EV’s not family workhorses, but short range second cars

Range Anxiety: California study may be a downer for EV excitement as it shows that EV’s are driven half as much as internal combustion engine vehicles.

By Ronald Stein

Ambassador for Energy & Infrastructure, Irvine, California

With half of the EV’s in the entire country being located in California, the recent 2021 California study may be a downer for the EV excitement as it shows that EV’s are driven half as much as internal combustion engine vehicles. The study illustrates that EV’s are generally second vehicles and not the primary workhorse vehicle for those few elites that can afford them.

To date, zero and low emission vehicles are generally from the hybrid and electric car owners which are a scholarly bunch; over 70 percent of EV owners have a four-year college or post-graduate degree. This likely explains why the average household income of EV purchasers is upwards of $200,000.

If you are not in that higher educated echelon and the high-income range of society, and a homeowner or resident of a NEW apartment that has charging access there may not be an appetite for an EV. EV’s have yet to attain the status of being the family’s primary vehicle workhorse with their limited usage.

Another challenge for the EV growth is the EV charging dependence on intermittent electricity from wind and solar. Adding EV charging loads onto the grid that is becoming more unstable is like putting salt in the wound. Power outages are now commonplace in California and Texas with more to follow throughout the nation as we adjust to a life dependent upon the time of day and the weather.

The highly educated, and well compensated EV owners that take advantage of State and Federal subsidies are sparingly using their “green” vehicles. With them setting the pace, how will the middle-income and those on fixed incomes be able to buy into the EV evolution?

The California EV market is looking for the less fortunate to belly up and join the EV train. That may prove to be a financial challenge with 45 percent of the California population – that’s a whopping 18 of the 40 million residents of the state – being Hispanic and African American – having average incomes of less than half of present EV owners. Additionally, California has the highest homeless population which is the fifth largest percentage of homeless (behind D.C., New York, and Hawaii, and Oregon), and has the second highest poverty rate.

The unintended consequences Governor Newsom’s recent Executive order to ban the sale of gas-powered vehicles by 2035 may be an incentive for those least likely being able to afford a new car, or a second car, to continuously re-register their existing internal combustion vehicles.

Governor Newsom may have forgotten that whatever type of vehicles uses the roads, there are huge funding requirements for both California’s transportation infrastructure, and for the numerous environmental compliance programs that have come from the gas pumps. The state and federal subsidies help lower the price of EV’s, but EV owners do not pay any gas taxes for California’s almost 400,000 miles of roadways that are heavily dependent on road taxes from fuels that contribute more than $7 billion annually, the same tax base that will be diminishing in the decades ahead.

EV buyers hope to save from the cost of fuels as the all-in posted price of fuel at the pump includes non-transparent costs added to the actual fuel costs, such as: federal tax, excise tax, state tax, local sales tax, cap and trade program compliance costs, low-carbon fuel standard program compliance costs, and renewable fuels standard program compliance costs.

California’s Newsom may also have forgotten that his own Democrats overwhelmingly defeated Senator John Moorlach’s sponsored SB 1074 in 2018 “Disclosure of government-imposed costs” at the pump. The Supermajority Democrats in the legislature remain content with non-transparency of the numerous costs that are “dumped” onto the posted price of fuel, as they are content with keeping the public blissfully ignorant of the many taxes and regulatory costs that drive up prices, to the point that Californians continue to pay almost $1.00 more per gallon of fuel than the rest of the country. An Exxon gas station recently expressed their “transparency opinion” at the pump.

EV buyers beware that the “tax equalizer”, the “VMT” is coming. The Vehicle Mileage Tax (VMT) that has been discussed for years sounds like a logical idea – requiring the users of the highways to pay the fees to maintain those highways. The VMT tax will be needed to replace the $7 billion annually from fuel sales that will be diminishing in the decades ahead.

The challenge for a VMT will be how to implement that great idea which may require annual odometer readings! Lookout for Governor Newsom’s next Executive Order for a VMT requiring annual odometer readings so that each person pays their fair share to maintain the roads they are using to replace the diminishing fuel taxes!

In the United States there were17 million vehicles of all types sold in 2019. EV sales were a dismal 2 percent of the total, i.e., about 350 thousand. California new car sales were more than 10 percent of the nation as California vehicle sales have exceeded 2 million for three straight years.

In a recent Los Angeles Times article, citing Edmunds data, The number of battery-electric models available more than doubled from 2018 to 2019, but EV sales budged in the wrong direction. In response to the major efforts by manufacturers, the horrific EV sales data shows that only 325,000 electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles were sold in the U.S. in 2019, down from 349,000 in 2018.  As mentioned previously, half of all EV’s in America are in one state – California. The rest of the country seems to be less enthralled with EV’s. Are EV carmakers driving off a cliff?”

If the California trend of EV’s being low mileage driven second vehicles, and not being the family workhorse vehicles for the higher income owners, when and how will the lower income earners join the EV excitement?

Ronald Stein, P.E.​ Ambassador for Energy & Infrastructure

http://www.energyliteracy.net/

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Bill Toland
April 22, 2021 2:12 am

Since electric cars weigh more than their equivalent petrol cars this means that they cause more damage to the roads. I presume that the vehicle mileage tax will take this into account and electric car owners will pay an additional surtax.

fretslider
Reply to  Bill Toland
April 22, 2021 2:18 am

In the UK they pay no road tax. That’s the nudge to get one.

I recall they tried it once before with Diesel engines. Now Diesel is the enemy.

Last edited 3 months ago by fretslider
H B
Reply to  fretslider
April 22, 2021 3:17 am

Wear on roads rises as the cube of axle loading (effectively vehicle mass) so they should pay more, much more.

Bryan A
Reply to  H B
April 22, 2021 6:30 am

I found this on Curb Weights

ICE

Vehicle Class Curb Weight in Pounds Curb Weight in Kilograms
Compact car 2,919 pounds 1,324 kilograms
Midsize car 3,361 pounds 1,524 kilograms
Large car 3,882 pounds 1,760 kilograms
Compact truck or SUV 3,590 pounds 1,628 kilograms
Midsize truck or SUV 4,404 pounds 1,997 kilograms
Large truck or SUV 5,603 pounds 2,541 kilograms

EV

Model X Long Range – 2459 kg without passengers or fuel (7 adult capacity).
Tesla Model S Performance – 2241 kg without passengers or cargo (5 adult capacity).
Tesla Model S Long Range – 2215 kg without passengers of cargo (5 adult capacity).
Model 3 Performance and Long Range AWD – 1847 kg without passengers or fuel (5 adult capacity).
Nissan Leaf – 1775 kg without passengers or fuel (5 adult capacity).
Chevrolet Bolt – 1616 kg without passengers or fuel (5 adult capacity).
Opel/Vauxhall Ampera-E – 1611 kg without passengers or fuel (5 adult capacity).
Renault Zoe, 44 kWh – 1480 kg without passengers or fuel (5 adult capacity).
Hyundai Kona – 1399 kg without passengers or fuel (5 adult capacity).
BMW i3 – 1343 kg without passengers or fuel (5 adult capacity)

Last edited 3 months ago by Bryan A
mcswelll
Reply to  Bryan A
April 22, 2021 7:10 am

For the EVs, you quote weight “without passengers or fuel”. I get the passengers (and I suspect the ICEs are the same, without passengers), but what’s with the “without…fuel” for the EVs? Electrons don’t weigh much…

Bryan A
Reply to  mcswelll
April 22, 2021 9:14 am

Absolutely
Curb Weight just means vehicle weight without potential additional weights.
EVs have less additional weight factors between Curb Weight and Gross Weight because Electrons add nothing additional
But at only 6.3 pounds per gallon fuel weight is only 63 – 126 lbs per tank in the average ICE.

Last edited 3 months ago by Bryan A
ATheoK
Reply to  Bryan A
April 22, 2021 2:35 pm

Which points out that even the eggshell tiny EV vehicles are the weight of a large ICE car. Without the capabilities of large cars.

According to you, Model X and the Teslas are equivalent to large trucks and SUVs.

Except, “Large Trucks”, say the Chevrolet 3500 weigh 7,048 pounds (3197 kg).
They also tow up to 13,700 pounds or can haul 3,952 pounds.

The bottom line of full sized trucks, say the Chevrolet 1500 weighs 4,520 pounds (2050 kg), can tow 7,790 pounds or carry 2,280 pounds.

Making the Teslas and Model X heavier than regular full size trucks, the majority of trucks on roads are baseline models.

Keep in mind that trucks have unique license plates that identify the rate at which tolls are charged. i.e. bigger trucks pay more. Not only fir fuel, but at every toll station.

Duane
Reply to  ATheoK
April 22, 2021 7:30 pm

Bullsheet. A Tesla Model 3 sedan weighs either the same as the equivalent capacity and performance Toyota Camry V-6, or only 8% more if the long range battery pack. That does not even register in the noise level, literally, in road pavement lifetime calculations which are solely determined by the frequency of vastly heavier standard H20 semi tractor trailer axle loadings.

John Bruce
Reply to  Bryan A
April 22, 2021 6:37 pm

This hasn’t taken into account the number of construction trucks to make the new power grid and transformer yards 4-6 times larger to cater for the increased power for the new charging stations plus the thousands of trucks to build the new wind and solar farms with the ever increasing roads required to service this infrastructure

Duane
Reply to  John Bruce
April 22, 2021 7:32 pm

No new grids are needed. EVs are mostly charged at night when electrical demands are far lower than during the peak demand hours during daytime.

Mark
Reply to  Duane
April 23, 2021 10:20 pm

You can’t possible expect us to believe that! Do not electric get charge after the morning trip to work. My golf cart does, its plug in after every trip and the first trip occurs to the dog park in the morning with the second trip the dog park in the evening. The truth of the matter the grid capacity will have to increase by nearly double, you really need to quit believing the lying media.

Last edited 3 months ago by Mark
ResourceGuy
Reply to  Duane
April 24, 2021 3:21 pm

Solar plus storage systems will meet normal demand into early evening but then what? And I’m not asking when EVs are at 1% of the market but at 20% or 30%.

Bryan A
Reply to  John Bruce
April 22, 2021 9:12 pm

Nor the Tenfold increase in Copper mining or the perhaps thirtyfold increase in Cobalt and Lithium mining to build the 1000lb EV fuel tanks and that is just for the Vehicle Production

John Klug
Reply to  Bryan A
April 22, 2021 7:09 pm

After Biden destroys the economy, I think this will be all we can afford (all of 17.4HP):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuling_Hongguang_Mini_EV

665kG.

So much for those green new jobs. Cleaning guano off of solar panels, and buying cars from China.

Last edited 3 months ago by John Klug
RobK
Reply to  H B
April 22, 2021 7:04 am

Yes, road wear is a cubed function of axle weight. If the kWh expended were taxed it would be more in line with ICE cars and closer to a reflection of the wear. Energy expended would be a better proxy than distance travelled. The data for each would be in the memory of the vehicles anyway.

menace
Reply to  RobK
April 22, 2021 10:59 am

Road wear from cars is negligible compared with trucks, freeze/thaw cycles, and salt. CA is lucky that most of their roads don’t have to worry about the latter two factors.

If anything CA fuel use taxes should be lower but I think they must waste a lot of money subsidizing public trans and now the costly efforts to make charging stations ubiquitous.

All paid for by ICE fuel taxes. So are they going to implement an EV-only mileage tax to make up the fuel tax shortfalls after the ICE bans? Or will they double-punish the ICE users to have to pay both taxes.

chemman
Reply to  menace
April 22, 2021 1:09 pm

You know they’ll double punish the ICE users. Governments almost never stop a tax once it has started.

Duane
Reply to  RobK
April 22, 2021 7:33 pm

Nope – that is a fake bullsheet non-existent relationship, put forward by ignorant non engineers.

Duane
Reply to  H B
April 22, 2021 7:27 pm

Bullsheet. There is no such relationship. Road pavement design is strictly determined by the frequency of H20 (heavy semi tractor trailer) axle loadings. An infinite number of automobile and light truck or van axle loadings has zero effect on pavement life.

Mark
Reply to  Duane
April 23, 2021 10:25 pm

That pure BS the city streets I travel on daily have a huge truck traffic, not the light vehicle other than public transportation buses out number trucks a hundred to one.

Shytot
Reply to  fretslider
April 22, 2021 5:20 am

The main “buyers” in the UK are company car owners because it is tax efficient from a benefits in kind perspective.
As you say, the when diesel was the darling the same pattern was followed.
Once we start paying for this panic demic EVs will no doubt lose their tax efficiency.

Patrick MJD
Reply to  fretslider
April 22, 2021 6:25 am

To be fair, in the UK any vehicle over a certain age pays not road tax either and does not need an MOT too. So your 1958 Landrover is OK!

Notanacademic
Reply to  Patrick MJD
April 22, 2021 12:58 pm

I was aware of the road tax exemption( last time I looked I think it was for vehicles over 25 years old) but I did not know about MOT exemption. At what age does MOT exemption apply?

Patrick MJD
Reply to  Notanacademic
April 22, 2021 9:13 pm

IIRC it’s a lot older than 25 years, I think it’s cars that are exempt from seat belts, 50 years+. With Landrovers that’s easy to achieve but I would not want to drive a 1958 LR that did not need an MOT (They are only good on the day they are tested in reality), they are bad enough with one.

commieBob
Reply to  Bill Toland
April 22, 2021 5:00 am

Almost all EVs and hybrids are small sedans. Everyone else seems to drive huge SUVs and pickup trucks. So, if we’re being fair, we should compare the EVs with what would be on the road otherwise.

The heaviest Tesla is 2459 kg and the heaviest Ford F150 is 2274 kg. So, a not very large Tesla sedan can still weigh more than a giant pickup truck.

Michael Jankowski
Reply to  commieBob
April 22, 2021 3:52 pm

There are plenty of EVs and hybrids that are SUVs and not small sedans. Don’t know anyone who wanted a huge SUV or pickup but got a Tesla instead. The vast majority of huge SUV and pickup folks have reasons to buy a huge SUV or a pickup.

I own a Prius hybrid. If I owned an ICE, it would be a Carolla hatchback, not a huge SUV or pickup. But speaking of the Carolla, I just checked the hybrid LE version vs the ICE LE version…hybrid is 105 lbs lighter. Funny that.

Pickup trucks are often carrying some sort of load. They can easily way more than a Tesla with regularity. Nonsensical comparison.

Instead of comparing a Tesla with an F-150, why didn’t you compare an F-150 with an F-150 hybrid?

commieBob
Reply to  Michael Jankowski
April 22, 2021 5:59 pm

Nonsensical comparison.

Not really. A lot of those pickup trucks are priced well into luxury vehicle territory. I’m guessing that the majority of Ford F150s never go on a construction site in their entire lives.

Anyway, I was bending over backwards to be as fair as possible. Even if you compare a Tesla with something heavy the Tesla is still heavier.

My reply was to Bill Toland’s remark:

Since electric cars weigh more than their equivalent petrol cars …

As far as I can tell, he’s right. The batteries required for a fully electric vehicle make it very heavy.

Hybrids are another kettle of fish entirely. The gas engine is small and designed for efficiency. The battery is small. The electric motor, for its weight, is rather powerful. So, you get acceptable acceleration for a brief period with an overall lighter propulsion system.

Mark
Reply to  commieBob
April 23, 2021 10:41 pm

I have driven pickup truck all my life I did put 405,000 mile on a Chevy Nova(Toyota Corolla) . I own small truck because the Nova could not have carried the nearly a ton of plaster to the dump my wife loaded onto my Ford Ranger. Ditto for the firewood I once hauled. Good luck pulling anything with a EV. Even my present truck mileage is cut in half either puling the boat or the UTV.

I live in Arizona and once had a women tell me we have a camper and now it sits in storage since the van here in Arizona cannot pull it! Yet the van had no problem pulling it in Indiana. Somehow in Indian you did not need to climb to from 1800 ft to 4500, back down and than up again with the final climb to 7000 ft.

EV batteries also don’t like the heat of Arizona or the cold of North Dakota and Northern Minnesota place my present pickup has been. in 2020 January the first morning in North Dakota it was -8 F. When I liven in North Dakota one time in Fargo in 1987 we went 72 hours with the temperature not getting above -22 god luck driving a EV in that. That Chevy Nova was hard pressed to stay warm in that weather, idling it could not keep the passenger compartment warm.

Duane
Reply to  commieBob
April 22, 2021 7:36 pm

Bullsheet. A Tesla Model 3 sedan is equivalent in size, capacity, and performance as a Toyota Camry V-6 sedan. They weigh either exactly the same (standard battery) or only slightly (8%) more, at 3,500 lb or 3,800 lb.

commieBob
Reply to  Duane
April 22, 2021 8:04 pm

I was clear about what I was comparing … the heaviest Tesla … the heaviest Ford F150. I am a fan of neither.

Sara
Reply to  Bill Toland
April 22, 2021 6:00 am

There does seem to be some interest in investing in “green companies”, per this article, but it almost appears to be a bubble.
https://www.schwab.com/resource-center/insights/content/next-bubble?cmp=em-QYB
It has looked like a fad from the start to me, and if it is forming a bubble, that will be no surprise. Like other previous bubbles in investing (tulips, anyone?) it will likely expand like any other fad and then die back when the “green machine” doesn’t prove profitable.
I’d take the attitude that the electric vehicle business is a fad, and just not put money into buying one.
And if (BIg IF) the Greenies ever realize that most of the products they rely on are petroleum derivatives, and not the “green, clean” stuff they adore, the bubble will pop and deflate, and likely rather quickly.
Not saying EVs are not here to stay. They probably are, but if (like me) you’d have to drive 5 miles just to charge the battery, when a gas station is considerably closer and less time consuming, I do believe it will remain the Toy of the Hoi Polloi.

Duane
Reply to  Bill Toland
April 22, 2021 7:24 pm

EVs do not weigh significantly more if any more than iC cars. A Tesla Model 3 is equivalent to a Camry V-6 – and the weights of the Tesla are 3,500 lb (standard battery) to 3,800 lb (long range battery). A Camry V-6 weighs in at 3,500 lb.

Weight related damage on roads only becomes significant at very high axle loading atypical of semi tractor trailer rigs. Car and light truck axle loadings do not even figure in at all in establishing road pavement design life. They do not even register within the noise level of pavement stress factors.

Bill Toland
Reply to  Duane
April 22, 2021 11:09 pm

Even fans of electric cars admit that they are heavier than the equivalent petrol cars. You have deliberately cherry picked the cars that you have compared. How could an electric car not weigh more when the battery weighs half a ton? You are spreading disinformation.

https://www.buyacar.co.uk/cars/economical-cars/electric-cars/651/electric-cars-pros-and-cons

Last edited 3 months ago by Bill Toland
fretslider
April 22, 2021 2:24 am

I was casually looking through the Narrative Driven Media – what most people refer to as the MSM – and The Conversation came up trumps with this nonsense:

Electric cars could make the roads safer – here’s how

Traffic-related fatalities are the eighth leading cause of death for people of all ages – ahead of HIV/AIDS and tuberculosis – and the number one cause of deaths for children and young adults.

Both because of the way they are driven and the mechanics inside them, electric vehicles could play an important role in making our roads safer. Charging an electric car takes longer than filling up a tank of petrol, and a typical full charge won’t get a car as far as a typical full tank.

https://theconversation.com/electric-cars-could-make-the-roads-safer-heres-how-159001

As long as cars are off the road, the roads are, er, safer.

Who’d a thunk it?

In today’s money my ancient degree has to be the equivalent of a Professorship

Last edited 3 months ago by fretslider
John Endicott
Reply to  fretslider
April 22, 2021 2:30 am

In other words “EVs are driven half as much” is a feature not a bug.

Reply to  fretslider
April 22, 2021 3:05 am

HIV/aids?
I thought that has been cured??

Patrick MJD
Reply to  JON P PETERSON
April 22, 2021 5:45 am

If we believe wat we are being told now about “COVID-19”, AIDS causes HIV.

Mark
Reply to  JON P PETERSON
April 23, 2021 10:46 pm

HIV/aids? the victims are still waiting for Fauci vaccine he promised in the 1980s.

saveenergy
Reply to  fretslider
April 22, 2021 3:10 am

“In today’s money my ancient degree has to be the equivalent of a Professorship”

No, a primary school certificate is equivalent !

Alan the Brit
Reply to  saveenergy
April 22, 2021 4:35 am

As a recently retired structural engineer, my experience is that academics think rather lowly of non-academics on the grounds that they are by default superior as they impart knowledge to others lesser beings!!!! This despite being a senior Institution member who help prepare & interview many a young graduate for to their professional examinations! I recall one evening at a semi-official dinner after an evening meeting we took our guest speaker (a lecturer in civil engineering at Cambridge no less) to dinner, he overheard me & another self-employed engineer talking about what holidays we were planning, & Mike & I both said we’d have to wait until the workload eased then grab a last minute deal, said lecturer looked down upon us with disdain by saying “Well now we know what kind of holidays you two like to take!!!” We politely pointed out through gritted teeth that working in the private sector doesn’t always afford such a luxury that academia provides!!! Sadly academia & practicality & practical engineering experience don’t go hand in hand very well!!! AtB 😉

John Endicott
Reply to  Alan the Brit
April 26, 2021 2:37 am

Academics seems to have missed learning the old saying “those who can, do. those who can’t, teach”. 🙂

Ken Burnley
Reply to  fretslider
April 22, 2021 5:31 am

I expect more fatalities to occur because they are so quiet – I was almost knocked over recently by one being driven out of a narrow, hedge-lined driveway as I walked past. I think they are supposed to be fitted with some kind of noise-warning, but only when being reversed?

Jit
Reply to  Ken Burnley
April 22, 2021 9:54 am

The EU regulation is for artificial noise to be generated in reverse and forwards up to 20 km/h at which point road noise should be loud enough.

It enters into force in July, but new EVs will have it. I guess the UK is keeping the rule.

Spetzer86
Reply to  fretslider
April 22, 2021 5:42 am

I’ve been maintaining for years that the primary goal of many Green initiatives is to reduce travel and keep people closer to home. Covid have driven this trend to the extreme, but the underlying goal still seems to be the same. Stay where you are. Only travel limited distances.

Pamela Matlack-Klein
Reply to  Spetzer86
April 22, 2021 8:16 am

Humans have always been travelers, it’s part of the human constitution. Throughout history it was nothing for people to wander great distances from their homes on pilgrimages or for trade, to wage war, or find a nicer place to live. We still enjoy wandering around for fun.

commieBob
Reply to  Pamela Matlack-Klein
April 22, 2021 12:50 pm

As far as I can tell, exploration is a survival skill. Even other critters explore.

Cats also roam because they like to keep themselves up to date with the environment in which they live. That way, they can make predictions about possible threats to their safety and territory, and know where to hide if they are threatened by another cat,

link

Reply to  Pamela Matlack-Klein
April 22, 2021 1:59 pm

Pamela,
It might be said that –
Some humans have always been travellers . . .

Societies vary – considerably – over time and space.
Many of us do indeed enjoy wandering around, for fun or work or whatever

But not all though.

Auto

Kenji
Reply to  Spetzer86
April 22, 2021 9:55 am

Well … In British Columbia … you are forbidden to travel further than the distance of your local Health Authority.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/covid-19-update-april-19-1.5993151

A totalitarian edict simply made-for EV’s

David Hartley
Reply to  Kenji
April 22, 2021 12:30 pm

It’s like the Poor Laws of the UK when you were forbidden to move from the Parish supporting you to another and of course the infamous Apartheid Pass laws of South Africa.

Isn’t the breakneck speed of Human development breath-taking.

image_2021-04-22_202921.png
chemman
Reply to  Kenji
April 22, 2021 1:15 pm

So if the local Health Authority is closer than the local grocery store can’t drive to the grocery store. I guess that’s one way to lose weight.

RMT
Reply to  Spetzer86
April 23, 2021 10:30 pm

Yes, the Democrats want people out of their cars – because cars mean freedom, which is antithetical to what the Democrats want for those whom they rule over.

Rusty
Reply to  fretslider
April 22, 2021 7:19 am

EVs are almost silent and they weigh far more than ICE vehicles so they will be harder to hear and hit harder when there is a crash or accident with a pedestrian.

RMT
Reply to  Rusty
April 23, 2021 10:31 pm

They are hazardous to the blind who need to cross streets on occasion.

starzmom
Reply to  fretslider
April 22, 2021 7:33 am

If I have to have an accident, I prefer it be in a ICE vehicle, not a Tesla like the one that burned to a crisp last week. I might have a fighting chance of survival.

Kenji
Reply to  fretslider
April 22, 2021 9:50 am

Just imagine all the nasty freedom of movement can be ended by EV’s !? However … remember plebes … you MUST wear a mask during all recharging activities. Yes, even if you’ve been vaccinated. Yes, a double mask is preferred.

chemman
Reply to  Kenji
April 22, 2021 1:16 pm

And don’t forget to install the methane capture device at the other end of the tube.

Mark
Reply to  fretslider
April 23, 2021 10:45 pm

That was the same with the “energy shortage in the 1970s speed limits were reduced and deaths went down also. The morons told us that wlower speed were safer, the problem was the morons did not realize that the deaths per mile did not change.

EwinBarnett
April 22, 2021 2:43 am

A few years ago two large hurricanes headed for Florida. I recall that when the second one approached many people attempted to drive north to get out of its path. Any attempt to do so with EVs would be a death trap because there would be no way to recharge very many at one time. People would be stuck where the the battery ran dry. The same could be said when California had massive wildfires and fleeing drivers clogged the highways. I will drive old cars rather than be forced to be dependent upon an EV as my primary vehicle.

Last edited 3 months ago by EwinBarnett
cerescokid
Reply to  EwinBarnett
April 22, 2021 3:10 am

Good examples of why instant access to our vehicles is so important. I’m sure everyone can think of other times in their own circumstances when not being able to leave on a second’s notice will be a pain. Other situations also make the charging issue a challenge. We drive 1,000 miles to Florida each year. It’s a 2 day trip. A fill up takes 5 minutes. Who wants to sit around for longer than 5 minutes while driving on long trips.

As the article said, they will be for short trips. Since I’m 3 miles from 5 grocery stores, that would be it for me.

Pamela Matlack-Klein
Reply to  cerescokid
April 22, 2021 4:35 am

EV are very costly candidates for second cars. Plus the added concern about fire hazard from the battery. I’ll stick to my slightly aged but reliable Mercedes diesel estate car with its huge range.

rovingbroker
Reply to  Pamela Matlack-Klein
April 22, 2021 6:58 am

I had a Mercedes Diesel. Finding fuel for long trips (at truck stops) was easy. Around town, not so much. Funny thing was that I bought it during a “gasoline crisis” when gasoline was scarce and diesel was plentiful.

The only constant is change.

chemman
Reply to  rovingbroker
April 22, 2021 1:19 pm

Not sure where you live but nearly every fuel station in the rural area I live in has dual pumps. So you can either get gasoline or diesel

ATheoK
Reply to  chemman
April 22, 2021 2:53 pm

I’m in Virginia right on the I95 corridor.

Diesel sellers within thirty miles can be counted on one hand missing several fingers.

Diesel for off road vehicles, like tractors is only available at one location 12 miles away.

Many areas around the country are void of diesel pumps. Especially as many farmers and businesses that rely upon diesel purchase large storage tank loads.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  chemman
April 22, 2021 4:45 pm

Not so here in Kansas. Most don’t have diesel. Not even Sam’s club.

John Endicott
Reply to  chemman
April 23, 2021 3:57 am

In my neck of the woods (suburban area), most stations have somewhere around 1 diesel pump for every 4 or 5 gasoline pumps (I rarely see anyone using the diesel pump).

rovingbroker
Reply to  chemman
April 25, 2021 6:04 pm

Diesel at “nearly every fuel station” is unique to rural “gas” stations and freeway interchanges. Diesel is rare in suburban USA “gas” stations — but there is plenty of beer and wine and some of the world’s worst pizza.

Michael Jankowski
Reply to  cerescokid
April 22, 2021 7:02 am

You take 2 days to drive 1,000 miles when you could fly in a matter of hours…but stopping for longer than 5 minutes is unbearable? Lol.

renbutler
Reply to  Michael Jankowski
April 22, 2021 7:56 am

You failed to take cost into account. You introduced a massive variable and then glossed right over it.

Reply to  Michael Jankowski
April 22, 2021 8:43 am

Try it sometime. You might (although I do doubt it) realize that there are HUMANS in “flyover country.”

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Michael Jankowski
April 22, 2021 8:56 am

Fly from Kanas City to Denver and you miss getting to see all kinds of sites, like the Cathedral of the Plains near Hays, KS or the Constitution Hall in Lecompton, KS. And don’t forget the OZ Museum in Wamego, KS or the High Plains Museum in Goodland, KS. Or Glenwood Canyon in Colorado with its clear mountain stream running alongside. Or the Eisenhower Tunnel under the continental divide (a little past Denver).

ATheoK
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 22, 2021 3:12 pm

They would especially miss the sights of the real plains and the approach to the mountains. They’d especially miss seeing “Purple Mountains Majesty” grow into the mountains preceding Denver and the reverse.

A Look back across the plains as one drives higher in elevation. Truly breathtaking astounding views in both directions.

RMT
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 23, 2021 10:33 pm

I agree about seeing the sights, but the Eisenhower Tunnel and Glenwood Canyon are West of Denver and thus wouldn’t be on the road to KC.

Last edited 3 months ago by RMT
Michael 63
Reply to  Michael Jankowski
April 22, 2021 9:08 am

Also if you drive in your own car then you won’t have to rent a car at your destination. That may be a significant cost reduction.
Only applies if you need a car at your destination of course.

Sara
Reply to  Michael Jankowski
April 22, 2021 10:06 am

Let’s include stopping at some of the really, really good restaurants where the truckers go for the best food, taking the time to stop and get some bodacious photos of the scenery, near and far and especially at lookout spots, and having a chance to watch migrating geese and ducks in the Spring and Fall.

You don’t get those things in a plane.

Drake
Reply to  Sara
April 24, 2021 4:41 pm

Sometimes you do see geese in a plane. If your luck is just right you may end up landing on the Hudson River.

Just ask Scully.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Michael Jankowski
April 22, 2021 3:37 pm

It’s hard to see all the interesting spots between home and your destination from the air. If you are going to multiple destinations via a circuitous route, you definitely need to drive. Also, if you take a bicycle, photographic equipment and other large personal items, it’s very difficult and expensive to fly.

Abolition Man
Reply to  Michael Jankowski
April 22, 2021 5:17 pm

What a stupid, narrow minded statement!
Perhaps they enjoy outdoor activities like fishing or skindiving! Maybe there are nice parks and campgrounds enroute that are fun to stop at for a few hours or a night!
I spent most of my vacations as a lad backpacking, but started car camping as I got older and wanted to visit more national parks and monuments! A medium-sized truck or SUV can carry all the equipment needed for 4 or 5 people, including a complete outdoor kitchen, shelter and furniture! A small travel- or tent trailer provides even more ease and comfort. Try towing a small trailer up into the hills with your EV!
There are too many possibilities available with an ICE vehicle that an EV simply cannot match! You can have your cookie cutter hotel rooms; I prefer the backroads and wide open spaces! And if I get tired of my own cooking I can always try out the restaurant you think is the only option!

The Saint
Reply to  Abolition Man
April 22, 2021 9:42 pm

What is “skindiving?” Is that a new term for skinny dipping?

John Endicott
Reply to  The Saint
April 23, 2021 4:03 am

While google is not your friend, it still doesn’t hurt to use it or another search engine when you see a word or phase you are unfamiliar with;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skindiving
Skindiving may refer to:

  • Free-diving, or breath-hold underwater diving
  • Scuba diving, as distinct from the use of standard diving dress (old usage dating from before drysuits and wetsuits were commonly available)
  • “Skindiving”, a song by James, in the album Laid
Mark
Reply to  Michael Jankowski
April 23, 2021 10:53 pm

You can drive 300 miles quicker than flying and when you get there you have transportation to get you around. Somehow I do not think and EV will get you from Phoenix to Las Vegas in 110 F heat without a charge in between and after you get out of Phoenix the close changing station will be Kingman nearly at the end of the range of an EV in that heat.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Mark
April 24, 2021 8:46 am

The east coast and west coast Democrat Greenies have absolutely no idea how the rest of us live.

Drake
Reply to  Mark
April 24, 2021 4:47 pm

At the McDs. I have seen Teslas charging there when stopped with my 5th wheel getting lunch while driving from LV to Tucson or back.

They are there when we get there, and there when we leave. Usually sitting in their EV on their electronic device.

Speed
Reply to  EwinBarnett
April 22, 2021 3:26 am

The problem is not availability of power or open roads. The problem is that people think it is a good idea to live where hurricanes can kill them and otherwise ruin their lives. At least Dorothy (Wizard of Oz) had a tornado shelter — although she chose to save her dog rather than take shelter.

Michael Jankowski
Reply to  Speed
April 22, 2021 7:06 am

How many Americans are killed by hurricanes each year? Good Lord. There are natural disasters and/or climate-related threats to life to be had everywhere.

You’re just mad at Dorothy because she killed your mom with a bucket of water.

Frederick Michael
Reply to  Michael Jankowski
April 22, 2021 10:04 am

That is the funniest comment I’ve read in at least a year.

rovingbroker
Reply to  Michael Jankowski
April 22, 2021 5:02 pm

Michael Jankowski asked, “How many Americans are killed by hurricanes each year?”

Hurricanes you may have heard of …
o Hurricane Maria (2017) – the estimated death toll is around 5,000.
o Hurricane Katrina (2005) – the death toll is 1,833. Tens and thousands of people were displaced

Hurricanes before my (and likely your) time …

  • The Great Galveston Storm (1900) – the estimated death toll is from 8,000 to 12,000.
  • The Okeechobee Hurricane (1928) – the estimated death toll is around 3,000.

More here:
https://comparecamp.com/hurricanes-statistics/#2

Abolition Man
Reply to  Michael Jankowski
April 22, 2021 5:42 pm

Good recovery from your previous comment! Now I feel bad for being too critical!
It’s easy to build homes that are hurricane resistant! Hip roofs with little or no overhang, modern structural bracing and CMU or concrete construction are just some of the innovations that have helped save lives and prevent damage in hurricane zones.
I don’t understand why more innovation isn’t used for homes in Tornado Alley? Seems like a house of insulated concrete set 4-6 feet into the ground would be highly resistant to tornado damage! Berm up to the walls and have you patio on the roof, and the house would be easy to heat and cool!
Deaths due to natural disasters could drop even more if we weren’t wasting money on silly fears of the weather!

John Endicott
Reply to  Michael Jankowski
April 23, 2021 4:06 am

And she stole his aunt’s ruby slippers after dropping a house on her! That Dorothy was a thief and a serial killer 😉

starzmom
Reply to  Speed
April 22, 2021 7:36 am

But Dorothy got an excellent adventure out of it. I can’t imagine fleeing an erratic hurricane with 5 million other people would be much of an adventure, and not excellent, either.

Tomsa
Reply to  starzmom
April 22, 2021 10:19 am

And it’s not just fleeing it’s getting back home afterwards. We got caught in returning traffic to FL after Hurricane Irma. Our trip from GA to central FL took much longer than it should have

Mike
Reply to  EwinBarnett
April 22, 2021 4:58 am

Every morning EV owners wake up to 300 or more miles of range. We charge overnight at home. If there is an emergency we are ready. Most gas cars are not filled up every night. And when the power goes out, gas pumps don’t work.

saveenergy
Reply to  Mike
April 22, 2021 5:28 am

“Most gas cars are not filled up every night. And when the power goes out, gas pumps don’t work.”

I never have less than half a tank, & when the power goes out I can always top up from a Jerry can.
How many extra kWhs can you carry in a battery the size of a Jerry can ??

In an emergency you can always jury-rig a hand pump to get fuel out of an underground tank … how much energy can you get from a blacked out grid ??

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Mike
April 22, 2021 5:43 am

Judas Priest! Where do you live? In the colder climes you *always* want to keep a full tank in order to lessen water condensation which wreaks havoc on the fuel system, the engine, and the exhaust system. We *always* refuel our cars at 3/4 full. That *habit* carries over into the warmer months.

chemman
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 22, 2021 1:24 pm

I do to.

ATheoK
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 22, 2021 3:19 pm

Where half of that alleged 300 miles goes to keep the driver warm and entertained; i.e. strictly in the flatlands. Less in mountainous areas.
And that alleged distance is only when the battery is brand spanking new, and carefully charged.

Mayor of Venus
Reply to  ATheoK
April 22, 2021 10:42 pm

Exactly! The distance decreases as the EV ages. Recently my daughter was a passenger on an EV several years old, planned destination and return about 50 miles. The EV owner had to plan in advance where he could charge near the destination. That took some time to get enough charge to drive to a better charging station to get enough to drive home. Both stops took substantial time….plan to bring reading material. Aging batteries hold less and less charge….Who Knew!

Spetzer86
Reply to  Mike
April 22, 2021 5:44 am

Might be particularly entertaining if they ever implement the Smart Grid and start draining a “little” off the top of those charged batteries.

Fraizer
Reply to  Mike
April 22, 2021 5:48 am

Because you EV charges so well when the power is out.

Patrick MJD
Reply to  Fraizer
April 22, 2021 6:29 am

Now ‘cmon, solar works at night and wind works when there is no wind. It is proven.

Bryan A
Reply to  Mike
April 22, 2021 6:26 am

I recall reading that if you drive your EV about 10-20% off it’s range then “Top it Off” every night it actually decreases the battery efficiency and lifetime. EVs shouldn’t be recharged until they’re about 80%+ depleted to maintaining battery expectations

mcswelll
Reply to  Bryan A
April 22, 2021 7:16 am

You’re thinking of NiCd batteries when you say they shouldn’t be recharged until 80% depletion–they had a “a memory effect”. Lithium-ion batteries do better with a partial cycle rather than a deep discharge, no memory effect.

Meab
Reply to  mcswelll
April 22, 2021 8:28 am

True, but the hardest two things on a Li-ion EV battery are leaving it with a full charge and drawing it down to a full discharge. They last much longer if cycled between 80 and 20 percent. It’s a really bad idea to top off your EV every night.

JEHILL
Reply to  Mike
April 22, 2021 7:15 am

@Mike

That is a real time calculated number based on the amount of charge in the battery and chaging conditions. Will anyone being charging a phone or any other device? Will the volume of your stereo remain a constant? Will you have constant speed with limited to no high acceleration events?

Remember Apollo 13? They only had the electricity they could carried with them. That’s it.

You would need to drive to directly to another charging station within the stated 300 theoretical mile range, preferably 200 to 250 miles away and wait another 0.5 hours to eight hours to continue. Hopefully that wildfire or earthquake you are running from does not leave your egressing FOB charging station dry. Furthermore, you are stuck to driving on the same highway where all the other flesh eating zombies will be fighting for the same but very limited resource. What has history taught humans about humans in that situation? We tend to go primal and animalistic quickly i.e. zombies.

It seems to me that you have little to no understanding of conservation of mass and energy. Coupled with a potentially poor understanding of human nature. A dangerous combination of ignorance, arrogance and hubris.

Michael Jankowski
Reply to  Mike
April 22, 2021 7:17 am

Most EV models don’t have “300 miles or more” of range in the first place.

In your world, power never goes off at night, and emergencies only happen after sunrise?

Meab
Reply to  Mike
April 22, 2021 8:34 am

I’m guessing that you don’t know that, by law, service stations must have a backup generator in most states that are at a high risk of a hurricane. As long as they have gas available they can pump it.

Joel O'Bryan
Reply to  Mike
April 22, 2021 9:28 am

Charged overnight on fossil fuel generated electricity.

DonK31
Reply to  Mike
April 22, 2021 9:55 am

Mike plugs his EV into the solar panels every night when he gets home from work.

Sara
Reply to  Mike
April 22, 2021 10:09 am

Well, MIKE, considering that I can drive 42 miles on a single gallon of gas and not have to stop at the pump to refill for about a week, unless I’m really buzzing over to the forest preserves with a camera, I think the carbon-powered vehicle beats the volts-powered deal by at least a country mile.

R_G
Reply to  Mike
April 22, 2021 6:51 pm

Most of those 300 + miles is only when you drive at very low speed and at ideal atmospheric conditions. Try to do it in Germany on authbahn when you have to go well above 120 km/hr and when it rains and your 300+ miles shrinks to 100 + miles really quick.

John Endicott
Reply to  Mike
April 23, 2021 4:28 am

Lots of bad assumptions there Mike.

“every morning EV owners wake up to 300 or mile of range”
1) Most EVs don’t even promise anything near 300 miles of range. And even those that do, only provide that range under “perfect” conditions (ie pleasant weather, no use of the radio, heater, AC, or other features of the car, etc)
2) Not everyone lives in a home where they can park their car next to an outlet and plug in their EV at night. Many people live in apartments without such luxuries.
3) even ignoring 1 & 2, what happens when it’s near the end of the day, after you’ve used up 90+% of your daily charge when you suddenly have to evacuate due to a natural disaster (Earthquake, Forest Fire, or other unexpected disaster)? You’re not going to travel very far before you’re out of charge, and it’ll take you a good amount of time to charge up assuming you can find a charging station where the power hasn’t been knocked out, and even if you do, you’ll be competing with every other EV driver in the same situation you’ve left yourself in, with each needing a good long while to charge making a bad situation even worse.

“Most gas cars are not filled up overnight”
Nor do they need to be. It’s easy and quick to refill a gasoline powered car. Even if the power is out (and thus electric powered gas pumps are out of action), a jerry can is capable of giving you enough go-juice to quickly get going, and even without power there are ways of extracting the gas out of storage tanks without power (as others pointed out) if you really need to. Try extracting electricity out of the grid when the power is out!

RMT
Reply to  Mike
April 23, 2021 10:36 pm

That works well for those who have homes. What about all of those apartment dwellers or those who live in high rise condos who don’t have access to electricity all night for their car. Pretty elitist comment there Mike.

Scissor
Reply to  EwinBarnett
April 22, 2021 5:02 am

No worries, the highway patrol can pick them up with their EV buses. Oh wait.

Of course you are right, Ewin. Along the Gulf Coast especially, with inherent nature of storms and benefits of their existing oil & gas and refining infrastructure, EVs make hardly no sense at all there.

The decisions coming out of Florida these days seem to be made with common sense. Outlawing ICE vehicles in Florida doesn’t seem likely any time soon.

Jeff Meyer
Reply to  EwinBarnett
April 22, 2021 6:17 am

Will it be like Cuba?

ATheoK
Reply to  Jeff Meyer
April 22, 2021 3:25 pm

You mean California?

I was thinking along those lines when reading the article, also.

Tom Kennedy
Reply to  EwinBarnett
April 23, 2021 3:58 am

When Hurricane Irma hit the Keys several years ago, my friend struggled to get out in a gasoline vehicle. He saw fist fights at gas stations for gasoline. If EVs could find a recharging station it would be a nightmare.

Ron Long
April 22, 2021 2:55 am

This report points out the problem with EV’s versus conventional petrol vehicles, EV’s are for limited, inner-city second vehicles and real cars are for the rest. Try driving an EV over the large mountains in the winter during a snowstorm and Darwin’s Selection of the Species deal will kick in.

Speed
Reply to  Ron Long
April 22, 2021 3:38 am

Try driving a tractor-trailer over the large mountains in the winter during a snowstorm and Darwin will get you too.

Matthew Bergin
Reply to  Speed
April 22, 2021 4:12 am

My son does that, with his truck every day and he has never met Darwin.🤷‍♂️

rovingbroker
Reply to  Matthew Bergin
April 22, 2021 5:04 pm

Where is it winter every day?

rah
Reply to  Speed
April 22, 2021 5:52 am

He hasn’t gotten me! And it doesn’t take a “large mountain”. The relatively low “Cabbage” (on the map it’s labeled “immigrant hill”) on I-84 in Oregon is notoriously treacherous in any weather.

Years ago teaming my young partner was driving but I stayed up because I knew we were going over the Cabbage headed east and it would be his first time tackling those hair pin turns. I noticed a couple trucks in the chain up area as we approached the hill but the lights weren’t flashing indicating chains required so we went on by.

Nearing the summit all traffic stopped in both lanes. When we stopped our trailer slid sideways to within a foot of the trailer beside us. Everyone had stopped to chain up. It got that bad that quickly.

John Endicott
Reply to  Speed
April 23, 2021 4:37 am

You do realize, actual truck drivers do so every winter and manage to survive just fine. And they, with all their experience doing so, would be extremely leery about trying it in an EV. In situations like that you need the equipment to be capable of handling the job. EVs simple don’t qualify as being capable of handling that job.

Mike
Reply to  Ron Long
April 22, 2021 5:00 am

Driving up a mountain in a snowstorm will reduce EV range by 1/3. On your way down on the other side you will gain much of this back. Gas cars use more gas driving up a mountain. But they can’t gain any of it back on the way down.

Jeroen B.
Reply to  Mike
April 22, 2021 5:20 am

Can I introduce you to the concept of the transmission, which has a feature called “neutral” which lets a vehicle roll without drag of its drivetrain.
Secondly, your EV will be miserably cold while trying to drive up that mountain because to get “just” a 1/3rd mileage reduction you’ll have to turn off that heater – the ICE vehicle can recycle the heat from its engine to make its passengers more comfortable.
Lastly, when the EV gets stuck without charge it’s there until it can be salvaged/retrieved later. There is no hand carried device that can “refuel” an EV to make it to the next stop.

mcswelll
Reply to  Jeroen B.
April 22, 2021 7:20 am

1) In many locales, it’s illegal to coast in neutral (see the reply here: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/14159/is-it-illegal-in-any-u-s-jurisdiction-to-be-in-neutral-at-a-red-light)
2) Driving down the mountain in neutral does nothing to re-fill the gas tank, which was Mike’s point.

JEHILL
Reply to  mcswelll
April 22, 2021 8:24 am

@mcswelll

@Mike has no point beyond fanboy cheerleading.

Furthermore that forums is about being at a red light and not tacking down a mountain pass. 2nd, how does that square those auto engine cut offs at red lights in quite a few new cars. Pragmatically it is the same as being in neutral. Furthermore, on the off chance you put your car in neutral with a LEO behind who is going to know?

There are also those folks who completely shut the car off at traffic lights. Mythbusters, even had an episode about it.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  JEHILL
April 22, 2021 9:03 am

If you have an automatic transmission and the car is idling you are effectively in neutral because not enough fluid is being pumped to link the engine and the drive train. How many cars pull themselves forward when in idle? None of mine do unless I’m on a downhill slope. They will barely hold their place on an upslope!

ATheoK
Reply to  mcswelll
April 22, 2021 3:39 pm

In neutral at a red light translates to driving down hills?

It’s amazing how clueless the EV religious advocates are.

RMT
Reply to  Jeroen B.
April 23, 2021 10:39 pm

Wait a minute. Are you saying that we can’t bring miles of electric cord to plug in the EV to the nearest outlet in the middle of the country or mountains?

DonK31
Reply to  Mike
April 22, 2021 5:28 am

I drive a VW TSI with a 1.4 liter turbocharged engine. I get better mileage in the mountains, as defined in the East, than I get on flat ground. Through the plains of South GA I get about 39 MPG. Through the hills of North GA and TN I get about 42.

Jim Gorman
Reply to  Mike
April 22, 2021 5:29 am

Do you understand what regen braking does on ice and snow? Try the term skid on for size.

rovingbroker
Reply to  Jim Gorman
April 22, 2021 7:19 am

Why would regen braking be any worse than friction braking. Regen braking is controlled and moderated by the brake pedal just like friction brakes.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  rovingbroker
April 22, 2021 9:08 am

If you have to disable regen braking by releasing the brake pedal in slick conditions then what use is it? And how do you release the brake pedal to stop regen braking while also pressing the brake pedal to engage the anti-lock brake system?

rovingbroker
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 22, 2021 5:19 pm

The EV drive and brake system is very sophisticated. It includes both ABS (brake based and regen-based) and traction control.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  rovingbroker
April 23, 2021 5:43 am

You didn’t answer my question. How do you both simultaneously press and release the brake pedal?

Speed
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 25, 2021 4:19 am

If you take your foot off the gas, and regen braking is enabled (this is driver controlled) it will brake the vehicle. And regen braking includes its own ABS function. Simply, in low traction situations, regen braking will be modulated just like ABS.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Mike
April 22, 2021 5:46 am

If you are driving *down* a mountain in a snowstorm using tire friction to recharge you are living dangerously. Hit a slick spot and you are likely to find yourself off the road – and it the mountains that can mean death.

rah
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 22, 2021 6:00 am

Same for using the engine brake on a semi.

rovingbroker
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 22, 2021 7:20 am

Why would regen braking be any worse than friction braking? Regen braking is controlled and moderated by the brake pedal just like friction brakes.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  rovingbroker
April 22, 2021 9:09 am

How do you let up on the brake pedal to stop regen braking while also pressing hard on the brake pedal to engage the anti-lock braking system?

rovingbroker
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 25, 2021 6:00 pm

They’re integrated. ABS works through both friction brakes and regen braking.

billtoo
Reply to  Mike
April 22, 2021 5:58 am

My F350 shows 99 mpg heading down the front range into denver

Chuck no longer in Houston
Reply to  billtoo
April 22, 2021 2:53 pm

Funny billtoo. My 4wd silverado gets the same amazing gas mileage!

renbutler
Reply to  Mike
April 22, 2021 8:01 am

I once drove a gas-powered rental car from Prescott AZ to Phoenix, and I rolled downhill nearly all the way there. I set the car’s record for fuel mileage over a 50-mile range — better than 50 mpg. It was fun.

Meab
Reply to  Mike
April 22, 2021 8:50 am

You conveniently forgot the range penalty for driving an EV in cold weather which can be up to a 40% reduction all by itself. Add up the penalty for driving uphill, up to 30%, cold weather driving, up to another 40%, a degraded battery, another up to 30% (Tesla won’t fix a battery under warranty until it drops below 70% capacity) and you might not make it to the top of the hill.

Ron Long
Reply to  Mike
April 22, 2021 9:52 am

Mikey, you don’t need to think about going down the other side because you won’t make it to the top. In a snowstorm cars spin out, crash wait for snowplows, run out of gas, etc. Your EV will consume large amounts of electricity trying to run the heater. When the lights go out go knock on the window of an idling petrol run car and see if they let you in. Hint: try not to look like a green when you try to get in.

Drake
Reply to  Mike
April 23, 2021 10:59 am

My diesel PU truck gets 99 MPG (the highest it will show) going down that hill after getting about 1/2 the regular mileage going up the hill. With the new truck engine breaking is standard, although I will not always use it in a snowstorm with slick road conditions unless I have extra weight in the back. So I end up with average mileage overall and little or no reduction of total drive range, and I still have heat, ac, etc.

My 36 gallon factory tank will get me over 700 miles in perfect conditions and will refuel in 10 minutes at a regular pump, 5 minutes at a truck stop with the fast pumps. I got 22.3 MPG for 400 miles (the most the computer will do unless you use the trip odo) in a costal flat area with mostly 55 mph maximum speed.

How about your EV?

Speed
Reply to  Drake
April 25, 2021 3:54 am

An EV uses regenerative braking to charge the battery when going down hill. Better than any gasoline or diesel truck.

Scissor
Reply to  Ron Long
April 22, 2021 5:08 am

Yes, just yesterday I saw a couple of Tesla’s struggling to maneuver the snow on the side streets of Boulder. Low ground clearance makes for difficult driving and parking among ruts and piles of ice and snow.

rovingbroker
Reply to  Scissor
April 22, 2021 7:04 am

Low ground clearance is not unique to Teslas or EVs.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  rovingbroker
April 22, 2021 9:10 am

And those cars also have problems negotiating snow on the side streets. Try it with a Corvette sometime.

ATheoK
Reply to  rovingbroker
April 22, 2021 3:49 pm

Sound like you think Los Angeles low riders are common on highways and mountainous areas…

Corvette owners frequently refuse to drive their vehicles all winter.

Low clearance vehicles that regularly drive snowy highways and mountains frequently have hydraulic control of their height.

Got any of that on EVs?

ResourceGuy
Reply to  Ron Long
April 22, 2021 8:09 am

EVs sales will be highly correlated with the voting maps for Dems with large cities dominating elections and telling the outer districts how to act.

Drake
Reply to  ResourceGuy
April 24, 2021 5:16 pm

And to subsidize their choice of EVs.

ATheoK
Reply to  Ron Long
April 22, 2021 3:33 pm

Or even head for Las Vegas one fine summer day in summer.

Across the Mohave. Even not using their AC they likely won’t make Las Vegas from Bakersfield.

John Endicott
Reply to  ATheoK
April 23, 2021 4:45 am

On a really hot day, without the AC they likely won’t make it regardless of the car they drive 😉

Speed
April 22, 2021 3:18 am

There was a time in my life when I was commuting 90 miles (round trip) four days and 145 miles (round trip) one day each week. High mileage commuting that would have been perfect for an EV with in-home charging. 25,000 miles per year using no gasoline would have been convenient and economical.

Another challenge for the EV growth is the EV charging dependence on intermittent electricity from wind and solar.

Gasoline pumps require electricity too.

Batteries will get better. Chargers will get faster and more common. Nuclear power generation will become the standard. The only constant is change.

Sean
Reply to  Speed
April 22, 2021 3:36 am

California will shut down its last nuclear power plant in a year. However, They often have excess solar power midday. Will people have to charge up at work? California imports 70% of its energy. How much renewable power will have to be drawn from neighboring states to keep the state’s green virtue intact?

rovingbroker
Reply to  Sean
April 22, 2021 7:11 am

Is your point that the electric grid will be “empty” (effectively turned-off) at night? The recent Texas debacle has generated lots of solid data about unreliability of “renewable” power.

Change often requires and follows disaster.

Mike Lowe
Reply to  Sean
April 22, 2021 1:03 pm

There should be no such thing as importing electricity from nearby states. It may work in the short term when politicians are trying to justify their decisions, but when a region-wide shortage occurs your neighbour will not have any surplus to supply. Wasn’t that the very situation in the isolated Texas grid?

Chuck no longer in Houston
Reply to  Mike Lowe
April 22, 2021 3:04 pm

Although we actually did have an interconnect (to Oklahoma I think) there wasn’t anything available there as they were dealing with their own problems.

billtoo
Reply to  Speed
April 22, 2021 4:48 am

my jerry cans run on gravity

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Speed
April 22, 2021 5:50 am

How will chargers get more common? Are you going to tear up a huge amount of SIDEWALKS AND STREETS in a town like St. Louis in order to provide chargers for all those people living in apartments who have to park on the street? How about in NYC or LA?

Exactly who is going to pay for that?

mcswelll
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 22, 2021 7:22 am

That is an issue. Where I live (Maryland), many parking lots have a few chargers. I expect to see more of them in a few years. Of course this does not address your point about people living in apartments.

Mike Lowe
Reply to  mcswelll
April 22, 2021 1:05 pm

They are very popular with people who prefer not to pay for their fuel!

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  mcswelll
April 22, 2021 3:52 pm

It also doesn’t address the issue when EVs become 10% or more of the vehicles on the road.

rovingbroker
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 22, 2021 7:27 am

Maybe the same people who tore up a huge amount of SIDEWALKS AND STREETS in towns like St. Louis in order to provide natural gas, electricity, telephone, cable and internet. And to remove the streetcar tracks and to install paved streets and freeways office buildings and skyscrapers and railroad tracks and airport runways.

Change is good but never easy.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  rovingbroker
April 22, 2021 9:12 am

All of that was done over time! And the public utilities passed those costs on to the ratepayers.

There ain’t nothing in life that is free. Somebody pays. Somebody *ALWAYS* pays.

Sounds like you simply don’t care about raising the electricity costs for poor people. Most greenies don’t.

DonK31
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 22, 2021 10:00 am

Agree. The bigger question is to whom do you shift the cost.

JEHILL
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 22, 2021 8:31 am

@Tim Gorman

I also want a environmental impact study completed prior to you tearing up said inner city streets and sidewalks.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  JEHILL
April 22, 2021 9:13 am

It won’t be me tearing those up. I say let the market decide who wants to buy an EV. Let the poor people alone.

Drake
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 24, 2021 5:19 pm

People who work and pay taxes will pay for that, you know the MIDDLE CLASS.

Mike Lowe
Reply to  Speed
April 22, 2021 1:00 pm

I note how the Greenies always believe in the wonders of approaching new innovations, which never happen!

TonyG
Reply to  Mike Lowe
April 22, 2021 1:32 pm

It’s always “This is going to happen” or “That will change” (based on no evidence, just wishes), never dealing with what IS right now, today.

rovingbroker
Reply to  TonyG
April 22, 2021 5:08 pm

TonyG wrote, “It’s always “This is going to happen”

Yep. I’m sure that gasoline powered cars will replace horses some day.

John Endicott
Reply to  rovingbroker
April 23, 2021 4:50 am

Problem with you analogy is electric powered cars came first, so it would have been “electric powered cars will replaces horse” only they didn’t, it was the gas powered cars that did so (and also replaced electric powered cars to boot). Learn some history before trying to repeat it.

Speed
Reply to  John Endicott
April 25, 2021 3:59 am

My great aunt actually drove a Baker Electric many years ago. Like many technologies it wasn’t ready yet. Also like many technologies, those that are key to electric cars have improved over time.

rovingbroker
Reply to  Mike Lowe
April 23, 2021 12:05 pm

Re: New innovations that never happened …

Electricity. Telephones. Television. Radio. Airplanes. Internal combustion engines. Satellites. Satellites with people in them. Cell Phones. WiFi. Men on the Moon. Helicopter on Mars. A computer in my pocket. Filmless cameras. Radar. Cardiac Pacemakers. Dental Implants. Artificial joints. Helicopters. Kidney transplants. Open heart surgery. Diagnostic Imaging. Nuclear Energy. mRNA Vaccine. Nuclear Powered Submarines.

I don’t think electric cars are much of a stretch. An interesting question might be, will 5G replace fiber before batteries replace gasoline? Another might be, Which will take over 50% of its market first, Nuclear or wind/sun?

TonyG
Reply to  rovingbroker
April 23, 2021 12:28 pm

You are so vastly missing the point that I can’t believe you aren’t missing it intentionally.

With which of those innovations was anyone totally relying on them to actually happen, BEFORE they happened, in order to set policy or change an industry?

Speed
Reply to  TonyG
April 25, 2021 4:07 am

“Policy” almost never leads innovation. Innovation is usually dragged kicking and screaming through government. That is the nature of government — financed and driven by the entrenched. Example: Amtrak. Example: The Jones Act.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Speed
April 25, 2021 5:17 am

OMG! Yeah, government dragged the light bulb out of Edison. The government dragged the cotton gin out of Whitney. The government dragged the airplane out of the Wrights. The government dragged the Model T out of Ford. The government dragged the telephone out of Graham. The government dragged the vacuum tube out of Fleming and the transistor out of Schockley.

I think you need to learn some history.

rovingbroker
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 25, 2021 3:18 pm

Government generally tries to stop innovation, sometimes because of powerful entrenched interests. Eventually government is overcome, innovation happens and becomes mainstream. Sometimes government then takes credit for it.

It is the way of the world.

chemman
Reply to  Speed
April 22, 2021 1:40 pm

Battery technology will need a major breakthrough to get better.
Modular Nuclear may become standard once all the greenies die off.

ATheoK
Reply to  Speed
April 22, 2021 4:05 pm

No traffic jams?
No accidents forcing alternate routes?

We’ve heard those claims about better batteries for sixty years. Currently, all battery improvements are minor incremental improvements. No game changers in sight.

I commuted over a decade with daily round trips of 160 miles. Co-workers commuted over 200 miles per day.
That’s just the commute, not incidental side trips for errands or visiting businesses during business hours.

25,000 miles per year is not “high mileage”!
Unless you’re an EV advocate with little driving experience.

160 mile commutes are 2 hour commutes each morning and evening.
Added to an 8.5 hour work day that’s 12.5 hours without a charge.
Add in errands, Scouting adventures, Soccer, whatever and several more hours are gone, leaving maybe 8 hours to charge the vehicle…

In an alleged EV world, entire neighborhoods would have upgrade their grids to 240-480 volt rapid charge capability for every EV house.
An impossibility in today’s world.

Nor is there sufficient copper, lithium or cobalt to make the EV advocates version of an EV dream anything more than unicorn fantasies.

Especially as most EV advocates are against nuclear, fossil fuel and hydroelectric electricity generation.

Speed
Reply to  ATheoK
April 25, 2021 4:12 am

“Currently, all battery improvements are minor incremental improvements. No game changers in sight.”

And this is important because the gasoline powered automobile was born by Henry Ford as a reliable, economical, high speed, air-conditioned, air-bagged, seat belted transportation device with satellite radio ABS, and traction control.

Steve Case
April 22, 2021 3:28 am

Short range 2nd cars. You bet, and that’s why I want one. Have you driven one yet? Wow silent, no warmup, no transmission, and absolutely phenomenal performance. If you’ve got a standard SUV and a small electric hatch back and you need to run to the store for something, the electric is going to get the job.

I can imagine that down the road metropolitan areas are going to require that households with more than one vehicle, will require that one must be electric. After a while people living under that regulation will discover that the SUV isn’t driven all that much. Contrary to the title, the electric will be the workhorse. It’s the ideal commuter car.

We’ve required all sorts of pollution controls on cars, and still city air is crappy. Electric cars should go a long way towards improving that.

Tesla is trying to market these things as appropriate for the great American road trip to Yellowstone. They are barking up the wrong tree.

Cooper Mini makes one, and with all the subsidies rebates and what all, I was told I could get one for less than $20,000. I test drove one here in Milwaukee last year, and had a nice 60 mile ride on mountain roads in a Tesla when were in California December 2019.

Last edited 3 months ago by Steve Case
fretslider
Reply to  Steve Case
April 22, 2021 3:49 am

Mini Cooper

Not so mini and exceedingly heavy. A guy down the road has one and it’s always on charge with a cable running across the pavement.

If that’s the future, people will be tripping over cables a lot.

Alan the Brit
Reply to  fretslider
April 22, 2021 4:39 am

Wow, a lawyers’ dream meal ticket, loads of cases to pursue for profit!!!!

Alan the Brit
Reply to  Alan the Brit
April 22, 2021 6:28 am

I should have added, if those pavements/paths/sidewalks are owned by the local town council, then the good old taxpayer will be footing the bill, as they usually do somewhere down the line!!!

Spetzer86
Reply to  fretslider
April 22, 2021 5:47 am

How much copper do you think there’d be in those cables for a block with all EVs?

fretslider
Reply to  Spetzer86
April 22, 2021 6:39 am

It’s cables draped out of tower blocks that worry me!

It can’t be done. This is the new feudalism.

Reply to  fretslider
April 22, 2021 2:35 pm

In parts of Sahrf London, it is humbly suggested that people will be thieving the cables [the copper cables] a lot.
Huge demand for copper to cable Britain anew, joining all the bat-beaters and bird-shredders,and solar panels from China to homes and – well, no factories here any more.

Be happy; be safe!

Auto

ghalfrunt
Reply to  Steve Case
April 22, 2021 4:05 am

Legally binding maximum levels of particulate air pollution should be lowered in the UK to be in line with World Health Organization limits, a coroner has said.
UK levels for two particularly harmful kinds of pollution are currently twice as high as the WHO recommends.
Philip Barlow, coroner for inner south London, ruled earlier this year that air pollution from traffic was a cause of the death of nine-year-old Ella Kissi-Debrah in February 2013.
It was the first time that toxic air had been given as a cause of death in the UK. Barlow said in his ruling in December that Ella had been exposed to nitrogen dioxide and particulate matter (PM) pollution in excess of WHO guidelines, the principal source of which was traffic emissions.

Climate believer
Reply to  ghalfrunt
April 22, 2021 4:53 am

Nobody likes breathing in pollution, and the story is tragic, but if that was my daughter, with acute asthma as that poor girl had, and numerous hospital visits, I would have moved. I would have done everything in my power to change that situation.

You can’t live 30 metres from one of the busiest roads in London with a child in that condition, then look to blame the state for negligence.

As a parent of two daughters and a son myself, my heart goes out to them, but really doesn’t anybody take personal responsibility for anything these days?

Derg
Reply to  ghalfrunt
April 22, 2021 5:22 am

Hey it’s Ghalfrunt who told us to drink bleach. Shame on you dude.

Simon
Reply to  Derg
April 22, 2021 1:11 pm

Hey it’s Ghalfrunt who told us to drink bleach.”
That was Trump.

Derg
Reply to  Simon
April 22, 2021 7:55 pm

No it was Ghalfrunt. You, on the other hand, were crying that Trump didn’t do anything about the China virus. “He really did a travel ban?”

You are a clown show.

R_G
Reply to  Simon
April 22, 2021 8:37 pm

No, it was CNN interpretation of what Trump advisor said.

John Endicott
Reply to  Simon
April 23, 2021 4:58 am

No, Simple Simon, it really wasn’t. Even politifact admits that Trump said no such thing. When even politifact won’t back up your lies, you know you’re way off base.

billtoo
Reply to  ghalfrunt
April 22, 2021 6:01 am

now do pollen

Sara
Reply to  ghalfrunt
April 22, 2021 10:35 am

So, ghalfrunt, it doesn’t occur to you that a major source of pollution in cities is more likely to come from BUILDINGS than from vehicles? That didn’t cross your mind?

Or did you even vaguely consider that cities create far more pollution rising out of things like trash and waste materials created and used by humans simply by their existence? Rotting food in garbage dumpsters is a major source of pollution anywhere.

And when that human factor is included, the homeless and the less-fortunate po’ folks in less-than low income neighborhoods, who outnumber the working commuters by a lot in many cities, never mind the abandoned animals on the streets. All those things add to pollution in metropolitan areas, which you seem to have ignored or dismissed, or both. The trash that people leave on the streets is at a demonstrably high level now, for some reason, most likely because the people who create it in the first place are too confoundedly lazy to put it into the dumspters.

Just wondering if the planet you live on is the same as mine, that’s all. :)(

chemman
Reply to  ghalfrunt
April 22, 2021 1:46 pm

LOL someone that actually trusts the WHO

Reply to  ghalfrunt
April 22, 2021 2:38 pm

Indeed.
Some – only some – is from ICEs.
Some is from tyres [US – tires] and brake pads.
My understanding is that EVs are likely to still have tyres [tires] and brake pads.

So EVs will reduce local motive power pollution, but will not eliminate all vehicular pollution.

Auto

R_G
Reply to  ghalfrunt
April 22, 2021 8:34 pm

It appears that lightning was seriously underestimated as a source of NOx polution. The recent paper published by NASA/Goddard said (citation – use of bold is mine):

“Using data gleaned from aircraft observations and satellites, Pickering and Goddard colleague Lesley Ott recently took steps toward a better global estimate of lightning-produced NOx and found that lightning may have a considerably stronger impact on the climate in the mid-latitudes and subtropics — and less on surface air quality — than previously thought.
According to a new paper by Ott and Pickering in the Journal of Geophysical Research, each flash of lightning on average in the several mid-latitude and subtropical thunderstorms studied turned 7 kilograms (15.4 pounds) of nitrogen into chemically reactive NOx. “In other words, you could drive a new car across the United States more than 50 times and still produce less than half as much NOx as an average lightning flash,” Ott estimated. The results were published July.”

Does anyone can really pinpoint what caused death of the kid with 100% certainty?

Last edited 3 months ago by R_G
Tim Gorman
Reply to  Steve Case
April 22, 2021 5:55 am

Did you read the part of the article talking about the impact of this on the poor? In every large city I’ve ever been in (and I’ve been in a lot) much of the poor live in apartments with on-street parking.

How are charging ports going to be provided for all the vehicles these people have? Who is going to pay for tearing up all the streets and sidewalks to put in charging ports – the poor?

And exactly how will it be done? If you start tearing up the sidewalks and streets you are going to cause all kinds of utility outages!

Steve Case
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 22, 2021 6:41 am

You have a valid point. Even poor people have computers and two cars these days. I haven’t seen a “My Other Car is a Bus” bumper sticker for a while now.

starzmom
Reply to  Steve Case
April 22, 2021 7:44 am

At least in the US, a municipal requirement like that for households will be a tough sell. Too many variables in a single household.

chemman
Reply to  Steve Case
April 22, 2021 1:44 pm

“I can imagine that down the road metropolitan areas are going to require that households with more than one vehicle, will require that one must be electric.”

You sound like a nanny stater that wants cities to tell you how to live your life.

Trying to Play Nice
Reply to  Steve Case
April 22, 2021 3:58 pm

Mini Cooper Electric starts over $30k but is eligible for a $7500 subsidy. With it’s 110 mile range it’s sure to get you wherever you want to go, as long as it isn’t far away.

BillR
April 22, 2021 3:35 am

I recently bought a hybrid used car. Best vehicle I’ve ever owned. Terrific fuel mileage, smooth, quiet, and comfortable. 600 mile range on 13 gal. regular gas. I never considered an EV. Rode in a Tesla, once. Driver was a hot dog. Back seat comfort is terrible. Never again.

H.R.
Reply to  BillR
April 22, 2021 5:56 am

Hybrids make some good sense, BillR. They take the range and recharge problems off the table.

Couldn’t charge up or forgot to charge up? No problem in a hybrid. Facing a long trip and no chance to recharge? No problem in a hybrid.

Towing a 16,000 pound trailer 1,400 miles, some of that through mountains? OK, that’s why I’m shopping for a diesel pickup truck (and I’ll be adding an auxiliary fuel tank). 😜

stewartpid
Reply to  BillR
April 22, 2021 7:13 am

Indeed Bill … I’ve had two hybrids, both bot coming off lease with 40,000 km / 25,000 miles. A 2008 Camry hybrid that my daughter still drives which can get 50 mpg on the highway and a 2015 Acura RLX hybrid that is more toy than serious mileage car but can still do 37 mpg on the highway but goes like stink when u get after the 377 horses. All wheel drive too with an electric motor on each rear wheel. Killer stereo to boot. Both hybrid systems have been trouble free to date.

ResourceGuy
Reply to  BillR
April 22, 2021 11:37 am

Yes, I’ve heard about the discomfort in the back seat of Teslas from others.

Climate believer
April 22, 2021 3:56 am

A timely article as usual from WUWT, I was just reading about a “EV buyer regret” story in the Spectator.

I think you get to read a couple of articles free, quite an honest account I thought.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-i-regret-buying-an-electric-car

Pamela Matlack-Klein
Reply to  Climate believer
April 22, 2021 4:59 am

Thanks for the link CB. Nothing like first person experiences to give us a feel for the pros and cons of EVs. All we hear are the pros from dealers, manufacturers, and rabid Greens. No one ever wants to discuss what actually goes into making one of these heavy things. I suspect that, in the long run, there is not a whole lot of difference between ICEs and EVs when the entire story is taken into account.

Ben Vorlich
April 22, 2021 4:00 am

In the East Midlands (UK) the cost of petrol/diesel is around £1.18-£1.25 per litre, of that 57.95 pence per litre is fuel duty and finally VAT is added to the cost of fuel plus duty (taxed on duty). So fuel costs about 45 pence per litre, and taxes about 75 pence and profit about 6 pence. But somehow the governments, not just this one, have managed to convince the public that greedy oil companies are to blame for the hih price.

There is also Vehicle Excise Duty, which used to called Road Tax but has long since been used for anything other than funding road building and maintenance. Colloquially known as Road Rent. Based on emmissions data

CO2 emission Single 12 month payment
A: Up to 100g/km £0
B: 101 to 110g/km £10
C: 111 to 120g/km £20
D: 121 to 130g/km £120
E: 131 to 140g/km £145
F: 141 to 150g/km £160
G: 151 to 165g/km £200
H: 166 to 175g/km £240
I: 176 to 185g/km £265
J: 186 to 200g/km £305
K*: 201 to 225g/km £330
L: 226 to 255g/km £575
M: Over 255g/km £590

None of these are paid by an EV

Thanks WUWT
Reply to  Ben Vorlich
April 22, 2021 4:13 am

Perhaps gas stations should voluntarily post all the taxes included in a gallon of gas.

griff
April 22, 2021 4:02 am

Average UK car journey is 29 miles

Tim Gorman
Reply to  griff
April 22, 2021 6:55 am

ROFL! And everyone lives in the UK?

It’s 100 miles from my house to the nearest largest city – Kansas City. Meaning a 200 mile round trip.

Simon
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 22, 2021 1:12 pm

Many EV’s do well over two hundred on a charge now.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Simon
April 22, 2021 4:43 pm

ROFL!!! Not in the hot summer or the cold of winter. I’ve been checking it out because wifey and I want to lower our travel expenses. The only thing that we’ve found to be reasonable is a hybrid.

Simon
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 22, 2021 6:20 pm

Well you didn’t check very hard now did you Timmy?
https://www.kbb.com/best-cars/top-10-longest-range-electric-cars/

John Endicott
Reply to  Simon
April 23, 2021 5:07 am

Simple Simon, that link doesn’t give ranges for the hot of summer or the cold of winter. It only gives the marketing ranges which are based on ideal conditions. Try to get the stated range on any of those vehicles in the dead of winter in Kansas, Minnesota, or Wyoming while using the cars heating system and listening to the radio for the latest traffic and weather updates. You won’t come anywhere close to those ranges, and you know it (and if you don’t know it, you’re even dumber than your posts indicate).

Last edited 3 months ago by John Endicott
Simon
Reply to  John Endicott
April 23, 2021 12:32 pm

Jovial Johny. Thanks for the polite advice. I am well aware (like many ICE engines) the stated range is often no where near the real word although sometimes it is more. But these ranges are so far over TM’s required two hundred miles that I think he would be safe. And let’s face it, the range are only going to get better so watch this space.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Simon
April 23, 2021 3:55 pm

Who says they are so far over? 200 miles with the heater going in the cold winter is probably OPTIMISTIC for many of the EV’s because of the lower efficiency of the batteries when it gets colder.

And, again, who says the ranges are only going to get better? There haven’t been any improvement in battery technology for over a decade – more efficient packaging, yes, but no innovation in the technology. Packaging can only take you so far and it is reaching the physical limits already today.

You are like the poker player drawing four cards hoping to fill a flush or straight. Don’t bet the pink slip on it happening.

Bryan A
Reply to  Simon
April 24, 2021 11:04 am

And just look at their prices, the median is about $60,000 and with renewable electricity running ¢30 per kWH who can afford one.
As to performance
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZH7V2tU3iFc
There was a race between a 2013 Tesla model S and a 1913 Ford model T from Chicago to the Tesla Museum on Long Island. The Tesla won by 45 minutes but only because the Model T had to stop and rebuild it’s carburetor to stop a gas leak.

Ben Vorlich
Reply to  griff
April 22, 2021 8:27 am

Less than 1GW from wind at the moment in the UK. The sun is just beginning to get close to the horizon. UK wind has been non-existent for over a fortnight relying on wind means the average UK journey won’t be done in an EV

Climate believer
Reply to  griff
April 22, 2021 8:36 am

Are you sure about that? seems quite high.

James Walter
April 22, 2021 4:07 am

While I know the EV’s are absurd on every level, why aren’t the “Greens” (in name only since EV has a much nastier footprint than petrol cars), so why aren’t the Greens pushing mass transit instead of cars. Why not have luxury mass transit on steroids for all these rich, virtue signally nincompoops?

Simon
Reply to  James Walter
April 22, 2021 1:14 pm

While I know the EV’s are absurd on every level,’
Really. How many have you driven? My pick is none. So based on no experience you make an ignorant comment. Wow. And you put your full name up there for the world to see.

John Endicott
Reply to  Simon
April 23, 2021 5:15 am

While saying on “every level” is certainly hyperbolic and overstating the case, the fact is one doesn’t need to drive one to have researched and understand the technology. After all you don’t have to ingest poison to know that doing so would be a very bad idea, but apparently you think the only way to know ingesting poison is bad is to ingest poison. No wonder you don’t put your full name up there for the world to see.

Simon
Reply to  John Endicott
April 23, 2021 12:56 pm

What? If you think that is a reasonable analogy then you have a problem. Of course I don’t need to drink poison to know it will kill me, but I think it reasonable to at least drive an EV before telling the world they are “absurd.” The only absurd thing here is your blind devotion to an outdated technology. It’s true EV’s have some issues to sort before being fully accepted by the public, but all new tech faces hurdles. I for one plan to stay up with the play and not deny reality.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Simon
April 23, 2021 4:03 pm

EV’s are *not* being accepted by most of the public. If they were then there would be a lot more of them being sold today. There isn’t anything on the horizon that is going to change that significantly other than the Marxist Democrats exerting their tyrannical impulses and mandating EV’s for everyone like they are mandating wearing masks outside for people that have been vaccinated.

Simon
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 23, 2021 5:32 pm

mandating wearing masks outside for people that have been vaccinated.”
Good job. Why should your selfishness affect the lives of others.Wear a GD mask.

And … If you read my post I didn’t say EV’s were being accepted. I said they had some issues to sort before they would be.

Drake
Reply to  Simon
April 24, 2021 6:51 pm

1) Masks do almost nothing.
2) Outside at reasonable distances apart masks add NO protection.
3) Please provide a link to a double blind scientific study that shows conclusively that once vaccinated a person can both get the China virus and, without symptoms, spread the virus.
4) Aren’t you a little Hitler. Are you out every night with the brown shirt Antifa and BLM protesters?

For your own edification, learn some history and see that what you stand for is the process whereby Hitler came to power.

Selfishness? When I am not sick, why should I wear a mast to protect YOU from NOTHING? If you are a chickensh!t, wear a mask. Hell, you probably wear a mask while driving alone down the road with the windows closed. I always laugh when I see one of THOSE and then see their OBinen bumper sticker.

People like you really are very scary. Communists always are to freedom loving people.

2hotel9
Reply to  Drake
April 25, 2021 8:21 am

If you can smell smoke through it then it is not stopping any virus.

John Endicott
Reply to  Simon
April 26, 2021 2:29 am

The problem is all yours simple. If you don’t see the point of the analogy (ie the foolishness and falsity of your “you can only know something is bad only after you’ve tried it for yourself” view you expressed ), then we can add “hypocritical thinking” to your long list of deficiencies.

John Endicott
Reply to  Simon
April 27, 2021 2:39 am

Oh, and it’s not “new tech”. Electric Vehicles existed *before* Gasoline powered ones. They failed back then for pretty much some of the same reasons they remain niche now: range, “fueling” time, expense, etc. The biggest differences now vs back then are 1) the govt subsidies/money being poured into them now & 2) “virtue signaling” wasn’t a thing back then. Take away those two things and they wouldn’t even be the niche they currently are.

2hotel9
April 22, 2021 4:26 am

EVs are toys, actual working people need actual working vehicles. The toys of choice of actual working people are motor cycles, side-by-sides and four wheelers. Oh, and boats and jet skis.

Drake
Reply to  2hotel9
April 24, 2021 6:57 pm

Diesel truck, 5th wheel trailer, flat bed trailer to carry some of our 7 4 wheelers, both UTV and ATV, 1 boat with a trailer, 2 gas chain saws and 1 battery chain saw, which actually works pretty well for limbing.

Sorry no MC or jet ski. I guess I am a slacker.

Vuk
April 22, 2021 5:21 am

If left it on charge in your garage attached to the house, have couple of smoke alarms.
Lithium-ion battery packs are required to have a protection circuit to prevent excessive pressure build-up and cut off the flow of ions when the temperature is too high. In a lithium-ion battery, overcharging can create unstable conditions inside the battery, increase pressure, and cause thermal runaway.”
If smoke alarms go off you runaway as fast as possible.

Steve E.
Reply to  Vuk
April 22, 2021 5:43 am

and don’t forget that the standard fire department response to an EV fire is to stand and watch, since there is nothing they can do to put out the fire.

rah
April 22, 2021 5:41 am

This trucker sees them on the road. Whenever I see a Tesla I immediately identify the driver as having more money than sense.

Simon
Reply to  rah
April 22, 2021 6:50 pm

Let’s be honest here though, and please don’t take this the wrong way, but your comment would indicate you are speaking from a position of ignorance and won’t (I am guessing) have ever driven one. Why not take a chance and take one for a test drive? They are like nothing else when it comes to acceleration and exhilaration.

Rah
Reply to  Simon
April 22, 2021 7:57 pm

hell Even today an electric golf cart sucks compared to a cart with an ice. They can’t even produce an electric refer power source to replace the little diesels that power those units on a trailer.

And I have driven EVs plenty. They just weren’t cars. And why would I test drive something I have no intention of buying?

I have much better and more important stuff to spend my time and money on. Like right now getting a whole house on demand generator installed for my home. Lost electrical service 3 times this year already and I’m sick of it.

I just drove 380 miles hauling 32,000 lb of freight. Much of it through the hills of KY and TN and the last 100 miles on two lane roads. Now backed into the door at the TENNECO plant in Smithville, TN and am hitting the sleeper. Good night. Have fun with you toy.

Patrick MJD
April 22, 2021 6:23 am

I use EV’s, they are called trains.

Tim Gorman
Reply to  Patrick MJD
April 22, 2021 6:56 am

I think you’ll find that most trains are actually hybrids, not EV’s.

rah
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 22, 2021 9:56 am

Diesel Electric. A couple of the largest German armored tracked vehicles during WW II were also diesel electric.

Patrick MJD
Reply to  rah
April 22, 2021 9:22 pm

Well they are trains that are not electrified. Most commuter services here in Sydney are electric (Coal fired power). Yeah, I am familiar with those tanks. They were simply too big and were not effective. Submarines were D/E too, but there were a few “E-boats” that were very effective.

Patrick MJD
Reply to  Tim Gorman
April 22, 2021 9:23 pm

Most EV’s are charged using coal/gas fired generation.

ResourceGuy
April 22, 2021 6:25 am

But they still need their tax credits for these lightly used vanity show cars. Couldn’t we at least convert it to a deduction instead of a full offset tax credit? A green vanity plate would be better than a credit or a deduction to go with all the other bumper stickers all over the back of the cars.

starzmom
Reply to  ResourceGuy
April 22, 2021 7:51 am

The mandatory green vanity plate should come with a substantial upcharge, directed to the highway fund.

Patrick MJD
April 22, 2021 6:31 am

There was a report a few days ago that two people died in a Tesla that was on “autopilot”, crashed and burst in to flames. Fire crews gave up after a while as they could not put the fire out.

Last edited 3 months ago by Patrick MJD
Chuck no longer in Houston
Reply to  Patrick MJD
April 22, 2021 3:11 pm

Elon says the car wasn’t on autopilot. It was a pretty high-speed impact into the tree and it’s not improbable that the body found in the back seat began his journey in the front seat. But yeah, the fire thing is problematic.

John Endicott
Reply to  Chuck no longer in Houston
April 23, 2021 7:02 am

Oh, well if Elon says it, it must be true. He clearly has no conflicts of interest when speaking out about this kind of thing! I think I’ll wait for the independent reports on what happened over anything Elon might have to say about it.

BTW, In a pretty high-speed impact like that, an unseatbelted body in the front seat is more likely going to be outside the car (having travelled through the front window) then end up in the back seat. If wearing a seatbelt then they’d likely remain belted in their seat rather then in the back seat.

That’s not to say it couldn’t happen, just that the odds don’t favor that explanation – IE If they weren’t belted in and their body didn’t shatter the glass when it was thrown forward, they could (in theory) have bounce back into the rear of the vehicle. Again, an independent investigation should be able to determine what probably happen to the people in the vehicle during the impact.

Michael S. Kelly
Reply to  John Endicott
April 23, 2021 7:42 pm

Last August, my wife and I visited relatives in Arizona. The couple are very successful young entrepreneurs, with two young daughters. The dad bought a Tesla Model X as their SUV. We rode in it from their second home in Flagstaff to Snow Bowl, to go hiking. I have to say, it was the most fun ride I’ve ever had in any wheeled vehicle. Doing a “Tesla takeoff” from a stoplight was nothing short of breathtaking. The autodrive feature was really quite amazing, though he didn’t use it other than for situational awareness (it displays all vehicles in one’s vicinity). Now, the electronic entertainment system was…how shall I put this?…adolescent male in character. His wife and mine rolled their eyes at many of its “features.” In the parking lot at Snow Bowl, the gull-wing doors proved themselves superior to doors on any vehicle I’ve ever owned in terms of clearance. And the ride was simply second to none.

They have to plan family trips carefully according to vehicle range (about 300 miles) and availability of charging stations. It has ruled out vacation trips that they would otherwise have taken.

The daughters don’t like the Model X, and I suspect their mother doesn’t, either. The dad does, because it’s an adolescent male-oriented toy, and he’s just a big kid. But it cost more than my first house in California cost. He paid cash for it, as he does with everything, and I admire his success and ability to enjoy the toys on the market. I’m not sure I wouldn’t buy a Tesla as a second car, if I had that kind of disposable income. They really are cool toys.

But I’m almost 67, and am facing replacing my 16 year old Toyota Tundra pickup with the vehicle that will undoubtedly be the last such purchase of my life. Given where we live, and the need for 4 wheel drive (or equivalent) in winter, I’m leaning toward either a Toyota 4Runner, or a Graf Zeppelin. The latter certainly fits in better with the hydrogen economy (though hydrogen ballooning is prohibited in the US, so I’ll have to appeal to President * for an executive exception).

Last edited 3 months ago by Michael S. Kelly
ResourceGuy
Reply to  Michael S. Kelly
April 24, 2021 7:32 am

My five used Toyotas will go the distance. What distance you ask?–the distance to watch all the unintended consequences of mass policy-driven adoption play out with negative impact on the grid, lower quality models harming consumers, and car industry crisis with bailouts and job contraction. You might want to consider buying two used Toyotas and then sell one to the desperate buyers that retrench in panic mode.

ResourceGuy
April 22, 2021 6:49 am

The auto insurance industry loves lightly used vanity cars so they can over insure them.

Reply to  ResourceGuy
April 23, 2021 8:40 pm

Resource Guy:
In early 2020 I priced insuring a used Tesla3 [2018-19] vs a new Hyundai Sonata hybrid [I have, and like, a 2011 Sonata hybrid]. It was ~$600 dollars more per year for the Tesla.

Michael Nagy
April 22, 2021 7:10 am

I find it hilarious that Newsom is wanting to make users pay for the upkeep of California roads. Have you driven the freeways of LA or San Francisco lately? The outside two lanes where the trucks run are almost undriveable with cracks and holes everywhere. California has a great system of freeways but they are crumbling from lack of maintenance.
On the subject of Tesla, aren’t they shutting down one Tesla plant in Europe completely? Musk is having trouble competing with the other companies maybe?

John Endicott
Reply to  Michael Nagy
April 23, 2021 7:08 am

Yes, Tesla is shutting down it’s assembly plant in Tilburg, the Netherlands, supposedly due to a change in the production process for newer versions of the models that had been assembled there.

Bruce Cobb
April 22, 2021 7:49 am

Our 2nd vehicle is a full-size (8′ bed) pickup. It can actually do stuff, like bring our trash to the “recycling” center (motto “you’re doing it wrong”), and pick up lumber and stuff from Home Depot.

valleyboy
April 22, 2021 8:13 am

My first attempt at a post was met with a 4-5 red score (if I intepret it correctly – thumbs up/thumbs down). Guess i’ll try again. Essentially the same subject.

Based on a friends advice I recently purchased a used (2017) Chevy Volt. He has a 2016 model he purchased new which is his daily driver and he has had no problems with it.. He recently sold his Tesla which left him stranded (limping home) too many times. Replaced it with a Porsche ICE.

The vehicle I purchased had about 30,000 miles on it and was like new. I have just under 7,000 miles on it to date. IMO this is an extremely practical vehicle where I live (LA suburb). Purchase price was $14,000 and change. Less than $18,000 tax, liscence, extended warranty and out the door. I even got a $1,000 rebate from Edison on a used vehicle.

For the range extended vehicles it is the only one that really fills the practical bill at present- 53 miles (again IMO). Something close to 100 miles would be better.All the rest are just too short. For the record I was one of the Mini-E test lease drivers for 2 years and while that was great fun to drive it truely demonstrated range anxiety (it usually had 100 miles range but no ICE) and ambient temperature sensativity. Limping home at 20 mies an hour on surface streets on 114 degree days in the San Fernando Valley. No AC but some ear plugs would have been nice – many other annoyed drivers. Should have waited till 11 pm – still hot but less honking.Those in the northeast had a similar but different version of this on cold days. I had a rapid charger in my garage which was fine once I got home. If you had to use the portable charger (110 v) you had better pack a lunch.

Based on my experience to date the Volt covers over 90 % of my current driving needs on full EV. When the battery pack fully depletes it shifts seamlessly to the ICE and will then motor on for another 200-300 miles. What I have learned to do is switch from EV to ICE once I am on the freeway for any extended period and then use the EV once back on the surface streets. With the rather limited size battery pack the standard charger (110 volts, standard outlet, 15 amp circuit) worked well to recharge it over night. The automatic software regulating charge times works as advertised and with the lower charge rate (8 amps) and capacity (16Kwh?) i assume it is a little gentler on the grid.

I believe that Chevy made these from 2011 to 2019 when they then killed the project and went to full on EV. Given the inherent problems with the grid and the immensly greater demands that will be placed on it – greater range = larger batteries = more energy and thus greater charge rates to remain acceptable = more instantaneous energy delivery and California’s currently demonstrated inability to deliver in this regard I suspect this will remain a non-starter for the time being.

Driving an EV with good functional regenerative breaking is addicitve. It soon becomes an ingrained response. As for virtue I do believe that EV use does/will help with air quality in many urban areas. Even if it just moves the nasty stuff somewhere else (production site) those that live in these areas still have to breath the air around them. ICE’s are better and auto shut off technology seems to work some but I doubt they would have the impact that more vehicles like the Volt would have. In my mind they are just another good tool in addressing this problem.

As far as man made global warming is concerned I think that for the most part it is bad science and political hubris. As far as some of the emerging technologies go I think there may be some great promise that we should all embrace. Given the impractical nature of 100% EV use (as well described on this site) I do not understand why greater pursuit of the range extended vehicle is not part of an acceptable solution. In my opinion it would adequately fill a great many peoples every day needs.

Oh, my other ride is a 3/4 ton, 8 foot bed, Cummins diesel pickup with 280,000 mies on it. I’ll probably be buried in it.

IMO I think the demands for electricity will only go up – and perhaps exponentially. Whether it is hot or cold, wet or dry. I think an interesting exercise (perhaps given to Gavin Newsom or his successor) would be how California could become energy independent – no matter what the source is. How could we become the lowest priced state in this regard. Then we solve how we will deliver this commodity. Along the way we will solve other issues (environment). If we make the latter the main priority we will spin our wheels forever. Also – think about hardening these critical sytems against solar flares (Carrington event), EPM’s (bad guys), weather, fires, quakes – and/or all of the above.

Oh, The real Valleyboy (silicon valley) is Tom Perkins – inventor of the commercial laser, Hewlett Packard, venture captial and so forth. That is the title of his biography. Interesting read.

Hope I’m a little less red this time.

Cheers

John Endicott
Reply to  valleyboy
April 23, 2021 7:13 am

yes, the volt was a plug-in hybrid from GM which was discontinued a couple years ago. A relative of mine has one (2018 I think). Nice car, shame they discontinued it for full EV. As Kirk Lazarus might say “never go full EV”

stewartpid
Reply to  John Endicott
April 23, 2021 10:39 am

I had the same thought about the Volt as u posted John & went looking and found this: Although it would be nice to continue producing the Volt, GM needed to stop making it due in part to changing consumer preferences for SUVs, he said. The company also lost money on every Volt, cash that is needed for research on autonomous vehicles and more advanced electric cars, he said.

Philo
April 22, 2021 8:50 am

A long time ago, circa 1965, Scientific American was a science magazine and published a Dept. of Transportation article on the effects of axle weight on different types of highway construction.

Not surprising that asphalt roads were much weaker than a concrete superhighway built to the original spec- 24inches of gravel base, 8 inches of sub concrete, and 2+inches of top layer(mostly asphalt.

The primary result was that durability was highly susceptible to axle weight. A truck load just a couple thousand pounds in excess of the required axle weight limit could double damage, higher loads caused exponentially more damage.

Automobiles, no matter how many, caused virtually no overall damage. Auto traffic mainly caused divots in the asphalt top coat which were insignificant if they were quickly repaired. Letting them collect rain, snow, and road salt greatly increased the asphalt damage but took a long time to damage the concrete.

We had a local freeway here in central PA that was seriously underbuilt, before they totally rebuilt it. In a rainstorm you could see the adjacent concrete slabs(~60ft long) tipping 2-3 inches as a truck hit the slab and then bouncing back after it passed. There was no rebar connecting the slabs which was supposedly required. Easily visible was a gravel base about 8-12 inches thick and the concrete was 4-6 inches. No asphalt top layer. As I found out, typical PA graft.

Drake
Reply to  Philo
April 24, 2021 7:18 pm

With geofabrics highways and other roads are built much better.

Of course there will always be graft. The problem is no one gets barred FOREVER from any government money of ANY kind when caught. That would include any “charity” that gets government funds also.

Olen
April 22, 2021 9:14 am

The tax now paid at the pump is a mileage tax because gasoline is consumed mostly while driving. The tax is to maintain roads and bridges is what is paid at the pump.

Double taxation seems to be no problem for the detached elected politician who consider their job to find new ways to regulate and tax.

Joel O'Bryan
April 22, 2021 9:26 am

Power outages are now commonplace in California and Texas…”

Demonstrably false. They may become commonplace, but they are currently not. Cal’s PG&E directed outages during fire-season are because they haven’t maintained distribution lines and they thus need to avoid sparking more fires during high wind events. Nothing to do with source of electricity itself.

John Endicott
Reply to  Joel O'Bryan
April 23, 2021 7:22 am

only demonstrably false because a one-time event in Texas doesn’t count as “common place” so lumping Texas in there is what makes it demonstrably false. As for California, as you admit, power outages *are* common place, quibbling over the reasons why they’re common place doesn’t alter the fact that they are. Adding more demand (more EVs) to a system that is already experiencing issues with meeting current demand (for what ever reasons) isn’t a wise thing, and I for one certainly wouldn’t want to own an EV as my primary means of escape during “fire-season” when I know it’s common place for the grid-power not be there to support it.

ResourceGuy
Reply to  John Endicott
April 24, 2021 7:22 am

Can’t wait for the CA debacle.

CapitalistRoader
April 22, 2021 9:29 am

…when and how will the lower income earners join the EV excitement?

They never will. That’s the point. CA will outlaw affordable transportation for the proletariat, forcing them into collective transportation so they can be properly monitored by the State. Then, finally, they’ll all be packed into The Ideal Communist City. No cars required or allowed.

shrnfr
April 22, 2021 9:42 am

I look forward to the day when we are fossil fuel free and people are forced to drive on Belgian Block and Wood Corduroy roads. Can’t have cement or asphalt after all. Asphalt comes from oil and you need coal to make cement.

John the Econ
April 22, 2021 9:58 am

“…how will the lower income earners join the EV excitement?”

They won’t. That’s a feature and not a bug for the Progressive elite who have tired of the riff-raff clogging up the highways and overrunning their favorite destinations. They’ll raise taxes for more mass transit for those people.

Doonman
April 22, 2021 11:07 am

If you want to buy a brick, then buy an EV which has zero resale value when the battery dies.

Craig W
April 22, 2021 1:24 pm

“EV’s not family workhorses, but short range second cars”
Tell me about it! My son bought a Tesla and has asked my wife for one of our gasoline powered vehicles whenever he drives out of town. His wife finally bought a practical gas powered Audi SUV for their primary vehicle.
The only way to make an electric vehicle practical would be to add generators that charge partitioned batteries while the wheels are in motion.

ResourceGuy
April 22, 2021 1:56 pm

Normally I would say go for it and leave me out of it, but in this case we as taxpayers are paying for tax credits for EVs and more credits for overpriced rooftop solar installations using Chinese panels made with parts from forced labor camps. So we can’t be conscientious objectors to the Climate Wars.

Steve Case
April 22, 2021 2:01 pm

Sort of of topic but at least car related. I called the driveway coating company who owes me a response to schedule my driveway coating job, and you know what he said? “We won’t start to start scheduling until May so I will circle back at that time.” I blew up, “Circle back”?! That’s what Biden’s press secretary says and it means you won’t ever get an answer, so why don’t you use another figure of speech that won’t piss your customers off.”

goldminor
April 22, 2021 2:39 pm

Here is an interesting tidbit “In addition to giving a 50 percent battery life increase, Tesla also announced that it will be bundled with solar products from now on.
“Starting next week, Tesla Solar Panels & Solar Roof will only be sold as an integrated product with Tesla Powerwall battery,” Musk tweeted. “Solar power will feed exclusively to Powerwall. Powerwall will interface only between utility meter & house main breaker panel, enabling super simple install & seamless whole house backup during utility dropouts,” another tweet read.” … https://thehill.com/changing-america/sustainability/energy/549838-elon-musk-is-increasing-teslas-powerwall-power

Kit P
April 22, 2021 3:47 pm

If an EV was a good idea I would own one. Comparing one bad choice to another does not make it a good choice.

still city air is crappy

So where do you live China?

‘Good Air Quality’ has a rigorous air definition. US cities have been there for 20 years long before the current EV fad. airnow.gov

I am old enough to remember bad air quality. So some idiot coroner ruled that a 93 old woman was killed by pollution based on junk science. She died of old age fool. If air pollution was going to kill her she would not have made past 2.

SPR is a methodology for effects of air pollution. What is the source of pollution and the pathway to the receptor.

I have seen some really bad air quality the last few years. Smoke from wildfires cut visibility to less than a quarter mile where I was in Washington State.

If you want to claim EV solve pollution, first state what the level of pollution is. Then state what the source is. Then show how an EV will fix that.

EV = EEV (elsewhere emission vehicle)

Editor
April 22, 2021 3:51 pm

About 40% of EVs are hybrid gas/electric. Everyone I know who has one just outs gas in it….they don’t plug-in.

To date, I have seen only 2 Teslas, ever, on the road.

Editor
Reply to  Kip Hansen
April 22, 2021 3:51 pm

…puts gas….

Drake
Reply to  Kip Hansen
April 24, 2021 7:34 pm

I see Teslas regularly on I 15 between Utah and Las Vegas, at least one almost every trip, I don’t travel at the same time every trip so I would think different cars.

Of course it is a heavily traveled road.

Editor
Reply to  Drake
April 25, 2021 8:45 am

Drake ==> Well, Teslas certainly haven’t had the rapid uptake that the Minis did . . .

Kit P
April 22, 2021 3:59 pm

One of the more recent reasons for buying an EV is that they will save you money in the long run. This was based on driving 15k miles a year and the difference in the price of gas and electricity.

According to the study, EV are being used 5k miles a year.

Got to love the justifications men give their wives for buying a status symbol.

The Saint
April 22, 2021 8:47 pm

Nobody really wants an EV. The batteries burn in a crash, the range is limited, fueling stations are limited and take forever, batteries need to be replaced eventually and nobody but the dealer knows how to work on them.

Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
April 22, 2021 8:50 pm

The subject of EVs always seems to generate a lot of heated comments on both sides. Leaving aside for the moment all the issues around subsidies and mandates, let’s take a sober view of the practical utility of EVs for owners:

Benefits:

  1. EV technology has advanced significantly, to the point where they are a practical choice for some people. In urban settings in temperate climates, they can likely function as at least the second vehicle in a two-car household.
  2. EVs offer the promise of lower lifetime maintenance, repair and fuel costs. The much lower moving part count in the drivetrain pretty much guarantees that some major repair bills common with older IC vehicles will not hit EV owners. Other vehicle systems like suspension, steering, electrical are essentially identical on the two types and maintenance/repair bills should be equivalent. The major uncertainty here is the battery, for which we do not have enough data to estimate lifetime costs.
  3. EVs definitely lower emissions of actual pollutants from the vehicle itself, some of which is relocated to the power plant.

Drawbacks:

  1. They do not do well in very hot or cold weather — not a good choice for people living in Yuma Arizona, or Nome Alaska. They also will not serve to replace a pickup truck, assuming the truck is actually used as intended. Except in Elon Musk’s PR hype, there is nothing even distantly on the horizon to replace heavy inter-city trucks.
  2. They are especially inconvenient for apartment and other multi-family dwellers who can’t have a dedicated charging port for their vehicle. An apartment or condominium complex cannot afford to bring in the additional electric capacity required to provide one port per vehicle or one port per unit, even if the extra capacity exists in the local distribution loop. Or rather, most renters and certainly all non-EV renters will not willingly pay the higher rent needed for the apartment or condominium complex to purchase the capacity upgrade.
  3. The expected maintenance/repair savings currently come at a substantial premium purchase price. It’s hard to find an apples-to-apples comparison; last time I looked I found only one vehicle where the same model came in both a pure battery-electric version and a standard hybrid version and the premium in that case was more that $10K. It is simply not worth paying an extra $10K today to save $20K over the next 15+ years, particularly as most of the major repair bills for an ICV will come in the last five years of its life. Teslas essentially compete in the luxury car market, so the premium is proportionally lower, but people who can buy a luxury car don’t really worry about lower lifetime costs, even if they like to brag about it.
  4. Lower range and longer “refill” time. There is simply no getting around this. While it might never be an issue for around-town driving, it is a definite compromise for longer highway trips. EV owners can and do work around this, but it is still a drawback.

None of this will dissuade people who believe in EVs, and this is to be expected. Carmakers have always advertised cars using emotional appeal, and a large part of the public responds to it even as they know the appeal is false:

  • If you buy a big 4×4 pickup truck, you are not going to go bounding over streams and boulder-strewn dirt trails up a mountain in Monument Valley to enjoy a spectacular view of sunset.
  • If you buy a red Ferrari convertible, a sexy blond supermodel in a diaphanous gown and flimsy Italian sandals is not going to jump in with you for a ride through a twisty Alpine road.
  • If you buy an EV, you are not going to save the planet from CO2-induced thermageddon. Willis Eschenbach posted some calculations here; depending on electrical generation mix which supplies you, you might only save 3% on CO2 emitted / mile. It’s a long way to “net zero” at that rate.

Pretending you are only using “green” electrons to charge your EV is delusion; it only means you are forcing your neighbors to use proportionally more “dirty” electrons to do their laundry. The total electric demand will be filled from the total available generation mix regardless of accounting sleight-of-hand. If you didn’t buy an EV, your neighbors would all be proportionally “greener”. How can you feel virtuous when your choice has forced your neighbors into greater sin?

But if you want to buy an EV for whatever reason, go right ahead; I won’t mock you. Just don’t claim that EVs fill the same spectrum of needs currently supplied by ICVs, or that they will make any detectable difference in global CO2 emissions.

Coming back to the issue of subsidies; with EVs like everything else they distort the market and skew decision-making. The society as a whole spends a given amount annually in exchange for a certain value in personal transportation. To the extent subsidies cause people to spend more total dollars (their own plus the subsidy) to get the same or lesser transportation value, we have as a society become poorer by the difference.

stewartpid
Reply to  Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
April 23, 2021 10:26 am

Tesla batteries are so good tesla won’t share the info on failures, fires etc <sarc>

ResourceGuy
Reply to  stewartpid
April 23, 2021 12:28 pm

Tesla does not share info on other things about the cars with independent certified mechanics unlike any other brand and industry standard

ResourceGuy
Reply to  Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
April 23, 2021 11:11 am

Several thoughts here:
1) You are exactly right about the second car as EV in urban areas for the wealthy (and where the main voter target base is)
2) As in the current marketplace, low income buyers are going to get shafted with lower quality models and lower reliability which in this case is going to mean battery fires like Chevy Bolt.
3) Any major pull back by the buying public once EVs ramp up is going to send GM back to bankruptcy and bailout. It’s possible we could see another major round of U.S. capacity contraction while Biden is touting battery jobs etc. at other locations.
4) The insurance market is here to serve you with overcharges for lower mile usage EVs.

Reply to  Alan Watt, Climate Denialist Level 7
April 23, 2021 9:03 pm

Alan Watt:
Nice post.
Here is a 2019 MIT review of EV [Tesla] vs ICE [Toyota Camry] that looks at the costs of the full life-cycle of the vehicles: from mining the materials, maintenance, to recycling the car at end-of-life. It did not include EV purchase subsides or battery replacement.
https://energy.mit.edu/insightsintofuturemobility
Bottom line: they thoiught it would be ~10 years or so before a EV would be cost effective to a comparatively equiped ICE. Mainly due to the cost of the battery.