From the Department of Retarded Economics and the Pacific Gas and Electric company comes this unbelievable offer that asks if I want to pay more for electricity to be part of the “in” green sustainability crowd. No, really. I thought this was an early April Fools joke, but instead, it’s an actual solicitation to fools.
Excerpts:
Here’s the cost:
I’m currently paying about 14 cents per kWh, so with this new plan to help me be sustainable and part of the cool kids crowd, I can pay up to 17.1 cents per kilowatt hour, so that I can ease my conscience that the electricity I use is from “clean California sunshine”. Good luck sorting out those clean from dirty electrons as they flow through the grid to my office.
I’m just speechless. There’s a term used in science: “Not even wrong” its not only that, but weapons grade stupidity. No wonder so many businesses are fleeing the state with this sort of madness afoot.
Full disclosure, I already have solar on my home. It’s my third solar project, and not a one of them had anything to do with sustainability, but trying to keep escalating power costs under control.
UPDATE: here is the full letter
My impression had always been that people move to California for the climate.
Are people moving out now because of the Green climate?
Toyota USA did.
(Source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/dalebuss/2014/04/27/it-makes-sense-for-toyota-to-leave-california-for-texas/#68b2465b128c )
Hi Janice, I’m back. Not only Toyoda but hundreds of other companies are leaving.
I have said this on many occasions to those promoting green energy that they should only be supplied with electricity from windmills and solar panels and they would very soon start to beg for what the rural poor of India call real electricity.
James Bull
Hi, Stan,
I think you missed my shout out (and boy, did I SHOUT, heh) to you below, so here’s the link:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/03/14/ridiculous-offer-from-pge-asks-if-i-want-to-pay-more-for-electricity-to-demonstrate-my-commitment-to-sustainability/comment-page-1/#comment-2166316
Good to see you back — and thanks for the “Hi!”
Janice
Given Toyota’s commitments on reducing CO2 usage, I doubt very much this initiative had anything to do with their decision to move to Texas: http://www.autonews.com/article/20151014/OEM05/151019954/toyota-outlines-ambitious-plan-to-slash-co2
Chris: Toyota moved because it wanted to stay in business. Period. CA has a “green,” as in tax and energy policy business-unfriendly, climate. Whether Toyota choose to build powerful, worth buying, Forerunners or Holy Car Hybrids or Save the Planet Peddle Cars, they had to move due to CA’s “green”/socialist policies.
And who in the WORLD would think that this 2016 PG&E flim-flam “initiative” could POSSIBLY have motivated Toyota to leave two years ago?
This was written in the context of GWBush’s tax cuts.
But I think it applies.
if you want a paycheck, you need to work for someone that can afford to pay you. You need to be capable of doing what they pay you for.
If your paycheck comes from the Government, then you should be doing actual “work” for them, work that involves more than casting a vote.
PS Those of you who are paid more than “minimum wage”, when it’s been raised, did you get a raise?
I never have. The value of what you and I do has been cheapened every time.
Janice said: “Chris: Toyota moved because it wanted to stay in business. Period.”
Actually, you said that Toyota moved out because of the green climate. I posted a link that said that Toyota is committed to reducing the carbon footprint of their vehicles and factories to zero, which doesn’t exactly agree with your green climate point. Do you have supporting links for your green climate statement? I also note that Texas is by far the leader in wind farm development in the US.
I searched for articles on why Toyota made the move. The #1 reason – cost of housing for employees, in Plano it’s about 1/3 the cost of Torrance. Totally understandable as a reason for moving. http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/blog/2015/12/heres-the-main-reason-toyota-is-moving-from.html
I am committed to the concept of sustainability of my Electricity and Natural gas supplied by PG&E; and to that end, I would urge the Officers and board of PG&E to cease and desist from wasting money or other valuable resources, on pie in the sky scams; excuse me, that’s schemes, for obtaining electricity from sources, which are not proven net suppliers of energy, rather than net consumers, and thereby wasters of already proven reliable energy supplies, like stored chemical energy reserves.
G
I would still like to see class action lawsuits against the boards of any and all public companies that waste a single dime on any activity that involves “sustainability” or CO2 based on the fact that they are neglecting their fiduciary responsibility to the share holders.
Matthew, the problem is that many states mandate the stupidity. It’s hard to blame utilities for wanting to pass on their costs to the gullible fools who voted for this crap. I work in utility regulation (helping companies deal with it, not enforcing it), and it’s almost everywhere. here is a map of states that have imposed “Net Metering” – demanding that utilities purchase some “green energy” and punishing those financially that don’t meet their pointless and arbitrary requirements.
And so is Carl’s Jr.
Indeed.
(Source: Investors Business Daily Editorial, March 11, 2016, http://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/californias-carls-jr-says-so-long-golden-state/ )
“We’re 44th! We’re 44th! Yay!”
Sure. Socialism works. All depends on what your goal is.
Many wrong assumptions seem to be made in the economic modelling of soci alists. But as has been posted on WUWT recently, “soci alists wouldn’t be soci alists if they understood economics…”
Apologies for going sort of off topic but the comparison of this to a recent event in Australia are solid.
Despite some people’s attempt to discredit the notion of the Laffer Curve, the en masse relocation of businesses in the USA (where state taxes and costs as well as incentives can vary so much) is pretty much as solid a confirmation of its existence as anything!
For those unfamiliar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve
In Australia in 2012 we had a Labor Government implement a Mineral Resource Rent Tax. It was sold to the electorate because there would be handouts all round – of course. That’s great when it’s OPM – Other People’s Money. And the misinformation that was used to justify it? Talk about a disconnect from reality…
The final tax was implemented in a completely broken form because they had to backtrack against a PR onslaught from the resources sector and then the Gov had their pants pulled down by a bunch of much smarter resource company negotiators who are used to operating in the real world… But what made me laugh hardest was one of the major assumptions in forecasting the huge revenue this tax was going to bring, that international investors – and against many other opportunities with far lower risk of almost every kind – would accept basically bank interest rates of return. As if that wouldn’t affect investment decisions! They thought that investors would just keep investing. ie. ignoring the Laffer curve.
Investment stopped dead.
The tax was thrown out by the next conservative Government in 2014 after raising hardly any net revenue (after exhorbitant advertising costs and administration costs) and the resources sector is still getting over the reputational damage caused
Further evidence for the concept of the Laffer Curve are the relative sizes of ‘black economies’ in countries with higher personal and corporate tax rates. eg. Greece.
And it’s not just ‘tax costs’ that go into consideration. ALL costs of doing business are included – something simple people try to ignore.
If high renewable energy participation costs are mandated onto the electorate, there’s no lack to the ingenuity of those who rightly seek to avoid the forced costs. I haven’t given it much thought yet so I don’t know how, but it’ll happen!
@Janice;
So I couldn’t help myself, I had to see where NJ was.
Well, the one state CA companies are NOT moving to is NJ, ranked 46th, just beating out Connecticut, Michigan, Vermont and New York (in that order). >:-((
D. J. Hawkins: Congratulations!
“California has lost roughly 9,000 companies over the last decade, with most of them moving to Texas, Florida, and Tennessee. …”
Let’s look at per capita income: CA – $67,458 (3rd), TX – $49,392 (25th) TN – $41,693 (45th). So those states can offer lower wages, which will persuade some companies to move. Not surprising at all. Of course, if TN was such an amazing job magnet, their wages would rise, and they would not rank 45th out of 50 states in that category.
Spot on ZenReverend, I owned a rental property in Mackay, the day the Mineral Resource Rent Tax was announced by our Socialist Left friend the real estate market stopped dead. Dropped $60,000 virtually overnight. Socialist economics has had great success in the past just look at Stalins 5 year and 10 year plans.
Looking at the per capita income doesn’t tell the whole story. California takes a far higher fraction of an individual’s income with their income tax. Cost of living in Tennessee is lower than CA
BTW, I have moved to Texas myself, along with my employer.
Don’t leave out the cost of living.
(A few years ago I remember a story about a mobile home that sold for close to or more than a million dollars. “Location”, I suppose. I think it was in the LA area. I wonder whose bathtub it overlooked?8-)
Dan/Gunga Din – I fully agree that cost of living is a factor in moves. CA has expensive housing, especially if you want to be reasonably close to where the jobs are, such as Orange County. So I agree with the point that many companies move due to CA’s higher cost of living. But the comments here are assigning a high % of the reason for companies moving to CA’s green policies, and I just don’t see the evidence to support that.
I got one of these “offers” too and almost spit coffee on my computer screen. Since I have solar already on my home too it was even a bit more ridiculous since they doubled the monthly fee to be connected to their grid. I like you put the panels up to control the meteoric rise in pg&e electric rates.
/face palm
Joe!
This should qualify for a charitable donation (religious purposes organization) income tax deduction. Since there is no charitable donation to organization for stupid ideas deduction…
Yeah. Increasing my cost of doing business so I can’t make payroll so I can tell Joe and Maria they no longer have a job sounds GREAT.
Now watch it there young lady. You are just getting too creative for your own good.
You should be happy to just be able to do what they tell you to do; millions of people are you know !
G
Aw, George (smile). How’s it goin’? Hope you found some really good cauliflower at the farmers’ market last weekend. And I hope you gave it to ’em with both George E. Smith science reality barrels.
Organic Schlepper: Ooo, but my Cow Pie Special Tomatoes are better for you.
George Smith: No they aren’t. They have the same bio-chemical make-up as fertilized compliments of Eli Lilly Red Beauties.
OS: Oooo, but my tomatoes taste better.
GS: Yup, they do —
OS: Ah — ha!
GS: — because they were picked this morning. And that is all. And what are all these little black spots…. WHICH ARE MOVING!!! on them???!
OS: OoooOOOOOOOooooo. That is so you won’t get sick from pesticides.
GS: And just how could I have gotten sick from pesticides by eating Red Beauties?
OS: Well, ……………. hm. ……… Hm…………….. I don’t know. BUT! I DO KNOW THIS ! That pesticides are bad for the planet! So you are saving the planet by buying my tomatoes that cost 3 times as much!
GS: I am not BUYING your P. T. Barnum tomatoes. Pesticides hurt NOTHING and NO ONE.
OS: Oooooh, yes they do!
GS: Oooooh, no they don’t.
OS: Look –> at –> this! (triumphantly turns up jeans cuff and displays a burn scar)
GS: Tried to weld that A-arm holding it between your feet, huh?
OS: How did you know?
GS: (puts arm around OS’s shoulder, and speaks in a confidential, friendly, tone) Come on, now. Farmer Bob. Get real, man. Just give up this racket and come back. Leave the dark side. Life’s too short to make a buck off of another person’s ignorance.
OS: (looks down… kicks a dirt clod… whispers…) Can’t. I just signed up for a 10-year state program. If I don’t plant “organic,” they can charge me for all the free trees they planted by the creek…. that mostly died…. but, I’ll still have to pay for ’em.
GS: Here (looks around to be sure no one sees him). Just take this. No, I will not eat that black spot special. You can buy me lunch sometime.
OS: Thank you, George. If it weren’t for guys like you, I don’t know where the country would be, now.
GS: It would not be here, Bob. It just would not be here. Not the America of George Washington, John Adams, and Abraham Lincoln, anyway…
GEORGE E. SMITH, science realist, extraordinaire, you deserve applause. You have been a loyal supporter of WUWT, sharing your insights and information year after year, with gusto, since, IIRC, 2007 — ultimately, in the cause of freedom! Thank you!
And, here’s to the next 10!
Your WUWT pal,
Janice
Dang Janice,
Maybe I can retire after all, and you can just ghost write my stuff for me !
G
Janice – thanks for that little tirade – on my birthday, no less! Having grown up in a family of farmers, I went into aerospace engineering, where I got to hear about the wonders of organic food all day. (Worse yet, I moved from the mid-West to California, where such drivel is commonplace.) Your understanding of food is so spot on. I can’t believe that a scam like organic farming succeeds so well, and I had thought it almost universally accepted – except by farmers on both sides of the organic debate, 97% of whom know better. (OK that statistic was pulled from somewhere else.) Farmers Markets may be fresher, and therefore better tasting. The little bug-eaten produce in the organic section is not better for you. If the fruit isn’t healthy, why should it impart health?
Kalifornia K.: HAPPY BIRTHDAY! My pleasure. I grew up in a farming community (Skagit Valley, WA) and also read a lot… and think… 🙂 … well, sometimes, I think, at other times, I just GO FOR IT!!!! LOLOLO).
George: Thanks! 🙂 And, no, you just keep on a writin’ — you don’t need any help from me.
“weapons grade stupidity” PRICELESS!
I have the perfect response for you to send them Anthony.
Tell them, that you already have a source of energy that has been keeping you going up till now. If that source is NOT sustainable, then market forces will surely drive the price up, so then you WOULD be paying more.
If PG&E are wishing to offer you energy that already IS more expensive, then they are telling you that market forces, are telling them that their proposed new supplier is already not sustainable.
G
What’s your problem? They make you an offer. They tell you about the extra cost. Take it or don’t take it.
..OMG, that’s funny.. Unfortunately for you, there is no cure for stupidity…..
So you have never got an offer for solar energy before? And if you get one, you respond with:
“I’m just speechless. There’s a term used in science: “Not even wrong” its not only that, but weapons grade stupidity. No wonder so many businesses are fleeing the state with this sort of madness afoot.”
Silly, I think. Btw, I am on 100% water power generated electricity, only 2% above the average in the country where I reside. Nothing wrong with it, works fine.
LOL, So your wires know which electrons are from ” 100% water power generated electricity ” and which ones are not ?? Does your power grid have a ” Dirty Electron Defense Shield ” ?? ROTFLMAO…..
Of course not, I pay a bit extra to make sure that the amount of (electrical) energy I use is matched with the amount of hydro power in the country. What are you on about on electrons? It is you who is stupid if you think that I do not know how the system works here.
..LOL, You don’t know what part an Electron plays in giving you electricity ? Please stop, the stupidity, it hurts !!
After I said:
“I pay a bit extra to make sure that the amount of (electrical) energy I use is matched with the amount of hydro power in the country”
You still put up bullshit about knowing which electron comes from where. Pathetic really.
…P.S. Wagen , hydro-electric is not considered a ” sustainable ” energy form to the liberal greenies. On top of that, most countries do not have access to hydro-electric power, and NO COUNTRY has 100% hydro-electric power ! Do you believe in Unicorns and Elves too ?
..Wagen, paying ” a bit extra ” gives you 100% water power generated electricity ” ROTFLMAO !!
Wagen,
The extra amount you pay does not ensure that the energy you use is “matched with the amount of hydro power” in the Country.
There are relatively very people doing what you are doing. As a group, all you are doing is paying a little more … for no real reason except to be able to say things like “… matched with the amount of hydro power in the Country.”
What actually happened is that your provider got stuck with a hydro contract that was, at the time, a good deal. But with the cheaper market energy, the hydro contract is more expensive than current market rates. So, your provider asked you [read as suckered you into] to pay more, relative to the current market rates, because hydro power is gooder….
Have a nice day..
There are several European countries that make that renewable claim in various flavors.
None are true.
When you check the actual energy production sheets, a significant amount of the energy is transmitted inter-country via the electrical grid.
Nor is there sufficient ‘renewable’ or hydro electric power available to supply all of the customers promised the green energy. 15% and greater amounts of the electricity come from those dirty fossil fuel generation plants.
But as you’ve proved time and again; believe what you want wagen.
What does “matched with the amount of hydro power in the country” actually mean? Does it mean that they try to make the total hydro power created equal the total energy used by the people who signed up for the matching plan? If so, what do they do if it doesn’t match?
It never has occurred to you, that we are laughing at you, not with you.
Sure.
Has it occurred to you that I do not care about you?
It has occurred to me that confronting somebody with overwhelming stupidity is a declaration that reason can not prevail.
Whereas the only possible response that can prevail is overwhelming force, ‘weapons grade stupidity’ is properly named for it is, indeed, and act of war.
To declare war on reason itself is to proclaim that you are a monstrosity and a threat to human life.
You leave no doubt.
You are evil.
Hey, c’mon people. This is better than using government tax dollars to fund solar, is it not? At least PG&E is giving people a choice rather than a blanket tax or surcharge. This gives the CAGW crowd an opportunity to clear their conscience without forcing participation from those who don’t share their beliefs. For me the offer is laughable, but I respect that there are those who may wish to participate, and if they choose to do so we should be supportive, not making jokes about it.
I’m guessing not Joe,
They are not giving a choice. They already made the decision and the tiny amount that they get from suckers like Wagen doesn’t make a measurable difference in their budget or overall charges to the rest of the costumers.
Wages, has it ever occurred to you to wonder why you pay extra for renewable energy when the proponents keep telling you the source is “free”
Well Wagen, you must be enjoying the purest of all energy sources, the one that powers the Sun and stars; ie. Gravitation.
And every time you hit the light switch you are sending out little Einstein Waves to announce it to the entire universe.
Way to go Mate !
G
…Sorry George, but I don’t think Wagen is mature enough yet to get sarcasm !
http://www.lamebook.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/life-is-though.jpg
..The sad part is is, he probably graduated !
I witnessed a guy once proclaim “I’m a lot more stupid than you think I am!” and look around like he won the argument
fossilsage
He did. I’m sure everyone agreed with him.
Brilliant.
Wagen — Something is missing from your personality. — Eugene WR Gallun
I would do business with someone like that but they would never ever be my employee
Consider the stupidity to take the offer (pay more to get “green” electricity), and the implications that they think a significant number of people will take it.
Apparently the concept of making a choice because you think it is right is not within some peoples perception . Money is not the only consideration in making choices.
I would certainly incurage all my business competitors to join this project. I wouldn’t join it myself, mind you. And while I’m sure I would lose a small percentage of customers who will choose a product because it has ‘Made with 100% renewable energy’ on the label, I’d gain as many or more who would choose a product because it’s a few percent cheaper.
And I don’t have to do anything to keep those customers but keep producing my product for less. To keep the customers who chase trendy catchphrases like ‘renewable’, ‘sustainable’, or ‘organic’ you have to constantly jump to whatever trend in new and hip, or you’ll loose those customers just as fast as you got them.
Wonder if the Chinook kid, DiCaprio and the rest of the ultra rich Hollywood green misfits will take up the offer?
Not likely. They don’t want to pay more for energy; they want YOU to pay more. It’s the same with flying. They don’t want to stop flying their private planes; they want YOU to stop flying on planes.
Palo Alto (CA) Utilities has a similar program for natural gas. The residential customer can buy carbon offsets for the natural gas they use, and pay just a little bit more (claimed average is $5/month extra). Lovely.
PA also has a sustainability officer and two paid staff; no doubt a great benefit to the community.
Pat,
Yep, the more people that sign up for the extra costs, the bigger the green staff budget line items gets.
No real cost savings to the rest of the customers.
We have a full time climate coordinator so we can make smart climate decisions.
…..Hmmmm, I wonder how many liberal ” Greenies ” will volunteer to pay the extra money ?? If not, why not ?? What excuse could they possibly use ?? I think I see a new, deadly weapon to prove their hypocrisy !
They aren’t liberals. They’re socialists
Every time I say that I get SNIPPED ! LOL
They are leftists. I am a “Liberal” in the sense that the founding fathers were considered liberals.
Oh, dear Stanley Stendera, I’m so glad. So very glad to see you! I have not seen you here for over a YEAR and I was afraid that …. well, that the WORST had happened. (We really need to have a “Notice to WUWT” in each of our estate planning documents! — okay, Alex, I know, I know, but it would, for you, be a cause to rejoice! 🙂 … no more accidentally reading that sickening J.M.’s comments). So, how is Libby? How is Schmidt? How are the birds on the rail? HOW ARE YOU?
I will always, for the rest of my life, be grateful for (among many kind and generous remarks of yours) this:
“I don’t care if you are fat and ugly…”
#(:))
Oh, boy, I sure hope you see this. If you don’t, well, I tried…
Your old WUWT friend,
Janice
Bad as that is, it still isn’t as bad as having “green energy” costs built in to your electricity prices, regardless of how you feel about it, such as through RGGI, the Regional Greenhouse Gas Innitiative, which is a regional cap and trade system. I do have to wonder how many will voluntarily pay more for electricity, just so they can feel all smug and honarable.
..So, they get to pay twice ? LOL
UK energy companies have had ‘green’ tariffs for ages. To be fair one, EDF I think, offers a nuke tariff.
Not to worry, Bloke. Soon you’ll have the privilege of paying extra for wood chips to be hauled in from North America so they can be burned to reduce CO2 and produce good ol’ green sustainable energy. Well, until North America is deforested, then Plan B kicks in… What? There is no Plan B?
You folks are so d-o-o-o-o-o-m-e-d.
We have that system here in Australia Anthony. It’s called green power and you can opt to take it over normal power if you feel you need to save the planet.
Because of our solar subsidies and feed in tariffs (all forced on the power companies by government) we are paying up to 32c/kwh.
We have a huge uptake of solar panels as they all believe they are saving the planet plus they get a rebate for every kwh they feed back into the grid.
Of course the power companies don’t need the additional solar power because solar only works during the day from 9 – 3 when we are running on our baseload power driven by a series of coal fired power stations. At peak times 5am – 9am and 5pm – 9pm that add hydro or gas which can be brought in on demand so the solar is totally useless.
Here’s a link to their site
http://www.energyaustralia.com.au/residential/electricity-and-gas/green-energy
Uptake is down to about 0.5% of households as of January this year
http://joannenova.com.au/2016/01/australians-dont-want-to-pay-more-for-green-power-what-was-a-pitiful-1-of-the-grid-shrank-by-half/
I see others beat me to it – was going to cover this. Amazing how the Greens (8.65% of the “first preference” vote in the last Australian general election) can’t match that in the place where it actually counts, i.e. putting their own money into what they believe. I guess it is great, but only if it is other peoples’ money…
Analitik commented: “…Uptake is down to about 0.5% of households as of January this year”
They actually found that many people willing to tithe to their energy provider who is charging them for the honor of being on their list of donors!
After I retired I installed a 5 kW system, the enticement feed in rate set by the government was 67 cents per kW for 15 years, because the power companies had to meet renewable targets my power company offered an extra 13 cents for 3 years. In an average year I only pay for electricity in winter and a small amount in spring. An added bonus is that the capital cost of the system came off my assets with a resultant increase in the pension. Saving the planet had nothing to do with my decision and it is the best rort I have got onto. I feel just like a Greenie.
This is the way it should work. You want green energy, you should pay more (rather than making the rest of us pay more just because of your guilt).
I think most of these pay-more-green-energy plans are actually oversubscribed as there are many businesses keen for the publicity.
“pay-more-green-energy plans are actually oversubscribed”
If only. If that were true, the rest of us would see rates going down, not up, due to the expansion of green power.
Jim Bakker running that program?
+100
‘You want green energy, you should pay more’
They aren’t getting green energy. They are getting electricity off the grid like everyone else. And paying more for it. I think that qualifies as stupid, paying more for the same thing.
I remember a California initiative to encourage competing power companies to form in California which was stopped largely by an infusion from PG&E into the Sierra Club for purposes of persuading them to campaign against it for “environmental” reasons. Somehow ENRON was able to emerge regardless and we all know how that turned out. It brought us long power outages and the Gobernator, who, like Gray Davis, must have offended someone badly in order for an Hispanic woman culturally appropriating Monica Lewinsky to arise.
When Matt Gonzales ran for mayor he wanted to explore a Portugal-style tidal power solution for The San Francisco Bay. Boxes of ballots were soon thereafter found floating in the Bay. However, that scandal was soon overcome by gay marriages.
When Dick Cheney said that California activists opposed to the Bush the W administration were an “endangered species,” I wonder what sort of time-horizon he envisioned.
Excuse me, there goes a squirrel. What was I saying? More money for PG&E? Why how wonderful. Sunshine.
You left out that the stupidity was only ended (or, given this latest turn, perhaps only postponed…) when Gov. Grey (out) Davis was recalled and after PG&E was essentially bankrupted and the crashed stock price ruined retirement funds and old folks (including a friend’s retired Mom…).
Democrats destroy power systems. I don’t know why, I just observe and report.
FWIW, a Diesel generator makes electricity at a fuel cost that is roughly 1/10 gallon per kW-hr. So take the pump price and move the decimal to get cents/kW-hr. California Diesel currently about $2.30 WITH road tax, so 23 cents/kW-hr. Close to competitive. w/o road tax ought to be about 18 ¢ and using nat gas even cheaper. I’m looking into a nat gas generator once the proposed 36 cent tariff gets approved… there are attempts in the works to get $.50 approved. Expect to hear a stampede of businesses out of the State if that happens…
Thank you. I don’t have any love left for either party in California at this point. I suspect that part of it’s dysfunction is that there is just too much money in the hands of angry middle aged divorcees in a state where not being young is a crime. Whenever we have a crisis such as too much money in the hands of hysterics, there is going to be a circus. I gave up and moved to Florida where at least I can smoke.
Why would I want that “privilege” to double my costs of electricity from the cheap $0.0873/kWh we pay for coal fired power in Indiana? All pain – no gain!
These types of offers have been available for a while. I want to choose to get only nuclear power, and pay less for it.
You can choose to get coal fired power and pay even less, by voting the idiots out of government particularly at state and federal levels. Problem is there are also lots of idiots voting the other way. I am sure that plenty of greenies volunteered to pay more to save the planet. There is no cure for stupid. To paraphrase a quote, life is tough and it’s even tougher when lots of stupid folks are voting against you.
You can do a version of that in Texas. When I moved here from CA, I was given the choice of many power providers, but still a monopoly on local distribution. The providers each have their own portfolios of generators. I chose mine based on price, reliability, lowest number of complaints, and the ownership of nuke plants. You can’t specify 100% nuke, but you can choose a provider that owns nuke plants in their portfolios.
The local campus of the University of Texas is trying to build a test and teaching reactor near here, and I am supporting that. Too bad it won’t be grid tied.
I just moved across town here in Houston and was offered a chance by my local power provider to buy carbon credits to offset my C02 footprint. I laughed so hard I could hear their smile over the phone.
I would guess that the “pay a little more” is an attempt to get people through the door and the cost will go up after they’ve signed on and/or locked into it. Was it in Germany they said that going for green energy would cost no more than an ice cream? Turned out to be very expensive ice cream. I don’t trust ANYTHING to do with green or so-called ‘renewables’ (a better name being ‘regretables’).
I wonder what replies they are getting. 🙂
Regrettables L
At least it’s voluntary.
Expect that to change when not enough suckers sign up.
The West Coast (and maybe other) electric utilities are simply doing what the ‘all knowing’ regulators demand; ie promote and ‘encourage’ the latest fad- “green” energy. Actually it is better to voluntarily ask than to simply increase the rates for everyone arbitrarily [of course they do they too – with PUC approval]
“Good luck sorting out those clean from dirty electrons as they flow through the grid to my office.”
That’s what your smart meter is for, filtering out the dirty electrons to they don’t get into your home. From time to time, the meter reader cleans out the filter by shaking the dirty electrons into a container that is sent back to the nearest coal or nuclear or natural gas power plant.
(Some \sarc here, but only just a tiny little bit)
..Believe it or not Neil, some liberals/socialists in Canada actually believe that is what they are for !!
They figure if people are buying the AGW scam why not take part in it? There’s money to be made here! With all the guilt floating around there should be lots of takers for this one. Just think….ease your conscience for only pennies on the dollar!
Vermont’s Green Mountain Power has been doing this for some time with “Cow Power”. For an extra $.04/kWh you can get electricity produced from cow waste.
That’s priceless — everywhere else you can get all the BS you want for free.
+100
Especially from Bernie
Being of sound mind and body, I hope everyone that received that drivel, said NO!!!! We’re tired of spending money on climate/energy scams!!!
PG & E stands for Pacific Gouge and Extortion.
You know, I’m actually going to defend this. Asking people to pay extra for supporting a political belief is how it’s supposed to work.
Yes it’s all pipeline, The energy you get is from the nearest source. You are simply paying more to buy more solar panels for that power company.
However, that’s the point. You are paying them to build more solar panels. Optionally. Without force or coercion. It’s not an optimum solution because they are idiots, but at least it’s honest folly.
…Ben, that would be great IF they did not force ” non supporters ” to pay also ! This EXTRA stupidity is just icing on their profits !
As of 2012, PG & E ratepayers were forced to pay for:
(Source: http://www.pge.com/en/about/environment/pge/cleanenergy/index.page )
Hm. I just wonder where they get the funds to buy all that wind and solar … .
BOTH wind and solar (solar never pays back its cost if you do a future value on the funds invested; before it can, it needs to be replaced/heavily maintained) are MONEY PITS. (Note: It is not stupid for people who choose to invest their OWN money in solar simply because they can feel more energy independent — I wouldn’t spend my money on it, but it is THEIR money … I wouldn’t spend money on lots of stuff other people choose to buy, to each their own; it is just using OPM which is wrong). They are permanently negative ROI investments, but for, rate surcharges and or tax subsidies.
Who is making $$? Not so much PG&E, they are just mandated by the gov’t. to carry out the junk science polices. Who makes money = Big Wind and Big Solar… .
Take heart! It will not last. Time is moving on… and wind and solar are rapidly losing favor in the market. Before long (my guess? by 2025 at the LATEST), they will be GONE. Yay!
GO, NUCLEAR POWER!
#(:))
…As always, thank you Janice, for your tireless research to defend WUWT supporters from all those liberal Snuggies wearing persons !!
🙂
I made no comment on the rest of their policies, which have exactly those problems, and I agree with you 100%, Ms. Janice.
However, I will state that optional programs are perfectly honest and open, and don’t deserve this level of outright mockery. If you wish to purchase it, go right ahead. It’s your money. In my younger and more starry-eyed days I did shell out a bit extra for Green Mountain power. I stopped when I became a bit older and wiser, about the time when financial reality set in and I switched out Starbucks for Folgers.
benofhouston commented: “…However, I will state that optional programs are perfectly honest and open, and don’t deserve this level of outright mockery….”
Please explain what extra you receive that you are paying for under this program. What is the value add to yourself or the environment? Honest about what? I know, rhetorical questions.
A feel-good notion that you are helping the planet. The fact remains that while the people on this board are unanimous in our contempt for solar power, others do not agree. Note: I’m accepting in good faith that they have bought into what they are selling and think they are actually helping.
With that in mind. You get a warm fuzzy feeling in exchange for a small amount of cash. We’ve all spent more for less.
benofhouston commented: “…The fact remains that while the people on this board are unanimous in our contempt for solar power,….”
Not true. I think it’s great for people that fit the criteria or have money to waste. Just don’t make me pay for their decision to do so.
It’s called a scam when it’s not backed by legislation.
Ben of Houston,
Very few commenters are condemning those who like solar power, per se. They are condemning being forced to fund negative ROI investment by their power company.
Re: “feel good” notion — the reason people like Anthony invest in solar power is NOT for a bogus “feel good about saving the planet’ notion — solar panels do NOTHING to “save the planet” -<– from WHAT?? — they buy solar panels to be energy-independent. And they pay for it themselves. More power to them (given that it makes them feel good about life and their future well-being)!
Take care, down there, in the great free state of Texas!
Janice
I am not sure if this is where the weapons grade stupidity begins, or where it ends.
After all, all these green power schemes have been voted on and passed as ballot initiatives. So, “We The People” actually voted for this. I am sure WUWT could put together a hilarious/horrifying post documenting all the ballot Propositions regarding “clean energy” in CA which have been approved in the last 20 years or so.
Here in the Peoples Democratic Republic of MA, we had a ballot initiative for RGGI (Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative) which passed handily a few years back. (70% approved, can that possibly be right?) Last year, MA residents were shocked with a 40% electric rate increase. I would very helpfully offer to explain the rate increase. When asked, I would take great joy in saying “you voted for it”.
Shock
Anger
Confusion
I would then helpfully explain “You did not really believe all that rot about “Green Jobs” and “Sustainability”, did you?” And especially “Did you not see what amounts to a new tax on you electric bill coming straight at you?”
Even now, say “RGGI” to the average voter, and get an iconic Dumb Look back in return.
Weapons grade, indeed.
In a more perfect world, the extra costs would only be mandatory for those who voted for the program. Instead, the stupidity of the Low Information Voters is inflicted on all of us.
This is one reason the Founding Fathers created the United States as a Constitutional Republic, they were horrified by a pure democracy.
If it ain’t economic, it ain’t sustainable.
yes.
Children ( liberals ) like Wagen actually think there is a difference between ” Green ” electrons and ” Dirty ” electrons….and his Smart Meter can tell the difference ! D’oh !!
Seek, and knowledge will be yours.
I am sure you understand a green photon at wavelength = 440 nm well enough. (such a lovely shade)
So what is a green electron, you ask?
Well, an electron with a Compton wavelength = 440 nm has an energy of 28 eV, not altogether that energetic.
Now You Know: what a green electron is.
SCIENCE!
Because you didn’t put a ” Sarc ” after that, Wagen will now copy and paste that as PROOF that he is right !!
Based on one of his comments, I’m not sure Wagen has a real tight grip on what an electron actually is…or does for him.
As the woman said – “you can ignore reality, but you can not ignore the consequences of ignoring reality”. In this case stratospheric electricity prices. Solar power was supposed to be much cheaper because the fuel (sunlight) is free.
+100
So is coal…all you have to do is dig it up and haul it to the place you are burning it.
I have solar and was asked to join a similar scheme to which I did after they put a device on my meter that filters the green volts from the red volts ,they did say they had 37 percent confidence level that I would only consume the green volts .
…Yes, green meaning ” cash in their pockets ” !
I’m going to agree with Ben from Houston above. I see this as honest and possibly a way for the utility to let its customers know that “green” costs more money all while seeming to go along with the smart kids. It may have a huge effect in a way that greens might not anticipate.
Seconded, with compliments.
+100
All the utilities have been offering the opportunity to purchase “green” energy at an additional price for years. You can buy certified green energy (Green-E certified). The cute part is the electricity you buy can be generated anywhere. Anthony’s green electrons could be generated east of the Appalachians. The renewable energy generators market their electricity. They sell it to anyone who wants to be green: colleges, utilities, companies. The purchaser is quite unlikely to get any of the green electrons, but he will feel just so much better. How else, other than scams like this, can the green energy companies survive making electricity that costs more than the typical market price of dirty electricity.
…Wagen, above, believes you can separate ” GREEN ” electrons from ” DIRTY ” electrons …unfortunately, he has not figured out what electrons are yet !
I’ve talked about electrons in chemistry for 50 years and have been in the (green)power industry for 15. I’ve yet to see an electron, but I have great faith that they exist. 🙂
Anthony,
Whoosh!
Yeah, because free market solutions which give consumer choice to invest in alternatives is SO much dumber than gummint imposed taxation.
Wake up.
“Your business is powered by clean Californian Sunshine”…..even at night!
What sort of morons do they think people are? The green bit is the money in their pocket.
In Texas, one local utility offers greatly discounted electrical rates for people willing to use power in the wee hours, to use the otherwise useless wind power they a required to buy. At least Pacific Graft and Extortion is openly offering a price increase for fools.
This scam has been going on in Ontario, Canada for years.
https://www.bullfrogpower.com/green-energy/how-it-works/
@ clipe, March 14 5:03 pm, Now I know why Ontario Hydro ( and the whole province) is such deep KaKa, I just cannot believe why what used to be the richest most diverse part of the country have thrown it into chaos. The socialistic ( don’t be fooled by them calling themselves “liberals’ they are anything but) have destroyed the basic fundamental part of their economy
The manufactoring that used to be the main base for Ontario got priced out of the economy by just this sort of scheme. It just got way to expensive to compete. and instead of continuing with expansion of the Hydro system with more capacity they voted just about every Hydro project out.
Canada, as much as Ottawa touts that their economy is one of the best on the Planet, it far from it thanks to policies like this. Right now they might offer an option but 3-4 years from now it will become mandatory because of it’s (non existent) “success”.
Well… I have for years only purchased electrons with the “right handed spin”… You see all my motors turn in the clockwise direction (when viewed from the properly selected viewing perspective). I have been returning all “left handed spin” electrons to the power company via the neutral conductor. Maybe they have figured out how to resell them ??
I did offer to pay the power company for only the electrons I retained on premises, but they declined….
/sarc off
“Solar Electrons” = Weapons Grade Stupidity for sure…
Cheers, KevinK.
Rocky Mountain Power has done this for years. https://www.rockymountainpower.net/env/bsre/po.html
I have asked about how the power line separates “clean” energy from dirty energy, but no one has been forthcoming with an answer. I guess that means my original belief that this is just a way to get more money for the power company was correct.
“I have asked about how the power line separates “clean” energy from dirty energy, but no one has been forthcoming with an answer.”
See my post later at March 15, 2016 at 2:15 am
I think this is entirely appropriate. For those people who believe all the hype then here is a chance for them to put their money towards solving the “problem”. Far better that those who think using solar will make a difference to pay the extra bit than the those of us who don’t believe it is a problem or those who cannot afford any more.
This has been an option in many places at different times. Importantly I have never seen any suggestion that many people sign up for the programs. If so many people are so sure we are doomed that seems odd. Of course “Think globally, act locally” is only a slogan and not a call to action if in fact it costs money.
This scam has been going on for years here in Canada.
“Any location can be bullfrogpowered with green electricity and green natural gas, including home and business spaces that are owned, leased or shared.
Bullfrog Power does not inject the green electricity or green natural gas directly into your home or business.
Bullfrog’s generators put 100% green electricity or 100% green natural gas onto the respective energy system on your behalf. We ensure the energy going onto the grid or pipeline for you is from clean, green sources.
Homes and businesses that currently receive energy bills will continue to receive the bills for the cost of conventional electricity or natural gas. You will also receive a separate bill from Bullfrog for the additional cost of bullfrogpowering your home or business.
If you do not receive an energy bill (e.g., renters whose electricity costs are included in their rent), you will begin receiving a bill from Bullfrog for the greening of your energy.”
https://www.bullfrogpower.com/green-energy/how-it-works/
Amongst the usual suspects.
clipe commented: “…. Bullfrog for the greening of your energy…..”
I thought you were being sarcastic until I clicked on the link. I can see where the type of people that pay into this scam are the same ones that are still waiting for their check from the inheritance of the Nigerian diplomat that couldn’t get the money out of the country when he died.
The biggest radio station in Canada (Newstalk 1010 CFRB) advertised this sc…scheme.
http://bellmediaradioplus.ca/newsTags.php?str=Bullfrog%20Power
Mod(s). Am I in the penalty box?
[Reply: No. Sometimes moderators take breaks at the same time. If your comment has a word or link that puts it in hold, one of us needs to get back and approve it. ~mod]
Ta
And, no doubt, it will soon be: “Ta da!” 🙂
Clipe — I don’t see another post by yours, yet, so I’m assuming you hit the spam bin. I’ve wondered before if I was put out in the WUWT hall with my nose in the corner, too. Turned out it was one of those “bad” words. Or, a link too many in my comment. Hang in there. I’ll bet your comment shows up. Sometimes can take over an hour at times when mods are busy with their own lives.
I can’t imagine you being put in the “penalty box,” for your comments are always (IIRC) above-board and you are known for your fine insights. I think a “regular” like you is cut a bit of slack and would only have a “bad word” SNIPPED, not be put into m0deration hold. (not sure about “m0deration,” heh).
Well, all this was to just sort of come alongside and keep you company while you wait. I feel quite certain that all is well!
Janice
🙂
Well! Ta da! And the word was “sc@m.”
Ta Janice, next time I’ll call this sc@m a scamzuki.
Ta Janice, My first reply to you is back in the bin because I spelled sc@mzuki wrong.
lol — I’ll watch for it, Clipe. TTFN. 🙂
Hey Janice, thanks for explaining ( and the mods as well) how that can happen, appreciated ( btw how are you and your four legged partner ? I hope things are better.)
Hi, Asybot,
Thank you for asking. I hope you see this. We three (2 German Shepherds and I who are, btw, my babies… I need to start a private detective business and then they could really do their thing and be my true partners — Investigations and Surveillance (and Yelling — good at yelling, heh)) are well. Still in sort of dire straits, same living circumstances, but, we have plenty to eat! 🙂 So, things are still very hard and have not changed, but, God has a plan. To the horizon, the scenery is bleak, but…. we can only see about 2.9 miles… God can see beyond the horizon, to what He has planned! 🙂
I hope you got that TV working and that all is well with you and your family.
Thank you, so much, for your kind concern.
Take care,
Janice
P.S. If you see this, please acknowledge — thanks!
btw: the time where WUWT is headquartered is now, 8:50am, lol.
Janice, Hey thanks for the reply, everything ok sorry I am a little late. Glad to hear the “family” is well, ” okay.”
I like it and think its brilliant assuming of course they sell some of this. Lets face it PG&E will be able to meet some of its federal mandates easier, not charge customers who don’t want to pay more, and the customers that do pay more have a ready made “green tag” to hang on their product for their customers to pay them back. Good marketing!
People pay for what they value. The company is offering something that some people may think is worth paying for. As well, the company is forced to pay a premium for solar energy and this is a way of offsetting that cost . it lessens the financial burden of green subsidies on other customers
This appears to me to be he result of a sensible business analysis. People who are skeptical of solar subsidies should applaud it since it keeps money in their pockets.
TAG,
Econ isn’t your strong point, is it?
TAG,
Exactly!
In previous threads, we have often read exhortations along the lines of “Well, if you think it’s such a good idea, you pay for it!” A sentiment I share wholeheartedly.
This seems to be a perfect instance of that approach. I don’t understand why anyone would go for it, but voluntary carbon credits had their day in the sun, too.
Can’t wait to hear what the “sensible business analysis” looks like.
A sensible business analysis would bring out the fact that an offer like this would be profitable. The only cost is for advertising and administration. People give them money for the assurance that the electricity they use will come from solar installations. The electricity actually comes form the usual sources and the company gets more money by just issuing a meaningless assurance.
I read that letter and immediately smelled the aroma of snake oil. Filled with the heady effects of alcohol, devoid of any medicinal benefit.
This whole country seems to have contracted a bad case of the stupids.
@J. W. Garrett, more along the line of a case of severe idiocy ( laced with a side effect of sc@m -oligy.
The largest electricity provider in New Hampshire had a program like this for several years. They eventually dropped it, saying that few customers had signed up.
It starts with an offer; the ultimatum comes later.
Remember the “mandatory voluntary compliance” with Carter administration energy saving regulations?
Exactly.
I recall in my yoof a cartoon of characters flying, yes, flying east to west over the USA. The entire journey from east to west, up to the CA border, the states looked dark and dank with storms and rain. Then the plane approached CA. That state was bathed in sunshine and was brilliant in colour, no storms, no rain. Gotta be true aye?
Yup. Just like Oz (as in The Wizard of). B&W in Kansas… IN LIVING COLOR in Oz… where a great and powerful wizard made stuff happen!
“Good luck sorting out those clean from dirty electrons as they flow through the grid to my office.” It is a simple accounting exercise. The amount you pay for renewables has to be matched by the renewable energy produced. Luck has nothing to do with it.
Yes..it allows them to buy the more expensive power….
Geoffrey
Please tell me you do not honestly believe “…It is a simple accounting exercise. The amount you pay for renewables has to be matched by the renewable energy produced. Luck has nothing to do with it…”.
Because if you actually believe this, I may do great harm to myself as I roll on the floor, laughing out loud.
I am sorry. How do you know you are getting solar and not regular electricity?
I have no problem with ASKING for people to give more money. Perhaps the liberal socialists will take the hint and GIVE more taxes voluntarily to the IRS and stop pestering the rest of us to fund their pipe dreams.
The solar electrons look different…
What you get is grid electricity. The grid could have inputs from many different sources, coal, nuclear, oil, biomass, solar pv, solar thermal, wind, tidal, geothermal, hydro etc. If you want renewables to be a larger part of the mix, under the scheme in the article you pay more and the supplier calculates how many watts you use and makes sure that same number of watts is being supplied by the renewable inputs. They build more solar panels for example.
So what you seem to be saying is that my neighbor and I are getting the same electricity except that I will pay more and so I can feel good about myself. I’d rather feel good about myself by taking my son to a hockey game. Go Bolts!
To Tom in Florida – No, Tom, I just explained how it works, I did not give any value judgement. How you feel about yourself is up to you.
” the supplier calculates how many watts you use and makes sure that same number of watts is being supplied by the renewable inputs.”
Sheesh! How gullible do do you have to be !
My utility does this too. I just wish they would publish an “honor roll” of all those brave souls who are willing to save the planet…might be kind of embarrassing for the loud mouths who would never pay a cent more but want everyone else to do so.
You’ve hit on a powerful motivator there, Steve. What’s the point of “doing good” if your efforts are not recognized? Folks will even drive a butt-ugly Prius Smugmobile so everyone will KNOW! Maybe a utility issued “halo” sign you could put out in your front yard would do the trick.
This selling point is apparently not lost on PG&E; they offer to provide “window clings and digital collateral to demonstrate your commitment.”
As a business, you can shame your competitors with official 3rd party publicity material.
A few years ago California stiffed me and my fellow British Columbians for $755 million :
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/bc-utility-settles-energy-prices-dispute-with-california-from-2000/article13813512/
I hope we no longer sell electrical power to Californians.
@garymount, and just wait for the new “deal” regarding negotiations on the water that is in the pipeline right now. There are studies being done on many lakes in BC regarding the amount of water that we are supposed to “give” to the US. It is a renewal of the Columbia Water treaty from the 50’s that are ongoing today. There are even studies on how much water evaporates from our lakes to determine on how much water gets “lost” over the seasons, I presume to make sure we actually are giving the right amounts of water to the US, I feel a further bending over by our government. Water is going to be the new oil, I hope Canada realizes this for our future.
Not a big surprise. This has been an ” option” in Oilberta for years:
http://www.calgaryherald.com/life/renewable+power/929307/story.html
I have chosen to pay an additional fee to increase renewables in the energy mix for my city- I think it is a very worthy cause.
lol, Luke 🙂
SOMEDAY… you are going to tell us whose hand runs sockpuppet “Luke.” Oh, I know, I know, you’ll have to do an obligatory protest, now. lol Someday….
You are someone with a fun sense of humor, that is for sure. :)]
Thanks for the smile.
Careful not to overdo the “worthy” thing there, Luke. Too much of that stuff and you’ll start having to plan your electric powered activities around the weather forecasts.
May I suggest you take that money and donate to a food bank instead. Much better way to help those in your city.
Dear P G & E
Thank you for your kind offer of solar energy, but I would prefer coal energy. Please can you quote me a price for coal energy.
Yours etc.
The secular sale of indulgences.
For some reason this reminds me of one of the most embarrassing moments in political history. That being when Jeb Bush begged the audience “Please cap”. This letter is testimony to the utter stupidity of the California energy police. The pleas confesses “We screwed up and it is costing us a fortune – please help us pay the bills”. Next will be raised rates to offset the losses (which may manifest only as lower profits vs negative income).
“cap” s/b “clap”. Spell check lag.
If you’re on time of use, of peak is about 14 cents per KWhr… Peak is 44 cents per KWhr… Solar farms are the worst way to use Solar power…
Otherwise rates depend on how much you use… They increase the more you use…
Rejoice all you true believers! A Spanish solar energy company just went bankrupt and pulled 10 billion USD down the drain. Let us all go to Spain to buy up the remainings (they can probably be bought off real cheap) and then put up more unprofitable solar energy companies here in California!
Don’t they have IMF brokered solar tax in Spain?
They have solar police too, who make sure you are not stealing sunshine without paying for it
I gotta laugh at how some think some energy companies are evil and some saintly.
The “evil” ones are driving energy costs down at the moment and the “saintly ones” driving costs up.
The loonies never want to talk about the millions of Europeans who’ve been cut off from Energy, like the half million in Green Green Germany.
Yes that sounds sustainable, cut off millions from energy thus lowering the carbon emissions, by returning people to 1880 living standards.
Just in the UK media, an Army died without food in his belly and electricity in his home.
A climate change victim, there were thousands or 10s of thousands in Africa in the 2000s when Biofuel soaked up 30% of corn.
Liberia has diamonds but no one has energy, and a few families can chip in to buy a large dog to eat and the loonies want them to stay that way.
*Arny Vet, Doh
Army even! Shoot me now
When I first visited California, I was told it was Pacific Graft and Extortion.
I live in the Netherlands. There are many companies selling electricity. They all offer two possibilities: green electricity and grey electricity. Prices are a bit different.Green electricity is from solar, wind, biomass and hydro. The rest is grey.
You cannot see if your electricity is green or grey, but that need not be a problem. All companies are obliged to keep track on how much green/grey electricity they produce/buy and how much they sell. ACM (Autoriteit Consument & Markt), a government institution controlls all electricity selling companies.
If you see an, at first sight, strange offer,I think it is better to wait a short moment and think calm. Then to ask the company how they and you can be sure that the solar electricity they sell , they also buy/produce.
This all relies on the convenient fact that electricity is for all intensive purposes invisible. People often only have a vague idea where it comes from, how it’s made and many have no idea how much they use. If we could see electricity and see where it comes from, the scheme would fall apart. It would be obvious that only a tiny bit comes from renewable, not enough to make any difference and not enough to justify the cost. The business that claims to be “all renewable” would stand out as no more renewable than your house. However, since we can’t make electricity visible, the lies will continue.
Latest offer.
Roll up Roll Up!
We now have a Moon Shine Panel.
Do not be shy have a Moon shine panel and get full power every 28 days.
Or was I drinking the stuff when I had the idea?
I dunno, I could build a moonshine panel, pour the moonshine in one end, burn it, and extract the energy, or of course you could make an alcohol fuel cell using the moonshine as fuel.
HI Anthony,
Our local electrical supplier has a similar proposal – you can feel really green and pay more for your electricity by electing to buy wind power. In southern Alberta we have some of the best wind quality in the world, but it is still feel-good green energy nonsense.
IT’S NOT GREEN ENERGY, IT’S RED ENERGY
A colleague and I were discussing the major defects of current renewable energy schemes, such as grid-connected wind and solar power. Because the wind does not blow and the sun does nor shine 24/7, the renewable power that is produced is intermittent, and intermittent power is often of little or no value to the electrical grid.
In Alberta wind power producers are reportedly paid 20 cents per KWh and are paid that 20 cents 24/7, whether that power is needed or not. In comparison our reliable coal-fired or natural-gas-fired or hydro power costs 2 cents per KWh.
When that wind power is excess to our grid demand, we can either cut back on dispatchable power – typically gas-fired or hydro power, OR we can dump that excess wind power to neighbouring state power systems for a pittance – as little as 0 to 1 cent per KWh.
So we pay 20 cents for wind power that we have to dump for next-to-nothing.
Because of intermittency and other major defects, these so-called green energy schemes are not green and produce little useful energy. My friend remarked, “These green energy scams should stop now – IT’S NOT GREEN ENERGY, IT’S RED ENERGY!”.
Intermittency is a major Renewable Energy Defect, so RED ENERGY it is!
Postscript:
Not all Green Energy is RED Energy – there are some new energy systems that make sense, but current grid-connected wind and solar schemes seldom do. A key test is to remove all forced subsidies and see if the green energy scheme survives. Most (or all) grid-connected wind and solar power generation schemes would soon be bankrupt.
Post Postscript:
Cheap, abundant, reliable energy is the lifeblood of modern society. When misinformed politicians fool with energy systems, real people suffer and die. That is the tragic legacy of false global warming alarmism.
Anthony, the good news is at least they gave you a choice.
Only for now. Here’s how it works. As soon as you get enough people voluntarily paying the extra you start a campaign to “suggest” that everyone should pay “their fair share”. As that sentiment grows it becomes easier to pass “fairness” legislation to make everyone pay. Then you rinse, wash and repeat until you get prices where you want them.
The offer fails to tell people their electricity won’t really be coming from solar. There is a legal word for that (I think it is banned here. Starts with fr and ends with aud).
If Jesse Watters asked people who signed up if they are getting solar electricity, 100% would gleefully say, “Yes!”
According to a documentary broadcasted March 14 by “VPRO Tegenlicht”, the price of solar pv has reached a level where has become compatible with coal and gas (under 6 dollarcents per Kw/h).
Solar PV cheaper than coal, oil and gas: ?????http://www.npo.nl/vpro-tegenlicht/13-03-2016/VPWON_1246101
From the guys who brought you high priced unreliable wind power…
Are New Englanders being overcharged for electricity?
https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2016/03/15/markey-kennedy-push-for-scrutiny-region-electricity-market/CNhjQuv4Dx3GlkBqt7rqeO/story.html
US Senator Edward Markey and US Representative Joseph P. Kennedy III say changes are needed to protect consumers from being overcharged as part of New England’s system for ensuring there is enough electricity during peak demand times.
Known as the forward capacity market, the auction system pays power plant owners for what is essentially an insurance policy to keep the lights on. The latest auction will cost ratepayers $3 billion….
Hey, at least you were asked. Here in Ontario, Canada, the Auditor General has discovered that we’ve paid $37 billion above what we should have for energy over the last 6 years…
On top of that, we have no opposition to this from the Progressive Conservatives (the Official Opposition party). Personally I would support a system where green energy is a choice (I know that it’s all the same electricity once it is on the grid). I am sure that many on the left will be happy to pay more, and I would be happy to not pay more. Kind of like how people who buy lottery tickets are happy to pay voluntary taxes so I can pay less. Taxation of the stupid.
Some of my neighbours have “This home is powered by Bullfrog Power”, which is a “green” company. I believe they pay to buy credits that go to wind and solar, etc. As you say, that’s their right, but obviously not enough of them do this, so we all have to pay.
Much like a few years ago, when it was pointed out that not many of the critics of Mike Harris (the last real conservative politician I can name), actually voluntarily turned down their tax refund.
Me, I got my leather jacket fixed.
Right you are, Timo. My oldest brother taught me, “The lottery is a tax on the mathematically challenged.”
Why don’t they offer you to buy atomic electricity? James Bull is right.
I have said this on many occasions to those promoting green energy that they should only be supplied with electricity from windmills and solar panels and they would very soon start to beg for what the rural poor of India call real electricity.
Why should you pay for something that already exist. Would they dismantle the solar power panels if too few peoble accept the “offer”?
Act now and you’ll also receive a police association sticker for your car. Seriously though, you will see businesses coerced into paying up and for placement of a sign at their front entrance to identify that they have paid for the protection racket.
[noted – thanks very much! -mod]
The power of “signaling.” I am sure they give you a window sticker or lawn sign to post.
And for an extra 1.5 cents we’ll name the electrons after you or a designated family member and register them in the international (IPCC) electron registry.
A fool and his money are soon parted.
Signs/billboards at Vail stating 100% wind powered…but no windmills in sight. Go figure.
Anth*ny, I’ve gotten the same thing some months ago from Allegany Power. The “request” had an authoritative look to it that I “had” to do it. Not kidding. I’ve had similar authoritative-looking notices that I “should” change to other, independent electric providers, but in fact this is NOT required at all! I don’t need to do anything.
These notices should be considered as false-advertising IMO and deplorable.
Anyone who voluntarily pays more than necessary for electricity should be ‘sustainably committed’ – to a mental institution.
Just to be fair, it should be noted that PG&E is not the only company doing this. Most companies offer an “eco” plan where you pay 25% 50% or 100% more and you will get approximately 25%, 50%, 100% of your power from alternate energy sources rather than coal. These programs are usually mandated by government, though in Texas it is voluntary, but idiots do tend to pay for them. Though I did live in an apartment in Arlington, TX where they tried to automatically sign me up for an eco program, probably because they got kickbacks.
Anyway, I always thought electrons were fungible. How they identify which electrons came from coal vs the Windmill must be wildly amazing technology.
My simple reply to PG&E would be to “go and boil your stupid heads”.
I hope this is what most sensible folk think.
Unfortunately, PG&E probably doesn’t want to do this either. I would seriously guess it has something to do with the California Public Utility Commission forcing the utilities hand. I know Iowa has a similar situation, where these programs are coerced.
They probably make more from the taxpayers than they do from those who actually use what they produce.
Do you at least get a Thank You note from the family that actually receives the solar electricity?
Brandon Gates commented: “…Which segment is seeing the highest percentage growth in Sunny California?…..In what state is utility-scale solar looking most viable?”
None of them. Wait, look! Ca has grown to 2% of total with solar in only 20 years! Just goes to show you how effective solar can be when you throw the people’s money at it. Ivanpah alone can be a road map for successful solar electrical generation facilities.
In Oregon a woman was standing outside the grocery with a table and little windmills trying to get people to sign up for this. I asked her if she got a commission for everyone who signed up. She affirmed and I pointed out to this rather progressive-looking person that she is driven by a profit motive. She asked if I would sign up and I said “Nah. It’s a waste of money.” She was quite unhappy with me. They also come door-to-door trying to get us to sign up despite the “No Soliciting” sign.
Here in Ontario, we all pay extra for wind and solar and other ruinables. It’s called the “Global Adjustment”.
Presently 9.85¢/kWh
http://www.ieso.ca/
Citizen Adjustment would be a better name for it comrade.
Looking at the possible bright side of the PG&E “offer”. Isn’t it a back door way to inform the lemmings that solar and wind really cost more and expose the fact that all those lies from the greenies and progressives and politicians. Also it allows the believers to put their money where their mouth is.
If it is like New Jersey, the fact is that the progressives in the State have mandated an ever increasing amount (%) of renewable electricity regardless of the cost, reliability, or availability. The greedy subsidized,renewable providers are pestering (calling) us every day starting in the morning ringing the phone on a ROBO call generally hanging up before we answer the phone believing they have a sucker on the line who will believe their lies.
I asked one salesperson which Company they work for, with the reply that they do not work for a company but seemingly some federal subsidized organization that is pushing the administration agenda.
Talking with one of the sales persons, I found out that they were totally uninformed on the facts and was unaware of the cost and reliability.
They seem to be exempt from call blocking for some reason.
Since it’s too deep to reply – @chris: Oh, yes, the income in CA is much higher than that in TN. Let’s compare Nashville area to Orange County, shall we?
Groceries 11% higher (in OC than in Nashville).
Utilities 23% higher.
Health care: 24% higher.
Transportation: 33% higher.
Housing: 203% higher.
Great deal, oh yes, such a GREAT deal.
(Please note, I am being quite fair here – I COULD have compared to San Francisco…)
Now, theoretically, you would have about the same standard of living in each State. Except for the fact that the “median” household in CA pays nearly TWICE as much in taxes as the “median” household in TN.
So, if you want a better standard of living? Move to TENNESSEE. (Although there are even better States than Tennessee, actually.)
Let me fill you in on a few things, the electricity that comes to you all is all mixed up, you can’t select green, grey or any other colour electron but worse than that, what you get is alternating current, a bunch of electrons is sent whizzing past through your wires for 100th (or 120th in some places) of a second, then sucked back past you in the other direction. The energy you use comes from the SAME ELECTRONS being used over and over again.
So not only are they misleading you on the colour of your electrons, they don’t even bother to tell you that you are not getting fresh new electrons, they are all used electrons.
Here in southern Wisconsin, We Energies have a similar program.
https://www.we-energies.com/residential/acctoptions/eft.htm
This is actually hilarious…I mean charging for the wind that blows on your face, or the Sun that shines(which has to be backed up by Diesel because it’s oh so reliable). And of course, Government has to mandate it because…everyone wants it? And it must be done to demonstrate commitment to sustainability(fealty to The State/The King/GOD)…which is why we need to pay more to “sustain” it? Just call it GAEA WORSHIP & be done with it!!!!
Packing the recycling fee into every community utility billing fee list did not happen overnight or by billing recipient response to mailings of this type. It required voluntary efforts followed by Board vote followed by numerous fee increases. The extra incentive is for local authorities to tax the value of the service fee with sales and franchise taxes tacked on. Harmony is achieved with redundant taxation.
You pay 14c/ kWh? What does SolarCity charge in your area?
I was told that 15c from them is a bargain compared to the regular rate.
Don’t show this to California advocacy and policy over reach types. Or you may be forced to line up and contribute.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160316105543.htm