New York governor Andrew Cuomo has announced plans to shut down the zero carbon Indiana Point Nuclear Plant, as part of his grand strategy to combat climate change.
New York Aims to Replace Nuclear Power With Clean Energy
Gov. Cuomo promises declining carbon emissions even as the state closes the Indian Point nuclear power plant.
By Jeremy Deaton
New York governor Andrew Cuomo announced plans this week to close the Indian Point nuclear power plant, which supplies electricity to New York City and surrounding areas. The plant’s two working reactors — which account for roughly 10 percent of the state’s power generation — are slated to go offline in 2020 and 2021, more than a decade ahead of schedule.
Some environmentalists celebrated the closure. Others lamented the loss of a carbon-free source of energy, despite nuclear power’s potential hazards to humans and wildlife.
…
Some states, like Illinois, have thrown a lifeline to nuclear, subsidizing struggling plants, lest they be replaced by carbon-spewing natural gas. New York, by contrast, is betting that the hole created by Indian Point’s closure will be filled with solar, wind and hydropower.
In a statement, Cuomo said the plant’s closure won’t drive up emissions “at the regional level.” Given New York’s ambitious climate policies, he might be right.
…
Read more: https://nexusmedianews.com/new-york-aims-to-replace-nuclear-power-with-clean-energy-468de752634
New York may have the hydro resources to replace Indiana Point, but even dispatchable hydro-electric systems have their pitfalls. States which rely heavily on hydro power face difficulties if the water runs out, as the Australian state of Tasmania recently discovered.
Having said that, it seems likely that New York has or will have enough interstate power interconnectors to ensure continuity, which will allow Governor Cuomo to virtue signal all he wants from behind a safety net of reliable out of state fossil fuel power sources.
Ah. Reminds me of California fighting drought by tearing down the Hetch-Hetchy reservoir. (A plan that didn’t go ahead.) Or fighting famine by destroying all the crops, fighting disease by destroying the hospitals, etc etc etc…
When the word “nuclear” appears, logic disappears.
As can be witnessed by the title of this article. 😉
It shall need to be respelled with a hyphen
Nu-Clear Energy
Lord save us from lackwits, hypocrites, and the scientifically illiterate!
SMH.
By the numbers
Topaz Solar Farm in California covers 9.5 sq mi
From WIKI
It produces 550 MW or enough to power 160,000 homes (need a very sunny place to work)
NYC has 852,575 residential units (2013) on 22.5 sq mi
that is 5.33 times the residential units that Topaz could supply.
To supply NYC via a similar facility you would need an area more than twice the size of Manhattan to power the homes on Manhattan, then Twice again to supply the businesses.
I have always wondered if the greens could be persuaded to oppose wind and solar power if we called them what they really are, indirect-cycle thermonuclear power devices.
That won’t work. You can’t make a catchy rant or sign out of it.
Recycle thermo-nuke
closing nukes to fight climate change,
fighting for peace, screwing for virginity
You’re right, it’s mostly Orwellian … on the other hand, please consider that there is only one way to produce virgins.
Ah, but in the coming brave new world…
To save the climate we had to destroy the world
On the other hand, refusing to fight does not always bring about peace.
Refusing to fight always brings defeat.
Don’t forget Rosie O’Donnell’s recent plea for Martial Law to prevent Donald Trump from being inaugurated.
We need Fascism today, to fend off the fascism that my teeth fillings are telling me we might have tomorrow.
Fred, that is funny stuff!
We here in Quebec are more than ready to fill the void (at a price, of course, and provided President Trump doesn’t hit us with a 35% Mexican-style import duty to “save American jobs”).
No doubt you are ready as you really, really, really need the money.
Trebla, it’ll be a surcharge to cover the social cost of unreliable energy.
Please, please, please, don’t sell the New York hypocrites a single watt. Let their constituents freeze in the dark until they revolt and throw all of these bums out of office.
Go ahead and sell them the power. With a significant surcharge attached.
Shutting down and dredging Hetch-Hetchy is a necessary step towards maintaining California’s diminishing watershed. Hetch-Hetchy has silted in. That happens to reservoirs. The concrete and generators are the expensive part. The dirt back filling the reservoir? Not so much. Dirt can be hauled off in trucks.
And is beneficial when used on agricultural land. Too bad EPA is the one standing in the way of both.
Yeah close all nuclear/hydro/coal power plants to save the env.
mountainape5, old soul, it is back to the caves, with little brush and tinder fires, no fridges, let alone i-Phones, and a life expectancy of <30 that is sought.
Most kids will never have known their grandmother. Grandpa long dead, hunting the pig [or the neighbours!)]
Auto, possibly – probably? – making a succinct précis of the watermelons' ultimate aim.
Ahh – and they will be allowed technology, no doubt, but us fly-over folk? Flint.
Germany got rid of all their nuclear plants and went all in on solar and wind. Electricity prices went thru the roof. CO2 was not reduced either as they had to fire up coal fired plants to keep the grid up.
Oh, so in fact the title of this article should be “New York NOES NOT Announce Nuclear Shutdown To Fight Climate Change”. Just checking to see if were paying attention.
Greg,
Do you have some nearby friends that can come and sit with you while you work through this?
Take a nap. Refresh. Take your meds, or lay off whatever is causing the episode. We all hope you find peace.
No, he’s right, the title is wrong.
I must need meds also, where in the article does it state what the title says?
“In a statement, Cuomo said the plant’s closure won’t drive up emissions “at the regional level.” Given New York’s ambitious climate policies, he might be right”
Sounds like he knows it won’t reduce them. So, John how long have you been off your meds? Sorry can’t help but using childish tactics on those who use them.
New York Announces Nuclear Shutdown To NOT Fight Climate Change
Yeah, that’d be accurate
Maybe it’s just me, but I figured it out I think.
Greenpeace was founded first and foremost as an anti-nuclear organization. The legacy is hard to overcome.
And were the founders of Greenpeace ALL idealistic folk?
Many were, I expect, completely idealistic, and altruistic; good on them.
Could there, possibly, have been one or two ‘useful idiots’ in the mix?
Humans are indeed harming the environment – dishonourable mentions: –
Animals’ and plants’ loss of habitat.
Occasional accidents – ‘Exxon Valdez’, and the Brazilian dam-burst a couple of years ago, as two amongst many; I am not in the market for comprehensive lists. Look them up on the ‘net.
A bad nuclear accident [the only one that is bad, compared with a nasty, three-figure death railway or shipping accident is Chernobyl], has been very rare.
Overfishing, over-logging, over-hunting [see Mastodon, extinction of]; [the Tragedy of the Commons, usually].
But the gas of life – CO2?
Give me a break!
And even if CO2 is mildly warming [unproven, whilst widely whispered in watermelon friends’ of the grant giving/seeking groups] – surely warmth is better than unremitting, bone-chilling cold? By shedloads.
Auto, with enough blankets to keep ME warm, thank-you!
Make them all live without electricity, plumbing, gas, modern medicine, petro-chemical technology, foods out of their local growing season or anything transported more than 10 miles from their “residence”. And no mulligans. Once they are on their reservation they, and their children, NEVER get back into the real world. Lock them into their prison and walk away. Same with muslims. Take Shari’a and use it to ram them into the mud, enforce it without pity, compassion or remorse. It is what they claim they want. Destroy them with it.
Mastodon? Really?
It’ll take a coupla black-outs (caused by over-reliance on under-reliable Renewable sources) for these idiots to come to their senses. By which time it’ll be far too late, since reinstating moth-balled thermal power stations (nuclear partic’ly) cannot be done in time to head-off the next 2 years’ worth of further black-outs.
And if the morons destroy, rather than mothball the thermal plants, read 4-7 years.
Stop the World … I want to get off. I can’t stand any more of the Green-insanity.
If a blackout does occur, it will be blamed on Russia or China or some other hackers. The evidence will be flimsy but it won’t matter because those who believe in “renewables” don’t believe in pesky things like verifiable facts. It will never ever be the fault of the wind farm or solar farm, even when it is.
The other side of that coin is that once all these plans are in place their grid will be that much easier to tip over the edge by people with malicious intent.
See South Australia. No power for a day. Premier announces an inquiry. Within a few hours “Renewables not to blame” announcement.
Andrew,
Thanks.
Could I help with the announcement?
“Renewables not to blame” announcement.
repackaged as
“Unreliable renewables not publicly to blame, at all!!”
Auto, noting that wind – at 2030 GMT – is giving 1.62 GW to the UK, ands Solar zilch; nada; the cube root of nothing at all. It is dark. Happens at night. Certainly in Winter.
No – not ‘Shock Horror’. not at all.
There are a couple of GW from hydro [not ‘green’ in California, but good enough for me (I have a very modest stake in a hydropower station on the Thames! Very modest indeed. more diversification that virtue signalling, but maybe a bit of the latter, too!)
the interconnectors about balance. Nuclear and coal are giving better than 16 GW, and CCGT [Combined Cycle Gas Turbines, I think] about 25 GW.
Sorry, Solar and Wind are hopelessly inadequate for the UK in winter.
In summer, they do make some useful input . . . . at a cost! But, happily for lovers of plants, most wind probably doesn’t ‘pay back’ the CO2 used in manufacture, construction, maintenance and eventual decommissioning. So more C)2 for plants.
Auto
Now Alex, you know good intentions trump scientific fact every time. Its a tenet of the liberal lifestyle.
After the terror attacks on NYC’s Twin-Towers. all or almost all of the functions of importance to the rest of the Nation have been duplicated in New Jersey.
Canada has exportable power.
Surely, the Gov and his people have thought of and worked out plans for all scenarios.
Right?
Regardless, “The Climate” doesn’t care.
Small thing, the correct name of the plant is “Indian Point”. The name appears to come from an amusement park by that name that was opened on the site in 1923 by the Hudson River Day Line. The Indians in question were Kitchawank who,according to folklore at least, once used the site.
Or used the site once?
“The Indians in question were Kitchawank
I was raised east of New York on this absurdly small island in the Atlantic, and I had to smile at this.
Reblogged this on gottadobetterthanthis and commented:
~
It is sad that so many who claim to love the earth and fellow humans, especially posterity, oppose nuclear power.
Nuclear is what we will use. Nothing else will work in the long run. Well, until we figure out fusion, but I’m not sure we can do that in even 100 years.
Lonnie, you notice all the examples of natural fusion we have are about the size of our local star?
Yep. Controlled fusion in small spaces (smaller than say, Texas, maybe the Moon) isn’t on the agenda. If we’re lucky and a little prescient, we’ll get to fusion, but we’ll need to get very good at fission first.
Oh, you said “controlled fusion.” I thought thought at first you said, “cold fusion.” What an underused source of power!
It will get interesting when the bird killing wind and anti-hydro alarmist greenies cross swords with Cuomo’s wind and pro-hydro greenies. Time to invest in popcorn futures!
It’s a disaster Bruce. A real disaster. 40 years and thousands of lives spent trying to solve the wrong problem.
Back in WWII, the Brits invented a counter-intelligence tactic. They’d build themselves a sophisticated looking box full of tubes, inductors, resistors, oscillators, all sorts of stuff. They’d take it out to some field in N. France and shoot it up with a machine gun. They figured every device found tied up a German lab for 6 months.
It’s the same plan being used against us.
OK so you are shutting down the power plant at Indian Point. Now what are you going to do with all the nuclear waste material that has been collecting and stored on site since 1962?
Perhaps if you ask Harry Reid real nicely, he might let you store it in Yucca Mountain.
Harry is gone. Obama will be gone. The Nuclear Waste Policy Act is still the law of the land. Look for a restart on Yucca Mountain licensing with a new Department of Energy. That questionnaire that was sent to the DOE had questions about Yucca Mountain on it.
What they ought to do with it is recycle it. So called nuclear waste has more than 90% of its original energy value. Burying it is very wasteful.
“So called nuclear waste” is good for you and your children and their children and their children and…
tony, if used to make more power, it is very definitely valuable to you, your chidren, etc.
As Walter points out, that “spent” fuel is valuable to future generations of reactors (and also people) so Yucca Mountain needs to be run a secure storage facility, it’s not a disposal site.
It is Indian Point, not Indiana.
Not helpful, but thanks.
I think it is helpful to be accurate. As well, the error makes the article appear uninformed, so people won’t read it. People like me, and I suspect I’m not alone.
Editor, please make the correction. It’s Indian point.
Ah, Dirty Harry Reid, the only man I know who can lose a fight with a rubber band. Much safer to leave the spent fuel rods scattered about all over the country in vulnerable locations. Much easier to secure dozens of sites rather than one. Derp.
There is only one way i have ever known for a person to get a black eye, and “gym mishap” aint it.
Problem is, there have been numerous people* admitting to the beat-down of Dirty Harry Reid; just shows how “popular” he wasn’t.
*(Bunch of wanna-be’s, apparently)
If only this were true.
Under the EPA’s Clean Power Plan, New York is slated to get power from New England during a shortage.
At the same time, New England is slated to get power from New York during the same shortage.
So far, nobody in New York, New England or at EPA seems to have a problem with this.
It’s the old joke that everybody will get a change of underwear. Bill will change with Joe, who will change with Tom, who will change with…..
Best hope the event the triggers the “shortage” doesn’t effect both New York and New England at the same time. The extreme event that causes the problem had better know to stop at the Hudson river, or else it will be in violation of EPA regulations.
I wonder who would get the fine? Pennsylvania?
Actually, the regional power failures that blacked out New York City DID stop at the Hudson River. New Jersey, across the river was not affected.
The lights shining from The Statue of Liberty, which is in New Jersey (not New York) never went out.
Sounds an awful lot like the situation in South Australia — depending on the neighbors for that nasty but reliable base load coal power didn’t work out so well for them!
Exactly like South Australia. And when the cable melts…
Quantum Physics?
This is crazy. A nuclear power plant has been built to serve about 50 years. Shutting down 10 years too yearly, is really crazy. Well, Germany shut down all its nuclear power plants, because tsunami destroyed a power plant in Japan. It looks like Greenpeace has the upper hand in these actions.
Germany hasn’t shut down all its nuclear plant. Its increased its coal burning plant.
Not many people know this.
New German coal plant built since 2008 (and now all completed: no more in the pipeline) replaced less efficient older plant. The slack from the overnight shutdown after Fukushima was entirely taken up by renewables, now 32% of all German electricity (and no blackouts: world’s most reliable or 2nd most reliable grid, depending on whose figures you take)
There are said to be 24 lignite stations in construction and planning in Germany. That was the last figure I saw.
While Germany continues to expand solar and wind power, the government’s decision to phase out nuclear energy means it must now rely heavily on the dirtiest form of coal, lignite, to generate electricity. The result is that after two decades of progress, the country’s CO2 emissions are rising.
by fred pearce
Lignite burning is higher today than at any time since the 1990s. It generates 26 percent of the nation’s electricity, more than solar and wind combined. No other nation burns so much
Preliminary information by AG Energiebilanzen (Working Group Energy Balances – AGEB) that German lignite-fired power production increased to 162 billion kWh has been widely reported in the media and commented by politicians and interested parties.
Lignite-fired power production increased from 160.7 billion kWh in 2012 to 162 billion kWh in 2013, accounting for 25.8% of the gross electricity production in Germany. This is the highest figure since 1990, the year after the German reunification in which many former East German coal-fired power plants were still in operation.
Green party members called on the government to canvass for higher EU emission allowance prices to curb lignite coal production, media reports said.
new coal-fired power plant has opened in Germany a day after an expert commission told the energy minister the country must triple its annual rate of decarbonization to meet its ambitious 2020 climate policy goals. 2015
“The slack from the overnight shutdown after Fukushima was entirely taken up by renewables,”
Griff
your stupidity astounds me !
you obviously cant even understand simple power data sets.
Lignite is what we affectionately call “burning dirt”. It doesn’t get any dirtier than lignite. Even in Griff’s fanatasy world.
@1saveenergy Even Griff is embarrassed by his stupid comments, to the extent of denying it is him making them! In his fantasy world people who call him out are “morons”- because “he doesn’t even comment on WUWT” apparently. Personally, considering the millennia of evolution, I doubt it is even possible today to have more than one person with his delusions who can also type and connect on the internet. Not even by coincidence.
I’m no engineer, but this is just a thought. Fucushima went critical because the power transmission towers were knocked over by the tsunami. The diesel generators were flooded. To avoid such a catastrophe, wouldn’t it make sense to build a water tower like the ones you see near so many cities. In the event of a power failure, the water from the tower could be gravity fed to the reactors to cool them, no? Or am I missing something?
It’s already been done, Trebla. Fukushima was a first generation plant built in the 70’s. We now have 3rd generation plants.
Put the diesel backup generators above flood level.
“Or am I missing something?”
yeah, a bit of math to calculate how big the water tower needs to be. A tower would be rather inadequate. What would be needed is a reservoir in the immediate foothills that could supply flow, or how about we go real simple and USE THE NEARBY OCEAN?
Oh…wait…isn’t that what they did?….never mind
From what I read, they had actually moved the diesel generators to higher ground, but the transfer switches were still below flood level, and there was no waterproof door on the room to the transfer switches.
And this problem had even been identified before the disaster struck…just no one did anything about it.
Because of stupidity, Japan built all its nuclear power plants on that seaside, where tsunamis occur. This word is japan and it means “harbour wave”. Japanese power plant owners had not heard about that risk?
Years ago I asked an engineer why Japan built nuke plants on the coast facing the Pacific Ocean. His answer was “Because stupid”. This was before the tsunami which took out Fukushima in a discussion about typhoons and their damage after Katrina. He was in Gulfport/Biloxi rebuilding various and sundry structures and I was home helping family put the pieces back together when the subject of storm surge came up over BBQ pig and beer. Deep and far reaching technical discussions often occur over BBQ pig and beer!
A dictionary.
They recently shut down the Clinton reactor in central IL. along with most of the coal plants.
Just because these reactors are shut down doesn’t preclude them from being restarted.
Where the government using logic or common sense is iffy.
Sorry forgot “is involved”
The reactors can be restarted as long as you have a year to train new operators, perform essential safety checks, put the nuclear fuel back in, relicence the operation. I may have forgotten something important.
Have a friend that works on nuclear power plants. If one is shutdown for any length of time the restart, if it even allowed. He says they are fanatical about safety and testing during maintainence and refueling operations, with good reason. But likely just about every foot of pipe and joint on the hotside will have to be pressure tested and examined for cracks, a long, slow process. Then the work of refitting stuff, testing procedures and inevitable changes will have to pass Dept. of Energy rules. It takes several months just to refuel- 24hr around the clock 12 hr shifts.
I wouldn’t wait until the lights start to go out to get started.
Yep. Shutting it down prematurely is fiscally irresponsible. But that is irrelevant to politicians.
Knowing airhead New Yorkers, I’m surprised they aren’t demanding that everyone stop breathing.
Correction, it’s Indian point, not Indiana point.
Did Andrew Cuomo’s parents have any children that lived?
It will be interesting to see how long many tech-dependent functions stick around New York once the intermittency issues start to come into question. There’s also the issue of elevators, lots and lots of elevators….
Inside the mind of every eco-zealot is a hamster running crazily on a wheel.
Could we harvest that energy for endless renewable energy?
The sad part is that the hamster is the most intelligent thing running around inside of that mind.
*Insert crying with laughter emoticon*
Best-of-both-worlds options are just not acceptable to the Prog-Left. It’s their world or bust, always.
And the word compromise isn’t in their lexicon.
Just bust, really.
Deluded reasoning…but Cuomo does have a point from an economic standpoint. NY is comfortably purchasing all the ‘excess’ green energy from Ontario, Canada at a great cut rate – and they have lots because consumption is down as Ontario citizens try to avoid energy poverty.
Jimmy, and then there is this as well : last paragraph:
“Having said that, it seems likely that New York has or will have enough interstate power interconnectors to ensure continuity, which will allow Governor Cuomo to virtue signal all he wants from behind a safety net of reliable out of state fossil fuel power sources.”
In other words, Cuomo can claim NY State has clean energy and who gives a damn about everybody else!
What a bloody hypocrite!
Realistically he can only claim that all electricity generated within the state is cleaner than other states but by purchasing power via interstate interconnectors that is sourced from fossil generation, he is being highly hypocritical and only telling half truths
“being highly hypocritical and only telling half truths”
Just like every other Green politician. But to be fair, they didn’t invent the half truth, just perfected it.
Given that Ontario’s excess energy is wind-driven, it can be expected to be highly intermittent.
I think shutting down this nuclear plant is a great idea. A lot of people don’t know this, but the REAL cause of global warming is occasional errant neutrons floating around in the air. If we can stop even one neutron, then shutting down the plant is worth it.
Those errant neutrons must have come from a CO2 molecule where the “C” was Carbon 14.
(If you can’t tie it CO2 and “Carbon Pollution” then “The Consensus” won’t accept it.8-)
Must be that nasty little evil genius Jimmy Neutron
A lot of people don’t know this, but nuclear energy doesn’t emit ANY CO2. It is therefore ‘clean’ energy by Green standards.
But it’s not like you to know that.
They are stupid : nuclear power plants do not send CO2 into atmosphere
It is paranoia caused by Fukushima and ramped up by the pushers of competitive (they think) renewables, to sway the pendulum of public opinion towards their interests.
Get out!
Seriously?
Wait, why did you specify ‘into atmosphere’? Is there somewhere else they DO send CO2? Numbered bank accounts in Switzerland or the Grand Caymans, maybe?
I knew those Nukes where up to something shifty. ○¿●
Those nuke power plants are so efficient at sequestration we’ve not heard anything about it. Amazing!
As someone who has always strongly supported the oil and gas industry, I have to cheer this closure of one of our low cost competitors! We never could beat their product in the free market, had to leave it up to government to do that.
Actually oil does not currently compete much with electricity generation, natural gas of course does except the loonies don’t like Natural gas either because it is so clean and still does emit CO 2 although less than coal fired.
If the government insanely pushes more electric cars, oil transportation would ultimately compete with electricity generation way down the road as the grid crashes.
What’s more than a decade ahead of schedule about 2020 and 2021?
The actual shutdown may be years away, but the operators would start to shut down essential maintenance activities. Things that would be expensive to do years later if a new government decided to keep it operating.
Interesting how USA states and South Australia feel confident their shortages can be met by “interstate power interconnectors”. Do they presume that when they themselves run short of power, their neighbours will have an excess which they can tap into? If I were their neighbour, I would be throwing the switch to cut off that supply if I were experiencing the same high demand for the same climatic reasons. Even if the neighbour is far-off Canadian, to rely on this sort of arrangement long term seems very unwise. At least it looks as if South Australia is realising that Victoria may switch off that lifeline!
I sure hope that my energy costs don’t increase as oil and natural gas is sent from the red states (OK, TX, etc) to the elites on the coasts. However, I would support a surcharge or increased transportation fees to get the essential fuels to those areas. Of course, they could allow more drilling in their states.
I wonder if the solar and wind industries have any plans to restore their sites once the panels or the turbines go bad. In Oklahoma, the OERB ( http://www.oerb.com/ ) is funded by oil and gas producers as well as royalty owners to help restore abandoned well sites.
Liz, coal companies have to post a huge cash fund to pay for restoration of federal land, once the coal has been removed. Wind farms? Not so much. Those things will never go away.
And they are a blight on the land, worse than cell towers. At least cell towers have an actual and beneficial use, unlike wind turbines, once they are dead they just stand there and drip oil.
You can just see all of truck mounted generators at each corner to keep the lights on. Love it.
Another example of why the Left is unfit to lead in the U.S. This is just delusional to want to shut this nuclear plant early. It makes no sense.
Cuomo should be proposing building more nuclear plants, not proposing to shut them down.
A good economic climate includes having cheap, dependable energy at your disposal, and this proposal of Cuomo’s will cause businesses to raise these questions. A mental roadblock to establishing a new business in New York.
Another mental roadblock to doing business in New York would be it having a governor who would suggest such an ignorant thing as closing a working nuclear plant in order to replace it with bird-choppers, and other “renewable” insanity.
One good thing about it: Each State in the Union gets to forge its own path, and if a moron in New York decrees something, that doesn’t obligate any of the other States to follow him off the cliff.
We will just sit back and reap the benefit of businesses locating in our neighborhood rather than in Cuomo’s neighborhood. Thanks, Andrew.
The left is unfit to lead anywhere, not just the USA.
‘carbon spewing natural gas’? Huh? What kind of natural gas would that be?
Good catch.
Coal gas. It used to supply heating and lighting in England.
This is the same Cuomo that saved the Fitzpatrick plant upstate at Oswego with extra rates for at least the next 12 years. So Cuomo says upstate plants are safe and downstate are not.
“..New York, by contrast, is betting…”
Not something governments should do.
If we really wanted to force tNew York to deal with the consequences of their foolish decision,we would be working to cut them off from energy imports from neighboring states.
My wife and I visited Indian point many years ago when it was first commissioned. We had a wonderful tour. Did you know that oil was used at that time to superheat the steam. I don’t know if this is still the case. We were free then. Security bull shit was not an issue. The steam turbine appeared to be about 6 feet diameter driving this huge generator the size of a locomotive. It was very impressive. So much for the past with the loons today. I believe each generation is getting more stupid than the previous. BTW I did. take some nuclear engineering in MIT (the field of the future) back in 1954-1958
There are two issues here. Cuomo did not ‘force’ Entergy to shut althoughnhe has been urging it given greenie pressure. Unit 2 was licensed on 1973 for 40 years, renewed for 20 in 2015. Unit 3 was licensed in 1975 for 40, and renewed for 20 in 2015. Unit 2 will close after 47 years, unit 3 after 46. Unit 2 is the most trouble prone reactor still operating in the US. These are very old gen 2 PWR designs. Unit 1, a gen 1 design operated from 1962-1974 when permanently shut because did not comply with then NRC safety standards. So Entergy has made a business decision based on economics.
Second issue is what replaces the 2000Mw of dispatchable capacity. It wont be wind and solar. Most likely is dispatchable power from Quebec Hydro, although a new CCGT would be feasible and very economic if NY woild permit the Macellus pipeline to Boston it is currently blocking.
What about the powerline situation from Quebec. My understanding is they want to block new HV powerlines, which means the NY City has a supply problem, as there is not enough transmission capacity to the city itself. Upstate NY enjoys low cost power!
@ Ristvan… Ahhhhh, finally someone with some actual facts to shed light on the equation. Thanks again for the vent-free input.
Les do you trust lawyers with facts?
“most trouble prone reactor”
Compared to what? Certainly not natural gas pipelines.
“These are very old gen 2 PWR designs.”
Like the ones China is not building.
Would ristvan like to comment on ‘very old’ automobile design with four wheels?
The reactor core is a new design every refueling outage.
What prevents nuclear plants from being upgraded to the latest tech?
The site is already cleared by every regulator or could be grandfathered.
Seems to me this would be the best solution.
What do you think?
For starts, the Dept. of Energy regs. Plus it would cost a lot more to design up to date equipment to fit into an old plant. Essentially they’d have to gut the building and shoehorn in the new equpment. It would be cheaper to tear it all down and start fresh.
I’ve got no problem cleaning the place up first but since the site is already approved for a nuclear power plant and that seems to be a major obstacle, it should speed up the process for a new install.
Nuke plants are always being updated with new technology after approval from the NRC when it can shown to be better. For example, digital control systems are replacing older analog systems.
I think there is a misconception about nuke plants.
There is a huge difference between my first car, a ‘60 Ford Falcon, and the cars being built today. My first commercial nuke plant based on improvements from the first generation is very similar to plants under construction today.
Ristvan is mostly right about replacement power for Indian Point. Hydro is more complex. Power from Hydro-Quebec is mostly purchased on a long term, firm basis, not spot purchases. There will indeed be some additional purchase by NYPA as a result of the shutdown.
New RE will indeed be a fig-leaf. What will happen is much higher utilization rates of existing gas-fired CTUs. And for all the handwaving, don’t expect any shutdowns of NY state’s existing coal-fired capacity either.
No, neither of these reactors is particularly trouble-prone. Both had good operating performances in 2015, running at 98% and 82%, respectively. And their lifetime operating capacities are also good.
You sound like someone who works for General Dynamics Electric Boat or Bechtel, people who know a little something about building nuclear electric generation systems.
Didn’t Andrew Cuomo already do enough damage to our country?
July 29, 1999 – [HUD Sec Andrew] CUOMO ANNOUNCES ACTION [Regulations] TO PROVIDE $2.4 TRILLION IN MORTGAGES FOR AFFORDABLE HOUSING FOR 28.1 MILLION FAMILIES
http://archives.hud.gov/news/1999/pr99-131.html
That was $2.4 trillion in sub-prime mortgages folks.
But hey – let’s blame that on President George W Bush – our national media decided.
Good point, garyh.
Cuomo and a lot of other Democrats spawned the bank crisis of 2008, not George W. Bush. This forced the banks to make bad loans which they tried to recoup by creating investment products to sell other investors that were made up of these bad loans. At some point this scheme had to collapse and when it did, we had the financial crisis.
Lots of blame to go around, but none of it belongs to George W. Bush. Bush is just the latest whipping boy of the Left. You will notice the Left always blames any problems on anyone but themselves. That’s standard operating procedure: Never admit blame. And they don’t admit blame, to the public, or to themselves.
But, the Bush administration must have liked it because they did nothing to stop it.
He had two terms to identify and prevent the mortgage problem.
This is where I expect Trump and his people to excel.
The President is at ther mercy/benefit of any number of economic policies. Not sure why the Bush admin was supposed to see the mortgage crisis coming and somehow fixing it. Taking action very well could have risked being the trigger. The games the Fed has been playing for the last 8 yrs luckily haven’t backfired, so Obama escapes relatively unscathed.
Bush actually expended a great deal of effort over a number of years trying to reign in the risk. Here’s one account:
New Agency Proposed to Oversee Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae “The Bush administration today recommended the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago.” NY Times Sept. 10, 2003.
The last couple of paragraphs give a hint as to how the Democrats and the national media would portray his efforts . . uncaring . . racist.
But you are correct, and I have made your point time and time again. Still – it’s important to understand who created the entire saga and those who protected those who created it, keeping the American people in the dark.
Still waiting for one national journalist to ask Andrew Cuomo (and many many others) questions.
When anyone tries to stop the madness, that person or group is called heartless, racist, and …more.
Housing policy has been based on the idea that a nation of homeowners is a good thing, so many policies are adopted to achieve that end. It would be better to simply give money to people and let them buy the housing they need. Instead, programs are set up to take other people’s money and pass it through a half-dozen agencies, each using a chunk, and most not doing any good for those that really need a home. Although not the first time, in the 1970s there was a massive loss via HUD programs. That made the government look bad and the programs were redirected so the (expected) failures could be blamed on greedy bankers.
None of this is surprising, but it is sad.
The Bush administration tried to tighten oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, but Democrats would hear nothing of it. At the time, they thought it was ridiculous to even imply there was a problem.
“As ranking member of the House Financial Services Committee, [Barney] Frank blocked tightened oversight over Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, saying in 2003, “These two entities … are not facing any kind of financial crisis,” and, “I want to roll the dice a little bit more in this situation towards subsidized housing.”
But that doesn’t stop Democrats from blaming Bush for letting them get away with blocking his reforms.
It was a law. Only congress change change laws.
Actually, no. It IS a regulation, not a law, duly passed by Congress. So a President CAN make it go away with the stroke of a pen.
“Bush actually expended a great deal of effort over a number of years trying to reign in the risk.”
Another good point and post by you, garyh.
Is it Indiana Point or Indian Point?
Indian – as in the Lone Ranger’s scout, Tonto
A government has been brought down by their renewable scheme!
“Northern Ireland will go to the polls on 2 March to elect a new Assembly after the executive collapsed over a botched green energy scheme.
Northern Ireland Secretary James Brokenshire was legally obliged to call the election after negotiations failed.
Stormont was plunged into crisis after the resignation of Martin McGuinness as deputy first minister last week.
The catalyst was the Renewable Heat Incentive (RHI) scheme, which is likely to cost taxpayers £490m.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-38641857
The Main Stream Media doesn’t like to give the details of this incompetence/corruption (or choose an alternative word).
Basically, the scheme offered up to a £160 rebate for every £100 spent on wood pellets used for heating. The problem was that it didn’t matter what was being heated, for how long and without any limit. Various people/cronies took advantage of this to set up heating any buildings (including unused barns etc and pocketed the difference.
The main tv outlets in Britain just refer to renewable schemes being overused leading to higher than estimated costs as if it was a sensible scheme with unforeseeable consequences!
SteveT
Ridiculous… Even if they don’t use the power themselves, some other state I’m sure would be happy to buy it, and it’s less CO2 emissions than Coal or natural gas (to use their own argument), so in the big picture shutting down the Nuclear Plant is increasing CO2 even if NY plans on replacing all of that capacity with Wind, Solar, or other.
The main reason for Nuclear cost is the startup costs. Once that’s done it’s near-criminal to shut it down before you need to.
I am a ‘carbon-spewing’ person. I like carbon-spewing things like me.
Does that make you a soot spewer???? Yes, it does.
TD?
Oh yeah!
soot spewer for sure.
There will soon be a new Nobel Prize for Carbon Spewing!
I drove through that area on the 7th January. There was lots of radio advertising supporting the plant.
Contrast this to upstate NY, where they are subsidizing a nuclear plant at Oswego to stay operational. Seems like a case of NIMBY for democrat party donors to me. If you want to see some irony, look up the April 29, 1986 front page of the NY times. It has the story about Chernobyl, and a story about Cuomo senior presenting a legislative plan to combat corruption. Cuomos and corruption are often in the same story!
New York will not be building any new hydroelectric plants either. Way too much local opposition everywhere (unless they can find existing dams with unused potential.)
Of course, the plant is not closing for at least five years, with the option to stay open after that. The agreement includes this: “Entergy [the owner of Indian Point] will request that the NRC shorten the term of a renewed license for Indian Point from 2033 and 2035 for Units 2 and 3, respectively, to 2024 and 2025.”
The news is that some sort of agreement was reached, but the details are not being reported accurately in the MSM….although they are available.
Oh noes!
Are you claiming they’re providing fake news?
Who needs reliable power in a stagnant state economy losing population?
Sounds to me that closing that plant rather than “upgrading/refurbishing it” is just plain stupid:
They’re not going to stop.
Both Hollywood and New York will become the next Chicago disgrace. Filled with the empty shells of spoiled rich liberals who touted Obamaisk income redistribution leaving behind now violent streets populated by those who could not escape the failed notions of these liberal rich idiots now tanning themselves under an equatorial Sun.
The way forward for New York is incredibly simple. Want decreased pollution? Rid yourself of systemic job killing regulations. Only in the freedom garden of self-determination will you find clean air and crystal water. Proven fact.
If he was really serious, Cuomo would take New York off the national grid. Let’s see how everything goes then.
It is astounding how misinformed some people are. The safest way of all to generate electricity is nuclear: http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/deaths-per-twh-by-energy-source.html
It is not astounding at all. Logic, science common sense and efficiency have nothing to do with it – at ALL!
To Dan Pangburn: >The safest way of all to generate electricity is nuclear< Tell that to the people in Russia and Japan.
Compare the number of people killed in nuclear vs. other types of power plants.
Then compare the number of people killed mining for coal and drilling for oil vs. mining for uranium.
You will find that nuclear is way safer, even considering the outliers such as Chernobyl and Fukushima.
Marty what do you want me to tell the people of Japan? No one was hurt by radiation let alone killed.
An unprecedented natural disaster resulted in the loss of life for 20,000 and property damage at nuclear power plants.
I think questioning authority is a good thing. In Japan getting to higher ground than the authorities was necessary would have saved many.
In the USSR, the evil empire, questioning authority would get you shot. Many firemen were ordered at gunpoint to save property which resulted a fatal dose of radiation.
The tragic loss of life in the USSR occurred in gulags.
The ” people in Russia and Japan.” are dumb f**ks who did dumb f**king sh*t.
Honestly…..you just couldn’t make this stuff up….seriously?
To shutdown the nuclear plant and replace it with anything, will require carbon dioxide emissions. Evidently the shutdown doesn’t have anything to do with reducing CO2 emissions.
“Some environmentalists celebrated the closure. Others lamented the loss of a carbon-free source of energy, despite nuclear power’s potential hazards to humans and wildlife.”
Go to Chernobyl, wildlife is doing just fine only humans prevent humans from entering the area.
Cuomo is determined, it seems, to bring back the “dumb wop” slur as a viable and accurate epithet.
He has already this week earned a lot of well-deserved hatred for his migrant actions. Realistically, by the shutdown time frame, expect molten salt reactors to becomes commercialized – just in time for Cuomo’s successor to buy several.
“States which rely heavily on hydro power face difficulties if the water runs out, as the Australian state of Tasmania recently discovered”.
New York can afford to do this because their hydro comes from Quebec – the largest hydro system in the world. The real stupid thing is that all the world WILL be nuclear or, if we’re lucky, fusion energy – but really that is nuclear too. We will run fossil fuels down and nuke is the natural successor -not solar or windmills. Also, world population currently stands at 85% of peak (~2050). The totalitarians have only 35 years to get their scam accepted because there will be no “problem” to milk after that. They have to get the CO2 under control before it shows itself to not be a problem so they can claim they saved the world.
Correction – … it is unlikely…
“Having said that, it seems likely that New York has or will have enough interstate power interconnectors to ensure continuity, ”
http://naturalgasnow.org/1000-miles-new-power-lines-cost-renewables-ny/
So, rely on power from a foreign country?
Canada may be a US ally and trading partner, but that to me would be a security risk.
A terrorist attack on the Canadian side of the border at the right time could bring down a significant part of the US grid.
Do that in the depths of a harsh winter, and a lot of people could freeze to death.
Better shutdown than meltdown!
Your grandchildren will be quite cozy with the only alternative that works, nuclear as fossil fuels run down and become more expensive.
” fossil fuels run down” only because environazi hacks in government are shutting off access to them. Just as they are shutting off access to nuclear and hydro electric generation, and they have now begun the efforts to shut off access to wind and solar. What, again, is the “alternative” source they want us to use? They are against ALL electricity generation, so exactly what is their final goal?
Why don’t you try learning something before displaying your ignorance?
“Better shutdown than meltdown!”
Really! One cold winter night we had a test to scam the reactor. The load dispatcher said no. He said many would die if he lost one more power plant.
A melt down is only property damage.
The climate change we are experiencing today is caused by the sun and the oceans over which Mankind including governor Como, has no control. There is no real evidence that CO2 has any effect on climate and plenty of scientific reasoning to support the idea that the climate sensivity of CO2 is really zero. Even if all sources of CO2 were shut down in the State of New York it would have no effect on global climate. If climate change could be stopped dead in its tracks we would still experience extreme weather events and sea level rise because they are part of our current climate. Maybe they would be better off stopping all forms of transportation that makes use of fossil fuels. The horse breaders would really like that. Another approach would be to replace greater New York City with the woodlands that were there before Mankind destroyed them.
I think the environment people want us to live like in middle ages. But that’s not possible, not with 7-10 billion people on earth. So there is no way around innovative energy managing. Whatever.
What ever we do, Mankind must switch to alternate sources of energy before the Earth’s finite supply of fossil fuels runs out. Mankind must gradually reduce the Earth’s human population enough so that the alternate sources of energy will supply Mankind’s needs. It is the problem of Mankind’s out of control population that we can solve and need to be solving. If Mankind does not control his own population then Nature will, catastrophically.
In other words, we have to get off this planet. Let those timid souls who fear the dark huddle here in fear, Humanity must go forth.
NO!
Andrew The Insane is always good for a laugh.
Eric, Moderator, whomever. Make a note that California has already begun the process to shut down the Diablo Canyon nuclear plant for the same reason. It defies logic and economics.
I’ll be dead soon. That’s my consolation.
“I’m no engineer ….”
I am an engineer whose primary specialty is nuclear safety. After supervising the operation of US Navy nuke ships, I went to work at civilian plants. While I interviewed at Indian Point and was offered a job, I ended up at a BWR (same design as the larger plant at Fukushima) during construction and startup just south in Pennsylvania.
Part of my training, is making decisions during an emergency. We have guidelines for what we can do to save a life and protect property. So I would risk radiation poisoning to stop bleeding of a coworker but not to protect property.
“went critical because the power transmission towers were knocked over by the tsunami.”
A reactor is said to be ‘critical’ if the nuclear chain reaction is self sustaining. Reactors are designed to safely shutdown in all situations including seismic events. No reactor designed to US standards has ever failed to safely shut down because of an earthquake including those at Fukushima.
What was not designed for was the magnitude of the the tsunami. We do design for the unexpected including an extend loss of AC power. We call them ‘beyond design basis events’.
“water tower like the ones you see near so many cities”
Here is the rub when dealing with the unexpected, all the suggesting made by those who think others are stupid, none of those would have worked either.
At TMI and Japan, core damage was delayed and release out of the containment was slow. No one was hurt from radiation. The plant manager pulled his workers back when it was not longer safe because of industrial safety issues.
Curious, unbiased, asking who photographed the statue of freedom, french origin.
stumbling upon
“According to the Hungarian state audit office, Jobbik has an annual budget of $2.34 million, most of it from a state allowance to parties in parliament. Jobbik denies giving financial aid to other groups. But they were happy to invite Hromoslav Skrabak, 19-year-old leader of Slovakian fascist group Slovenska Pospolitost.”
strange, global neighborhood.
New York Aims to Replace Nuclear Power With Clean Energy
Gov. Cuomo promises declining carbon emissions even as the state closes the Indian Point nuclear power plant .
.lost in transition.
This is the best line Ive heard to sum it all up: One of the most massive scientific lies ever recorded is about to break off from a vast accumulation of propaganda and melt away.