Trump was 100% right (not just 97%) to show real leadership and walk away from Paris
President Trump has rejected and exited the Paris climate treaty ā walked America away from the Mad Hatter tea party that was the entire multi-decade, often hysterical and always computer model-driven UN climate process. My article this week explains why this bold move was the 100% right, ethical, moral and scientific thing to do: for the economic security of American workers and families ā¦ and the betterment of all mankind.
Guest essay by Paul Driessen
I can guess why a raven is like a writing-desk, Alice said. āDo you mean you think you can find out the answer?ā said the March Hare. āExactly so,ā said Alice. āThen you should say what you mean,ā the March Hare went on. āI do,ā Alice replied. āAt least I mean what I say. That’s the same thing, you know.ā
āNot the same thing a bit!ā said the Hatter. āYou might just as well say, āI see what I eatā is the same thing as āI eat what I seeā!ā āYou might just as well say,ā added the Dormouse, āI breathe when I sleepā is the same thing as āI sleep when I breatheā!ā āIt IS the same thing with you,ā said the Hatter.
Can you imagine stumbling upon the Mad Hatterās tea party, watching as the discussions become increasingly absurd ā and yet wanting a permanent seat at the table? Could Lewis Carroll have been having nightmares about the Paris climate treaty when he wrote Aliceās Adventures in Wonderland?
President Trump was 100% correct (not just 97%) when he showed true leadership this week ā and walked America away from the madness laid out before him and us on the Paris climate table.
From suggestions that Earthās climate was balmy and stable until the modern industrial era, to assertions that humans can prevent climate change and extreme weather events by controlling atmospheric carbon dioxide levels ā to claims that withdrawing from Paris would āimperil our planetās very survivalā ā the entire process has been driven by computer models and hysteria that have no basis in empirical science.
There is no convincing real-world evidence that plant-fertilizing carbon dioxide has replaced the powerful natural forces that have driven Earthās climate from time immemorial. Moreover, even if the United States totally eliminated its fossil fuels, atmospheric CO2 levels would continue to climb. China and India are building new coal-fired power plants at a feverish clip. So is Germany. And China is financing or building dozens of additional coal-burning electricity generators in Africa, Asia and elsewhere.
Plus, even if alarmists are right about CO2, and every nation met its commitments under Paris, average planetary temperatures in 2100 would be just 0.2 degrees Celsius (0.3 F) lower than if we did nothing.
But āour closest alliesā wanted Trump to abide by Obamaās commitment. Some did, because they want America to shackle its economy and drive energy prices into the stratosphere the same way they have. Others dearly want to follow a real leader, and walk away from the mad Paris tea party themselves.
But even poor countries signed the Paris treaty. Yes, they did ā because they are under no obligation to reduce their coal, oil or natural gas use or their CO2 emissions. And because they were promised $100 billion a year in cash, plus free state-of-the-art energy technologies, from developed nations that would have become FMCs (formerly rich countries) as they slashed their energy use and de-industrialized.
But the Paris climate treaty was voluntary; the United States wouldnāt have to do all this. Right. Just like itās voluntary for you to pay your taxes. China, India and poor developing countries donāt have to do anything. But the USA would have been obligated to slash its oil, gas and coal use and carbon dioxide emissions. It could impose tougher restrictions, but it could not weaken them. And make no mistake: our laws, Constitution, legal system, the Treaty on Treaties and endless lawsuits by environmentalist pressure groups before friendly judges would have ensured compliance and ever more punishing restrictions.
But hundreds of companies say we should have remained in Paris. Of course they do. Follow the money.
If we are to avoid a climate cataclysm, āleading expertsā say, the world must impose a $4-trillion-per-year global carbon tax, and spend $6.5 trillion a year until 2030 to switch every nation on Earth from fossil fuels to renewable energy. Thatās a lot of loot for bankers, bureaucrats and crony corporatists.
But, they assure us, this transition and spending would bring unimaginable job creation and prosperity. If you believe that, youād feel right at home in Aliceās Wonderland and Looking Glass world.
Who do you suppose would pay those princely sums? Whose jobs would be secure, and whose would be expendable: sacrificed on the altar of climate alarmism? Hereās the Planet Earth reality.
Right now, fossil fuels provide 80% of all the energy consumed in the USA ā reliably and affordably, from relatively small land areas. Wind and solar account for 2% of overall energy needs, expensively and intermittently, from facilities across millions of acres. Biofuels provide 3% ā mostly from corn grown on nearly 40 million acres. About 3% comes from hydroelectric, 3% from wood and trash, 9% from nuclear.
Kentucky, Ohio, West Virginia and other states that generate electricity with our abundant coal and natural gas pay 8 to 10 cents per kilowatt-hour. California, Connecticut, New York and other states that impose wind, solar and anti-fossil fuel mandates pay 15 to 18 cents. Families in closely allied ultra-green Euro countries pay an average of 26 US cents per kWh, but 36 cents in Germany, 37 cents in Denmark.
EU manufacturers are already warning that these prices could send companies, factories, jobs and CO2 emissions to China and other non-Euro countries. EU electricity prices have skyrocketed 55% since 2005; 40% of UK households are cutting back on food and other essentials, to pay for electricity; a tenth of all EU families now live in green energy poverty. Elderly people are dying because they canāt afford heat!
The Paris treaty would have done the same to the United States, and worse.
The Heritage Foundation says Paris restrictions would cost average US families $30,000 in cumulative higher electricity prices over the next decade. How much of their rent, mortgage, medical, food, clothing, college and retirement budgets would they cut? Paris would eliminate 400,000 high-pay manufacturing, construction and other jobs ā and shrink the US economy by $2.5 trillion by 2027. Other analysts put the costs of remaining in Paris much higher than this ā again for no climate or environmental benefits.
Big hospitals like Wake Forest Baptist Medical Centerās Comprehensive Cancer Center in Winston-Salem, NC and Inova Fairfax Womenās and Childrenās Hospital in Northern Virginia pay about $1.5 million per year at 9 cents/kWh ā but $3 million annually at 18 cents ā¦ $5 million at 30 cents ā¦ and nearly $7 million at 40 cents. How many jobs and medical services would those rate hikes wipe out?
Malls, factories and entire energy-intensive industries would be eliminated. Like families and small businesses, they would also face the new reality of having pricey electricity when it happens to be available, off and on all day, all week, when the wind blows or sun shines, instead of when itās needed. Drilling and fracking, gasoline and diesel prices, trucking and travel, would also have been hard hit.
Americans are largely prohibited from mining iron, gold, copper, rare earth and other metals in the USA. Paris treaty energy prices and disruptions would have ensured that American workers could not turn metals from anywhere into anything ā not even wind turbines, solar panels or ethanol distillation plants.
Most of the ābountifulā renewable energy utopia jobs would have been transporting, installing and maintaining wind turbines and solar panels made in China. Even growing corn and converting it to ethanol would have been made cost-prohibitive. But there would have been jobs for bureaucrats who write and enforce the anti-energy rules ā and process millions of new unemployment and welfare checks.
Simply put, the Paris climate treaty was a terrible deal for the United States: all pain, no gain, no jobs, no future for the vast majority of Americans ā with benefits flowing only to politicians, bureaucrats and crony capitalists. President Trump refused to ignore the realities of this economic suicide pact, this attempted global government control of American lives, livelihoods and living standards.
That is why he formally declared that the United States is withdrawing from the treaty. He could now submit it for advice, consent ā and rejection ā by the Senate. He could also withdraw the United States from the underlying UN Framework Convention on Climate Change, or negotiate that reflects empirical science and is fair to America and its families and workers. But what is really important now is this:
We are out of Paris! President Trump is leading the world back from the climate insanity precipice.
Paul Driessen is senior policy analyst for the Committee For A Constructive Tomorrow (www.CFACT.org) and author of Eco-Imperialism: Green power – Black death.
Very good summary. Maybe we just need to concentrate more on the German energy situation and cost, effects on its business sector, hypocracy of Merkel, etc to drive the message home.
Trump believed the human body was like a battery, with a finite amount of energy, which exercise only depleted. This is the ramblings of a madman. Attention to all science deniers on the site. THIS IS YOUR GUY!!! Good luck with that!!!
Steve, instead of a fairly pathetic straw man, do go ahead and show us some science, along with your detailed math.
And you believe in unicorns. Good luck with that!!!
Steve should have put his second sentence first or perhaps last.
Dear Steve. Please look at this graph and tell me what the Paris Accord was supposed to accomplish?
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/05/31/in-one-graph-why-the-parisclimate-accord-is-useless/
NOTHING. Absolutely NOTHING. If you disagree please prove otherwise.
In Trump we trust!
steve June 2, 2017 at 4:04 pm
“Trump believed the human body was like a battery, with a finite amount of energy,”
steve the analogy is not a bad one for a laymen insofar as how the human body use energy, and how energy is created in the human body. All work requires energy in one form or another.
As for my use of the term “work” it is basic physics.
You will note that marathon runners must be hydrated with energy type drinks to prevent organ and heart failure. So yes energy is used in exercise and each person has a finite amount before the human body react to the depletion.
“This is the ramblings of a madman” Hmm perhaps but the madman is a lot saner than yourself, or at least better educated.
michael
Sure. Science is as follows. I will keep it simple. The more co2 we put into our atmosphere the more heat gets trapped therefore the planet warms and its caused by humans. Its been science that has stood for more than 100 years. But of course you all know better.
The more CO2 in the atmosphere, the more food, fuel, fodder, and feed can grow.
The warmer the atmosphere, the longer the growing season in the greater the areas.
The warmer the atmosphere, the fewer people dying of cold and disease, the greater the good for the greater the number of people.
The higher the energy prices, and the more restrictive the energy policies are, the greater the harm to the ever larger the number of innocents. Because you have chosen death for those innocents.
Poor Steve, seems the battery that ran your brain ran out ages ago.
Maybe take it to a recharging station ??
“The more co2 we put into our atmosphere the more heat gets trapped therefore the planet warms and its caused by humans.”
You know this because of an experiment in an enclosed glass bottle.. right ?
Do you live in an enclosed glass bottle ?
Do you REALLY think the Earth is an enclosed glass bottle.???.
“Steve June 3, 2017 at 12:09 am
The more co2 we put into our atmosphere the more heat gets trapped…”
Trapped? Really, how? I am really keen for you to explain that little nugget of scientific misunderstanding.
Steve June 3, 2017 at 12:09 am
“The more co2 we put into our atmosphere the more heat gets trapped therefore the planet warms and its caused by humans. Its been science that has stood for more than 100 years. But of course you all know better.”
Why did you switch topics?CO2 was not the subject of your conversation at
“steve June 2, 2017 at 4:04 pm” maybe if you focused on just one topic at a time you would not jump to false assertions.
Yes Co2 interaction with out going particles, but it is not enough on it’s own to create the effect you refer to. It needs to cause a runaway increase in water vapor. There are physical limits to how a atmosphere can react due to these effects. Distance from sun, it is why it is called the “Goldilocks zone”. Study the implication before you babble about like a “Climate Scientist”. Next of course is the sun itself, this is rather complex, due to factors like the TSI has changed over Earths existence. Presently TSI is stable and limits atmospheric change. Next is the earth itself, its mass, orbital particularities and diameter. Yes diameter, this in turn governs the gravity that hold the atmosphere. Which helps define the height of the atmosphere and its density. And last is of course geography locations of mountains and oceans. To put it simply you can’t get the run-away water vapor effect to cause the heating, it won’t stay in the atmosphere.
Its just how are planet is built steve , and why it never ever happened in the past with higher levels of CO2.
So relax enjoy the summer a recognize that you are living in a golden age. There is natural climate change it can worse colder much colder.
michael
Geronimo, a positive balance of trade does not make you richer. That is pure voodoo economics. The whole point of trade is imports, I.e. the goods and services I consume,not cash from exports – what’s the use of cash, if not to buy things to consume?
If your claim were true, then every country (and every individual) would aim to be a net exporter – see the problem with that?
I tell you what steve, you keep on exercising and don’t eat any food (recharging your battery) and see how long it is before you are hospitalised or dead.
you said that before with no proof, just repeating something over and over doesn’t make it true. That is magical thinking.Please calm down, for your own sake
I loved The Matrix!
TRUMP & AMERICA FTW
Poor Steve, [June 2, 2017 at 4:04 pm] me thinks his fondest dreams of a lucrative government career as a ādo nothingā bureaucrat who supervises the āclueless nā duelessā who write and enforce the anti-energy rules ā and process the millions of new unemployment and welfare checks ā¦ā¦. have just been dashed upon āthe rocks of realityā by President Donald Trump.
“Steve, instead of a fairly pathetic straw man, do go ahead and show us some science, along with your detailed math.”
Why should we bother, Phil? i’ve never seen that from the skeptic side. Just the usual 1) the data is corrupt 2) the scientists are corrupt 3) the data is biased by UHI so can’t be trusted 4) it’s all natural variation. Rinse and repeat.
“Steve June 3, 2017 at 12:09 am
Sure. Science is as follows. I will keep it simple. The more co2 we put into our atmosphere the more heat gets trapped therefore the planet warms and its caused by humans. Its been science that has stood for more than 100 years. But of course you all know better”
The series 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 +………..1/(2^n)+……. keeps increasing forever, but the series has a limit.
Chris June 3, 2017 at 5:08 am
“Why should we bother, Phil?”
Because it is your side of the issue that is advocating all of the social and economic changes and sacrifices.
And yet when it is pointed out that large areas of the oceans are not measured and instead furnished with imaginary temperatures to create the argument that globule warming is occurring what is the response?
“iāve never seen that from the skeptic side” Nor should you. The burden of proof is solely on your side, because you are making the claims. Put up or simply go away and stop trying to deceive the public.
michael
Anyone who speaks of heating being trapped in the atmosphere has zero knowledge of physics, let alone the complexities of the atmosphere and the climate systems, and so it is wasted breathe to try to reason with or explain anything to him.
And the thread-bare veil of civility is not concealing the utter contempt he has for people who like to KNOW things, rather than simply and completely BELEIVING things, as he and his like-minded warmista lackwit Chris obviously do.
They give no respect, have earned none, and have forfeited the benefit of a doubt due to all at the get go.
Steve, get over it…there is no global warming disaster to cry about, so quite your crying, whining, and mewling already, huh?
It is unseemly and embarrassing.
What a great example — particularly addressing this crowd — of my observation that the hallmark of the “progressive” is the nexus of arrogance and ignorance .
“Sure. Science is as follows. I will keep it simple. The more co2 we put into our atmosphere the more heat gets trapped therefore the planet warms and its caused by humans. Its been science that has stood for more than 100 years. But of course you all know better.”
Completely and totally wrong, Steve. And, yes, we know better, a LOT better.
In the 1890s Arrhenius conjectured that CO2 might warm the climate. This hypothesis was never proven and died, as it should, as wrong science. This failed conjecture was revived in the 1960s and 1970s by those trying to link CO2 and climate warming, and then they put forth this failed work as established science, which it clearly is NOT. Of course, if they say it enough, many people, who do not research the topic, begin to believe the propaganda.
No gas at any concentration in the climate can warm the atmosphere in any detectable manner. In fact, CO2 and water vapor are more accurately called, by real scientists, “radiative gases.” They operate in both directions in sunlight, converting a little IR radiation to heat and heat to IR, and have no effect (this alone destroys the whole junk science that CO2 warms the climate). It is at night that these gases operate unopposed, with no IR input, to convert atmospheric heat to IR which is then lost to space. That is why the air chills so quickly right after sunset and why little breezes kick up so quickly around the shadows of scudding clouds on a sunny dayāgases are converting heat in the air to IR which chills the air in shadow very rapidly.
Furthermore, CO2 and water vapor cannot “trap” anything. They are gases, not a glass ceiling. The “greenhouse gas” idea was cobbled up out of nothing, and the energy budget used to describe this is metaphysical, actually creating energy out of nothing. They are counting on people not bothering to do the math.
As Earths’ surface (15 deg C) in sunlight is always hotter than the CO2 in the upper tropical troposphere (-17 deg C, which is where the “climate science” says the “trapping” CO2 is supposed to function), any downwelling IR is reflected back upwards. Thermodynamically, a cold object cannot warm a hot object.
“Climate science” also says the upper tropical troposphere has to be warming faster than anywhere else. Not only has this reputed “hot spot” never been detected, NASA has found that this region of the atmosphere has been cooling gently for 40 years. This is another fatal blow to the CO2-warms-the-climate “science.”
Furthermore, the upper tropical troposphere is thin such that there is not enough gas to beam the quantities of IR claimed by the “climate science” downward to the surface. It would have to be at 100s or 1000s of deg C to do what they claim. It’s on average -17 deg C. Just junk science, again.
Also, CO2 has only a couple of frequencies at which it can absorb and emit IR. It is quite selective and the vast majority of IR passes right through and on to space. Water vapor has wider absorption frequencies, but it also misses whole ranges of IR, tends to be at rather low concentration at -17 deg C, and also water vapor overlaps CO2’s absorption frequencies so that these case interfere with each other.
A few years ago, Mizkolski published a paper showing that, as CO2 rises by natural processes, absolute water vapor decreases, so that actually the “radiative gas” effects decrease not increase. The junk “climate science” says that CO2 enslaves water vapor and create a runaway greenhouse effect, another boogey man in the closet that does not exist.
“Climate scientists” like to point to Venus as a runaway greenhouse effect with its 90 atmospheres of air pressure, 95% CO2, and 500 deg C surface temperature. Venus is not even a greenhouse and its surface temperature is completely determined by gravitational compression, just as air on Earth warms as it goes down the side of a mountain, gravitational compression. A greenhouse requires that sunlight react the planet’s surface and it does not on Venus with its permanent cloud deck. Also, the Venusian atmosphere is so thick that heat moves around slowly and the atmosphere is relatively homogeneously warm all around the planet.
Junk science is fun stuff, as it can be shown to be false in multitudinous ways. It’s such fun.
Of course, Steve, you must know all of this science, right? You don’t obviously
Yes Steve, keep it simple because, in fact, you are a scientific simpleton. Others have answered you, although I think you will find a supporter in the English teacher on here, another scientific simpleton, who also thinks it is simple physics.
It’s not …. and, if you wanted to actually learn something from this, you might start by asking the right question, and thinking about what happens above 280 ppm, not the failed Arrhenius general conjecture, and throw in a little reading on falsifiable hypotheses.
Chris
“1) the data is corrupt
2) the scientists are corrupt
3) the data is biased by UHI so canāt be trusted
4) itās all natural variation.”
You left out a couple of things:
5) It is not warming in line with added CO2
6) The negative feedback of tropical clouds is 20 times as powerful as the forcing
7) It is not warmer now than it was 1000 years ago, and 8000 years ago
8) CO2 is, generally speaking, as low as it has been in 2.5 billion years
9) There is zero evidence that the climate has a ‘tipping point’ at any CO2 concentration, even as high as the historical high of 7000 ppm.
10) There is no detectable influence on temperature of human emissions, even though in theory there is one.
11) Having a few developed countries ‘attack this global problem’ while more than half the people in more than half the countries do nothing is iniquitous and manifestly at variance with creating a sustainable society – the thing we are supposed to be working towards.
A portion of the population in every country on Earth is suffering from energy poverty. We need to create far more energy in a sustainable manner. PV and wind turbines are not going to accomplish that. We should put trillions into advanced physics research to create new forms of energy sources because fossil fuels are going to be substantially depleted with a few centuries.
Well we do, because simple science also says that every time you fart from eating bean-sprouts and red cabbage and lentils you add a far more potent greenhouse gas, methane. So to stop global warming perhaps we should stop eating vegan diets…
But of course you know, don’t you, that its not whether or not COā ’causes global warming’, its how much global warming it causes?
I mean will doubling COā add 0.1Ā°C ? 1Ā°C ? 10 Ā°C???
But you are a bright guy really aren’t you? you were just yanking our chains pretending you thought scepticism was about whether or not AGW exists rather than how big an effect it has…
I mean the only person stupider than a person who thinks adding COā has precisely zero effect, would be someone who thinks someone else believes that, right?
No one is that stupid surely?
This thread needs a theme song…..
you mean “simplistic” don’t you – this sort of sloppiness is not going to convert intelligent people
Stevie, you said: “Trump believed the human body was like a battery, with a finite amount of energy, which exercise only depleted.”
Reminds me of my granddaddy Crawford who lived to be 93 years old. Smoked a pack a-day, drank a quart of sherry a day, and said the only exercise he ever got in his life was being pallbearer at his athletic friend’s funerals.
“Just the usual 1) the data is corrupt 2) the scientists are corrupt 3) the data is biased by UHI so canāt be trusted 4) itās all natural variation. Rinse and repeat.”
And that’s ALL we need to say. Repeating the truth does not make it less true, just as repeating useful lies, as you are wont to do, doesn’t make them less false. Your side is the one making the extraordinary claims, so your side needs to present the extraordinary evidence. Yet all we seem to get from you and your ilk are flimsy theoretical models built on dodgy methodology, and indignant shrieks to pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, whenever we move in to inspect them.
You might as well have posted “Just the usual 1) the sky is blue 2) grass is green 3) bears sh*t in the woods 4) Donald Trump is President. Rinse and repeat.”
The more co2 we put into our atmosphere the more heat gets trapped therefore the planet warms
===========
ok, then why do ice ages always start when CO2 is at its highest levels? it should be impossible. the planet should be too warm.
and also, why do ice ages always end when CO2 is at its lowest? it should be impossible. the planet should be too cold.
look at the well known graph below. do you see the problem? when CO2 is at the lowest point, temperatures shoot up and the ice age ends. then, when CO2 levels are high, the planet starts to cool.
so the only thing that can be said for sure is that co2 causes cooling, and lack of co2 causes warming!!!
When we grow tired of winning, Steve, we’ll let you know. Meanwhile, you’re free to move to Germany, they need bright bulbs like you to help dig themselves a deeper energy hole.
I have a PhD in space physics from UCLA. I worked as a meteorologist for the U.S. Air Force for 4 years. I worked for NASA as an atmospheric physicist. I think my credentials as a scientist are quite secure and my experimental and mathematical experience as an atmospheric scientist -unlike journalists,lawyers, and politicians-is real. I don’t think global warming (aka climate change) is the threat it’s made out to be. From the tone of your remarks, I’m sure you must have flunked Calculus, or avoided it altogether.
I don’t have any hard facts but I work closely with certain German manufactures. I often question, as their prices are so good, they are not receiving subsidies (or tax preference). We often get out bid in Canada against German manufactures, even with our 66% on the Euro.
The German price of electric energy per kwh for the private sector is 36 US cents (132 Terawatthours/2015), for the industry it is, all taxes, levys and that stuff included, 18 US cents per kwh (389 Twh/2015). So, a fair and equal price would be 22,6 US cents per kwh for all on average. Fritz and Frollein are paying a high price to keep the German industry and its exports rolling.
The Euro’s value is brought down by the many economically weak countries that are part of it. This helps German exports. If Germany, a strong economy, was back using the strong Mark, export prices would be much higher.
Reciprocally, the strong German economy pushes the Euro’s value too high for economically weaker member countries (eg : Greece)
Both Non Nomen and Bernard P make good points.
German industry is heavily subsidised by the ordinary German citizen, and it has to be so subsidised so that it can compete on international markets. Notwithstanding that there is strong evidence that German industry which are high energy dependent (such as the petrochemical companies of the like of BASF, Bayer) are relocating to the US, growing their US divisions instead of European divisions, simply because of the lower cost of energy in the US.
If Germany had kept the DM, and not had the Euro its currency would be at least 40% stronger. Germany has enjoyed an economic benefit favouring its exporters by being in a weak Euro. It has employed policies that have deliberately kept the Euro weak. Such policies are essentially anti-competitive.
Germany enjoys a substantial trade surplus with the US of about US$250 billion, and with the UK of about Ā£85 billion, and this is largely due to the currency manipulation by Germany and the weak Euro. There is a strong case for both the US and the UK slapping a currency surcharge on German goods to take account of that currency manipulation, perhaps say a tariff of 25% to 35% on all German goods to level the playing field.
It appears that President Trump is concerned about the trade surplus being run by Germany. Since President is a business man and must fully appreciate the reason behind this surplus, and perhaps President Trump raised this prospect at the recent G7 meeting. It is something that the UK should consider raising in its Brexit negotiations. Perhaps it is something that could be explored jointly by the US and the UK.
Get Germany to properly fund its NATO obligations, and to do something about the anti competitive nature of the currency manipulation.
BernardP nails it. The Euro is at the heart both Germany’s pathologically obese trade surplus and Southern Europe’s continuing lack of competitiveness. Other than clinging to the Euro, this is not a matter of national policy, German or otherwise.
A good part of Germany’s trade surplus accumulates in the form of bad loans in the Bundesbank’s basement. In effect, German workers get paid too little for their work, and ultimately not at all in proportion to those bad loans. At the same time, Southern European would-be workers can’t find work.
Each year the Euro madness continues is a lost one. I find it astonishing that the European leaders continue to whistle past the graveyard instead of addressing this problem. Perversely, one has to hope that a major crisis, such as an Italian default, will bring the whole thing crashing down.
The question you pose has puzzled me for a long time.
Somehow, the German mfr’s must be getting some sort of subsidy or break from their govt.
Not sure, but it’s possible that German mfr’s do not get taxed (either fully or maybe just partially) on stuff they sell outside of Germany. If so, this would be a tremendous savings for them.
Note that before the Euro was initiated, Germany was already an exporting powerhouse.
Making stuff in Germany is very expensive due to their labor laws, wages and more recently, the cost of power (electricity, gas, oil, etc.) Yet, this seems to have no affect on their ability to export.
Something here is just not right; and it is not just currency exchange rates either.
German industry has subsidised electricity. German domestic consumers do not.
Shows German prices versus other parts of Europe.Domestic consumers pay more, industry pays less.
Full article here>
https://energytransition.org/2015/08/small-german-power-consumers-subsidize-industry/
Merkel is destroying her country. She’s making energy prohibitively expensive and importing a ‘multicultural” problem that will eventually bring Germany (and the Euro along with it) to it’s knees.
I suppose from an “America First” position, we should let her continue her suicidal rush to end Germany’s economic prowess. But frankly, I just feel sorry for them and hope not to see either their major economic or cultural ruin. To that end, the good voters of Germany must kick Frau Merkel to the curb come next elections or they’re likely finished.
I suspect that part of Merkel’s outrage at Trumps Paris Climate Accord withdrawal stems from Germany’s (and Europe’s) present and increasing (see link) need to accommodate more and more “non-assimilating” so-called refugees. She (and her Globalist ilk) were counting on the “Uncle Sam Cash Cow” to once again ante up more free money.
https://heatst.com/world/leaked-report-says-6-6-million-refugees-are-trying-to-get-into-europe/
If Merkel is destroying her country she is going about it in a surprising way. Unlike
most other countries Germany has a positive balance of trade, i.e. it is getting richer
from its exports all of which are manufacturing based. Her devious policy of clever
innovation driving exports and making Germany rich is clearly design to ruin the country.
Geronimo, you clearlyhave no idea of the workings of the EU and German government. The german taxpayer massively subsidises German industry b y essentially paying for much of the cost of its power. The EU single currency ensures that other countries that once upon a time could compete on price grounds to make up for a slightly inferior product, now cannot do so as they are all locked into the Euro. This has given German exporters a massive advantage and is driving the Southern EU states into poverty. Then the relative weakness of the Euro internationally again is a great boon to otherwise expensive, but I admit excellent german products. If you were a conspiracy nut you would claim that Germany has arranged the EU for its own benefit!
If, perhaps you should say “Germany and France have arranged the EU for their own benefit” …
Just spent 5 days in Germany.
what a clean, prosperous successful place…
they can kick her out
but
kicking the millions of newchums out after theyve enjoyed the handouts will be a far greater problem
damage is well n truly done
Germany is not close to “finished”, they are an economic powerhouse who punch well above their weight globally.
David Johnson June 2, 2017 at 11:39 pm
Now David Johnson, this might come as a surprise to you, ā¦.. but, ā¦.. the taxpayers in all countries that have āelectrical dependent industriesā ā¦ā¦ are the āsubsidizersā of the costs of said electrical energy production/generation.
Like President Ronald Regan once said, ā¦ā¦ āCorporations [and electrical power companies] donāt pay taxes, ā¦ā¦.. [working] people pay taxes.ā
Scott, as a German, I despise Merkel and consider her the worst chancellor since you know who. However, kicking her to the curb will at best make little difference. She is not a “leader” in any proper sense of the word; she mostly just looks which way the wind is blowing and then proceeds to lead from behind. The one significant exception may have been her mishandling of the refugee crisis, but that so far has little bearing on economic competitiveness.
Merkel’s main rival in the upcoming election is former village mayor and Eurocrat Martin Schulz – an ignorant and delusional man. He would be worse.
They send us stuff…we send them paper.
Just like with Japan in the 1980s, and China since the 1990s.
We get stuff…they get paper.
The finer details are more complex of course, and wealth is less evenly distributed in the US than in the EU, but the US is still the economy that drives the world forward.
Not to say we have not been eroding our national wealth and competitive advantage in many areas by closing too many manufacturing sectors and rely on too many service jobs.
Our politicians have made terrible deals that enrich the people and companies that lobby them, and politicians have themselves been greatly enriched at public expense.
Drain the swamp.
Most of the ones who are not lying thieves are merely thieving liars.
Vote the lot of them out, elect a House and Senate full of Donald Trumpians, and lets see how things go after that.
Europe has a problem. Its the emperors new green clothes. As long as everyone sings from et same green hymn sheet, or pretends to (china, india) then elcetricity becoms expensive everywhere and no one gains an edge. And the green cash printing machine that steals from the poor to give to the rich rolls on.
http://vps.templar.co.uk/Cartoons%20and%20Politics/smart-meter.jpg
Trump has basically said ‘actually the people who voted me in are poor folk, and this is one way I can give them a bit of a break’.
Like Brexit, there is a huge scare that the idea might take hold, the emperor shows up naked, and then the whole multi-trillion dollar green scam is over.
It’s fair to say that Merkel’s government, with a strong central state and the needs of Industry given priority over the needs of any individuals, is a cleaned up, happy face, and gentler version of the government that the National Socialists envisioned 75 years ago. In Merkel’s view, there was nothing wrong with their economic views, they just went about it in too militant a fashion.
Steve
“Sure. Science is as follows. I will keep it simple. The more co2 we put into our atmosphere the more heat gets trapped therefore the planet warms and its caused by humans. Its been science that has stood for more than 100 years. But of course you all know better.”
On the other hand, science has shown that for billions of years of the planets existence, CO2 has never been responsible for atmospheric heating. So what happened in the last 100 years or so, did CO2 mysteriously, and unnoticed, somehow change it’s physical properties?
http://www.biocab.org/Geological_Timescale.jpg
Steve and his ilk know nothing of Earth history, nor do they care.
They are not inclined to study issues, but merely to spout off and virtue signal.
Scientific simpletons, they are immune to facts, logic, and detailed explanations or discussion.
But the German economy continues to grow – it was the fastest growing economy in the G7 at the start of the year
https://www.theguardian.com/world/blog/2017/feb/23/germanys-gdp-shows-19-rise-over-last-year
German industry continues to thrive… has more of it gone overseas than America, where less effort has been put into renewables? How come the Us exports all those jobs when its not following Germany on renewables?
Griff, you are clueless, Energy Intensive German Industry is moving out of Gemany, in fact quite a bit of it has moved to, you guessed it, the good old US of A.
That is even though their Industry Energy is subsidised by the general public, hence so many Germans stealing wood from forests to burn in their wood burning stoves.
Add to that despite all their “Renewables” they are building and using more Coal (brown lignite, the dirtiest of all) powered stations than ever and much more importantly their CO2 emissions are INCREASING.
So all that money heartache and spoiling of their landscape and they are making it worse, they will never, ever meet their Paris commitments.
Their own Solar Panel Industry is totally bankrupt.
Griff: you are right that Germany’s competitiveness is not solely decided by energy prices. Very energy-intensive industries may be driven out, but the two-tier pricing structure – working stiffs pay higher prices than companies – mitigates this.
As to the outsourcing of jobs, this simply is a cultural difference. German CEOs, and those in some other European countries, seem to feel a greater obligation to take care of their compatriots than American and British ones. One also needs to consider the quality of the workforce; German education, particular in the technical sector, is excellent, and the workers tend to work hard and be worth their pay. Finally, as discussed higher up in this thread, the Euro plays a big part in propping up German competitiveness.
The long and the short of this is that Germany is economically successful not because but in spite of its green energy madness. Citing Germany as an example of how green energy breeds success is a red herring.
“…fastest growing economy in the G7…”
A low bar that could be stepped over by an economic toddler.
Big deal.
With negative real interest rates, they are actually paying people to borrow money, and charging savers to hold on to their savings for them.
Once the enforced economic austerity of the Obama years is wiped away, the US will once again show the world how to lead and prosper.
Just get the gubnamint out of the dang way.
Hey Griff…you seem to becoming a comment bomber.
It speaks poorly of your ability to defend what you say.
“Citing Germany as an example of how green energy breeds success is a red herring.”
It is a marathon, not a sprint.
Let’s see how it works out for them in the long haul.
i suspect it will not end well for them.
Griff June 3, 2017 at 2:06 am
Yes Griff the German economy is the fastest growing of the G7. at 1.9% The U.S. was a poor 1.6%
But fear not, we’ve ripped a page from the German’s book and are opening new coal mines just like them.
Below is a link to a report on how Germany is opening a new “Brown coal mine”. Just warms ya all over
michael
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-14/germanys-dirty-little-coal-secret/7840578
If the USA gamed the market like Germany has…..the screaming now would look like silence
“But the German economy continues to grow ā it was the fastest growing economy in the G7 at the start of the year”
GDP is what tells you that paying half the people to smash the windows and the other half to fix them will make you rich. It’s a worthless metric, and trivially easy to fudge. Which is why the left love it so much.
It’s the modern ‘tons of tractors produced’, which was easy to improve by adding lead weights to all the tractors that came out of your factory.
You know why US healthcare is so expensive? Because removing the exceptions to numerous laws that would make the market competitive and slash the costs would cause a 10% drop in US GDP. And people like you would claim that was a horrible, horrible thing, even though it would mean that real people in the real world suddenly had to pay far less for their healthcare.
Alastair; very true. Germany presents itself as some kind of global savior of the climate, but if you look at their emission cut promise, it is 40% reduction from the 1990 level by 2020. What they have done to date, is related to a large extent to the shutting down of old and inefficient east German industry around 1990, just after the reunification of Germany. Since 2009, their co2 emissions have been more or less constant, and they are not likely to reach their 40% target by 2020, unless they start up a lot of nuclear power plants again, though that is also anathema to the Germans. I wonder what Merkel is going to say in three years’ time? What excuse will she give for betraying the global climate?
That’s easy. She’ll find some way to blame the Evil Trump and United States! Leftists NEVER hold themselves accountable unless they are forced to and that goes double for leftist politicians. For example Kathy Griffin’s latest trying to play the victim.
Currently Germany is emitting more CO2 than they did in 1990
UNFCCC
Energy Access & Efficiency
en.lighten Initiative
‘Phasing Out Incandescent Lamps By The End of 2016’
The en.lighten Initiative was organized by UNEP and the Global Environment Facility (GEF).
http://newsroom.unfccc.int/lpaa/energy-access-efficiency/global-efficient-lighting-partnership-programme-lighting-the-low-carbon-path
And:
business.un.org
Partnership Story: UNEP en.lighten Initiative
The en.lighten Initiative was created in 2009 as a partnership between UNEP, OSRAM GmbH and Philips Lighting with the support of the GEF Earth Fund.
More at:
https://business.un.org/en/documents/9292
Information about why incandescent light bulbs are no longer available.
GEF provides funding for UN initiatives/programs.
More information on the GEF online and at their website.
The GEF was established on the eve of the 1992 Rio Earth Summit and acts as a catalyst for action on the environment and more.
GEF-CSO Network
“Formerly known as GEF-NGO Network”
Scroll down to: North American Members
Includes:
IISD, Canada
NRDC
World Resources Institute
Woods Hole Research Center
Institute For Sustainable Power, Inc.
Atlantic States Legal Foundation,Inc.
And others
Click on the name of the organization for more information and the countries they are active in.
http://www.gefcso.org/filemaster.cfm?&action=main&menuid=12
Correction, should be: GEF-CSO Network
http://www.gefcso.org/formmaster.cfm?&action=main&menuid=12
What really should be pointed out and emphasized is that the Paris Treaty was another version of the Copenhagen Agreement, the first major effort by the UN to create a one-world power structure to control the world’s energy. However, at the time the Agreement was presented in Copenhagen, the UN discovered that they had been written out of the power structure the Agreement described; the UN then very quickly scuttled the effort to get the Agreement adopted. We dodged that bullet, as our Fearful Leader in 2009 probably would have signed us on to it if it was offered.
The Paris Treaty was another backdoor attempt by the UN to take away economic freedom of the world’s countries, thus creating a one-world power. Losing the US form this effort is a huge blow to their global plans. If other countries then examine their economies and future potentials, they will follow suit. This will snowball as soon as the world sees that the US will not fail, while the rest of the world struggles with repressive policies. The only real gripe the other countries can have with the US is that they will grouse about not receiving many billions of undeserved money from the US people for non-existent climate damages.
Hello, Steve
How about you join me in each taking calibrated thermometers to the upper atmosphere, where virtually ALL climate models tell us the heat resides? will you abide by the results?
Hi it’s Steve again, I love the comments that point to temperatures in the past and the level of co2 in the past. Who do you think provided that science you all reference and you all use it as fact. Guess who put together the data you rely on …… you got it? Climate scientists. You all like their data when it fits your argument but when it doesn’t they are all liars and are making it all up. This should really be a comedy site, it makes me laugh. Please comment on this as I picture all you heads exploding with rage, gone on it makes me laugh …
You idi*t steve, people like Anthony have done more actual data gathering than the high priests whose feet you worship at have ever thought of doing. Your so-called “climate scientists do very little data collecting at all, if any. They are the ones who take the data OTHERS have collected and run them through unproven economic models, then massage those outputs to say what they want.
Once again, the actual truth of the matter is the complete opposite of what you oh-so-faithfully believe. But that’s the way it usually is with hard core religious fundy’s like you.
You’re the comedian here, Stevarino.
You are the climate change parrot of WUWT and we all love to rattle your cage.
Historical climate proxy data have a chance of being useful and somewhat accurate.
The coming climate change catastrophe has no data … it is an imaginary catastrophe that is always coming in the future … but never comes … because it is fiction !
In the 1980’s it was coming.
In the 1990s it was coming
In the 2000’s it was coming
In the 2010’s it was coming
It’s always coming to get us
… in the future.
But the future climate is actually unknown, and unknowable.
So your guess of the future climate is no better than my guess, and our guesses are no better than guesses from PhD scientists or village idiots.
All wild guesses of the future climate are worthless because no one knows what causes climate change, so no one can predict future climate change.
Sure, a scientist wearing an expensive suit can state a serious prediction with great certainty, and parrots like you will repeat it like its the gospel — well it is YOUR gospel — but we already have 30 years of grossly inaccurate confuser model predictions … so more and more people are beginning to see the hoax — politicians and the government bureaucrats they hire deliberately scare people about something that’s allegedly coming in the future … after they are dead and gone … that never comes.
I recommend the New York Times to line the bottom of your parrot cage.
I explain the lack of science behind the imaginary runaway global warming fantasy in my climate blog at:
http://www.elOnionBloggle.Blogspot.com
Please do not read that blog.
If you learned something about climate science, then your posts here might be taken seriously, and would not rile up people with actual science knowledge.
I don’t want you to change — I enjoy reading the posts slappin’ you upside the head, and wouldn’t want that to end !
How many more decades of a wonderful climate do YOU require before you exhibit even the slightest doubt that predictions of runaway global warming may be wrong? … and much more important, when will you stop demonizing harmless CO2 and focus on REAL air, water and soil pollution in China, India and other parts of the world?
Did you know the air in China is so dirty some of the pollution carries over to the three US states on the Left Coast?
I guess that doesn’t matter — leave China alone — demonize harmless CO2 instead — and demonize nuclear power too, even though nuclear power is the only clean replacement for coal in Asia.
One of the things I did reluctantly in life was administer a state’s mercury pollution program. I will not go into detail about mercury other than to say over 48% is natural, plus or minus a volcano eruption or two. Our state reduce the mercury in our waste stream by over 90%. However that was not enough for our staff, or EPA or the environmentalist that supported both. They refused to declare that we had been successful. They wanted a hundred percent reduction in mercury “pollution.” They HATED that I knew great deal about mercury in the environment. When I asked how we were going to eliminated mercury “pollution” the answer was to eliminate, not control, all coal fired plants in the USA. They tried to assure me that would thereby eliminated the average American’s exposure to mercury, which they claimed with little proof was affecting the health of tens of thousands. So one day in my office where I had a large map of the earth I pointed to the USA, I explained general weather patterns in the northern hemisphere and then I pointed out China. I explained how many coal fired plants they were building per year. Then I asked how are we going to stop that mercury pollution. The room was silent for some time. I then said, Well??? Their answer was the USA had to set the example. I am sorry to say I had to laugh. Of course they couldn’t explain why marine fish stored away for over a hundred years had mercury levels almost identical to the same species swimming around today. At one point they went around “the bosses” and tried to get the fishery managers in our state to put in strict bag and size limits on marine fish based on estimated human consumption. They didn’t like it when I pointed out that the average consumption of seafood had not changed in over fifty years.
The worldwide war against this crap science must continue. The fallout from poverty and lack of development will otherwise set the world on fire while many of us freeze and starve in the dark!
We are moving to a class society in which the Democrat elite do much better than everyone else and the despicables slide into poverty. link
The thing that accompanies inequality is violence. link If the liberal elites think Brexit, and the election of Trump, and dumping Paris, are horrible, they haven’t seen anything yet.
When my family travelled through Mexico they stayed at a hotel with a machine gun tower. Eventually the elites have to build bigger walls and hire more guards. That’s not the kind of country I want to live in.
Democrat elites? The big corporations and Repub allies in Congress played a major, if not dominant role in the trade agreements that shipped scores of thousands of jobs overseas.
sounds like Cuba, Venezuela, etc
At least you know where the Republicans stand. The trouble is that the Democrats have been very two faced. The party has changed but it pretends that it still supports ordinary Americans, while at the same time doing things that profoundly disadvantage them and send their jobs elsewhere. Listen Liberal!
When President Trump refers to the forgotten Americans, he’s talking about the people the Democrat party pretends to stand up for, but doesn’t.
At least you know where the Republicans stand. ,,,
yep..right beside the democrats
same dog…..different collar
Nor me. I visted South Africa a while back. My friends there encouraged me to stay: “For the price of your small house in Bristol, UK, you can buy a fine house here with three car garage, six bedrooms, five bathrooms, and 30,000 volt electric security fence.’
But if it did set the world on fire there would still be heat and light
Lord Monckton really nails the climate fraud, in this 12 minute clip from yesterday’s Alex Jones Show. His new paper about to be published, Blows The Globalist Climate Doom Ship Clean Out of The Water !
I can’t help but wonder if POTUS watched this section of the show, which was transmitted live just a few hours before the Whitehouse Paris Treaty dĆ©bĆ¢cle ? I can’t wait for the publication of this paper.
Sorry….I’ve heard stuff like this before. Somehow it never seems to materialize.
I suppose there’s some value in Mockton appearing on his show, but Alex Jones is simply NOT credible on science topics. Just listen to him here, ranting about “massive” weather modification, and antennae secretly manipulating the ions in the atmosphere (all “documented!”).
Monckton gently nudges him back to reality, by pointing out that all such attempts are fruitless, that they are puny when compared with the mighty forces of Nature driving our atmosphere and climate.
But guys like Jones are invested in so many conspiracy theories REQUIRING that the conspiracies are effective that it’s a good bet he will not stay nudged.
So tomorrow he’ll back with his wacko theories about chemtrails as being clandestine “government geoengineering”.
(Oops–I posted this at the wrong location just above.)
If Monckton’s paper is water-tight, or or vulnerable only to pettifogging quibbles, as I suspect, it could have a tremendous impact. Not all climatologists are 100% unprincipled. They’d be impressed by it, and the center of gravity of warmism would shift dramatically away from cock-sure alarmism.
effinayright,
I see no reason to put it paste some in power to try all manner of weather manipulation, and am quite sure I’ve been observing intermittent spraying going on for over a decade. Be that a it may, I see no reason to speak as though we’re still in Kansas, Toto ; )
Wow, someone who actually admits to watching Alex Jones. What a sad existence to make your living out of trying to rile up people and make them angry. And to out and out lie, as he often does.
I can’t wait for this paper to be published. If the good Lord is correct, can we all please go home then?
I have been waiting for what seems like forever for something of the kind which Lord Monckton promises. I strongly hope that it’s not simply pie-in-the-sky. It wouldn’t be, would it?
I’m hopeful but doubtful that this will have the desired effect however true and irrefutable it might be. I mean there are many bonafide studies that indicate atmospheric CO2 and atmospheric warming are not even correlated let alone catastrophic and that should already have blown the CAGW hypothesis out of the water e.g. the graphic posted by HotScot a few posts back. Such evidence is always dismissed with “CO2 is a greenhouse gas” and with a conjecture: if a little bit will warm up the atmosphere then a lot will cause a catastrophe. The fact is that it hasn’t in the past and that fact ought to stop any scientist (climate or otherwise) in his tracks before lending any credence to the CAGW hypothesis. So far nobody has been stopped in their tracks. In fact the whole world is clamoring for governments of the world to come together and force their peoples to live in a proper manner that won’t endanger the planet.
There’s nothing new in this:
The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.
H. L. Mencken
Small wonder there are so many vested interests supporting it but the description ‘Hoax’ remains not far off the mark.
Too bad he had to announce this on Alex Jones, of all people. Rosa Koire makes the same mistake – by posting her excellent videos via Alex Jones…
Alex Jones???
Chris,
“Wow, someone who actually admits to watching Alex Jones. What a sad existence to make your living out of trying to rile up people and make them angry. And to out and out lie, as he often does.”
You just did too, since I didn’t “actually admit’ to watching Alex Jones” . . though I have at times, as you apparently have too . . ’cause we ain’t in Kansas anymore ; )
It’s unsettling, so to speak, that Chris Monckton is relying on math rather than science to “disprove” CACA. He labors under the mistaken notion that science, like math, is about “proof”. But we’ll see.
Gabro,
If Mr. Monckton can demonstrate that the very “math” the alarmists themselves utilized to come up with their scary “projections” was botched by them (in several ways no less) he effectively destroys what to my mind is the claim they have most religiously relied on all along; great expertise. It’s not a question of him “relying on math rather than science to ādisproveā CACA”, I don’t believe, but rather to disprove that claim of superior expertise.
At this moment in history, so to speak, it could be a game changer, I think.
Chris Monckton is playing the political game.
As much as I like the bloke because of his stance against AGW, he has been spouting this story of a conclusive scientific paper on the matter for years now.
If he has, what he maintains he has, an irrefutable, ground breaking, mathematical study that proves global warming is a farce, he’s waiting for an expedient political moment to release it whilst, meanwhile, garnering as much PR mileage as he can.
I’m sorry Chris, but FFS sake get on with it. We don’t need any more political manipulation than we already have. Indeed, Trump just told the Paris faithful to f*uck off, with no scientific evidence.
He’s waiting for the paper to be published (apparently soon), HotScot. Once it’s been carefully scrutinized and accepted as technically sound, he can “get on with it”.
I have to disagree with Roger Knights, and I wish I didn’t – but at this point, yes, it is fair to say…
ALL climatologists are now 100% unprincipled. To follow principles would be to admit that Trump might have been right, and any climatologist who did that would be instantly fired and hounded out of the profession. (I wish I was exaggerating, but you know I am not)
It has now become a 100% corrupted field, necessarily run by 100% corrupt people. No one who is even partially honest will be allowed to remain a part of that field anymore.
Even our Liberal MSM in Canada contains praise for his action. http://www.torontosun.com/2017/06/02/trump-is-right-to-stand-up-to-the-nonsense-that-is-the-paris-deal
I think The Toronto Sun would take great umbrage (and rightly so) at being described as “Liberal MSM”.
Lorrie Goldstein
Good summary of the economics of going for “renewable energy”.
Dammit. I was hoping to cash in right at the ground floor on some unknown exotic new energy technology with all the research and risk paid for by the taxpayers but the moola raked in by me.
Now I can’t do that. Gonna’ hafta pay more saps to protest out on the streets.
Dilithium crystals are the answer. I saw it on TV, so it must be true.
Yep. Dilithium Crystals + antimatter = moving at the speed of light cubed
I’m visualizing a cartoon with Gore, Mann, and others at the Mad Hatter’s Tea Party.
Only hoping they wouldn’t drive the Mad Hatter crazy.
/grin
Paris hadn’t kicked in so it was easy to object to its cancellation.
Thanks Paul…and on top of all that
Obama and the democrats added ~$10 trillion to our debt…
…Obama signed this and added another ~$3 trillion after he’s gone
How long has this EU global warming “Paris” thing been going on anyway?
…and they have accomplished nada
“Latitude,
Well, I think they instigated what amounts to a test of the idea that significant Government orchestrated investment in “renewable” energy technologies would lead to major advances . . Which, granted, is a lot like nada, but I’m in a magnanimous mood today ; )
LOL…..you mean like this
Evergreen Solar ($25 million)*
SpectraWatt ($500,000)*
Solyndra ($535 million)*
Beacon Power ($43 million)*
Nevada Geothermal ($98.5 million)
SunPower ($1.2 billion)
First Solar ($1.46 billion)
Babcock and Brown ($178 million)
EnerDelās subsidiary Ener1 ($118.5 million)*
Amonix ($5.9 million)
Fisker Automotive ($529 million)
Abound Solar ($400 million)*
A123 Systems ($279 million)*
Willard and Kelsey Solar Group ($700,981)*
Johnson Controls ($299 million)
Brightsource ($1.6 billion)
ECOtality ($126.2 million)
Raser Technologies ($33 million)*
Energy Conversion Devices ($13.3 million)*
Mountain Plaza, Inc. ($2 million)*
Olsenās Crop Service and Olsenās Mills Acquisition Company ($10 million)*
Range Fuels ($80 million)*
Thompson River Power ($6.5 million)*
Stirling Energy Systems ($7 million)*
Azure Dynamics ($5.4 million)*
GreenVolts ($500,000)
Vestas ($50 million)
LG Chemās subsidiary Compact Power ($151 million)
Nordic Windpower ($16 million)*
Navistar ($39 million)
Satcon ($3 million)*
Konarka Technologies Inc. ($20 million)*
Mascoma Corp. ($100 million)
Yes . . many helped with the test . .
Is your wallet as big as your “magnanimous mood”, JohnKnight…? And if not, why are you supporting massive debt-riddled scams that primarily enriched Obama’s political friends and bundlers?
You can be as graciously generous as you want, but please do it with somebody else’s $Trillions.
(If the West can’t find investment capital because our economic system has been degraded to the point it isn’t profitable, we’re done–put a fork in it and start digging your cave.)
Well . . sure, if you insist, Rocky . . I’ll use somebody elseās $Trillions . . ; )
Latitude, you forgot the biggest one of all, Elon Musk’s various companies and we are talking Billions, not millions of dollars.
Problem is, JohnKnight, nobody would invest in such scams if they were evaluated on a true cost/benefit basis–the criteria of every sane capital investment.
Like I said, the abject failures listed by Latitude above were without sufficient merit to attract such investment capital from private sources and only got government funding because of underhanded crony relations with top-ranking members of the US government.
An inspection of their board of directors will find many members of Congress and other government officials–(talk about insider trading!).
And to make matters worse, these companies were able to show but minimal results–the money purloined simply disappeared but enriched those making the loans (like Hillary’s infamous dealings that delivered 20% of US uranium reserves (a strategic mineral, no less!) to Russia while those involved “donated” $135 Million to the Clinton Global Initiative).
I hope a Federal investigation is launched to trace where all those $Billions went, and the criminals exposed and brought to justice.
So by all means, use somebody else’s $Trillions–if you can find them. With President Trump at the helm, US tax payers won’t be fleeced as likely as they were under Obama.
Exiting the Paris Climate Accord (perhaps the scam of the century) is an excellent example.
Rocky, I was playing along with the Mad Hatterās climate tea party theme, with some through the looking glass style logic. But thanks, yours is better ; )
Latitude,
Thanks for that list, Trump should have included the gross failures of renewable green energy to deliver in his speech. In reality, along with cost, success of replacing current fossil fuels is near to zero with the consequences of high risk to jobs and the economy which is enormous, absent reliable and abundant energy. I credit the DOE and the Obama administration for not understanding or having a clue how to pick winners, absent proper vetting, and thinking that dumping $$$ will guarantee success. Research does not work that way.
By the way I consulted with Range fuels, along with about a dozen other new energy ventures, along with some other colleagues, particularly on mechanical hardware for the Range fuels venture. I even viewed their pilot plant in Colorado. Given their hardware demands to process planned feed stock, I never felt that the technology would scale up well from their small demonstration plant to a commercial size unit.
I thought the workers were cooperative and dedicated but overly optimistic that the technology would be successful, but that is the nature of all the dozens I worked consulted with. Problems and challenges seemed to be overlooked thinking they would ultimately be solved, in my opinion.
On top of that it seemed like the DOE and others were desperate and put unrealistic timelines, not allowing for sufficient time to iron out challenging problems. There was risk to loosing if there was not “immediate” success, unfortunately research does not work that way and throwing money at a problem does not work.
Unfortunately they rushed into a commercial plant, and the results speak for themselves.
Just for fun, I decided to pen some of the virtue signalling thoughts of those on the Left in their faux agony and grief about Trump trashing the Paris Accord:
“The streets of humanity will run red with the blood of tomorrow’s children”.
“The Earth died a little after Trump’s horrific decision.”
“In the annals of history, no decision before or after this one of Trump’s will ever equal it in the sheer scope of folly, horror, and death”. Some I may have seen, or something close to it, I don’t know.
Go ahead, try it. It’s fun.
“Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few.”
A mirror image since we’re in wonderland.
Do you mean
Or perhaps:
/sarc
Typical utterances of the Blitherati Bed-Wetters!
But, they assure us, this transition and spending would bring unimaginable job creation
I am gob smacked every time I see this claim, and it is pervasive in the current cacophony. If renewables create such a massive amount of jobs, why stop there? Why just use windmills and solar panels? Many MORE jobs could be created by having humans produce the same amount of electricity by pedaling bicycles.
Well, if they found the job creation “unimaginable”, maybe they actually got that one right.
/grin
And many of the those unimaginable jobs will be residential solar installers, i.e., glorified roofers. Just the kind of prestige jobs all those deeply-indebted recent college grads will be anxious to do.
Yeah, but residential solar installer is a job we can actually imagine.
Anxious or not about acquiring a āprestige jobā of residential solar installers, ā¦ā¦ those deeply-indebted recent college grads will still be required to attend āa two year Trade Schoolā just to learn how to āclimb laddersā ā¦ā¦.. and then another two years of Trade School learning how to use a hammer and screwdriver without āfalling off the roofā.
Workerās Compensation Rates and Health Insurance Premium that employers are forced to pay will increase astronomically when those āprotesting expertsā college grads are employed as āsolar panel roofersā.
David, renewable energy is “jobs rich”. It takes 40 renewable energy jobs to create an output of one coal miner. To quote Milton Friedman, “If it’s jobs you want, then you should give these workers spoons, not shovels.”
I always wonder why, if there’s so much money to be made, it takes taxpayer subsidies and trillions in destroyed value to get it going. Would it not be viable as a stand-alone investment now if there’s money to be made?
This is like the broken window fallacy — think of all the employment that would result if teams of people drove around every city with air-powered golf ball launchers breaking hundreds of thousands or millions of windows every night. Why, the economy would boom, right?
And why stop there? While the teams are out breaking windows, they should set fire to every parked car they see. Think of the boom in employment in firefighters and tow-truck drivers as well as the billions that would be spent on new cars that could bring about.
But why even stop there? Think of the construction boom if they burned every house!
We’d be a hugely wealthy nation, so rich that NOBODY would have to work.
I think the government should get right on it.
Right on, ā¦.. Mike Schlamby, ā¦ā¦. as everyone now knows, ā¦ā¦ the Democratās āCash for Clunkersā rebate program was a ājob creatingā super-successful venture, ā¦ā¦ to wit:
Hey – that is a great idea for welfare recipients.
Agreed. I spent 37 years in corporate America trying to ELIMINATE JOBS.
Jobs are a COST, not a BENEFIT.
Oh, so you are the guy?
I am not so sure I would admit to spending my life doing that job.
Were you good at it?
Yes, very good at it. Efficiency is key to competitiveness.
The Soviet Union had 0% unemployment. They were sooo superior.
On behalf of my family, I’d like to say a big “thank you” to Anthony Watts and all the contributors at WUWT for all that you’ve done. Perhaps the tide has finally started to turn.
AP June 2, 2017 at 4:36 pm
Yes, I also agree on behalf of my granchildren and those of everyone else.
Anthony has done us all a great service at considerable cost to himself. I’m sure he would just like to “get his life back” at some stage.
Come on griffy, tell us again how China is leading the world in solar power, and how solar is now sooooo much cheaper than coal, or even gas.
3
2
1 …
My pleasure, Jerome:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/may/10/indian-solar-power-prices-hit-record-low-undercutting-fossil-fuels
The Guardian, Ha Ha ROFL.
Where’s your refutation, AC? Or are you all hat and no cattle?
If you read down a bit, you come to the crux of the biscuit, from Kanika Chawla, a senior program lead at the Delhi-based Council for Energy, Environment and Water (CEEW):
And then finally, this:
So when you get down to brass tacks (or perhaps brass TAX), the apparent cheapness of solar power is due entirely to the low (current) cost of borrowing money, the government agreeing to guarantee that bad money, and enormous subsidies that the solar got but was denied to the coal/natural gas-generated power generators. 2.62 rupees is about $0.04 US, so they’re paying about one-quarter to one-third the price of solar-generated electricity in the US — where it is also highly subsidized.
What you and Griff fail to understand is that there is a lot more to the OVERALL cost to electricity than just the cost of the panels, you have the infrastructure, short life replacement costs and then that minor little problem of Intermittency.
So you either add the cost of lots and lots of lovely batteries (which have to be replaced every 10 years or so) and even more infrastructure or you have conventional back up.
Either Griff didn’t read the article….or something else
I clearly states that Indian solar is cheaper because it’s subsidized….cheaper financing, no taxes, etc that coal has to pay
http://cosy.com/y17/CrispChinaHockeyStick.jpg
What sort of batteries last for ten years of being discharged every night?
Obviously the new STEORN zero point energy batteries…just ask them. /sarc
It has been said on earlier threads but it needs to be repeated repeatedly.
This decision in NO WAY prohibits any other country, corporation, company, or citizen from moving forward with their own plans and/or life style that would address their belief in climate change. No one is restricted from doing what they see as appropriate. This decision simply stops the payment of American tax dollars to other countries in the name of climate change. So go ahead everyone, keep living the low CO2 lifestyle you already do. And if it makes you feel better in doing so, then good on you.
Thanks Tom…and 100% correctamundo
…and those other countries can figure out how to get the ~$3 trillion without our help
I swear, the EU had figured out some way to use that money to bail them out
Awh Tom you are so wrong. ..” from moving forward with their own plans and/or life style that would address their belief in climate change.”
All those people who expected their share of the $100 billion a year may actually have to do something useful instead of living off the handouts.
Amen. Build wind turbines and solar farms. Just do it. But just do it without Federal subsidies.
What do you have against birds and bats?
Coal kills far more birds than solar or wind.
Now donāt be talking ātrashā.
Solar and wind causes the deaths of ā¦.. billions of young āincubatingā and/or āhatchlingā birds each and every year. When the winds destroy the bird nests, its contents of live egg embryos and/or hatchlings are also destroyed. And whenever the live egg embryos and/or hatchlings are subjected to extreme periods of intense solar irradiance, tis fatal also.
Ah …yes , Chris …all those poor canaries …….
but we can build solar powered robot canaries and all will be well ….
@Sweet Old Bob
” ā¦all those poor canaries ā¦ā¦.”
LOL . really .
Samuel, feel free to post links to support your statements. Else you’re another empty suit.
Chris June 3, 2017 at 12:10 pm
The onus is on you to support your baseless assertion that coal kills more birds than do solar and wind power. Not to mention bats.
Chris June 3, 2017 at 12:10 pm
Chris, is Learning Disabled an inherited trait in your familyās history ā¦ā¦ or do you really strive hard at being Learning Disabled in order to gain approval and acceptance within your chosen āpeer groupā?
And ps, Chris, here are three (3) recent āwind caused bird killā events of the THOUSANDS of such events that occur every day, year after year, at different places on th earth.
Sure is strange that so many young folks think that touting their stupidity of/on a subject matter is the same as displaying a Badge of Honor for all the world to see.
“Coal kills far more birds than solar or wind.”
B**LS**T
Find me one picture of a bird killed by coal.
Chris, no surprise, is conspicuous by his absence.
Samuel’s semantic point about wind and sun, apart from wind and solar power, notwithstanding, Chris just made a baseless assertion and apparently imagined that the scientifically minded here would accept it at face value.
Wrong.
“Renewables” have killed hundreds of millions of birds and bats, if not trillions. Coal power, not even hundreds or thousands in this century.
Also consider that on average, wind turbines kill 1 bird per year each. 40,000 turbines = 40,000 bird kills annually, 300,000 turbines = 300,000 bird kills annually, just imagine how many could be eliminated if wind turbines powered the world
It was never a treaty.
Our NZ government have pledged one billion dollars to pay for this Paris rort. It’s nothing but wealth distribution, to pay for climate scaremongering. How many NZ houses would that build, given that our formerly wealthy country now has families living in cars? It’s insane.
You might like this NZ website: http://www.nzcpr.com/climate-change-data-fabricated/
kingdom777 June 2, 2017 at 4:54 pm :
No, it’s worse then we thought. Our NZ govt.is actually going to spend $1.4 billion (NZ) over the first 10 years and it’ll no doubt increase in the next. Just to buy useless fairy dust (AKA carbon credits) from overseas conmen.
No…it isn’t about wealth distribution. It is about power consolidation. It is an attempt to put sovereign nations under a global authority, that will tax the strong nations into weakness and use that money to bribe the weak nations into compliance and dependence. Ultimately, it is about a relative small group of self-anointed elites, who have convinced themselves that the rest of humanity is too stupid to be left to their own devices. These elites appear to be a little insane, just plan evil or both, because they continue to blow a path of misery and death while praising each other for imaginary wisdom, nobility and benevolence.
Mad Hatters, indeed!
Very well said.
Indeed…well said.
Yes indeed – you are correct.
Part of the ‘user pays’ mentality we have here in NZ, to then be balanced and fair, it must also be that the ‘abuser pays’….BUT as NZ is largely powered already by ‘renewables’ such as hydro, WHY then are we paying anything????
Brilliant
Thanks
200 nations against Trump? It reminds me of the famous “100 Authors against Einstein. Who won that one?
That’s an unfair fight. When Trump tromps them, they’ll be back in the capitalist, populist mode – safe and secure from the marxist tyranny they were sleepwalking into.
and how many of those 200 ( 193) countries are paying and how many have been promised free money?
It’s easy to get someone to agree to something if you promise them loads of money.
Or promise them “free” I-phones and “no-charge” unlimited calling.
Nobody in the far-left MSM seems to have mentioned that Trump was elected President with a promise to withdraw from Paris.
Nobody in the far-left MSM or pseudo-enviro NPO’s has mentioned that Obama railroaded the Paris Agreement through, without the consent of Congress.
Apparently democracy does not count to anyone on the far-left these days.
NPO’s …. meant NGO’s
To the left never did and never will
“assertions that humans can prevent climate change and extreme weather events by controlling atmospheric carbon dioxide levels”
Actually the assertion is more preposterous than that. What the unfccc proposes is to control the rate warming by changing the rate of fossil fuel emissions. The old Lacis control knob. It is based on the Matthews “proportionality between cumulative warming and cumulative emissions”. I have shown that the Lacis and Matthews statistics are flawed. So in essence the unfccc is telling us to cut emissions as a way of attenuating warming without any evidence that these two variables are related. Please see
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2873672
Butbutbut… if millions of climate alarmists agree and have 97 olympic-sized swimming poolsfull-worth of dodgy, dubious research – they must be right! How can anyone doubt them?
“We are out of Paris! President Trump is leading the world back from the climate insanity precipice.”
SANTY and REAL science are starting to prevail. !!
Unfortunately the lame stream media continues to beat the drum that “Trump still thinks Climate Change is a hoax and that we’re all going to die if we don’t do something now!”. There is no actual debate of the specifics of the agreement or arguments to back up their claims. As long as folks just watch the propaganda in the lame stream media nothing is ever going to turn our way. Trump quoted the MIT study showing a 0.2 degree reduction from the Paris Accordion, but now there is a new story claiming that’s not what the MIT folks really meant. And now mayors and governors of liberal cities and states are claiming they are going to move forward on the terms of the Paris Accordion on their own terms. I wish them well and offer my sympathies to the citizens of those communities. We still have a mountain to climb to convince the lame stream media that there is a legitimate alternative point of view on both the merits of AGW and what measures if any could actually accomplish anything.
“now there is a new story claiming thatās not what the MIT folks really meant”
Well, of course! You see, the MIT study is sooooo complicated and correct that nobody can ever truly understand it unless they are True Believers in the first place.
And don’t forget that ‘mayors and governors’ are MUCH closer to their constituencies and accessible to people who are NOT going to accept big tax increases in order to fund dubious, political-posturing, symbolic planet-saving projects.
“And now mayors and governors of liberal cities and states are claiming they are going to move forward on the terms of the Paris Accordion on their own terms. I wish them well and offer my sympathies to the citizens of those communities.”
The only way these governors and mayors are going to move forward on the Paris Accord is to raise taxes on their constituents. As you say, our sympanthies are with those poor folks who are governed by such idiots.
One good thing: It’s pretty easy to get rid of political kooks on the local level, especially when the kooks want to take money our of your pocket.
My only problem with President Trump’s action is that I’m not sure he’s doing it based on the science. I’d hate to think he’s only doing it because of political reasons. Which is exactly what so many politicians do, Only most of them go along with it.
I know that I should just be happy he’s done this, but if he has no firm belief in the nay side he might just be doing what he always does and is playing hard ball to get a better deal.
well he did say it was a s c a m
He exposed the globalists economic scam and, for those who might listen (not including those of us who have been paying attention), I hope they would be appalled with the revelations. Merkel even confessed that Paris was about supporting globalization for the UN and the EU.
The science is a different matter and not so swiftly sorted out.
I don’t see that it is any advantage to Trump to get bogged down in the weeds of the particulars of climate science. It’s enough that he says “more study is needed” which is what Scott Pruitt says. There’s no doubt about more study being needed on the subject. Taking this position doesn’t necessarily make one fall on one side or the other of the argument.
Then places like WUWT can do the “more study” part.
I know a lot of people want Trump to state uniquivocally that CO2 is not causing the climate to change but he can’t honestly say such a thing. Can he? Can you? I can’t, although I would love to be able to do so. The jury is still out, although it is not looking good for the alarmist position.
The Left wants Trump to declare CAGW to be a hoax. Then they can try to excoriate him because Trump cannot prove that position, so they catch him in a position he cannot defend. Is that what we want?
Some skeptics want Trump to declare it a hoax. But the evidence is not quite in yet and it would be jumping the gun to do such a thing.
We should all calm down. This is all going to work itself out in the end.
I was extremely disappointed that Trump did not dare challenge the lack of science behind CAGW, and the false claim that CO2 is pollution and has no benefits.
If ‘tough’ Trump is afraid to challenge the lack of science, then who will?
If Trump really meant he could rejoin a renegotiated Paris Agreement, then he may not be permanently (four years) out of all global climate change agreements — he just thought the current one was a bad deal.
Trump supporters are proud that he kept his election promise to exit the Paris Agreement … but they should also be worried that he said he might rejoin with better terms.
Trump will be gone in four years and the next President will be back in the Paris Agreement, believing the “science is settled” because no one in power challenges it, even Trump, who had nothing to lose because half the nation already hated him..
In fact, Trump may be gone in less than two years if the Dumbocrats and MSM succeed at their uncivil war against him.
Trump has been so demonized that I would not be surprised if some crazed progressive tried to shoot him.
“Trump has been so demonized that I would not be surprised if some crazed progressive tried to shoot him.”
Unfortunately, violent psychopaths take such demonizations as giving them permission to fullfill their inner violence urges. The Democrats and the MSM are definitely inciting violence on the Left. They are doing great harm to the United States.
The province of Ontario’s resident Mad Hatter, Premier Kathleen Wynne, was “appalled” by Trump’s decision. Of course she was given what she has done to the people of Ontario (she has a 12% approval rating) with her “green” energy (wind & solar) and her “carbon” tax. Approximately 300,000 manufacturing jobs have fled the province since 2006, for, as it were, less greener pastures. More could follow given Trump’s decision. That’s what happens when you double + the price of electricity. Wynne will be served with an eviction notice after next spring’s election despite all her gyrations to stay in power.
As for that Dorkmouse in Ottawa, PM Justin Trudeau, well, my moniker for him says it all.
“for, as it were, less greener pastures.”
I got a good laugh out of that one! š
The President made many good points in his speech which MSM are ignoring. I have extracted these excerpt from the transcript of The Presidentās speech
As the Wall Street Journal wrote this morning: āThe reality is that withdrawing is in Americaās economic interest and wonāt matter much to the climate.ā
Compliance with the terms of the Paris Accord and the onerous energy restrictions it has placed on the United States could cost America as much as 2.7 million lost jobs by 2025 according to the National Economic Research Associates. This includes 440,000 fewer manufacturing jobs ā not what we need ā believe me, this is not what we need ā including automobile jobs, and the further decimation of vital American industries on which countless communities rely. They rely for so much, and we would be giving them so little.
According to this same study, by 2040, compliance with the commitments put into place by the previous administration would cut production for the following sectors: paper down 12 percent; cement down 23 percent; iron and steel down 38 percent; coal ā and I happen to love the coal miners ā down 86 percent; natural gas down 31 percent. The cost to the economy at this time would be close to $3 trillion in lost GDP and 6.5 million industrial jobs, while households would have $7,000 less income and, in many cases, much worse than that.
For example, under the agreement, China will be able to increase these emissions by a staggering number of years ā 13. They can do whatever they want for 13 years.
Not us. India makes its participation contingent on receiving billions and billions and billions of dollars in foreign aid from developed countries. There are many other examples. But the bottom line is that the Paris Accord is very unfair, at the highest level, to the United States.
China will be allowed to build hundreds of additional coal plants. So we canāt build the plants, but they can, according to this agreement. India will be allowed to double its coal production by 2020. Think of it: India can double their coal production. Weāre supposed to get rid of ours. Even Europe is allowed to continue construction of coal plants.
In short, the agreement doesnāt eliminate coal jobs, it just transfers these jobs out of America and the United States, and ships them to foreign countries.
This agreement is less about the climate and more about other countries gaining a financial advantage over the United States.
We have among the most abundant energy reserves on the planet, sufficient to lift millions of Americaās poorest workers out of poverty. Yet, under this agreement, we are effectively putting these reserves under lock and key, taking away the great wealth of our nation ā itās great wealth, itās phenomenal wealth; not so long ago, we had no idea we had such wealth ā and leaving millions and millions of families trapped in poverty and joblessness.
The agreement is a massive redistribution of United States wealth to other countries. At 1 percent growth, renewable sources of energy can meet some of our domestic demand, but at 3 or 4 percent growth, which I expect, we need all forms of available American energy, or our country ā (applause) ā will be at grave risk of brownouts and blackouts,
Even if the Paris Agreement were implemented in full, with total compliance from all nations, it is estimated it would only produce a two-tenths of one degree ā think of that; this much ā Celsius reduction in global temperature by the year 2100. Tiny, tiny amount. In fact, 14 days of carbon emissions from China alone would wipe out the gains from America ā and this is an incredible statistic ā would totally wipe out the gains from Americaās expected reductions in the year 2030,
The United States, under the Trump administration, will continue to be the cleanest and most environmentally friendly country on Earth. Weāll be the cleanest. Weāre going to have the cleanest air. Weāre going to have the cleanest water. We will be environmentally friendly, but weāre not going to put our businesses out of work and weāre not going to lose our jobs.
The Green Fund would likely obligate the United States to commit potentially tens of billions of dollars of which the United States has already handed over $1 billion ā nobody else is even close; most of them havenāt even paid anything ā including funds raided out of Americaās budget for the war against terrorism.
In 2015, the United Nationās departing top climate officials reportedly described the $100 billion per year as āpeanuts,ā and stated that āthe $100 billion is the tail that wags the dog.ā In 2015, the Green Climate Fundās executive director reportedly stated that estimated funding needed would increase to $450 billion per year after 2020
America is $20 trillion in debt. Cash-strapped cities cannot hire enough police officers or fix vital infrastructure. Millions of our citizens are out of work. And yet, under the Paris Accord, billions of dollars that ought to be invested right here in America will be sent to the very countries that have taken our factories and our jobs away from us.
Interesting how the media hypes governmental and quasi-governmental cost analysis that is negative towards health care reform. But will either ignore or have a panel of their experts question the items you have raised.
LO…..+!+!+!+!+!+!+!
those should be plus 1…..+1+1 etc
Well, the NERA report has been widely criticised as being ‘worst case’ and ignoring many points…
https://www.mediamatters.org/research/2015/08/26/why-media-should-stop-citing-neras-flawed-study/205177
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=NERA+report+criticism&spf=1496481047024
Do note the Chinese now expect emissions to peak in 2020, not 2030.
Yep! Just like one would expect. Griff believes that words and claims from a communist state are more credible than the those from a leader of a Constitutional Republic.
One of the first things in your link says
“EPA Projects Clean Power Plan Will Reduce Electricity Bills, Provide Net Economic Benefits.”
This immediately makes the report useless. Find a western nation or state/province that has gone from fossil fuel based electrical generation to solar and wind generation and lowered their electricity bills.
Media matters? Why not MAD magazine?
“Media matters? Why not MAD magazine?”
And where to you go to for unbiased news?
“And where to you go to for unbiased news?”
*rolls the eyes*
There is hardly anyplace that reports the news without some bias so the term Unbiased News is really an oxymoronic statement
Has anyone actually turned on their TVs and listened to the hysteria? We are all doomed. Tomorrow (or maybe its the day after…) all ice will melt, giant tidal waves will sweep across the world, and it will also be 0.2C hotter! OMG!
I am going to drink that bottle of Campaign I have been saving…no sense it going to waste.
Assuming USA CO2 emissions mattered more than our money (ROTFL), the USA has reduced gross CO2 emissions from 6,000 million tons (maxed in 2007) to 5,300 in 2015. That’s better than a 10% reduction.
Yea us!
https://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/carbon/
Just remember what happened to the boy that cried wolf too many times, when there was no wolf. The people stopped believing him and his cries about an imaginary danger, and stopped paying attention to him.
It’s not a treaty. Did Obama submit it to theSenate in the first place? I recall not. A good old boy handshake can be just as easily be unshaken.
You are correct, for it is not a treaty for us, because the Senate did not ratify it.
By itself, the Paris Agreement is not a treaty, as I understand it, BUT it IS an extension of a treaty ratified by the U.S. Senate years ago, namely the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change.
The trick trying to be pulled is to say that since the U.S. Senate accepted THAT treaty, and the Paris Accord is merely the latest undertaking of THAT treaty, then the U.S. is legally obliged to stay in the Paris Agreement, which I think is bull. This line of reasoning would enable a major change involving untold additional amounts of money, hardship, adaptation pressure, etc. that the original Treaty did NOT specify, … WITHOUT any consideration whatsoever of additional negotiations to implement it as part of the original treaty.
In other words, you can’t just toss in something that causes a potentially huge additional stress without tossing in some additional negotiation to accept or reject this huge additional stress as a valid extension of an original agreement. It’s no longer the original agreement, hence, the original negotiation is NOT adequate to support it as part of the original agreement.
You might have read my comment in another topic about Twinkies. To summarize that: It would be like telling all the countries to implement a plan to stop eating so many Twinkies and call this an extension of an already ratified treaty. Bull !
Well, treaty schmeaty. What are they going to do about it one way or the other? Have hissy fits and tantrums and say mean things about President Donald J Trump? Oh, no, not that! If they want to enforce their treaty, let them send their armies and try to invade.
Pffft. Where I’m from we have an applicable two-word expression of sentiment beginning with “f” and ending with “’em”.
It’s not a treaty. Did Obama submit it to theSenate in the first place? I recall not. A good old boy handshake can be just as easily be unshaken.
Nicholas,
A ‘good old boy’ handshake is a binding contract, where I grew up. But then, Obama is not a ‘good old boy’ because his words and actions can’t be trusted. Please don’t denigrate the honest Americans that many respect as real ‘good old boys’.
You’re right that the Paris Climate Accord was not a treaty, as it was never submitted to the US Senate for ratification. It was a deceitful attempt by Barack Hussein Obama to create a personal pseudo-agreement that would be difficult for the next president to dismiss. To Obama’s chagrin, President Trump showed he was not intimidated by orchestrated socialist public pressure and rejected it with public alacrity.
Out where I am, New Zealand, very rural, a handshake on anything means commitment. But we do make quick decisions on exactly who we shake hands with on any deal.
@J Mac & Warren,
Handshakes are fine for two party transactions. But what we are talking about is like the two of you shaking hands on a deal that limits my ability to do things that have nothing to do with the stated objective of the handshake, and then reaches into my wallet to pay for it. No, Nicholas is right; a handshake is not good enough for that, no matter how well intentioned or pedigreed the participants might be. I have to be involved, and in this case that means the involvement of my two Senators, so that they can look after my interests.
Trump should also withdraw from the UNFCCC as well as the Paris Accords.
The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change was set up to select from the evidence and from time to time produce reports which would show that CO2 was the main driver of dangerous climate change and then a meeting in Rio in 1992 chaired by Maurice Strong produced the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change , later signed by 196 governments.
The objective of the convention was to keep greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere at a level that they guessed would prevent dangerous man made interference with the climate system.
This treaty is really a comprehensive, politically driven, political action plan called Agenda 21 designed to produce a centrally managed global society which would control every aspect of the life of every one on earth.
It says :
āThe Parties should take precautionary measures to anticipate, prevent or minimize the causes of climate change and mitigate its adverse effects. Where there are threats of serious or irreversible damage, lack of full scientific certainty should not be used as a reason for postponing such measuresā
In other words if the useless IPCC models show there is even a small chance of very bad things happening the Governments who signed the treaty should act reduce CO2 emissions. Since 1992 Trillions have been wasted on this dangerous anthropogenic global warming delusion but TRUMP and PRUITT get the SCIENCE RIGHT ā NATURAL CYCLES DRIVE CLIMATE CHANGE.
Climate is controlled by natural cycles. Earth is just past the 2004+/- peak of a millennial cycle and the current cooling trend will likely continue until the next Little Ice Age minimum at about 2650.See the Energy and Environment paper at http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0958305X16686488
and an earlier accessible blog version at http://climatesense-norpag.blogspot.com/2017/02/the-coming-cooling-usefully-accurate_17.html
Here is the abstract for convenience :
āABSTRACT
This paper argues that the methods used by the establishment climate science community are not fit for purpose and that a new forecasting paradigm should be adopted. Earthās climate is the result of resonances and beats between various quasi-cyclic processes of varying wavelengths. It is not possible to forecast the future unless we have a good understanding of where the earth is in time in relation to the current phases of those different interacting natural quasi periodicities. Evidence is presented specifying the timing and amplitude of the natural 60+/- year and, more importantly, 1,000 year periodicities (observed emergent behaviors) that are so obvious in the temperature record. Data related to the solar climate driver is discussed and the solar cycle 22 low in the neutron count (high solar activity) in 1991 is identified as a solar activity millennial peak and correlated with the millennial peak -inversion point ā in the RSS temperature trend in about 2004. The cyclic trends are projected forward and predict a probable general temperature decline in the coming decades and centuries. Estimates of the timing and amplitude of the coming cooling are made. If the real climate outcomes follow a trend which approaches the near term forecasts of this working hypothesis, the divergence between the IPCC forecasts and those projected by this paper will be so large by 2021 as to make the current, supposedly actionable, level of confidence in the IPCC forecasts untenable.ā
Climate hysteria is peaking in reaction to USA withdrawal but in a few years Nature will show Trump to have been ahead of establishment science in his embrace of natural cycles as the climate driver. The EPA should establish an outside group of empirical scientists to revisit the endangerment finding .This will show that the that the Anthropogenic Warming Paradigm was a delusion of the establishment academic scientists’ old boys club.
Dr Norman Page,
It’s late here and I don’t know the details, but I thought we were supposed to withdraw from any UN organization that recognized Palestine. According to Wikipedia (I know, dubious source), Palestine signed the agreement on April 22, 2016. The curious thing is that only “full members” of the UNFCCC are allowed to sign the agreement. Even the Holy See can’t sign the agreement because it is an observer state, not a full member.
First, how can Palestine sign if it’s not even a recognized country?
Second, that in and of itself should be legitimate grounds to leave the UNFCCC.
Trump wants to try to get a deal between the Israelis and the Palestinians. I don’t think Trump would want to highlight a disagreement over the Palestinians being granted membership at the UNFCCC, at this time.
EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt said the other day that the U.S. seat at the UNFCCC was “secure”. I inferred that the U.S. is not going to pull out of the UNFCCC, since Pruitt said “secure” as though it were a good thing.
He was saying that the U.S. still had a seat at the table, through the UNFCCC, after being asked a question about U.S. influence after withdrawing from the Paris Accord. Pruitt was affirming that the U.S. would still have that seat to sit in.
After Trump gives the Israeli/Palestinian deal his best shot, he may change his policy on a lot of things, depending on the results or lack thereof.
You are correct. Pl 103-236 passed by Congress in 1994.
And, Trump also promised to withdraw from Green Climate Fund. That is UNFCCC separate from Paris, with its Korean headquarters established in 2010. The exit from UNFCCC is the only means to escape GCF. And Article 25 of UNFCCC section 3 as well as Article 28 section 3 of Paris make exiting UNFCCC an automatic Paris exit. And only takes 1 year after delivery of written notice. So that is the legal path being followed.
“The exit from UNFCCC is the only means to escape GCF.”
That might put a new light on things.
Solar as a jobs program is just using picks and shovels to build roads instead of graders and backhoes. Sure, you can claim to employ more people, but it’s idiot economics.
I agree that President Trump’s decision to withdraw from the Paris accord was correct and wise. Amid all of the frenzied rhetoric that’s been in the media, I have read/heard the assertion that it will take nearly four years to fully withdraw. There is never an explanation of why it should take so long, or what obligations will remain in place over the four year transition. Because many WUWT contributors are well versed in these matters, I am hoping that someone here can provide the explanation. If you have the answer, thanks in advance.
Terry,
The answer is as simple as it is mystifying. one of the articles of the Paris Accord says any member can leave after five years. Since it was only signed last year, no one has been a member for five years.
Hence, another article says a member can leave after three years, but needs to give a one-year notice (if leaving before the five-year limit). That’s where the three/four year process to leave comes from.
The problem is, following the process gives a pseudo-legitimacy to the agreement in the first place. We should just say it’s null and void and walk away, and/or completely withdraw from the UNFCCCC. At best I can hope that Trump is walking a balancing act between keeping his promise and playing the international political game.
“The problem is, following the process gives a pseudo-legitimacy to the agreement in the first place.”
My sentiment, too.
See comment above. There is a clear path requiring 1 year.
We do not have money to support the Paris Climate Agreement. We have huge annual federal deficits, a huge federal debt, and hugh annual trade deficits. I extimate that the money the federal government is borrowing today will end up costing the tax payers more than 12 times the moeny borrowed to pay it back over the nest 180 years. Before we can possible help out we need to pay off our existing debts and turn our ecomony around so that as a nation we are making money rather than losing money as we are now.
In addition to our financial problems, there is no real evidence that CO2 has any effect on climate and plenty of scientific rational to support the idea that the climate sensivity of CO2 is really zero, hence the Paris Climate Agreement if implemented to its fullest will have no effect on climate. IT is just a big waste of money which we cannot afford.
If somehow we could stop the climate from changing, extreme weather events and sea level rise would continue because they are part of our current climate. So there is no benefit to be achieved here.
Whoa, whoa. “California, Connecticut, New York …….. pay 15 to 18 cents”. You’re a bit off there my friend. Here in CA near San Jose, my recent bill is for S0.20 a kwhr! That’s just the base (1st 338kwhr) rate. The next “tier” it goes to $0.28!! Welcome to the land of fruits, nuts, Democrats and insanity.
In watching various hysterics clamor on about how Trump is no longer the leader of the free world it dawned on me that his exit from the Paris Accord was an act of world leadership rarely possible or exhibited by a US president.
President Trump has lead the world out of the biggest global fraud in human history.
As the years roll forward and AGW is abandoned Trump will be vindicated and history will record his leadership of the free world to be precisely & immensely what the left is mendaciously alleging he has surrendered.
ask them how going along and following is a leader
“In watching various hysterics clamor on about how Trump is no longer the leader of the free world it dawned on me that his exit from the Paris Accord was an act of world leadership rarely possible or exhibited by a US president.”
Just ask yourself: Is there any other politician in the U.S. or the world for that matter, who would have done what Trump has done?
No Republican candidate could have stood up to the world’s elites this way. No Repubican candidate could have stood up to the dishonest MSM this way. It would never have happened without Trump.
The MSM hates and fears Republicans/Conservatives, but they not only hate and fear Trump, they loathe him for shining a light on their dishonesty and making them look bad. Deservedly so, I might add. They are every bad thing Trump says they are.
Now The USA is the “Free World”.
Can we just cut to the chase? The Paris accord was simply the globalists’ latest device to extract trillions of dollars from ordinary people’s pockets via the UN. And globalism is just the cool new world for communism.
+1 I’m amazed that people think there’s some kind of conspiracy theory when the Marxist/Socialist cabal is mentioned. I believe it’s because that’s what the MSM claims whenever it’s brought up but who believes the MSM anymore?
It is a conspiracy, but it is out in the open, they admit it is “not about the Climate or Environment, it is about wealth Distribution” and the killing of Capitalism (and Democracy).
markl:
We are rejoicing because we have had an important ‘win’ in a significant country (probably the most significant country). But the struggle continues in 189 other countries that remain on the global warming political bandwagon.
It is important that we build on the credibility achieved by our ‘win’ in the USA and don’t destroy that credibility with silliness.
You say
I suggest you get a ‘shrink’ to explain your problem to you.
Richard
“….I suggest you get a āshrinkā to explain your problem to you…..” Give up because you have nothing to say? I gave you direct quotes from high/influential members in the UN stating the purpose of CAGW and you discount it. Who needs help?
I suggest that there is a cabal that masquerades as communist/socialist, but only because it sells well to some . . not because those (I am quite sure) hyper-wealthy control freaks at the core of it have any intention of sharing their wealth/power with the little people. A “bait and switch” game, with “socialism” as the bait . . and good old fashioned elitism as the actual intent.
You may be right. I attribute the involvement of the very rich to either guilt and the “ism” support is atonement or their misguided attempt to make a difference in the world and nothing else to show for their wealth. I think the ideology controls them and they’re nothing more than useful idiots. After all, how many super wealthy people earned their money through Socialism?
Trump should have used his speech to strongly encourage states and counties and cities to comply with the Paris agreement. Then they would have no choice but to RESIST by immediately igniting and incinerating every garbage dump and tire heap under their local control.
Good call!
The 45-day European model forecast flipped from above normal rain to below normal rain over the past week. How on the world can it predict 70 years if it’s having trouble at 45 days?
The Met Office and the BBC can’t even get a 3 day forecast correct, let alone 45 days.
AC
Agreed, totally.
I now – pretty much – trust 24 hour forecasts here in London.
But carry a brolly, always.
Three day forecasts – interesting, but never to be relied upon.
Never – carry a brolly, always.
Even now, in the UK, anything past three days is absolutely a horoscope with numbers.
Elsewhere I the world, it may be possible to forecast a bit further ahead: –
“Atacama Desert forecast for June, July, August: – Dry.
September through December – Dry.”
I can live with that, although not there, thanks.
But here, in the UK [specifically, southern London] – no.
Just horoscopes with numbers.
Auto
Well, I am disappointed than nobody pointed out that today was a special day that goes well with Tea and even climate talk …..
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/06/01/national-doughnut-day-free-donuts-krispy-kreme-dunkin-donuts/361383001/
Nice and interesting post BTW.
Thanks, but I still missed out on free doughnuts dangit!
I am sorry if this is off topic but some Brad Plumer of NYT wrote a piece and refused to reference President Trump as Prez and only used Mr. Trump throughout the piece.
I will work hard to never read the paper again.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/02/climate/climate-goals-paris-accord.html?hp
Quite so, without the U.S. participatory payments into the Climate Green FUnd, the world will be unable to afford any mitigation measures to the model induced hysteria
This should have been his FIRST action, in my opinion. He should have given his year’s notice to withdraw, in order to have been done with the whole sordid mess. That way, he could formally get out in a year, and have three more years as president to follow up on this action.
… since getting out of the UNFCCC automatically gets you out of the Paris Agreement, as stated in the articles of the Paris Agreement.
Well, as I’m thinking about it, he might would have had to go to the Senate for that move. Maybe he is working on that one, and just postured to refuse to accept the Paris Agreement in the guise of “getting out”, which technically (supposedly) takes four years, according to the articles of the Paris Agreement.
I am beginning to lose interest in this issue. If something bad happens, all will respond to prevent reoccurrence. Until something obviously bad happens, most will do nothing.
Nothing more than “The Boy Who Cried ‘Wolf’ ” so far…
I was aghast and apprehensive when Trump was elected. But he keeps saying and doing things I love. How unfair is that?
This could be Trump’s “evil empire” moment. It was eight years from Reagan calling the USSR an evil empire, with derision and contempt from the elite, to the dissolution of the Soviet Empire, and universal acceptance of the USSR as having been nothing more and nothing less than an evil empire. I’m betting it will be less than eight years until the collapse of global warming pseudoscience!
One correction or fine point. In California (PGE) I pay $0.25/kHw on the average with Tiers running $0.60/kWh for marginal watts used in the summer. I”m already at European rates with ‘net-metering’ and Arnold-Jerry Economics. It ain’t even started yet. Great article nonetheless.
According to press reports, several business leaders exclaim that Trump’s policy is wrong because “climate change is real,” Does anyone out there claim climate change to be unreal?
This is the old 97% fallacy. Everyone pretty much accepts CO2 blocks radiation, even the three “denyerz” at the last senate hearing. What is less clear is whether it is a problem , one that requires up-ending the world economy and unelected world government .
NO HE HASN’T. He has said he intends to. That is not the same thing. Don’t count your climate chickens until they are hatched.
Until he signs an official notification that he is either pulling the US out of Paris Agreement and sends it the UNFCCC or gives official notice that he pulling out of UNFCCC itself, he has done nothing. He has only spoken.
He seems to be under the illusion that there is something to “renegotiate”. That is worrisome.
Of course there is something to renegitiate, I am sure if the rest of the world would like to give the US $100B per year and not expect them to reduce emissions he will stay in.
I watched his presentation . I believe he offered the openness to renegotiation as a means to defuse the issue of being close minded . His conditions and reasons for leaving the accord were very clear and economically based and overwhelming . Now it’s Europeans who are saying there is no renegotiation .
I at first wished he had been more blunt about the science being utter bs , but seeing the MSM hound Spicer in the press conference yesterday about whether he believed it all was a hoax when he had made that irrelevant by just citing the indisputable fact that ceding everything it would make an insignificant difference showed the brilliance of his presentation . The press’s perseveration on the issue made them look brain-damagely stupid — not that any of them will ever recognize it .
Overall , the press confefe really revealed it was all about the hit the cult of the State was taking , not rational economics or even “settled” science .
If Trump did not insure the paperwork to fulfill his Paris-withdrawal was completed, then this would make him the biggest liar ever. What?, you think he has been taking a firm stance all along on getting out, and then not doing the paperwork? It’s busy work, anyhow. The best way to get out is just do nothing that the agreement says. There are not legal sanctions enumerated in the agreement. It’s lame that way.
There’s something very wrong about an executive order of one president that can obstruct the executive order of another president, just because a treaty signed off on during the last months of the one president just happens to have a three year waiting period before the other president can enact his own executive order in regard to his own leadership rein.
I think new laws might need to be made to address this. The law surrounding this whole withdrawal thing seems very murky anyway. I can’t find a straight answer about the details anywhere, and I’ve consulted to lengthy law articles on treaty law, specifically talking about the Paris Agreement. This seems to be new territory that ignites a long standing debate between the various branches of government that apparently has not been settled.
Like climate science, the law surrounding withdrawing from treaties based on climate science, is unsettled.
“to” = “two”
How deliciously fitting that champagne bubbles are CO2.
Beer too .
And those in my cheap French fizz – about a pound a bottle, when I visit Calais.
Auto – in south London, so Eurotunnel is less than an hour and a half [at 0600!] away.
Paris Pledge Exit … One giant step for man kind ,one giant step back for climate conmen .
Germany and the white flag wavers of France can whine all they want because the United Suckers of America are no longer going to be duped by gullible dumb asses like Lurch .
The real problem for places like Germany is they have absolutely screwed the competitive position of their
industries by having energy costs triple that of the USA . Now it just got a whole lot worse .
The USA is going to kick their ass because of the globalist agenda is going off the rails .
President Trump just called bull shit on the earth has a fever a con game. The rent seekers and globalists can’t handle it . They need to find some other suckers fast.
Any politician that tries to push the global warming con game is going to be sticking nuts on donuts for a living .
I like your attitude, Amber. š
Virtually everyone here either knows or thinks that the science behind AGW/GHG is wrong BUT there is a huge spectrum of “opinion” on exactly how and why. Trump has no idea about this, he just sees the economic implications for the USA. His rejecting of the Paris Climate Treaty (for the *moment* – see renegotiation) may be a useful step in the right direction but it is not motivated by a desire to correct faulty science.
There is a window of opportunity to push the science angle now. I am well aware there are other highly significant “angles” to this issue;, left wing agenda, world government, etc but I rate the science issue by far the most important. The efforts we make should be directed in this area but they will be diluted if we start (continue?) squabbling about which alternative (to AGW/GHG) theory we want as a replacement.
Although logically and scientifically you don’t have to have an alternative theory when you are picking holes in the existing one (ripping it to shreds really in this case) it is inevitable that you will be asked to give one by the other side. So it really is time to make up our minds on this.
Are we going to go with ;
1. Yes, GHGs including CO2 are a thing BUT it’s effect is much smaller.
2. No, there is no such thing as a GHGs, the climate works differently.
3?. ? Feel free to suggest something else ?
In deciding between 1. & 2. What method would you like to use to make up your mind.? Hint – a science based approach might be useful, dare we suggest “experimental evidence”.
I say/suggest: Dirt
That 4-letter word, a really awful attempt at ‘humor’ is gonna consign us to the dustbin of history – assuming the lawyers don’t get there first.
Call it ‘topsoil’ or if you want science, how about ‘A horizon’
It is *infinitely* more precious & rare than coal/oil/gas/uranium/gold/diamonds/whatever and without it, all those things are utterly *utterly* worthless and useless.
Good topsoil, as sought by farmers for the last 10,000 years, contains carbon. Lots of carbon. In organic form as ancient cellulose & lignin, much as the countless trillions (per single handful) of bacteria and critters or simply just as charcoal. It also contains/requires a finely divided fraction of recently exposed (new) rock.
Ploughing & cultivation exposes those organics to sunlight, usually when the sun is strongest and highest – such as now in the Northern Hemisphere. This is where most people live (next to their food supply) and where the good topsoil is, not least as ice-age glaciations provide the fresh rock.
(There goes a beautiful theory about ice-age lengths and their timings. Take it that plants, via the water they contain while alive and certainly dead, drives weather and creates ‘climate’ The acidic nature of decomposing plants erode the rock fraction of the soil and when its used up, slow their growth, die and lose their control of the weather.
They decompose to CO2, an atmospheric coolant** and an ice age ensues. The CO2 slowly rains/snows out, the sun can then melt the ice. When it does, a load of fresh rock is exposed and the plants can flourish again, moderating the climate. Until, lets guess 10 or 15 thousand years they exhaust the rock and so the cycle repeats. Simple and beautiful as the best things are)
** Think about it. CO2 is high absorption it is therefore a strong emitter. By definition. If it warms the upper atmosphere it is effectively moving the warm part of Earth (the surface) closer to the cold part (outer space) The thermal path is thus shorter and the thermal gradient steeper. Heat loss is thus greater. CO2 cools. Also by nature of it being heavier than N2 and O2, it has higher thermal conductivity. More cooling.
1. Get some CO2 meters attached to weather stations. like the Wunderground network of PWSs.
2. Put some thermometers under the soil, also at these weather stations
3. Get some people out regularly (maybe 5 or 10 year intervals) sampling the carbon content of (especially) farmland soil.
4. Teach people (farmers especially) about *exactly* how nitrogenous fertiliser actually works in the soil
5. Get a bit more than the present fluffy woolly idea of what the Urban Heat Island is.
6. Get some clear headed and self confident people to do science. People who can entertain wild ideas (like this I hear you say) People who can do science without using a computer and are at least taught that a computer is nothing less than a reflection of its [programmer. People who don’t mind getting their hands dirty and most, desperately, utterly, crucially, people who will admit a mistake and can change their minds.
How much moolah have you just saved dumping Paris? Put 10% of it into what I suggest.
Maybe also, American friends, get a sense of humour. Then you won’t need to ‘invest’ all that dosh on bullets and bombs
;-D
Those academics who do not mind getting their hands dirty are on your side. Humus building is an urgent necessity and more CO2 in the air is the first requirement for that. All the bad CO2-“surplus” can be employed usefully as C un the ground.
Peta,
Given the continuing terrorist attacks in London, I don’t think ‘a sense of humor’ will change anything for British citizens or US citizens either. My heart breaks and my deepest sympathies go to the unarmed folks that suffered from those despicable atrocities.
As for how I spend a modest portion of my personal ‘dosh’, I’ll continue to exercise my constitutionally guaranteed 2nd Amendment rights for my hunting, recreational shooting, and self defense enjoyment.
“1. Yes, GHGs including CO2 are a thing BUT itās effect is much smaller.”
I would go with:
GHGs including CO2 are a thing BUT its effect on the Earth’s atmosphere is undetermined at this time.
“Undetermined at this time, but probably not very large.”
TA – a mite improved, perhaps?
The sensitivity now looks like ~1 degree C/doubling.
Perhaps even <1 degree C/doubling.
Maybe.
Nothing like the freak-shows' 3C-6C/doubling.
So, if we get to 810 ppm [doubling the current approximate Hawaii average (is that a very good/good/fair/poor/utterly lousy proxy for the rest of the planet's 190 million square miles? I have no idea, and I bet – ten British pounds – nobody else has either)] – so, if 810 ppm, it 'should' be a degree warmer.
Mostly night-times, in the extra tropics.
So Toronto will be -17C in January, not -20C or -22C. [All 'say' plus/minus] Welcome, but not likely to calve glaciers. Still -17C.
You all know the nautical term about "freezing the balls off a brass monkey"?
Well, it will still be cold enough to do that.
Differential expansion and contraction.
Auto, pretty p155ed off about the Marxians and Stalinists still, after Ronnie R's 'Well, I think we won the Cold War!', trying to steal our planet, condemn billions like me to a (probably unpleasant) death, and live it up thereafter; with several hundred million peons being enslaved, for practical purposes – and concubines – don't imagine the worldview excludes the propagation of like-minded children. . . . .
Mao, Ceacescau, didn't seem to need romance or love.
POTUS – DJT – has it right. Spot on. Thank goodness.
If only Mrs. May and her vegetables – next weekend – are in a position to eliminate 'renewable' subsidies and, similarly, ditch Paris and the kleptocratic nature of a presumed agreement between 'elites'.
Enough.
Hope you are ok, Auto. I noticed you mentioned you lived in south London in another post.
ā¦. ah, āAn American in Parisā
https://youtu.be/wlvzGT1Ta2w
ā¦ all that CO2 in the stage effects, how prophetic of Vincente Minnelli ā¦.
“….the entire process has been driven by computer models and hysteria….” Or maybe by money and power
“China and India are building new coal-fired power plants at a feverish clip. So is Germany.”
Let’s just look at Germany – is it building any coal power plants, let alone at a feverish rate?
No, it isn’t.
The ones planned under its 2008 programme (the intention then to have them replace nuclear) have all been completed or are in the last stage of being brought online. And there is a list -small, but growing – of coal plant to be retired.
https://energytransition.org/2016/10/germanys-last-new-coal-plant/
“Will another coal plant ever be opened in Germany? Only one is currently in the pipeline officially, and it has almost been completed… A wave of new coal projects is now over in Germany”
Whether a new coal plant is opened in Germany for their energy needs or not, Will a new coal plant be opened anywhere in the world to supply power to Germany?
“From suggestions that Earthās climate was balmy and stable until the modern industrial era, to assertions that humans can prevent climate change and extreme weather events by controlling atmospheric carbon dioxide levels”
Science does not claim the climate was balmy until the modern age. Rather it shows that the current influence driving climate change is human CO2 and that is producing a warming trend. Paris was not aimed at preventing climate change, but rather limiting it and thus its damaging effects.
Griff said:
“Science does not claim the climate was balmy until the modern age. Rather it shows that the current influence driving climate change is human CO2 and that is producing a warming trend.”
————————–
If science shows that man’s influence is producing a warming trend, then you should have no trouble producing at least one graph which shows direct correlation between temps and CO2atm.
Well?
Ps Your statement that “science does not claim… is ridiculous, at best.
I actually read a comment somewhere that it’s not CO2 per se that causes global warming, but the type of CO2, i.e,, man-made CO2. /not_sarc
Unfortunately, that is exactly what it does not show.
Quite the reverse. It shows no underlying detectable trend that correlates to CO2 increase.
What it reveals is that the climate is totally vulnerable to quasi periodic multi-decadal variations in Ocean current and air mass circulation, that happened to combine to match CO2 rises for a 15 year period in the later 20th century.
And stopped matching around the 21st millennium start.
You cant chant yer denialist mantra all you like, but mother Nature ain’t listening, and the smart money is on mother Nature, not the IPCC.
Science does not claim the climate was balmy until the modern age. Rather it shows that the current influence driving climate change is human CO2 and that is producing a warming trend.
?raw=1
I guess the following graph does not show HUMAN CO2, then:
That surely explains it — it’s the teeny, tiny percentage of CO2 that is HUMAN that’s causing the catastrophic warming/climate change.
I’ll try to find a diagram of a HUMAN CO2 molecule compared to a NON human CO2 molecule now. Give me a few minutes.
“Wind and solar account for 2% of overall energy needs” are you sure , I have 0.81 % and the problems are enormous-
“Even put together, wind and photovoltaic solar are supplying less than 1 per cent of global energy demand. From the International Energy Agencyās 2016 Key Renewables Trends, we can see that wind provided 0.46 per cent of global energy consumption in 2014, and solar and tide combined provided 0.35 per cent. Remember this is total energy, not just electricity, which is less than a fifth of all final energy, the rest being the solid, gaseous, and liquid fuels that do the heavy lifting for heat, transport and industry.
Such numbers are not hard to find, but they donāt figure prominently in reports on energy derived from the unreliables lobby (solar and wind).
Meanwhile, world energy demand has been growing at about 2 per cent a year for nearly 40 years. Between 2013 and 2014, again using International Energy Agency data, it grew by just under 2,000 terawatt-hours.
If wind turbines were to supply all of that growth but no more, how many would need to be built each year? The answer is nearly 350,000, since a two-megawatt turbine can produce about 0.005 terawatt-hours per annum. Thatās one-and-a-half times as many as have been built in the world since governments started pouring consumer funds into this so-called industry in the early 2000s.
At a density of, very roughly, 50 acres per megawatt, typical for wind farms, that many turbines would require a land area greater than the British Isles, including Ireland. Every year. If we kept this up for 50 years, we would have covered every square mile of a land area the size of Russia with wind farms. Remember, this would be just to fulfil the new demand for energy, not to displace the vast existing supply of energy from fossil fuels, which currently supply 80 per cent of global energy needs.
Do not take refuge in the idea that wind turbines could become more efficient. There is a limit to how much energy you can extract from a moving fluid, the Betz limit, and wind turbines are already close to it. Their effectiveness (the load factor, to use the engineering term) is determined by the wind that is available, and that varies at its own sweet will from second to second, day to day, year to year.
As machines, wind turbines are pretty good already; the problem is the wind resource itself, and we cannot change that. Itās a fluctuating stream of lowādensity energy. Mankind stopped using it for mission-critical transport and mechanical power long ago, for sound reasons. Itās just not very good.
As for resource consumption and environmental impacts, the direct effects of wind turbines ā killing birds and bats, sinking concrete foundations deep into wild lands ā is bad enough. But out of sight and out of mind is the dirty pollution generated in Inner Mongolia by the mining of rare-earth metals for the magnets in the turbines. This generates toxic and radioactive waste on an epic scale, which is why the phrase āclean energyā is such a sick joke and ministers should be ashamed every time it passes their lips.
It gets worse. Wind turbines, apart from the fibreglass blades, are made mostly of steel, with concrete bases. They need about 200 times as much material per unit of capacity as a modern combined cycle gas turbine. Steel is made with coal, not just to provide the heat for smelting ore, but to supply the carbon in the alloy. Cement is also often made using coal. The machinery of ācleanā renewables is the output of the fossil fuel economy, and largely the coal economy.
A two-megawatt wind turbine weighs about 250 tonnes, including the tower, nacelle, rotor and blades. Globally, it takes about half a tonne of coal to make a tonne of steel. Add another 25 tonnes of coal for making the cement and youāre talking 150 tonnes of coal per turbine. Now if we are to build 350,000 wind turbines a year (or a smaller number of bigger ones), just to keep up with increasing energy demand, that will require 50 million tonnes of coal a year. Thatās about half the EUās hard coalāmining output”
Add on that in about ten years you would need to start replacing the old turbines.
This is unsustainable.
Which bring me onto George Soros. He has been buying coal mines. Two questions
1. Is this so they will never re-open?
or
2. Has he crunched the number and knows the coal mines will have to re-open?
Wind turbines have a 25 year lifespan
http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/newsandeventspggrp/imperialcollege/newssummary/news_20-2-2014-9-18-49
The world’s first offshore wind farm just got decommissioned after running for 26 years
http://www.maritime-executive.com/article/worlds-first-offshore-wind-farm-being-decommissioned
And in 25 years don’t make enough revenue to cover their own depreciation. And the offshore windmills you refer to are in very shallow water 1-2 miles offshore. Not in deep seas 70 or more miles offshore. You never really like to tell the truth do you?
In Switzerland most windmills were refurbished or replaced after 12 years.
http://joannenova.com.au/2017/05/matt-ridley-wind-power-makes-0-of-world-energy/
From here. PDF file for the record.
https://www.iea.org/publications/freepublications/publication/KeyRenewablesTrends.pdf
“And the offshore windmills you refer to are in very shallow water 1-2 miles offshore. Not in deep seas 70 or more miles offshore.”
so what, how is that relevant?
Griff – The fallacy of wind turbines is revealed with simple arithmetic.
5 mW wind turbine, avg output 1/3 nameplate, 20 yr life, electricity @ wholesale 3 cents per kwh produces $8.8E6.
Installed cost @ $1.7E6/mW = $8.5E6. Add the cost of standby CCGT for low wind periods. Add the cost of land lease, maintenance, administration.
Solar voltaic and solar thermal are even worse.
The dollar relation is a proxy for energy relation. Bottom line, the energy consumed to design, manufacture, install, maintain and administer renewables appears to exceed the energy they produce in their lifetime.
Without the energy provided by other sources these renewables could not exist.
Hunter, they are the only offshore wind turbines decommed to this date… so the only whole life example we have.
Depressing to know that within 50 years an area the size of Russia would have a 1000 tons of concrete on every acre and a road system thru out that wilderness to build and maintain the windturbines.
The madness of the greens.
Think of the poor birds and bats. Talk about running a gauntlet.
Windmills over area size of Russia. Resources of rare earths Nd and Dy may not be sufficient for the purpose! May have to go ferro which would make for greatly lower efficiency mills. On a lighter note, did you know that the distance from Moscow to the Far East coast (Vostok means east [ŠŠ°Š»ŃŠ½ŠøŠ¹ ŠŠ¾ŃŃŠ¾Šŗ]) is about the same distance as Moscow to Chicago!!! That’s a lot of Woundmills.
But how to get this important analysis presented to the larger public square? The mad hatters, Soros, Gore, Mann, Hansen, etc., control the public square.
An interesting phenomenon is as climate change activists lose their battles and the issue sinks into the minor importance for most voters, the politicians that promote it keep getting elected. Over and over and over.
Germany.
Well the politicians can blame the scientists can’t they!
āWhen I use data,ā Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, āit means just what I choose it to mean ā neither more nor less.ā
āThe question is,ā said Alice, āwhether you can make data mean so many different things.ā
āThe question is,ā said Humpty Dumpty, āwhich is to be master ā thatās all.ā
Science in Wonderland.
I assume this is a scene from the ‘Science in Wonderland’ film (haven’t seen it yet) in which Bill Nye experiments with new ways to explain the greenhouse effect to his denier friends.
http://thepeoplescube.com/peoples_resource/image/22574
Bill Nye, the-not-a-science-guy-but-he-plays-one-on-TV: “See, Bruce, this is how the greenhouse effect works. Imagine this balloon is the earth’s atmosphere. Now I warm it up…”
Bruce: “Why don’t you use a heat lamp like the sun?”
Nye: “I like this way. Don’t you?”
Sadly the damage to manufacturing has been done – Australia’s manufacturing 60 years ago was almost 50% of GDP it is now 7% of GDP and about to get less. All governments over that 60 year period have sold out our kids rights to the jobs that were their entry point into full employment – Thats why youth un-employment is now so high. However keep up the fight so others will join in and make our nation strong and hopefully become independent of UN influences.
they did it for the grandchildren.
Has anyone noted that it’s REMARKABLY difficult to find out what the terms of the Paris Agreement actually ARE?
You can read the Document, you can also go to Paul Homewood’s forum and look at the so called promises made by each country and it’s actual efffect on CO2.
When you put it all together they are actually promising to INCREASE the world’s CO2 output.
I see Clive James tips a bucket on climastrology and it’s sycophantic mainstream media followers in The Australian today with- “Western climate change alarmists wonāt admit they are wrong” (paywalled)
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/inquirer/western-climate-change-alarmists-wont-admit-they-are-wrong/news-story/892c0088ec01f9186e068f55f2ca6794?utm_source=The%20Australian&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=editorial&utm_content=TodaySHeadlines
and he doesn’t mince any words in castigating them all in his inimitable style.
Paywall alert.
Without a subscription you’ll get a taste of Clive’s comprehensive spray over at Jonovas-
http://joannenova.com.au/2017/06/end-game-of-climate-wars-clive-james-discusses-how-it-plays-out-slowly/
We live in interesting times it seems with Trump dissociating the US from the Paris Groupthink.
observa
Excellent quotes.
Thank you.
Auto.
Enjoy some more quotes as it seems a commenter at JoNovas has a link to it here-
https://www.dropbox.com/s/a53ztcpsdi00fox/Clive%20James%20extract%20Mass%20Death%20Dies%20Hard.pdf?dl=0
Speaking if exits…
Toyota divorces Tesla
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN18U05E
Well their Pious outsells Tesla by a huge amount. No technology left to steal in Tesla.
While you are all focusing on the Paris and UN you fail to realize what drives CO2/GHG regulations in the US is the finding of endangerment for CO2/GHG by the EPA. As long as that stands, President Trump is merely one environmental lawsuit, one Federal Court order away from being forced to impose draconian GHG regulations. You haven’t achieved victory yet and you won’t see it until the finding of endangerment is withdrawn.
Gee, it’s painful grabbing at straws. Sounding gleeful about the problems to be solved I guess is all there is Left.
One minor point on terminology – CO2 is not plant fertilizer, it is plant food.
I think even “food” understates CO2’s role . It is the molar equal with H2O in forming the structural mass of plants and thus all life .
CO2 is the anabolic half of the respiratory cycle of life .
The leftist of the world would come off as more genuine if they weren’t such a preachy lot of fakes.
Musicians, filmmakers and their mouthpieces should produce their fantasies using nothing more than so called renewable energy.
They should stop building elaborate stages, film sets and should only shoot by the light of day.
Tents, not trailers.
Bicyles, not automobiles.
Everything related to their productions must be 100% green and 97% of their income should go to their mad, mad cause!
Railroads, not interstates. Ships and riverboats, not aeroplanes. But the leftist Greens are deceitful preachers of drinking water but swallow plonk galore.
The greens have rejected any of the world religions and created their own green religion which they dress up with science. In the end they have become horrific fundamentalist hypocrites. They are like the brimstone and fire preachers who rail against the gay lifestyle during the day while frequenting homosexual prostitutes at night. They are about as phony as a human can get.
Craig
But actors [both sexes – all sexes] are paid to mouth other folks’ words.
Talking heads on dramatic bodies, if you like.
Me – much less.
I suppose it is possible to wonder who pays them [useful idiots? Surely not.].
And who writes their scripts [Ahh – the puppet masters . . . . . . .].
Most actors are, I suggest, no better at atmospheric sciences than I am (One or two may not be that good. Possibly), yet a red carpet transforms their breathless drivel into Commandment chiselled into rock tablets, it seems.
Auto
Master Mariner, and award-winning [No! Not a Nobble] Voluntary Observing Ship Observer [Met. Office].
Today in downtown Portland, at 2:00 pm, I will show up at a pro-Trump rally. It is hoped that about 400 people will attend. (Yes, there might be that many forthright people in the Portland area willing to put their lives on the line to show support for Trump.).
Upon hearing about the Trump rally, “protests” were immediately planned by the Left. Earlier in the day (the first starting at 11:00am I believe) four (yes, four) different anti-Trump rallies will occur — their purpose being to rally all elements of the city against the “fascists” at the Trump rally. (One will include a mass feeding of the homeless to insure that the drug addicted and mental elements of the city will be gathered and properly galvanized.)
It is expected that a “totally spontaneous” convergence by the four groups on the Trump supporters will occur.
The police have vowed to keep Trump and anti-Trump supporters separated. (These are the police who were ordered to stand down after the election when rioting broke out in the Portland streets. Good cops with bad leadership.)
Maybe everything will be peaceful — with just name calling and a few bottles being tossed.
Eugene WR Gallun
Antifa is so effing stupid. A while back at a protest in Olympia WA, after the Trump people left the scene, the homeless people attacked and ran off the antifa crowd because they were sick of their nihilistic chit.
Antennas up, close the hatches, ready for action. Good luck.
Good luck, Eugene.
It is now 10:30 and I have been following the local news. The story line is set. Whatever happens it is the fault of the Trump people because they wouldn’t cancel their rally.
Eugene WR Gallun
As an add the Trump rally will have to take place on federal property in the city. The rally was granted a federal permit. The city has clearly stated they would never issue the Trump people a permit to rally on city property citing the potential danger such a rally would cause. The left never has problems getting a city permit. And the left never cleans up its garbage.
Eugene WR Gallun
Eugene,
You’ll be on federal property, but US Marshals and Park Police won’t be there to protect you from angry mobs.
Hope you wear a helmet and flak jacket.
Those fascists, I mean liberals, who protest on behalf of Hollywood and political elites, I mean the down trodden, are extremely committed to their narrow, megalomaniac single worldview, I mean diversity. Long live the resistance or something like that.
OH MY GOD WHAT AN EMBARRASSMENT!!!!!!
THE TRUMP RALLY IS FOR SUNDAY AND TODAY IS SATURDAY. I WILL NEVER LIVE THIS DOWN.
TALK ABOUT POETS NOT KNOWING WHAT DAY OF THE WEEK IT IS!!!!!!
EUGENE WR GALLUN
Well, if you showed up there today, you’d at least be safer.
Gee in the ’60s, we handed out flowers and kisses to the ‘establishment’. Whatever has become of unhappy youth!
Trumps speech was epic. Whilst the alarmists and other idiot world leaders have gone on the attack mode I have not heard one person actually say that what Donald said was not true. In fact from that perspective it was a brilliant speech. It was based on the economics and not the science. It actually makes sense to both alarmists and sceptics because why would anyone economically sabotage their economy when it is so clearly apparent that it won’t and cannot achieve the stated aim. This is true no matter what the science says. I think that any person who listens to what he said must question the logic of what is being sacrificed on the altar of the global warming gods. Cult beliefs are so entrenched it is difficult to deprogram people who have been subjected to such constant brainwashing and propaganda but Trumps speech is a good first step. Once progress is made in arguing the economics we can then try convincing these poor misguided souls on the science.
Today I started reading a book called ” The Great Illusonists” by Edwin A Dawes. Here’s something I found in the introduction (slightly edited by me for the meaning here):
“Professor A.V.Hill, distinguished physiologist and Nobel prize-winner once advocated that every student of science should be shown in his university classes how the skill of the conjurer deceives the human brain, including the ways this is achieved, that nothing supernatural is involved, only the fallibility of the human senses. Were this done, Professor Hill believed that fewer scientists would publish mistaken conclusions and incorrect observations. It is a well know fact among conjurers that the more intelligent the audience the more readily will they be deceived by conjuring principles of which they have no knowledge: cause and effect are so rapidly associated that the unexpected denouement catches them off-guard”
In my discussions/arguments on line with AGW enthusiasts it certainly seems that the cause (CO2) and effect (Global Warming) are very solidly linked in their minds. This is the area that needs to be attacked.
Yup another brilliant move engineered by the orange haired buffoon, the lame ass republican party and cheered on by the ingnorant masses that read this crap website.
Mark, the orange haired buffoon is incapable of engineering anything. He even has trouble with covfefe. You need to direct your scorn at Vice President Bannon.
You’re right. Got it backwards, engineered by the lame ass republican party and signed off by the orange haired buffoon.
The ignorance contained in almost every comment in this feed and indeed this website is astonishing. The media elite can be really proud for having pulled off the greatest disinformation program of all time.
There there, Mark, go take your meds and have a lie-down.
There’s a good troll.
Don’t get mad. Get an argument.
“the ingnorant masses that read this crap website”
Dripping with irony or is it just more of the usual leftist self loathing mark?
This seems to be Trump’s speciality – doing something notably sensible and making it look like an act of utter lunacy.
He did it with the so-called “Muslim ban”. It was an option that had been set up under the Obama administration, and if Obama had implemented it (say in response to the Boston Marathon bombing) nothing would have been said. Trump managed to do it out of the blue with no prior preparation and no guidelines issued to customs staff, and implied (or allowed it to be assumed) that it was the start of a national campaign against Muslims. Not a PR victory.
Now he has withdrawn from an environmentally ineffectual agreement (and the Greens would be railing against its ineffectuality, in the good old days when they still expected to win!) that appears to be deliberately designed to be unfair to the US. Of course he did. And he’s promised to renegotiate something better – not that *anyone* wants to be across a negotiating table from DT! – which of course nobody is taking seriously.
Actually, this is the nearest thing to a sensible decision I’ve yet to see Trump make, and it really has nothing to do with climate change. He is not a climate denier, or even a real sceptic. He is simply standing up for American interests.
I’m surprised. I didn’t think he really gave a damn.
Years ago when I was young, naive and idealistic I was on the board of the largest chapter of a major environmental group. I was also doing research that involved ocean currents and therefore also weather and climate. We suddenly had a influx of young, well educated, new members to our environmental chapter. One was elected chapter president. Because I was out spoken and also knowlegedable he invited me to lunch. Why? Because as he admitted he knew nothing about the environment and honestly didn’t care. He and “his friends” had joined in order to develop allies for their cause. Their goal was to bring together the socioeconomic liberals (think hard left) and the organized environmental community. “Together they would be a formidable political force. It was true prior to the global warming hysteria while both groups tended to be more liberal than the average American, they had never come together. The young man made it clear he hated capitalism and therefore also the USA since in his mind it was the bastion of capitalism. It was “their goal” to destroy capitalism and all the evils it had brought to the world. While the folks I knew at the time in oceanography were just beginning to discuss anthropogenic climate change, this young man was already spouting about how the world would come to end if we didn’t do something AND SOON. In other words what we are facing as a country is an organized socioeconomic attack on the USA. Why? because the left, many liberals and the hard core environmentalists see the USA, its economic engine as the only evil in the world. That they now have a cause, supposedly backed up my a consensus of scientists, that they can now use to kill the golden goose. Few of them see the USA as the freest, most environmental country in history and even those that will admit that will not do so in front of their friends. For the scientists involved it is all about the money. The millions we spent from the end of WWII until 1990 on weather, climate and oceanography, all dried up at the end of the Cold war. Where, oh where were their salaries and research grants going to come from? I once held the “keys” to a scientific grants program. What those in that field would do to get a piece of the action was profoundly amazing yet while at the same time lecturing everyone about proper Scientific Method.
Careful. Your personal experience notwithstanding, you are entering the “conspiracy theory” zone for some people that would prefer to ostrich and avoid the messy truth.
No conspiracy theory. This group of young people at the time lobbied all our members very, very hard to become more “socially concerned.” In fact it was from these folks that I first heard “social justice” used. They spent a great deal of time talking about how the environment and social justice were intertwined. They had all sorts of “data” they handed out supposedly supporting their arguments. I kept a file of the stuff they handed out for years but long since lost track of it.