From “the stupid, it burns like white phosporous” department comes this epic level of journalistic bullhockey.
The unseen driver behind the migrant caravan: climate change
Oliver Milman in New York, Emily Holden, and David Agren in Huixtla, Mexico
While violence and poverty have been cited as the reasons for the exodus, experts say the big picture is that changing climate is forcing farmers off their land – and it’s likely to get worse
Thousands of Central American migrants trudging through Mexico towards the US have regularly been described as either fleeing gang violence or extreme poverty.
But another crucial driving factor behind the migrant caravan has been harder to grasp: climate change.
Most members of the migrant caravans come from Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador – three countries devastated by violence, organised crime and systemic corruption, the roots of which can be traced back to the region’s cold war conflicts.
Experts say that alongside those factors, climate change in the region is exacerbating – and sometimes causing – a miasma of other problems including crop failures and poverty.
And they warn that in the coming decades, it is likely to push millions more people north towards the US.
…
Migrants don’t often specifically mention “climate change” as a motivating factor for leaving because the concept is so abstract and long-term, Albro said. But people in the region who depend on small farms are painfully aware of changes to weather patterns that can ruin crops and decimate incomes.
Read the entire stupid thing here.
This “climate driver” idea is just as stupid as the idea that these people are making the trek of over 2000 miles on their own, walking the entire way, without assistance, timing the arrival to coincide with just before the U.S. Elections, so they can be front page news, and used to elicit sympathy for one party while being used to attack the other.
Make no mistake, they aren’t “climate refugees” they are political tools, plain and simple.
And remember years ago when we were told about how millions of climate refugees would materialize?
In 2005, the United Nations Environment Programme predicted that climate change would create 50 million climate refugees by 2010. These people, it was said, would flee a range of disasters including sea level rise, increases in the numbers and severity of hurricanes, and disruption to food production.
And then, in 2010, when not a single climate refugee materialized, the UNEP scrubbed it from their website, and botched the cover up attempt.
Yeah, this claim today from the Guardian is just as accurate as that disappeared load of codswallop.
We do know that most recently the last 30-40 years, the savage war on drugs was very much responsible for the strife that developed throughout much of Central America. And before that, it was a lot of Banana Republican land use by a greedy class that didn’t allow real participation in the economy by most everybody, but especially Indigenous peoples including to modern times. And before that, of course, it was the Spanish Inquisition visited upon by said and a corrupt Catholic Church.
But the global warming and climate change narrative has nothing to do with it now, except for another misguided class of elites claiming that it is, and trying to take power. These are very poor disadvantaged people just wanting to get out of their hell hole, and see the Promised Land that they see in the movies and on TV. We would be better to try and improve their political fortunes at home instead of giving them any false hope that they will successfully integrate into the American fabric. But America and the world does owe them the effort to sort out their problems back home. Let’s start there for now and ensure they can make a living at home in relative peace. It will save a lot of grief here too.
Earthling2, “Banana Republican”? The phrase is “Banana Republic”, which I am sure you know, so using “Republican” is showing your true agenda. I have actually worked in the field in these areas of Central America, the last time just after Hurricane Mitch went through. Our hotel in Honduras was shot at during the night. Thugs with AK-47’s and balaclavas walked down streets. We encountered persons in the jungle with shotguns hunting monkeys to eat. This Caravan is very well organized and has overt political objects, for instance do you think an overweight lady carrying two kids is going to walk 2,000 miles in flip-flops? They are not Climate Refugees, they should apply at the border for refugee status and only those that qualify, usually around 20%, should be considered for admission, they others cannot cross (legally) from Mexico. Here is a hint about who is the organizer of the Caravan, it is not “Republican” as in “Banana Republican”.
Don’t get hung up on a word Ron…that is what my fancy Apple computer spell checker put in there, hehehe. I obviously had no local political agenda with that, in context, other than showing that major marginalization of the local folk since pre-contact is what went wrong in Central America. Boy…you sure are sensitive if you reading local stuff into that or even anything directly about that caravan. I sure ain’t no Democrat…but until Eisenhower/Reagan, it was more the Dems screwing around in Latin America for decades. Over many administrations.
I spent some time in El Salvador last winter, the murder capital of the world. It is semi-ruled by 14 oligarch family’s the last 150 years. I was there on a different mission, but the collective PTSD in the air was very thick. Maybe since the time of the Mayan and the never ending human sacrifice. Most everybody looked resigned to the fact that life was very cheap and people could be murdered any day. The mortuaries and casket business was going very well. In the few weeks I was there, there was nearly a hundred murders. No doubt normal folk want to get the hell out if they can. The majority in the rural area’s are mostly Indigenous, as is much of the rural area’s of other Central American countries, so they don’t even catch a break with their Latino superiors running the Gov’t or in the cities, although the violence isn’t reserved for either. Which had a feel similar to how the local Native American Indians were doing around here 50-60 years ago. Yes, there are legitimate gripes, and we owe it to them with the Monroe Doctrine the last 200 years to secure the hemisphere once and for all before China gets their dirty paws on that neck of the woods.
Time to remove a bridge or two
Earthling2, your phrase “pre-contact” is some more of that Guns, Germs, and Steel nonsense. China is making major inroads in Latin America and Africa, it appears to me because they don’t have problems with corruption. Normal folks want to get out if they can? Live Free or Die! Central America is blessed with the most agreeable climate possible, equatorial and almost never-changing. Post-contact the lifespan has doubled. Socialism, anyone?
“China is making major inroads in Latin America and Africa, it appears to me because they don’t have problems with corruption.”
Yeah well, now I know you don’t know much about what you talk Ron. China doesn’t have any any problems with corruption, eh? Really? I mean really, you gotta live in a real dark socialist cave somewhere to say something as stupid as that. You should read more, or better, travel more. Try going to SE Asia. Or even the opioid/meth crisis here. The Opium wars are being fought all over again, at least on the synthetics and illicit fentanyl being smuggled all over the planet. Although this time it is Chinese State sponsored Triads doing the dirty work with the full support of their fascist, plutocratic, thugerous evil regime. Look at the Philippines…it is now a Narco state run by a madman Presidenti who is the pet lapdog of President Xi, who is murdering his own people by the tens of thousand and now selling out the West Philippine Sea EEZ Spratly Islands where China’s 7 reclaimed island reefs in the South China Sea that are now fully militarized. No thank you, I don’t want to see much of China anywhere in this hemisphere.
Earthling2, China just pays the bribe, that is what it means they don’t have any problem with corruption. I have been in SE Asia and personally watched a Chinese spy/comando killed. China is making inroads in third world countries because they are extremely corrupt-they just bribe their way in.
Hi Ron,
I think that when you say “they don’t have problems with corruption”
You actually meant to say “they have no qualms about corruption”
Not having problems means no corruption in China nor Latin America.
Not having qualms means they don’t care even if the whole world is corrupt.
Second migrant caravan storms into Mexico: ‘Violent’ group from Central America carrying BOMBS and guns defies a huge police presence to cross the border from Guatemala as Trump deploys 5,200 troops
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6331353/Second-migrant-caravan-storms-Mexico.html
Just an hour ago, this directive has come from the United Nations:
https://truepundit.com/united-nations-trump-must-allow-caravan-migrants-into-america/
Third migrants’ caravan scheduled to leave El Salvador within the next week
The number of migrants traveling through Mexico could soon reach 10,000
https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/third-migrants-caravan/
Ron Long,
“Banana Republican land” is the land of “Banana Republics”.
Run Short: won’t you learn to think before to blame.
Earthling2 – October 29, 2018 at 11:45 pm
The name “Banana Republic” had/has nothing to do with the use of the land in Central America or with any greedy class of citizens.
The term was actually coined to describe who was actually wielding the “political control” over the people and the economy.
And that “political control” was being wielded by the United Fruit Company, an American corporation that traded in tropical fruit, primarily bananas, …. Chiquita Brand bananas.
Samual says, “to wit”…
“The name “Banana Republic” had/has nothing to do with the use of the land in Central America or with any greedy class of citizens.”
“And that “political control” was being wielded by the United Fruit Company, an American corporation that traded in tropical fruit, primarily bananas, …. Chiquita Brand bananas.”
You make my point Sam, that the use of land was being profiteered by the utilization of banana republic politics, which was installing a greedy class of local ruling class that allowed the foreign corporations to monopolize the land and profits for their own use, while utilizing the marginalized local poor folk to do all the work for next to nothing. This has led to a lot of the struggles the last 100+ years, since 1898 and the Spanish-American war, and these problems still echo today. Somedays I think you just argue for the sake of argument.
“You make my point Sam,”
Yes, I knew I was, ……. but the term “banana republic” does not define a specific country or population ……. anymore than does the term “third world country”.
The United States with the support of the United Nations began that “effort” about a half century ago. Where has our effort gotten us?
I notice a curious failure to mention the human sacrificing, ‘our way or death’ practices of the Mayans in C. America which made the Spanish so appealing to the other tribes who in fact allied WITH the Spanish.
Recall that in all of Peru the Spaniards never, ever went above total of 190 men, yep, 190.
The non-Incan tribes were so appalled by the violent practices of the all conquering Incas that they too allied with the Spaniards. Same story as in C. America.
I think you are “dissing” the Aztecs.
In modern history lessons, Columbus taught them how to conduct “Flower Wars”.
He was the cause of all the bad stuff those people did to each other after (and even before) he got there.
(His “badness” even spread to the North American Native Americans!)
The whole “New World” was only populated by “The Noble Savage” before he showed up.
They weren’t subject to human frailties like the rest of Humanity until he showed up.
Commenters on this website rightly ridicule the suggestion that the march from Central America is driven by climate change. Yet the absurdity is not limited to The Guardian. Earthing2 makes the absurd suggestion that economic strife in Central America was somehow (not elaborated) connected to the Spanish Inquisition. You can add that one to “the stupid, it burns like white phosporous” department.
Alba, you’re to be commended for calling out [what you see as] hypocrisy. Just bear in mind that we blog commenters aren’t traditionally held to the same standards of evidence as journalists, nor should we be.
Other than that, carry on.
Alba,
The primary purpose of the Encomienda system was to indoctrinate the Indians in the Catholic faith. That was one of the reasons for exploration and claiming distant lands for the Crown, which was to promote Christianity and Catholicism through Spanish conquest. The Indians were expected to pay a tribute to the Spanish Conquistadors in return for protection and religious instruction. The Spanish Conquistadors, while personally on conquest for territory and riches, were also hand in hand with the Catholic Church who were employing the methods of the Inquisition to convert to Christianity or severely punish the local Indian folk that didn’t.
In this case it was the Spanish Conquistadors ruling with Catholic Inquisition powers. Any student of history knows that the Spanish Inquisition was brutally employed for centuries across Central America and beyond. That serious and permanent damage was done to the cultures of Mesoamerica is indisputable. Combined with further Imperialism from Spain and North America, suffering centuries of slavery and a brutal drug war, and now being ruled through a seriously corrupt presidential form of local governance, they are now a very unstable society after 500 years of these major problems. My comment was for them to stay home and hopefully America and the world could help improve their governance and economic conditions. When I offer my opinion that these are deeply seated historical problems embedded in the region and culture, all you offered was a cheap ad hominem. Alba, if you have any significant different ideas what went wrong with Central America historically, then why not elaborate what they are? I did.
Excerpt from commentary of: Earthling2 – October 30, 2018 at 11:21 am
“HA”, posting your “daydreaming“ thoughts such as above might get you a recommendation for a clinical “observation”.
Not only is America’s “governance and economic conditions” in disrepair, ….. but every attempt by America in the past 70 or so years to help improve the governance and economic conditions of another county ….. have all resulted in the expenditure of “billions/trillions-of-American-dollars” only to make matters worse for the chosen country.
Samuel, maybe I am daydreaming and wishing upon a star, although we could all use some clinical observation, especially as we get old and our brains begin to shrivel. I still think America and the West is the best hope for the world, if anyone is to be doing any meddling. Central America is probably better off with American meddling than it would have been if the Soviet’s had done as much meddling as they wanted to do. Chile, and by contrast, Cuba, and now Venezuela are examples of that. Afghanistan with Soviet occupation led to a failed state that led to a direct assault on America thru 911. Obviously, with Saudi extremest religious extremism as the philosophical rationalism.
My point being, that it all could be a lot worse had it not been for American intervention of one kind or the other. If we want to stabilize this hemisphere, then we are best to improve the economic conditions of Central America, perhaps through trade arrangements that favour GDP growth. And promoting better self governance. A hungry, poor and terrorized region like some of the failed states of Central America adds to our own national security threat in the long run.
Right you are, Earthling2, …… but you will just be pissing more money down a “rathole” by continuing what the USA has been doing for the past 50 years in the attempt to improve the economic conditions of Central America, The people have to be educated and a democratic “Rule-of-Law” government installed.
“And before that, of course, it was the Spanish Inquisition visited upon by said and a corrupt Catholic Church.”
And before that it was the Mayans and the Incas.
I am not a Catholic but your statement about the Catholic church is Bull. The Catholic church fought against the abuse of the indigenous peoples. But according to Spanish law, the church was subordinate to the state and they basically said to the church ‘F you.’
Richard, history is complex, and as it seems, never easily black and white. You are of course correct in some aspects, such as fairly early after the conquest, individual priests and some entire Orders within the Catholic Church were indeed against the cruel and harsh treatment of the natives. But these were pleadings to the king and court of Spain which did enact laws that in some ways were the early beginnings of the human rights movements. But the new world was a long way away and there was much infighting not only between political appointees but also between the missionaries themselves within many different Orders and regions later on.
The Church in Rome had the official Church dogma that was that if the Indians remained unconverted, they were heathens and subject to the same harsh retribution as the Inquisition or subject to slavery. Even if they did convert, in many cases slavery was still considered just, because it instilled a good work ethic for the numerous plantations or mines. But the New World was large, and numerous tribes remained unconverted, and they did not enjoin in any benefit that was afforded to the converted Indians. There have been many books written on this, and much of it remains controversial to this day. But this is some of the historical context that evolved over time that we find ourselves in today, which is part of the reason why these people are wanting to escape to a promised land such as we see today.
Yes, this is another example of the sad demise of the Guardian as a news organization. It may have got rid of the egregious Nucittelli and the rest of the Skeptical Science crew, but the underlying corruption of its reporting by its activist agenda is there, as strong as ever.
This is basically an opinion piece, and as such there is nothing wrong with it were it to be on the Op-Ed pages and the work of a columnist and labelled as such.
Its a completely nutty opinion of course. There is no attempt made to show that the climate has warmed so much as to have a strong effect on agriculture, no attempt made to show when it happened, what specifically the effects were. No attempt made to show that any fluctuations are outside the boundary of random movements of climate variables over the last 50 – 100 years.
But if someone like Monbiot in an opinion piece were to voice such views, one would say that he is nuts, but that’s his opinion and there is no reason the Guardian should not publish it.
The caravan is also legitimate news. There are thousands of people walking a very long way north to escape what are basically a mass of failed states. Whether they are financed by the US left, who knows? I have seen it asserted but never with hard evidence. Whatever, the fact that it is happening is legitimate news.
The thing that is so wrong is publishing the explanation of the caravan in terms of global warming as if it were a properly sourced news story. As indeed it would be wrong to publish an explanation in terms of left financing and instigation as if that were properly sourced, but without citing the evidence.
I think the people running the Guardian at the moment, and for the last 10-20 years, genuinely do not know the difference between news and comment, genuinely do not know what fact checking means, have no idea what independent journalism is, and think that the thing the Guardian is there for is to get the rest of the world to do whatever strikes them today as being important.
This is the explanation (the evidence for it being the publication itself) of why the Guardian is increasingly taken up by a weird collection of unrelated advocacies of programs that, one supposes, have caught the fancy of some influential member of the editorial board.
If only these people would take their activism seriously, and get down to joining a political party and working out a coherent program and trying to sell it to voters. Instead of sitting in Hampstead or Islington suddenly deciding that, for example, self declaration of gender is the next big thing to push.
Some of us mind. Some of us remember when the Liberal Party was the legitimate heir to a long liberal tradition, in the old British sense. And when the Guardian still continued the legacy of C P Scott in more than name.
You can’t read it to get informed about the news any more. Very sad.
“There are thousands of people walking a very long way north to escape what are basically a mass of failed states.”
They ain’t walking. A column of men, women and children don’t walk two thousand miles in a few weeks. It’s a physical impossibility.
Someone is providing transport, and someone is providing food and other support for the column. The whole thing is a stunt staged for the election.
I read that they refused refugee status offered by Mexico. More indication of pure political agenda. One wonders where the money and resources to move what amounts to an army more miles per day than a trained army would move?
Follow the money. Southwest Key has received over $300M from the US Govt so far this year. Catholic, Baptist & Lutheran Charities have gotten millions more as well, to assist the unaccompanied minors once they reach the US. So you, the taxpayer, are funding child trafficking.
IF they are persuaded to turn around and return to their homes or if they are stopped and forced to turn around, do you reckon they will receive the same kind of support for their return trip? I reckon not. This has become a matter of “the path of least resistance” for those who have joined this so-called “caravan” with the path to the North being made easy by donors and organizers and by being on their own with just their own devices for any who should decide to return to where they came from. For some it is likely that the ‘rough’ time they are experiencing now is an improvement over the day-to-day lives they lived before they left their home countries. Turn back? Not a chance. Not even if they were facing a policy of summary execution for all who cross the border illegally.
The “Guardian” gave up being “Liberal” when it moved from Manchester to London, and dropped the word “Manchester” from its masthead. And the “Liberal Party” got badly contaminated when it absorbed the Social Democratic Party and became the “Liberal Democrat Party”. The Social Democratic Party was a split off the Labour Party.
It has been well remarked that adding “Social” in a body’s title reverses what the title would otherwise mean. Thus “Social Justice” means no justice.
— Dudley Horscroft
Yes, your points are all very true, and very sad.
its activist agenda is there, as strong as ever.
Just cheaper.
Well this is good news for the US.
If they’re really farmers fleeing climate change, they won’t go north of the equator, since that’s the most fecund area for plant growth.
No army needed, just put refrigerators (doors open) along the “wall” and they’ll turn around!
Not much plant growth in refrigerators. My vegies go soft and sloppy very quickly!
“can be traced back to the region’s cold war conflicts.”
Ah yes the Cold War. That was the precursor of Global Warming no doubt. I see what they were thinking now.
plus many
The unseen driver behind the migrant caravan as being climate change is truly unseen as it is simply not there. Those who know the area, know that the weather and climate has not change in any discernible manner in living memory. The cause is political, educational, economic, from drug crime and social inequality and it is nothing to do with weather or the climate.
It must be true, because it was said by unnamed “experts”.
This caravan is the MAGAbomber of the Democrats. Talk about bad timing, “climate change” shills can’t spin that away.
If they lose ground in the election they can then claim a conspiracy, ______ (insert name) interfered with result .
The ClimateChangeCult is becoming a strong movement, almost a crusade for the believers to hate ‘the others’; seems a typical Homo Sapien drive probably caused by the chemicals neurotransmitters Dopamine & Serotonin, rather than the good green photosynthesising essential life giving trace gas we all love, but being victimised by those chemicals.
So Anthony,
I am curious. Who exactly do you think are paying these people? There is absolutely no evidence to suggest
that this is the case. Rather the caravan is exactly what it appears to be – desperate people fleeing for their lives following the belief of millions of others that the USA is the “last best hope of earth”.
so “climate change” stops at the border?
Of course. Read the science of climate justice. For instance, we know climate change effectlvely stops at the 38th parallel. North Koreans, having never heard of man-made global warming, will obviously be spared the worst impacts, while their cousins to the South of the DMZ won’t be quite so lucky—they’ll feel the full brunt of our changing temperature. Having been repeatedly warned about it and chosen to do nothing, the man on the street in Seoul can hardly expect any more leniency from Mother Climate than his fellow capitalist drone in Seattle, or Shanghai.
I won’t pretend I don’t get just a little satisfaction from the fates in store for the most unrepentant polluter nations. Oh, sure, they can snicker at us “gullibilists” Down Under—for now. But when the ecological bill comes due, I’ll be the one asking: who’s the @rse end of the world now, huh, beaches?
“Who exactly do you think are paying these people?”
Someone who wants the Republicans to win this election?
“desperate people fleeing for their lives”
Is that why they turned down an offer to stay in Mexico?
PJ,
Depends on who you believe: Infowars or Factcheck.org.
Wouldn’t put it past Soros to fund this stunt.
Coin toss.
Percy Jackass probably believes Soros is just a kindly generous old man aswell no doubt, eee aww.
They have to eat, and they have to drink. Where is it coming from, and since they are all ‘poverty-stricken’, who is paying for it? I haven’t seen any close up photos, but I would bet the majority are fit young men, not starving peasants with their wives and children.
Yes, “desperate people fleeing” who are also filing a class action lawsuit with 5th amendment due process as a cause of action:
“A dozen migrants traveling by foot from Honduras to the U.S. to seek asylum filed a class-action lawsuit Thursday against President Trump, the Department of Homeland Security and others, claiming a violation of their due process under the Fifth Amendment.”
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/migrants-traveling-to-us-sue-trump-government-claim-violation-of-constitutional-rights
Of course, Percy…they’re just poor migrants coming to the US for a new life…aren’t they?
Presumably the climate isn’t changing in the US then? Why does climate change only effect badly governed craphole countries? It seems to be a little bit selective for a supposedly global phenomenon.
It used to be witch doctors claiming to have the bigger picture. Now its the UN & The Guardian.
“Migrants don’t often specifically mention ‘climate change’ as a motivating factor for leaving because the concept is so abstract and long-term,” Albro said, “and isn’t a motivating factor for leaving.”
Stephan Lewandowsky, a cognitive scientist at the University of Bristol, agrees. “And because climate change doesn’t make them migrate, it’s easy [for migrants] to deny its role in making them migrate.”
Lewandowsky is urgently calling for increased speculation into the exact mechanisms by which such denialism takes root in migrant populations in the first place—a problem that has so far received none of the attention or funding spent on “sexier” mental health issues, such as the skepticism epidemic among young blonde women.
“Yet most of these [caravanners] come from deep in the Amazon basin and have probably never seen a white, libertarian man in their lives. It’s therefore astonishing to hear them spout, word for word, the same science-dismissive memes we once believed were safely confined to the strip malls of Flyover County, Podunk City.
“And if you’ve heard one of these [people], you’ve heard them all.
“It’s not happening,” he paraphrases in a generic ‘Latino’ lilt. “I’ve never heard of this climate crisis—are you drunk?—leave me alone—no, I don’t want to take your poorly-designed survey—go away before I call la policia.”
It sounds all too familiar, that’s for sure. But who could have coached them, I wonder?
“Well, we may never really get to the bottom of that. All we know in this life is that there are no coincidences, that the Subterranean War on Science knows no borders, and that Latent Factor Analysis is our only hope of unpacking what, if anything, makes such people tick.”
Short of asking them, I add.
“Haha! Yeah, great idea,” says Lewandowsky with a chuckle. “Let’s just walk up to these swarthy esquépticos and strike up a friendly conversation. Because that works so well, and never results in attacks on our research culminating in retraction, humiliation or worse!”
Brad it’s just even more fun than usual when you come around.
Brad…you did humour. lewpaper ..
roflmao
We did have climate refugees in the dirty thirties. link So, such a thing is possible. My parents didn’t migrate but their stories were horrific.
Breaking news: I’m just listening to a news report on the radio. The caravan is organized by folks with megaphones. There is transport.
Back to the dirty thirties:
The drought in the dirty thirties was to be expected.
Conditions in the dirty thirties were exacerbated by bad farming practices. The other problem was that, when there was enough rain for a crop, prices were at record lows. As far as I can tell, the conditions affecting the migrants do not approach the devastation of the dirty thirties.
A quick google doesn’t give me any information about the historical climate conditions affecting these migrants. Are they living in normally good farm land? Are they recent settlers on land that should never have been farmed in the first place?
Check.
Actually, if you believe the propaganda, climate change is suppose to be worse the farther away from the equator one is so they should be heading south and not north.
Ha! Try telling malaria that.
It’s safely confined to the third world, for now…. but how much longer will our great-grandchildren be safe from its polewards Wanderlust? Great-grandad, where were you when history devolved upon us the moral imperative to start acting before human activity imperils our very neighborhoods?
“Oh, I was making pedantic objections to the science online instead of taking action to stop human activities before it was too late! Sorry, Timmy! Here, have a gin and tonic!”
Odd that someone would wake up one morning and decide that he is desperately poor and seriously affected by climate change and decide to walk 2000 miles without money (He’s poor remember) food (What can you get in a back pack) , clothing, sanitary facilities etc etc.
Odd that on the same morning 5000 other people wake up with the same thought.
One might think there is a little bit of manipulation going on here if one were cynical.
Ivor Ward
Agree 100%.
One might also imagine these poverty stricken people had access to mass communications, like smartphones, computers etc.
It is interesting, however, that nothing about any organisational operation behind it has been leaked. Marching several thousand people 2,000 miles without transport, in a few days, is as MarkG pointed out in a comment several above this, impossible.
Just some beer mat calculations on the logistics:
Could they have walked?
Say 3,000 people walking 2,000 miles at an average speed of 4 MPH (fast for a group this size).
= 2,000/4 MPH = 500 Hours.
10 hours walking per day (ambitious) = 50 days.
Food
Say $1 per day per person = $3,000 per day.
Food for 50 days = $150,000
Water
Say 1 Litre of water per person, per day (not much for walking 10 hours per day) = 150,000 Litres of water. Forget the purchase cost, that all must be transported as no village or town will have that amount readily and reliably available. Bearing in mind it must be transportable so probably bottled water which is expensive.
That doesn’t include transportation of the food, nor preparation, nor equipment, nor dealing with refuse etc.
Shelter
Tents? Say $100 per tent to sleep 4 people = 750 tents. Or maybe they slept on the buses, unless they were walking then tents are a minimum requirement.
= $75,000
Sanitation
I wouldn’t know where to start but the consequences of 3,000 people shitting at the side of the road every day doesn’t bear thinking about.
So would using transport be any more practical?
Transport
3,000 people/50 per bus = 60 buses
2,000 miles @ 20 MPG per bus = 100 gallons per bus.
= 6,000 gallons total
@ $5 per gallon = $30,000
+ Bus rental per day @ say £500 per bus per week = $30,000
Total for transport = $60,000.
Then add in food, shelter, sanitation etc. and it’s clear this is a major operation that just doesn’t happen off the cuff. Someone with access to considerable funds is organising this effort.
There must also be some form of health provision even if its free. Nurses or doctors walking with these people as 50 days walking would produce at the very least blisters, sprains, fatigue, dehydration etc.
Now take all the relevant numbers and double them because there’s no guarantee these refugees won’t be turned away at any border, at any time and they’ll be forced to do the return trip.
No one in their right mind would embark on this type of journey without a contingency for its failure.
And a two day delay at any border would see the waste from 3,000 people having to be collected and disposed of.
Sorry if anyone has already done this exercise, WUWT isn’t responding well and posts seem delayed.
No one in their right mind would embark on this type of journey without a contingency for its failure.
It’s no-doubt backed by leftists/globalists, in which case there is no one in their right mind behind this.
Who is cleaning up the waste? And then there is the really smelly waste to deal with also. Looks like a recipe for an outbreak of something.
An outbreak of San Fransicoitis?
Gunga,
‘San Franciscoitis’ is defined as irritation of the San Francisco. Is that what you meant?
I wonder if perhaps you really wanted to say San Franciscosis, the broad term for San Francisco syndrome.
Sure, it’s not as funny, but then, there’s nothing funny about the effects on patients’ lives.
Medical Definition of itis
: a disease characterized by inflammation
But I was replying to Usurbrain’s comment about cleaning up the waste of these caravans.
San Francisco is becoming famous for a similar problem in their streets.
PS I wonder what the California EPA has to say about it? (They warn us about everything else.) Letting a bunch of crap get into storm drains is a big no-no in most cities in the US.)
I thought the “climate refugees” were supposed to migrate to Antarctica, according to climate experts.
I can think of nothing that would convince people more persuasively that alarmist claims of global warming are bunk than if some in the caravan were to say that they are climate refugees.
I dunno, climate change must be happening because I certainly see many people buying winter vacation homes in Cape Cod rather than Florida.
Actually, the poor economic choice of collectivism is to blame.
The same collectivism these people who make the assertions want to impose on us all.
There is an order of magnitude more Canadian climate refugee’s heading south down the CANAMEX Corridor about now, and they too appear to be in a Caravan. Oh wait, they are pulling their own trailers behind trucks it looks like, but they trying real hard to get as close to states next to Mexico as possible. Mostly real climate refugees though. Seems to happen every year.
But their theme song has better lyrics:
Beneath this snowy mantle cold and clean
The unborn grass lies waiting
For its coat to turn to green
The snowbird sings the song he always sings
And speaks to me of flowers
That will bloom again in spring
Americans, there is a solution : close the whole bloody Mexican border. If the border is closed to all attempted entrants the mob of ‘refugees’ from Central America will go home.
Written by an Australian who in 2013, helped elect a government that turned back the boats…Effectively the we closed our border to all boat people.
This might also have the beneficial ‘side effect’ of bringing home quite a lot of jobs that have gone South to Mexico with NAFTA.
I agree on closing the border, but that alone won’t stop them, they’ll just attempt slip across the border illegally (same as always). While we’ll catch many of them, many more will get through. Need to build the wall.
Make it a big one.
There are millions of poor desperate people in so many countries all around the world. Once they lived unaware that life was better elsehwere.
Courtesy of facebook etc.with family & friends telling them, they now know that life is better in the West and want to live there even though they have no right to do.
Make no mistake, they will be hailed and crowed as the world’s first (and certainly not to be the last) “climate refugees” in Katowice this December.
It’s the Guardian they publish stuff like this…
“How has Bismarck escaped most of the blame for the first world war?”
I think it was something to do with him being 16 years dead before it started……
Once again, we have another baseless claim of the horrible effects of climate change without a single reference or mention of any evidence that the climate has actually changed in these locations, much less any explanation as to how the alleged change resulted in the alleged ‘problem’. The full article has anecdotes from farmers saying: ““In past years, it rained on time. My plants produced, but there’s no longer any pattern [to the weather].” It would have been much more newsworthy if they found a farmer that DID NOT complain about the vagaries of weather. If that is the evidence for man-made climate change, then it started thousands of years ago when humans started farming, because farmers have been complaining about the weather since the very beginning! (With good reason!)
The real reason for the Caravan (in honor of the season), is that Michael Myers left Haddonfield, Illinois and moved to Central America with his hockey mask. The refugees don’t talk about it much (just like climate change), but that is the ‘TRUE’ reason for the caravan. And I have just as much evidence to back it up as the Guardian has for their ‘man-made-climate-change’ fictional boogeyman.
Early migration into Canada and the US was driven be the concept that the streets were paved with gold. That is to say that they driven by oppression to where there was minimal oppression. About the “gold” streets was that what you earned your got to keep most of it. Immigrants that were ten years ahead and were settled in ghettos helped those that followed.
Today’s migrants are also compelled by streets of gold. Now the corrupt attractions of the welfare state offered by Democrats, their bureaucracy and media. All based upon the concept that most will vote Democrat.
Some 30 years ago I attended a lunch whereby the key speaker was a recently retired deputy minister at the Department of Immigration in Ottawa.
He listed some 5 key regulations and one by one noted the governing Liberals betrayal of them.
Why?
He reviewed each one and pointed out that the system had be corrupted to favour those likely to go on welfare and vote Liberal–forever.
Canada’s Liberals and America’s Democrats don’t care how much they corrupt the culture of each country, just so long as they have power.
Who cares. let em in. CA will take care of them, free everything, drivers licenses and voting. Ill just move.
If it was only Cali that would be taken care of them, unfortunately it’s not, it’s all the rest of the nation as well. Unless you are planning to leave the US entirely, moving won’t help you.
“Who cares. let em in.”
If we do, then there will be no stopping of the invasion. Millions of people will be headed this way expecting us to support them with money, health care and housing.
Trump said he was not going to allow this batch of illegals loose in the United States. He said he would build internment camps where the illegals would be required to stay until they got a hearing before an immigration judge. So no more “catch and release” according to Trump.
Of course, this will be challenged in court and some Liberal judge will legislate from the bench and put a hold on Trump’s order, but Trump will prevail in the end when it goes to the Supreme Court because the U.S. Constitution clearly gives the president the authority to deny entry to any illegal alien. And Trump may request an expidited hearing by the Supreme Court.
Trump also said he was going to sign an Executive Order stopping the granting of U.S. citizenship to children born to non-Americans. This will also be challenged in court and we’ll see where it goes.
Ultimately, Congress has to address all these issues and write new laws. An Executive Order is only temporary. As Obama found out.
Indeed. an EO is a good temporary fix, but it requires follow up legislative action from congress or it risks being undone the next time a the other party gets in the white house. As, you point out, Obama found out.
It may not be the best solution, but it does have a certain allure. Let them all come! At some point we will no longer be able to provide enough welfare to make everyone’s life a utopia. When that point is reached, climate change won’t matter. There will be internal strife to the point that illegals will become pariahs and deported. There will be proof that open borders just won’t work and the wall will be built. My only hope is that the billionaires that want open borders will end up being taxed so badly that they see the errors of their way.
I fail to see the allure of something that will cause all of us no end of misery in the false hope that some billionaires will somehow see the error of their ways.
The Russian foreign divisiveness teams could learn a lot from The Guardian.
Blaming the problems of Central America on the Cold War is about par for the Guardian’s ignorant and stupid course. Or sub-par.
Since Independence from Spain, Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador and Nicaragua have been dominated by oligarchs and military dictatorships. Costa Rica, not so much. The USSR did indeed try to benefit from such historical tyranny, and the US backed the peasants and Indians fighting against Communist regimes and rebels there. But the Cold War wasn’t the cause of the violence and poverty from which the refugees are fleeing. It predated 1945 by over 120 years.
Ike did back the opponent of a pro-Communist Guatemalan president, but not at the behest of the United Fruit Company-dominated CIA, as cartoonish Leftwing propaganda had it at the time. And Reagan did support the Contras in Nicaragua, but when free elections were held, the Communists were thrown out. Ortega managed to weasel his way back into power by rigged voting, so that now Nicargua once again suffers from political violence. Reagan also backed the Right in El Salvador against the Left. Had he not done so, these states today would be far worse off than Venezuela, lacking as they do oil.
El Salvador is a coffee republic rather than banana. A buddy of my brother’s flew Corsairs in the 1969 Football War with Honduras.
Climate change hasn’t hammered the tropical region, but Hurricane Mitch did devastate Honduras 20 years ago. After the 2009 coup there, gang violence has probably worsened, while poverty has not been ameliorated.
The US accepts more asylum-seekers than any other country. There is a limit to how many we can admit, especially when most are actually economic refugees, not truly in danger for their beliefs, ethnicity or religion. We could of course absorb 10,000 more carefully screened refugees, but not the ten million who would follow them, if successful in gaining entry.
In all truthfulness, it could just as easily be the Russians financing this caravan, as it is the Democrats or their monied supporters. The Russians would still be interfering in the election, except that they wouldn’t be directly doling out any dollars stateside. Or the Chinese, Iranian’s or Nork’s. Anyone with an axe to grind with the USA has a perfect opportunity here to be meddling from afar. Whoever has a vested interest in seeing Trump and the Republicans take a hit in the mid terms. Pretty much every one I mentioned and probably more, including maybe even friendlies because they got called out for issues of their own including the whole Paris Accord issue which is sort of the central issue of this post, that it is some absurd claim that it is climate change driving the caravan. No pun intended..
And I have no doubt that someone is meddling financially with all these people getting up one morning and deciding they are joining the caravan. They have horribly messed up living conditions where they are and are desperate for a change, but I can’t fathom that somebody doesn’t have their dirty mitts all over this with money. Wouldn’t even cost a whole lot to do so…which is a problem when we have so many enemies.
The Guardian article is fabricated by people who must think their readers are all as thick as
Here’s a slightly different perspective on all this. Perhaps because I’ve been around for quite a few years, I’ve seen changes. Mexico in the 1960s was a dump. Mexico in the 2010s looks to have a level of prosperity that Ireland in the 1960s hadn’t achieved.
Two important reasons that so many migrants from Central America are trying to get to the USA, and so many African migrants are trying to get to Europe are (1) because their countries have a level of prosperity that wasn’t there a couple of generations ago and (2) global communications – which are really two facets of the same thing – 20th century development and cheap energy. They have television, they have smartphones, they have the internet; they can see the level of prosperity that ordinary folk have in those countries.
And there’s money around in their countries, in quantities that were never there before. We’re always reading about large payments to “human smugglers” who are paid to ferry migrants across the Mediterranean. This money comes from somewhere. Apart from the present “caravan” – which is obviously being organised by someone – there has been a constant stream of migrants into the US for years now, mostly travelling under their own power. They can afford to travel!
It’s a bit paradoxical, but the more prosperous a “third world” country becomes, the more its poor people can see – vicariously – the even greater prosperity, even of poor people in rich countries, and the easier it is for them to get to a rich country and try to grab a piece of that greater prosperity.
It’s a problem and there are no easy answers. And I can’t for the life of me figure out why the “progressives” want to help migrants, when their own countries (I mean the “progressives” own countries) can only absorb a certain small percentage of their own populations each year.
Most of which doesn’t apply to Syrians. If your own government was dropping bombs on you, wouldn’t you want to go somewhere else?
PS – Anthony – from the Linguistic Pedantry Department, it’s “phosphorus”. “Phosphorous” describes the lower-valency state of anionic phosphorus, and it’s opposed to “phosphoric”, the higher valency state. Common mistake, and I’ll let you off this time.
In the US, Progressives want immigrants to vote for their candidates.
Another change from past conditions besides greater wealth in Central America is the fact that no so much in the US is free for recent immigrants, to include education, health care, even housing and cell phones. And illegal immigrants can get away with crimes for which a citizen would be prosecuted, as diverse as littering, insurance fraud, manslaughter, starting a forest fire or driving without a license or insurance. Although sanctuary states like California of course give illegal aliens licenses and register them to vote at the same time.
Trump being bashed here in the Australian MSM (Not a single day passes without a Trump bashing article at the SMH).
https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/donald-trump-flags-end-to-ridiculous-citizenship-rights-20181030-p50d0b.html
Hang on Australia! Children born in Australia to New Zealand citizens for instance are New Zealand citizens in Australia and, therefore, temporary residents. And you criticise the PotUS for wanting something similar for the US?
“…In 2005, the United Nations Environment Programme predicted that climate change would create 50 million climate refugees by 2010…”
As we learned yesterday, the 2010 value of climate refugees needs to be based on the 30-year period 1995 through 2024, so there is still time for it to come true.
Being the jaded cynic that I am, I’ll put this out as the real driver of the migrant caravans, money. Apparently, people smuggling pays five times better than drug smuggling. That’s where the drug gangs and money laundering banks are shifting their efforts. All the talk about the Marrakesh Accord is just a cover, the players can pretend their motive is globalist ideology and not greed. The bleeding hearts opposing border controls and assisting the “undocumented migrants” are either naive dupes or part of the racket.
When I lived in Britain, The Grauniad (spelt like that because it was famous for its typos) was my daily paper. But the only things I go to it for now are its nice Sudokus and excellent cryptic crosswords.
Ever heard about diesel origin:
https://www.google.at/search?client=ms-android-samsung&ei=64nZW_rfHoGqsAH4vYlY&ins=false&q=bmw+isetta+english+&oq=bmw+isetta+english+&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-serp.
Oh and the UN’s IPCC scientists tell us that there really wont be any climate change in the tropics. It is to gradually appear and increase as you move poleward where the warming will be enhanced. In the temperate zones, nearly all 5he warming will occur at night and 8n the winter. What happened to that. Indeed, WUWT?
Here’s a little information on the president’s authority to deny entry to illegal aliens.
http://myattorneyusa.com/scope-and-history-of-section-212f-presidential-authority-to-suspendrestrict-entry-by-proclamation
Scope and History of Section 212(f) Presidential Authority to Suspend/Restrict Entry by Proclamation
Statute
Section 212(f) of the INA reads as follows:
f. Suspension of entry or imposition of restrictions by President
Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate.”
end excerpt
Even though the wording is clear, having only one possible meaning, there will be a liberal judge who will say he cannot do what the law says he can do.
So Trump will ask for an expedited ruling from the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court will rule in his favor, especially now that Gorsuch and Kavanaugh are on the court.
MEMO TO POTUS: Sidestep immigrations laws and constitutional limitations by sending troops into Mexico to deal with the “caravan” on Mexican soil. No need to declare war. No requirement to grant assylum hearings, no court date, no children in cages, etc. Not an invasion by force or an excursion like in the Border Wars (1910-1919). Rather a violation of Mexico’s border similar to that committed by the caravan itself. Sauce for the goose… Spread dollars about liberally in the process to win over the locals, police and so on. Maybe pay a fine? Stop them say five hundred miles south of our border.
Putting up a border wall would be easier. No need to invade Mexico. Economic sanctions would be enough. But we are not even close to getting to that point yet. Mexico’s politicians seem to be cooperating for the most part.
If Trump restricts the illegal aliens to internment camps along the border and does not release them to disappear into the United Staes, then those who would follow in their footsteps might decide it wasn’t worth it.
If people want to live in the United States they need to do it legally. This message needs to be sent.