Here’s something out of left field (literally) and almost too good to be true, but it really is. Get this: 17 news organizations, including NPR, WaPo, AP, now have grown a spine and filed an amicus brief (see download below) to OPPOSE in court Michael Mann’s effort to keep his UVa CLIMATEGATE-related e-mails secret.
Basically, Mann’s attempt at hiding his emails of work done on public funds and time from public view has backfired, and now is a story that has “legs” in reporter parlance. From Columbia Journalism Review:
Strange bedfellows: ‘Climate change deniers, newspapers partner in a FOIA fight’
Public information laws have forged an unlikely team in Penn State climate scientist Michael Mann’s quest to keep his emails private
‘Organized by the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press, 17 news organizations, including National Public Radio, Dow Jones, and The Washington Post, submitted an amicus brief in November, supporting the group’s rights to Mann’s emails.
A verdict is expected soon in one of Mann’s cases, a trial winding through the Virginia courts that, oddly, pits him against the interests of the press. Mann is challenging the American Traditions Institute in court—it has since changed its name to the less charged “Energy & Environment Legal Institute”—after the group attempted to obtain access to his email through a FOIA request. Mann argues that his emails constitute “proprietary information,” a special exemption granted to research institutions under Virginia state law. But after an appellate court issued a strong finding, broadly defining “proprietary information” in a way that would make almost any university document—and potentially government documents—exempt from public release, the press took notice.
“By defining an exemption to the Virginia Freedom of Information Act (‘VFOIA’) as broadly as the lower court has done, this Court Would be, in effect, removing almost all public documents from the ambit of the records law,” reads the brief. By exempting Mann’s emails from public release, the group argues, the court is setting what journalists see as a dangerous precedent—making it much more difficult to gain access to public records.’
See more at: http://www.cjr.org/the_observatory/michael_mann_versus_the_press.php?page=1
Here is the page that defines the interest, note the list of heavy hitters.
Basically what has happened is that journalists are afraid that if Mann wins, it will set a legal precedent that will be used to restrict the ability of the press in future issues where work products and emails discussing research are needed for journalist investigations, but will be made off limits. So, they are going to throw Mann under the bus to keep their FOIA ability intact.
IMHO, the Mann’s days are numbered as a hero of the climate movement.
Read the amicus brief for yourself: ATI-v-UVA-RCFP-amicus (PDF)
ADDED: And it’s a strange place now for some news outlets to find themselves in, particularly the Washington Post. This (absurdly detached) blast from the past below reminds us how these outlets may act out with their editorial positions, but these aren’t always harmonious with their lesser-advertised legal postures. (h/t to Chris Horner of ATI who’s been fighting this fight for a very long time.)
Here we go, here we go, here we go…
“Proprietary information?”
What’s he selling?
A man with nothing to hide never tries this hard to hide it.
pottereaton says:
March 17, 2014 at 7:58 pm
BINGO! It most certainly is a product, complete with customers and a secret sauce so proprietary it may surpass legendary Coca-Cola’s recipe. Now if we could just figure out what the hell is in it.
Let’s say, just for the sake of arguement, that MM’s Emails contained, shall we say, “blue toned” (profane) comments about other researchers, or (heavens, could we imagine) the “skeptics”…Let’s say he might consider them “embarrasing”. Would ANYONE argue that is a good reason to “shield” them?
Can I give you a HINT? FOR almost 30 years now (reaching back to an Early Email I had access to through the DARPA Net)…EVERY knowledgeable person in the PRIVATE sector, PRESUMED the Email could be (eventually) seen by ANYONE. And, with “private” employers, the WRONG useage could lead to a “justification for termination”.
Now, as such, MY communications for more than 30 years have always been ABOVE BOARD, civil, and without blemish. NO EMOTION ALLOWED! Would I cut MM any slack? No, if found to contain “offensive” material, personal attacks, “vitrol” of any sort, I’d say that TERMINATION would be appropriate. AND, indeed, questioning past “payments” might even be in order.
Tsk! As my recently departed Mother would say—a harsh judgement indeed.
This is a national deal. Here in North Carolina, Gene R. Nichol of the UNC School of Law is trying to keep his email under wraps too. He’s the guy who tried to be head dude at William and Mary and in so doing tried to remove the cross from the chapel, remember? Anyway, he’s back, using this post at UNC to do lots of political work, or so it alleged, and there is a battle to get his email released BEFORE they are deleted.
A mann with his head in the sand, and a wart on science, may he be swept away by the strong tides of freedom.
Hide the decline. Hide the asinine.
The wheels that grind finely are turning again. What an interesting coalition. I would not want to be on the wrong side of that. Or Steyn.
Perhaps there is hope for mankind and sanity.
Anthony and WUWT have a lot to do with this.
If relentless pressure was not kept up, Mann might have skated…
Kudos to Anthony and all the contributors who helped bring this about.
Everyone deserves credit. With sunshine, the truth will emerge.
Max Hugoson says:
March 17, 2014 at 8:09 pm
“Let’s say, just for the sake of arguement, that MM’s Emails contained, shall we say, “blue toned” (profane) comments about other researchers, or (heavens, could we imagine) the “skeptics”…Let’s say he might consider them “embarrasing””
“Now, as such, MY communications for more than 30 years have always been ABOVE BOARD, civil, and without blemish.”
Well said Max. Only a fool would say anything in an email that they would not want on the front page.
I can see the hockey team falling apart and stabbing each other in the back when the emails come out.
I can’t take the obsessive MSM 24/7 conspiracy theories about the disappearance of the Malaysian 777 airplane anymore. So I turn on The Weather Channel to watch the pretty snow storms. They’re up to the letter X now. I wish MSM would deviate from the current distraction and talk about Michael Mann CLIMATEGATE-related e-mails secrets? Like that will happen.
The original FOIA requests by Steve McIntyre and others received the high hat from Jones and Mann and these were the first shots fired in this battle for the truth. Much of the skeptical momentum arose from the disgusting behavior of the climate community in response to legitimate scientific inquiries. MSM was happy to look the other way while their heroes dissembled and evaded. Now that their ox is being gore They Are Offended and Insulted.
Could it possibly be true that the MSM are turning on these FOIA avoiding creeps?
………… color me doubtful. 🙁 (unfortunately)
I wonder if Mann is trying to hide derogatory remarks he made about his supporters?
Things got quite bitchy sometimes in the Climategate archive – could be there is a lot more where that came from.
Didn’t those same news organizations vilify the Republican AG for going after the same records?
Keep a close eye on the players in this one. Since they do support Mann, they’re very likely to seek some kind of “consent decree” that lets him keep the e-mails secret while avoiding setting the precedent the reporters don’t want.
Jean Parisot wrote:
Indeed they did. And kept well hid
That during the election
They hadn’t shared that they’d prepared
This brief. Such misdirection!
Please note the date. When they, irate,
Attacked Ken Cuccinelli
They had to hide they’d joined his side —
Those folks of yellow belly.
===|==============/ Keith DeHavelle
Oh the irony.
So now the presstitutes have clued in, no access for the bill paying public, also means no access for the fawning media. Oopes, after all the natter about evil citizens harassing those nice government employees over what they did on tax payers time.
If you demand privacy, get a Private Job.
Parasites all seem blind to their dilemma, the desire to do as they please, sate every whim, while being on the public payroll.
Must be some other reason all public employees have all those regulations, codes of conduct and detailed responsibilities.
Over on Michael Mann’s Facebook page he has posted this story – presumably he knew this already. It is a puzzle to me why he posted this story. Perhaps Mike feels he needs support and sympathy.
I have kept the commenters’ names private.
J (A 350.org organizer) We already knew the press had done more harm than good when it came to their non-reporting of climate change as they play the useless stenographers role of “he said, she said,” but now we know that deep down at the top dog level they are also part of the problem and not part of the solution. I guess if Pearl Harbor happened in 2014 the headline would be “Some Say Japanese Hawaiian Visit Good For US Economy – Media Files Suit To Request FDR’s Secret Memos”
Michael E. Mann Thanks J, thanks E bold added
E (A nurse) So many rights are being chipped away at this time by those with their own greedy agendas. AFP, CU, PBS partial takeover by Koch’s; multiple others including gas and oil industry; corrupt politicians. Unfortunately, they have so much more money than we have so we depend on ourselves and strong professional scientists ( looking at you Mike, and the others who are willing to step up.) We know we can depend on you and please know that we are working hard to share the load. Right now,we are fighting the DEP here in PA but you won’t see it in the news. So we will just keep getting louder. This fight you are involved with regarding privacy rights needs to be widely published. Finding owners of media who allow it is a little difficult right now.
Endorsing these odd comments will not endear him to journalists.
There is far more at stake here than climate science emails and Mann’s long-ago discredited work. Mann has been an employee of government, first in Virginia and now in Pennsylvania, for a long time. And a secretive one, as Steve McIntyre found out. He’s used his position and access to government funding to build a career largely funded by taxpayers. If he is granted privileges that excuse him from government oversight of his work, then what is to stop any employee of government anywhere to demand the same thing? We’ve already seen that government employees (ever since the Clinton Administration) are finding ways to hide their email contacts, the prime example being the head of the EPA who emailed VIPs (Very Ideological People) in her address book by use of a bogus account named after her dog.
So the upcoming decision is an important one, and if goes in favor of Mann, I would hope it gets appealed all the way to SCOTUS.
This is not new. The Reporters Committee and news organizations’ brief was filed last November and reported at the time.
REPLY: No dispute there, but it is just now being talked about in the climate blogosphere. Somehow, it didn’t get noticed then – Anthony
Eric Worrall says:
March 17, 2014 at 8:39 pm
I wonder if Mann is trying to hide derogatory remarks he made about his supporters?
———————————–
I would guess that that is the least of it. His friends will forgive him. The law, the public, and his enemies will not if he’s 1. broken the law; 2. deceived the public: and 3. attempted to damage his enemies in substantive ways.
I hope the media don’t already have a ‘judge’ to handle this. If they don’t, happiness abounds.
The CJR article is surprisingly slanted towards Dr. Mann, including the liberal use of ‘deniers.; For that, they are taking a beating in the comments. It’s hard to believe that reporter Fitts is not aware that this is a derogatory term.
It’s like an “army of ones” is becoming armies of many arising from the ground in search of the truth. There is no central command, just common goals in some battles. Victory rests with the truth. It will be won!
How slimed to hide their Amicus is this case until the elections are over. Most legal participants want sunshine on their filings from the beginning–no delays.
David Sanger says:
March 17, 2014 at 9:10 pm
===================
This is the first I’ve heard of it.
Anthony, thanks for bringing this to my attention.
What’s a climate change denier ? Does anyone know one ?
Oh yeah, silly me – Michael Mann.
This was more timely that I thought …
https://twitter.com/SemperBanU/status/445641935055642624
The mega-whiney Mann fears the opening of an enormous bottle of his own creation…. This is gonna be GREAT.
Soooo, maybe we finally get to see some of these precious work product emails? Expect to see compromise where third party is chosen to redact emails of purely private nature. How that balance is struck may determine whether there is anything of interest made public.
. . . gee, I was expecting to see a comment at the end of the post along the lines of , ” . . meanwhile, popcorn futures explode EVEN MORE ! ! ! You might say as far as popcorn futures go, It’s BETTER than we thought ! ! ! ” 🙂 🙂 🙂
. .Such fun this all is . .! ! ! Who needs any TV dramas or sitcoms . .? ! ? 🙂 🙂
Anthony,
How did this come to your attention? The certificate of service is dated Nov 12th 2013, so it’s at least 4 months old. The news outlets involved in the amicus brief have certainly kept quiet about it.
REPLY: it was an item on Twitter today. – Anthony
Could this trial turn out to be the Warmistas’ Stalingrad. Before Stalingrad, the Nazis never had a defeat: after Stalingrad, they never had a victory.
Micheal Mann’s chances in Court are going to look like an inverse hockey stick and consequently so will his his professional reputation. R.I.P. for both.
In response to:
A verdict is expected soon in one of Mann’s cases, a trial winding through the Virginia courts that, oddly, pits him against the interests of the press. Mann is challenging the American Traditions Institute in court—it has since changed its name to the less charged “Energy & Environment Legal Institute”—after the group attempted to obtain access to his email through a FOIA request. Mann argues that his emails constitute “proprietary information,” a special exemption granted to research institutions under Virginia state law.
What does a ‘scientist’ have to hide? Is science flexible?
This is an important issue on many levels. A free and active press is necessary to find the truth and to stop climategate type scientific corruption and political/industrial corruption. There is a similar problem in medical research were companies have a financial incentive to manipulate research results.
Trillions of dollars has been spent on green scams, justified in part by Mann’s hockey stick analysis.
It appears Mann has something to hide. If he does not have something to hide then make the correspondence concerning his public funded research available.
Keith DeHavelle 8:58pm
Nice, solid meter, unusual rhymes, deep thought. What’s not to like.
Eugene WR GAllun
Steyn’s latest, which includes the news that Mann has moved to dismiss his counterclaims:
http://www.steynonline.com/6178/defaming-for-beginners
Good stuff.
Mann overboard! Who knows, there may be more brewing under the surface here. Remember, the mainstream is fickle, and if they smell blood in the water on any particular aspect of this issue, they will turn on Al Gore, the IPCC, or each other in a heartbeat, just to save their own skins. They still love ambush journalism, especially if there is no way out for the victim. When it comes to shifting the blame for shoddy reporting, no worries, since one news outlet can always say “we thought that other outlet did their fact-checking, we only reported what they said….”
Steyn’s latest is indeed good stuff.
The really odd thing to me is that Mann’s lawyers’ prose is just so, well, juvenile. Totally apart from the essential merits or lack thereof. They can’t even string together the semblance of a logical argument.
Oh yeah, I disagree with Steyn on warming by the way, but the leading fanatics on warming want to suppress dissent by suits and that really ticks me off.
Steyn’s latest is indeed good stuff.
The really odd thing to me is that Mann’s lawyers’ prose is just so, well, juvenile. Totally apart from the essential merits or lack thereof. They can’t even string together the semblance of a logical argument.
Oh yeah, I disagree with Steyn on warming by the way, but the leading fanatics on warming want to suppress dissent by suits and that really ticks me off.
Noticeably absent from the listed FOIA-filing news organizations is the NYT … “All the News That’s Fit to Print.”
Apparently, truth underlying MM’s publicly funded climate change work isn’t “fit to print”.
Is it is, or is it not?
I am genuinely surprised by this. What a good feeling!
Considering Mikey’s tenaciousness, I’m going to be shocked to find any emails still left on a server to discover.
Max Hugoson says:
March 17, 2014 at 8:09 pm
“Now, as such, MY communications for more than 30 years have always been ABOVE BOARD, civil, and without blemish.”
—————–
I’m with you. I have always treated email as a public document. There have been times I really wanted to blast someone through email. I would write out what I wanted to say, walk away for a cup of coffee, come back to the computer and think “do I want this in the public record” then delete email.
Either Mann’s emails contain juicy information, or his paranoia is blocking them on principle in which case there might not be anything worth reading.
I don’t want to cause Mann any concern but Climategate III is still lurking out there somewhere. But he should already know that. I can hear the sound of him pulling out his hair.
Climategate III is mute because nobody with the password has a pair, to draw a phrase from the current post. Too bad it wasn’t given to me as if that had happened the world would have it now. That is an advantage granted those of us who have no expectation of seeing another birthday. Never misunderestimate the fearlessness of motivated senior citizens. There are some jobs nobody else can get done.
REPLY: Hey, “dp” you can have the right to complain about “nobody with the password has a pair” here when you put your own name to your words. Otherwise kindly STFU. Basically there’s nothing new in CG III that hadn’t already been covered in CGI/II. Megabytes of mundane stuff, much like NSA flypaper. The important stuff has been extracted. Dumping the whole file on the net won’t help anybody. Tough noogies if you don’t like the situation but that’s the reality. – Anthony
Hopefully these e-mails will not have been deleted, if not they will show the lies and bigotry that have beset AWG proponents since the almost 18 year pause in GW. Mann will have to decide if deleting them will cause him more harm than having to reveal the contents, since this has been going on for four months he had plenty of time to think and act. Could anyone please tell me if a court action has been started, would Mann be guilty of contempt of court if he deletes the e-mails at this stage in the proceedings, or only if he does so if the court rules against him?
Mann may be disposable because of a series of papers inc. Marcott et al., so even if he is thrown under the bus the alarmists and MSM may still say there is a hockey stick regardless. There needs to be readiness for this, including education regarding the issue of splicing datasets with completely different resolutions, something that wouldn’t stand a chance of getting past peer review in scientific fields uncorrupted by special interests.
In a related matter, “the most transparent Administration in history” also seems to have a problem cooperating with FOIA requests.
They have a lot in common with one Michael Mann. They both won the Nobel Prize, too.
Fellow Yaleian says:
March 17, 2014 at 11:06 pm
Either Mann’s emails contain juicy information, or his paranoia is blocking them on principle in which case there might not be anything worth reading.
—————————————————————————————————————
In either case they’re worth seeing.
Even if there’s nothing damning in them, it’s highly unlikely that there’s really anything deserving of protection from FIOA requests. So release will, if nothing else, show what extreme lengths and how much court time he’s prepared to waste to avoid scrutiny: “You hired all those lawyers to protect this????”
“I guess if Pearl Harbor happened in 2014 the headline would be “Some Say Japanese Hawaiian Visit Good For US Economy – Media Files Suit To Request FDR’s Secret Memos”
So, Mann is suppose to be our unelected Commander-in- Chief??
Funny how things go. Maybe the Left is wondering why they are shoveling so much snow and exhaling all that carbon pollution.
Like I said in a previous post, he is on his way out. He made all the money he could off this. The next pillars to fall will be Prince Phillip and Jones.
I wonder now if the Present US Administration will step in with another Executive Order and break up another Due Process to save the State Department’s new Man-Made Global Warming Alarm initiative.
Most Sincerely,
Paul Pierett
nicholas tesdorf:
At March 17, 2014 at 9:52 pm you ask
No, the analogy is not as you suggest, and the ‘war’ to stop the AGW-scare is nearer its end than you suggest (perhaps because your account of WW2 is mistaken).
This response of the MSM is the ‘Kursk’ of the AGW-scare.
H1tler never had a defeat before the battle of El Alamein and had no victory after it.
AGW proponents never had a defeat before the Copenhagen CoP and have had no victory after it.
Montgomery won the Second Battle of El Alamein which was from 23 October – 11 November 1942 and on 10 November 1942 at the Lord Mayor’s Luncheon at the Mansion House, London, Churchill said of it
Australia and Canada have acted to defend against the AGW scare following the Copenhagen CoP. This is similar to the resistance of the Battle of Stalingrad (23 August 1942 – 2 February 1943) which provided a slow but certain halt to any advance of H1tler’s forces.
The battle of Kursk was from July 5 to August 23, 1943 and destroyed the remaining military might of the Naz1s who were then systematically driven back to Berlin. If promoters of the AGW-scare lose support of the MSM then they lose all of their strength because the scare is refuted by behaviour of the real world and by empirical science. This thread is discussing the ‘Kursk’ of the AGW-scare: the ‘bunker’ of the CRU at UEA awaits the leaders of the scare.
Richard
I have always wondered why Mann has needed to use a baseball bat to defend his hockey stick…?
The bottom line is this:
If you work for government, or a quasi-government organisation, in a strategic or diplomatic position, you are obviously entitled to privacy. The same applies if you have commercially, or financially, sensitive information.
However, if none of the above applies and it is your choice to make yourself a high profile spokesman for a controversial subject in which you are mostly funded (having your nest feathered) by the taxpayer, then you need to be squeaky clean and totally open.
If you choose to try and hide data, information, processing techniques and your communications on publicly funded servers, then the only conclusion must be that you have something very bad to hide.
“Something very bad to hide” can mean many things, but in this instance probably means slagging off ones colleagues and/or data manipulation (and subsequent dodgy interpretation) on a scale which would make even the ‘climate scientist’ fraternity squirm with embarrassment.
18 March: SMH: Peter Hannam: Food security, economy to be hit by climate change, leaked IPCC draft report shows
Global warming will displace millions of people, trigger falling crop yields, stoke conflict and cost trillions of dollars in lost economic output, a United Nations report will warn.
A draft of the report to be finalised later this month by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) and obtained by The Independent in Britain, says “hundreds of millions of people” will be forced to move because of coastal flooding and land loss as sea levels rise…
Poverty and economic shocks from climate change will have a significant impact on migration, increasing the risks of violence from protests and from civil or international conflicts, according the draft version of the report on Impacts, Adaptation and Vulnerability states…
The summary of the draft report alone runs for 76 pages, with the full 30 chapters extending for hundreds more. The draft summary notes that the number of papers on adaptation to climate change had doubled in the five years to 2010, adding to the material to be assessed by the reports’ authors.
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/food-security-economy-to-be-hit-by-climate-change-leaked-ipcc-draft-report-shows-20140318-34zpm.html
18 March: UK Independent: Tom Bawden: Official prophecy of doom: Global warming will cause widespread conflict, displace millions of people and devastate the global economy
A draft of the final version seen by The Independent says the warming climate will place the world under enormous strain, forcing mass migration, especially in Asia, and increasing the risk of violent conflict.
Based on thousands of peer-reviewed studies and put together by hundreds of respected scientists, the report predicts that climate change will reduce median crop yields by 2 per cent per decade for the rest of the century – at a time of rapidly growing demand for food. This will in turn push up malnutrition in children by about a fifth, it predicts…
AND ON AND ON AND ON…
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/official-prophecy-of-doom-global-warming-will-cause-widespread-conflict-displace-millions-of-people-and-devastate-the-global-economy-9198171.html
This just has to happen.
No doubt the emails will reveal arrogance and contempt for almost everyone, and confirm that the cause took preference over the science.
Pardon my ignorance about this subject but what makes anyone think Mann hasn’t already deleted all or most of the emails in question?
If there’s nothing ‘juicy’ in the remaining emails, he’ll sit there laughing his head off.
What am I missing?
16 March: Siberian Times: Russia gains vast new area twice the size of Crimea with ‘the energy riches of an Ali Baba’s cave’
Highly prized victory comes without a shot in anger after 13 year battle in the corridors of the United Nations.
The Siberian land mass is officially 52,000 square kilometres bigger after an enclave in the Sea of Okhotsk was recognised as part of Russia’s continental shelf. The decision comes from the UN Commission on the Limits of the Continental Shelf…
The treasure trove includes hydrocarbon resources exceeding one billion tonnes, believes Donskoy. He has described it in the past as ‘a real Ali Baba’s cave in terms of resources’, adding that access will long-term bring ‘enormous opportunities and prospects for the Russian economy’.
Moscow sent a request in 2001 for the entire continental shelf, including the Arctic shelf, which the UN rejected demanding more data and evidence that the enclave is the natural continuation of the Russian territory. The decision, released at the weekend, is a first step in a Russian campaign to claim huge new rights based on the Lomonosov and Mendeleev Ridges being extensions of the Siberian continental shelves.
If approved, Russia would gain 1.2 million square kilometres of Arctic territorial waters.
http://siberiantimes.com/business/casestudy/news/russia-gains-vast-new-area-twice-the-size-of-crimea-with-the-energy-riches-of-an-ali-babas-cave/
It appears that Mikey has overplayed his hand, and is losing his street cred. Poor baby!
I smell a rat, something too good to be true, i am betting the emails reveal nothing and the press looks good for demanding the emails.
Something wrong here, bet they did done kind of deal.
“Get this: 17 news organizations, including NPR, WaPo, AP, now have grown a spine and filed an amicus brief ”
One more sign that CO2AGW gets thrown under the bus. Similar signs in Germany: A few days ago a state broadcaster was allowed to broadcast a satire on the Energiewende, days after that the socialist vice chancellor voiced concerns about exploding energy costs.
The Empire has now run its renewables scheme, throws it under the bus to concentrate on the impending financial meltdown; concentrates forces for potential survival.
Your MSM are state-controlled; somebody gave them the order to go after Mann.
Reading of Mann’s tenacity, I’m reminded of the story of Richard Nixon’s mother. When Nixon was
battling ondrowning in the Watergate affair he told the story of his mother telling him: “Don’t you ever give up!”. On hearing this, Johnny Carson said, what she really said was: “Don’t you ever give up?”Punctuation is all…
I agree with Richard @ 2.23
Something’s burning.
Peter Miller says:
March 18, 2014 at 1:46 am
“The bottom line is this:
If you work for government, or a quasi-government organisation, in a strategic or diplomatic position, you are obviously entitled to privacy.”
No; that’s wrong and all mixed up. There’s transparency – meaning FOIA – including workplace communications; and for strategic/diplomatic stuff, secrecy, NOT privacy. No paid worker can expect PRIVACY at work. For private companies, SEC, IRS and so on might sift through stored company e-mails any time.
I am hoping that the tide is turning against academic prima donnas. I hope the ‘Sir’ paul nurse is next. I bet he requested the ‘black steam’ photo for his article.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/climatechange/10701265/Climate-change-weve-put-off-the-difficult-decisions-for-too-long.html
I think those long, CCCCOOLLDDD winter days and nights you all have been having up there in the US of A have allowed the MSM reporters to ponder over their winter boubon the possibility that … Oh my gawd..!! What if the skeptics are right!? Will that we THE story of the century thus far or what? We’ll be covering witch burnings for years! Real climate witches and wizards!
Just good old journalistic bread buttered on one side – the side of history – which is always right.
Can’t wait for the media packs to form up around all the usual suspects. Kim Kardashian – take a year or so off! The Ship of Fools may be setting sail soon.
Maybe they should also take notice of what Don Easterbrook has to say: http://iceagenow.info/2014/03/video-climate-scientist-predicts-20-years-global-cooling/
Just kill the entire scam for good.
MSM still has the power to do that.
@richardscourtney wow, I couldn’t have said it better myself.
I would argue thought that the Germans never had a realistic chance of a victory at Kursk. Same for the global warming hysterics?
@richard the press can’t let this one slide either way. Even if the emails are harmless – which is doubtful since they date back to the pre-climategate period – they have to fight back against this ruling. You’re right that if the e-mails are clean it will be carefully crafted campaign but given The Mann’s foul character clean e-mails are not in the cards. The Mann’s has always been his own worst enemy.
Oh the irony. The MSM, which has been Mann’s cheerleader for over a decade, has finally grown a pair.
Can or would Mann have deleted emails, seem to remember in the climategate emails that there was advise to delete emails.
I wonder how many roaches are going to scurry when the lights come on?
– – – – – – –
This means the MSM core leadership knew, at least since Climategate and probably much earlier than that, that Mann’s actions were detrimental to our free culture and open science.
They knew and did not speak out.
Why?
Why not say what they obviously knew.
Why?
John
So let’s see, the press demands the emails, the emails are released, the emails say nothing we do not already know- climategate, and then press headlines , Michael Mann emails confirm his hard work , blah, blah, blah,… etc.
I get really excited when i read this kind of stuff but nothing changes , just the slow grinding on of this bulldozer of a scam,.
Maybe it is another nail in the coffin.
Sorry, Anthony, you got one thing wrong. They have grown no spine. With Cuccinelli gone, there is no fear of Mann being indicted on any crimes. The new VA AG has even stated he will not prosecute law breakers as long as they believe the right way. And of course the new Governor, McAwful, is a worthless piece of clinton hangover that is going to drag the state into oblivion (sorry, got on a horse there).
The point is that there is no one to prosecute Mann or even care if he swindled the government now. The AG has already stated and demonstrated he will not uphold the laws of the Commonwealth.
pottereaton says:
March 17, 2014 at 9:14 pm
Eric Worrall says:
March 17, 2014 at 8:39 pm
I wonder if Mann is trying to hide derogatory remarks he made about his supporters?
———————————–
I would guess that that is the least of it. His friends will forgive him. The law, the public, and his enemies will not if he’s 1. broken the law; 2. deceived the public: and 3. attempted to damage his enemies in substantive ways.
———————————————
1. Fat chance!
2. Peter Gleick.
Nuf said.
cn
Montgomery won the Second Battle of El Alamein which was from 23 October – 11 November 1942 and on 10 November 1942 at the Lord Mayor’s Luncheon at the Mansion House, London, Churchill said of it
Kudos on Kursk. Biggest tank battle in history and hardly anyone knows about it.
But I have to say that 1st Alamein was a huge Allied victory (one that doomed the AK and made Alamein 2 a foregone conclusion). Kudos to the Awk(worth ten of Monty).
@Evan Jones – Actually, anyone who prefers the documentary channels over the commercial broadcast ones, probably knows about Kursk. The Military channel has run several shows about it. I found them fascinating.
I just finished a new book on the subject: Armor and Blood: The Battle of Kursk by Showalter. Very detailed and pretty balanced. Main problem I had was while there were many maps the text referenced many locations that were not on the maps. It sure seemed like the Russians had an endless supply of tanks and men.
richardscourtney says:
March 18, 2014 at 12:45 am
“This thread is discussing the ‘Kursk’ of the AGW-scare: the ‘bunker’ of the CRU at UEA awaits the leaders of the scare.”
Got a problem with WW2 analogies.
a) CO2AGW movement is not running out of resources. If anything they’re like the Soviets with limitless supply of tanks / new CGM scenarios for new scary headlines.
b) CO2AGW movement is part of the same regime the MSM are part of.
This is not a fight, it’s completely scripted.
As if on cue, Scientific American has a new article by Mikey (in Henny-Penny fashion, only 22 y from now).
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earth-will-cross-the-climate-danger-threshold-by-2036/
Paywalled, unfortunately. Words are not likely worth the virtual paper they’re written on, though.
LEt’s see: 2036 — should buy him enough time to retire and count his earnings (he hopes), before it all unravels. Does ANYONE with a built-in BS meter take this stuff seriously anymore?
Kurt in Switzerland
Kursk, the more i read about Bletchley Park the more amazed i am, they had the low down Kursk was brewing and passed on the info to Stalin though the Russians probably guessed as well. but also Bletchley located Sharnhorst and Bismark with intercepted communications before they were sunk.
… and the judge probably thought he was doing people like Mann a favour…
CJR is widely read, and probably the leading biz-focused website/webzine for U.S. journalists.
Red Alert to Scott Mandia of the so-called ‘Climate Science Legal Defense Fund’
Your very demanding fund recipient Michael E. Mann may need a lot more funds if he now engages the 17 MSM organizations that filed the amicus brief for getting Mann’s UVa emails.
You may need to tap fossilized resources now?
John
At the risk of sounding too cynical, I have a feeling that if/when these MSM groups win access to the emails, they will simply ignore/hide/bury any inconvenient details that challenge their CAGW bias.
The left sees the writing on the wall, that the GOP will keep the House and take the Senate this November, and that they need to establish credentials/history for pursuing “transparency,” for applying against new bosses.
Does anyone else here believe as I do that the reason for all these comic book journals and their comic book scientists is because of the paywall? If all public funded research (even if they take just one penny out of my pocket) was open access, we wouldn’t be so demanding that they show their work. And the bloom would be off the rose, possibly improving the lot of them overnight.
Journal articles: The New Enquirer
– – – – – – – –
Perhaps the 17 MSM organization’s amicus brief has somewhat reduced the possibility of any cherished dreams of Michael E. Mann (PSU) to either take Hansen’s old job at NASA’s GISS or to replace Pachauri as head of the IPCC.
PSU has inherited ill winds and now seems stuck in ill media memes. Are they more concerned about Mann maybe becoming untradable / unmarketable as a scientist by this MSM amicus brief in the UVa case?
Is a complete profession change imminent?
John
John Whitman says:
March 18, 2014 at 6:56 am
“Perhaps the 17 MSM organization’s amicus brief has somewhat reduced the possibility of any cherished dreams of Michael E. Mann (PSU) to either take Hansen’s old job at NASA’s GISS”
Why should Mann be a candidate for that? Gavin Schmidt continues the cooking of the temperature books splendidly. He’s been the regime’s lackay for so long now; and he’s got a climatologist beard.
“By defining an exemption to the Virginia Freedom of Information Act (‘VFOIA’) as broadly as the lower court has done, this Court Would be, in effect, removing almost all public documents from the ambit of the records law,…”
Good thing this President’s administration is the “most transparent” ever, or this would really be a problem.
/sarc
He won’t reveal any of his models, data sets, app code – he will say it is all lost or in the ‘domain’ of someone else…just watch. Not a chance in hades he will let anyone who is competent with code, logic or data models have a look at his junk.
Organic Fertilizer
This is the end of Michael Mann. No judge will rule in his favor, now. This signifies that he has no credibility left, as a scientist or otherwise. It is also a blow to the “Cause”, for their poster boy to be so publicly discredited. Mann has seen nothing yet. The worst is yet to come. The global warmers now have to pay the piper for their egregious science and their activism. It is the old bomb drill: tuck your head between your knees and kiss your ass goodbye.
Baa Humbug says:
March 18, 2014 at 2:13 am
Pardon my ignorance about this subject but what makes anyone think Mann hasn’t already deleted all or most of the emails in question?
If there’s nothing ‘juicy’ in the remaining emails, he’ll sit there laughing his head off.
What am I missing?
… Server backups, that’s what. In a large bureaucracy (like a university), it’s actually very hard to delete something beyond recovery.
If your paycheck and research dollars come from public funding, your research emails (not private), research and subsequent publications should be freely available to the public.
Pamela Gray says:
March 18, 2014 at 6:29 am
——————————————
Yes, Pamela, in a nut-shell. If everything was public there would be no hiding. But research and research funding is often a closed market.
richard says: March 18, 2014 at 4:18 am
It wasn’t that long ago (if I might borrow your text)…
The successful perpetration of a formerly unimaginable societal fraud mandates, IMHO, media collusion. Some quick notes as to John “CAGW Clarion Call” Kerry’s (like Mann, no stranger to embellished resumes) 2004 fraud and media complicity…
After reneging on his oft-made campaign pledge to “release all his records” during the campaign of 2004, it wasn’t until June 2005 that Kerry actually signed an SF180 towards that end, but it was a highly qualified one authorizing only 3 “reporters” actual access to his complete records. They were…
Stepen Braun of the LA Times – of the 3, arguably the most independent perhaps included (2 weeks later) in hopes of mitigating the obvious bias of the following 2…
Michael Kranish of the Boston Globe – a known Kerry acolyte
Glen Johnson of the Boston Globe – now senior state department adviser to (guess who?) John “CAGW Clarion Call” Kerry
To this date, none, save for these 3 reporters, have been permitted to view Kerry’s complete military records. Your pessimism is not without precedent.
Perhaps in these emails he discusses the irony that his argument for the LIA and MWP not being global could also be used to argue that modern climate change is not global. That would be golden.
– – – – – – – –
DirkH,
Schmidt seems, by his RC antics, to have an employee mentality and it seems to be his limit of perception; a insurmountable barrier to being leadership material.
Mann on the other hand does not seem to be limited by an employee mentality. Mann is limited by his ineptness at even the most basic professional integrity (see his publicized controversial emails) and his hopeless self-serving ‘victim-of-con$pira¢y’ myths (see his book).
John
Anthony – My name is Dennis Peterson and I am not in a position to accept that dumping the content onto the net is pointless because 1) that is a political view, and 2) I’ve not seen it and I’m not content to take anyone’s word for it. Such is the nature of a skeptic.
Gregg and Baa Humbug — about Mann deleting emails,
Deleted emails may not square with Climategate III. Perhaps this is what Mann is trying to hide.
dp says:
March 18, 2014 at 8:41 am
==========
DP,
Regardless of what the CG 3 emails contain their existence is a nice card to hold and be able to draw upon should the need arise to show a continuation of deception or fraud. I see no need for a full dump to the internet but like to know it could be retrieved at some point in the future.
Lying under oath could be very risky while knowing the truth could be only a few clicks away. Deleting additional emails/documents while involved in a court action could prove damaging to say the least if proof were to be presented of those actions.
Let’s just say CG 3 may keep someone honest. That seems to be an oxymoron.
“multiple others including gas and oil industry; corrupt politicians. Unfortunately, they have so much more money than we have so we depend on ourselves and strong professional scientists ( looking at you Mike, and the others who are willing to step up.)”
The “money” in AGW I believe will be in a carbon tax/carbon trading scheme…..with futures, derivative, swaps the whole shebang…..and Wall Street will again find new and even more creative means to skim that money…..either these scientists haven’t kept up with finance and markets recently or they are being disingenuous
IMO the media are beginning to see Steyn’s case as a First Amendment issue. They opposed the Obama Administration’s attack on reporters, & may support Steyn in this instance as well, while still being cheerleaders for the Democrat Party & big government on all other issues.
I just factored this “wow even msm reporters want to see micheal manns uva emails now” bit of data to my popcorn futures adjusted consumption anomaly projection computer models. And they ALL agree! There will be a sustained increase in popcorn sales and popping while the climategate emails become exposed via foia ….
bernie1815 says:
March 18, 2014 at 1:49 pm
“I just finished a new book on the subject: Armor and Blood: The Battle of Kursk by Showalter.”
In that case, do you know how many german panzers were destroyed in the Battle of Kursk?
Answer: 60.
He should watch more shows like “The Untouchables”. What happens to those the Mob protects when they become a liability?
“A Lawsuit to Far”
PS Are there FOIA request for Penn State emails?
philjourdan:
re your post at March 18, 2014 at 12:03 pm.
Better than any TV documentary is a lecture which can be obtained at Bovington. See
http://www.tankmuseum.org/
The MSM is the main ‘battle tank’ of AGW propaganda.
The Russian T34 tank was no match for the German Panzers especially the Tiger tanks. But the T34s were cheap and reliable so at Kursk the Russians threw so many T34s at the Panzers that the T34s overwhelmed their opposition. (Panzers including a Tiger and T34s drive around the arena at Bovington).
The MSM is retreating from its unconditional support of the Mann because that support has been overwhelmed by the many bloggers outraged at the Mann’s trashing of basic scientific procedures.
Richard
I think entirely too much emphasis is being placed on getting Mann’s U of V emails — thinking they will prove his MB98 paper was junk, or at least had known serious problems. Maybe, but it’s more likely nothing conclusive will be found (or nothing that hasn’t already been revealed in the ClimateGate emails).
The real problem is the so-called peer reviewed journals who accept papers which don’t archive data, code and methods, and reviewers who don’t ask for it. If a result can’t be replicated, it shouldn’t be accepted as valid.
Since most of this research is paid for by public money, the granting agencies should insist on complete archiving as a condition of accepting funds and should verify at the close of a grant that this has been done.
And US policy makers should give no weight to an IPCC report which cites papers which haven’t been fully archived.
And (as long as I am dreaming) the MSM should not give coverage to press releases about new research which likewise has not been fully archived. Or at the very least include a disclaimer to the effect:
=====================================================================
(Glad to see your name again.)
As I understand it, the German tanks were still far better, though the brand new Panthers still had “teething problems”. (Maybe I’m getting the Panther and the Tiger mixed up with what happened at Kurst.) But the Russian T34 was a very good and simpler tank and the Russians had more of them. Kind of like the US Sherman, though the T34 was a better tank than the Sherman. I read it took four Shermans to take out a Tiger but we had five Shermans.
The MSM media seems to leaving Mann to his own devices. I suspect and hope that he’s also beginning to feel the tug of the financial rug being pulled out from under him.
Did you notice amongst those 17 organizations supporting the amicus brief one ” News Corp”? Yes, that’s right, blame Rupert Murdoch. Well, for something or other!
I’d point out that the Columbia Journalism Review — whose article is horribly written and terribly reasoned — is pretty much on Mann’s side.
Gunga Din says:
March 18, 2014 at 3:36 pm
T-34/85s (with 85mm main armament) were better than most German tanks. At Kursk & thereafter, Germans had too few new medium Panther (originally Panzer V) & heavy Tiger tanks to deal with the hordes of T-34s.
Operation Citadel (Kursk offensive) was delayed repeatedly in order to build up the supply of Panthers, but when finally started, the new tanks proved highly unreliable. The big Ferdinand (as in Porsche) assault guns (or heavy tank destroyers; later called Elephants) that were also supposed to be critical to success were easily knocked out by Russian defenses because they lacked machine guns.
Hitler called off Citadel because of the western Allied landings on Sicily.
Panthers & heavy Tiger & King Tiger tanks never replaced the older Panzer IVs which remained the mainstays of German armor. T-34/85s were better than Panzer IVs. Shermans were more mechanically reliable than German, Russian or British tanks, but “brewed up” easily, so were called “Ronsons” by their unfortunate crews. Except for the Firefly variant, they were also under-gunned for the European Theater. Still, they all had radios, so were appreciated by the Russians, who received some 10,000 of them, about the same as the number of tanks the Red Army had left at the end of the war. Shermans conquered Vienna while T-34s entered Berlin.
The running gear of T-34 was inspired by the US Christie tank, which the American army in its infinite wisdom chose not to adopt.
Ferdinand (@StFerdinandIII) says:
March 18, 2014 at 7:15 am
“Not a chance in hades he will let anyone who is competent with code, logic or data models have a look at his junk.”
If it’s all the same to you, I’d rather not look at his junk; I’m out of brain bleach.
It’s about time rationality caught hold.
Mann has nothing to hide .Mann is fighting this FOIA purely on principle.(sarc)
The press has raised an issue that Manns “principle” is a BS anathema to a free society.
A free society trumps the privacy of a suspected publicly funded fraud (and pompous ass).
Liberal academics who supported Mann,sold purely on principle, are surely doing some soul searching.
Hopefully those administrators at UofV and Penn State realize they are backing the wrong unicorn.
Mark Steyn must be encouraged to see this. Perhaps he should redouble his claim for damages. I bought his books “Lights out” and “America Alone” as my contribution to his case. These are on his central theme of freedom of speech. He won a landmark case in provincial kangaroo courts (the oh so Politically Correct crusaders in provincial Human Rights Tribunals) against the Canadian Islamic Congress claims of hate speech over an article in MacLeans Magazine (news mag) – essentially an excerpt from his best selling book “America Alone”. The stunning performance resulted in the rescinding of the guts of a Canadian statute that provided the support for this assault on free speech and the books (particularly America Alone) wound up on the New York Times best seller list. Every American should read it. Its probably too late for Europe.
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=93dd37e9-a3ba-4788-84d0-7512cee8277b
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6399505-lights-out
Mann’s suit against Steyn is also free speech issue with Steyn. The way these things drag on, the chances of a bundle of emails becoming available before the court case now looks pretty good.
Disclaimer, I don’t get a commission on sales!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!MM
The press should be backing Mark Steyn as well.
Maybe the lawyers representing the press can get another check if they convince the press that Mark Steyn ,a member of the press, is being censored by a fat ugly pompous ass accused fraud.
It won’t stop the media from going to bat for mann if there’s anything damaging to him in the emails. I won’t be surprised if mann gives them a heads up on what that might be so they can get an early start on the spinning if it looks like he’ll lose.
Also media could be just putting on a pretense so they don’t look like hypocrites in the future when they want to FOI in the future in a similar arena.
Gunga Din:
Thankypu for your comment at March 18, 2014 at 3:36 pm which says to me.
Clearly, I need to explain why something on this thread was so misleading that it poses a risk which moved me to interrupt my withdrawal from posting on WUWT.
At March 17, 2014 at 9:52 pm nicholas tesdorf asked
The WW2 analogy is good, but was applied to the wrong part of that war possibly because the true importance of the Stalingrad defence was being misunderstood.
So, at March 18, 2014 at 12:45 am, I replied saying
It is also clear that my explanation –in that same post – of the answer was inadequate. So, I now write to clarify it.
WUWT has fulfilled the role of the ‘Stalingrad defence’ in the ‘war’ to defeat the AGW-scare. And the host of WUWT (i.e. AW) has excellently fulfilled the role of Kruschev in deciding how that defence will be conducted day-to-day. The ‘defence’ provided a slow but sure defeat of the limited resources possessed by the AGW-scare-mongers while nature exhausted those resources (i.e. public acceptance of the scare).
The AGW-scare is beaten. Now even the MSM is backing-off from unlimited defence of Michael Mann.
The main need now is a Churchill to assess future risks and the means to stop them.
The AGW-scare is no longer a threat to the future of the world. (After Stalingrad H1tler could not establish an empire which would spread eastward to reach the Baltic Sea). After the Copenhagen CoP the AGW-scare is certain to not establish a global Treaty..
After the Battle of Stalingrad it was essential to conduct the Normandy Invasion. Without this Second Front the Red Army would have chased the Wermacht westward and kept going until Stalin had an empire which stretched westward to reach the Atlantic Ocean. It required a Churchill to understand how an existing ally was the next great threat which needed to be prevented.
What is the threat which is to supplant the defeated AGW-scare, and how can we prevent it?
Richard
Talking of WW2 tanks etc. One of the most expensive bits of kit the Germans had in their fleet of machines was not the Tiger tank. Sure it was the most expensive to bring in to service. What was more expensive, and IMO, more interesting was the FAMO 18ton tractor. In WW2, from memory, it cost 20k-50k German Marks more to make than a Tiger tank. And it was a facinating machine.
They needed very-very-very long to wake up these “MSM”s, I just wonder where was their brain in the past decade.
Is the MSM now concerned enough to try to save the earth from being destroyed by the irrational / unscientific views of the ‘save-the-earth-from-CAGW’ cults?
You see, the MSM always needs to go on crusades for its ethical justification for existing. Now they should have a new and righteous crusade to pursue. They should have an earth saving crusade to fight against the un-scientifically based ideological crusade to ‘save-the-earth-from-CAGW’.
MSM, it is your moment of glory to fulfill your crusading destiny. MSM get to work!
John
Actually, Anthony, I have to take issue with the title: “Wow, even MSM reporters want to see Michael Mann’s UVa emails now”.
The MSM certainly want to have access as per the amicus brief, and the motivations you ascribe make sense. Even if the emails turn out to be as juicy as Climategate I, I think that the MSM would be about as unenthusiastic as they have been in the past regarding seeing (or publishing) them. I realise it’s a trivial point in editorial terms, but the end result in terms of damaging publicity for their ’cause’ would be important.
I hope I’m wrong.
Patrick says:
March 19, 2014 at 4:27 am
The US equivalent to the FAMO tractor was the 40-Ton Tank Transporter “Dragon Wagon”.
richardscourtney says:
March 19, 2014 at 3:00 am
Sorry to read that you have withdrawn from regular commenting here.
IMO the next scare has already begun, with “sustainability” as the key buzzword. IOW, it’s a blast from the past, when we were supposed to be running out of everything in the early ’70s.
===============================================================
True. I remembered reading once, after seeing your comment, that after the T34 first appeared, Germans tankers demanded a response. Some just wanted a copy of the T34 put into production. Instead the Panther was the response.
====================================================================
I don’t know. We’re some talk about the ozone “hole” pop up again. And, of course, “sustainability”.
I think right now “they” are back in “throw it against the wall and see what sticks” mode. But they haven’t quite given up on CAGW yet. “It’s cold because it’s hot” is still being bandied about. But maybe only to buy time?
Here in the US I think we can look forward to a “goal line stand” from Obama before the next election.
(So are saying the Democrats might lose control of the Senate this time just like they lost control of the House last time…though not in veto-proof numbers.)
Gunga Din says:
March 19, 2014 at 1:09 pm
If Mods will permit continued OT comments, the tank production numbers tell the story:
Panzer IV: ~8600 (worse than T-34)
Panther: ~6000 (better once teething problems overcome)
Tiger I/II: ~1800 (prone to breakdown & turret traverse too slow in King Tiger II)
T-34: ~84,000 (tanks alone, not counting thousands of SP howitzers & assault guns built on T-34 chassis)
Sherman: 49,234 (plus many more armored vehicle variants using Sherman chassis or hull)
“I don’t know. We’re some talk about the ozone “hole” pop up again.”
That should be”
“I don’t know. We’ve heard some talk about the ozone “hole” pop up again.”
(Spell-checker is great. It make’s me sound like less of an illiterate than I really am. But it doesn’t help when I spell the wrong word correctly or skip a word.8-)
Looks like Herr Mann is about to get hoisted on his own petard.
The guy is long overdue in State Penn!
http://washingtonexaminer.com/most-transparent-white-house-ever-rewrote-the-foia-to-suppress-politically-sensitive-docs/article/2545824
The rewrite came in an April 15, 2009, memo from then-White House Counsel Greg Craig instructing the executive branch to let White House officials review any documents sought by FOIA requestors that involved “White House equities.”
That phrase is nowhere to be found in the FOIA, yet the Obama White House effectively amended the law to create a new exception to justify keeping public documents locked away from the public.
I wouldn’t be betting on this White House ever letting Mann’s Virginia emails see the light of day, regardless of which lapdog media stomps it’s foot.
We should demand transparency with all research and documents. I have a take on this no one else seems to consider–if taxpayers fund research, what are the intellectual property issues regarding that research? Don’t we have a vested (by force) interest in such research?
And when I saw that CJR header, I was furious. A once respected magazine completely debased by a twit who has absolutely no background in any science (even statistics) whatsoever. She is a freaking freelance writer, as am I.