Proterra EcoRide in Louisville, Kentucky Date 16 January 2015, 14:28:19 Source https://www.flickr.com/photos/dariuspinkston/16283149836/ Author Darius Pinkston

Report: Philadelphia’s Electric Bus Fleet in Complete Shambles

From NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW THAT

JULY 19, 2021

By Paul Homewood

image

More than two dozen electric Proterra buses first unveiled by the city of Philadelphia in 2016 are already out of operation, according to a WHYY investigation.

The entire fleet of Proterra buses was removed from the roads by SEPTA, the city’s transit authority, in February 2020 due to both structural and logistical problems—the weight of the powerful battery was cracking the vehicles’ chassis, and the battery life was insufficient for the city’s bus routes. The city raised the issues with Proterra, which failed to adequately address the city’s concerns.

The city paid $24 million for the 25 new Proterra buses, subsidized in part by a $2.6 million federal grant. Philadelphia defended the investment with claims that the electric buses would require less maintenance than standard combustion engine counterparts.

“There’s a lot less moving parts on an electric bus than there is on an internal combustion engine,” SEPTA chief Jeffrey Knueppel said in June 2019. Knueppel retired from the post just months later.

Proterra, which had Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm on its board of directors when Philadelphia pulled the buses off the streets last year, has been highlighted by the Biden administration as a business of the future. President Joe Biden visited the company’s factory in April and pledged in his initial infrastructure package proposal to include federal money for the electric vehicle market. The company has since been touted by top officials including White House climate adviser Gina McCarthy, who in a public meeting asked Proterra’s CEO how the federal government could spur demand for Proterra buses.

The cost of Proterra’s electric buses has gained attention in recent weeks. On a recent trip by Biden to La Crosse, Wis., it was revealed that two buses the city ordered from Proterra for $1.5 million in 2018 have still not been delivered. Over the past five days, Proterra’s stock price has fallen over 25 percent.

Philadelphia’s Proterra buses were first rolled out for the 2016 DNC convention with a promise that the city was “plugging into an emissions free future.”

Granholm was on Proterra’s board from 2017 until earlier this year. It was during that time that both SEPTA and Proterra learned that the heavier buses were cracking, according to the WHYY report.

Philadelphia placed the Proterra buses in areas where it thought they could succeed but quickly learned it was mistaken. Two pilot routes selected in South Philadelphia that were relatively short and flat compared with others in the city were too much for the electric buses.

“Even those routes needed buses to pull around 100 miles each day, while the Proterras were averaging just 30 to 50 miles per charge,” WHYY reporter Ryan Briggs wrote. “Officials also quickly realized there wasn’t room at the ends of either route for charging stations.”

Similar problems have been found in other cities that partnered with Proterra. Duluth, Minn., which, like Philadelphia, waitedthree years for its Proterra buses to be delivered, ultimately pulled its seven buses from service “because their braking systems were struggling on Duluth’s hills, and a software problem was causing them to roll back when accelerating uphill from a standstill,” according to the Duluth Monitor.

Proterra did not respond to a request for comment.

https://freebeacon.com/biden-administration/report-philadelphias-proterra-fleet-in-complete-shambles/

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griff
July 19, 2021 10:04 am

Proterra has sold over 1,000 electric buses.

It seems the rest are working just fine.

michael hart
Reply to  griff
July 19, 2021 10:12 am

So like windmills and solar farms, they probably work fine as long as the are placed in an environment chosen to be good for them. Ask them to to the real work and they break pretty quickly?

Scissor
Reply to  michael hart
July 19, 2021 12:29 pm

I like this experience concerning the buses in Duluth, “Proterra technicians traveled to Duluth to make the necessary repairs. To reduce the drain on the battery, they installed diesel-powered heating systems on the buses. This upgrade allowed the battery to be used strictly for locomotion—but also meant that the buses were no longer emissions-free.”

The fact that buses couldn’t stop and rolled downhill is concerning. Diesel buses in the first place cost less than about half the price, but more importantly work.

https://www.duluthmonitor.com/2020/09/19/electric-bus-pilot-project-reveals-problems/

G Mawer
Reply to  michael hart
July 19, 2021 12:33 pm

Everything works…..until it don’t………

Alan Robertson
Reply to  G Mawer
July 19, 2021 4:25 pm

There are electric “buses” of a sort, which work just fine, in my city.
They’re called “streetcars” and are powered by overhead electric lines.
Anyone with a lick of sense and lacking a political agenda, would quickly get past the idea of buses lugging around the freight load of batteries.

Mark D
Reply to  Alan Robertson
July 19, 2021 8:21 pm

As a wee lad in the early 1950’s I road all over Dayton, Ohio on the trolley cars (buses) with my mother. Later I rode them downtown to my job as an electronic tech during my teenage years. They worked fine then and they work fine today even through various entities over the decades try to kill them off.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Mark D
July 21, 2021 12:51 pm

GM was at the center of that effort – one of the reasons I detest that company. They (among others) were the ones that sentenced us all to the oxymoron known as “BUS SERVICE.”

Mark D
Reply to  AGW is Not Science
July 21, 2021 3:03 pm

Yes they wanted to sell diesel buses and put many an electric trolley system down.

Thomas
Reply to  Alan Robertson
July 20, 2021 6:33 am

Actually a good point….those have worked well in Germany and Europe for nearly 100 years…..enough with expensive battery technology.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Alan Robertson
July 21, 2021 12:49 pm

DING! DING! DING!

We have a winner! Electric vehicles of ANY variety will not be practical until they can draw their electricity from the roads or tracks or other pathways they travel on. Batteries don’t cut it, especially when ambient “operating conditions” are outside the ridiculous, exceedingly restrictive and optimistic “assumptions” used when calculating their supposed range.

I bet if somebody were to FOIA the manufacturer, they’d find the supposed “range” is calculated for an empty bus (driver only) on a flat, dry road with a temperature of 75 degrees F and no HVAC, wipers, lights or other accessories in use. LMFAO.

These useless pieces of shit were getting 30-50 miles per charge when they were supposed to get 100 miles per charge, and that was when using them on the “best” (read: least demanding) routes. Can you imagine the range on the most challenging routes? (“What do you mean the batteries are dead – you only made three stops!”)

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  AGW is Not Science
July 23, 2021 8:48 am

Saw later the “supposed” range was actually 300 miles, so it’s even more pathetic!

Reply to  Alan Robertson
July 24, 2021 12:51 pm

Vancouver BC has an extensive network of wires for trolley busses. Perhaps limited by busses impeding busses on very busy routes like Broadway. One solution is to add rapid transit to some of that street. (Vancouver BC and suburbs have an extensive rapid transit system, much of it on stilts, some underground especially where there are many businesses along the street – Cambie for example.)

KcTaz
Reply to  G Mawer
July 20, 2021 12:14 am

“Everything works…..until it don’t………”

Everything works on paper. It’s the real world where things get dicey.
Even Galloping Gertie worked on paper.

Tacoma Narrows Bridge Collapse “Gallopin’ Gertie” https://youtu.be/j-zczJXSxnw via @YouTube

John Endicott
Reply to  KcTaz
July 20, 2021 8:56 am

“In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.” 

Thomas
Reply to  G Mawer
July 20, 2021 6:31 am

Good point….everything works fine if its the taxpayers that are left with the bill.

bill Johnston
Reply to  michael hart
July 19, 2021 1:24 pm

Wind and solar may be fine for specific, isolated circumstances. But anything more. is pouring money down a rat hole.

Larry in Texas
Reply to  michael hart
July 19, 2021 2:30 pm

Except in Philadelphia, the powers that be did exactly that – and the buses STILL were not up to the task.

By the way, just ignore Griff. All he is good for is comic relief.

KcTaz
Reply to  michael hart
July 20, 2021 12:07 am

Michael, from this article, it doesn’t sound like it.

“…Philadelphia placed the Proterra buses in areas where it thought they could succeed but quickly learned it was mistaken. Two pilot routes selected in South Philadelphia that were relatively short and flat compared with others in the city were too much for the electric buses.”

f they won’t work on short and flat routes, they won’t work anywhere, it seems to me.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  michael hart
July 21, 2021 12:53 pm

What you’re leaving out there is that the “environment chosen to be good for them” only exists in San Diego, CA – and only if San Diego is flat as a billiard table, and the buses don’t have to run after dark. Otherwise, not so much.

rbabcock
Reply to  griff
July 19, 2021 10:29 am

You don’t know if they are working “just fine”. Obviously Philadelphia’s aren’t.

Reply to  rbabcock
July 19, 2021 10:58 am

Never underestimate griff’s crystal ball. It is very active.

MarkW
Reply to  Curious George
July 19, 2021 11:56 am

Perhaps even radioactive.

TennDon
Reply to  MarkW
July 19, 2021 1:20 pm

Maybe even retroactively proactive. Indeed, Wonders to Behold!

Bemused Bill
Reply to  rbabcock
July 19, 2021 5:10 pm

Griff didn’t know until he read this article that these busses were not working at all…..and assumes all the other busses still are…cause he is a bit strange and a loony left propagandist.
The rest of us would prefer to see evidence of that than take Griffy’s dubious word for it.

Shoki Kaneda
Reply to  griff
July 19, 2021 10:30 am

Do you have any data to support that statement or are you just assuming because you don’t know?

Editor
Reply to  griff
July 19, 2021 10:36 am

Why did you ignore this statement in the article?

More than two dozen electric Proterra buses first unveiled by the city of Philadelphia in 2016 are already out of operation, according to a WHYY investigation.



The entire fleet of Proterra buses was removed from the roads by SEPTA, the city’s transit authority, in February 2020 due to both structural and logistical problems—the weight of the powerful battery was cracking the vehicles’ chassis, and the battery life was insufficient for the city’s bus routes. The city raised the issues with Proterra, which failed to adequately address the city’s concerns.

AWG
Reply to  Sunsettommy
July 19, 2021 10:42 am

Yeah, but none of those thousand other buses don’t have heavy batteries, fragile chassis or inadequate batter life. Philadelphia just happened to get the only lemons out of the whole supply.

Willem Post
Reply to  AWG
July 19, 2021 10:56 am

AWG,
That is called Dem/Prog statistical sampling.
They selected the buses, based on a lack of judgment, and what would yield them the most GW brownie points
They got what they deserved

Biden’s deficit-financed “INFRASTRUCTURES” bill, would multiply idiocy by factors of ten.

A simple analysis by an energy systems engineer would immediately show, the imagined, fairly tale project was doomed to fail.

Starry-eyed Dem/Progs in Boston had the same results with electric school buses.

Reply to  Willem Post
July 19, 2021 11:50 am

Doesn’t take an engineer, @Willem. I just took a look at the Route 8 here in Tucson (just about completely flat). It does a ~20 mile round trip, 28 times a day. That’s 14 buses, just to cover this one route (two round trips per bus, before they go in for charging the rest of the day – maybe the first two or three can use solar, the rest will have to use the grid). Not counting cloudy days, or having a spare or two when one breaks down. I’m also wondering if that 30-50 mile range is with the A/C running? A bus that loses its A/C in the summer here HAS to be taken out of service for repair.

willem post
Reply to  Writing Observer
July 19, 2021 12:09 pm

Writing Observer,

Thank you,

Plenty of anecdotal evidence exists regarding electric buses being gross failures.

But those stories are “after the fact”

An energy systems engineer would have blown that out of the water “before the fact”.

I made an electric school bus analysis, sent it to at least 50 people in the government, and they went ahead with electric school buses anyway, which, led to failure, even worse than I expected, not to MY surprise.

The problem is the starry-eyed RE idiots are in charge.

Willem Post
Reply to  willem post
July 19, 2021 2:09 pm

And if a newly elected politician comes to a meeting
(he ran on draining the swamp), he is immediately confronted by the old guard of entrenched bureaucrats, who are eager to continue BAU.

There ain’t no way to drain the swamp, so the politician pulls in his horns and licks his ego wounds

Derg
Reply to  Willem Post
July 19, 2021 3:02 pm

No kidding, when Trump ran on draining the swamp the 3 letter agencies started spying and needed Russia colluuuusion to continue spying.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Derg
July 20, 2021 4:45 am

Yeah, and then 50 former intelligence officers, including five former CIA directors, from both political parties, came out and tried to defend Joe Biden by claiming Hunter’s laptop was Russian disinformation.

So, we now know that all these so-called intelligence experts were either lying or completely misinformed since it is a certainty that the laptop is Hunter Biden’s laptop, and the FBI has been in possession of it since at least 2019. No prosecutions yet, FBI? How convenient for the Biden’s.

That’s the Swamp we are contending with: Nearly all our officials and bureaucrats, some from our own party, are lying to the American people in order to enhance the Democrat Party and tear down the Republican Party.

Our Elites/Swamp Critters want one-party rule in the United States.

Be careful about who you put your trust in because they may actually be a Swamp Critter disguised as a normal human being. Bill Barr, anyone?

Geoff Sherrington
Reply to  willem post
July 19, 2021 4:49 pm

Political processes:
A politician was visiting a remote little rural town in Australia and asked the locals what the government could do for them.
“We have two big needs,” said the townspeople.
 “First, we have a hospital but no doctor.”
 The politician whipped out his iPhone, spoke for a while and then said, “I have sorted that out. A doctor will arrive here tomorrow. What is your other need?”
 The townspeople replied, “We have no mobile phone reception in our town.” Geoff S

KcTaz
Reply to  Geoff Sherrington
July 20, 2021 12:22 am

william, that is funny!

AndyHce
Reply to  Writing Observer
July 19, 2021 9:19 pm

I’ve ridden buses. Some probably have comfortable air conditioning but many just aren’t quite as hot as outside — definitely not “comfortable”.

Reply to  AndyHce
July 24, 2021 12:56 pm

Depends on climate. In the mid-wet coast of North America few would have air conditioning traditionally. But AZ is hot – I left there one morning in August with temperature at 112F headed to 120F. At least it was dry heat, whereas NYV is humid, icky.

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  Writing Observer
July 20, 2021 8:17 pm

Cloudy days?? In Tucson??

Craig from Oz
Reply to  Writing Observer
July 20, 2021 8:30 pm

Our local council made an effort to get some Green Cred and purchased with great fan fair a big electric bus for use in the free community circle route.

It was rubbish.

It was an easy guess that if the bus was late then it was eventually going to be the green bus. The diesels also used on the same service never had the same problem.

The bus was also amusing to watch late in the day when trying to go up a hill. The aircon would automatically switch on and off because there simply wasn’t enough juice in the tank.

It then disappeared for a couple of years. It was sheepishly and quietly mentioned that this was because they had to replace the battery and no one in Australia could do it.

Then it came out again and much the same problems. It still exists, I think, but really wish they would just push it into a pit and throw rocks at it.

AndyHce
Reply to  Willem Post
July 19, 2021 9:17 pm

They got what they deserved? The people who had to pay for them or the thugs that purchased them?

MarkW
Reply to  AWG
July 19, 2021 3:23 pm

Maybe all of their busses were built on Mondays.

willem post
Reply to  MarkW
July 20, 2021 7:26 am

And on TGIF Fridays

meab
Reply to  Sunsettommy
July 19, 2021 1:01 pm

Griffter also ignored that the City of Duluth also pulled these buses out of service. If Griffter had done two minutes of research he would have found a HILARIOUS story on the Duluth buses. Of course, the idiot didn’t do that – he apparently doesn’t mind that he gets caught lying.

From the story “Technicians also determined that Duluth’s cold weather was causing the bus heaters to drain the batteries too rapidly, preventing them from completing a full shift.

Proterra technicians traveled to Duluth to make the necessary repairs. To reduce the drain on the battery, they installed diesel-powered heating systems on the buses. This upgrade allowed the battery to be used strictly for locomotion—but also meant that the buses were no longer emissions-free.”

Tom Abbott
Reply to  meab
July 20, 2021 4:50 am

“he apparently doesn’t mind that he gets caught lying.”

That seems to be the case.

MarkW
Reply to  Tom Abbott
July 20, 2021 9:35 am

self moderated

Last edited 2 months ago by MarkW
John Endicott
Reply to  meab
July 20, 2021 9:03 am

he apparently doesn’t mind that he gets caught lying.”

It’s SOP for him. His funniest lies are when he posts links that don’t support his claims while claiming they do.

Joe
Reply to  Sunsettommy
July 19, 2021 2:56 pm

Oh the irony, the name of the investigating body is “WHYY”

Joe

Reply to  Joe
July 19, 2021 6:36 pm

WHYY are the call letters for the local radio news station.

Earl Hackett
Reply to  ATheoK
July 21, 2021 7:26 am

Amazing, but WHYY is a PBS station.

c1ue
Reply to  griff
July 19, 2021 10:45 am

Given the long wait times documented in the article – maybe it is just that very few of these $1M+ buses are actually in operation because very few have actually been delivered.

c1ue
Reply to  c1ue
July 19, 2021 10:48 am

I was curious what “regular” buses cost. According to this article: https://www.liveabout.com/bus-cost-to-purchase-and-operate-2798845, a diesel bus costs around $550K.
So if we’re talking about $1M per bus – how many years of diesel “savings” does it take to make up for the $450K extra cost.
Even at $4/gallon for diesel and say, 10 mpg, each electric bus would have to be driven 1.1M miles to make up for the difference.
I am fairly sure there are no 1M mile odometer buses being used in public transit?

Last edited 2 months ago by c1ue
Sparko
Reply to  c1ue
July 19, 2021 11:35 am

approx 250 miles a day = 1750 miles a week. 15 years years will get you to a million.

Kevin
Reply to  Sparko
July 19, 2021 11:54 am

But if you have to replace an electric bus every 5 years or sooner, you lose money on each one but make up for it on volume.

Don Perry
Reply to  Sparko
July 19, 2021 11:58 am

That’s assuming you take zero time off for maintenance during that 15 years. Your calculation assumes 7 days a week 52 weeks a year, uninterrupted for 15 years. Good luck with that, pal.

pHil R
Reply to  Don Perry
July 19, 2021 12:16 pm

Also, as noted by Writing Observer above, because of maintenance, charging, etc., it takes multiple buses for a single route. Put that in Sparko’s pipe and smoke it.

Last edited 2 months ago by pHil R
Bemused Bill
Reply to  Don Perry
July 19, 2021 5:30 pm

No-one is mentioning the cost of replacement batteries or infrastructure…which is because the busses don’t last as long as the batteries…so no need to worry about that, excellent. Planned obsolescence minus any kind of realistic plan. “Their” plan is to scream like a deranged child until they get what they are told they want…and then blame Trump when it doesn’t work…..again.
Griff the nutbag doesn’t seem to get it at all, what is the story with this bizarre character? Educated, but mental? Or something more sinister?
Re this buss fiasco, who here could bring themselves to sign such a deal? Even if I had a gun against my head I would be disgusted with myself forever more…sick sad world.

KcTaz
Reply to  Bemused Bill
July 20, 2021 12:27 am

“Griff the nutbag doesn’t seem to get it at all, what is the story with this bizarre character?”

The bright spot with griff is that we can hope some AGW outfit like Carbon Brief is paying him to troll on here. It’s quite lovely to think any of them have put even one dime into paying him to post his nonsense.

MarkW
Reply to  Don Perry
July 19, 2021 7:33 pm

The article indicates that Philly has been getting 30 to 50 miles per charge. Given 4 to 8 hours to recharge the batteries, it’s simply not possible to get 250 miles per day.

Mike Lowe
Reply to  Sparko
July 19, 2021 12:53 pm

……barring obsolescence!

c1ue
Reply to  Sparko
July 19, 2021 1:20 pm

Thank you for the mathematical exercise – but the question was whether there actually are buses with 1M+ miles on the odometer?
This is a question about fact, not about speculation.
A quick search turned this up: https://www.liveabout.com/buses-and-other-transit-lifetime-2798844#:~:text=The%20answer%20depends%20on%20what%20kind%20of%20bus,useful%20life%20of%2012%20years%20and%20250%2C000%20miles.

The typical city transit system expects a bus to last 12 years and drive 250,000 miles.

So if we have an extra $550K cost vs. diesel – the extra capital cost comes out to $2.20 per mile.

Seems excessive to me.

Last edited 2 months ago by c1ue
Reply to  c1ue
July 19, 2021 6:50 pm

Your original question asked “If” any buses had driven over 1,000,000 miles.

Now you return and use “averages” to assist your logical fallacy red herring.

  • “Typical”
  • “last 2 years”
  • “Drive 250,000 miles”.

All of which ignores that as long as buses meet safety regulations and can be repaired, they are kept in service virtually everywhere.

Then we also need to address the specious “miles” mark.
City buses drive slowly and repeatedly over measured bus routes.
All day and often 24 hours per day.

The key metric for the life of a bus is measured in ‘Hours’ not miles.

c1ue
Reply to  ATheoK
July 19, 2021 11:28 pm

Sorry, but everything you write is idiotic.
The entire point of the exercise was to understand what the cost tradeoff is between electric vs. diesel.
The price difference is $450K vs. $1M+; the fuel difference is therefore the price difference divided by estimate fuel cost and mpg.
Nobody uses “hours” to estimate anything to do with transportation – not the IRS, not trucking fees, etc.
Then, of course, I actually found data which public transit authorities estimate the lifetime usage and value of a bus is.
Net net: the electric buses are extremely expensive compared to diesel. The supposed freedom from diesel cost is irrelevant if the capital cost is so enormous.

Reply to  c1ue
July 21, 2021 4:11 pm

“Nobody uses “hours” to estimate anything to do with transportation – not the IRS, not trucking fees, etc”

In spite of your personal obsession and apparently idiotic ignorance, you are wrong.
Finding vehicle mileage because you searched for miles doesn’t change the proper metric.

  • Commercial trucks, buses and Military vehicles all use ‘Hours’, not miles.
  • Maintenance is based on “Hours”, not miles.
  • Driver regulations are based upon “Hours” driving, not on ‘miles’.
  • Vehicle Lifecycles are based upon “Hours”, not ‘miles.
  • Look up classified advertisements and the key metric for commercial vehicles will be “Hours”.

For vehicles with engines that run incessantly, the wear factor on both vehicles and drivers is ‘Hours’. Miles becomes a trivial consideration.

Look up regulations controlling operator/drivers and the regulations are based on hours of driving, hours of operation, not how many miles driven.

e.g. a bus may run a route that covers minimal miles but operates many hours.

The two vehicles traveled a total of 31,900 miles, consumed 5,070 gallons of fuel during 2,878 hours of operation and carried an estimated 42,000 passengers.”

According to these stats, over six months of ‘testing’, these hybrid buses got 6.3 miles per gallon.
Buses allegedly managed 11 miles for every “Hour” of operation.

As claimed, these test buses drove 175 miles each day of the test, driven during 16 hours of operation.

16 hours are two shifts of 8 hours or more likely 4 shifts of 4 hours each. Even though each driver only drove 11 miles per hour.

Are the drivers tracked by “miles” per day or per hour? No, they are tracked by hours driving.

Miles driven is a useless metric for determining vehicle wear! Hours are the metric governing operation!

Last edited 2 months ago by ATheoK
Reply to  ATheoK
July 24, 2021 2:36 pm

i think both of you are broad-brushing.

First I will note that drives are not vehicles.

Engines that run regardless of whether or not the vehicle is moving have wear due to time spent running – those in cold temperatures for example. That time may be less stressful than running under load. So it needs to be factored. Load varies – hilly terrain pushes engines harder.

Time spent moving also wears suspension and tires.

In an earlier post I point to factors other than wear and tear motivating replacement. Here I add pollution reduction – particulate emissions from diesels for example. And more efficient engine designs.

Here I will add that in poor societies with cheap labour busses are probably kept in service for a very long time.

Reply to  Keith Sketchley
July 24, 2021 2:37 pm

My points fall under the proper method of knowledge – ‘integration’ – considering all factors, then ideally weighting each.

John Endicott
Reply to  ATheoK
July 20, 2021 9:10 am

City buses drive slowly and repeatedly over measured bus routes.
All day and often 24 hours per day.”

Well, you might get close to 24 hours per day out of a fossil fuel powered bus that only takes mere minutes a day to refuel. You are definitely not going to be anywhere close to 24 hours a day for an electric bus that requires *hours* of recharging time each day (and that’s even assuming you only ever “fast charge” them, which kills the battery life).

Reply to  John Endicott
July 21, 2021 4:15 pm

Agreed!

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  c1ue
July 21, 2021 1:10 pm

Not only is it excessive, but the battery powered buses don’t do the job. Also see the comment above about needing multiple buses to cover the shortest and flattest of routes due to the pathetic “range,” which would multiply (by many) the number of worse-than-useless battery powered paper weights needed to cover the same routes.

I mean, “bus service” (oxymoron if there ever was one) is bad enough with buses that actually function; riding an “electric” (as in “battery powered”) bus seems like a step below walking home.

Reply to  c1ue
July 24, 2021 1:00 pm

I’m surprised at only 250,000 miles, but I note that busses may be replaced earlier than they have to be to get desirable features like low entry (kneeling suspension and ramps that slide out), and yes air conditioning to entire more people to use the system.

MarkW
Reply to  Sparko
July 19, 2021 7:32 pm

Bus services are reduced dramatically on weekends and holidays.

JamesD
Reply to  Sparko
July 20, 2021 6:16 am

Subtract out the power bill. And the batteries will be shot before 15 years.

Thomas Edwardson
Reply to  Sparko
July 20, 2021 8:37 pm

Sparko’s math is reasonably close. In a previous life, the wife used to work for PACE Suburban Bus in Chicagoland. PACE expected to get 1 million miles out of each bus chassis, albeit with one or two engine/transmission overhauls along the way, upholstery changes, etc. Admittedly, the suburban routes tend to be longer mileage than city routes.

Down in St Louis, they are managing to get 1 million miles out of their fleet units on the original engine ! …

https://www.metrostlouis.org/nextstop/metro-maintenance-program-produces-a-million-mile-bus/

That St Louis bus was put into service in 2001 and passed 1 million miles in 2017.

PACE frequently gets 1 or 2 million miles out of their bus drivers, as I sat through several award ceremonies for drivers reaching that mark. Several of those drivers had driven 1 million miles without an accident, which is remarkable considering Chicago winter weather.

However, the Federal Transit Administration publishes a Guide for Grants for life-cycling buses at 12 years / 500,000 miles (general bus) or 10 years / 350 miles (public transit) before the local transportation authority can apply for federal grant money to replace the asset, so your mileage may vary considerably.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Thomas Edwardson
July 21, 2021 1:15 pm

When you spend most of the time standing still and averaging about 12mph (on the faster routes), not getting into an accident shouldn’t be all that difficult…

I’m not much of a fan of buses, can you tell? 😀

Randy Stubbings
Reply to  c1ue
July 19, 2021 11:42 am

What you lose in lifetime, cost, and efficiency compared to diesel buses, you get back in virtue points.

Fraizer
Reply to  Randy Stubbings
July 19, 2021 12:36 pm

What you lose in lifetime, cost, and efficiency compared to diesel buses, you get back <s>in virtue points</s> under the table in a brown paper bag.

Last edited 2 months ago by Fraizer
bill Johnston
Reply to  Randy Stubbings
July 19, 2021 1:29 pm

I am sure the tax payers will love to have that show up in their pockets. Spend it wherever you like.

Graemethecat
Reply to  Randy Stubbings
July 23, 2021 5:52 am

Virtue-signalling is the whole point of Big Green.

hiskorr
Reply to  c1ue
July 19, 2021 12:46 pm

And you’re getting the electricity free?

yara
Reply to  hiskorr
July 19, 2021 3:38 pm

w/no emissions

Richard Page
Reply to  griff
July 19, 2021 10:46 am

Misleading data again Griffy? Proterra have sold over 1,000 buses to customers around the USA but have delivered only about 375 of them. That means a significantly larger proportion of them are failing.
If you act like a mentally challenged child in this way, then people will treat you as such – you reap what you sow Griff.

MarkW
Reply to  Richard Page
July 19, 2021 11:59 am

How many of those delivered are as old as the Philadelphia busses?

Rich Davis
Reply to  MarkW
July 19, 2021 2:07 pm

💋 💋 busses
🚌 🚌 buses

🧐🧐 pedants

😜

H.R.
Reply to  Rich Davis
July 19, 2021 3:49 pm

Thank you, Rich. Deftly done; a light touch.

It’s been driving me crazy (Is this my the buss stop?) the whole of the comment thread.

Richard Page
Reply to  Richard Page
July 20, 2021 4:58 am

Actually, I should like to apologise for my data problem. The data I was using is out of date; as of 2021 the number of buses delivered has increased to just over 400. It was 375 in 2017, 390 in 2019 and the only data I have found for this year indicates it is “just over 400”. So apologies all round for that. I’ve not been able to find detailed data on individual contracts so I can’t tell when deliveries were made, nor which model of bus was delivered.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Richard Page
July 21, 2021 1:17 pm

Just look for the headlines about “new buses not meeting expectations,” and you should find them quickly. 😀

H.R.
Reply to  griff
July 19, 2021 10:48 am

griff – Over 1,000 buses sold. How many have been delivered?

La Crosse, WI is still waiting for the two buses they ordered in 2018. Isn’t it a bit premature to declare any as-yet-to-be-delivered bus a success when they haven’t yet been driven the first mile?

 I honestly don’t know how many of those that were sold have been delivered, and of those delivered, how many are still in service.

Derg
Reply to  H.R.
July 19, 2021 10:52 am

It is sad to read that La Crosse is dumb enough to waste taxpayers money 😞

BobM
Reply to  Derg
July 19, 2021 1:42 pm

La Crosse is in Wisconsin. nuff said, like Minnesota. Cold not only kills, it seems to slow brain cells significantly.

jorgekafkazar
Reply to  BobM
July 19, 2021 2:25 pm

In Denver, I thought it was the altitude. Hypoxia, y’know?

Rich Davis
Reply to  H.R.
July 19, 2021 2:08 pm

There you have it griff was right neither of those buses have broken down yet!

H.R.
Reply to  Rich Davis
July 19, 2021 2:57 pm

🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣

So griff is on a hot streak of correctitudiness… until they deliver those 2 buses [♫♪ sad trombone ♫♪].

Larry in Texas
Reply to  H.R.
July 19, 2021 2:35 pm

If La Crosse paid for those buses before they were delivered, that, in my (legal) opinion, is a criminal misappropriation of public funds.

John Endicott
Reply to  H.R.
July 20, 2021 9:13 am

 I honestly don’t know how many of those that were sold have been delivered, and of those delivered, how many are still in service.”

That’s OK H.R., neither does griff. At least you are honest about it, griff just lies through his teeth.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  H.R.
July 21, 2021 1:20 pm

Nice way to pad their statistics – the 600 they haven’t delivered have never experienced a failure! LMAO!

Right-Handed Shark
Reply to  griff
July 19, 2021 11:06 am

The other 976 are probably static exhibits in transport museums around the world.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Right-Handed Shark
July 21, 2021 1:22 pm

There’s something battery powered buses can excel at – youngest piece of mass transit equipment in a museum! LMAO!

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  AGW is Not Science
July 23, 2021 8:53 am

Forgot to note that they will need to remove the battery packs from the museum pieces to remove the fire hazard.

Mike Bryant
Reply to  griff
July 19, 2021 11:13 am

O wonder!
How many goodly creatures are there here!
How beauteous mankind is! O brave new world
That has such people in’t!

michel
Reply to  griff
July 19, 2021 11:16 am

1) There is no global heating and no climate emergency

2) Even if there were such a thing, trying to move everyone to battery powered transport will not have any effect on it.

The committed need to accept that if they really do believe in the global heating emergency, start advocating the kinds of changes to living and working which that requires. One of the lesser changes would be to transport.

It would not be replacing ICE vehicles with battery powered. On the contrary, it would be abolishing cars and replacing them with public transport, light rail, trolley buses, trams. They can all be electrically powered and there’s a long history of them working just fine. And they don’t need any lithium.

And as soon as you accept that, you realize that the collateral changes to how we live and work would be immense. So figure them out, start advocating them too. Maybe people will buy in. Though there is little or no sign of that yet, and the campaign has been going 30+ years.

And start demonstrating outside the Chinese embassy, till they get on board also.

Mike Lowe
Reply to  michel
July 19, 2021 12:59 pm

Stop that! The idealistic politicians might get some more nutty ideas to try out on the guinea pigs!

KcTaz
Reply to  michel
July 20, 2021 12:38 am

As a practical matter, in big city areas, especially, in Dem run states, housing sells for a tremendous premium and the worker bees have to live far out of the city. I doubt electric buses are going to be making it to and from distant locations at the speed required to match a diesal bus speeds. For people spending hours a day on buses anyways, I doubt they are going to want to add to that time as, I suspect they would, to ride and electric bus. Just a thought.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  KcTaz
July 21, 2021 1:24 pm

I doubt electric buses are going to be making it to and from distant locations at the speed required to match a diesel bus speeds.

Fixed it for you.

Reply to  griff
July 19, 2021 11:37 am

Sold. Delivered? In service? An imaginary bus, or a yard queen is certainly “working just fine.”

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Writing Observer
July 21, 2021 1:25 pm

Yup – the 600 they didn’t delver are working just great! 😀

The rest, well….

saveenergy
Reply to  griff
July 19, 2021 11:47 am

“It seems the rest are working just fine.”

In the same way as stopped clocks always show the correct time twice a day !

Electric buses / trams are definitely the way forward for urban transport … they just need connecting to a reliable electricity supply via overhead cables (as was done successfully in the 20th century).

The history of electric road transport started in the 1830s & ever since then, batteries have always been the Achilles Heel.

Last edited 2 months ago by saveenergy
Jim Whelan
Reply to  saveenergy
July 19, 2021 12:15 pm

Electric buses / trams are definitely the way forward for urban transport … they just need connecting to a reliable electricity supply via overhead cables (as was done successfully in the 20th century).

But why did they go away in the 20th century if they were so “successful”? The fact is that they weren’t competitive with the private automobile and that the need for overhead wires and rails severely limited where service could be supplied. They are “the way forward” only if government regulation forces it in defiance of their economic disadvantage.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Jim Whelan
July 21, 2021 1:29 pm

An (actual) conspiracy. Read “Getting There: The Epic Struggle Between Road and Rail in the American Century.”
Trolley and Interurban railway companies, for example, were bought up and scrapped, so (cough) “others” could sell buses to the cities instead.

MarkW
Reply to  griff
July 19, 2021 11:56 am

In griff’s world, if the Guardian doesn’t cover something, it didn’t happen.

Vuk
Reply to  griff
July 19, 2021 12:23 pm

Hi Griffo, how are you doing in the UK’s ‘unprecedented’ heatwave all of 31C (87F)

In Germany electric buses are hot property:
Hanover: Million damage in a fire in the depot for electric buses
https://newsrnd.com/life/2021-06-06-hanover–million-damage-in-a-fire-in-the-depot-for-electric-buses.Bke5b3xqcO.html
Major fire in Düsseldorf: 40 buses destroyed
https://www.tellerreport.com/news/2021-04-01-major-fire-in-düsseldorf–40-buses-destroyed.SyWG57JXHO.html
No indication if the buses were electric or diesel.

Last edited 2 months ago by Vuk
Scissor
Reply to  Vuk
July 19, 2021 5:03 pm

Nice warranty, 100,000 km or until bus goes up in flames, whichever happens first.

MarkW
Reply to  Scissor
July 19, 2021 7:38 pm

I’ve always wondered about the usefulness of these “lifetime” warranties
Does this mean that the warranty only lasts until the object breaks?

Last edited 2 months ago by MarkW
John Endicott
Reply to  MarkW
July 20, 2021 9:16 am

Or until the object send you to your grave.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Scissor
July 21, 2021 2:00 pm

Probably more clever than that. “Bumper to bumper warranty – 100,000 km”

Exclusions – Fire, Flood, Overcharging Batteries, Undercharging Batteries, Operation in Rain or Snow, Operation in Dark Conditions… 😀

Climate believer
Reply to  Vuk
July 20, 2021 2:12 am

In France we like to do things differently….

Amiens dacia bus.jpg
commieBob
Reply to  griff
July 19, 2021 12:44 pm

On what evidence are you basing that assertion?

KcTaz
Reply to  commieBob
July 20, 2021 12:41 am

Griff does evidence? Who knew?

Tom Abbott
Reply to  KcTaz
July 20, 2021 5:05 am

No, Griff does wishful thinking.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  commieBob
July 23, 2021 8:56 am

Griff is allergic to evidence-based anything.

Gordon A. Dressler
Reply to  griff
July 19, 2021 1:13 pm

Yeah, and Solyndra solar cells were also seemed to be working just fine until . . .

But wait, griff, no need for you to respond with “But that was a different time, a different company, and a different technology” . . . for clearly, we all know that something like that could NEVER happen again, right?

walt
Reply to  griff
July 19, 2021 1:49 pm

Sales mean the buses were sold. That does not mean the customers have functioning bus service.

Rich Davis
Reply to  griff
July 19, 2021 1:57 pm

Everyone who ever lived on earth, but didn’t have an obituary printed in the newspaper apparently is still alive. Same griffian logic.

In which time period would you prefer to live your life?
[__] Benign low CO2 1675-1750
[__] “Dangerous” CO2 1950-2025

Andrew Wilkins
Reply to  griff
July 19, 2021 3:02 pm

It has orders for 1000.
It has delivered nowhere near that number.
Try harder Griff.

Last edited 2 months ago by Andrew Wilkins
Editor
Reply to  griff
July 19, 2021 3:21 pm

“Proterra buses were also taken out of service in Duluth, Minnesota, after officials realized that hilly routes and heaters were draining batteries too quickly. A battery fleet from Chinese manufacturer BYD was taken out of service in Indianapolis for upgrades due to range issues, while officials in Albuquerque, New Mexico, returned 15 BYD buses for similar reasons. The CEO of a major battery-powered truck start-up, Nikola — the related sector Proterra is now hoping to expand into — resigned after a report accused him of lying about the technical capabilities of long range vehicles.” – https://whyy.org/articles/septas-cracking-battery-buses-raise-questions-about-the-future-of-electric-transit/

“Problem with Proterra electric buses… they’re LEMONS!
It was a source of pride when the city of Seneca announced plans to become the first U.S. city to operate an all-electric bus fleet.
“We will eliminate our diesel fuel costs and eliminate our carbon footprint,” city administrator Greg Dietterick said during a November 2011 news conference.
But more than two years later, the city’s electric bus service has yet to get off the ground. Officials say there have been issues with the four Proterra buses they purchased since the buses were delivered in December.” – http://www.subchat.com/buschat/read.asp?Id=291326

Ken
Reply to  griff
July 19, 2021 3:52 pm

Nothing ‘green’ ever works!
By “works” we mean functioning to the same performance standards as existing, established technology.

Editor
Reply to  Ken
July 19, 2021 4:39 pm

You’re quite right, Ken, but you left out the reason: Nothing ‘green’ can ever work, because if anything does work then the greens oppose it.

John
Reply to  griff
July 19, 2021 5:04 pm

really!

John in Oz
Reply to  griff
July 19, 2021 6:38 pm

Does ‘the rest’ include the Duluth experience?

Two months after their unveiling, all seven buses were pulled from service, because their braking systems were struggling on Duluth’s hills, and a software problem was causing them to roll back when accelerating uphill from a standstill. Technicians also determined that Duluth’s cold weather was causing the bus heaters to drain the batteries too rapidly, preventing them from completing a full shift.

Proterra technicians traveled to Duluth to make the necessary repairs. To reduce the drain on the battery, they installed diesel-powered heating systems on the buses. This upgrade allowed the battery to be used strictly for locomotion—but also meant that the buses were no longer emissions-free.

https://www.duluthmonitor.com/2020/09/19/electric-bus-pilot-project-reveals-problems/

There is also this comment (“We wanted to design a bus around the system and not a system around a particular bus,”) which seems to be forgotten in the push for everything electric.

Last edited 2 months ago by John in Oz
tommyboy
Reply to  griff
July 19, 2021 7:18 pm

Proterra stock is down over 25% despite Griff saying the busses are working just fine. This makes Proterra a fantastic buy opportunity. I’m going to be rich!
It’s a sure thing our friend Griff is never wrong!
/sarc

Climate believer
Reply to  tommyboy
July 20, 2021 2:10 am

Investors not impressed at all…

download.png
Tom Abbott
Reply to  Climate believer
July 20, 2021 5:09 am

Ouch!

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Climate believer
July 21, 2021 2:04 pm

I’m sure the “investors” will soon be called “taxpayers,” via the “vehicle” (pardon the pun) of “bankruptcy.”

KcTaz
Reply to  griff
July 20, 2021 12:05 am

Do you not read the articles before you comment, griff?

Similar problems have been found in other cities that partnered with Proterra. Duluth, Minn., which, like Philadelphia, waitedthree years for its Proterra buses to be delivered, ultimately pulled its seven buses from service “because their braking systems were struggling on Duluth’s hills, and a software problem was causing them to roll back when accelerating uphill from a standstill,” according to the Duluth Monitor.

Jeff Alberts
Reply to  KcTaz
July 20, 2021 8:26 pm

No, he/she/it (oh heck, let’s just call it Sheeit) only types in the script Sheeit is given.

Greg
Reply to  griff
July 20, 2021 1:42 am

“are working just fine” – Proof ? Or did you just pull that out of you butt?

MarkW
Reply to  Greg
July 20, 2021 9:42 am

No wonder his comments stink to high heaven.

Bill Toland
Reply to  griff
July 20, 2021 2:58 am

Griff, congratulations on your negative score (-126 at posting). I think that this is a new record for you or anybody else. Given your recent track record on the quality of your posts, I doubt that it will stand for long.

observa
Reply to  griff
July 20, 2021 5:24 am

They only did 2 months before being pulled out of service for the first time-
Electric bus pilot project reveals problems – Duluth Monitor

Read between the lines with Sir Humfrey Pumphrey griff-

“We’re happy to be doing this demonstration project and helping forward the technology aspect of electrics in an environment like this,” Pumphrey said noncommittally. “My counsel would be that we need to continue to see how reliable and effective they are.”

Thomas
Reply to  griff
July 20, 2021 6:30 am

And you got this information where? Sounds like typical bs from an enviro.

John Endicott
Reply to  griff
July 20, 2021 9:26 am

Sold not equal in operation let alone just fine. Considering they haven’t even delivered half that number and Philly isn’t the only city experiencing problems with them, you claims of the rest “working just fine” is a laugh. No wonder you’ve reached triple digit negative on that posting and haven’t been back to reply to any of the numerous posts in response to your nonsense.

Peter Gill
Reply to  griff
July 20, 2021 3:41 pm

Sure, a 30% stock price fall is “just fine”

Carlton Yee
Reply to  griff
July 23, 2021 1:28 pm

Nope, not in CA. This Co. is Xiden’s Solyndra.

Editor
July 19, 2021 10:05 am

The post opens with, ” More than two dozen electric Proterra buses first unveiled by the city of Philadelphia in 2016 are already out of operation, according to a WHYY investigation.”

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdOPBP9vuZA&w=560&h=315%5D

Regards,
Bob

July 19, 2021 10:09 am

What is funny is that we used to have electric busses, but got rid of those because of the unsightly cables all over roadways.

Timo, not that one
Reply to  Jeff in Calgary
July 19, 2021 10:35 am

We had them in Toronto too. They were far more efficient than the battery ones are because they were much lighter, not needing to haul around a gigantic battery. Cleaner for the environment too, for the same reason, and they never ran out of charge.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  establ
July 21, 2021 3:05 pm

If they built an intelligent and interconnected network of streetcars, they would do just fine. Inevitably, the bureaucrats build some disconnected, limited line and insist on charging a separate, exclusive fare for it (vs. buses, subways/commuter trains with free transfers), then wonder why nobody rides it.

Pamela Matlack-Klein
Reply to  Jeff in Calgary
July 19, 2021 11:47 am

Funny, I was thinking of those trolleys when I first learned of the electric bus debacle in Philly. They were very efficient but I can remember difficulty drive over their tracks in some parts of the city. Then they came up with track-less trolleys and pulled up all the tracks. These track-less trolleys were very successful for a long time.

starzmom
Reply to  Pamela Matlack-Klein
July 19, 2021 1:35 pm

One of my favorite memories in Philadelphia while visiting my dad’s aunt was to watch the trolley cars on the streets. It reminded me of living in Germany as a child. I think the trolleys are gone now.

Pamela Matlack-Klein
Reply to  starzmom
July 20, 2021 1:04 am

Yes, I think they are all gone now. When I last lived in Pennsylvania, 40 years ago, I had a flat in Germantown and used to use Germantown Pike to head out into the western suburbs. The tracks were still there but no more trolleys.

John Endicott
Reply to  starzmom
July 20, 2021 9:34 am

According to wikipedia there are still 3 trolley routes in Philly (all of them “trackless trolleys”

Trolleybuses in Philadelphia – Wikipedia :

Route 59 Arrott Transportation Center Station – Oxford Avenue – Castor Avenue – Bells Corner, Rhawnhurst

Route 66 Frankford Transportation Center – Frankford Avenue – Torresdale/Holmesburg

Route 75 Arrott Terminal Station – Wyoming Avenue – Nicetown

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Jeff in Calgary
July 21, 2021 2:59 pm

What is funny is that we used to have useful electric buses…

Fixed it for you; electric vehicles NOT powered by batteries are the ONLY ones that will ever be useful.

Tom Halla
July 19, 2021 10:14 am

At least the busses didn’t catch fire.

pHil R
Reply to  Tom Halla
July 19, 2021 12:20 pm

Yet…

MarkW
Reply to  pHil R
July 19, 2021 3:30 pm

That would be one way to stay warm during those Philadelphia winters.

KcTaz
Reply to  MarkW
July 20, 2021 12:49 am

That would be most unwelcome in places like Tuscan, tho.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  KcTaz
July 21, 2021 3:08 pm

I’d say bring your weenies and use it as a cooking fire, but you could probably just roast those by holding them over the sidewalk in Tuscan.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  MarkW
July 21, 2021 3:07 pm

Especially when the heaters can’t operate if you want enough battery power to reach your destination!

Dan Sudlik
July 19, 2021 10:27 am

What a joke, and a very expensive one. But I bet they feel so good!

Shoki Kaneda
July 19, 2021 10:29 am

Maybe SEPTA should hire the folks who committed massive voter fraud in Philly. They seem to know how to get things done. 😉

Richard Page
Reply to  Shoki Kaneda
July 19, 2021 10:50 am

A possibility. Unfortunately in order for it to work, you’d probably need to tell them that Proterra was owned by Trump or something similar!

Caligula Jones
July 19, 2021 10:48 am

Wow, on the same day this came across my newsfeed:

https://www.ibtimes.com/united-airlines-invests-electric-planes-dont-count-them-taking-flight-soon-3254706

Of course, if Al Gore volunteered for the first test flight, I might be interested…

willem post
Reply to  Caligula Jones
July 19, 2021 12:14 pm

Please let me know where I can contribute $$ to pay for his very risky flight.

TonyG
Reply to  Caligula Jones
July 20, 2021 8:20 am

Electric planes?
No.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Caligula Jones
July 21, 2021 3:10 pm

Remind me never to fly United again.

Rud Istvan
July 19, 2021 10:48 am

Researched this and Proterra. A fuster cluck all around.

Proterra’s new bus uses a Proterra designed modular battery with LiIon cells. They claimed 300 mile bus range but in Philly were getting at best 50 on the two relatively flat short routes requiring 100 miles per day.
So Proterra just doubled the battery (and battery weight).

To compensate for battery weight, Proterra uses a composite chassis. With the now doubled battery weight the chassis cracked and all the buses had to be taken out of service as unsafe. Lawsuits now flying.

Hybrid diesel electric busses make sense. Downsize the diesel, use the electric machine for acceleration and regen braking. Typical city bus never gets much over 35mph and starts/stops every couple of minutes. All of the newer buses in Fort Lauderdale are hybrids bought from Europe. Batteries are on the roof, add maybe a foot of height and are air cooled. Last life of bus (about 10 years) because never deeply discharged or fully charged.

Mr.
Reply to  Rud Istvan
July 19, 2021 11:45 am

Hybrid vehicles of many kinds make practical and economic sense for the right applications.

It’s the looney idea that battery-powered machines are up to the job right across the board that’s doomed to failure.

(but like socialism, “it’ll work good next time . . . “)

Reply to  Rud Istvan
July 19, 2021 11:54 am

Bought from Europe? Awfully hard for the P*T*S and his cronies to get kickbacks from those. Just won’t fly.

MarkW
Reply to  Rud Istvan
July 19, 2021 12:05 pm

Did you mean that the battery lasted 10 years? Seems to me that the bus should be able to last a lot longer than the battery does. If it’s properly maintained.

Rud Istvan
Reply to  MarkW
July 19, 2021 12:19 pm

Looked it up again rather than rely on memory as above from my energy storage materials business. Average chassis life of a US city transit bus is 12 years. Includes about two engine rebuilds (about every four years).

Regular buses need new brakes about every 25k miles. Hybrids every 100k miles (regen braking), and no engine rebuilds because relatively constant load and rpms. Why all the newer Broward County Transit busses are hybrids. Saves money.

Lrp
Reply to  Rud Istvan
July 19, 2021 2:30 pm

Makes sense, but I wonder why is the life of the chassis of a city bus so short. For comparison the life of a railway car, passenger or freight, is 35 years or more, and they can last a lot longer than that.

Reply to  Lrp
July 19, 2021 8:15 pm

I’d call that a broccoli to oranges comparison.

Railway cars are accelerated relatively slowly – and then travel long distances at close to a constant speed. They also don’t contend with constant major irregularities in the road (i.e., ubiquitous potholes and debris).

Relatively even stress placed on the railway car chassis, as opposed to constant spikes to the bus chassis (same as, or worse, than an urban passenger car).

MarkW
Reply to  Writing Observer
July 20, 2021 9:45 am

Low acceleration, but still a lot of stress as each car has to pull all of the cars behind it.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  MarkW
July 21, 2021 3:25 pm

For diesel powered trains, yes; for electric MU (multiple unit) trains, each car is powered.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Writing Observer
July 21, 2021 3:24 pm

The electric (NOT battery) multiple unit commuter trains I ride could dust the buses that I’ve rode, so that “acceleration” argument is nonsense. Trains also tend to travel at higher speeds as well, since they aren’t operating on city streets with traffic lights, stop signs, sharp corners, auto traffic to compete with, and stops every few hundred feet.

Yes, buses take a pounding from streets that is outsized compared with the relative smoothness of railroad tracks.

John Endicott
Reply to  Lrp
July 20, 2021 9:40 am

Given the conditions of the roads in most major US cities I’ve been to, I’m surprised the chassis lasts as long as they do. And as Writing Observer said, there’s a big difference between the type of wear and tear that a railway car will experience vs what a vehicle on the open road will.

Larry in Texas
Reply to  Rud Istvan
July 19, 2021 2:42 pm

I drive a hybrid automobile (doesn’t need to be charged, either. Averaging 38.4 mpg combined. I have always felt that hybrids are vastly superior to any fully-electric vehicles of any type.

MAL
Reply to  Larry in Texas
July 19, 2021 3:42 pm

I drove a 1985 Chev Nova 405,000 miles it average 34 MPG back then it was a carburetor car. All I had to replace on it was struts, brakes, wiper blades, Driver side seat(it wore out) radiator, plugs, two timing belts, one timing belt idler(reason first belt failed) Carburetor rebuild(should have been replaced), high pressure power steering hose head lights and other bulbs, transmission filter and fluid and lastly regular oil changes some went to 10,000 miles at 750 miles a delaying an oil change in a before a long mile week it was fairly easy to miss a timely oil change. It would seem a well built car in the 1980s could nearly match you hybrid. In mileage and reliability. I drove it to the junk yard when I open up the trunk and could see the ground it died due to road salt.

Mr.
Reply to  MAL
July 19, 2021 4:14 pm

I had an axe like that.
Lasted forever.
Just had 4 new handles and 2 new heads.
🙂

Scissor
Reply to  Mr.
July 19, 2021 5:19 pm

Good as new.

Mike McMillan
Reply to  Mr.
July 19, 2021 7:31 pm

Good one. Had to think on it a bit.

Reply to  Mr.
July 19, 2021 7:36 pm

Not sure what your metric is supposed to imply.

I have an axe that went through 3 handles in two years as my sons and their friends learned to chop trees.

One of the handles lasted one day after installation.
Kids kept out of my sight for days after I found the axe head and it’s now separate handle put back in the garage.

Little did they know at the time, that I prefer over reach swings than too short of a swing. Handles are replaceable.

It was almost as much fun as teaching them to properly swing a 16# sledgehammer to hit a star drill.

Last edited 2 months ago by ATheoK
John Endicott
Reply to  ATheoK
July 20, 2021 9:55 am

I think you missed the joke. He’s saying he replaced every part of the axe (handle and head). It’s a variation of the ship of Theseus thought experiment (known as Grandfather’s Axe) about whether an object that has had all of its components replaced remains fundamentally the same object or not.

from the wikipedia entry:

The ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned from Crete had thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old planks as they decayed, putting in new and stronger timber in their places, insomuch that this ship became a standing example among the philosophers, for the logical question of things that grow; one side holding that the ship remained the same, and the other contending that it was not the same.

— Plutarch, Theseus

Plutarch thus questions whether the ship would remain the same if it were entirely replaced, piece by piece. Centuries later, the philosopher Thomas Hobbes introduced a further puzzle, wondering what would happen if the original planks were gathered up after they were replaced, and then used to build a second ship. Hobbes asked which ship, if either, would be the original ship of Theseus.
 

Last edited 2 months ago by John Endicott
Rud Istvan
Reply to  Larry in Texas
July 19, 2021 4:13 pm

Agree. We drive a MY 2007 Ford hybrid Escape AWD with class one tow hitch. Still going strong after 14 years and about 90k miles. Compared to the equivalent then capable V6, have saved many thousands of dollars (regular v premium, 1/3 less fuel) on top of fact that we got the whole hybrid premium back in tax rebates the year we bought it.
Proverbial no brainer.

Dennis
Reply to  Rud Istvan
July 19, 2021 9:10 pm

Tax rebates, so you paid less tax and were subsidised by the majority who pay taxes and did not received subsidy for personal transport, and probably not for rooftop solar they subsidise for any neighbours who have them.

Free market capitalist system is well proven, let markets pick winners and losers on value for money, not government picking winners using taxpayer’s monies.

guidoLaMoto
Reply to  Rud Istvan
July 20, 2021 5:46 am

Better stick to elecrical engineering, Rud. There’s less energy density in premium compared to regular, and is ony preferred for it’s anti-knock qualitiy in high compression engines (or more mundane engines with terrible carbon build-up.) You were wasting money needlessly.on fuel.

John Endicott
Reply to  guidoLaMoto
July 20, 2021 10:17 am

I don’t know what it is you do, guido, but you should stick to that. gasoline/petrol has an energy density (or specific energy content) of about 42.4 MJ/kg. The energy density does NOT change with the RON or MON octane rating. RON 97 gasoline/petrol has the SAME energy density as RON 92 gasoline/petrol.

The energy density, however, can be higher or lower by up to 4%, depending on the fuel blend used by the refinery, and regulations set by the country. This has nothing to do with the RON or MON octane rating of the fuel, just its blend. 

Matthew Siekierski
Reply to  Larry in Texas
July 20, 2021 4:00 am

I agree. My 2007 hybrid has 280k miles on it (bought it with 180k) and still gets about 40mpg. Kept that one for the wife to use for short trips (instead of using the full size van needed to haul around the 7 kids) when I got a 2015 that’s averaging 45mpg (about a 50/50 split on city/highway driving). It really seems to be the best way to go for now. Quick fillups, regenerative braking, reduced fuel usage (and emissions), not adding to the load on the electrical grid at all. What’s not to like?

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Matthew Siekierski
July 21, 2021 3:32 pm

A good deal of the gas mileage “advantage” credited to hybrid vehicles is accounted for not by the hybrid power train, but from using lighter materials (aluminum vs. steel) for hoods, roof panels and trunk lids, and from using skinny, low rolling resistance tires, all of which could be used on a conventional ICE car to make the gas mileage difference close to nil (since the ICE car doesn’t have the weight of the batteries to haul around). All with less cost and complexity.

Matthew Siekierski
Reply to  AGW is Not Science
July 22, 2021 5:41 am

The F-150 hybrid is about 20% more fuel efficient than it’s standard equivalent. Not super-amazing, but still not something to dismiss. And that’s using a small (for the size of the vehicle) battery so as to not greatly impact it’s max weight capacities (towing or cargo). I also don’t believe they’re replacing steel with aluminum in those vehicles.

20 to 24 mpg doesn’t seem like much but it adds up, especially as gas prices keep going up.

MarkW
Reply to  Rud Istvan
July 19, 2021 3:33 pm

I’m really surprised at how shorth the chassis life is. I can’t think of anything that would put that much stress on them. Are they under built, in order to keep weight down?

Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
Reply to  MarkW
July 20, 2021 6:02 am

Take a ride on a city bus sometime. The local routes always stay in the right lane where all the potholes and damaged storm grates are. Buses usually can’t swerve to avoid them. If the passengers’ bottoms are taking a beating, the bus suspension and chassis are as well.

observa
Reply to  MarkW
July 20, 2021 6:20 am

The handmaiden of engineering is economics and the notion of tradeoffs. You can make an incandescent light globe to last like that Edison one in the fire station dunny but do you still want to pay the cost of running it with unreliables power prices today? Enter nincompoop lefties who’ll tell you it’s a conspiracy of planned obsolescence by capitalist oppressors not to make the everlasting light globe when it’s so obvious that they can.

angech
Reply to  Rud Istvan
July 19, 2021 4:48 pm

“All of the newer buses in Fort Lauderdale are hybrids bought from Europe. Batteries are on the roof, add maybe a foot of height and are air cooled.”
Lots of hills trains and bridges round Melbourne. Aus.
Regular trucks and buses get caught going under too low bridges.
Let alone add another foot of height [not that simple]
Is Fort Lauderdale nice and flat?

Peter Morris
Reply to  angech
July 19, 2021 6:28 pm

Lol. My man, all of Florida is nice and flat. Altamonte Springs (not ironically named) has a commanding view of the surrounding countryside at a whopping 85’ above sea level.

It’s a maddening place to visit if you’re from any location with actual hills.

Rud Istvan
Reply to  angech
July 19, 2021 7:26 pm

Yes, south Florida is very flat.
But more relevant is that our interstates (and so state stuff) are all built to a federal 14’ 6”clearance, while the hybrid buses are at most about 12.

Reply to  angech
July 19, 2021 7:39 pm

Very flat.

John Endicott
Reply to  angech
July 20, 2021 10:20 am

“Is Fort Lauderdale nice and flat?”

Most of Florida is Is nice and flat, unless you count sinking in swamp land in the everglades as “not flat”. 😉


Last edited 2 months ago by John Endicott
KcTaz
Reply to  Rud Istvan
July 20, 2021 12:52 am

How long do diesel buses last?

John Endicott
Reply to  KcTaz
July 20, 2021 10:27 am

“How long do diesel buses last?”

Didn’t find a specific answer to how long they can last. But did find this answer:

most American transit systems expect their buses to have a useful life of 12 years and 250,000 miles. This time frame is due to the fact that, after their buses have been around for 12 years, they are eligible to receive replacement bus funding from the federal government. After twelve years, the “used up” buses are auctioned off for as little as $2,500 and frequently used for many more years by private operators.

In contrast to the United States, other countries keep their buses quite a bit longer than 12 years. Probably the main reason for this is that government funding for bus replacement has traditionally been more difficult in other industrialized countries. Sydney, Australia, has a fleet plan that counts on a bus life expectancy of 23 years. Of course, buses are used for even longer in developing countries. In those countries, as long as the bus has not collapsed in a heap of metal, it is kept in service.

Tom Abbott
Reply to  Rud Istvan
July 20, 2021 5:16 am

“All of the newer buses in Fort Lauderdale are hybrids bought from Europe.”

Hybrids make sense.

The alarmists just can’t stomach doing something that allows the continued use of fossil fuels, even at a reduced rate. So they make the wrong choice and go with all-electric buses.

Last edited 2 months ago by Tom Abbott
AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Rud Istvan
July 21, 2021 3:15 pm

Wow – so one tenth to one sixth of the “range” the manufacturer claimed, on the LEAST demanding routes.

Wanna take bets on how much shorter that gets on the most demanding routes?!

John Bell
July 19, 2021 10:51 am

Hilarious! That is priceless, and dang those are $$$ buses! Green dreams keep on crumbling.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  John Bell
July 21, 2021 3:36 pm

Unfortunately if Biden and the useful idiots in Congress get their way, taxpayers will be funding trillions more of this utter stupidity.

Steve Z
July 19, 2021 10:57 am

If a city wants to “go green” with its bus system, they would be better off with natural-gas powered buses. They emit much less CO2 than conventional diesel-powered buses, and also also much less particulates, especially during frequent starts and stops. They also have a much longer driving range than electric buses.

The only major drawback to natural-gas powered buses is the weight of the compressed-natural gas tank, which makes it heavier than a diesel-powered bus. But their increased driving range allows the buses to be refueled at night, during periods of low demand (such as between midnight at 5 AM).

MarkW
Reply to  Steve Z
July 19, 2021 12:07 pm

I’ve read that the engine oil lasts longer in nat gas engines, because nat gas burns cleaner.

jorgekafkazar
Reply to  MarkW
July 19, 2021 2:33 pm

They burn hotter because there’s no fuel vaporization in the cylinders.

Reply to  MarkW
July 19, 2021 7:44 pm

Oil degrades from the engine’s heat breaking the long hydrocarbon chains. Carbon deposits simply end up in the oil filter.

I believe both LPG and gasoline engines have the same oil change maintenance schedules. After all, they typically are the same engine.

guidoLaMoto
Reply to  ATheoK
July 20, 2021 5:59 am

Lubricating oil picks up partially burned combustion products (from fuel as well as degraded oil itself) and the soot in the oil then “sandblasts” the lubricated engne surfaces. Oil is changed regularly to eliminate that soot, not because the oil has significantly lost lubricating ability. The oil filter only catches small animals and any chunks of metal that may have shaved off. It doesn’t do much for that soot. If it really worked well, why is oil so dirty again after just a few hours of running? (Works kinda like a mask for CoV.)

Grumpy Bill
Reply to  Steve Z
July 19, 2021 12:28 pm

All the busses owned by the Transit Authority in my area are NG.

jorgekafkazar
Reply to  Grumpy Bill
July 19, 2021 2:33 pm

No Good?

Scissor
Reply to  jorgekafkazar
July 19, 2021 5:26 pm

GE engines are Good Enough.

Drake
Reply to  Steve Z
July 19, 2021 3:15 pm

If the buses don’t make the shift without a refill, it would be a problem.

Some 15 years ago I was stuck with a NG PU truck for a city job requiring 2o to 50 miles a day. The City only had one refueling station convenient to my area. It took 40 minutes or so to refuel. I had to do it at least twice a week.

The truck also ran on gasoline. After messing with the NG for a couple of weeks, I quite using it and just ran the gas, and refilled less than once a week at any of three city fuel pumps. I was a conscientious citizen and could not see wasting productive time refueling the NG. Of course the NG fueling stations and vehicles were paid for by the federal government.

I looked into putting NG into a small 4 cylinder car about 25 years ago, the cost would have been about $3,000.00 US. That included the tank and controls and the pump to fill the tank at my house overnight. I almost pulled the trigger, but decided it wasn’t worth the trouble. Although the system would have allowed you to switch between gas and NG the range with just NG would have made the car a local vehicle, like “modern” electrics,

As to buses, years ago I read that Denver had converted their busses to diesel and NG, where they would accelerate with diesel then switch to NG under the lower load of cruising speed. If I remember correctly, they were getting more miles out of the engines because the NG helped keep the engine cleaner. I tried a search for a link, but this was quite a while ago, and DDG was full of NEW stuff.

Reply to  Drake
July 19, 2021 7:59 pm

I looked into putting NG into a small 4 cylinder car about 25 years ago, the cost would have been about $3,000.00 US.”

Last time I looked into converting a vehicle it cost over $50,000 just for the official approval back around 2000.

That cost goes to the EPA which “approves” LPG vehicle conversions.

The arrangement is meant for vehicle manufacturers to seek EPA LPG vehicle conversion approvals, except approvals tend to be specific to make, model, engine, and engine add-ons.

Unless the manufacture has a nice juicy national fleet deployment in the works, it does not pay for them to seek approvals for every vehicle model, engine and engine add-on versions.

Simply buying the tanks hoses and doing your own installation would get your car failed at it’s next inspection. Your registration would not have LPG capability listed.
The vehicle inspection station is likely to treat your unapproved LPG installation as a mobile bomb.

John Endicott
Reply to  ATheoK
July 20, 2021 10:45 am

First off he said “NG”, that does not necessarily mean LNG, it could have been CNG. (and considering the time frame, “25 years ago”, and the vehicle size “a small 4 cylinder car”, it was more likely CNG than LNG)

Second. EPA approval is needed to claim the tax credit for conversion, not necessarily for passing inspection (that would depend more on the laws in your particular state which may or may nor include EPA approval). The big problem with “doing it yourself” isn’t inspection, it’s the possibly of fines for running afoul of the Clean Air Act’s rules against modifying fuel systems–a violation that could cost you up to $5000 in fines for every day you drive the converted vehicle. In short you have to go to a certified installer to do the job (which should also help with making you car “street legal” as far as inspections go).

When popular mechanics looked into the numbers for CNG conversion back in 2012, they came up with “A properly installed conversion will run anywhere from $6500 for a basic system to $12,000 for a top-of-the-line installation with a high-capacity, composite fuel tank. If you want a home fueling compressor, tack on another $3500 minimum”. So a lot closer to his 3k number than your 50k one.

Last edited 2 months ago by John Endicott
fretslider
July 19, 2021 11:01 am

The bigger the cock-up the greater the reward

BlueCat57
July 19, 2021 11:02 am

Government has ZERO incentive to maintain anything. You can’t put your name on maintenance. Ever see a headline praising anyone for their vote or donation to maintain something? No, voting for an “infrastructure bill” does NOT count. Have you ever read one of those bills? A SMALL fraction for “maintenance”, the vast majority for new pork-barrel projects with the local elected employee’s name on them.
Olde Wisdom from Thee Frugal Curmudgeon

Pariah Dog
July 19, 2021 11:04 am

This calls for a Nelson.

nelson-haha-gif-3-1[1].gif
dmanfred
July 19, 2021 11:31 am

Duluth Mn is the last place you’d want to use electric busses. It’s built on the side of 600 foot mountain. And it get -30 in the winter.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  dmanfred
July 21, 2021 3:41 pm

It’s therefore the perfect testing ground for them, so the delusion that they are a replacement for fossil fuel powered buses can quickly be destroyed, with much less waste of taxpayer money.

Mr.
July 19, 2021 11:36 am

“Nothing ‘green’ ever works properly”
– Tim Blair

alastair gray
July 19, 2021 11:41 am

bloomin’ heck How can you spend a million bucks on a bus.. A london deisel bus costs about $400000 and they used top last about 20 years

Matt
July 19, 2021 11:47 am

Don’t throw them away. Stick a tow truck on the front of each one and Robert’s your relative.

Archer
Reply to  Matt
July 19, 2021 1:14 pm

Aye, and if my aunt had wheels, she’d be a proterra bus.

Rory Forbes
Reply to  Archer
July 19, 2021 5:40 pm

Well … if MY aunt had wheels she’d be a limousine. So there.

Kevin
July 19, 2021 11:50 am

I’m sure they included maintenance staff reductions in the budget for purchasing these these marvels, right?

Pamela Matlack-Klein
July 19, 2021 11:51 am

So, a million bucks each and they got five whole years of use out of the things? This should give anyone contemplating the purchase of an EV something to think about.

MarkW
July 19, 2021 11:55 am

A range of 30 to 50 miles, yet the batteries are so heavy they are cracking the frame.

So much for the claim that electric busses are the perfect choices for cities.

PS: I wonder if that 30 to 50 miles was in the summer or the winter?
Summer, need to run big AC unit, heat decreases effective battery charge.
Winter, need to run big heater units, cold decreases effective battery charge,.

Rud Istvan
Reply to  MarkW
July 19, 2021 12:22 pm

See above. To solve the Philly range issue, Proterra doubled the battery and the added weight cracked the chassis because was not designed for it.

Reply to  Rud Istvan
July 19, 2021 1:44 pm

That remembers me an old joke about Starfighters in Germany… 😀
The German Airforce bought a lot of Starfighters with a lot of adds, the plane wasn’t designed for, the knew that, but…..
It came what had to come…..

So, the question arised:
Do you want a Starfighter ?
Wow, yes, why not !
Buy some ground and wait.

269 crashs, 116 unnecessary regrettable deaths.
Widowmaker was it’s second name.

Last edited 2 months ago by Krishna Gans
Zig Zag Wanderer
Reply to  Krishna Gans
July 19, 2021 2:26 pm

Now that’s a Captain Lockheed reference! A great song on a great album from a great bunch of musicians.

Last edited 2 months ago by Zig Zag Wanderer
KcTaz
Reply to  Krishna Gans
July 20, 2021 1:08 am

Germany used to be renowned for its engineering. It seems to have gone downhill at a rapid pace.

Jan. 12, 2018
German Engineering Yields New Warship That Isn’t Fit for Sea
Navy refuses to commission frigate after it failed sea trials; critics cite fiasco in conception and execution
Jan. 12, 2018
https://www.wsj.com/articles/german-engineering-yields-new-warship-that-isnt-fit-for-sea-1515753000
[

Defense experts cite the warship’s buggy software and ill-considered arsenal—as well as what was until recently its noticeable list to starboard—as symptoms of deeper, more intractable problems: Shrinking military expertise and growing confusion among German leaders about what the country’s armed forces are for.

A litany of bungled infrastructure projects has tarred Germany’s reputation for engineering prowess. There is still no opening date for Berlin’s new €6 billion ($7.2 billion) airport, which is already 10 years behind schedule, and the redesign of Stuttgart’s railway station remains stalled more than a decade after work on the project started. Observers have blamed these mishaps on poor planning and project management, which also figured in major setbacks for several big military projects.

German military procurement is “one hell of a complete disaster,” said Christian Mölling, a defense-industry expert at the German Council on Foreign Relations in Berlin. “It will take years to sort this problem out.”
The naval fiasco, on a project with a €3 billion price tag, is particularly startling since Europe’s largest exporter relies on open and secure shipping lanes to transport its goods.

willem post
July 19, 2021 11:57 am

Here is an article about a failed electric school bus program in Massachusetts.

EXCERPT

ELECTRIC SCHOOL BUS SYSTEMS NOT COST-EFFECTIVE IN NEW ENGLAND AND CANADA
https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/electric-bus-systems-likely-not-cost-effective-in-vermont-at

Vermont’s Governor“Investing in more energy-efficient public transportation is important for our economy and environment,” the governor said. He added that the COVID money is enabling the transportation agency to replace as many as 30 buses and fund energy-efficient projects.”
http://www.truenorthreports.com/governor-and-senators-seeking-more-
 
NOTE: Each $325,000 electric school bus reduces CO2 by about 10 metric ton/y, compared to a $100,000 diesel bus. Vermont has much better CO2 reduction options. See Appendix.

The Vermont House Energy/Environment Committee, the VT Transportation Department, VEIC, EAN, etc., echo the same message, to “convince” legislators, people in the Governor’s Office, and Vermonters, to use COVID money and Volkswagen Settlement money to buy expensive electric buses to deal with a minor pollution problem in a few urban areas in Vermont.

Such an electric vehicle measure would be much more appropriate in the over-crowded, down-town Boston Area and the Connecticut Gold Coast.
 
The cabal urge Vermonters to buy electric buses at about:
 
$750,000 – $1,000,000 per mass-transit bus, plus high-speed charging systems.
standard diesel mass-transit bus costs $380,000 – $420,000

$330,000 – $375,000, per school bus, plus high-speed charging systems.
A standard diesel/gasoline school bus costs about $100,000
https://atlaspolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Electric-Buses-a
 
“Free” Federal COVID Money for Expensive Electric School Buses
 
The Governor and bureaucrats are throwing COVID money, meant for suffering households and businesses, into another climate-fighting black hole.
  
Spending huge amounts of capital on various projects that yield minor reductions in CO2, is a recipe for low economic efficiency, and for low economic growth, on a state-wide and nation-wide scale, which would adversely affect state and US competitiveness in markets, and adversely affect living standards and job creation.
 
Costs of Government RE Programs
 
Vermont’s government engaging in electric bus demonstration programs, financed with COVID money, likely would prove to be expensive undertakings, requiring hidden subsidies, white-washing and obfuscation.
 
Lifetime spreadsheets, with 1) turnkey capital costs, 2) annual cashflows, 3) annual energy cost savings, 4) annual CO2 reductions, and 5) cost of CO2 reduction/metric ton, with all assumptions clearly stated and explained, likely will never see the light of day.
  
Including Amortizing Capital Cost for a Rational Approach to Projects
 
RE proponents do not want to include amortizing costs, because it makes the financial economics of their dubious climate projects appear dismal. This is certainly the case with expensive electric buses. If any private-enterprise business were to ignore amortizing costs, it would be out of business in a short time, per Economics 101
 
Capital cost of electric bus, plus charger, $327,500 + $25,000 = $352,500
Battery system cost, $100,000, for a 60 to 80-mile range.
Capital cost of diesel bus, $100,000
Additional capital cost, 352500 – 100000 = $252,500
Travel, 12,000 miles/y, the average of diesel school buses in Vermont.
https://afdc.energy.gov/data/10310

willem post
July 19, 2021 11:59 am

Charging Electric Vehicles During Freezing Conditions
https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/electric-bus-systems-likely-not-cost-effective-in-vermont-at

 
School Bus Normal Operation at 32F and below: On cold/freezing days, an electric bus would use on-board systems to heat the battery, as needed, during its daily route.

EV Parking: When at home, it is best to keep EVs plugged in during periods with 32F and below, whether parked indoors or outdoors.
When parking at a motel, or an airport, it is best to fully charge EVs prior to parking, to enable the on-board systems to heat the battery, as needed, during parking.

Charging at 32F and below: Li-ion batteries must not be charged when the batterytemperature is at 32F or less.
Turn on “pre-conditioning”, i.e., the battery heating/cooling system (which could be a heat pump) very slowly heats up the battery to about 40F. After the battery is “up to temperature”, normal charging can be started, either at home, or on the road. 

Pre-conditioning can be set to:
 
1) Preheat the car cabin and/or seats
2) Defrost windshield wipers, windows, door handles and charge port, etc.; Tesla has a charge port heater. See URL
https://getoptiwatt.com/news/tesla-extreme-weather-considerations-how-to-optimize-your-tesla-driving-for-winter-months/

Power Failure, while parked at 32F and below: Partially charged batteries, connected to dead chargers, could use much of their remaining charge to prevent freezing of batteries. 
See URLs.

NOTE: Li-ions (pos.) are absorbed by the anode (neg.) at lesser rates at a batterytemperature of 32F and below. Any excess Li-ions plate out on the anode, which further reduces the absorption rate. This condition increases charging percentage, increases kWh/mile, and reduces range. This condition is permanent, i.e., cannot be reversed.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/06/12/electric-bus-inferno-in-hanover-germanyexplosive-fire-causes-millions-in-damages/
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/263036/why-charging-li-ion-batteries-in-cold-temperatures-would-harm-them
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_at_high_and_low_temperatures

NOTE:
– Batteries have miscellaneous losses to provide electricity to on-board systems, similar to Tesla and other EVs  
– On cold/freezing days, an electric bus should be ready for service as soon as the driver enters the bus
– On cold/freezing days, the driver would need at least 70% charge, because travel would require more energy per mile

NOTE
If the battery temperature is less than 40F or more than 115F, it will use more kWh/mile
The higher efficiency range, charging and discharging, is 60F to 80F. 
Batteries have greater internal resistance at lower temperatures. 
Pro-bus folks often point to California regarding electric buses, but in New England, using electric buses to transport children would be a whole new ballgame, especially on colder days. See URLs
 
NOTE: Where would the electricity come from to charge and protect from cold, expensive batteries during extended electricity outages, due to multi-day, hot and cold weather events, with minimal wind and sun, as occur in California, Texas and New England?
Emergency standby diesel-generators? Emergency standby batteries?
 
https://www.wired.com/story/electric-cars-cold-weather-tips/
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1127610_keep-your-parked-electric-car-and-its-battery-healthy-with-these-simple-tips

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  willem post
July 23, 2021 9:26 am

Oh just put the EV buses in garages heated by…fossil fuels! LMFAO.

PaulH
July 19, 2021 12:05 pm

Two pilot routes selected in South Philadelphia that were relatively short and flat compared with others in the city were too much for the electric buses.

Maybe they should have tried this softball test before committing millions of taxpayer dollars.

Douglas Lampert
Reply to  PaulH
July 19, 2021 3:07 pm

I suspect that this WAS the small scale softball test. 24 busses is not much for a city the size of Philadelphia, and given that they only ran the two routes, that implies that the rest of the city was still on diesel.

Even a softball test costs millions when you’re talking significant infrastructure for a large city. You need enough busses to see how they work on average, which means a decent sized statistical sample. 25 busses is a reasonable number for that. It’s just that these are ~1 million dollar busses, which means ANY test with more than one of them is multiple million taxpayer dollars committted.

PaulH
Reply to  Douglas Lampert
July 20, 2021 6:19 am

Good points.

Nick Werner
July 19, 2021 12:06 pm

“The next stop is… Recycle Depot.”

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Nick Werner
July 21, 2021 3:50 pm

More like “The Next Stop is…Landfill.”

July 19, 2021 12:16 pm

Duluth ultimately pulled its seven buses from service “because their braking systems were struggling on Duluth’s hills, and a software problem was causing them to roll back when accelerating uphill from a standstill,”

Well that sounds like such fun – you’re in the bus with your children and it starts rolling backwards down the hill. Do you sit still and enjoy the ride until you hit something, or try to jump out with your kids before the bus accelerates too fast?

Maybe you grab a couple of idiot city councilors and throw them under the tires to try to slow the bus? Nah, probably would not work – you’d need the entire city council.

(Do I have to say sarc/off?)

Last edited 2 months ago by ALLAN MACRAE
Rory Forbes
Reply to  ALLAN MACRAE
July 19, 2021 6:27 pm

Maybe you grab a couple of idiot city councilors and throw them under the tires to try to slow the bus? Nah, probably would not work – you’d need the entire city council.

Are you implying they’re a bunch of lightweights? Shocking, I say, shocking.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Rory Forbes
July 21, 2021 3:52 pm

Well, assuming said council members were the ones that approved the stupid battery powered buses, it would be a fine example of those who deserve to be “thrown under the bus.” 😀

markl
July 19, 2021 12:17 pm

Another shoot, ready, aim for the AGW believers.

Thomas Gasloli
July 19, 2021 12:18 pm

Another stellar success by Jennifer Grandstand🤪

CarGuy Pete
July 19, 2021 12:21 pm

From the Duluth Monitor

Proterra technicians traveled to Duluth to make the necessary repairs. To reduce the drain on the battery, they installed diesel-powered heating systems on the buses. This upgrade allowed the battery to be used strictly for locomotion—but also meant that the buses were no longer emissions-free.”

Why didn’t they just install diesel generators?

https://www.duluthmonitor.com/2020/09/19/electric-bus-pilot-project-reveals-problems/

AlexBerlin
Reply to  CarGuy Pete
July 19, 2021 6:35 pm

Or diesel MOTORS?!

willem post
July 19, 2021 12:26 pm

Here is a MUST READ EV anecdote

Briglin is an eager-beaver RE nut in Vermont, unfortunately the Chairman of the House E&E Committee

He has been bragging about his EV and that everyone should buy one. Then his EV CAUGHT FIRE

https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/some-ne-state-governments-play-deceptive-games-with-co2-emissions

THETFORD; July 2, 2021 — A fire destroyed a 2019 Chevy Bolt, owned by state Rep. Tim Briglin, D-Thetford, Chairman of the House Committee on Energy and Technology.

He had plugged his 2019 Chevy Bolt into his 240-volt outdoor charger.
The battery was at 10% charge at start of charging, at 8 PM, and he had charged it to 100% charge at 4 AM (8 hours of charging!!) 

NOTE: Charging to 100% not only use more kWh AC per kWh DC in the battery, but also heats up your battery, i.e., a shorter life and less range sooner.

He was lucky, it was not parked in his garage. 
Firefighters were called to Briglin’s Tucker Hill Road home around 9 AM Thursday. See Note

Investigators from the Vermont Department of Public Safety Fire and Explosion Investigation Unit determined: 

1) The fire started in a compartment in the back of the passenger’s side of the vehicle
2) It was likely due to an electrical failure.

In 2020, GM issued a recall of nearly 68,667 Chevy Bolts, 2017, 2018 and 2019 models. 
Owners are advised not to charge them in a garage, and not to leave them unattended while charging, which may take up to 8 hours; what a nuisance!
                                          
NOTE
EV batteries should be charged from 20% to 80% charge, for minimal degradation and long life.
EV batteries shall not be charged, when the battery temperature is less than 32F; if charged anyway, the battery would be permanently damaged.

See section Charging Electric Vehicles During Freezing Conditions in URL
https://www.windtaskforce.org/profiles/blogs/some-ne-state-governments-play-deceptive-games-with-co2-emissions

https://www.vnews.com/Firefighters-put-out-blaze-in-car-of-Vt-State-Representative-41272606
https://www.engadget.com/gm-chevy-bolt-fire-warning-215322969.html
https://electrek.co/2020/11/13/gm-recall-chevy-bolt-evs-potential-fire-risk/

Reply to  willem post
July 19, 2021 2:02 pm

“He has been bragging about his EV and that everyone should buy one.”
Should every EV owner burn her/his vehicle every two years, there is no need for the rest of us to go electric.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  willem post
July 21, 2021 3:56 pm

So pretty much useless north of say, Florida. SMH!

I’m sure that’s another “gotcha!” regarding the specified “range” they use to sell EV garbage – that is probably calculated based on 100% charge, which they then tell you not to do. :-I

Mike Lowe
July 19, 2021 12:49 pm

Inadequate long-term testing. Rather like than not carried out by Mr. Pfizer!

Reply to  Mike Lowe
July 19, 2021 1:52 pm

I agree with your sentiment. On the other hand, would you prefer a face mask for five years?

Doonman
Reply to  Curious George
July 19, 2021 2:30 pm

Now, we have to wear face masks again along with vaccinations. So it is apparent that neither work as advertised, just like electric buses.

niceguy
Reply to  Curious George
July 19, 2021 4:15 pm

What about: leave people alone? There was never anything remotely close to a pandemic.

Gary Pearse
July 19, 2021 1:02 pm

“the weight of the powerful battery was cracking the vehicles’ chassis, and the battery life was insufficient for the city’s bus routes. ”

Have they dumbed down or dispensed with engineers? Chassis breaking because of weight of batteries. Insufficient range to complete a route. As a mining engineer, even I could have pre-determined these failures.

Buses on city streets are different than on a company’s test track. Hit a few potholes and multiply the actual load of the batteries. Apply the brakes sharply a dozen times a day and the forward torque of the battery load compresses the forward mounts and lifts on the rear ones repeatedly.Take a few hundred right and left turns at intersections and sideways torque loads one side of the chassis in compression and the other in tension repeatedly.

What was done here was to concentrate on chiseling off as much overall weight from the bus as possible to get driving range. The chassis was one they over did.

Almost anything else but a chassis failure could probably be fixed and modified. These are shear/fatigue failures so the buses that haven’t failed yet also need to be taken out of service. The range problem has to be dealt with though.

For cities electrifying their fleets, get 3 buses early in the contract and run them on your most demanding route for 3yrs. Then have them taken apart and thoroughly inspected for field info for the manufacturer to make modifications.

Reply to  Gary Pearse
July 19, 2021 1:35 pm

Yeah, but the electricity likely comes from coal so what’s the point?

Gary Pearse
Reply to  Anti_griff
July 20, 2021 2:59 am

Yeah, I agree with you there, Griff, coal power didn’t fail.

TonyG
Reply to  Gary Pearse
July 20, 2021 8:51 am

“As a mining engineer, even I could have pre-determined these failures.”

Hell, as a software engineer (which is nowhere near the level of rigor required for physical engineering) I could have predicted them.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  TonyG
July 21, 2021 4:00 pm

I’m not any kind of an engineer, and I could figure out that multiplying the battery pack weight by two was going to be a problem.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  Gary Pearse
July 21, 2021 3:59 pm

That won’t work, because the battery powered buses won’t be able to run your most demanding routeswhich should tell you everything you need to know about what a bad idea they are!

Mike Sexton
July 19, 2021 1:11 pm

What about the emissions from manufacturing? They never seem to talk about those. I’ve asked people in these cars and all I get is a dumb look.

DonM
Reply to  Mike Sexton
July 20, 2021 5:13 pm

I park in the ‘Low Emision & Electric vehicles only” spaces all the time.

I thought by now I would have to explain to some idgit that, given the manufacturing emissions and the 370,000 miles on the Tahoe (small suburban), it has a lower overall emission rate than whatever they drive.

AT 13 mpg it may not be true, but I’m still lookn forward to telling the story.

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  DonM
July 21, 2021 4:01 pm

They give EVs the close parking so they don’t run out of charge looking for parking spaces and clog up the lot.

Gordon A. Dressler
July 19, 2021 1:21 pm

From the above article:
“Even those routes needed buses to pull around 100 miles each day, while the Proterras were averaging just 30 to 50 miles per charge . . . Officials also quickly realized there wasn’t room at the ends of either route for charging stations.”

One mighty fine example of the average IQ level of bureaucrats! Philadelphia’s taxpayers and businesses should take pride that it only cost them $25 million or so to re-discover this age-old fact.

Gary Pearse
July 19, 2021 1:43 pm

A quick search reveals widespread problems with EV buses everywhere. The bursting into flame of the fleet of German buses, to me, is the one I would be most concerned about. You can always get off a bus that’s run out of juice.

When the famous laptop burst into flames on an airliner, specifications for battery chemicals changed that reduced transition element impurities in the lithium carbonate feedstock for battery manufacture to single digit ppm and lower and the industry also began switching from lithium carbonate to lithium hydroxide as the preferred starting chemical.

An important thing to ask for by a prospective customer for a bus fleet is the battery manufacturer’s specifications for its battery chemicals to have these checked for details of acceptable impurities. Breakdowns are a nuisance for passengers but a battery fire could be a disaster. The rough ride a big battery gets in a bus is something I’m not familiar with in terms of fire risk, but I’d be worried about it.

niceguy
Reply to  Gary Pearse
July 19, 2021 4:09 pm

It still took several incidents, some quite serious, to do something about the 777. Under Obama’s watch, under the EU’s watch (who was “president” of Europe? nobody knows!!!!).

And they dared accuse Trump‘s FAA to not be vigilant with Boeing…

Carlo, Monte
Reply to  niceguy
July 19, 2021 5:06 pm

Everything is Trump’s fault…

DonM
Reply to  Carlo, Monte
July 20, 2021 5:18 pm

If it weren’t for Trump’s policies and arrogance, Hunter would not be smokn all the crack; and little sister wouldn’t have memories of showering with dad.

Mike McMillan
Reply to  niceguy
July 19, 2021 9:49 pm

What was wrong with the 777?

Disputin
Reply to  Mike McMillan
July 20, 2021 6:02 am

“What was wrong with the 777?”

As I recall, it used a lithium battery for one of it’s systems, and they developed a nasty habit of bursting into flames, sometimes actually in flight!

Ossqss
July 19, 2021 1:43 pm

Ever wonder why there is not much talk about recycling Lithium type batteries?

Here is more than you want to know.

Recycling lithium-ion batteries from electric vehicles | Nature

and

The Race To Crack Battery Recycling—Before It’s Too Late | WIRED

and

It’s time to get serious about recycling lithium-ion batteries (acs.org)

Can they make a solar or wind powered incinerator? Just sayin>

John Hultquist
July 19, 2021 2:24 pm

The stock price is about 1/3 of its peak in January 2021.
This is what is meant by a green new deal.

[In some places the bus drivers were classed as “green jobs”.]

AGW is Not Science
Reply to  John Hultquist
July 21, 2021 4:04 pm

AS I like to call it (and more accurately), the “Green Screw-Steal.”

Alex
July 19, 2021 2:24 pm

Why does it remind me the Monorail affair from Springfield, Simpsons?

niceguy
Reply to  Alex
July 19, 2021 4:10 pm

Who is the most abominable character in the Simpsons, and why is it Lisa?

Peter R Roach
July 19, 2021 3:09 pm

Philly has of lot overhead wires from trackless trolleys to handle much of this. I don’t know why that was not used. The buses, were 100% crap from the start.

John Hultquist
Reply to  Peter R Roach
July 19, 2021 6:43 pm

I like the blue color. Bought a Subaru Crosstrek that color.
It worked as advertised.

n.n
July 19, 2021 4:03 pm

50 shades of Boeing Max. Also, no durable testing to establish safety… viability profiles. Just do it. Deja vu.

Tom
July 19, 2021 4:12 pm

As usual, the crowd here is celebrating the failure of at least some electric buses even though someone actively using the thought process would realize that this says nothing about the feasibility of electric bus technology generally. I have no opinion on the matter because I know so little about it, but I will not be surprised if electric busses become more and more commonplace. There is certainly an advantage to using them in cities since the are cleaner and quieter (within the city). Does it make an iota of difference to global warming; very unlikely. Someday the truth of global warming/climate change will become more clear to everyone and all this fussing will fade away. I, unfortunately, will not live to see this.

angech
Reply to  Tom
July 19, 2021 4:57 pm

Electric trains and trams work fine
Just not compatible with personal or business vehicle use on the on the same road.

John Hultquist
Reply to  Tom
July 19, 2021 6:51 pm

Eventually the E-Bus will be useful. 10 years?
The story here is throwing money at something just to see if it sticks.
Capital will be available when the technology begins to seem promising.
If Philly spent its own money I wouldn’t mind.

Leo Smith
Reply to  John Hultquist
July 19, 2021 7:27 pm

Tye fact is that battery technology in terms of watt hours per kilogram is approaching very close to theoretical limits.
Battery cars never will match furl cars for range.

Leo Smith
Reply to  Tom
July 19, 2021 7:25 pm

This says everything about the feasibility of electric bus technology generally.

The batteries are not big enough, and when they made them bigger, the bus performance was totally degraded and it cracked its carbon fibre chassis.
regen braking is all very well but it isn’t 100% efficient and stopping and starting a heavy bus inherently uses more electricity than cruising along a freeway.

MarkW
Reply to  Tom
July 20, 2021 10:03 am

Who cares what the actual data shows? Buses will succeed because Tom wants them to succeed.

As to the truth of global warming, once again Tom couldn’t care less about what the actual data is. He believes it is true, therefor it will someday be proven to be true.

Spoken like a true believer. (But not a believer in science.)

Last edited 2 months ago by MarkW
observa
Reply to  Tom
July 21, 2021 6:49 am

They should have known the obvious with EVs and heavy loads-
Why Are Electric Cars So Bad At Towing? (lifehacker.com.au)
It’s why they’re working hard on hydrogen tech for heavy transport ea