Guest essay by Eric Worrall
The US Senate is considering funding for albedo modification geoengineering experiments – pumping particles or aerosols into the stratosphere, to reflect sunlight back into space, and counter the alleged impact of elevated CO2 levels on global climate.
According to ScienceMag;
To fight global warming, Senate calls for study of making Earth reflect more light
Budgetmakers in the U.S. Senate want the Department of Energy (DOE) to study the possibility of making Earth reflect more sunlight into space to fight global warming. Earth’s reflectivity is known as its albedo, and the request to study “albedo modification” comes in the details of a proposed spending bill passed by the Senate appropriations committee to fund DOE, the Army Corps of Engineers, and related agencies for fiscal year 2017, which begins 1 October. The bill does not specify how much money should be spent on the research.
Critics argue that albedo modification and other “geoengineering” schemes are risky and would discourage nations from trying to reduce their emissions of carbon dioxide, the heat-trapping gas that comes from the burning of fossil fuels and that is causing global warming by absorbing increasing amounts of energy from sunlight. Still, climate researchers say they should find out what its potential of albedo modification might be.
“The recommendation is great,” says Joyce Penner, an atmospheric scientist at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor. Albedo modification “is not a solution to global warming, it is only a way to avoid, perhaps, a tipping point in the climate.” David Keith, an atmospheric physicist at Harvard University, says, “Ignorance is not a good basis for making decisions, so learning more about this is extremely valuable even if we find out that it will never work.” Keith adds, however, that the few existing studies suggest albedo modification could help ameliorate some effects of global warming.
The call for further research comes in a bill that would provide $5.4 billion for DOE’s Office of Science next year. It also builds on the recommendations of a February 2015 report from the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) entitled Climate Intervention: Reflecting Sunlight to Cool Earth. That report warned explicitly that albedo modification shouldn’t be deployed now because the risks and benefits were far too uncertain. Still, the committee urged further research to find out what those risks and benefits might be.
It is difficult to imagine a more ridiculous waste of taxpayer’s money.
The US spends taxpayer’s money regulating coal plants, forcing any coal plants which survive Obama’s war on energy, to fit expensive scrubbers, to remove particulates from their emissions.
If this measure is passed, the Department of Energy will get to spend even more taxpayer’s money, burning sulphur and other compounds, to generate and emit the same types of particulates which the US government previously forced domestic US coal plants to scrub.
If you threaten to change albedo’s the NAACP will want to talk to you.
All they need to do is create white plastic sheets with Styrofoam Floatie edges and float them in the Arctic/Antarctic Oceans during the summer. They will naturally conglomerate in the ocean, as images of floating plastic garbage islands would seem to indicate, and would also separate for the occasional passing ship of fools
Clean air act can bee replaced ?
It is now brighter sunshine (and warmer) due to less particles in the air.
They must want more acid rain in order to grow blueberries?
All you have to do is turn off the SO2 scrubbers on existing power stations and voila! you have lots of sulfate particles in the atmosphere to reflect the sunlight.
Just put sulphur back in jet fuel. Use sulphur free from one tank fot take off, so smog controlled, then swap to high sulphur at altitude where you want it. Zero cost as removing t he sulphur adds cost…
You most not be from Californie … Way back when, MTBE was a required additive for fuel and fuel providers raised their prices to be able to retool their facilities so it could be added. Only later was it discovered that MTBE in boat motor fuel contaminated fresh water used for drinking. Fuel companies then charged us more to not put it in
The lunatics are running the asylum. QED
AFAIK, Republicans have a controlling majority of the US Senate. Too many of them are obviously Believers. The Warmist juggernaut appears unstoppable.
aren’t they already …um……chemtrails?
(someone had to say it first)
Just more evidence the right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is already doing…
…Jesus weeps.
I thought it was Jesus Swept
Very often the right hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing. Don’t give these morons too much credit.
Heck, the index finger doesn’t know what the ring finger is up to.
That’s only because there is some damn bird in the way
Tiburon, yes they are. Surprised you got that through the filter. We do our best to follow them from their location of origin, usually anywhere from Richmond to Moss Vale, as they drift out over the Sydney basin, gradually spreading out to form what we call “white sky.” How could H2O do that in a relative humidity of less than 15% on a bright sunny day with no other type of cloud? We decided to ask the BOM but our questions became too difficult …er.. inconvenient.
Only purely empirical evidence will be acceptable on this site, such as (hopefully) that from spectroscopic analysis of such trails as they are being laid down. Unfortunately we’re running a little short on funding until the Big Oil cheque comes in.
They’ve been doing over me (Northern Central California), and/or to my West, for at least a decade. Blatantly obvious, massive at times, not the slightest doubt in my mind.
JohnKnight April 21, 2016 at 10:02 pm
Thanks John,
A couple of weeks ago there were trails appearing in widely separated parallel pairs, seemingly originating just west of Katoomba. They extended as far as I could see to the north and south without seeking a higher elevation. When a pair was directly over my house I estimated a separation of about 15 to 20 degrees. At that time the next pair would be visible through the trees to the west and the previous two pairs to the east. I wondered if these clouds might have formed naturally, so I looked for any evidence of rolling turbulence which could hold them in such tight formation. That happens sometimes when a north-easterly brings long rolling clouds in over the Queensland coast. But I could see no indication of turbulence whatsoever. They just hung there in a non-turbulent layer of air that drifted slowly east toward Sydney.
About 50km to the east of my position and 2000ft closer to MSL, observer #2 was at the same time watching the earlier trails in the series as they passed over his house. They were somewhat dispersed but still held the same pattern of parallel pairs. By the time we discovered them they already covered at least 80km east to west, and we dare not guess the N-S spread. Can they be natural? I think the pairing discounts that possibility. So could they be con-trails?
They don’t line up with any commercial traffic that I’m aware of, but they did originate in the vicinity of Richmond Air Base. Even so, do con-trails behave like that? I watch any plane that leaves a trail, to see how long it takes to dissipate. Many trails from commercial jets don’t last 13 seconds. A few can take several minutes. How do dozens to hundreds of trails last (in their entirety, dispersed but not even partially dissipated/sublimated) for more than half a day, leaving a “white sky” in which additional con-trails freely dissipate or fail to form?
Slacko April 21
Aircraft are following a ground track while flying in a cross wind that is less than a 10th their speed. The contrail (water from the engine eflux freezing into ice crystals) left behind will drift – in the same way as clouds do, with the wind. 10 minutes later (a standard air traffic control separation) another aircraft follows the same air route and leaves a similar contrail. This may continue all day. The observer on the ground will see a series of evenly spaced contrails.with the space between them dependent on the wind speed.
Contrails only appear when the air at the aircraft level is sufficiently humid that the extra water added by the engine eflux does not evaporate despite its heat but condenses and freezes. If the humidity is just barely enough for contrails then the contrail forms then the ice crystals sublimate back to water vapor. This leads to what is called non-persistent contrails that form then fade. At the other end of the spectrum the water in the air at the contrail level may be supercooled but not condensing as there are no cloud condensation nucleii. A contrail forming in air with a lot of supercooled water vapor can be the trigger for the water to start condensing out. This is what is seen when the single contrail seems to grow into a thin layer of cirrus.
No such thing as chem trails.
The humidity at the surface has nothing to do with humidity at altitude.
Secondly you have to understand the differences between the behavior of water droplets and ice crystals.
Sheesh, the unmitigated ignorance of some people.
It’s ice, it’s 6 or more miles up. RH at the surface has nothing to do with contrails and what governs their formation and persistence.
Each and every person who declares a negative with certainty in this realm, is either an imbecile or liar, as far as I’m concerned . .
John, so you are really taking the position that unless someone can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the govt is doing things to the atmosphere via jet exhaust, you will continue to believe that they are?
And to think, you are calling others imbeciles.
Readers, please consider carefully;
How could commenters here know with certainty that things for which there are (numerous) patents, and which are not illegal, have not been going on at all, I ask?
For all I know, when i leave the house for work, my two cats put on reading glasses and read War And Peace.
But I doubt it.
About as much as I doubt chem trails are anything more than a figment of some overactive imaginations.
Well, apparently it won’t be long before you will know for certain it’s happening . . I mean the spraying, of course ; )
Thanks Ian W for that explanation.
Some people’s minds are so open that their brains have fallen out.
If I have this straight, according to John, everything that hasn’t been disproven conclusively, must be regarded as being true.
yeah and if their not chem theyre STILL pretty damn good at obscuring your skies.
your govt WAS using and on record for geoengineering way back since Vietnam days
just coming out of the closet partway I reckon.
Have their little minds ever considered that they might just tip us into an Ice Age? Whatever respect I might have perhaps had for US politicians and the Senate in particular has just vanished. When will this madness end?
You give them more credit (“little minds”) than I would.
I wonder if they’ve considered the liability of their actions–how many $Trillions will this impact the world’s GDP if what they propose works, especially considering how devastating it could be.
No worries, they will not actually do anything except spend five billion dollars researching, keeping the grants going and reinforcing with MONEY closed minds.
Just what I was thinking Alastair.
Pin-headed fools.
And what timing…just when we are likely about to undergo a period of natural cooling which may be quite dramatic.
So, given natural variation, how the hell will they know if what is done on purpose had any effect, and if so, how much?
Too bad my lifespan would not allow me to laugh at all these nitwits when Earth plunges into the next ice age…
Are you planning to live only 5 years?
The fact that I have grandchildren whom I love very much is why I will not be laughing. Oh, and their parents, too. What stupid,
arrogant idiots we have become.
Aaak!!
They’ve been doing it for decades. This is just the formal public acknowledgement.
It’s the government … which means, there’s no limit to the amount of stupidity of which they are capable … and they still get paid on a regular basis, which is all they truly care about.
So I was a kid in the 80s, and we read stories in our grammar books set in a future where the earth was colder because of all the aerosols. There was also one where the whole sky was so hazy kids didn’t even know what sunglasses were any more. There was also an episode of Superfriends where aliens had done the same to their planet and we’re trying to migrate to earth because it was warmer.
This story would be a lot funnier if it were as fictional as those I read and saw as a child.
and changing the albedo over the USA will have no effect (good or bad) on any other country. Trust us, we’re from the Government.
Just when you thought it couldn’t get any worse. When have we ever played with nature without unintended consequences?
Geoengineering: billions will die.
If you read the statements of such as Maurice Strong you will find that this is the intent.
The statements of the anti-humanist population reduction crowd who designed the UN program aren’t PC here. One of the critical myths of the AGW-scam is that bigotry, emotional bias and censorship are attributes only of AGW-alarmists. Acknowledging that this is a political issue disguised as science is evidence of dissidence as serious as acknowledging that the sun controls earth’s climate.
So, I wonder if Canada and Russia might sue the U.S if they tried this. Geez, I would WANT more warming where they are . . . 🙂
My thoughts, too. After Pinatubo, we know what happens.
Plus a bunch.
I thought Canada now bought into the scam?
Here’s something OT, but refreshing (to me, anyway). An educational program about weather, climate and earth’s atmosphere, which, from the glossary, doesn’t seem to have a single mention of the demon gas! Or AGW or CAGW or climate change. Perhaps there’s hope for us, yet.
http://sisko.colorado.edu/FESD/MeetPresentFiles/2013.GEC.3.21.pdf
A few more Kracatoa or Pinatubo eruptions should do the trick.
Mt Aso would also function well in this regard and it appears to be waking up
The EPA wants to penalize you for creating particulates, the DOE want to spray particulates everywhere. The goal is to get tax payer funding with save the earth schemes. Someone should get funding to create dry ice to cool the earth, to balance the CO2 sequestration.
the lies they have been telling us for so long now have lost their minds and want to start the new ice age
The warming crowd is worrying about cooling happening anyway. They know that the “pause” was real – look what they did to get rid of it – they karlized it. The plummeting ENSO temperatures looks like they will have to add a lot more to warm the temperatures up. We will be back into 20 years with no warming if they let La Nina develop. I thought Ted Cruz headed up the Senate Sci and Tech committee? Oh, this is probably a Dem committee for something else. They want to ram through a train of items before the government changes and high on the agenda is to get something going so they can take credit for the cooling that they are worrying about.
The lies they have been telling us for so long now their plan is to start the next ice age!
Actually, they keep telling us that the ideal conditions for us is exactly what was going on back during the Little Ice Age. We are supposedly wanting to have ice cover the oceans offshore of Delaware when Washington crossed during the Revolution.
Washington crossed the Delaware River, from Pennsylvania to Trenton, New Jersey, and attacked the Hessians unawares.
It was Christmastime, and the river was choked with ice, which rarely happens anymore and never so early.
Kudzu
What could go wrong?
Especially if as forecast we get a little natural GLOBAL COOLING in the next 30 years.
Lunatics!!!!!!!!!!!!
PS.
“the heat-trapping gas that comes from the burning of fossil fuels and that is causing global warming”
the looney tunes have double back. a full circle so to speak, notice the term global warming?
Weather control… What could possibly go wrong?! GK
@ G. Karst, The US ( as the USSR back in the days) gov has tried it for years going back decades. I have tried to find info regarding the efforts to use “cloud seeding” that caused flooding in the 50’s and 60’s there is no info on the net any longer.
oh theres some around re the years n govt usa.
I will see if I can locate the page n add a link for you.
its rather interesting seeing WHO in your prior govt knew/knows.
ok the one I was really hunting for was from around 2006 or slightly earlier and has the DOD notes and names
reckon its stashed on a old semi dudded pc from memory a female writer Robyn? someone
its not there…or I missed it?
but this one has the bit re mods in asia etc
http://www.globalresearch.ca/environmental-warfare-climate-modification-schemes/16411
“Ignorance is not a good basis for making decisions”
Careful mate! Your bosses don’t agree with that kind of radical thinking.
They haven’t cared about that yet, why start now?
We are 19 trillion in debt and now this. Is this real or is my matrix program completely messed up? Idiocracy is here.
well, technically, including unfunded liabilities like Medicare, Old Age Security, etc, speaking of the USA only – it’s more like 100 Trillion in debt.
…and total world debt (both private and governmental) is said to be $710 Trillion. That’s 10 times the annual world GDP of ~$70 Trillion. Talk about unsustainable.
Correct. just look at http://www.usdebtclock.org
Sander’s is promising to increase US spending by 50% and Hillary is not too far behind.
They are promising $10billion a year in new taxes.
First off the new taxes will only bring in half what is promised and even if it did, it would only cover a few percent all the new spending.
The question is no longer if will the US collapse, but how soon.
The particles produced by burning sulfur are droplets of sulfuric acid, mixed with water that they absorb from the atmosphere. These are not the solid particles of concern from coal fired lower plants.
Sulfuric acid forms from sulfur trioxide and water vapor. Sulfuric trioxide forms from sulfur dioxide reacting with some nitrogen oxides or ozone, but some is directly produced by burning sulfur.
The EPA considers sulphur dioxide and trioxide to be a pollutant which should be scrubbed from flu gasses.
https://www3.epa.gov/ttn/catc/dir1/ffdg.pdf
May have to put scrubbers on volcanos as well!
Have you ever known what happens when SO3 reacts with H2O? Do them chemistry. That’s H2SO4, sulfuric acid.
The particulate is a different story, but considering the expense I go through annually to prove I have no sulfur emissions, a plan to release them en-mass is just plain insulting.
I remember reading about Intellectual Ventures in Superfreakonomics some years ago:
http://www.intellectualventures.com/news/press-releases/intellectual-ventures-answers-about-geoengineering
The problem with a “solution” like this is the lack of a government revenue stream…
thanks DB – good link
I read about this too. I like the Freakonomics guys, they don’t mind shooting a few sacred cows…
particles of concern from coal
==========
those would be CO2. there are already regulations for everything else.
This doesn’t surprise me. When it actually cools, they’ll say they instituted the plan and claim it is working. The kool-aid drinkers will drink the kool-aid.
Therein lies the great risk. They will believe they know what they are doing, and proceed with even greater “adjustments” to the atmosphere. Incremental steps will give way to oblivion.
Nothing could of course go wrong in a chaotic non-linear stochastic system in which the politics is settled and the science is politics. Crimes against humanity springs to mind.
Beautifully said, Manfred!
I am quite satisfied with the albedo where I live in Australia so I do not want foreigners changing it thank you!
I couldn’t agree more.
I had hoped Willis Eschenbach would have visited this thread to tell us what will happen if we partially block the sun with aerosols…..why, the clouds that form in the afternoon in the tropics will just form later and we will get the SAME amount of heating that we got before the geoprivateering experiment. Aw just give 1% of the 5.1B budget 50M!!! What in hell kind of experiment is going to cost 5B? I’m worried with 20trillion deficit that future government will only think in minimums of a few 10s of Billions.
Read Niven and Pournelle’s “Fallen Angels” (http://www.amazon.com/Fallen-Angels-Larry-Niven/dp/0743471814/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1461296339&sr=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=Niven+Poirnelle%27s+fallen+angel ) to find out where this is going!
(Greens take over and “clean up the air”; turns out that CO2 was the only thing holding back the next ice age.)
Fallen Angels is one of my favourite sci-fi books, did a writeup of it 🙂
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/06/22/prescient-fallen-angels-a1991-satire-of-climate-alarmism/
Except that for this to be true, CO2 would have to be having some large effect on the temp of the Earth.
Which the near twenty year pause, during a time when atmospheric CO2 increased by more than ever, would seem to disprove.
We may not need any “cleaned up air” to see a harmful cooling trend, and “cleaning up the air” may have no effect on climate, but will almost certainly have a huge toll on human lives, comfort, and prosperity.
Worldwide depression, widespread famines, massive depopulation via starvation, and a near total economic collapse sound appealing?
Not to this kid it don’t.
Excellent idea. Once the albedo is changed above the US then the rest of the 7 billion people on Earth can watch how this changes the CO2 around the 323 million in the US and perhaps conduct the same experiment to change the albedo above their location. Perhaps the odd cantankerous person or so might choose to keep the albedo above their house as it is!
It’s naive to single out the US. Every place on earth where the US has allies and/or military bases is already inundated with the subject of this thread. They know the world is beginning to cool and they need either to be able to say “Look, we did it” or “See, we told you it would get warmer.”
Those whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad.
We are there.
Given that climate “forcing” by CO2 is much less than these fools think it is, any scheme of this kind, if it were successful, will drive the climate system into an ice age.
Not to worry Ed. If their plan does go overboard and cools to much they can just drag out an old scheme they came up with during the 1970s next ice age scare. It was to add carbon black to the polar ice to reduce the reflected energy. Should cost no more than 5 billion to study.
This scare me more than all the crazy greens put together.
Who can assume that man knows every answer about nature?
Maybe the US needs Trump!
Roger
http://www.rogerfromnewzealand.wordpress.com
“We’re from the government and we’re here to help.” ( fix something that isn’t broken)
NOT
No good can come of this.
With more resulting asthmatics being produced and dying from particulate inhalation, this will solve the overpoulation problem too. What a win win prospect! /sarc
This is all nuts. The entire thread and comments on chemtrails, geoeng,… Just nuts.
Man and his hubris, only outdone by his stupidity.
Makes me wonder if any of these chem trail peeps have a pilots license, or enough money to rent a private jet and go up and take some samples.
I think the answer must be no to both questions.
Contrails affect albedo. The evidence is that they affect the temperature difference between day and night rather than the average. ie. They don’t make it cooler overall. link link
Do the proponents of the Albedo Modification Geoengineering Proposal give any evidence that their results would be different?
“Do the proponents of the Albedo Modification Geoengineering Proposal give any evidence that their results would be different?”
They just need $5.4 billion. They’ll get what ever evidence they pay for.
Funding to fund a solution to a non-problem.
Your taxpayer at waste…er…work!
Without getting into wacko chemtrail speculation, airliners burn kerosene which, amongst other things, contains sulphur. When burnt it will produce sulphate aerosols and like vehicle engines lots of small particulates.
The planes spend most of their time cruising in the lower stratosphere, just above much of the visible cloud cover near the tropopause.
If atmospheric conditions are close to the point where condensation into cloud will happen, the presence of these pollutants ( which act as condensation nuclei ) will cause an increase in cloud. So yes there are trails of chemicals released by commercial aircraft that on some days will lead to persistent and even spreading light cloud.
The experiment is already in place, all we need to do is measure it.
We also have data from the last two major statratospheric eruptions showing what climate reaction to a massive injection of sulphate aerosols in the stratosphere is :
https://climategrog.wordpress.com/uah_tls_365d/
Note the blowback: after the initial disturbance the has cleared the stratosphere cools, permanently, indicating that is more transparent or ‘clearer’ that it was beforehand.
What any such experiment is likely to do is CAUSE EVEN MORE GLOBAL WARMING at the surface.
Now before we start playing at being the sorcerer’s apprentice we’d better make sure that there is even a problem that needs addressing.
So far it looks like the warming that happened between 1975 and 1997 was probably due to volcanoes now AGW, if the “well-organised multi-billion dollar campaign of dis-information” that has hijacked climatology would get of their butts and do some real science instead of spewing out an endless stream of spurious correlations and projections from defective climate models, maybe we would have a better understanding.
sorry: “volcanoes, not AGW”
@ Greg, 11:17, April 21. I will never forget the 2 days after 911, no air traffic for 2-3 days, the sky was clear and I kid thee not, we had birds sit our laps as if they were saying thanks for no noise/pollution etc. I have pics of a blue stellar jay eating out of my hand. never happened before or since we live rural and have animals around us all the time but that had never happened to us before or since.
Too bad the airports resumed flights. You could have had the birds make you a dress so you could go to the Ball with your stepsisters. I’m hungry, can somebody pass me a slice of unicorn?
Yes, the birds must have felt in instant benefit from the reduction in all that CO2 “pollution” , no wonder they were happy.
A study did find stronger incoming radiation on those days. Sadly there was not control for how much of that was due to weather variability, so it remained inconclusive.
‘So yes there are trails of chemicals released by commercial aircraft’
That insidiously dangerous dihydrogen monoxide that kills thousands of people every year.
Worse still…it won’t wash off!
A little learning is a dangerous thing – the children’s story about the Sorcerer’s apprentice comes to my mind. And would the Americans really have the gall to try it out without the rest of us agreeing to it??
Unhappily, the answer to your question is “Yes”.
Seems a better solution might be to tax global warming zealots according to their degree of green nutdom… If taxing stuff leads to less of it, that would be a win for common sense.
Pretty sure we’re already doing this.
…Mother Nature will not be impressed !
Didn’t we use to do this with manufacturing in the 70’s? Wasn’t all the noise back then about aerosols killing us? Didn’t we talk about acid rain and create EPA regulation to clean up the air with mass particulate reduction?
Environmentalism starts with you – so the greens tell us, and they are right – each of us should play our part. What I propose may sound “politically incorrect” but no disrespect is intended, so please bear with me.
Geoengineering solutions might come from an unlikely sourse – the late pop legend Michael Jackson. He made a bold individual contribution to lowering albedo, by whitening the color of his own skin.
The POTUS himself should consider doing something similar, to back up his green rhetoric by making a personal contribution to increasing global albedo.
Citizens of the UK could likewise banish their unfortunate reputation for poor dental hygiene, and get busy chemically whitening their teeth, following the example of their environmentally responsible North American cousins. When it comes to green – or green whiteness – we all have our own part to play.
The parts of the body that are exposed really aren’t enough. If we follow your line of thinking, we would all have to go around naked to maximize our albedo enhancingness. We also should dye our hair silver.
Actually, you have it backwards. More albedo means more reflection so Jackson raised his albedo.
Just have everyone wear white shirts.
But not before labor day.
huh? There’s actually some ozone layer left and they want to kill that too?
Yes ozone is part of the equation too. NASA estimate the stratospheric ozone dropped by 5-8% after Pinatubo, presumably the same thing happened after El Chichon. Nothing to do with CFCs.
Much of the drop in TLS I showed above was due to ozone depletion.
This current idea is so screwed up it should be laughed at. The most likely result would be even more global warming as happened as a result of the those volcanoes. They will then say OMG , AGW is worse than we thought we need to do even more “corrective measures”. This will continue until they reach a tipping point and trigger the next glaciation.
CAGW lunacy goes from idiotic to downright dangerous.
Oh brother…Holdren was talking about doing this years ago. His choice of particulate? Sulphur. (Seems to me if he wanted to do that we should have let the coal-fired plants continue to pollute.) Seriously, though, the volcanoes will take care of this. If man starts tinkering with it, we’re going to end up doing the same thing they did in Yellowstone. Didn’t they learn their lesson?
It is an ill wind that blows nobody any good. They would have to compensate everyone who might benefit from warming.
The arrogance of the idea that the earths ecosystem is something one country gets to tinker with is pretty breathtaking.
Only an imbecile would do uncontrolled experiments on a planet they were still living on.
SRM is at the very least being experimented with make no mistake.
Sulphur in fuel has increased over the past years hasn’t it? I was under the impression that the extra sulfur in fuel that provides more fuel pressure was the cause of the whole “chemtrails” hysteria on the internought.
Contrails do last hours and spread out over the sky, I have seen this first half in an afternoon, I wonder what causes the change in reaction, there must be a change in the emissions from the jet engines.
Why is no one even noticing the change in the skies.. and that silver sky that used to be dark blue, and all those fluffy clouds have made way for this white whispy mist stuff
of course it is always precarious bring this up incase one gets boxed up with the crackpots lol.
I watch jets fly by above my house at all levels here in Florida.
I live under the approach for RSW…the planes fly close overhead when the wind is from the West, or has a Westerly component.
And Florida has a LOT of air traffic.
I see the same thing here that I saw when I lived in Orlando, and on the East coast in Deerfield Beach…the atmosphere here rarely lets condensation trails form…it just evaporates after leaving the plane.
The sky is a deep blue most days, and the clouds are fluffy and white.
If you do not like the sky where you live, best get moving to somewhere you will like it better.
Hurry though…Florida is nearly full up, like Tuscany!
Geoengineer is another “climatologist” area where there is no real science just postulating.
David Kieth is a self professed Geoengineer, and talks of killing another 10% of pollution related deaths with sulfur and aluminum to keep us cooler.
Yet another one, and yes scientists discussed this a while back, setting off a nuke in a volcano LMAO
This is the hysterical thinking CAGW has created.
But Solar Radiation management via aerosols is widely discussed the major scientific institutions.
As for messing with weather, didn’t the US military cause floods and storms in Vietnam?
As far as I know (not entirely certain) China used the process to put smaller particles into the air that were more stable when they attracted moisture so preventing rain.
If these technologies are around, how on earth do we know who is doing what and what effect it has on climates and weather.
We don’t…but as this thread shows, we (collective we) sure can imagine just about anything we want, dream it up and project it onto reality…right out of thin air!
Okay, here’s my counter-proposal. Replace all asphalt surfaces, streets, highways, parking lots, driveways, with concrete. Bingo! Instant albedo and millions of jobs and a boom in the paint industry. No chance that any other nation would be affected by our corrective measure.
I was flying across the country the other day and looking down the whole time, trying to keep track of where the plane was using my memory of road patterns and shapes, and where various rivers and dams and lakes are.
But I noticed something else while I was looking down…the roads are tiny thin pencil lines, widely spread outside of the smallish urban areas…a tiny fraction of the land surface.
Ditto for buildings.
Most of the US is fields and forests, and I mean the vast majority. Roads only look big on maps.
A Frightening prospect. If successful it would probably result in a rapid re-entry to the ice age. After all the hot spot, which is crucial to the hypothesis , does not exist. There is also a total failure of the alarmist mob to recognise that the warmth from el ninos such as the 1997/98 and the present one has absolutely nothing to do with CO2.
Apparently some of the Senators have relatives and friends who own businesses in the geoengineering/albedo modification field. And then when the grants are awarded these Senators retire to be consultants there.
It is high time we repeal the 17th Amendment and go back to the original Constitution where Senators were appointed by State legislatures.
Surely that would exacerbate the situation, perpetuating the buddy-buddy system?
No, Senators would then be beholden to the States rather than private interests. If the State legislature changes to reflect the changes in ideals of the voting populace, the incumbent is out at the end of the term and a new Senator is appointed that better reflects the current voice of the people. Of course Senators would fight this tooth and nail because it would not be in the best interests of the incumbent or his/her backers.
That the senators would represent the interests of the states in Washington was the original purpose of the Senate.
90% of the garbage that is passed these days wouldn’t see the light of day in such a situation.
They are totally insane. “Let’s deliberately pollute the air to make it colder as if there is a volcanic eruption or dirty coal burning’.
Imagine what the “carbon footprint” will be as a result of the endless travel miles from burning thru $5.4Bil in research and meetings….. And we know how the DOE likes to travel around to meetings to make sure that “progress in all areas is excellent”.
I thought that’s what the ‘paint all the rooftops white’ flap a few years ago was all about. Then someone realized that all that weatherproof white paint would have dumped thousands of tonnes of VOCs into the atmosphere… 🙁
There are very few things that are certainties in science, bu one of them is the Law of Unintended Consequences. Unintended consequences can be grouped into three types, in increasing order of likelihood:
RARE – Unexpected benefit: A positive, unexpected benefit (also referred to as luck, serendipity or a windfall).
COMMON – Unexpected drawback: A negative, unexpected detriment occurring in addition to the desired effect of the policy (e.g., while irrigation schemes provide people with water for agriculture, they can increase waterborne diseases that have devastating health effects, such as schistosomiasis).
PROBABLE – Perverse result: A perverse effect contrary to what was originally intended, when an intended solution makes a problem worse (e.g. welfare programs that lead to increasing populations dependent on government). This is sometimes referred to as ‘backfire’.
As if we understand the climate well enough to “engineer” changes. Oh, the greens think they already do understand the climate, and this site has been going on at great detail why that makes “Fallen Angels” seem like a documentary.
Only the gods of government are allowed to pollute and call it good. Witness the EPA spill and other such disasters that the mere citizenry would be in jail for. The government can pollute whatever they want, we all know that.
The US Senate is considering funding for albedo modification geoengineering experiments – People in developing countries are using fire wood, cow-dung cake, agriculture wastes as fuel for daily cooking and they also burn agricultural waste to clear their farmland after harvest thereby pumping particles or aerosols into the stratosphere, to reflect sunlight back into space aiding albedo modification. U.N. should fund this effort.
I predicted years ago that if everyone in the country would put light colored roofs on their houses, drive white cars and use sun screens when they park, that would be enough albedo change to completely eliminate the imaginary global warming.
“Ignorance is not a good basis for making decisions, so learning more about this is extremely valuable even if we find out that it will never work.”
Irony is completely lost on these guys.
Oh great! More funding for Ken Caldeira…
Another potential HUGE GOVERNMENT JOBS PROGRAM!!!
tadchem
April 22, 2016 at 5:46 am
“PROBABLE – Perverse result: A perverse effect contrary to what was originally intended, when an intended solution makes a problem worse.
Gary Pearse
April 21, 2016 at 8:39 pm
Willis Eschenbach has shown what would happen in his “emergent phenomena” articles: clouds that form in the afternoon in the tropics will just form later and we will get the SAME amount of heating that we got before the geoprivateering experiment. Only we will now have 60s air pollution back with us on top of it.
When blowing topsoil turned the skies brown throughout much of the 1930s, we seem to have broken all heat records – definitely when we cure the climate mania disorder and correct the temperature record, we will have the mid thirties to forties still the hottest decade in the thermometric record (also true of Greenland northern Europe and across Asia – probably in the southern hemisphere, too)
Actually, someone like Paul Homewood should, with a lot of help, get us back the 1930s record by putting it back where it was and removing all adjustments that aren’t truly justified for years since (and before where they cooled the record. He noted the reversal of trends done by adjustment to Uruguay and Ecuador (IIRC) and we know the famous ones in Australia and New Zealand. A good start would be to simply plot the unadjusted land based records as a first pass. It is likely that much of the record would contain reasonably equal plus and minus temperature biases.
The way it is now, they have an algorithm that continuously adjusts previous temperatures each year (or month?). How zany is that. As Mark Steyn remarked during the Senate hearing, climate scientists are predicting with confidence the temperature in 2100 buy we still can’t predict what the temperature will have been in the 1950s!!!
Personally a civilian scientist volunteer project that spans most countries would be worth investing in.
Anthony has done lets be honest for what he has had at his disposal a phenomenal job on the stations.
If the money was there “Hello Exxon, any cheques?” another data set could (with funding) easily be constructed, using a new network of sensors and volunteers, and within a few years we could have an actual honest more complete surface data set.
it is entirely possible, heck I’d volunteer for Helsinki temps immediately many others would too and I would imagine many would actually take pride in being utterly honest. All the stations would be correctly sited and documented.
This issue is not going anywhere, it’s time we had a non slush fund source, and I don’t care if Exxon Shell BP and all openly supply the money. After all the mission is not to disprove anything, it’s to get an unbiased open to review picture of the situation given the low level of trust in existing data
A cubic kilometer of rock smashed to dust would seem the kind of volcanic load that might have an effect for a year or two. But how to get it 7 miles in to the air?
Please tell me they have not been watching movies of cuddly toys going up under weather balloons.
There is getting it into the air but more importantly if we are talking albedo, keeping it in the stratosphere and controlling it’s dose is entirely another matter.
For particles to remain suspended for long periods the size must be artificially created nano particles and then seeing as they are manufactured, make one side heavier and the other reflective which will on average have most particle reflective side facing upwards, volcanic dust is too large to remain long enough plus where do you introduce the payloads and what are your mitigation strategy if things go wrong.
So you see when you approach this from a project perspectives that involve risk management, the task would and should be abandoned for lack of hard data and knowhow.
Not that I am for the nano particles! just in case it read that way.
Worry!!
..No need to worry about the Earth’s albedo , the coming “Little Ice Age 2” will take care of that in 10 or 15 years !
Everyone accepts the next suddenish cold snap is when not if.
We have no mitigation strategy when 2 bad growing seasons in the breadbaskets of the world, mainly the US grain. There is what? a few months of global grain reserve.
Absolute chaos would reign, marshal law everywhere, mayhem.
It is something that should be planned for if not invested in, given the state of science currently, any signs this is happening will not be acted upon, and will in fact be dismissed and resisted.
How frackin dangerous is that for something that is guaranteed to happen again at some point?!
We would literally need to relocate agriculture, ALL OF IT, to the mid latitudes and tropics if we were to see a NH cooling of significance. That is the real danger, guaranteed outcome when it comes, one not disputed by anyone, and the only thing that would have even the slightest chance of effectively dealing with this involves nuke and fossil fuels, end of bloody story, imagine trying to get through even a NH LIA without nuke and fossil! Obviously there are very good reasons most Canadian’s lived near the US border
If we hit a LIA I vote for the KT to be assigned tree cutting duty in perpetuity or until things warmed up, him and Gore, Obama, Mann and Schmidt all, loggers in a frozen thundra, though to be fair Schmidt’s cloud of smug that surrounds him may create a macro GHG effect and keep him warm.
mark says ” We would literally need to relocate agriculture, ALL OF IT, to the mid latitudes and tropics if we were to see a NH cooling of significance. ”
the chinese have already secured their food supply by doing this in africa.
Dafuq are we talking about experiments? What happened to models?
Especially the swim suit models.
Why don’t they just spray atomized BRAWNDO (The Heat Mutilator) into the air.. it’s got Electrolytes, it’s what the planet craves
Great a government project. What could possibly go wrong?
Solar radiation management governance
https://royalsociety.org/topics-policy/projects/solar-radiation-governance/
Cambridge
http://www.srms-cambridge.eng.cam.ac.uk/
David Kieth has been talking about this for years
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/cheap-controversial-solution-climate-change/
Now if they are talking openly of it that means there have been discussions long before that and experiments carried out at the very least, going public is when you want to sell it to the public!
Why don’t all the AGWCC proponents test their theory in a much more easily measured approach: they could all shave their heads, men, women, TGs, every one of them, and then stand outside to see if the reflective albedo of their shiny noggins will reduce the global average temperature by some miniscule fraction of a degree? It wouldn’t cost very much, just the amount for a new Gillette razor blade.
What, those pin heads?
Would not add up to even as much as if my cats bleach their black hair to blonde to look like WWF wrestlers.
If I remember correctly the UN has access to 800 refueling planes left over from the cold war, that were used for refueling nuke bombers and air fleets. They can be re-purposed for SRM.
The patents exist, an extensive list of them.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they have been at it since the 90s experimenting with this.
Such a thing would surely create cooling which obviously creates the potential for weather to move heat around. So an intensive SRM project and any expected outcome would be nothing but whims of fancy.
I would think it is not best to randomly throw in energy imbalances willy nilly into the weather systems and just hope the outcome is not a bad one.
I doubt there was 800 refueling planes world wide, even at the height of the cold war.
Those planes are all owned by the govts that bought them, the UN has no access to them.
Sheesh, try a little fact checking.
Typo marko lol, 80, in my haste I hit 0 twice.
AS pointed out by Alan, there are a huge number of KC 135s and those are most associated with SRM activities, though some claim they are killing us all intentionally 😀
The US Military has the large majority of the KCs though rather than the UN nations in general.
Even I didnt think that many were 135s produced.
They are pretty easily re-purposed for aerosol spraying.
Remember Operation Popeye? The weather war in Vietnam, pretty sure it involved spraying stuff in the atmosphere, I haven’t looked at it closely, that was the 60s maaaannnn 🙂
Alan, that’s the number produced, not the number still in service.
Is this really news in 2016?
“CIA outsources its research center on climate engineering JULY 25, 2013
The National Academy of Sciences of the United States will take 21 months a study program on ” Climate Engineering: technology assessment and discussion of impacts ” [ 1 ]. The information would be passed unnoticed if the bimonthly Mother Jones did revealed funding: CIA [ 2 ].”
http://www.voltairenet.dotorg/article179597.html
A list of patents relating to weather geoengineering.
Please dont associate my post with any doomsday theory, I am not advocating anything like that, it’s for the sake of curiosity about what geoengineering methods may be possible, it includes well knows tech such as for crop spraying, I guess someone really wanted to fill out the list, most people probably never read it when they cite it, the usual mindless nonsense.
I find some interesting in that the dates are like 1920s. Almost 100 years since we’ve been looking at this kind of thing
1338343 – April 27, 1920 – Process And Apparatus For The Production of Intense Artificial Clouds, Fogs, or Mists
http://www.aircrap.org/evidence/patents-directly-related-to-geoengineering/
Interesting; however,. the 4,000 members of the class of Swedish citizens who filed litigation in 2014 state that the components in spraying have been determined by analysis to be consistent with the Weisbach patent, including 10 micron aluminum oxide particles. Given the current acceptance of government disinfo, conflating this spraying with the numerous patents for agricultural applications may be effective disinfo for those unfamiliar with the analyses of precipitates.
April 1, 2014, charges were filed against the Swedish government and three of its agencies to the nation’s Chanceller of Justice for widespread and systematic violations of the much heralded “public principle
(“offentlighetsprincipen” similar to FOI). The violations occurred when the government failed to respond to over 4,000 citizen requests for information related to the ubiquitous spraying of aerosols over the country from aircraft
(a ka “chemtrailing”) that has been going on for several years.
https://chemtrailsplanet.files.wordpressdotcom/2014/04/citizens-file-60-million-suit-against-government-failure-to-respond-to-chemtrails-questions.pdf
NASA Goddard Space Flight heliophysicst Douglas E. Rowland provides an update from 1920. He states that 3 types of chemtrails are currently used in this Dec. 2015 video, the first time since 1979, according to his statement. His contact info is included in the video. Rowland uses the term “chemtrail” in this conversation; the caller doesn’t mention chemtrails.
NASA Scientist Says There Are Different Types of Chemtrails
https://www.youtubedotcom/watch?v=r2AD36sNZ70
This subject always leads to very murky waters lol, the more you dig the more depressing it gets.
“The former U.S. Secretary of Defense, Robert S. McNamara, was aware that there might be objections raised by the international scientific community but said in a memo to the president that such objections had not in the past been a basis for prevention of military activities considered to be in the interests of U.S. national security.
The chemical weather modification program was conducted from Thailand over Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam and allegedly sponsored by Secretary of State Henry Kissinger and CIA without the authorization of then Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird who had categorically denied to Congress that a program for modification of the weather for use as a tactical weapon even existed.[3]”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Popeye
FYI I never cite a wiki as a source that proves anything, absolutely not! Just for info
2010 University of Calgary Geoengineering Cost Analysis Using Jets October 30, 2010 Aurora Flight Sciences Final Report. For Dr. David Keith.
http://www.agriculturedefensecoalition.org/sites/default/files/file/pdfs/jet_trails/25_1_2010_University_of_Calgary_Geoengineering_Cost_Analysis_Using_Jets_October_30_2010_Aurora_Flight_Sciences_Final_Report_Keith.pdf
2009 Geoengineering the Climate-Science, Governance and Uncertainty September 2009 Royal Society Report
http://www.agriculturedefensecoalition.org/sites/default/files/file/geo_scheme_16/16_2009_Geoengineering_the_Climate_Science__Governance_and_Uncertainty_September_2009_Royal_Society_Report.pdf
F**king insane.
This Albedo Modification Geoengineering Proposal is a proposal like the one to pay men to dig holes and then pay other men to fill them in, and makes as much sense, possibly less sense.
I hate to give the Alarmists ideas, especially concerning this idea, but if they want to block sunlight, a better way, especially as a test, would be to put a sunshade in orbit to block out a portion of the sunlight. Don’t mess with the Earth’s atmosphere.
That would give NASA something useful to do, and the experiment could be controlled much better that way.
There is no need to mess with the Earth’s atmosphere because there is no evidence that there is anything wrong with the Earth’s atmosphere, that needs to be fixed.
Better idea – how about we call Earth the “control” planet, and tell NASA to do their experiment on Mars, instead.
So the Government is going to declare war on Global Warming. What could possibly go wrong?
Let’s see: War on Drugs, War on Poverty…et. al. invariably resulting in more of the things we wage war against plus the inherent bonus that arises from the law of unintended consequences which invariably result in higher fees and taxes and the reduction of individual liberties.
Brilliant!
No money would be spent on actual geoengineering. The bill doesn’t call for performing albedo modification. It says the DOE should review the findings of the National Academy of Sciences and look into the potential impacts of albedo modification. Many other nations are studying this as well and the DOE is directed with determining what effects it may have. But I’m sure you didn’t bother to read the actual bill text.
pd2413
So, obviously you would support a clause REQUIRING that same bill support the DOE and Federal Farm Agencies provide multi-year multi-billion dollar subsidies (er, studies) to show the proven trillions of dollars of advantages that greater CO2, greater fossil fuel use, and a generally warmer climate is providing the world’s poor, the world’s middle class and the world’s economies?
According to my former senator Kay Bailey Hutchinson, they’ve been geoengineering a long time. Bless her heart that she at least told me the truth.
[Deleted. This site does not entertain Chemtrails discussions. -mod]