UK: E-car chargers will turn off to prevent blackouts

From NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW THAT

SEPTEMBER 13, 2021

By Paul Homewood

h/t Dennis Ambler

From The Times:

Electric car charging points in people’s homes will be preset to switch off for nine hours each weekday at times of peak demand because ministers fear blackouts on the National Grid.

Under regulations that will come into force in May, new chargers in the home and workplace will be automatically set not to function from 8am to 11am and 4pm to 10pm. Public chargers and rapid chargers, on motorways and A-roads, will be exempt.

The government is also taking powers to impose a “randomised delay” of up to 30 minutes at other times to avoid pressure on the grid if there is a scramble among motorists to recharge their batteries at the same time.

There are only 300,000 battery electric vehicles (EVs) on the UK’s roads.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e-car-chargers-will-turn-off-to-prevent-blackouts-jnm2m86pz

We have long been assured that EVs would not cause problems for the grid, because most of the charging would take place at night when there is spare capacity. As many of us could have told them, most drivers would simply plug in as soon as they got home.

Now the government has woken up to this reality.

Charging between 10pm and 8am may be OK for some, but what about shift workers?

This new regulation is a clear admission that government is now seriously concerned about grid capacity and blackouts. I suspect there will be many more measures to come designed to ration electricity.

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Rory Forbes
September 13, 2021 10:25 pm

So they’ve managed to take the mobile out of automobile even before EVs are more than just an expensive toy for the rich. The things are becoming less and less attractive with each new announcement. Can’t store them indoors, Can’t recharge them whenever needed. Can’t trust them not to spontaneously immolate themselves. Can’t do greater than local trips. What can they do that ICE vehicles can’t do better?

Alastair Brickell
Reply to  Rory Forbes
September 13, 2021 11:22 pm

Virtue signal…

Rory Forbes
Reply to  Alastair Brickell
September 14, 2021 12:05 am

You’ve got a point there 🙂

Izaak Walton
Reply to  Rory Forbes
September 14, 2021 12:15 am

What can they do that ICE vehicles can’t do better?”
Accelerate. EVs are so much more fun to drive than ICE vehicles thanks to their acceleration.

Plus in the UK over 50% of car trips are less than 2 miles. So even a cheap EV like a Nissan Leaf would be sufficient for the majority of trips. Clearly not ideal if you want to drive to John O’groats but realistically very few people do.

Rory Forbes
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 12:30 am

I’ve driven both. There’s a great deal more to driving than acceleration. I lived (and drove) in the UK for many years. I wouldn’t even bother taking my care on a trip less than 1 mile. I don’t think EVs have a future … too many problems. Government will sell people on them and then make them too impractical to use. The British people are about to live in a dictatorship of their own making … a nation of sheep, with an ass for a leader. It’s lost the plot.

Klem
Reply to  Rory Forbes
September 14, 2021 1:05 am

Of course EVs have future, they give governments the ability to control you. That’s why governments are mandating the elimination of ICE cars by 2035, EVs are a Marxists dream come true.

Charles Fairbairn
Reply to  Klem
September 14, 2021 1:52 am

Yes. Once you have been coerced into having an EV and a Smart Meter , the marxist cabal of the “Party” will have you by the short and curlies.

B Clarke
Reply to  Charles Fairbairn
September 14, 2021 2:54 am

Smart meters will be another off switch working in tandem with smart chargers, had yet another letter yesterday trying to get us to have one fixed in.

Klem
Reply to  B Clarke
September 14, 2021 8:05 am

Mine has already been installed, they did it in about 15 minutes. I didn’t even know they were there.

B Clarke
Reply to  Klem
September 14, 2021 8:10 am

Well there has to be some useful idiots

MarkW
Reply to  Klem
September 14, 2021 8:29 am

 I didn’t even know they were there.

For government, that is a plus.

Neo
Reply to  Klem
September 14, 2021 9:56 am

I suppose you got happy joy joy feelings

walt
Reply to  B Clarke
September 14, 2021 9:15 am

You were expecting those love notes weren’t you.

John in Oz
Reply to  B Clarke
September 14, 2021 6:14 pm

South Australia already has a requirement for new solar installations to have a ‘relevant agent’ (obvious what that is, isn’t it?) that can switch off your feed-in whenever a responsible department (Government?) tells them to.

This is because we have been convinced that rooftop solar is good but it has become too good and the grid becomes over-supplied at times and they do not have a hole to bury the spare electrons in

niceguy
Reply to  B Clarke
September 15, 2021 5:49 am

Yes but electricity is simple and easy compared to natgas.
These are just cables! (Although I expect some incompetence from fraudsters and some fires.)

DaveS
Reply to  Rory Forbes
September 14, 2021 1:20 am

The sad reality is, currently there aren’t many western European, North American or Australasian countries which don’t have an ass for a leader.

Dave Fair
Reply to  DaveS
September 14, 2021 12:39 pm

I wish the U.S. had one.

mikeyj
Reply to  DaveS
September 14, 2021 12:53 pm

None.

mikeyj
Reply to  DaveS
September 14, 2021 12:55 pm

none

Rasa
Reply to  Rory Forbes
September 14, 2021 3:32 am

It will be interesting how they tax the EVs in the future. I mean vehicles on the road will somehow have to fund road development/repairs. As EVs are heavier they will create more wear and tear on the roads?
Should they be charged a premium over lighter ICE vehicles?

walt
Reply to  Rasa
September 14, 2021 8:48 am

Taxes will be collected automatically when ever you draw a watt.

Hammerhead
Reply to  Rasa
September 14, 2021 9:05 am

VED does not fund road infrastructure in the UK. It is funded by general taxation, so everyone paying Income Tax, VAT, Capital Gains, etc… Is funding the infrastructure.

It has been this way for nearly 100 years yet still the ignorant believe otherwise.

Sunderlandsteve
Reply to  Hammerhead
September 14, 2021 10:44 am

VED is just a drop in the ocean compared to the billions that will be lost from fuel duty and VAT on fuel which will need to be replaced.

whiten
Reply to  Hammerhead
September 14, 2021 10:48 am

And that is exactly how the grid electrical infrastructure will be funded in the future.

That is how that capital asset ends up turned in a government monopoly.
A Great ripoff of taxpayers…. and with a full centralized government control over it.

With legislation going as far as securing the wages of workers, in case of financial collapse, and fully dependent on taxes.

cheers

whiten
Reply to  whiten
September 14, 2021 2:10 pm

It is just simply a drill, a pilot exercise of power.
On how to best control the masses.

cheers

Reply to  Hammerhead
September 14, 2021 12:39 pm

You are, of course, quite correct.
But the roads – at the moment – still have to be maintained.

Auto

MarkW
Reply to  Hammerhead
September 15, 2021 12:23 pm

Not everyone lives in UK. Why do you assume they were talking about the UK and only the UK?
Or are you just trying to be disruptive?

bill Johnston
Reply to  Rory Forbes
September 14, 2021 5:56 am

However, they would be practical if some urban planners have their way and convince people to reside in high rises instead of being spread all over the country side.

GeoGeek
Reply to  bill Johnston
September 14, 2021 7:20 am

However, if people live in high rises, where will they park their EVs? Can’t park them inside garages, so they will have to park and charge them in large parking lots surrounding the high rises.

beng135
Reply to  GeoGeek
September 14, 2021 11:26 am

Private vehicles will be banned. All will be required to travel in goobermint EV buses w/windows blacked out.

walt
Reply to  bill Johnston
September 14, 2021 8:51 am

Pandemic social distancing will be easy with the high rises because they can be locked down with a digital switch.

starzmom
Reply to  bill Johnston
September 14, 2021 9:43 am

In some places high rises are designed to eliminate vehicle use altogether. They don’t bother to provide any semblance of parking for anything.

beng135
Reply to  bill Johnston
September 14, 2021 11:14 am

And High-rises are more easily modified into high-capacity labor-camps.

Last edited 8 days ago by beng135
Rory Forbes
Reply to  bill Johnston
September 14, 2021 8:50 pm

I believe the plan is to phase out personal vehicles altogether. They won’t be needed after the “great reset”. The UN’s Agenda 21/30 is behind most of this stuff … funded by “climate change” waste.

GregK
Reply to  Rory Forbes
September 14, 2021 7:54 pm

EVs will be useful as city commuting vehicles, buses and delivery trucks in cities if we can find a way to power them efficiently.

The transition from horses to internal combustion vehicles was a major improvement to city environments and the health of city dwellers as they were no longer knee deep in horse poop. Similarly EVs should help clean up city air which is surely a good thing. Though virtue signalling city dwellers may try to force us non-city dwellers to give up our diesel work vehicles.

And then there will be the consequences of concentrated EV use in cities.
Ozone pollution springs to mind.

Rory Forbes
Reply to  GregK
September 14, 2021 8:47 pm

Similarly EVs should help clean up city air which is surely a good thing.

That was mostly addressed successfully over two decades ago.

EVs will be useful as city commuting vehicles, buses and delivery trucks in cities if we can find a way to power them efficiently.

I hate to sound cynical, but “if frogs had wings they wouldn’t bump their asses so much”. When horses were phased out over a few decades,we already had electric vehicles, steam vehicles and two types of ICE engines. Presently we have very efficient ICE vehicles and not particularly useful EVs. “If” hasn’t served us very well.

Before we even think about EVs, we need to end the insanity promoting wind and solar as alternatives for what we have now. In fact we need to start installing nuclear power and forget electric cars until we have a reliable alternative to hydrocarbon fuels.

MarkW
Reply to  GregK
September 15, 2021 12:25 pm

Cars are one of the smallest components of air pollution in cities.
For modern cars, when in cities, the air going out the back end is cleaner than the air going in the front end.

Earthling2
Reply to  MarkW
September 16, 2021 12:27 pm

Why don’t you provide some links to this lie about the exhaust being cleaner than than the intake city ambient air that you have continually stated here for years, but as usual, all you do is assert. Are you a paid troll?

DaveS
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 1:16 am

Very few people only do trips of less than 2 miles (and, other than the infirm, why they need to use a car for such a short trip in the first place would seem a valid question).

Dave Fair
Reply to  DaveS
September 14, 2021 12:42 pm

Why is it that so many people believe they have the right, much less the knowledge, to dictate others’ wants and needs?

mikeyj
Reply to  Dave Fair
September 14, 2021 12:57 pm

they think they are smarter.

Rah
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 1:19 am

All the above dependent on the EV being charged or not, on grids made less stable and reliable by “Renewable energy” sources. Which is the point of the post.

Craig from Oz
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 1:44 am

Your ‘50% of car trips’ claim is not completely useful in context.

Or, to be honest, even supports your argument.

If 50% are under 2 miles then the other 50% are over that distance. So clearly it is saying that long distance travel IS a real thing for a REAL percentage of car users.

These figures may also be misleading. If you drive for 2 miles – down the shops at a rough suggestion – you are unlikely to be spending long in the car. My trip computer use to tell me I averaged something like 36km/h urban driving so your 2 mile/3.2km drive is about 5 to 6 minutes.

Meaning you have plenty of time left in your day to get back in the car and go for another 3km drive.

If you had to drive for half an hour to get somewhere (common – my work trip is 40minutes) you will rack up one trip, but more distance than say a 5 minute trip to the shops followed by a return 5 minutes drive half an hour later. More trips, shorter total distance.

Hence I put to you that the 50% of trips are under 2 miles is not a useful statement and requires more comparison data to allow us to reach useful conclusions.

Also, are you really claiming a Nissan Leaf is FUN to drive? Yeah… no.

Jim Gorman
Reply to  Craig from Oz
September 14, 2021 6:06 am

What is the variance associated with the “average”. If you don’t know the variance you have no clue as to the distribution shape.

kzb
Reply to  Jim Gorman
September 14, 2021 7:21 am

Average car mileage in UK is only a little over 7,000 miles per year. I was surprised at this statistic, because I recall it being 12,000 miles some time ago. I suspect there are a lot more two-car households than there used to be.
My own mileage before Covid was 20,000 p.a. and there is no shortage of people doing that kind of mileage. I doubt annual mileage is a Normal distribution.

Dave Fair
Reply to  kzb
September 14, 2021 12:44 pm

Again, one (electric) shoe fits everybody.

Reply to  kzb
September 14, 2021 2:02 pm

Yup, I’ve been doing 12K per year since the old days. 7K??? girls. Pah!

Dennis
Reply to  kzb
September 14, 2021 8:29 pm

My last SUV 2013-2017 averaged 50,000 kilometres a year, it’s replacement 2017-2021 will soon be booked in for a 110,000 kilometre service, COVID period reduced travel for me.

What deters me from buying an EV is, not necessarily in this order;

  • Price much more than an equivalent ICEV
  • Lack of recharging services off main highways
  • Recharge 30-60 minutes for only 80% charge
  • Full charge several hours, not recommended regularly
  • Highway speed, load on board and towing energy loss factors, ignore published range, real range far less
  • Deduct 50% from real range towing a heavy trailer
  • Resale value loss on ICEV if traded in on an EV
  • In Australia 70% or more electricity is fossil fuel powered
MarkW
Reply to  Dennis
September 15, 2021 12:30 pm

Both heat and cold will reduce your drive range by making the battery less efficient. Electric cars have to heat your vehicle directly using a heat pump or straight resistive heat, since it’s too difficult the extract the diffuse heat from the motor and battery.

Craig from Oz
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 1:50 am

To ramble on a bit more, I would suggest that the average EV car is built as a ‘nice car’ targeted at people with a bit of disposable.

They would be more expensive than most and hence they had bloody well better have at least some nice handling.

Again, if you honestly think a Nissan Leaf is a fun car to drive I have concerns about you. Small common market cars, no matter what donk you give them, are still small common market cars aimed at safe boring drivers who do safe boring things on a restricted budget. Yes some people have restricted budgets, but that doesn’t make their cars fun.

Steve
Reply to  Craig from Oz
September 14, 2021 6:38 am

“Safe boring drivers doing safe boring things”….what, like following the road rules and speed limits..?

Simon
Reply to  Craig from Oz
September 14, 2021 11:59 am

But, if you want fun… the performance of say a Lamborghini at a third of the price, buy a Tesla 3. A fraction of the running expense and almost no maintenance costs to boot. Charges at night so no need to visit gas stations and 300 plus miles on a charge. Engines will do a million mile and the latest batteries are safe. And the tech in them is beyond belief. But hey EV’s are boring right.

Lrp
Reply to  Simon
September 14, 2021 12:40 pm

You’re a clown to compare a Lamborghini with a Tesla

Simon
Reply to  Lrp
September 14, 2021 1:06 pm

Sorry who is the clown? I compared the speed, maintenance and running costs. If you want to compare the new Models S Plaid well you are right, there is no comparison when it comes to speed and the Model S is significantly cheaper. But hey, keep dragging those knuckles.

Last edited 8 days ago by Simon
Bryan A
Reply to  Lrp
September 14, 2021 8:20 pm

Especially a 3

Simon
Reply to  Bryan A
September 14, 2021 9:12 pm

No. The tesla 3 performance does 0-60 in 3.3 seconds which is faster than many Lamborghinis.
https://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/lamborghini-0-60-mph-times/

Last edited 8 days ago by Simon
Bryan A
Reply to  Simon
September 15, 2021 9:33 am

And in a coast to coast cross country race across the U.S., the Lamborghini would win hands down AND let everyone watching know when it was going to pass, even the blind.

Simon
Reply to  Bryan A
September 15, 2021 12:03 pm

Yes in a coast to race it would. Now let me think when was the last time I did a coast to coast race? Hmmm that’s right. Never.

Dave Fair
Reply to  Simon
September 14, 2021 12:45 pm

An ad for the rich; nothing more.

Dennis
Reply to  Dave Fair
September 14, 2021 8:32 pm

That’s it, fact is that most people struggle to afford a new ICEV and cannot afford an EV equivalent costing twice as much, that’s a lot of fuel and servicing costs before an EV estimated savings kicks in.

Simon
Reply to  Dennis
September 14, 2021 9:08 pm

Price will come down. Tesla 2 next of the rack, said to be a lot cheaper

Bryan A
Reply to  Simon
September 15, 2021 9:39 am

And a lot smaller
Of course Tesla is “Aiming to get the car under $25,000” which means, in Tesla Speak, (like the 3) it will actually be priced at $32k+

MarkW
Reply to  Simon
September 15, 2021 12:31 pm

A lot of things are said regarding “future” Teslas. Few of those claims every make it to the show room floor.

Duane
Reply to  Craig from Oz
September 14, 2021 6:57 pm

Apparently you’ve never driven a Tesla or a Ford Mach E.

Simon
Reply to  Duane
September 14, 2021 11:04 pm

Exactly. And you get the feeling they would rather pull their teeth out.

DonM
Reply to  Duane
September 16, 2021 8:32 am

.. and they haven’t driven them for more that 250 miles without a substantial break.

DonM
Reply to  Duane
September 16, 2021 8:33 am

How far does the Ford go ???

Hashbang
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 2:36 am

Most of my trips are of the order of 8-10km. Fairly short but when I want to go on a long trip I want to go on a long trip and that has been hundreds and on occasions thousands of km. I am not going to sacrifice that freedom to “save the planet” from a mythical threat.

The internal combustion engine has never been more efficient or clean and there is no sane reason to abandon it. Furthermore, the impractical “clean, green” EVs to come will no doubt be self driving and networked.

ICE or EV, those two “advancements” have to be rejected. Why? Because the self drive aspect will further dumb down and deskill the population even more so than now and the networked aspect will give the governments literal control of your mobility.

It’s not too much of a stretch to expect “no drive days” where your smart car simply will not start because it has been command as such. How about restricted areas days? Want to drive to the CBD or some “endangered” location in the country? That won’t be happening if it is decreed by whoever is on high. The possibilities are endless. Hopefully enough of the population will wake up soon enough but I highly doubt it.

Juan Slayton
Reply to  Hashbang
September 14, 2021 5:48 am

I personally don’t think the self-driving car will survive the initial wave of personal injury lawsuits because of guidance system failures. But personal injury lawyers will have a field day. I can see the TV ads now….

Dennis
Reply to  Juan Slayton
September 14, 2021 8:34 pm

In Australia EV must display a blue registration plate sticker to alert road authorities, an exothermic reaction inferno is very difficult to extinguish.

Imagine a fire like that in peak hour traffic, in a road tunnel, in an underground carpark and other people traps.

TonyG
Reply to  Dennis
September 15, 2021 9:42 am

“In Australia EV must display a blue registration plate sticker to alert road authorities”

I wish we had something that obvious here. For hybrids, too. Standard extrication procedures for ICE could end up killing a rescuer on a EV.

yirgach
Reply to  Hashbang
September 14, 2021 7:34 am

In the US the average is 8-10 trips/day/household. Much greater than the UK/EU because of the difference in population densities.

old engineer
Reply to  Hashbang
September 14, 2021 10:27 am

In the U.S., way back in the very late 60’s or very early 70’s, the EPA did some studies and came with 7.5 miles as the average trip length. That why the EPA emission test driving cycle is 7.5 mile long. Whether that is still the average trip length, I don’t know. But it is certainly more than 10 km (6 miles)

TonyG
Reply to  Hashbang
September 14, 2021 10:58 am

“Most of my trips are of the order of 8-10km”

I’m not doing anything without driving at least 10 miles (16km). “2 miles” barely gets me to the highway.

beng135
Reply to  TonyG
September 14, 2021 11:31 am

Same w/me. 2.5 miles to the highway and 12 miles to the nearest town.

Dennis
Reply to  TonyG
September 14, 2021 8:36 pm

If EV ranges were higher than an equivalent ICEV the EV sales people would be highlighting range instead of their pathetic excuse for low range that people do not need better range.

Dave Fair
Reply to  Hashbang
September 14, 2021 12:50 pm

The regulations also call for random 30-minute charger cutoffs in addition to the morning and afternoon cutoffs. Never underestimate the politicians and Deep State operatives’ ability to turn a nice niche technology into a mass distribution disaster.

Last edited 8 days ago by Dave Fair
sturmudgeon
Reply to  Hashbang
September 14, 2021 12:54 pm

Your first para echoes the thoughts I had re the “self-driving” aspect… the constant (with most of us, I hope) concentration and also the sense of doing a thing well, is certainly not something I will relinquish. Cannot see the sense in going in that ‘zombie’ direction.

Duane
Reply to  Hashbang
September 14, 2021 7:05 pm

The EVs are available with optional larger battery packs than deliver 300+ to 400+ miles driving range. If you average 70 mph on a cross county trip, that’s 4-5 hours endurance. Your bladder won’t last that long, but then maybe you wear Depends on a long road trip.

In any event that kind of endurance with bathroom stops every couple hours means you only need lengthy stop once for lunch, during which you can hook up to a rapid charger that can charge 80% of capacity in under 30 minutes, then you’re good for the rest of the day’s trip.

So the issue is not range as it is availability of rapid Chargers. Of course the modern car navigators and cell phone mapping apps can direct you to wherever the existing rapid Chargers are located.

MarkW
Reply to  Duane
September 15, 2021 12:35 pm

5 minutes to pee. 45 minutes standing around watching the grass grow while you wait for your car to finish charging.

Every rapid charge reduces the life expectancy of your battery.

Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 4:01 am

Where ever you live, f.e. in cities you always are able to recharge ?
No, you are not, and even if, thete is the fear to be cut of the grid 😀
So the liberty is very limited, so why care about acceleration with empty battery ? 😀

Last edited 9 days ago by Krishna Gans
Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Krishna Gans
September 14, 2021 7:12 am

Exactly, dv/dt ==> zero with a dead battery.

ddp
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 4:40 am

If so many trips are short ones, then why would acceleration matter? And I haven’t had a problem with the acceleration of ICEs be perfectly adequate.

Rick W Kargaard
Reply to  ddp
September 14, 2021 7:27 am

Yes, I practically never use the acceleration potential of my ICE car. That is for youngsters with noisy mufflers so they can gain a little attention.

Archer
Reply to  Rick W Kargaard
September 14, 2021 8:20 am

I semi-regularly have to use it to get around the odd dozy twat in a hybrid, who has his eyes more on the touch controls than the road that he’s swerving all over.

Dennis
Reply to  ddp
September 14, 2021 8:37 pm

“It’s alright officer, I drive an EV and acceleration is fun.”

MarkW
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 5:39 am

The higher the current draw, the less efficient both the battery and motor are.
If you have a lead foot, you will be recharging a lot more often.

Matthew Bergin
Reply to  MarkW
September 16, 2021 6:11 am

True a couple of years ago I watched the Top Gear test of a Tesla and driving one like a sports car netted them only 55 miles before they ran out of battery not the 300 or so it was supposed to have.

Last edited 7 days ago by Matthew Bergin
Editor
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 5:51 am

You are overlooking the principal problem talked about in the article, why not admit that the renewable storm of the last decade is a major cause of their power grid instability and lack of 24/7 baseload support?

Paul C
Reply to  Sunsettommy
September 15, 2021 4:03 am

And it is only going to get worse. Having despoiled the countryside with industrial whirlygigs, the current trend is for industrial offshore whirlygigs. Local to me, the inshore windfarm is not enough for them, so a cable to bring intermittent power ashore from the massive dogger bank windfarm is currently being laid. The environuts would be manning the barricades if it were any other industrial project despoiling our coastal, and now offshore waters!

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 6:31 am

Most EV’s are small. Hardly big enough to hold a week’s worth of groceries for a family of four or more. That means you have to make *more* trips, perhaps daily, to keep the larder stocked. So you actually wind up using more energy and causing more road use than you would with a mid-size ICE vehicle, especially small cross-overs.

Why are so many elites, people like you, so ignorant of typical automobile usage by the majority of the western world?

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Tim Gorman
September 14, 2021 7:13 am

And waste a lot of energy dragging the mass of that battery around, everywhere you go.

Dennis
Reply to  Carlo, Monte
September 14, 2021 8:40 pm

Road transport operated on small profit margins from payloads, deduct batteries weight from legal weight payload and profit margin disappears.

MarkW
Reply to  Tim Gorman
September 14, 2021 8:33 am

I doubt Izaak is one of the elite. Though he undoubtedly thinks of himself as one.

Sunderlandsteve
Reply to  Tim Gorman
September 14, 2021 11:07 am

I’d be careful calling Izaak an elite, it might give him ideas. 😅

MarkW
Reply to  Sunderlandsteve
September 15, 2021 12:38 pm

Getting ideas is not Izaak’s specialty. He prefers to have people tell him what to think.

Duane
Reply to  Tim Gorman
September 14, 2021 7:08 pm

Actually most EVs are mid size or full size. Tesla is by far the largest volume EV and they sell midsize and full size only.

Dennis
Reply to  Tim Gorman
September 14, 2021 8:39 pm

You are right, but remember that during blackouts you could plug one in to keep your home energised.

[sarc]

Steve
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 6:32 am

Yep.. accelerating to the speed limit… that sure is a lot of fun…all five seconds worth…

Reply to  Steve
September 14, 2021 6:45 am

It’s always amazing to observe these acceleration obsessed idiotc people when targeting a red traffic light in full speed and have to break with glowing wheels. 😀

MarkW
Reply to  Krishna Gans
September 14, 2021 8:34 am

As I told my kids, it doesn’t matter how aggressive you get, you can’t intimidate the traffic light into changing when you want it to.

Dennis
Reply to  Krishna Gans
September 14, 2021 8:42 pm

Tyres, brakes, suspension wear and expenses!!!

Bryan A
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 6:34 am

Accelerate from Zero to Sixty in 20 Hours as that will be the time it takes to recharge at home on a 120v socket corded charger

Paul C
Reply to  Bryan A
September 15, 2021 4:09 am

… but the article is UK-based, where domestic voltage is double that, so zero to sixty only takes 10 hours of recharging – if you remember to override the chargers auto-blackout “feature” 🙂

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 7:09 am

“Accelerate.”

Wow. Count me . . . unimpressed.

MarkW
Reply to  Carlo, Monte
September 15, 2021 12:40 pm

Damning with faint praise. It never ceases to amaze me how so many amateur drivers get hot and bothered about acceleration. It’s handling that matters.

Matthew Bergin
Reply to  MarkW
September 16, 2021 6:16 am

Very true. The trick for winning races is corner exit speed not how fast you enter the corner

walt
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 9:05 am

The EV will still occupy parking spaces, be limited by government control of charging stations, have high insurance rates and planned obsolescence will require expensive upkeep. Their footprint will be exciting when parking garages prohibit them. They will not get more valuable as they age just like the ICE vehicles. Disposal fees will be a big surprise. They are great toys but not much good for providing people mobility freedom.

walt
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 9:14 am

They will be great during heat waves, snow storms and hurricanes. The AC or heater will love competing with the drive train for amps.

Michael Jankowski
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 9:49 am

Yes, “acceleration” and being “much more fun to drive” are key factors in buying a car when “50% of car trips are less than 2 miles.”

Great job of defeating your own stupid argument.

IanE
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 10:17 am

But what about the occasions when one has to go more than EV range? Cars have to do more than just shopping trips, so the only answer would be to have one of each (like the rich do) – until the cut-off date of course, when we will be royally fcuked!

Duane
Reply to  IanE
September 14, 2021 7:14 pm

With the optional upsized battery packs available on most EVs, the range is 300+ to 400+ miles. Which is equivalent to what most IC cars can deliver. If you can hook up to a rapid charger, which can replace 80% of full charge in less than 30 minutes, then a quick stop for lunch is all that’s needed to put in a full day of driving.

The limitation is no longer EV range – the limiting factor is availability of rapid Chargers.

Jim Gorman
Reply to  Duane
September 15, 2021 6:25 am

I may be mistaken, but I think those ranges are from full to zero charge. 80% to 20% is really 60% of the full range. That means a range of 180 – 240 miles. And that needs to be reduced further when heat or air conditioning is used. God forbid you tow anything or have a full luggage rack with suitcases on top. Now your down to perhaps 120 miles. That’s not even 2 hours of driving on an interstate highway in the U.S. Then tack on an hour wait time for a charger and another 30 – 40 minutes for a charge. If you think free charging stations are going to be provided to cover the number of peak charging needs you are nuts.

Good luck on convincing people EV’s are a good thing in flyover country in the U.S. or Australia!

MarkW
Reply to  Duane
September 15, 2021 12:41 pm

Each time you rapid charge, you are dramatically decreasing your batteries expected life.

Also that range is only for a fresh from the factory battery.
After a few dozen rapid charges, you will start seeing a noticeable drop in range.

Last edited 7 days ago by MarkW
mrsell
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 11:18 am

EVs are so much more fun to drive than ICE vehicles

When you can charge them…

But apparently the UK grid is so fragile that power rationing is starting now for EVs even with their current low adoption rate. Can you imagine how little time there will be to charge EVs when everyone is forced to buy them?

Dennis
Reply to  mrsell
September 14, 2021 8:43 pm

Rationing, odds and evens registration plate permitted recharging days a week.

Book a holiday travel plan and permission to use public recharging stations.

Patrick MJD
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 8:22 pm

Nissan Leaf is OK, until the battery fails. Here in Australia a customer was quoted AU$30,000 for a replacement because the battery failed due to poor design and no cooling. The vehicle was out of warranty.

Patrick MJD
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 8:41 pm

Acceleration in an EV, specifically a Tesla, is largely down to final drive ratio. IIRC, the final drive ratio of a Tesla S is 9.5:1. So it will accelerate like a stabbed rat.

Upfrontaussie
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 8:41 pm

Your an idiot,I have a 78 Porsche 911sc and even at 60 klms per hour would be more fun than these sowing machines.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 15, 2021 5:23 am

Are you comparing EVs with similarly priced ICE vehicles? An ICE muscle car can drive all day with a few stops for gasoline. A high end EV must wait while charging. ICE vehicle can repeatedly make quick accelerations. EVs need to wait while the batteries cool down. ICE vehicles can be repeatedly driven fast with quick acceleration without requiring an engine change. If you drive the same way in your EV you will destroy the battery. Maybe in the UK your trips are short, but in the US 2 miles gets me to the main road and back.

Last edited 8 days ago by Trying to Play Nice
Tony Taylor
Reply to  Rory Forbes
September 14, 2021 12:21 am

Look smug.

Leo Smith
Reply to  Tony Taylor
September 14, 2021 1:04 am

It’s not called a Toyota Pious for no reason…

Steve Case
Reply to  Rory Forbes
September 14, 2021 12:37 am

 What can they do that ICE vehicles can’t do better?

Drive one and find out. I seriously want a small two door hatchback electric to zip around town in.

MarkW
Reply to  Steve Case
September 14, 2021 5:42 am

Then buy one. Three provisions.
Use your own money to buy it.
Don’t accept any of the on the road subsidies.
Don’t force those who don’t agree with you to buy them as well.

Bryan A
Reply to  Steve Case
September 14, 2021 6:42 am

One word then…
Aptera

Last edited 8 days ago by Bryan A
Bryan A
Reply to  Bryan A
September 14, 2021 4:46 pm

Sooo, what don’t you like about Aptera? It’s just what Steve Case was looking for. A 2 door hatchback to zip around town in.

Last edited 8 days ago by Bryan A
Rick W Kargaard
Reply to  Steve Case
September 14, 2021 7:31 am

I have an electric bicycle that can accomplish that without threatening my pocket book or the grid.

walt
Reply to  Steve Case
September 14, 2021 9:31 am

You are joking aren’t you. Your EV will be taxed both for distance driven and watts for charging. You will love the slogan “Taxes charged for charging.”

beng135
Reply to  walt
September 14, 2021 11:38 am

Two birds w/one stone. Both your car AND you getting charged at the same time.

Lrp
Reply to  Steve Case
September 14, 2021 12:48 pm

Who cares what you want?

Paul C
Reply to  Steve Case
September 15, 2021 4:16 am

I think what you really want is a mobility scooter. If you really want the thrill of electric speed and acceleration, change the 8 mph UK speed restriction to the US setting.

Pariah Dog
Reply to  Rory Forbes
September 14, 2021 1:45 am
Ron Long
Reply to  Rory Forbes
September 14, 2021 3:39 am

Looks like this recharging uncertainty will cause some EV users to buy another (expensive) battery so that one can be charging while one is in use. They tend to be heavy so need them segmented. Never mind the children mining cobalt and the lithium extraction, when you are virtue-signaling it’s the only important thing.

walt
Reply to  Ron Long
September 14, 2021 9:36 am

The sale of back up batteries will be limited because of safety restrictions. Imagine the time involved in swapping out your light weight battery pack. if the battery is light enough to pull and replace they will be easy to steal. Property insurance costs will increase to cover losses from battery fires.

mrsell
Reply to  Ron Long
September 14, 2021 11:29 am

Looks like this recharging uncertainty will cause some EV users to buy another (expensive) battery so that one can be charging while one is in use.

What might happen is that people purchase “black market” chargers that don’t have this time-based limitation, or in desperation charge their EVs using a fossil-fuel powered generator when electricity is completely cut off to the house (government forced power rationing).

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Ron Long
September 14, 2021 11:56 am

It would probably be easier for them to buy two EV’s so they can drive one while they are charging one.

Duane
Reply to  Rory Forbes
September 14, 2021 11:21 am

A stupid government rule – stupid government rules, who’d a thunk it? – does not change the fact that most charging of battery electric chargers will take place overnight. Because that’s when most people are least likely to be driving. Nothing changed there at all.

In between overnight charging sessions – which on average will be necessary only once or twice a week for most daily drivers, with current gen EVs having ranges of 250+ to 400+ miles – most people are only going to need a top off to get to their home, which top off charges takes only abut 20-30 minutes.

Limiting or prohibiting charging by hour of the day is really stupid. But hey, that’s what governments do. In part because of shift workers, and in large part because it’s dumb for the government to control how and when to refuel your vehicle. Personal circumstances vary far too much to do that.

MarkW
Reply to  Duane
September 15, 2021 12:46 pm

Constantly topping off your battery is going to be murder on your batteries life expectancy.
Depending on who you talk to, best charge/discharge patterns for Li batteries is down to 10, up to 90. Or down to 20 up to 80. Anything else shortens your batteries life expectancy.

That range is only when the battery is new. As it ages, the capacity goes down.

Mike McMillan
September 13, 2021 10:27 pm

Charging between 10pm and 8am may be OK for some, but what about shift workers?

We cannot ignore the needs of the many to coddle the minor quirks of the few.

If they find themselves inconvenienced, shift workers should consider the greater good of society and find sustainable jobs in the new green industries, which use only renewable power and thus operate only during the daylight hours when the wind is blowing.

Rory Forbes
Reply to  Mike McMillan
September 13, 2021 10:53 pm

I never could quite wrap my head around the concept of “renewable power”. Isn’t the whole idea behind “renewable” that it can be reused … like shoe renew? I feel cheated. What part of the power is renewable after use? They make it sound so green and revolutionary.

Redge
Reply to  Rory Forbes
September 13, 2021 11:15 pm

fossil fuels are renewable – plant food 😀

Oldseadog
Reply to  Rory Forbes
September 14, 2021 1:38 am

They are called renewables ‘cos they don’t last long so you have to keep renewing them.

MarkW
Reply to  Rory Forbes
September 14, 2021 8:37 am

Electricity is a scam. Have you ever noticed that you pay the electric company to send you electrons, then they force you to send those same electrons back to them.

pigs_in_space
Reply to  Mike McMillan
September 13, 2021 11:15 pm

And NO digging up peat to keep the house warm!

In nearby Finland, the greenies are already trying to shut that one down one, replacing them with solar panels,-
(I kid you not, at 60N north where it snows a lot & there’s F-A daylight in winter!),-

No Nukes cos they’re dangerous….no oil shale cos of Co2, and no wind power when that pesky Scandinavian anticyclone arrives in winter.

Being as Norway, Sweden, Baltic states have the highest penetration of Teslas in the whole of Europe, one wonders how anyone will power another 1 million EVs.
(They can’t).

DaveS
Reply to  pigs_in_space
September 14, 2021 1:22 am

The (not so hidden) agenda is to force the unwashed masses onto public transport.

H.R.
Reply to  DaveS
September 14, 2021 3:59 am

DaveS: “[…] force the unwashed masses onto public transport.”


Where the ClimaStasi can stroll up and down the aisles checking everyone’s papers to root out Climate Criminals**



**Climate Criminal – Someone who is not doing whatever the State wants them to do, whether or not it has anything to do with climate.

‘Climate Criminal’ will eventually change to ‘Domestic Terrorist’, which will be anyone who so much as dares to take another route to or from work other than their government assigned path or is outside their 10′ x 12′ cube without permission.*** ‘Domestic Terrorists’ will be sent to the gulags for reeducation and some invigorating, unpaid work. Arbeit Macht Frei.



***Oh, wait. The Aussies are almost there. The only thing missing is the 10′ x 12′ cubes, but they’ll get there soon enough. The quarantine camps are a good start.

PaulH
Reply to  Mike McMillan
September 14, 2021 6:42 am

It wouldn’t surprise me to see that time interval change to, say, between 11pm and 7am after “too many” people start charging their vehicles at 10pm.

Rick W Kargaard
Reply to  Mike McMillan
September 14, 2021 7:33 am

There is little sun and winds often die during that period, so how will that electricity be produced?

Thomas Gasloli
Reply to  Rick W Kargaard
September 14, 2021 8:18 am

Oh, there you go, asking practical questions when the impracticality is the point.

beng135
Reply to  Rick W Kargaard
September 14, 2021 11:48 am

Big batteries the size of city-blocks, of course. Wait, I wonder when THOSE batteries are charged?…….

Dave Fair
Reply to  Rick W Kargaard
September 14, 2021 1:08 pm

The “duck curve” will destroy the concept of slightly moving usage to the off-peak period. It is not a peak issue, it is an issue of the availability and reliability of ruinables at any given time.

Paul C
Reply to  Rick W Kargaard
September 15, 2021 4:24 am

It’s the UK. While both are intermittent, there is little sun, but lots of wind for most of the year. We, like most of Europe rely on interconnectors to French Nuclear for grid stability.

Earthling2
September 13, 2021 11:12 pm

Pure BEV’s should be outlawed as a public threat to society, for all the reasons discussed here the last several years. Just imagine the public menace these would impose on society in a real natural disaster with these plugging up the highways as everyone tries and flee a natural disaster such as a hurricane, blizzard or a forest fire. They would have to be just pushed off the road and left for dead. And there is only a few % of all vehicles that are pure BEV’s now. What would this look like at a 50% penetration of BEV’s on the grid, and the highway/streets?

I think a much better alternative if we want to do electrify some personal vehicular transport would be a plug-in hybrid (PHEV). This gives the best of both worlds, and would solve the majority of short haul trips in a city, which is the whole point for better air quality, noise and minimize fossil fuel use in the car, but still allow for exceptional mileage and unlimited range with fossil fuels. It can be plugged into a Level 1 charger on 110/220 that takes about 1.5 kW to charge, (or charge faster on a Level 2 charger if you like) and wouldn’t have to be restricted to charging at any time of the day. Much smaller battery, much smaller more efficient ICE, especially if an Atkinson Cycle engine, and still do short haul trips around town up to 40-50 miles, or drive 500 miles on 10-12 gallons of gas. Just simple common sense, because we all know that having 100-250 kW charging stations just ain’t gonna happen for many more pure BEV’S.

Last edited 9 days ago by Earthling2
Chaswarnertoo
Reply to  Earthling2
September 13, 2021 11:48 pm

Why do you believe modern cars cause air quality problems? They don’t.
See Oxford St for details, no private cars allowed.

Earthling2
Reply to  Chaswarnertoo
September 14, 2021 12:11 am

Then why not just hook up a hose from the exhaust pipe into your house and capture all that waste heat?

MarkW
Reply to  Earthling2
September 14, 2021 5:46 am

Almost all the oxygen has been used up in exhaust.
Beyond that, who keeps their car running after they get home just to heat the garage?

Last edited 9 days ago by MarkW
Chaswarnertoo
Reply to  Earthling2
September 14, 2021 5:59 am

Still won’t kill you. Some silly girl tried the hosepipe round to the window trick in her new Mini and after 4 hours had a bit of a headache. Bloody expensive way to heat a house. You’re a bit of an idiot aren’t you?

Earthling2
Reply to  Chaswarnertoo
September 14, 2021 6:55 am

No more of an idiot than you for even bringing up the issue, as the greens are the ones bringing up all the issues why we need EV’s in the first place, part of which is clean air in large urban areas. Try and argue this issue without a sensible solution, which I provided with the PHEV, and there is no sense even having any discussion with the rest of the world. Try jogging in many major cities anywhere, even with new vehicles and your lungs will feel the exhaust of tens of thousands of pure ICE vehicles. You are the spoiler in this debate.

MarkW
Reply to  Earthling2
September 14, 2021 8:41 am

In most large cities, the air coming out the back of the car is cleaner than the air going in the front.
Drop your hatred and spend some time learning.
There are millions of sources of pollution in cities, cars are amongst the least important.
Your local restaurant is putting way more pollutants into the air.

Anyone who doesn’t share your delusions is part of the problem?
Really?

Earthling2
Reply to  MarkW
September 16, 2021 11:42 am

Why don’t you provide some links for your eternal idiotic claim about the air coming out the back of a ICE is cleaner than the air going in the front? Talk about ignorant liars repeating their lies over and over. You make Griff look like a genius.

Greg
Reply to  Earthling2
September 13, 2021 11:49 pm

What the hell is a BEV, please don’t introduce silly acronyms with defining them.

Earthling2
Reply to  Greg
September 14, 2021 12:00 am

Battery Electric Vehicle. That term is used here all the time. The way you can tell, is that EV comes after B, for Battery.

rbabcock
Reply to  Earthling2
September 14, 2021 4:52 am

It is not an acronym everyone knows, even on this site. Try spelling out the term, put the acronym in parens after and then use the acronym in the rest of the text where used. Ex: Battery Electric Vehicle (BEV). You did it for PHEV “plug-in hybrid (PHEV)”

MarkW
Reply to  Earthling2
September 14, 2021 5:47 am

I’ve seen it a few times. This is the first time I’ve seen it defined.

stewartpid
Reply to  Greg
September 14, 2021 9:10 am

Gents / Ladies …. acronyms are a royal pain in the arse when u don’t know them but almost every single acronym can easily be found on a quick search. BEV is no exception …. try it!!

Dave Fair
Reply to  stewartpid
September 14, 2021 1:13 pm

An author is responsible for defining his terms. A reader should not have to search for an unfamiliar term. Even on WUWT, one should define GHE before use.

DonM
Reply to  Dave Fair
September 16, 2021 8:37 am

wuwt??

Greg
Reply to  Earthling2
September 13, 2021 11:52 pm

That is a very good point about these vehicles being a danger to life in an emergency. Those with not enough charge will just make a run for it and get as far as they can. At which point the entire road network goes into gridlock.

StephenP
Reply to  Earthling2
September 14, 2021 12:15 am

A good analysis of the problems with EVs and a neat solution.
I must say that I had to look up how an Atkinson engine works, and was surprised that the concept was invented as long ago as 1882.
The Beeb are up to their daily dose of doom and gloom, the current being a fixation with temperatures going above 50C.
Looking at gridwatch, I see that we have now gone three months in the UK with wind seriously underperforming.
Imagine the fun at Christmas in the future electric society, with cooking the turkey, charging the car to visit relations, heating the house and having a shower all at the same time.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Earthling2
September 14, 2021 12:05 pm

What about a hybrid that doesn’t need to be plugged in, where the internal combustion engine does most of the work? This way, you eliminate the need to drastically change the electrical grid, but you also reduce gasoline consumed.

I don’t know how much gasoline a plug-in hybrid would save over a non-plug-in hybrid, but my guess is it wouldn’t be that much. Not worth turning the whole electrical grid upside down.

Dave Fair
Reply to  Tom Abbott
September 14, 2021 1:16 pm

The grid produces electricity to charge a battery much more efficiently than does a local ICE.

CapitalistRoader
Reply to  Dave Fair
September 14, 2021 3:25 pm

That depends on lots of variables. Electricity is a secondary power source. A primary power source has to generate electricity, so it depends on the grid’s primary power source mix.

Last edited 8 days ago by CapitalistRoader
MarkW
Reply to  Dave Fair
September 15, 2021 12:51 pm

By the time you add in all the conversion and transmission losses between the boiler and your home, the grid is at absolute best, just as efficient as that ICE.
Most of the time it’s worse.

Chaswarnertoo
September 13, 2021 11:46 pm

The UK grid will probably fall over this winter without powering heat pumps and coal fired cars.
Mr Nut Nut PM’s insanity is showing.

Mark BLR
Reply to  Chaswarnertoo
September 14, 2021 8:17 am

The UK grid will probably fall over this winter …

1) Check out the following Wikipedia page :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_coal-fired_power_stations_in_the_United_Kingdom

2) Despite it saying “Drax stopped burning coal in March 2021″ check for yourself that 2 (660MW) coal-burning “units” are on standby for the UK’s “Capacity Market” until September 2022 (when West Burton and one-quarter of Ratcliffe will also be closed).

3) If the UK “muddles through” this (2021/2) winter, then it will taken as a sign that it is perfectly OK to continue with those planned closures (along with Hunterston B “by January 2022″ and Hinkley Point B in July 2022, two AGR nuclear reactors rated at 1.2GW each …).

I’m more worried (on your behalf, I’m on the other side of the Channel) about next winter, 2022/3 …

UK-Electricity_Coal_2020-2024.png
Mark BLR
Reply to  Mark BLR
September 14, 2021 8:25 am

The equivalent for nukes.

PS : See the following (with the usual “nobody serious uses Wikipedia as a source” disclaimer) :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_commercial_nuclear_reactors#United_Kingdom

UK-Electricity_Nuclear_2020-2024.png
Dave Fair
Reply to  Mark BLR
September 14, 2021 1:21 pm

What happened to the ruinables’ apparent contribution between the summer of 2020 and summer of 2021 based on the differences in coal-fired generation?

Mark BLR
Reply to  Dave Fair
September 15, 2021 3:41 am

based on the differences in coal-fired generation

In the UK coal is now relegated to a relatively small (2-3 GW max) “winter peaker” function, you can’t reach any sweeping conclusions using coal as a baseline.

The following “quick and dirty” graph comes from my version of the “BM Reports” and ESO (National Grid) data, which is in GWh (total energy per day) rather than GW (average power rating over a 24-hour period).

“FF sum” = CCGT + OCGT + Oil + Coal
NB : I included the separate “Coal” line for reference only, it is also included in the “FF sum” line.

“RE sum” = Wind + Solar + Hydro + Biomass
NB : For the UK, “Biomass” essentially = “Drax” …

“ICT sum” = Inter-connectors.
NB (1) : Positive numbers = importing energy to the island of Great Britain overall, negative = exporting from GB.
NB (2) : ICTs “currently” [sic] connect GB to “the island of Ireland” (Moyle + East-West), mainland Europe (IFA + IFA2 + BritNed + NEMO) and Norway (NSL, since mid-June ?).

Looking at the graph, i.e. “the empirical data”, as usual the reaction is … “It’s complicated !”

UK-Electricity_FF-RE-Nuclear-ICTs_010120-070921.png
Coeur de Lion
September 13, 2021 11:46 pm

How does this work? My daughter plugs her Nissan Leaf into my 240v garage point. Are they gonna turn off my house? See you in court.

Leo Smith
Reply to  Coeur de Lion
September 14, 2021 1:08 am

Why else are they forcing you to have a smart meter?
But in reality I suspect that what will happen is that as grid frequency drifts down, the ‘smart charger’ will lower the charge rate. It’s actually not a bad idea. If you must have a BEV at all, which is probably a really bad idea to start with.

Beagle
Reply to  Coeur de Lion
September 14, 2021 1:13 am

I think it refers to the new breed of home charging points. they already were talking about home charging points where they can take power back from your car and pay you less than half of what you paid to charge it. The charge points were around £4000!

MarkW
Reply to  Beagle
September 14, 2021 5:50 am

You need more than a new charger before you can use the cars battery to power the grid. You are going to have to rewire the car as well.

DaveS
Reply to  Coeur de Lion
September 14, 2021 1:25 am

Well, that’s the whole point of smart meters, to enable them to do just that.

Harrow Sceptic
Reply to  Coeur de Lion
September 14, 2021 2:28 am

Reply to Coeur de Lion
There was talk that, at some point. they would have to upgrade Smart Meters so that selective parts of a property’s power could be disabled. Otherwise as you say, how is this going to work.

Laertes
Reply to  Coeur de Lion
September 14, 2021 4:32 am

And the thing about smart meters (mandated by a European Union law in coming years) absolutely proves that they KNOW there won’t be enough electricity for everyone and the plan all along was to severely restrict its use to the common folk. All the lies about green industrial revolution are just that – lies.

“You will own nothing and you will be happy”

MarkW
Reply to  Coeur de Lion
September 14, 2021 5:49 am

That is precisely what they are proposing.

D. J. Hawkins
Reply to  Coeur de Lion
September 14, 2021 6:10 am

The charger itself, through firmware or software, won’t turn on at the restricted times. Likely receives a time code over the mains cabling and does the rest internally.

mrsell
Reply to  D. J. Hawkins
September 14, 2021 11:58 am

Likely receives a time code over the mains cabling and does the rest internally.

There will emerge a black market for chargers that allow for charging at any time, or a defeat mechanism that will trick the charger into thinking that the time is during the permissable charge period when it really isn’t.

Dave Fair
Reply to  mrsell
September 14, 2021 1:27 pm

That will create “green jobs” to police such practices. Such equipment being produced by the ChiComs, along with its fentanyl.

Greg
September 14, 2021 12:00 am

There is neither the generation nor the distribution network to support a massive change to EVs. Neither is there a coherent plan to put one in place. Just mindless commitments “net zero” and phasing out ICE powered vehicles.

The end game of this policy is the loss of the right to own an individual means of transport.

DaveS
Reply to  Greg
September 14, 2021 1:26 am

You’ve got it in one.

gringojay
September 14, 2021 12:04 am

No way? Way!

D1773761-3D86-4321-AA37-22767B35711E.png
Timbotoo
September 14, 2021 12:10 am

Better late than never.

Tony Taylor
September 14, 2021 12:20 am

Don’t worry. The traffic lights won’t work, so you’ll be locked down in blackouts.

Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 12:21 am

This is a non-story. Looking around the actual details are:
“Under regulations lodged with the World Trade Organisation, new chargers in the home and workplace will by default not operate from 8am to 11am and 4pm to 10pm.
Owners will be able to override the preset times, to take account of night workers and people who have different schedules. ”

So all that is happening is that if you buy a charger the preset times of operation are during off-peak hours. But you can change them if you wish.

Earthling2
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 12:57 am

Yes, maybe you right, but then they get you with the ‘Smart Meter’ which regulates your electrical allotment for those times. Demand side management.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 5:20 am

If anyone can change them then what is the sense to have them in the first place.

MarkW
Reply to  Tom in Florida
September 14, 2021 5:54 am

It’s the camel’s nose under the tent.

Chaswarnertoo
Reply to  Tom in Florida
September 14, 2021 6:03 am

Income tax and speed limits were temporary, once…

GeoGeek
Reply to  Chaswarnertoo
September 14, 2021 7:36 am

Speed limits are optional. For example the Atlanta Beltway: Speed limit -55 mph, average speed (not counting gridlock) 80-85 mph.

Dave Fair
Reply to  Tom in Florida
September 14, 2021 1:30 pm

The pricing structure for electricity consumed at your home at different times of the day. It is just a method of increasing the cost of electricity.

MarkW
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 5:52 am

You can override, for now. The next phase, in conjunction with smart meters will be the government having the power to disable charging whenever they want. Regardless of your preferences.

Paul C
Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 6:43 am

If it is too easy to (legally) change the preset times, there is no point in there being preset times, as virtually all users will want their cars charged when they plug them in. If there is a cost penalty for using electricity at peak demand, the majority may suffer the reduced facility. At workplaces, only being able to top up the charge between 11 and 4 may prevent some business travel, or not give sufficient added range to make it all the way home. Range anxiety would be extreme (especially on cold, dark winter evenings – for the UK).
A much better approach would be for the driver to have the facility to simply enter the expected stay in hours (defaulting to driving history). The car and charging systems could then establish the optimal rate of charge to achieve the fullest charge by the departure time. That would allow any excess charging capacity to be used for a combination of grid stability (as in the article), and a slower charge rate for greater efficiency, and to look after the batteries / heat dissipation. That may actually be seen as an improved facility rather than a reduced service.

MarkW
Reply to  Paul C
September 14, 2021 8:44 am

No charging between 11 and 4 makes charging at the office nearly impossible for anyone who works first shift.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  MarkW
September 14, 2021 10:23 am

Their answer will be to get a coding job and work from home.

sturmudgeon
Reply to  Tom in Florida
September 14, 2021 1:22 pm

Back to the ‘obesity’ problem again… oh, wait!.. One can use their EV to go to the gym… oh, wait!… the gym is only open for the “low demand” hours… oh, wait!… that’s when I’m supposed to be charging my EV… THE WHOLE IDEA IS STUPID IN THE EXTREME… THE WORLD ALREADY HAS THE MOST EFFICIENT AND CLEAN METHOD OF TRAVEL.

MarkW
Reply to  sturmudgeon
September 15, 2021 12:57 pm

I’ve been thinking about getting one of these, only hooking it up to a generator. That way I can exercise while coding.

https://www.amazon.com/Hausse-Portable-Exercise-Peddler-Display/dp/B07SFL9P9W/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=Small+Exercise+Bike&qid=1631735777&sr=8-4

Bryan A
Reply to  Paul C
September 14, 2021 8:55 am

The EV solution would be to have Charging stations available at EVERY parking space so cars can be charged during Off Peak Times (mid day while parked at work). Though this would require a MASSIVE infrastructure expenditure to beef up the electric grid to accommodate the added charging demand of Tens of Millions of new EVs and the installation of Tens of Millions of new charging stations just in the U.K.
ICE is here, it works, it’s infrastructure is readily available with no additional capacity requirements. The energy source is high density so has relatively small storage requirements.
If you want an EV to signal your Virtue then I won’t stop you from purchasing one or regulate when or where you can recharge or use it.
Just don’t stop me from buying an ICE vehicle or regulate when and where I can recharge (fill up) or use it.

MarkW
Reply to  Bryan A
September 15, 2021 12:58 pm

Can you imagine the cost of digging up the parking lot so those charging stations can be installed?

Meab
Reply to  Paul C
September 14, 2021 9:17 am

And then what happens when you want to leave early? Maybe there was an emergency? Whoops, the car didn’t get charged.

That’s another reason that Plug-in Hybrids (PHEVs) are FAR better than Battery EVs (BEVs). Need the car on short notice? No problem as long as you have some gas in the tank. Unfortunately, many poorly thought-out government regulations will ban PHEVs along with ICE vechicles.

Reply to  Izaak Walton
September 14, 2021 9:24 am

A fuel station usually is open 365/24/7, no preset, coming, refuel, pay, drive away.

SAMURAI
September 14, 2021 12:27 am

As lunatic Lefties shutdown coal-fired, natural gas and nuclear plants, it will be impossible to avoid blackout and brownouts of just existing electrical demand, and when you throw EVs, in the mix, the whole grid will shutdown…

The math is extremely simple to predict the coming power shortage catastrophe that awaits us if Lefties get their way, but, as AOC once said, “it’s more important to be ‘morally’ correct than to be factually correct…”

Too bad Wokeism only generates political power instead of electrical power…

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  SAMURAI
September 14, 2021 7:21 am

The entropy of the hot air generated by wokes makes it useless.

sturmudgeon
Reply to  SAMURAI
September 14, 2021 1:27 pm

Wonderful final sentence… thanks for the grin.

Dave Fair
Reply to  SAMURAI
September 14, 2021 1:37 pm

All Soviet-style Five-Year Plans look good on paper. They all fail, but it took the Russians 70 years to correct the error. I hope the average person doesn’t take that long to overturn our neo-Marxist government plans for us.

Mark
September 14, 2021 12:28 am

We have said it here many times – the rush to electric won’t happen when the consequences run head first into the laws of physics…..

Looks like TPTB are finally starting to realise ……

Steve Case
Reply to  Mark
September 14, 2021 12:44 am

And TPTB stands for exactly what?

Leo Smith
Reply to  Steve Case
September 14, 2021 1:09 am

The Powers That Be.

Tom in Florida
Reply to  Leo Smith
September 14, 2021 10:22 am

Ohm, I thought it was The Pricks Taking Bribes

beng135
Reply to  Tom in Florida
September 14, 2021 11:55 am

That too.

Dave Fair
Reply to  Tom in Florida
September 14, 2021 1:38 pm

Same people.

Chris Nisbet
September 14, 2021 12:45 am

I kinda believe the claim that EVs won’t trouble the grid. I believe them because they’re outright telling us that they’ll disconnect them from the grid when they need to.
I also suspect we’ll see the introduction of a new crime at some point – illegal charging of an EV.

David Stone CEng
Reply to  Chris Nisbet
September 14, 2021 1:06 am

They and other things are already troubling the Grid. Lots more nuclear is the only way to go, we need at least 10 more large ones to start build about 5 years ago!

mrsell
Reply to  Chris Nisbet
September 14, 2021 12:03 pm

I kinda believe the claim that EVs won’t trouble the grid.

The grid is already in trouble – wait until the adoption rate for EVs rise above “status symbol”.

Chris Nisbet
Reply to  mrsell
September 14, 2021 12:41 pm

Yup. If it gets really bad they simply start load shedding. The grid will be fine – it’ll be the people who want to use it that will be in trouble.
I’m just trying to think like a politician here and imagine the weasel words they’ll use when they tell us the grid is all good.

Peta of Newark
September 14, 2021 12:53 am

It’s also why Smart Meters are ‘needed’

The electric car not only becomes its own Smart Meter of what goes into it, it will monitor consumption, all aspects of where, when, which road, how fast, how many passengers etc etc and a tax/levy/charge will be calculated based on same.

There will be no escape by suggesting that ‘my car charges off a normal wall-socket
The car itself will record every detail of everything and be constantly reporting back to its controllers (##)
It opens up a whole new raft of methods & means to criminalise people

Ain’t that just fantastic – you shell out £££ 10’s of thousands $$$ to buy these useless joke-mobiles only to discover that, not only is it not actually yours, it is really a device to rule your world and criminalise you while emptying your bank.

Simply epic, even the victims of the original Trojan Horse Scam were gifted the god-damned thing.
Now we have to buy our own. Is that ‘progress’ – it that = ‘Better Than Ever

All to ensure you stay at home and freeze in the dark while destroying your mind & body on The Recommended Diet of sugar and trash TV
and you feel sorry for the Uyghers?

Maybe Ehrlich should have taken some LSD – we avoided his other, tame & boring, predictions.

## Anonymous & faceless little nobodies, unelected, unaccountable and with all the (ha ha) Power in the World
Well maybe not The World, but the crappy pittance of (electrical) power in the UK and thus quite sufficient to spoil everybody’s day

edit to add:
One is left wondering though. It had been mooted that the batteries of these joke-mobiles could be used to reinforce the grid at times of high demand.
How would that work…..

Turkeys turkeys everywhere and not a drop (of electrical juice) to drink

Last edited 9 days ago by Peta of Newark
Peta of Newark
Reply to  Peta of Newark
September 14, 2021 1:16 am

too late for an edit edit.
It would become a Civic Duty to connect your car to the charger (a punishable crime if you don’t) so as to allow them to drain it while not letting it recharge.

Simplicity, not electricity, itself and more revenue for Social Care
i.e.The business of feeding, and changing the nappies of, all the demented cabbages that Government itself created via imposition of a meat-free Mediterranean Diet style diet.

Dave Fair
Reply to  Peta of Newark
September 14, 2021 1:41 pm

Big Brother was a piker.

Matthew Sykes
September 14, 2021 1:20 am

This is turning into a farce. They ban all but electric cars, long before beefing up the electric grid to carry the extra power, or planning and building new power stations.

Realising the hole they got in, they now ration electric car charging!

And they havent even considered that almost all UK parking is on street, and people will have to run electric cable out of their houses, across the pavement, and down the road to where they found a parking space, perhaps 100 yards away!

Talk about trip hazard!

Not to mention those cables being stolen for their copper content in about 5 minutes of being put out!

This government is an utter joke, a farce, and so are battery cars. It isnt going to happen. If we get of gas it will be hydrogen fuel cell/synthetic fuels (including alcohol).

Michael S. Kelly
Reply to  Matthew Sykes
September 14, 2021 8:36 pm

Not to mention the hundreds of miles of evil electric transmission lines that will have to be run from remote renewable energy sources to towns and cities – lines that no one wants to live near because they cause cancer, don’t cha know?

Pamela Matlack-Klein
September 14, 2021 1:40 am

I’ve been anticipating this move as even without factoring in EV charging, the grid is running into trouble in places where wind mills and solar are too big a part of the mix. Between grid instability and a few more fires at charging stations and no one with a working brain is going to want one, even for free! It is just a matter of time before the underground charging station at Norte Shopping in Porto goes up in flame from an overcharged or faulty battery. The carnage will be horrible.

griff
September 14, 2021 1:41 am

I can’t find any confirm on this beyond the Times story (the Mail stole it from the Times)…

At its base it seems to be regulations lodged with the WTO making the default no operation in certain time periods, but completely able to be overridden by owners.

There is no actual govt policy or announcement I can find.

If you look ‘smart charging’ is very much the expectation and would remove any possibility of grid overload.

Joao Martins
Reply to  griff
September 14, 2021 3:06 am

If you look ‘smart charging’ is very much the expectation and would remove any possibility of grid overload.

Of course it is! And grants you a lot of freedom to organize your life and to restore the operationality ( = replenish the battery) of your vehicle when you need!…

2hotel9
Reply to  griff
September 14, 2021 4:23 am

Keep pretending you can’t read, it helps you be a better liar, lie spewing liar.

MarkW
Reply to  griff
September 14, 2021 5:57 am

If it’s so easy to over ride, there is no purpose for them in the first place.
If you look closely, I’m willing to bet these things have the ability to be shut down remotely.

PS: Smart charging may protect the grid, but makes it a crap shoot as to whether you will have a charged battery in the morning when you get ready to drive to work.

Last edited 9 days ago by MarkW
kzb
Reply to  griff
September 14, 2021 7:35 am

As demand from EVs increases, it becomes inevitable there will be no “off peak” period. It will be “peak” 24 hours a day. There will be no cheap rate at night like they are selling currently.
Britain is set to lose a lot of nuclear and fossil-fuel capacity over the next few years. The generation capacity has already been reduced over the past few years, despite the huge proliferation of offshore wind generation. We are definitely heading for a country where electricity use on demand is for the elites only.

Dave Fair
Reply to  griff
September 14, 2021 1:45 pm

Griff, please don’t use the term “grid” because it is obvious you don’t understand what it exactly is and how it actually operates.

Rasa
September 14, 2021 3:28 am

We don’t use the term “Rationing” under the “renewable” “global warming” dialogue.
The New Speak is
……..Demand Management.

Chaswarnertoo
Reply to  Rasa
September 14, 2021 6:01 am

AKA Control.

Dave Fair
Reply to  Rasa
September 14, 2021 1:47 pm

1984 newspeak. Socialism is rationing, Capitalism is abundance.

ozspeaksup
September 14, 2021 3:30 am

Faaaark thats FUNNY!!!!!

willem post
September 14, 2021 4:23 am

ELECTRIC TRANSIT AND SCHOOL BUS SYSTEMS REDUCE LITTLE CO2, ARE NOT COST-EFFECTIVE
https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/electric-bus-systems-likely-not-cost-effective-in-vermont-at
 
China has made electric buses and EVs a priority in urban areas to reduce excessive air pollution, due to: 1) coal-fired power plants, and 2) increased vehicle traffic.
 
The US has much less of a pollution problem than China, except in its larger urban areas. 
The US uses much less coal, more domestic natural gas, and CO2-free nuclear is still around.
 
New England has a pollution problem in its southern urban areas. 
Vermont has a minor pollution problem in Burlington and a few other urban areas. 
 
RE folks want to “Electrify Everything”; an easily uttered slogan

It would require:                                                                      

– Additional power plants, such as nuclear, wind, solar, hydro, bio
– Additional grid augmentation/expansion to connect wind and solar systems, and to carry the loads for EVs and heat pumps
– Additional battery systems to store midday solar output surges for later use, i.e., DUCK-curve management.
– Additional centralized, command/control/orchestrating (turning off/on appliances, heat pumps, EVs, etc.) by utilities to avoid overloading distribution and high voltage electric grids regarding:
 
1) Charging times of EVs and operating times of heat pumps, and major appliances
2) Demands of commercial/industrial businesses

RE Folks Want More EVs and Buses Bought With “Free” Money
 
RE folks drive the energy priorities of New England governments. RE folks want to use about $40 million of “free” federal COVID money and Volkswagen Settlement money to buy electric transit and school buses to deal with a minor pollution problem in a few urban areas in Vermont. RE folks urge Vermonters to buy:
 
Mass Transit Buses 
Electric: $750,000 – $1,000,000 each, plus infrastructures, such as indoor parking, high-speed charging systems.
Standard Diesel: $380,000 – $420,000; indoor parking and charging systems not required.

School Buses
Electric: $330,000 – $375,000, plus infrastructures
Standard Diesel: about $100,000
https://atlaspolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Electric-Buses-a

Bryan A
Reply to  willem post
September 14, 2021 12:19 pm

Sorry kids…
I know it’s snowing…
I know THEY said it was the end of snow but…
Fortunately your school is only about a mile away at the Top of the hill…
The bus needs to recharge for 6 hours before it can move again…
So…
Like your parents…
And your grand parents before…
You will need to walk a mile through the snow, uphill, to get to your school daily.

Michael S. Kelly
Reply to  Bryan A
September 14, 2021 8:29 pm

A mile through the snow uphill, both ways…in July.

And we LOVED it!

Tom Abbott
Reply to  willem post
September 14, 2021 12:29 pm

If they want to electrify buses, they should run wires above the roads that a bus can connect to which will supply the bus with all the electricity it needs to do its job. It’s a little old fashioned, but works just fine, and gets the job done. And you don’t have to bother with large electric battery packs.

2hotel9
September 14, 2021 4:24 am

So real vehicles will not be affected, yet one more reason not to piss away money on these overpriced toys.

Serge Wright
September 14, 2021 4:38 am

An easier and cheaper way to destroy your economy would be to forget RE & EV, just stop importing petrol and shut down the grid. Same outcome but without the billions of wasted money.

Chaswarnertoo
Reply to  Serge Wright
September 14, 2021 6:02 am

That’s what the econazis really want. Silly muppets.

fretslider
September 14, 2021 4:41 am

UK: E-car chargers will turn off to prevent blackouts

Addendum

UK: Smart Meters will turn off to prevent blackouts

UK: Hang on to your gas boilers

Last edited 9 days ago by fretslider
kybill
September 14, 2021 5:25 am

Vehicle choice is not a “one size fits all” scenario. For my retired wife an EV might be ideal. She only travels 25 – 50 miles per day and could easily use chargers on the Walmart lot. We’ve rented a 3800# pull behind your car travel trailer for the week. This is work for the 4Runner. To me it is personnel choice. For the once in a month long distance trips we could use a rental.

Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
September 14, 2021 5:49 am

A patchwork solution at best and only temporary at that. The fundamental problem is as you electrify more things (like home heating) it will shift the load curve so the demand is highest at night in the winter. You can’t meet that load profile with solar, period (or “full stop” as they say in the UK). Forcing Electric Vehicles to charge at night might seem to be a good idea today, but when the load curve shifts we’ll see “public service” announcements telling people to change the time settings on their EV charger at the start and end of heating season.

You must have reliable capacity to handle the peak load at the times when it occurs. Shifting discretionary load can only buy a limited amount of relief. That people are even talking about it is an indication the real problem is lack of capacity. This will get worse as more EVs come into service. Electrifying building heating and fleets of service urban vehicles (busses, delivery vans, and such) will shift the peak demand curve and most of that demand will be non-discretionary.

Having worked at the problem for well over a hundred years, we know how to build a reliable generation and distribution grid and provide electricity at a price people are willing to pay. Or at least we did until we allowed politicians to impersonate engineers.

Mickey Reno
September 14, 2021 6:01 am

The REAL accessory all EV owners will need is a big old diesel powered generator, with auto-starting and quiet operation mode, running in your back yard, with a short and very stout, anti-theft power cable running into your garage to charge your own damn vehicle without the participation of any collective, and no smart meter in the way, of course with a decent sized, hidden, anti-theft, anti siphon, underground fuel tank that can be filled by a discreet street visit from a fueling truck. Aren’t cars that run on free energy great?

(is this /sarc? Can a double dumb-ass even tell?)

Ulric Lyons
September 14, 2021 6:05 am

A bottle neck of daytime EV charging between 11am and 4pm when grid demand is high, is asking for trouble.

ResourceGuy
September 14, 2021 6:32 am

They will get an early test of shortages this winter amid NG market issues because they are building a tax incentive-based system that assumes continuous wind. Bring it on.

ResourceGuy
September 14, 2021 7:17 am

Not to worry, a little volatility is good for you…….

Blame the volatility on climate change!

Wholesale Electricity Prices – Energy Price Charts and Graphs (catalyst-commercial.co.uk)

Patrick Hrushowy
September 14, 2021 9:14 am

Has anyone ever doubted why Smart Meters were installed? No, it wasn’t get rid of meter readers, …it was to enable rationing of electricity. These guys have been thinking ahead for a long time.

ResourceGuy
September 14, 2021 9:25 am

This will form the backdoor reason for a 4-day workweek.

TonyG
September 14, 2021 9:29 am

“ministers fear blackouts on the National Grid.”

Haven’t we been told over and over right here (no names) that this simply isn’t going to happen, and that it’s not a problem?

n.n
September 14, 2021 9:38 am

Problem: intermittent/renewables, low-density energy reserves. Solution: trickle charge. It’s not the quality,but sustainability. Think of the climate!

ResourceGuy
September 14, 2021 9:40 am

Will the EV firetruck make it to the EV battery fire? I guess it will since those fires are allowed to burn themselves out anyway.

Neo
September 14, 2021 9:54 am

Eventually, we will get to toilets that will turn off to prevent droughts

Glen
Reply to  Neo
September 14, 2021 1:17 pm

You came up with a most evil and plausible scenario. Something the people at WUWT are good at.
Now stop giving them ideas.

walt
September 14, 2021 9:56 am

Imagine using EVs as emergency vehicles. Recharging and upkeep of EV fire trucks, ambulances, police cars, tow trucks, water rescue boats and wreck removers would be a nightmare.

george1st:)
September 14, 2021 10:51 am

New excuse for not going to work without taking a sicky .
My ev had a flat battery and I couldn’t recharge it .

old engineer
September 14, 2021 10:54 am

If the government can tell you when you can charge your EV, what about the rest of your electricity use. Can they tell you when to use your heat (in the UK, AC in the US). How about your washing machine, or even your lights.

It is indeed, as someone said above, the camel’s nose in the tent. The time to protest and sue and stop it is now. Five years from now it will be too late.

Neo
Reply to  old engineer
September 14, 2021 11:09 am

You already can’t buy some of the top gaming PCs in some states

Glen