Story submitted by Eric Worrall
British Botanists conducting a Summer survey of Scotland’s tallest mountain, Ben Nevis, have been stunned to find evidence of recently formed multi-year ice fields, areas of compacted snow, some of which weigh hundreds of tons.
According to the BBC;
“Hazards common in arctic and alpine areas but described as “extremely unusual” in the UK during the summer have been found on Ben Nevis.
A team of climbers and scientists investigating the mountain’s North Face said snowfields remained in many gullies and upper scree slopes.
On these fields, they have come across compacted, dense, ice hard snow call neve.
Neve is the first stage in the formation of glaciers, the team said.”
The team has also encountered sheets of snow weighing hundreds of tonnes and tunnels and fissures known as bergschrunds.
Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-28885119
This is how ice ages start – a buildup of snow which does not melt in the Summer, which leads to a positive feedback loop, as the growing ice sheet reflects more and more sunlight back into space.
I guess that doesn’t fit in terribly well with the narrative, does it……Another re-write needed.
That seems to tie in with Winnipeg’s new glacier:
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/winnipeg-still-dealing-with-18-metre-snow-pile-in-august-1.1951076
No, No, No. Ice stores heat and is the sure sign of CAGW. (Jumps up and down having a tizzy fit)\\
/Sarc
Buy stock in Scottish ski resorts. The upside looks very promising!!!
In summer and autumn 2009, when I visited Scotland, some complained they couldn’t travel to the ski resort the previous season on account of poor roads. I later heard 2010 was a brutal winter. Can anybody provide more info about road conditions leading to ski resorts in Scotland? It seems to me that like Arkansas, the places may be beautiful, but it may be difficult to execute travel.
I am surprised that the BBC reported this sign of global cooling. Out of character.
Oh no! Ice in the summer – it’s extreme weather!
(Runs around waving alarmist hands in the air)
A sure sign of warming. Obviously there’s so much heat the missing heat has been transferred to the bottom of the mountain.
I wonder how old these climbers and scientists were! I used to go rock climbing in Scotland quite a lot back in the 70s and 80s. It was nothing unusual to see patches of old hard snow that had survived the summer in North facing corries and gullies On one occasion, as late as August 1990, it was quite difficult to get to the start of my chosen climb on Ben Nevis because of a small bergschrund!
No surprise at all, Scotland’s temperatures are strongly affected by the Iceland Low, a semi-permanent atmospheric pressure system, while the precipitation is in the equal measure affected by the N. Atlantic SST (AMO).
Relationship Icelandic Low – AMO
That’s rather inconvenient.
Looks like the 1974 CIA report may be on right track.
How the Eugenicist 1%s who have birthed, marketed & profited from this deadly scam must be laughing.
They’ve been selling the World global warming caused by deadly plant food, while a very possible New Little Ice Age approaches.
Holdren & Ehrlich will also be pleased.
As I noted yesterday:
As Dr. David Viner of CRU said in 2004…….
“Unfortunately, it’s just getting too hot for the Scottish ski industry.”
Of course this is as predicted by climate scientists and is consistent with global warming.
Another sign of global warming. The world is so hot that the little cold left huddles up in small places like mountains creating glaciers. It’s worse than we thought.
The Old Farmer’s Almanac Editor Janice Stillman predicts ‘Super-Cold’ Winter, More Snow In Eastern U.S.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/21/farmers-almanac-cold-winter_n_5695761.html
Global Warming!
I hope the next Ice Age does not materialize before the Earth is finished Rebounding from the weight of the last Ice Age Glaciers. I certainly hope that Post Glacial Rebound will be debunked before that anyway. Am I talking to myself.?
Everything is caused by global warming/climate change/climate disruption so it must have some rational AGW explanation.
Let’s see!
Warm air causes more water vapor to stay in the air which leads to more evaporation. Because of the high latitude and altitude of the mountains of Scotland this precipitation arrive mostly as snow.
If it is too much, it won’t all melt during summer which then leads to ice to accumulate. This then cause the ice to expand.
But wait, this could cause a new ice age caused by global warming.
We’re all doomed!
The demise of the Scottish ski industry is not new. Viner was right! 14 years after his infamous statement and 10 years after his pronouncement of the death of the Scottish ski industry we had these weather reports.
Scottish skiing is headed for doom.
One site.
“Neve is the first stage in the formation of glaciers”
Formation of glaciers is not inconsistent with global warming.
A few runs of the millions of GCM’s projections show glaciation – so it must be true! Can’t be any other explanation!
The other day while watching the usaprocyclingchallenge event stage where they were in Breckenridge Colorado, the camera’s showed local mountains. There were many areas near the peaks with older snow pack. Most ski areas there have climate change (global warming) departments which I find strange, but isn’t surprising given the current levels of political correctness and junk science pervasive in our culture and even ski resorts need to pander to the Cause. It’s such a shame that Goddess Gaia hasn’t gotten the memo. I wonder how St. Mary’s Glacier near Golden is faring, having skied it in the Summer months in the ’70’s.
We had unprecedented amounts of snow last winter on Scottish mountains 😉 The winter storms that [thrashed] England fell as snow in Scotland above 600 m. It was not a cold winter with little to no frost in Aberdeen. August is normally the height of summer in Scotland but we had 3˚C last night with rural frosts. The snow on Ben Nevis will be freezing hard.
Anthony, did you get my email about Earth’s Wandering Magnetic Field?
http://euanmearns.com/the-laschamp-event-and-earths-wandering-magnetic-field/
I know this but they will still blame man. They will simply go back to their 1970s statements and say that were were right but for the wrong reasons.
Here is someone who appears to have never changed his tune since the 1970s. Let’s hope he’s wrong.
But the carbonphobes have assured me that 400ppm or 1,000ppm can stop the next ice age. Amazing stuff despite an ice age when co2 was well over 3,000ppm. We must act now!
I like the idea of being able to glissade in summer. Hurray!
Oops- typo in title- Surpise should be Surprise. (I know, I know, I make the same typo myself waaay too often.)
johnmarshall says:
August 24, 2014 at 4:15 am
It’s well hidden, try to find it in Sci/Environment or any of the UK News pages without using the link in the article or the searching the site for jGlacier-like hazards. If you can then I’d be quite surprised. It’s been well hidden since it was put on the BBC site.
The glaciers will grow, the weight will force Scotland down into the crust, causing the sea levels at the coasts to rise as detected by the sensitive satellites. Which will be reported in the Grauniad and on MSNBCUL8TR as proof positive the Catastrophic Alarming Climate Activity is real, resumed, and very serious!
I await the breathless reports of the terrible toll among the Scottish seagull populations from the growing loss of beach habitat as the offshore wind turbines sometimes rotate in the background.
Has Al Gore been to Nevis in Scotland recently? That would explain it.
Surprise!
But Viner said in 2004
The new ice age has begun! Save children and the elderly first.
NO NO NO! It MUST be global warming producing glacers. The warm weather causes moisture that forms on a colder surface which creates ice and that becomes glacers and blah blah blah….
I don’t care what these guys observed in the real world. What do the models say?
I predict, oops I mean project that all crocodiles in Scotland will soon be extinct.
If this occurs it is a sure sign of global warming, oops I mean climate change.
Obviously, this is simply another sign of Climate Change. As everything is a sign of Climate Change a new ice age must be a sign of it too.
Doug Jones said on August 24, 2014 at 5:16 am:
Ah man, you spoiled it before the contest was officially announced today! Starting with those published today, you’re to make a list of all the hidden title typos. Once you have 18 (to celebrate the practically-18 years without global warming), you submit it for verification, and if you found them all first you’ve won and will be emailed the prize, the coveted Watts Golden Finger picture, now with Kenji pawprint insert.
But now that you blabbed the first one to everyone, they have to scrap the announcement and will reschedule for a later date. Thanks a lot, bud.
johnmarshall says:
August 24, 2014 at 4:15 am
I am surprised that the BBC reported this sign of global cooling. Out of character
I think this may have been the result of a secret meeting, at the BBC, with some sceptics and they have decided to prepare the way for an AGW bail-out. 🙂
kadaka (KD Knoebel) says:
August 24, 2014 at 5:21 am
The glaciers will grow, the weight will force Scotland down into the crust, causing the sea levels at the coasts to rise as detected by the sensitive satellites.
====================================
It could even cause Scotland to tip over.
Assuming this trend continues:
First it’s existence will be denied.
Then, overwhelming evidence will convince even the most die hard globalwarmist, and they’ll stutter excuses for its existence.
Finally, they’ll claim it was actually a predicted result of human-generated CO2 and is caused by global warming.
I was going to post my own playful comment on how this is a sure sign of cataclysmic global warming, but everyone else has done a great job so far. I am interested to see how this is actually explained away by alarmists. If anyone picks up a paper on that subject I would love to see it posted here.
With the incipient volcanic winter looming for Scottish Highlands, they have an excuse for cooling on the way.
As David Johnson says August 24, 2014 at 4:30 am
“I wonder how old these climbers and scientists were! I used to go rock climbing in Scotland quite a lot back in the 70s and 80s. It was nothing unusual to see patches of old hard snow that had survived the summer in North facing corries and gullies On one occasion, as late as August 1990, it was quite difficult to get to the start of my chosen climb on Ben Nevis because of a small bergschrund!”.
Too early to get too exited about this. Seen snow in Scottish mountains before in August and snow as well before CAGW became the “in thing” for certain people.
“Kate Forney on August 24, 2014 at 5:54 am says:
…It could even cause Scotland to tip over”
Oh noes! It’s the tipping point that Gore and Hansen have warned us about!
Sorry, I couldn’t resist 😉
“Bruce Cobb on August 24, 2014 at 5:02 am says:
One site.”
And one more reason to laugh at Prof Viner h/t Jimbo
I sense the advent of CAGC (catastrophic anthropogenic global cooling). We must all listen to the climate scientists and obey the politicians for whom they work or we shall all surely die as the planet is destroyed by ice!
Global warming is the greatest threat to mankind. The warmer temps will cause us all to freeze to death. I have it on the best AUTHORITY… 97% of our best climate scientists. Who are y’all, to say different. GK
This is not good news.
It looks like a good time to look at Pope’s Climate Theory
http://popesclimatetheory.com/
On the index page, there is a Short Version. Here is a link to the first page of the short version.
http://popesclimatetheory.com/page56.html
I do explain that Snow falls in the Warm Times when there is Ocean Effect Snow and then, after enough snow falls and enough ice advance, it does get cold again.
Cold periods always follow Warm Periods, ever since Warm Water got into the Polar Regions.
Let me know what you think of My Theory.
That is why they changed the motto from ‘global warming’ to ‘climate change’
It seems to me that Ben Nevis is pidgeon portugues for Bens Neves, or good snows. Is this a folk memory of a visit by Vasco de Gama?
A bit off topic, but in the “you knew it was going to happen” department:
Riots in Ferguson caused by Climate Change!!!
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/08/23/You-thought-there-was-no-possible-link-between-Ferguson-and-climate-change-Think-again
(from 350 dot org, natch)
First Hadrian’s wall, now this….they really DO want independence, don’t they 🙂 (OK, I know it’s not really on the border, but close…).
Now I can see folks queueing up for Haggis-sicles….(ouch….)…
I hope it doesn’t affect the taste of my favorite single malt, highlands.
That the climate can change drastically in just a short period can be seen in these Scottish related excerpts. The first of which seems to indicate that glaciers are no stranger to Scotland.
1) “The reality of this period of cold is reinforced by this account from 1610 when John Taylor, talking of the hills around him in Deeside Scotland, remarked that “the oldest men alive never saw but snow on the top of divers of these hills both in summer as in winter.”
2) “Our modern bouts of amnesia regarding previous climatic conditions can be seen to be nothing new by reading the comments from the annals of Dumfermline Scotland from 1733/4, when it recorded that wheat was first grown in the district in 1733. Lamb wryly observes that was not correct, as enough wheat had been grown further north in the early 1500’s to sustain an export trade (before the 1560’s downturn).
This information also usefully confirms a warm period around that date, to one that had changed to a cold period by the time of Pastor Schaller commenting in 1560.
3) “A farmer from Buchan in North East Scotland, one of the snowiest parts of lowland Britain, wrote in the agricultural section of the local newspaper during the exceptionally mild winter of 1933/34.
“1934 has opened true to the modern tradition of open, snowless winters. The long ago winters are no precedent for our modern samples. During the last decade, during several Januarys the lark has heralded spring up in the lift from the middle to the end of the month. Not full fledged songs but preliminary bars in an effort to adapt to our climatic change.”
It then goes on to say;
“It is unwise to assume that the modern winters have displaced the old indefinitely”
and also; “Our modern winters have induced an altered agricultural regime”
——— —-
These taken from my article;
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/11/01/a-short-anthology-of-changing-climate/
tonyb
why is the story not on the BBC’s science and environment pages next to “Greenland ice loss doubles from late 2000s” and “Global warming slowdown ‘could last another decade'”?
tteclod said
‘In summer and autumn 2009, when I visited Scotland, some complained they couldn’t travel to the ski resort the previous season on account of poor roads. I later heard 2010 was a brutal winter. Can anybody provide more info about road conditions leading to ski resorts in Scotland? It seems to me that like Arkansas, the places may be beautiful, but it may be difficult to execute travel. ‘
In the early eighties we skied a lot in the Scottish ski resorts of which Aviemore is the best known. Skiing starts at 2000 feet and goes up to around 3500 feet.The skiing was excellent during that period but saw a decline soon after, attributed to climate change.
Generally speaking the road are kept well clear of snow but the last 2 or 3 winters have seen a return to the conditions of the early eighties. The road system was overwhelmed by snow. Its their livelihood so generally speaking the snow plough drivers are very hard working but sometimes nature will stop them working.
For context of snow and ice in Scotland through the ages see my post at 6.55 just above.
tonyb
David Johnson says:
“back in the 70s and 80s. It was nothing unusual to see patches of old hard snow that had survived the summer in North facing corries and gullies On one occasion, as late as August 1990, it was quite difficult to get to the start of my chosen climb on Ben Nevis because of a small bergschrund!”
Interesting–the definition of a glacier is a mass of snow, neve, and ice that shows signs of present of past movement. Among the evidences of movement is the formation of a bergschrund, a crack across the head of a mass of snow and ice where the lower part is moving away from stationary snow and ice above it. Without seeing it (doesn’t show on satellite imagery), can’t tell for sure, but if a bergschrund is persistent, this may actually qualify as a glacier.
Robert of Ottawa: “It seems to me that Ben Nevis is pidgeon portugues for Bens Neves, or good snows.”
======
That sounds about right. From the article:
“found on Ben Nevis […] compacted, dense, ice hard snow call neve.”
bene + neve
Found at “Good Neve” … neve. Surprise! 🙂
‘Known affectionately by hill walkers and climbers as ‘The Ben’, the origin of the name ‘Ben Nevis’ is disputed. Ben Nevis” is an anglicisation of the Gaelic phrase ‘Beinn Nibheis’. A beinn is a mountain – fair enough – but the definitive meaning of Nibheis is more elusive being variously understood as ‘malicious’ or a derivation of ‘neamh-bhathais’ (from Neamh meaning ‘heavens’ or ‘clouds’ and ‘bathais’ meaning ‘top of the head’. A literal translation of neamh-bathais would therefore be “the mountain with its head in the clouds’. The people of Fort William and particularly those who work in the local distillery will tell you it means “Mountain of Heaven” and since its waters are used to produce the Dew of Ben Nevis whisky, perhaps they are right.’
http://www.wanderingaengustreks.com/info-Ben-Nevis.htm
Alex Pope:
I enjoyed you presentation about polar ice cycle as a thermostat . It agrees very much with thoughts I have had. Regulation of our temperature is evident and vigorous, and many emergent phenomena such as storms and clouds contribute to the SST and it’s quite narrow record of change. Albedo is poorly represented, if at all in GMC’s giving them little value for predicting climate change. As you state they have the cart before the horse.
“It could even cause Scotland to tip over.”
Nah, more likely it would cause Scotland to break off from Great Britain. Oh wait, that’s could happen a lot sooner.
Well this proves it’s global anthropogenic climate change: Children will not know what warm is. The narrative continues.
Ben is the Scottish word mountain, but it sounds plausible that Neve would be a snow cap.
I meant to say “Ben is the Scottish word for mountain, but it seems plausible that Nevis would refer to a snow cap. “
It’s a Gaelic name, anglicised. The Nevis has nothing to do with the Latin derived words for snow that lead to neve.
http://www.wanderingaengustreks.com/info-Ben-Nevis.htm
It takes a botanist to find a Mammoth!
latecommer2014:
Thanks, The most recent ten thousand years has had a really tightly bounded temperature and sea level. For those who do not read my Theory, the temperature cycle looks just like the temperature cycle of a house, when the thermostat turns the cooling on and off as needed.
Temperature does not drift along an average like the Climate Model Output does.
Look at the actual data. Model Output does not look like real measured data.
With regard to the derivation of the name of the mountain Ben is the english spelling of Beinn meaning mountain, this is what wiki has to say
“Ben Nevis” is an Anglicisation of the Scottish Gaelic name “Beinn Nibheis”. “Beinn” is the most common Gaelic word for “mountain”, “Nibheis” is variously understood, though the word is commonly translated as “malicious” or “venomous”. An alternative interpretation is that “Beinn Nibheis” derives from “beinn nèamh-bhathais”, from “nèamh” “heavens, clouds” and “bathais” “top of a man’s head”. One translation would therefore be “the mountain with its head in the clouds”, though “mountain of Heaven” is also frequently given
As the area around the mountain is famous for rain I quite like the mountain with its head in the clouds
NB The Gaelic alphabet has only 18 letters, although vowels can have pronunciation changing accents. Amongst the missing letters is “v” so “bh” and to a lesser extent “mh” can be pronounced as “v”
Aye, that’s a wee bit inconvenient.
I don’t know whether this is an effect* of global warming or the start of an ice age, but I do know we are doomed either way.
(*I refuse to say “impact”.)
Scotland had a very wet and mild winter last year with predominant westerly winds from the Atlantic ocean, leading to huge amounts of snow for the highest mountains. It would be expected in this scenario for there to be more ice left in summer due to this situation than normal.
There are remnants of Gaelic in the German Language as well which gets mangled with English translation. My German made .357 revolver is spelled “Windicator” in the translated English paperwork it came with, but is pronounced “Vindicator”. The damn thing has a kick to it too. If you get close enough you will be dead even if it just grazes you, but at any distance and you’ld be safe from my shot. It has its place though. It’s my hallway shooter.
“Bruce Cobb says:
One site.”
That’s all that’s needed to shred earlier warnings about Scottish warming.
Now we know where all that missing ice from Greenland and Antarctica has gone (see:that most reliable of newspapers, the Guardian:
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/aug/24/incredible-polar-ice-loss-cryosat-antarctica-greenland
Actually, this ice in Scotland was put there by the Scottish National Party as a prerequisite to Scotland’s independence, since they would need some sort of tourist attraction to keep the money rolling in after losing the subventions from Westminster.
Some may think they were joking about Global Warming being essential to the start of an Ice age, but not so. There exists a good theory on these lines:
1 Cooling is not enough as with cold air there is not enough water vapour in the air to deposit a large amount of snow, needed for the ice to form.
2. Warming is not emough as while there is plenty of water vapour, it will not turn into snow.
3. Therefore what is needed is rapid warming (to get the water vapour in the air), followed by rapid cooling, (to get it to deposit large amounts of snow to turn into ice).
Witness the mammoths, who lived in a warm climate (witness the greenery found in their stomachs, from trees that do not now live in the area where the bodies were found) yet were quick frozen (witness the flesh was said to be so well preserved it was edible – by the dogs at least.
We haven’t quite got to this rapid heating plus quick deep freezing cycle yet, but wait, the Climate Scientists are coming!
There was fresh snow on some of the Scottish mountains the other day. I’ve never heard of fresh snow in August before.
The average Scotland temperatures are low enough in winter for this to get a start but the tallest “peak”, at 4000′, is 1000′ lower than my back yard. And even here the north facing slope of one of these hills at our place loses its snow by June. Temperature this morning 45 degrees F. Cannot yet see above the 7000′ hills, clouds too low, but I am certain there was a good snow fall up there last night, but then this is Wyoming! In past years even our glaciers have melted up at 12000′ to 13000′. Not so recently. This can be monitored from our livingroom window.
I am one betting on more cold to come for the next several or possibly many years. From all that I read here and other sites my bet is that this is a multivariate situation with oceanic oscillations, solar variations, winds, clouds and possibly undersea volcanism playing complex, intercorrelated, non-linear rolls, whose relationships are yet to be quantified, in the climatic changes we will see.
Khwarizmi says: August 24, 2014 at 7:13 am
More details at : http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/01/05/59/16/PDF/LODvsSSN.pdf
CR Carlson says:
August 24, 2014 at 5:08 am
The mountain “glaciers” here in the Colorado Rockys are not true glaciers in my opinion. They do compact and they do have some glacier like features but they don’t flow or carry any load of debris any distance. The St Mary’s glacier you mentioned is alive and well as I was on it from top to bottom this July. People still ski there too but I suggest anyone who does it should have a pretty good skill level as the bottom of the hill is somewhat rocky. It is true there are more carry over snow fields than I have seen in the past few years but the snow varies so much that you can’t take much stock as an indicator of climate. On the 4th of July in 2012, I believe that was the year, we climbed to one Front Range pass that had easily 10 meters of snow on the trail in several locations where we would usually expect open trail. I regularly visit one other “glacier” that is clearly a relic of what was a fully developed and flowing glacier that had filled the cirque about 8,000 years ago. I suspect the Scottish Highland glacier development is very similar to what we see in Colorado. Some areas have prevalent accumulation areas that may or may not last through the summer season. This year there is no doubt that there will be many snow fields in the Indian Peaks area that will carry over to the next snow accumulation.
“Global Warming stores heat in snow, that’s why we have this rapid build-up of ice. You gotta have ice to have heat. No, really…
-Joe Biden, 2nd Head Imbecile in Charge.
It must be the jet stream. Or maybe it’s the rotten Arctic ice causing a negative feedback. No wait! It’s definitely polar bears carrying ice cubes on their backs.
A bit off topic, but in the “you knew it was going to happen” department:
Riots in Ferguson caused by Climate Change!!!
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/08/23/You-thought-there-was-no-possible-link-between-Ferguson-and-climate-change-Think-again
(from 350 dot org, natch)
*************
Ms. Smith is correct in her article on 350, AGW and the riots ARE linked: the same paid trolls that protest for AGW are inciting riots. Only 7 of the dozens arrested for rioting in Ferguson were local.
CR Carlson says:
August 24, 2014 at 5:08 am
The other day while watching the usaprocyclingchallenge event stage where they were in Breckenridge Colorado,
+++++++++++++++++++
For a while in August, there was no need to look at the mountains for white stuff, it was on the highways …
http://www.9news.com/story/weather/2014/08/10/hail-forces-closure-of-highway-67/13877525/
I vaguely remember that the New Scientist had an article in , I think the 1960s, about the small but permanent summer snowfields in the Highlands and the alpine flora associated with them.
I am sure that they were on the Northern slopes of several mountains, not confined to Ben Nevis . There really is no need for the BBC to hide this story away as if it was some shameful family secret that the neighbours must not hear about.
Sorry, cut and paste error:
wws says:
August 24, 2014 at 6:47 am
A bit off topic….
in: Perennial snow in the Scottish mountains
That is, snow completely melted all over Scotland as early as in the summer of 1933 and it has not happened since 2006. There is nothing unusual about its current behavior and early 21st century melts were not unprecedented either.
Move along people nothing to see here.
I find it a tad strange hearing some leap onto the Farmer’s Almanac prediction like it was gospel. I rather think we don’t need the embarrassment if it turns out like a climate model, because you can count on the usual upper crust of misanthropes to jeer and scoff.
I think they need to adjust those temperatures very quickly now.
It’s been a cold August – weather not climate.
This is not inconsistent with Global Warming.
But it is inconsistent with the supposed evidence for global warming/a>.
Which is very inconvenient.
But they are rotten snowfields of very marginal quality and it’s all your fault, so pay me.
Pamela Gray says:
August 24, 2014 at 8:11 am
It’s my hallway shooter. (HS)
+++++++++++++++++++++
LOL. Love the “term” I would hate to say how many of my friends have an HS out here where the nearest neighbour may be miles away. (Well, actually I don’t know any that don’t.) Not just in Canada, eh?
Back on topic, it’s gone from highs of 30 C last week to a projected high of 16 today, my horses are growing their winter coats. Time to go cut a few cords of wood for the coming snow. I fear not for the glaciers of the Rocky Mountains. They have expanded and receded many times in the past and I imagine that will continue long after man has left the scene.
http://www.oneonta.edu/faculty/baumanpr/geosat2/Big_Melt_Down/Big_Melt_Down.htm
Why didn’t they wait untill the volcano in Iceland blows its top then they could just blaim it on that. They are getting sloppy.
Kate Forney says:
August 24, 2014 at 5:54 am
kadaka (KD Knoebel) says:
August 24, 2014 at 5:21 am
The glaciers will grow, the weight will force Scotland down into the crust, causing the sea levels at the coasts to rise as detected by the sensitive satellites.
====================================
It could even cause Scotland to tip over.
Hopefully the Scots will vote for “independence” is September and “go it alone.” Otherwise they may take England and Wales with them as they tip over!!
The highest tops in the Scottish mountains are just over 4000 ft. There is speculation that there may have been small glaciers in the Cairngorm Mountains during the LIA, hence Scotland is a highly marginal candidate for glaciation during this inter glacial.
As a boy about 35 years ago I recall seeing permanent snow fields on the N face of Ben Nevis. The locals said they had always been there and hence these were likely remnants from the LIA. Late 20th century warming saw these melt. I drove past late May this year and there was still a lot of snow on the N facing slopes.
Hell, that should have been 45 years ago 🙁
From Pamela Gray on August 24, 2014 at 8:11 am:
Wow. So that’s what it takes to make them stay in the bedroom and not run away.
On a hot July 12th, 1970, I was dropped off by helicopter with an assistant to map the geology around a copper showing in the foothills of the St. Elias Range in the Yukon. It started out as a fairly hot day and we were in short sleeves although we had rain slickers in our packs. The helicopter pilot advised that he had to fly the copter into Whitehorse for its X hundred hours mechanical check-up and that he might be late, so to take a bit more food with us.
We worked and sweated climbing up stream beds, sampling rock and stream silt all day and about 6pm we came down into the valley, built a fire for tea and dinner. We weren’t too concerned about the time since it was essentially daylight or near it, all night. Unannounced, however, was pick up of the wind and soon dark clouds appeared over a ridge to the east of us, which was between us and the main camp. Soon it started to rain, a cold rain and after trying to keep a decent fire going with dwarf birch roots and small sticks, we made a decision – its better to walk all night towards camp than sit exposed to weather.
Up the slope of the ridge we went and about half way up the 1000m or so slope, it began to snow, wet snow. Soon we were slipping and sliding, grasping dwarf birch shrubbery and finally we got over the ridge and slipped and slid down the other side. Then the long slog through the bush in the rain, not speaking, to where the welcome smell of the breakfast fire told us we were back. The pilot was back in camp but socked. That’s my snow in July story.
Oops should read “socked in”. We were camped on Aishihik Lake and working toward the Ruby Range.
The BBC is letting chinks form in the hitherto impervious armour: –
” In the early hours of Sunday morning, the temperature dropped to -1.9C at Katesbridge, in County Down – which set a new record for the coldest August night in Northern Ireland. The previous low of -1.1C was set in 1964″
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28916894 – “Last updated 1518 BST”.
Downloaded at about 1730 BST [1630 Z].
Auto
David Jones says: August 24, 2014 at 9:42 am
………..
While Scotland was rebounding from the last Ice age, the South East of England was sinking.
New Ice age would alter the balance, with the South East rising, the Doggerland would resurface, England would double its size and rejoin the Low Countries, and become again part of continental Europe.
http://nextnature.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/doggerland_530.jpg
Herman A (Alex) Pope says:
August 24, 2014 at 6:32 am
Just read your short version and will read the long version later, which I presume contains more data and detail. Makes lots of sense. Takes an engineer to see that the ‘greenhouse effect’ is equivalent to a planetary air-conditioner with evaporation and reflection the mechanism! That’s a great insight. Maybe you discuss it in the long version, but I’ll ask anyway. Do you think the closing of the Isthmus of Panama and the separation of Antarctica from South America, which seem to have initiated the Pleistocene glaciation, also had the collateral effect of narrowing the upper and lower temperature boundaries?
Same thing is observed in Eastern Iceland (Austurland): those who crossed the pass from Seydisfjordur to Egilsstadir (main tourist route from the busiest port there to the Ring Road) could observe that snow doesn’t melt any more at the 700-1000 m altitude.
Damn global warming! Lol.
Scotch on the rocks.
there was an article on the net the other day that the montana dakota area is going to have a very bad winter this comming year.
now this is a genuine Montana stove top tail.
in the late 40’s a young fellow bought one of the local newspapers in one of the small towns in the northeast corner of the state. he announced that he was from Philidelphia (which instantly anointed him as an idiot in 80% of the citizenry’s minds) and that he was going to bring culture to the heathens.
not having any sources of note he decided to use the weather as the opening topic for his first front page, the thing was a weekly. so he asked some of the locals who the local weather expert was.
and so they said. why Charlie ManyHorses of course, hangs out in front of the Traders State Bank when he’s in town. (Its not a facetious name as the town was the administrative center of the Fort Peck Indian Reservation and a lot of Indians had business there.) so the lad sought out Charlie and put the question to him. Charlie returned that it was going to be a terrible winter. so the kid published this great news in his paper and generated considerable interest. people started buying house heating coal (this was before natural gas hit that part of the state). they bought so much that the local drayman hired the entire high school football team to haul and shovel coal. after about a month he interviewed Charlie again, and again Charlie utters those famous words “Gonna be heap bad winter this year.” (this was definitely not the way most of the people in the town talked at the time but as it was the era of the lone ranger movies most people from “Back East” thought they did).
so summer rolled along. the Great Northern Railway went from one carload of coal for the town in the spring to one carload per week. and the local drayman sold it all.
so about the end of august the newspaperman figured out that he better do an “In Depth” piece on the coming winter. something on the order of Local Medicine Man Divuldges Secrets of Weather forcasting, or Local Shaman admits to using grouse bones rather than eagle feathers in weather forcasting ritual, you get the drift. well he did and Charlie said
“White Eyes put much coal in cellars”
a couple of the local barflys just happened to hear the interview and it went all over town in about an hour. the coal business went to zero by sundown. the “newspaperman” was out of town by the end of the week and the town returned to watching the world go by.
the moral of the story is that all winters in Montana are baaaaaad.
when they have a warm winter the snow gets so deep on the ground that the dogs learn how to walk on their hind legs only so they can see over the snow banks. but it only gets down to -30 degrees below zero (F for the out of towners among us).
cold winters, it doesn’t snow much, maybe a couple of feet on the level. but it gets cold. occasionally down to -60 or more.
remember this is a tail told by a short expatriot (70 some odd years ago) so take it for what its worth.
by the way I heard that the glacier park road crews couldn’t get the Going to the Sun highway open before July 1st this year.
THATS A BIG DEAL.
PK
More signs of global warming.
I think the US Military believes they can make those glaciers go away by owning the weather:
http://csat.au.af.mil/2025/volume3/vol3ch15.pdf
I like that.
“This is how ice ages start – a buildup of snow which does not melt in the Summer, which leads to a positive feedback loop, as the growing ice sheet reflects more and more sunlight back into space.”
We have been told again and again that feedback makes it always hotter.
Surprice surprice, it works both ways.
[And the surprice of global cooling will, indeed, be very costly. 8<) .mod]
[+emphasis]
Your statement may well be prophetic if we are entering another ice age… though I hope, in this instance, that you are incorrect.
🙂
This must be a consequence of the rising of Scotland being freed of the weight of the ice-age coverage and the sinking of the the south coast of England. Maybe a few cold winters and wet summers will be the turning point for this sensitive balance. Also, don’t forget that the continents are all moving north (slowly).
Could it be the beginning of the next ice-age? Nobody knows. We just have to continue recording the real data without fudging those. If the sun stays in minimum conditions and the release of coal ash and other dirty exhaust will be lowered, the conditions for more snow/ice covering will be better.
Wattsupwiththat gets Goat Haunt web cam fixed via special effects of truth.
http://www.allglacier.com/webcams/gohaunt.php
Just in time product.
“…De hot come go, come go. Now Is Coldy Coldy. Is ice. Hot den cold. Frreeeezy ice til hot again….” –attributed to Stephen Belcher, but actually by Sean Thomas in The Telegraph.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100222487/when-it-comes-to-climate-change-we-have-to-trust-our-scientists-because-they-know-lots-of-big-scary-words/
Man made global warming is settled science didntchaknow but those diabolical Koch brothers bought up all the thermometer mfg companies and changed the calibration so now all thermometers read a lower temperature than it really is. Their sinister plan even causes your lying eyes to see snow and ice where there isn’t any.
jorgekafkazar says: —
“Dr David Viner, one-time senior research scientist at the climatic research unit of the University of East Anglia … was trapped under a glacier in Stockport, so was unable to comment at the time the Telegraph went to press.”
Kate,
“It could even cause Scotland to tip over.”
The Scots have been tipping over for centuries.
It’s all the scotch you see….
Berényi Péter says:
August 24, 2014 at 9:14 am
There is a significant difference between snow remaining on the peaks in gullies and some northern slopes – a common sight in Scotland; and ice from packed multi-year snow forming neve with bergschrunds. Although I can understand a warmist wish to have nobody notice.
This is off the topic … but I fear some data tampering … does anyone remember this graph for 2013 http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/meant80n.uk.php It was not like this at all the last time I looked at it!!! It has been doctored!
Even in swiss alps some glaciers start to grow … just look at the last year 2013 ..
http://glaciology.ethz.ch/messnetz/lengthvariation.html
My models clearly show a CO2 induced migration of heat from Scotland into the depths of the Pacific Ocean although recent adjustments suggest it might be the Atlantic.
I’m “an old fart” who remembers the 1970’s when “the coming ice age” was the current panic…
Warmists have done a “Winston Smith” to re-write history, and convince us that, no, they were not predicting an imminent ice age in the 1970’s. We’ll know that the CAGW camp has conceded defeat, when they start insisting that, no, they were not predicting a runaway greenhouse back in the 1990’s.
vukcevic on August 24, 2014 at 10:42 am
More reading about Scotland and …
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonian_orogeny
Pamela Gray says:
August 24, 2014 at 8:11 am
German spelling has nothing at all to do with Gaelic orthography. Gaelic just has a smaller alphabet than most other European languages.
In German, the letter W is pronounced V and the letter V is pronounced F, as too is the letter F. Also in Dutch. W is pronounced V in Nordic languages as well, but in Swedish, V is more like B (as in Spanish), while it’s V in Norwegian and Danish.
I knew the End Was Near when I found, in my local Fresh Market in Florida, a special promotion of bags of haggis-flavored potato chips. (I could NOT have made that up.)
“So far, many new populations of rare fauna such as highland saxifrage, tufted saxifrage and wavy meadow grass have been recorded.”
Hmm, you’d think biologists would know that saxifrage are flora. Of course, it’s more likely the BBC’s reporter is too stupid to know the difference between plants and animals.
I expect there will be a climate scientist from Australia get icebound in it on a Russian air ship.
sturgishooper on August 24, 2014 at 3:43 pm
“… but in Swedish, V is more like B (as in Spanish), …”
– Since when? As a Swede …
(Confused this with Finnish people often have problems with words that includes “b” and they pronance it instead as “p”? Like “bank” [“bank”] -> “pank” [“broke”])
You bunch of scaremongering ……. peoples. This has been such a weak summer. I don’t want an ice age. Clive, make it go away. Besides we have a Semi formal outdoor event to host in late September and it’s starting to look like we should plan on serving hot Apple cider instead of chilled sauvignon (sp?).
Jimbo, just out of curiosity, what is the 2nd comment on this item?
To the “old fart” who remembers the “coming ice age”. My charming young wife and I were visitors to Edinburgh in early July 1969. After eating what passes for breakfast in Scotland, we ventured out for an early brisk walk. We were greeted with a stiff cold wind and snow flurries. The brisk walk was also brief as we were better prepared for a July in Delaware US.
Up here in the Frozen North, we just turned our furnace on today. I don’t remember doing that before September in other years.
Can someone send some of that ‘missing heat’ up our way?
I’m sure the missing heat is being stored in these new glaciers somewhere. Maybe ice mass balance compression. It will be confirmed when glacial isostatic adjustment looks like sea level rise.
Methinks the Scots must be hiding the missing [heat] under their kilts.
JBJ says:
August 24, 2014 at 2:39 pm
This is off the topic … but I fear some data tampering … does anyone remember this graph for 2013 http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/meant80n.uk.php It was not like this at all the last time I looked at it!!! It has been doctored!
===============================================
Wayback machine has versions back to 2009
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/meant80n.uk.php
Oops. “missing” should read “missing heat”.
[Butt all thongs (er, things) are hotter under a missing kilt. .mod]
Walter Dnes
Prominent climatologists Kukla and Mathews wrote a letter to Pres. Nixon in 1972 warning him of the coming extensive glaciation within a century. It was the global cooling hype of 1970s. My guess is we might see a 30-year cool period similar to 1945-1977 but we will not return to the LIA. The sun is not like the Sporer and Maunder minima. Sea level today is at least 20 cm higher than in 1850 due to thermal expansion and melted glaciers. IMO the 1,000-year natural warm cycle of Roman Warm Period, MWP and the present is intact.
MarkG, Mid-August was the typical first snowfall in Wyoming from at least the mid-1950’s through 1980. This was also when Glaciers were expanding the region. We have 2 generations that are unaware of the naturally cool part of an 80 year climate cycle. If we are entering a cool phase glacier expansion, like what happened between 1950 and 1980, can happen.
Permanent Snow fields in Scotland are not unusual, Cairgorm and Ben Nevis are both know to have had them among British mountaineers. The last few years they have been smaller and on “the Ben” have retreated to a few well shaded gullies but their return is not so much of a surprise.
Sorry, I must have missed it. You did say “That seems to tie in with Winnipeg’s new glacier” as opposed to the snow pile collected from parking lots.
Sorry Jimbo… really. I sometimes feel like I’m being ignored these days… was actually asking if my post even appears.
I live an hour from the Rockies – to me having snow and ice nearby every day of the year is kinda normal. I’m always an hour drive away from it. If that ever ends, then and only then will I start “believing” there might be some kind of warming going on.
Per Strandberg (@LittleIceAge) August 24, 2014 at 4:53 am
Not a bad confection, explaining how warming causes glaciers. There is a theory, which first scared me a little bit in the 70’s, that warming, or a change of ocean circulation causes the Arctic to melt which then leads to greater humidity and snowfalls in northern lands. The result is the great ice sheets, but they in turn raise the albedo in the region, cooling the earth and eventually refreezing the Arctic, and eliminating the ice sheet. The cycle then repeats.
It’s not my theory but it does illustrate how you can be a warmist and still be prepared for anything.
This is the blog for one of the mountaineers helping with the survey http://abacusmountainguides.blogspot.co.uk/.
If you look at his entries for 13th August, 22nd June, 16th June you can see photos of the snow build up.
It may not look much to those who live in mountainous areas but Ben Nevis is only 1,344m (4,409ft) high and is on the coast directly in the path of the warm Gulf Stream.
I’m expecting a research vessel to get stuck on Ben Nevis any day now
So Scotland did not get the memo. The computer models email system must have had a hiccup, no big deal. Maybe they should change the title from “Global warming” to “We hate CO2 (WHCO2) . It does not matter if it is warm or cold, snow, rain, or drought, up or down or a tuba or a pizza with pepperoni, it is due to mans elicit and scandelous relationship with CO2.
R.L.Cooper
August 24, 2014 at 11:26 am
there was an article on the net the other day that the montana dakota area is going to have a very bad winter this comming year. now this is a genuine Montana stove top tail.
————————————————
Great story!
BTW is this what they mean by a positive feedback loop in climate science?
Hmm – to those saying this is not unusual:
“She said: “Not only have we gathered potentially ground-breaking geological data and significantly added to the known populations of arctic-alpine species, the team have also discovered alpine saxifrage, which has never been found on the mountain before.””
– interesting that arctic-alpine plant species are migrating south.
I thought we generally frowned on positive feedback loops.
A total non-story. Snow patches in summer in the highest Scottish peaks are not that unusual. And to extrapolate to ice ages is plain daft.
Meanwhile in Greenland it has been a heavy melt year – above average almost all summer and for two periods above 2 SDs:
http://nsidc.org/greenland-today/
@James Abbott,
Nice try, but what they found wasn’t just a “snow patch”, but amidst the snowfields something called neve, which is the first stage in the formation of a glacier. And yes, that is how ice ages start. Since the start of ice ages some 2mya, it is the preferred state of the earth, lasting some 5 to ten times as long as the interglacials. Cooling is actually something to be concerned about, as it is far more deadly. The worry about a slight warmup after the LIA is what is daft.
Possibly the most surprising thing about this is that it comes after the warmest start to a year on record for Scotland.
January-July 2014 is the warmest Jan-Jul period in the UKMO Scotland record, available here: http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/summaries/datasets
Indeed, spring (Mar-May) 2014 was the warmest spring on record in Scotland. (The UKMO temperature data for Scotland start in 1910.)
August 2014 has been slightly below the August average for the UK, but it would be indeed be surprising if it’s been cold enough to start a new ice age off in Scotland.
Ah, the Highlands! … queue Scottish weather jokes … 🙂
Bruce Cobb – see the response from DavidR confirming again that it is a non-story.
Most of the world’s glaciers are in retreat. The 2 largest ice sheets/caps (Greenland and Antarctica) are losing mass.
A few patches of compacting snow on the highest mountains in Scotland, where such patches often survive the summer, is simply not a story and it is clutching at straws to extrapolate such features into predictions about ice ages. There would need to be at a minimum regional evidence of glaciers forming/expanding before any such notion was entertained.
The UK has had one of its warmest periods on record through last winter and spring. There was ZERO snowfall across large parts of England and here in central Essex we recorded just 11 air frosts during the whole winter period, with a lowest temperature of only -3.5C.
Not only did Scotland have a warm spring, the UK as a whole had its warmest (and 3rd wettest) Jan – July period since records began in 1910.
So no ice age. Having been to Scotland many times I would be far more concerned about the midges.
James Abbott August 25, 2014 at 10:51 am
“….here in central Essex we recorded just 11 air frosts during the whole winter period, with a lowest temperature of only -3.5C.”
____________________
Scotland beat you, but only just. There were ~ 18 air frost days in Scotland this winter, the second fewest of any winter on record (started 1961). That’s about 19 days below the 1981-2010 average.
Again, hard to reconcile this with an impending ice age centred on Ben Nevis in August (but you never know!).
Source: http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/summaries/datasets
http://cairngormwanderer.wordpress.com/2014/01/24/a-glacier-in-the-cairngorms/#comment-3370
“A professor at Dundee University made the headlines this week with a claim that Coire an Lochain in the Cairngorms held a glacier as recently as the 1700s”
James Abbott
August 25, 2014 at 10:51 am
—————-
The most important by far of the world’s ice sheets, the EAIS, is growing and cooling:
http://www.antarcticglaciers.org/antarctica/east-antarctic-ice-sheet/
sturgishooper
Yes you are correct, but there is net mass loss from Antarctica as a whole.
Quote from a researcher following their paper published in Cryosphere:
“We have found that, since 2009, the volume loss in Greenland has increased by a factor of about two, and the West Antarctic ice sheet by a factor of three,” said glaciologist Angelika Humbert, one of the study’s authors. “Both the West Antarctic ice sheet and the Antarctic peninsula, in the far west, are rapidly losing volume. By contrast, East Antarctica is gaining volume, though at a moderate rate that doesn’t compensate for the losses on the other side of the continent.”
From James Abbott on August 25, 2014 at 11:26 am:
Go to: http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com/2014/08/did-greenland-w-antarctic-ice-sheet.html
Unlike you with your drive-by “Trust me!” posting style, here is presented the name of the paper with authors and with the link to the paper, and even the abstract.
From the Hockey Schtick article, go there for the many links:
Contrary to what you are trying to portray, any loss noticed so far has been so slight the projections place us far into the next planetary glaciation phase before it could be a noticeable issue, and of course it wouldn’t be an issue then.
James Abbott
August 25, 2014 at 11:26 am
1) Define “rapidly”.
2) Radar altimetry data are notoriously hard to interpret.
3) There is nothing to worry about. It would take millennia of elevated temperatures for the southern dome of the Greenland ice sheet to melt. Not going to happen before the onset of the next glaciation. It didn’t happen during the Eemian interglacial, which lasted thousands of years longer than the Holocene and was a lot warmer. The WAIS and the Antarctic Peninsula are being affected by under ice volcanic eruption.
Rewind – I am not suggesting imminent catastrophe as kadaka (KD Knoebel) and sturgishooper jump to.
The researchers’ words are her own but even she does not do that.
My point was that to extrapolate a few patches of compacted snow in the Scottish mountains with an ice age is plainly wrong.
And we can argue about rates of change forever and a day – but the facts remain that mass loss is taking place in the 2 largest ice caps and most glaciers are retreating.
Raising the spectre of an ice age is a long-ago worn out trick. There is no evidence that it is happening and no likelihood of it happening for tens of thousands of years short of some form of catastrophe that none of us can now know about.
That’s only ~400mi from the global warming fraudsters at East Anglia. Maybe they could take a ‘fact finding’ bus trip or something.
James Abbott
August 25, 2014 at 1:01 pm
Your assertion is not a fact but an out and out lie. The by far largest ice “cap”, ie “sheet” to scientists, is not melting but growing. The EAIS is gaining not losing mass.
The fact is that even at the highest possible rate of loss for the Greenland Ice Sheet it would take thousands of years for the southern dome to melt. The northern dome doesn’t melt even in the longest, hottest interglacials.
It’s not worn out to mention the coming glaciation. Nobody knows if it will happen in 3000 or 30,000 years, but it is coming. No amount of man-made GHGs can stop it. No special catastrophe is needed. Just the summer insolation at 65 degrees north latitude to return to the level at which snow fails to melt completely. This is the norm. Glacial phases last many times longer than interglacials.
James Abbott
August 25, 2014 at 1:01 pm
“Rewind – I am not suggesting imminent catastrophe”
If not, then about what are you concerned?
No imminent catastrophe; no worry. No accelerated sea level rise, no extreme weather, no crop disasters or any of the other hypothetical catastrophes supposedly associated with non-existent CACA.
James Abbott –
No one is “predicting” or “extrapolating” anything, so you are just clutching at straw men here. It was simply pointed out that this would be how an ice age would begin. Simple fact.
Furthermore, your claim that “most of the world’s glaciers are in retreat” is incorrect. Many have stabilized or begun to grow again. The Antarctic Ice Cap is gaining mass. Cooling does appear to be underway as well. Where it will lead is anyone’s guess.
sturgishooper can I suggest you go back and actually read what I said – which was that I agree the evidence is that the EAIS is growing – so how can I be telling a lie when I am agreeing with you ?
The point though is that net, the continent is losing ice mass, and so is Greenland and these are contributing to sea level rise.
milodonharlani is not concerned about sea level rise apparently – do you live well away from the coast ?
sturgishooper you advance the coming glaciation, Again, I agree with you that it will happen (unless human induced warming is so extreme as to stop it) due to the natural cycles we know about in relation to the Earth’s tilt and orbit.
However, you are very free and easy with your time-frames. Yes tens of thousand of years is the likely horizon for the next glaciation but – and I really do suggest you read the original article – a few patches of compacted snow in the Scottish highlands do not provide any guidance re a glaciation in tens of thousands of years from now, or for that matter starting in the short term, which is what some of the contributors in this threat have pointed to.
Bruce Cobb you claim it is incorrect to say that the majority of glaciers are retreating. In that case, please tell us, with references, what proportion of glaciers worldwide are:
1. Advancing
2, Stable
3. Retreating
Reblogged this on Antipodean59's Blog and commented:
Another blow to those involved in the financial rort that is aka Climate Change
Of Course, once again the site here relies on deception and misrepresentation in order to try and prove that climate change is not happening. IF you actually read the article being quoted you quickly see that the article isn’t really about the climate at all but is relating the story of a research project into recording the wildlife and the fauna that can be found on Scotland’s Ben Nevis North Face. AT no time does the article ever claim NOR does it hint at the possibility that a new “glacier” is forming. In fact the article SPECIFICALLY mentions that the snow-fields are SEMI-PERMANENT.
So how does one account for this new snow-pack? Simple, a few seasons of snow not fully melting at the TOP elevations. AND a few seasons does not make a difference in the trends towards climate change. SORRY boys but if you put your hopes on this article to destroy the REALITY of climate change, you are simply not going to get your wish.
The science from all areas of the globe support the reality of climate change, supports the cause of the climate change as being man-made, and supports the reality that this is not a simple issue of a few seasons of weather that goes against the climate change models.
A lot of fuss about nothing. As several people have pointed out snow in the gullies on the North face of Ben Nevis (and some other Scottish mountains) is normal. It is there most years. I have seen it myself often. Now if it ever disappears completely for several contiguous years…..
James Abbott
August 25, 2014 at 3:08 pm
“sturgishooper can I suggest you go back and actually read what I said – which was that I agree the evidence is that the EAIS is growing – so how can I be telling a lie when I am agreeing with you ?
The point though is that net, the continent is losing ice mass, and so is Greenland and these are contributing to sea level rise.”
You said that the two “ice caps” were losing mass. The Greenland, Antarctic Peninsula & West Antarctic Ice Sheets are possibly losing mass, but if so only because of volcanic activity. Sea ice is setting records all around Antarctica. The amount of ice in all other ice sheets & glaciers (also rivers, lakes, streams, ponds, etc.) pales in comparison with the EAIS, which contains some 55% of the planet’s fresh water. The WAIS holds about another six percent.
“milodonharlani is not concerned about sea level rise apparently – do you live well away from the coast ?”
I do live near the coast about half the year. Sea level rise is not a concern. Its rate has slowed lately. If Prince Albert Gore isn’t worried, why should I be?
“sturgishooper you advance the coming glaciation, Again, I agree with you that it will happen (unless human induced warming is so extreme as to stop it) due to the natural cycles we know about in relation to the Earth’s tilt and orbit.”
Any warming from human GHGs will never be enough to stop the next glaciation. There is no evidence of man-made warming, however. Models predicting it have been laughably wrong. Measured, “adjusted” GASTA (despite cooking the books) is now outside even the error bars of the vast majority of GCMs.
“However, you are very free and easy with your time-frames. Yes tens of thousand of years is the likely horizon for the next glaciation but – and I really do suggest you read the original article – a few patches of compacted snow in the Scottish highlands do not provide any guidance re a glaciation in tens of thousands of years from now, or for that matter starting in the short term, which is what some of the contributors in this threat have pointed to.”
It is a fact that thousands of years would be required to melt even the most vulnerable part of the Greenland Ice Sheet, as happened about 400,000 & 800,000 years ago. The next glaciation could come in anywhere from thousands to tens of thousands of years. No one knows, although we can project Milankovitch cycles far into the future. I’m not free & easy. Science simply doesn’t know. If you extrapolate from the past 3000 years of global cooling, you soon get back to a big ice age. If you look at orbital eccentricity, it could be tens of thousands of years.
Brian
August 25, 2014 at 3:54 pm
The climate changes all the time. There is no evidence to support the proposition that humans are responsible for observed climatic changes of the past century or since 1950 or 1877, whatever start date you cherry pick. Nothing out of the ordinary has happened in the past 100 years to support the contention that climate change is primarily due to human activities. Science can’t even conclude whether the net effect of human influence, if any, is to warm or cool the planet, but in any case is so negligible as to be unmeasurable.
Mean 1977, year of the big shift in the PDO.
Anthony: The new format:
The font size for names is too large, and font for comments is too small.
I don’t mind struggling to read the names but it is too much for the meant of the messages.
Thanks
Crispin in Waterloo
To Milodonharlani-
it is simple fact that the climate change that is occurring now is NOT a simple action of normal climate shifts. In fact the science is rather straightforward that this period of shift is Anthropogenic.
See Link @ http://www.global-greenhouse-warming.com/anthropogenic-climate-change.html
AND rather than being so negligible ass to be unmeasurable, you might want to look at the following scientific sources as well as the academic sources that disagree with you on that fact.
See link @ http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/
The data is in fact settled that humans are the primary source of the climate’s change and that the present change is NOT in the normal range of a normal climate swing that does indeed happen from time to time.
I’d like to know if neve formed during the 70’s. you know, back when the alarmists were screeching ice age.
I think you’ll find that this has happened before in the past 30 years and that what is ‘multiyear ice’ actually was a couple of years old and then melted.
Neve forms quickly in Scotland due to the frequent oscillation of temperatures on the mountains around the zero point. Their altitude means that below-zero is frequent in winter and early spring, but their proximity to the Gulf Stream also sees regular SW gales raise temperatures markedly. It is precisely this freeze-thaw cycle feature which makes Scotland in general and Ben Nevis in particular such a mecca for ice climbing in winter. Furthermore, the strong winds to be found in the Scottish mountains can concentrate snow fall into gullies and corries to the lee side of the prevailing winds, which can often see 20ft of snow ending up on one aspect whilst almost none at all on the opposite one. These features explain why Scotland is susceptible to small pockets of unmelted snow in the summers of snowy winters.
Winter 2014 was almost unprecedented in the past 30 years for the amounts of snow which fell on the Scottish mountains, with snow on up to 100 consecutive days from late November through to early March. As a result, it is hardly surprising that this year sees snow in the NE facing gullies in August. Widespread snow was found even in corries on the Isle of Skye in mid summer in 1994, another season where unusually large snowfalls took place (the only year other than 2014 I am aware of when ski lifts remained closed some days not due to lack of snow but due to the lifts being buried).
So, I would revisit this story in 2015 and 2016 and see if the ‘multi year snow patches’ are in fact multi-year or whether they are merely neve from a particularly snowy winter which melts when the subsequent ones are closer to the long-term mean in terms of snowfall.
It is, however, the case, that Ben Nevis, Ben MacDhui and Braeriach are the places to look for signs of a return of glaciers in Scotland, they combining altitude, NE-facing corries and gullies free from direct sunlight for months in winter and levels of precipitation sufficient to trigger permanent snowpacks in periods of unusually snowy winters, unusually cool summers or both.
[Altitude (of Scotland, or of the mountains in Scotland?) or Latitude? Or both? .mod]
wws August 24, 2014 at 6:47 am
A bit off topic, but in the “you knew it was going to happen” department:
Riots in Ferguson caused by Climate Change!!!
I trust this has been added to the watch list?
Brian
August 25, 2014 at 10:25 pm
Did you read any of your links?
None of them provides a single shred of evidence supporting your baseless assertions. If you imagine that evidence in support of your contentions & conjectures exists, please present it yourself. Thanks.
Besides which, consensus science is not science. As the late, great Dr. Michael Crichton observed, “If it’s consensus, it’s not science. If it’s science, it’s not consensus”.
The hypothesis of CACA has been repeatedly falsified. Indeed, it was born falsified. If it stood the test of the scientific method, its charlatan purveyors wouldn’t need to try to hide data & silence skeptics, ie real scientists.
rtj1211
August 25, 2014 at 11:30 pm
For the Moderators:
Altitude of Ben Nevis: 4,409 feet AMSL
Latitude of Ben Nevis: 56°47′49″N.
Were there glaciers in the mountains of Scotland as recently as the mid-19th century?
http://www.edwardboyle.com/blog/?p=2496
Discusses two recent papers on Scottish glaciers in the latter Holocene, to include the LIA.
Following upon what rtj1211 penned.
The snow patches that survive from one season to the next have been studied/recorded for quite some time. Dr. Adam Watson started in 1947. Since before the Internet (you won’t find his work in the Internet). He co-authored a book “Cool Britannia – Snowier times in 1580-1930 than since” (published 2011).
More recently other people are taking over and continuing his work. Observers ranging over the more wilder places of Scotland have added other patches which were previously unknown.
Sometimes a patch will make it through a series of summers. Sometimes they don’t. Sometimes they are bigger. Sometimes they are smaller.
Anyone interested in what the last winter on the Ben was like would do well to visit the Scottish Avalanche Information Service (SAIS) and look at the blog related to Lochaber. Plenty of pictures of impressive cornices (some in the process of fracturing).
Also related is this presentation – http://www.rmets.org/events/scotlands-semi-perennial-snowfields
Note the use of ‘semi-perennial’.
If anyone has more information as to what gullies on the Ben held these (hold these) bits of neve or photographs of the same it would be useful. rjt1211’s reference to SW gales is an indication as to the orientation of these snow patches (generally in NE-facing gullies or faces).
I’m not sure whether the bergschrund reported by the Beeb are actually randkluft. The title ‘bergschrund’ can be and has been used for both, although the formation of them are down to different mechanics. If randkluft-like then a dousing of warmish rain will work away at there attachement to gully walls and they could well detach before the first snows of the season. If randkuft-like could they be remnants of large cornices that failed to detach?
Surprise ‘glaciers’?
But the first snow of the season is only days away ….