fuels were formed from the petrified remains of dead plants through heat and pressure in the earth’s crust over millions of years was first introduced by Andreas Libavius (he supposed from the resins of ancient trees) in his work​​ Alchymia published in 1597 …

The first utilization of the term fossil fuels in relation to coal and petroleum can be tentatively framed between 1710s and 1750s, following the work of the Prussian chemist and pharmacist Caspar Neumann …

(Source: https://ethw.org/Fossil_fuels )

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Jim Gorman
September 24, 2022 4:58 am

“Why can you not admit the real problem?”

Griff is in denial.

Robert Hanson
Reply to  Tom Abbott
September 24, 2022 9:31 am

Germany is unlikely to suffer electricity cuts”

Well then Griff, how do you explain that German steel companies are already closing down plants, and cutting back hours at the ones they are keeping open?

Jtom
Reply to  Robert Hanson
September 24, 2022 9:26 pm

Perversely, if enough manufacturing shuts down, Germany will be unlikely to suffer electricity cuts. Of course, there would be massive unemployment, a depression, few people would be able to afford electricity at any price (leading to a SURPLUS of electricty), great human suffering and death would be common, but the important thing is Griff could claim he was right.

Richard Page
Reply to  Tom Abbott
September 24, 2022 1:50 pm

Wish he was in de Nile, doubt he’d get Wifi there!

Harkle
Reply to  Tom Abbott
September 27, 2022 4:20 am

Griff is a paid CCP shill who deliberately disrupts the discourse here on WUWT

Steve Case
Reply to  Jim Gorman
September 24, 2022 9:47 am

Natural gas IS a fossil fuel,
______________________

Not all of it, after all, why does Saturn’s moon Titan have methane lakes?

Mickey Reno
Reply to  griff
September 24, 2022 4:59 am

Griff, did your sphincter loosen up and your head threaten slip out? Is that why your jamming your head upward so forcefully?

I, for one, disagree with a few of my political allies above who are pessimistic that “green” (i.e. unreliable, intermittent, inefficient electricity generation will long survive blackouts, freezing citizens and the shutting down of major industrial employers. This happened in South Australia a few years back, and the Aussies were still cramming down green BS and windmills and power walls on their citizens as “miracle cures” for bush fires.

However, I am very optimistic that wind and solar and lithium batteries are not long for this world as a primary replacements for the burning of coal. However, it will take a disastrous winter or two in Germany and the UK for citizens to finally realize they’ve been scammed by twin mass delusions, 1) that Communist style central planning in thrall to idiotic and mistaken political ideology is a good way to run a power grid, and 2) that CO2 controls the Earth’s climate..

Old Man Winter
Reply to  griff
September 24, 2022 5:43 am

Not even close, Griffo! Let me help you by starting the story
in the BEGINNING! Like the UK, they got rid of RELIABLE coal
& nuclear & spent $Bs & $Bs to replace it with WORTHLESS solar
& wind- ~60 GW nameplate each- that produces <10% & ~20%
nameplate. Solar does about as poor as it does in the UK,
but their wind really, really stinks vs the UK- onshore @ 18%
& the more expensive offshore @ 35% vs the still stinky ~40%
in the UK. The only RE that's working is that dirty, 33%-bonus
CO2 bio & hydro, like it does in the UK (which has rock solid
nuclear, too). To add to their misery, they, like the UK, have
very little storage so when the wind does blow & the sun does
shine, it's a case of use it or lose it. Looks like Germany
should've done their homework before going RE as inflation's
@ 45% & they're shutting down industries. Ach du lieber!

EUwndpot.jpg
Redge
Reply to  griff
September 24, 2022 5:45 am

Gas is just 12% of German electricity generation

Griff, mate,

A lie by omission is still a lie

Screenshot 2022-09-24 134405.jpg
Pat from kerbob
Reply to  Redge
September 24, 2022 12:41 pm

Without lies he’d have nothing to say

So I guess he’s a progressive politician

Jit
Reply to  griff
September 24, 2022 5:59 am
  1. It doesn’t matter how many windmills you have, you can’t retire the conventional plants.
  2. The anti fracking propaganda goes: there’s no gas there -> Anyway you’re not allowed to look so you might as well forget about it -> Anyway if we let you look and you did find any it would be too late because we need to reach Net Zero -> Anyway if we let you look and you found any and we let you extract it, it would undermine the UK’s credibility as a climate leader -> Anyway if we let you look and you find it and we accept the undermining of our position on the international stage and let you extract it, it won’t reduce gas bills.

https://cliscep.com/2022/03/06/why-fracking-is-not-the-answer-to-soaring-uk-gas-prices/
[Yes, the title is sarcastic.]

Richard Page
Reply to  Jit
September 24, 2022 1:54 pm

Apparently it is now the wrong sort of shale and all of the gas leaked out thousands of years ago leaving nothing. It’s hilarious the contortions the greenies are going through to try to stop this from happening!

michel
Reply to  griff
September 24, 2022 7:05 am

“…renewables just mean using less of the expensive gas…”

No, the exact opposite is true. Wind and solar are intermittent, and wind is also unreliable with it, so its necessary to provide backup in order to get usable power service out of them.

The backup that is provided is gas. There is a good reason for this. Any other sort of backup is not rapid enough response, or (in the case of batteries) its too expensive and has never been implemented at scale.

Yes, you can use hydro as backup. Mackay estimated that to convert the UK to wind and solar, using hydro as backup, you would have to convert the whole of the Lake District to pumped storage. And most of North Wales too. How long would it take to build, what would it cost? Prohibitive on both counts, and politically impossible with it.

Consequently, the more wind and solar you install, the more gas you need. Gas is all there is. Converting to so called renewables is actually a way of increasing dependence on gas.

There are large sections of the media and climate lobbies that are in denial about this. Ars Technica is an egregious example. As are the Guardian and BBC, and you’ll never find a piece about intermittency in the NYT or WaPo. But its a fact, and the easiest way to see it is to look at the UK chart of energy production, readily available with one click

https://gridwatch.co.uk/WIND

and just ask yourself what sort of economy would the UK have if it did not use gas to back up this kind of useless supply.

The right way to look at this is actually the exact reverse of the usual account. What is happening is not that gas is backing up wind and solar. There is no move to renewables. What is really happening is that the move is to gas, supplemented at great expense by pretty much useless wind and solar. Expense which is disguised by making the subsidies various and fragmented so its hard to add them all up.

The rational course of action for the UK would be to just install the so called backup, and not bother with installing the wind and solar that it is supposed to be backing up.

Fraizer
Reply to  michel
September 24, 2022 8:23 am

“…(in the case of batteries) its too expensive and has never been implemented at scale…”

Not physically possible to produce, operate and maintain batterie at the scale required. It’s physics, not economics.

Robert Hanson
Reply to  Fraizer
September 24, 2022 9:44 am

Yesterday a major California freeway was shut down, and local residents told to “shelter in place”, meaning stay inside with the windows closed, due to toxic releases from a large scale Tesla battery burning up.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Robert Hanson
September 24, 2022 11:42 am

Highway 1 in Moss Landing Shut Down for Hours Due to PG&E Battery Plant Fire
… no estimated time of when the highway would reopen, citing ongoing concerns over air quality.  **

This type of fire isn’t new. For example, a 2021 Tesla Megapack Australian battery fire raged for a long time. …

https://www.ktvu.com/news/highway-1-in-moss-landing-shut-down-for-hours-due-to-power-plant-fire

Last edited 2 months ago by Janice Moore
atticman
Reply to  Fraizer
September 24, 2022 1:55 pm

No, Fraizer, it’s physics AND economics…

Dave Andrews
Reply to  michel
September 24, 2022 8:34 am

“Consequently the more wind and solar you install, the more gas you need.”

Yes. The gas stations can only operate when the wind isn’t blowing etc. This means their recovery of their fixed and sunk capital costs takes longer and that the contracts for gas supply have to be provided on demand without the gas supplier knowing when it will be required. The cost of the gas thus goes up.

The more unreliables the more all of these costs rise.

UK-Weather Lass
Reply to  michel
September 24, 2022 9:55 am

“The rational course of action for the UK would be to just install the so called backup, and not bother with installing the wind and solar that it is supposed to be backing up.

Thanks for a statement that is completely logical and true. It would have saved the UK trillions in unnecessary expenditure if implemented a couple of decades ago. I do so hope there are politicians in the UK that read this stuff.

Richard Page
Reply to  UK-Weather Lass
September 24, 2022 1:59 pm

I do so hope there are politicians in the UK that read this stuff and, more importantly, can understand the implications behind it. Sadly there are far too many that studied how to ‘do’ politics without studying how the real world actually works. Let’s hope it’s the ones who understand the real world that can keep control and sort this mess out.

Mark Whitney
Reply to  griff
September 24, 2022 7:06 am

Someone was talking about below average IQ, and who steps in? Chuckle.

Dave Andrews
Reply to  griff
September 24, 2022 8:14 am

“Renewables just mean using less of the expensive gas”

Not when the unreliables are selling on the open market it doesn’t.

Since the energy prices went up newly completed wind farms in the UK are delaying taking up their contracts for difference (CfDs) because they can earn much more on the open market. Thus the Moray East WF has announced it will delay taking up its CfD until 2023 and will thus earn an extra £500m in its first 12 months of operation.

CfD contracts allow up to 3 years before they have to be taken up. Since prices soared last autumn none have been taken up. CfDs were supposed to reduce electricity prices – indeed you have commented to that effect often in the past.

It doesn't add up...
Reply to  griff
September 24, 2022 8:36 am

This twitter thread is an excellent discussion of the power situation in Europe, backed by data and analysis. Well worth reading through and looking carefully at the charts and tables presented.

https://mobile.twitter.com/BurggrabenH/status/1567929413043453952

Last edited 2 months ago by It doesnot add up
MarkW
Reply to  griff
September 24, 2022 8:48 am

Electricity prices have gone up both when energy prices were rising and when energy prices were falling.
The mechanism by which renewable energy forces energy prices to rise has been well understood for decades.

How many times are you going to repeat this lie? Until you’re paid to tell a different one?

Pat from kerbob
Reply to  griff
September 24, 2022 10:59 am

It physically hurts me that you are so stupid.
Maybe that is your purpose, inflicting pain?

Dean
Reply to  griff
September 25, 2022 2:05 am

If renewables worked Griffo then more of them would mean a larger decoupling of electricity prices compared to gas prices.

You seem to miss the point (or you are being deliberately obtuse) that every MW of renewables needs the same capacity of backup.

Batteries are eye-wateringly expensive, and at nothing like the scale required to work in the real world.

So the backup is gas, because of the fast reaction time. THIS ADDITIONAL GAS DEMAND IS ENTIRELY DRIVEN BY ADDING MORE RENEWABLES TO THE GENERATION FLEET.

Coal is never the preferred backup because it runs efficiently as a base load generator.

You clearly have no effing idea about electricity generation.

LdB
Reply to  griff
September 25, 2022 8:17 am

So if gas is only 12% of generation then why is Electricity going up 10 fold?
That means GAS must have gone up 83 fold … but wait it only went up 10 fold as well????

You get your claim doesn’t make sense 🙂

ozspeaksup
September 24, 2022 3:31 am

aluminium plants also shutting down . theyre having to use public rail to ship coal to keep lights on already disrupting workers(the few left) now imagine the massive CAFO pig n chook barns power useages..so theyll start reductions there too =less food
they close down ammonia plant production even before the shtf ulke wise as well.
was good to see billgates backed food stores mysteriously catch fire..twice so far(denmark)
Europe was already dodgy now its a slow trainwreck and I for one find it funny as hell

Rod Evans
September 24, 2022 3:45 am

It is worth remembering the objective of the Green New Deal as advised by the UN is to destroy capitalism.
Every job lost in industry, every company closed in manufacturing, every power energy plant blown to pieces, is celebrated by the Greens. It is a success story, if you are a UN official, that is exactly what the boss ordered.
Anton Guterres the current Secretary General is thrilled with the direction his advocated policies have achieved in Germany. His agents in the USA headed up by Joe the confused one, is work in progress but coming along fine.

RexAlan
Reply to  Rod Evans
September 24, 2022 4:49 am

I really wish we could stop using the term “Capitalism”. As the warmist’s changed from global warming to climate change we should stop using the term “Capitalism”. It should be called a free market economy. After all isn’t free good.

Redge
Reply to  RexAlan
September 24, 2022 5:48 am

We also need to stop calling “Greens” by their true moniker: Extreme Left

Mr.
Reply to  Redge
September 24, 2022 8:04 am

Won’t “communists” do?

Redge
Reply to  Mr.
September 24, 2022 8:08 am

I don’t think so.

We need counter the BBC, etc calling everyone who is not left wing “extreme right” or “far right”, planting the seed in young minds that everyone disagreeing with the Beeb is a fascist.

JMHO

Rod Evans
Reply to  Redge
September 24, 2022 9:59 am

WE could always go with ‘Extreme Marxists’ that would most closely describe the Green Climate Alarmists political posture.

0311
Reply to  Redge
September 24, 2022 5:27 pm

“Killers” works for me.

H.R.
Reply to  Rod Evans
September 24, 2022 5:05 am

It is more than just the UN, Rod. There are a lot of fellow travelers all working to create a Socialist Utopia from the ashes of free enterprise, called capitalism by Marxists.

There are a lot of GEBs (Globalist Evil Bastards) out there trying to turn the Western economies to ashes. The GEBs intend to be on top of that heap of ashes. I think they will find it hard to build anything from ashes. You need stout timber to build anything worthwhile.

We’ll own nothing. The GEBs will own everything, but what good is it owning a pile of ashes?

My 2¢

John Garrett
September 24, 2022 4:10 am

The only problem is what happens when there are a huge bunch of unemployed Germans.

The last time that happened, the result wasn’t good.

Redge
Reply to  John Garrett
September 24, 2022 5:49 am

and remember, PETA are against eating meat

Matt Kiro
Reply to  John Garrett
September 24, 2022 6:11 am

There already are whole bunch of unemployed Germans, they all immigrated there in the last fifteen years or so. Getting free stuff from the government, so there’s not much left for the Germans who were born there.

Jocko
September 24, 2022 4:20 am

Where are they going to go? Oil rich Russia, Venezuela or the Middle East?

meiggs
Reply to  Jocko
September 24, 2022 4:50 am

Belgium

Mickey Reno
September 24, 2022 4:39 am

Now Climate Scientology has it’s very own Operation Foot-bullet [1].

[1] – In the mid 1990s, during the battles between the Church of Scientology and Usenet advocates of free speech on the internet, the joke phrase “Operation Foot-bullet.” was frequently used to describe official actions and responses by Scientology organizations,

Last edited 2 months ago by mickeyreno
Tom Abbott
September 24, 2022 4:47 am

From the article: “Germany’s “Tenfold Increase in Gas and Electricity Prices” Is Driving Out Industry

Europe’s energy policy is creating jobs – for USA”

What a surprise!

Yes, if you let your electrical infrastructure go to hell, then you should expect businesses and people to vote with their feet and go where conditions are more favorable.

At present, the conditions are more favorable in the United States. How long that lasts depends on the results of the next election in the U.S. in November.

tgasloli
Reply to  Tom Abbott
September 24, 2022 6:27 am

Not sure “next election” changes things much. When has the GOP ever reversed a Dem policy? Trump was asked multiple times to withdraw the GHG Finding of Endangerment and didn’t.

GOP may stall the elimination of fossil fuel reliable energy but the elites of both parties clearly want the same outcome: an impoverished and demoralized easily abused population.

Robert Hanson
Reply to  tgasloli
September 24, 2022 10:07 am

The more government spending and destructive regulation, the greater the opportunity for graft and corruption. The Rinos may talk a good game, but they really want their “fair share” of the profits from the graft. Not to mention the payments from China and other despotic states, funneled thru the lobbyists. Expecting Trump to undo all of this in only 4 years, while besieged from both left and so called right, is asking way too much. Even from Trump, who after all is a human being, not a Marvel Superhero.

Janice Moore
Reply to  tgasloli
September 24, 2022 12:18 pm

Donald J. Trump (and God with whom all things are possible) can do it! 😃

Remember all he got done in his first year. He can be more aggressive in this term. He had to bear in mind getting re-elected his first term.

🎇 TRUMP 2024! 🎇

Gerry, England
September 24, 2022 5:08 am

Once money is invested in new plants elsewhere, barring some major event, the industry is not going to return anytime soon.

garboard
September 24, 2022 5:16 am

how low can the euro go ? it’s worth less than a dollar now for the first time since 2002 , shortly after the introduction of the euro , and the descent is just beginning.that’s the marker for germany’s transformation into a third world country . could a loaf of bread cost 1000 euro in germany by the end of this winter ?

Joe Shaw
Reply to  garboard
September 26, 2022 4:46 pm

The euro can go to zero. It has happened to plenty of currencies in the past with the Wiemar Republic Papiermark being a particularly relevant example. I suspect the key question is how low can the euro go before nations with options (e.g., the Nordic countries, Poland) decouple both from the currency union and fiat rule from Brussels.

John Oliver
September 24, 2022 5:18 am

And yet the fascists are trying to put the US in the exact same position as Germany. Here in Maryland we narrowly averted the net Zero fossil fuel phase out “Climate Solutions Now act “but only by watering the bill down under threat of veto. But it did pass.

We’ve already lost so much. Our US first amendment rights are gone. You can’t work with out putting a certain substance in your body. I ask my liberal friends as one conservative customer of mine put it “ have you seen enough yet?” When does this stop?

Old Man Winter
September 24, 2022 6:23 am

Yuval Noah Harari (WEF)-
“Now, fast forward to the early 21st century when we just don’t need
the vast majority of the population because the future is about
developing more and more sophisticated technology, like artificial
intelligence [and] bioengineering.”

Germany really got taken to the cleaners believing the WEF- that group
of people with a relentless God complex. Harari thinks we should invest
2% of global GDP ($2T) in their BeeEss because they claim CC will cost
the world 18% ($18T) of its GDP. Along with that, he sees people as
unneeded- which usually leads to it becoming a problem to be solved.

BTW, they favor censorship & think meat will be a special treat.

https://www.thedailybell.com/all-articles/news-analysis/world-economic-forum-futurist-we-just-dont-need-the-vast-majority-of-the-population/

PJ Media-
A WEF Op-ed Is Calling for Global Censorship. We Really Need to Cut Ties With These Commies

Christopher Hagan
September 24, 2022 9:28 am

This is what happens when you give your autonomy to an entity that has as its goal depopulation and a reduction in consumption of the population. For the first time in history ALL our leaders want to degrade our quality of life.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Christopher Hagan
September 24, 2022 12:23 pm

Not all… 🙂
comment image

Janice Moore
Reply to  Janice Moore
September 24, 2022 12:26 pm

comment image

Philip
September 24, 2022 9:52 am

The problem is, those energy intensive, industrial operations won’t be moving to the USA. They will be moving to China, India, maybe even Africa.

If you are going to uproot your entire industry and export it, will you move it to another country on the same path, just a few years behind where you are moving from? Or will you go to somewhere at least an order of magnitude cheaper, explicitly not on the same downwards spiral, and with none of those pesky environmental issues?

Then there is the need for an educated potential workforce. In the USA the only people that really qualify are over 50, with no replacements in sight.

The USA is not going to pick up these jobs. No matter how much the delude themselves.
Not without a big reversal in direction, and 20 to correct the error.

Last edited 2 months ago by Philip
Ireneusz Palmowski
September 24, 2022 10:12 am

Germany was at least 40 percent dependent on Russian gas. One can understand (but not forgive) the politicians and businessmen for whom profits are important, but one cannot forgive the scientists and journalists who lied that there would be no snow in England and no ice in the Arctic.

Janice Moore
Reply to  Ireneusz Palmowski
September 24, 2022 12:28 pm

It’s all about money for all of them.

Philip Morkel
September 24, 2022 10:29 am

I live in this country with the (previously) third biggest world economy and a fancy car industry, where socialism is alive and prospering under a clueless government, which, following the Merkel catastrophic years, have gone completely off the grid (sic) and got away with all this environmental bullshit for years, only now to push the middle class and small and medium sized business into ruin, by following their disastrous response over the past 2 years with this energy stupidity. When will the masses wake up to this mass indoctrination, forcing the intellectually challenged into more mayhem, causing poverty and shortages, whilst the government sit in their plush mansions in Brussels and Berlin and Bonn?

Bindidon
September 24, 2022 12:53 pm

Now, for the third time in a row, TricksZone’s Gosselin manages to babble about Germany’s energy problems without mentioning ‘Russia’ let alone ‘Putin’.

In Germany, France and Italy, this is absolutely typical of both the extreme neo-fascist right and the ultra-left idiots who fight each other to the death but all fully endorse Putin’s brutal invasion war against Ukraine.

Without the infamous, murderous Russian aggression, gas prices namely would never have changed, let alone electricity prices, which are oddly linked to the price of gas.

*
Even the dumbest WUWT poster should – slowly but surely – come to realize that all these TricksZone posts would never have appeared if Russia hadn’t invaded Ukraine.

All these Dumbies should feel free to downvote me: I LOVE being downvoted !!!

Try to get the counter at least over 100 … then it’s worth it.

Last edited 2 months ago by Bindidon
Richard Page
Reply to  Bindidon
September 24, 2022 2:13 pm

I downvoted you for the simple reason that you really don’t get it, do you? I deplore the invasion of the Ukraine and support measures to end this conflict with the minimum of harm to the Ukraine people. And yet, unlike you, I realise that the rise in gas and oil prices started way before the conflict began – the senseless and shortsighted policies of the EU, UK and USA have done huge damage to the energy situation which has been exacerbated by the Ukraine, not caused by it. These posts appeared before Russia invaded Ukraine so, even an ideologically driven person like you should realise that they would still have appeared whether Russia had invaded or not. I hope you appreciate that it is entirely possible to have a rational conversation whilst keeping the general insults to an absolute minimum?

Bindidon
Reply to  Richard Page
September 24, 2022 2:54 pm

Where is your proof for that claim?

This is COMPLETELY ridiculous!

Our heat engine is gas-fueled, and our prices started going up a few months after the Russian invasion!

You are one more of these people who think they do know about a lot of things, but your alleged knowledge is based on nothing real, Mr Page.

Last edited 2 months ago by Bindidon
It doesn't add up...
Reply to  Bindidon
September 24, 2022 3:43 pm

This is what happened to the price of gas for December 2021 delivery in the UK, in pence/therm. You will see that the price doubled between March and July last year before going completely bezerk in September ahead of what proved to be a very tight winter. Gas stocks in the EU were inadequate, since they had not been able to replenish them due to a dearth of LNG supply with China taking large volumes and overall global production failing to regain pre covid levels. Dutch gas from Groningen was shut in because of reservoir subsidence leading to tremors. Pipeline supply from Russia was normal over this period.

The war did not start until March 2022. Yet prices got to more than eight times what they were at the tail of the previous winter.

Screenshot_20220924-232903_Chrome.jpg
MarkW
Reply to  Bindidon
September 24, 2022 3:44 pm

I love the way you move the goal posts.

The first was about energy prices, now you are whining about gas prices alone.

The rise in gas prices has been going up for several years. Yes, it did accelerate recently, but it was already going up.
Fascism is a form of socialism.

LdB
Reply to  Bindidon
September 25, 2022 8:24 am

Even Griff got this bit right .. Natural Gas is only 12% of German Power generation

So lets pose the same question to you as I did Griff.

How does a 12% generation product cause a 10 fold increase in Electricity cost that would imply the cost of gas is 83 fold higher.

Now look at the Graph above

Care to try another answer with intelligence this time?

MarkW
Reply to  Bindidon
September 24, 2022 3:41 pm

Electricity prices in Germany have been heading for the sky for years, the additional boost from Russia’s territorial aggressions are pretty minor.

Most people who actually pay attention to reality were well aware of this.

Those people who are actively trying to hide the absolute failure that renewable energy has proven to be, are only trying to distract the public.

September 24, 2022 1:36 pm

With California having among the highest cost of electricity and fuels in America, Governor Newsom is trying to match or exceed what Germany has accomplished.

Richard Page
Reply to  Ronald Stein
September 24, 2022 2:16 pm

So far not too much of a problem, but if the surrounding states have energy problems of their own and do not have spare capacity to send to California, it’ll be a completely different ball game. Sadly, game on!

Ireneusz Palmowski
September 24, 2022 1:41 pm

Now Germany will fight for Norwegian gas. They wanted to be the distributor of Russian gas in Europe, but that didn’t work out.

Richard Page
Reply to  Ireneusz Palmowski
September 24, 2022 2:19 pm

Hungary and Turkey are in more dominant positions as regards Russian gas but this doesn’t help as long as the politicians refuse to buy anything from Russia. It’s a moral dilemma – can you still justify not buying from Russia if it means the death of thousands of your own citizens?

It doesn't add up...
Reply to  Ireneusz Palmowski
September 24, 2022 4:28 pm

Germany is going around the world looking for anyone who might sell them gas. They’ve tried Norway, Canada, Qatar and now Saudi.

What they are failing to do is bankroll more drilling or encouraging what is left of their oil and gas industry to go abroad and invest in new supply. They just expect to be given gas from a magic spigot.

Bob
September 24, 2022 2:18 pm

The solution to these problems is simple, reverse course. We’ve been lied to by pseudo scientists, government administrators, bureaucrats and politicians and totally responsible CEOs. The earth will warm, it has been since the end of the little ice age, the earth will not reach a tipping point and fall into runaway heating. We know the people responsible for these lies they need to be punished, not their organizations. They need to be held personally responsible for the damage they have caused. Fire up the coal, fire up the gas and fire up the nuclear. It is time to stop playing games.

james fosser
September 24, 2022 3:02 pm

Mr schiklgruber will be turning in his bunker!

ian Coleman
September 24, 2022 3:26 pm

Ironically, green energy enthusiasts are always decrying the short-sightedness of dependence on fossil fuels. This is bogus and hypocritical, because green energy policies are always promoted to enhance short term political gains. In Germany, governments announce that they are greening the grid, which gets them votes. (From gullible people, but gullible votes count the same as rational votes.) Now the long-term consequences of green energy are becoming apparent, and they are dire. And will get a lot direr.

And, darn the luck, the long term effects of green energy policies are a less long term in their consequences than climate change. Who is going to worry about the imagined climate in 2050 if they can’t afford to heat their homes this winter?

I am 70 years old and I ain’t too sharp, but I have finally figured out that the most important ingredient of any successful society is economic growth. Mess with that, and bad things will happen. Energy and wealth are joined at the hip. Mess with the energy supply and you mess with the creation of wealth.

To drift off the topic a little, our federal government here in Canada is doing everything possible, not only to make energy more expensive, but to sabotage our oil and gas industries, all in the name of addressing a climate crisis that doesn’t exist in Canada in any meaningful way, where the winters are cold and the other seasons are temperate.

michel
September 25, 2022 1:15 am

I have argued previously and lower in this thread that increasing the amount of wind and solar power generation increases demand for and dependency on gas.

Here is the FT on New England:

And while there has been more investment in renewable energy in New England — with huge planned investments, especially in wind power — it still relies on immediately available natural gas. In fact, by far the biggest shift in New England’s grid has been its increased use of gas, which now makes up three times as much of its energy usage than it did in 2000, while renewables have gone from 8 percent of electricity production to 12 percent. “In simple terms, renewables will displace fossil fuels, but the need for balancing energy (and in particular the long duration, peaking requirement for balancing energy) will increase,” ISO-NE said in its statement. “For the clean energy transition to be successful, the region must continue to have reliable supplies of gas for home heating and electricity.”

The FT also points out that in New England, oil is still being used as peak generating fuel:

While the region has retired thousands of megawatts worth of coal, plus nuclear and oil plants, sometimes when electricity needs spike, oil-burning power plants are turned on to keep the lights on, employing a form of generation that has largely disappeared from much of the country’s grid.

There are plans for more renewable energy, but, as Stephen George, an official at ISO-NE, said in a presentation, “Generator retirements occur on schedule, but new resources are often delayed.”

There is no doubt about it, its a matter of experience of the real world. The first result of installing wind and solar is to raise the dependency on gas.

It doesn't add up...
Reply to  michel
September 25, 2022 3:27 am

I took another peek at how KIREIP (King Island Renewable Energy Integration Project) was doing a couple of days back. 100% diesel backup, supplying just under 1.4 MW, with the battery drawing 4kW and the wind turbines drawing 10kW, and nothing from solar. At least it wasn’t simultaneously dumping into the balancing resistor.

https://www.hydro.com.au/clean-energy/hybrid-energy-solutions/success-stories/king-island

Not really better now. Wind providing 40kW out of 2MW

Ireneusz Palmowski
September 25, 2022 2:12 am

What is important is the huge dependence of Germany’s energy industry on gas. This is enough to expose the climate lie. What is the effect of burning gas? CO2 and H2O.

rwisrael
September 25, 2022 1:06 pm

American media is carefully avoiding the European energy crisis except to blame it on Putin . The fact that switching from “fossil fuels to “renewable energy” has been a disaster is completely ignored. people can’t learn from experience if the truth is withheld from them.

TallDave
September 27, 2022 11:43 am

more cheaply, but with a higher CO2 footprint. “

lol

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