So, as WUWT readers well know, I have a different opinion about global warming.
Do you think the New York Times should endorse stabbing me (and others with similar opinions) through the heart like a vampire because I hold that opinion? See panel #4 “self destructing sabers for dispatching climate-change deniers”.
Source: http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2014/02/09/opinion/sunday/see-something-say.html?_r=2
Admittedly, this is a lame attempt at humor/satire, something we are all well familiar with applying here at WUWT. But, imagine if the tables were turned, and the cartoon depicted global warming alarmists such as Mike Mann or James Hansen in the same role? Our friends would have a collective cow. Yet, somehow, somebody at the New York Times thinks it is acceptable to suggest “dispatching” a whole class of people that hold a different viewpoint from them.
I’m waiting on I have a comment from NYT’s Andrew Revkin, who was the subject of a post yesterday, as to what he thinks about this in his own newspaper.
For the record, I don’t think global warming is a “hoax”, but it certainly has been oversold.
h/t to Steve Milloy at Junkscience.com
UPDATE: Andrew Revkin sends this comment via email:
I find the final panel in this cartoon on uses for surplus icicles to be the antithesis of humor. But some artists, like some bloggers, seem to thrive on edge pushing. Andres Serrano (“Immersion: Piss Cross”) comes to mind. There are many others. We are quite a species.
UPDATE2: Revkin has added some additional thoughts at his tumblr blog:
It’s worth saying more. This cartoon is right up there with the “pretty edgy” 2010 climate-campaign video showing a teacher blowing up students who didn’t sign on to cut their carbon footprints.
Both are great attention getters, and were utterly stupid if the goal was do accomplish anything other than inflaming and dividing people on an important issue. And that would be a reprehensible goal.
I don’t get the Department of Commerce connection, though.
[snip – let’s not – Anthony]
…oh, and it’s just one more example of “global warming nazi-ism”.
Roy I was thinking of your stance when I wrote this post, I’m saving commentary on it for a future post.
Our distinguished host says:
“I’m waiting on a comment from NYT’s Andrew Revkin,”
__________________________
That echoes the thinking of many of us, here.
How about it, Andrew Revkin? Put up, or shut up.
That’s the crux of this whole divisive issue. There are no climate change ‘deniers’. I prefer ‘realists’, which is in fact, what we are.
I thought that was a subtle jab at the Warmists. hmmm
In all fairness, it does appear in the Opinion section, in the “See something Say something” section in which things from round about are quoted. They are not meant to represent the opinion of the Editors of the NY Times, but a round up of opinions being expressed elsewhere.
Reblogged this on What Say you and commented:
Unbelievable, and frightening. I understand the power of the propaganda engine that surrounds the AGW religion, but this literally has shades of the horrific satiric cartoons that ran in many German papers daily from 1933 to 1945.
@Roy Spencer:
I think the connection to the Dept. of Commerce is a new “Cash for Clunkers” program aimed at Al Gore and John Kerry, people trying to save the earth by flying around it, but in old inefficient airliners that should be traded in for newer, Greener models.
Greenshirts.
Two final requests:
1) All the warm mongers must come and dance on my grave
2) I want to be buried at sea
Religious zealots have no moral boundaries. Climate alarmists are only interested in imposing their beliefs on people no matter the cost.
pat says:
February 23, 2014 at 8:11 am
I thought that was a subtle jab at the Warmists. hmmm
__________________________
Can you cite any other example of satire where it is appropriate to call for the death of those with a different viewpoint? Maybe a modern day Leni Riefenstahl could make a short comic/satirical video of such an example. Would Andrew Revkin find such satire apropos?
The USPS doesn’t seem to know about 1042 American Way, I expect to find some cute hack, I guess the authors only do crude hacks.
Those are pretty lame icicles. The best I’ve seen are on western New York farm houses with lousy insulation and a little lake effect snow every night. Once the reach the ground they’re a lot less dangerous.
As the Russians say (but in Russian):
“In every joke, a little bit is joke and the rest is true.”
Did ya’ll notice that the guy being stab with the icicle is a caricature of a fat cat banker/rich person?
Notice the cigar popping out of the “climate-change denier(‘s)” mouth as he is stabbed with the icycle. A not so subtle attempt to connect climate skepticism to opposition to the government report on tobacco in the 60s.
The cartoon is further proof that Thermophobes either have a warped sense of humor or don’t have one at all.
I can see Pat’s point though. It starts off with what to do with ice “icicle surplus”
Andrew Harding: may I please have a funeral pyre using discarded tree rings, the scrifice of a couple of polar bears and some Minnesotans singing a medley? Not otherwise.
It is so beautifully incoherent that I see it as a jab at the warmistas also. Then again there is nothing so “tolerant” as the frenzied political left trying to destroy their opponents along with all our enumerated liberties. Anything is possibly I guess.
It isn’t funny, its dehumanizing to depict murder. It reminds me of the awful anti-Jewish humor/propaganda cartoons of NAZI Germany or the old Soviet Union. Seriously, the victim here doesn’t have a human nose like the other people depicted in the cartoon, he has a pig-like nose. Dehumanize your enemies, its always the same. They aren’t people, they’re dogs, pigs, vermin, etc. “You can kill them, they aren’t like you at all.” It is interesting that they use “denier” so deliberately and so casually when the term is loaded with monstrous dishonesty.
When you say “global warming” isn’t a hoax, do you speak of the planet warming per say, or “Global Warming” as a socio-political narrative? I’d have to say you say the latter is true: CAGW as a organizational phenomena a la Al Gore/David Suzuki, IS a hoax.
GW is a falsely presented prediction of calamity on a planetary scale based on current human industrial activity, which purpose it is to deindustrialize and deconsumerizee the modern world while limiting the industrial and, hence, consumerist growth on the non-First World countries. It comes from a Malthusian belief in limited resources already at the stretching point for the non-human biosphere. It comes from a quasi-liberal, “enlightened” view of single-malt drinkers in a club discussion that others wastefully and appreciatively spend and play with the bounty that only sensitive spirits understand lies about them. CAGW comes from a place that says central government control, while not perfect, is better than individual control because even if its reasons are wrong, its final objective – a Rousseauian world in which the lions lie with the lambs – justifies its strong-willed actions.
The GW narrative, not any warming of the planet, IS a hoax foisted on the caring people of the world. It is a hoax just as the Weapons of Mass Destruction was a hoax foisted on the anxious people of the world: as long as everyone gets on board and the enemy is defeated, the truth is irrelevant.
They seem stuck with the Warm = Cold meme, even making fun of it.
If it was warm why was there so much snow and the resultant large crop of icicles ?
I thought a long time ago that their inability to control the overselling of the message would lead them to make more and more ludicrous statements each outdoing the other until they were so far away from reality that even an unobservant person couldn’t help but see it. Maybe we’re there ?
I also agree with Anthony, there has been some effect from AGW. We can then argue the extent of the issue, by my rule of thumb measure I’d say the AGW effect of CO2 has been overstated by a factor somewhere between 5 X and 10 X reality. The climate is nowhere near as sensitive as the alarmists predicted.
I also find nothing funny about violent and derogatory cartooning of one’s enemies on the opposite side of a debate. It happens though. Does it get my vote? Does it convince me of the argument? Not in the least. I much prefer classical debate. That this form of discourse is not a required element of high school curriculum escapes me. Except that maybe, just maybe, the political party in power does not want its young citizenry so educated.
‘incitement’
Kip Hansen says:
February 23, 2014 at 8:12 am
In all fairness, it does appear in the Opinion section, in the “See something Say something” section in which things from round about are quoted. They are not meant to represent the opinion of the Editors of the NY Times, but a round up of opinions being expressed elsewhere.
———-
Kip, please alert us non-NYT readers when the NYT reproduces some non-CAGW humor, or even opinion. In all fairness, there is plenty of it around.
Remember that the Nazi’s ran advertisements and cartoons equating Jews with rats to incite the people against them, and to soften public reaction when Government officials started moving against the Jews.
Obama and his politikers are doing the same thing, using our left leaning socialist MSM to convey the message of hate and contempt towards CAGW skeptics.
It’s time to call these Global Warming Nazi’s out for who they really are!
Anthony, it looked like a typical Republican I can’t stand either.
Anyway. Historically, the New York City Harbor froze over in 1780 as Gen Washington sweated another Winter with possible British attack. That was only 80 years After the restart of sunspot activity of the Mini Ice Age.
In 1911, Niagara Falls froze over during a cooling period. There was only one Tropical Storm in 1913 or 1914.
We can’t convince these stupid People to study the last million years of Ice Ages. It is better for them to experience severe Winters, longer Winters, deadly black outs a d more blackouts due to Obama’s Closure of power plants and breached hydro dams.
Sooner or later the Sodoms and Gomorrahs of today will feel the Almighty Judgement as a reminder of Who keeps things working around here.
Paul
doubt its meant as a joke. The ‘Co2 deathstar is coming to kill us all’ tyrants have to occupy and set up a curfew on the truth. The greens in the uk demanded anyone who was not a co2 warmist believer be removed from any government post.
The first people you have to put in the gulags are the writers, artist and scientists lest their counter revolutionary statements confuse the ordinary people from their revolutionary destiny. Let them rant. Its much more powerful to just keep presenting evidence there is no co2 deathstar.
So our children won’t know what snow is, but they’ll still have icicles?
pat‘s suggestion that the cartoon may be a subtle jab at warmists might be true, but how many of the NYT readers would fail to see the juxtaposition? In balance, even if the cartoonist was smart enough to compose such a hoax against the warmists, the net effect is to plant in viewers minds the idea that skeptics are less than human and must be eliminated. CAGW ideologues buttress their efforts with such stinking thinking.
It shows what a bunch of half-wits the Climate Parasites are when they label a group of people, none of whom deny that climate change exists, “climate change deniers”.
In addition to further popularizing the term “Climate Parasite”, I wonder if we should also popularize the terms “real climate change” and “bogus climate change”, to differentiate between normal English and Climate Parasite English ?
Like Trenberth’s cartoon from the printed version of his speech “COMMUNICATING CLIMATE SCIENCE AND THOUGHTS ON CLIMATEGATE” stating “Global Warming Skeptics are the Greatest Threat” to the planet, this is the way climate scientists build consensus and suppress critical thinking that challenges the entrenched scientific clique. The new political mantra is “We demand everyone be open minded to others based on race, ethnicity and sexual preference, etc , but we encourage you to hate anyone who disagrees with your climate beliefs.” History will soon view this as the poltical-science-complex’s darkest hours.
Well I didn’t say it was high humor. And it may be too ambivalent. But I thought it was an ironic characterization of the irrationality of Warmists and their uncompromising stance under the present Northern Hemispheric circumstances.
Anthony, I too think that the word ‘hoax’ is too strong. Can we settle on some shade of the word ‘scheme’, with a 97% chance that this scheme is a ‘scam’?
Like the infamous 10-10 campaign, these images are reflections of the way extreme environmentalists think about their opposition. They are little Robespierres and Pol Pots waiting for their chance to cleanse mankind.
It also appears that the heroine of the story is Penny Pritzker, the Secretary of Commerce.
Anthony,
I am sure you are well aware now that your pantomimed death is not an aspiration from the greenies alone.
I maintain that the culture of death, largely overlaps with the green movement and as such influences the green movement at an operational level. The culture of death comes from left political wing.
The green death culture, the socialists, have no qualms about lying to achieve a political and social end nor do the have any qualms about killing to achieve their goals.
Look at history, the socialists are responsible for the death of 262,000,000 people in the last 110 years. See: Death by government::
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM
This cartoon should be taken very seriously by Anthony et al because this web site (WUWT) is not just about asserting true science and wonder, it is a major thorn in the side and obstacle to very evil forces that mean to have their way, come what may, even it that involves killing Mr Watts.
If you wait long enough, evil murder-oriented leftists will always show their true natures. This cartoon is just an example of what is really on the mind of the left. If they could get away with it, they would kill us all. It has happened in the past and it is happening now and it will happen again. It always starts from a socialist government and their supporters asserting some phony leftist ideal. This time it is Earth God. It always ends with mass-murder. Cambodia,, China, Germany, Ukraine etc… 262,000,000 dead at the hands of the socialist left.
Today Anthony is a cartoon vampire in the New Your Times. Tomorrow he is an obituary.
Congratulations Roy on your confirmation of Godwin’s Law. Anthony, there may be a fraction of truth in the warming claims, but that is exactly how most hoaxes get their traction. If it’s not a hoax, then it must be an extremist teleological position that has morphed into condition of noble deceit.
It seems to me that the NYT is poking fun (ouch) at the desperation of the AGW proponents. However, it may also be that they actually intend to suggest a course of action for dealing with climate realists.
How is the article any different than a Middle Eastern newspaper printing a cartoon showing a Muslim stabbing a Christian or a Jew. “Good for Dispatching the Infidel”.
Has America become so blind that it cannot recognize the seeds of Terrorism at home? Threatening to kill someone for their beliefs is Terrorism, plain and simple. The New York Times is promoting Terrorism. They can hardly complain when others do the same.
Actually I can easily live with the humour, or attempt, as many seem unclear on what was actually intended Hardly a great start. The key point being the reaction were roles reversed. Speaking of which…
—–
“Kip Hansen says:
February 23, 2014 at 8:12 am
In all fairness, it does appear in the Opinion section, in the “See something Say something” section in which things from round about are quoted. They are not meant to represent the opinion of the Editors of the NY Times, but a round up of opinions being expressed elsewhere.
—-
Again, fair enough you’d think, but….. in the wrong editorial hands such ‘one degree of separation’ “quoting” can as a technique end up oddly skewed, from who is selected to what they opt to trot out. The BBC are now masters of this. I had a complaint rejected once about some comments from a news panel because the BBC head of who gets invited couldn’t deal with what was said, and the BBC head of what gets said couldn’t deal with who was invited.
Hence, in the wonderful weird world of the BBC system, no one was responsible, so it could not be addressed and, of course, case closed internally.
Too many media are now routinely getting away with cherry picking quotes for twitter or mobile (or more traditional outlets) that are, frankly, grotesque and often totally unrepresentative of the story.
Hence the ‘we were just reflecting opinion’ excuse, these days… pull the other one.
andrewmharding says:
February 23, 2014 at 8:16 am
Two final requests:
1) All the warm mongers must come and dance on my grave
2) I want to be buried at sea
=====================================================
Don’t forget to specify over the Marianas Trench.
It is as if we ‘deniers’ are not making some critical sacrifices as the believers are making, but they live the same lives we are, (not going without energy use) and I notice they are using a gas or electric range to melt their ice, when just bringing them in to the house would be enough to melt them.
joated says:
February 23, 2014 at 8:06 am
[snip – let’s not – Anthony]
Now got to know ;>)
I think the cartoon is is making fun of the GOVERNMENT and their Idiotic solutions and poking fun at environmentalists. In other words,our current GOVERNMENT,controlled by environmentalists,views deniers as fat cats and environmentalists are batdung crazy enough to follow these suggestions Instead of realizing that our extremely cold weather this winter may indicate that global warming doesn’t exist,they live in DENIAL and come up with environmentally friendly ways of disposing the icicles.
Acting on Climate Change won’t stop the Climate from Changing.
So why bother?
Hardy Spire on CNN “Reliable Sources Blog” is saying that there’s only one side to the Climate Change Debate.
http://reliablesources.blogs.cnn.com/2014/02/21/the-rundown-for-this-sundays-show-3/
(4th paragraph down.)
pat says:
February 23, 2014 at 8:11 am
I thought that was a subtle jab at the Warmists. hmmm
————————————————————-
To me it’s a huge poke at the Warmists. It says that they’re unable to explain the cold that seems to so strongly contradict their religion and thus are so threatened that they feel compelled to lash out with violence.
Well, we know that’s the case, as with their “exploding people” ad.
That’s all that they have left because they are utterly defeated on the facts, and they know it.
“The first people you have to put in the gulags are the writers, artist and scientists lest their counter revolutionary statements confuse the ordinary people from their revolutionary destiny.”
The first people sent to the gulag will usually be the useful idiots who helped put the revolutionaries in power; they’re the ones most likely to help the next set of revolutionaries, so eliminating them needs to be a high priority for the Great Revolutionary Leader.
It’s only after the AGW fanatics are in the gulag, or rotting in a mass grave behind the chemical sheds, that the Glorious People’s Climate Change Revolutionary Army will come to murder the rest of us.
It seems to be the New York way. Governor Cuomo just a few weeks ago said that there was “no room” for conservatives in NY state. Now this. They want to do away with the opposition. Forget that this has got the cover of ostensibly being a joke. Forget that, because that’s what many of them really would like, to KILL skeptics en masse, kind of a final solution to use as their “scientific” theories are proving to be flat out hogwash, and their data tampering and control of the media are inadequate as a means to get their draconian anti-human policies enacted.
I see a completly different joke than most of the readers here. Even under threat the sceptic spits out his cigar and gives a speedy answer to the alarmist. May’be his daughter or his wife, because he seems to know her attitude. And, he is committed to his view.
The bottom part of Panel 4
Just past the grisly scenes:
He’s heard “SASE” before
But knows not what it means
He’s got those “self-” aimed envelopes
Sent to the government
You place SASE in, you dopes!
Included in what’s sent!
But obviously, the sharper point
Beyond what’s on the ice
This climate cult is out of joint;
A pestilence.
Like lice.
===|==============/ Keith DeHavelle
Dear Mr.Watts,
although a member of the ‘stalinistic’ ‘f*** the EU’ states I really do appreciate Your hard engagement, and that of your combatters,
in that contemporary herculian withstanding on ‘climate wars’.
Thanks for standing, for brillantness, for faith + truth.
Hans
As the AGW’s are the true Climate Change Deniers, so … (Isn’t drugs regulated in the US anymore, pleasing neoliberals …?)
pat says:
February 23, 2014 at 9:25 am
Well I didn’t say it was high humor.
______________________
That’s true and your viewpoint has greatly broadened the range of commentary in this thread.
Thanks.
Warmer fanatics could fall on their own icicles at the dishonour of being so wrong
For the record: I am not a “climate change denier”. Climate change has been happening long before we showed up on the scene, it’s happening right now and it will continue to happen long after we’re historical footnotes. Earth does that, you know.
The thing I question– if not outright deny– is the extent that humans are capable of causing climate change on a worldwide basis. I think it takes an awful lot of — something– to suggest that we have the power to either cause catastrophic global warming or to stop it. Local climate, yeah, we may be able to do something good or bad about that. Look at China’s smog problem for an example of people poisoning their local climate. We were on our way to the same problem here in the States before we cleaned up our act, now you can actually see through the air instead of seeing the air. But, the idea that we are capable of causing– or stopping– worldwide climate change— good luck with that, you’re gonna need it.
What is then this “Carbon Pollution”?
A sinister, evil collusion?
CO2, it is clean,
Makes it grow, makes it green,
A transfer of wealth, a solution.
From my blog: http://lenbilen.com/2014/02/22/co2-the-life-giving-gas-not-carbon-pollution-a-limerick-and-explanation/
But they told me I had no heart.
I’m so confused.
Anthony: So you do not think Global Warming is a ‘hoax’ Please explain youself!
Its been too long since i studied interpretive literature or constitutional law but isn’t the more obvious theme the murder weapon will melt? Or will it? Setting aside the obvious poor taste, it is funny. But you know what they say about bringing an icicle to a gun fight… (also a joke).
Is this any different from wanting to use the same icicles to stab, let’s say , gay people, those of different coloured skins, or those who don’t go to the same Sunday school?
“Save the planet, my AR5”. This is fascism.
Bryan A says:
February 23, 2014 at 8:38 am
I can see Pat’s point though. It starts off with what to do with ice “icicle surplus”
Well, a more thoughtful possibility would be to take the “icicle surplus” and
plunge it into the warmth that is hiding in the deep oceans.
“Self destructing icicles” are the best! You do not have to hide their decline..the evidence evaporates away.
A very smart French fellow researcher from Polytechnique School, Serge Galam, suggested that civil war was on the agenda of those pushing the Climate Theory and argumented his opinion in his 2009 book ” Les Scientifiques ont Perdu le Nord”. He was derided by most. Yet, the kind of language againts climate realists and its trivialization by the proponents of the Cause, the illustrations and calls for a cull, from the 350 blowing up kids video to Hansen, Suzuki’s jail calling show that 5 y later, Galam’s suggestion was prescient. Watch out!
Seriously, to someone new to the “Global Warming” debate, it may seem that skeptics are over-reacting here.
However, those of us who have seen over the years the hypocrisy from the believers in the Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming by CO2 (CAGW by CO2) emissions are very much justified in our reaction.
Examples: Every time there is/was a high temperature somewhere, ice melting somewhere, a storm surge somewhere, a strong wind somewhere, etc. we’ve listened to how it is more proof of CAGW by CO2.
But if we point out a low temperature somewhere, ice re-forming somewhere, or similar, we are just being foolish because no one isolated incident proves anything.
Well, except when the isolated incident is warming.
Funny … seems no one has made the connection to the DHS -the Department of Homeland (that still sounds *so* retarded IMO) Security- “If You See Something, Say Something™” campaign as spelled out here:
ALL Bolding above mine for emphasis.
Of course, this is all part of a ‘much bigger plan’ (/sarc), as we again found out this week when we learned:
The NYTimes, I’m sure, can hardly wait. (NO sarc) They are in bed with the feds already, this just provides needed/convenient cover not existing at the moment …
Sorry for the Gail-like-length post. <wink>
.
But some artists, like some bloggers, seem to thrive on edge pushing.
Here, the edge is no longer pushed. It has been passed over in its entirety and the once pusher, now passer is in free-fall. A not-so-happy landing is inevitable.
Reply to those who do not have access to the NY Times ==> The cartoon to which Anthony and Bob Greene (at JunkScience) so object, is found on the Opinion page of the NY Times Sunday Review under the sub-section: “See Something Say Something” (Kupperman and Rees’s political cartoon strip at the Times) and the sub-title: Strategies for Dealing With the 2014 Icicle Surplus By MICHAEL KUPPERMAN and DAVID REES accompanied by the text: “The Department of Commerce offers some uses for this winter’s ubiquitous accessory.”
I think this cartoon, while itself certainly in poor taste, is meant to provoke reactions of both sides of the climate debate aisle….imagine accusing Molly P.C. Moderate of wanting to attack and murder her colleague down the hall with an icicle over a disagreement about climate change!
[I know, I know, it gets different when people show up at your home or office, and I sympathize. I once held a job with a group that was the target of crazies for other reasons and it was my job to stand between the group and the crazies as they came in the door. ]
There’s second image, about the Farm Bill, at http://tinyurl.com/K-R-FarmBill featuring starving poor school children.
Pamela Gray says:
I also find nothing funny about violent and derogatory cartooning of one’s enemies on the opposite side of a debate.
Debate, what debate? They officially “refuse” to debate the issue. Knowing damned well that any “anti-science” “klimat denayer” even half versed in science will wipe the floor with them, they have to play intellectual hide-and-seek.
Stab those who disagree. Sure the most resounding evidence that “the science is settled”.
We must act NOW, stab someone before it’s too late. !!
The blatant partiality and hypocrisy of the New York Times and NPR in this area has gotten so bad that I find I can no longer stand either.
NPR has completely violated its mandated role as a reporter of news and has become a one-sided, broadcast platform of nearly incessant climate propaganda. While routinely purging listener comments protesting the barrage of forecasts of imminent doom from Thermageddon, they allow comments advocating mass murder— http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/02/18/278983058/pussy-riots-nadya-and-masha-report-being-detained-in-sochi#comment-1249707692
I say someone takes a few minutes and tests it out
That is, change all the words slightly to reflect something along the lines of “Fun things to do with icicles now that CAGW has been discredited” with the end panel stating “self destructing sabers for dispatching corrupt climatologists” (and the last image could be followed by “take it a step further and mail the ‘evidence’ to confused local authorities. …just make sure you use gloves when touching the envelope!)
Start distributing it on Twitter (where most people have likely missed the original) sit back and watch a couple Leftist/CAGW sites eventually run with it as being a sign of the “horrific images from inside the mind of science deniers” or whatever (might even make MSNBC!)
Maybe wait a couple weeks so as to avoid contamination of the experiment, but that side has extreme memory issues (after all, they cant even remember the 30s or 70s happened!) and I am fairly confident we can predict the end results.
(I’m thinking maybe the doorstop one could be along the lines of “Hippie Stoppers” and the girls comment could be something like “No Johnny, you always make my room smell like s***!”)
And CNN says there is NOT 2 sides to some debates! Yes you read correctly. We can only agree on some “science” stuff like global warming.
I’m always gob smacked by these types. Quantum mechanics has been a theory for 70 years and it has NEVER failed a test. Yet despite that there are still lots of questions and objections to it that fuels the ongoing debate.
Compared to QM the theory of CO2 controlling the climate is a dirty snotrag.
I might be offended, but the entire cartoon is such a pathetic attempt at humor that I’m reduced to feeling sorry for the cartoonist’s lack of talent and pity for the NYT’s editorial board’s lack of opinion material. . . . . .
The New York Times owners, workers all can stand with John F. Kerry.
I stand with Mark Steyn, and it required alone.
On the possibility that the cartoon is a subtle dig at global warming proponents, I’m reminded of Baltimore Oriole manager Earl Weaver’s style of ranting at the umpire after a bad call — he’d shout things like “I’m a totally blind moron!” and “That’s the most idiotic call I’ve ever made!”, so he could speak his mind without getting ejected. But I doubt that the cartoon author has Weaver’s authenticity.
Anyone else seen this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/volcanic-eruptions-contributed-to-global-warming-pause-scientists-claim-9147856.html
Apparently, all the small eruptions are supposed to have ganged-up, and stopped the temperature forcing from CO2. No, really!
One is reminded of that video made by some outfit (350.org ??) where non-believers heads blew up in a bloody mess. They thought that was “funny” too I guess.
Simply put, we are in a political war and science has damn little to do with it. Both sides have shown intolerance to the ideas of the other side, but the alarmists have always been way over the top. If this was only about science then the alarmists would lose hands down and fast. But, my friends, this is a religious/political war and stabbing “deniers” in the heart does run though their minds at times.
Next time you put down someone rather than their calmly stated ideas, remember this cartoon.
Mods.
Please look for my comment in the moderation hole again.
[Empty. Mod]
Revkin: I find the final panel in this cartoon on uses for surplus icicles to be the antithesis of humor. But some artists, like some bloggers, seem to thrive on edge pushing.
Translation: “not all jokes work for everybody. But I’m proud my paper printed it because all artists deserve to be published.”
Note to Governor Cuomo .. must register all icicles with the state, must have serial numbers on all icicles, and outlaw icicles with a more than 7 stab capacity.
SasjaL says (February 23, 2014 at 10:29 am): “As the AGW’s are the true Climate Change Deniers, so … ”
My first thought exactly. The alarmists can’t even get their insults right. 🙂
I assume the NYTimes will be liable for any mass murders by icicles in the coming weeks.
Has anyone here read, “How to create a social state” by Saul Alinsky? I believe that the discourse in the NYT and the MSM is #6 is of the eight steps.
There are 8 levels of control that must be obtained before you are able to create a social state.
The first is the most important.
1) Healthcare — Control healthcare and you control the people
2) Poverty — Increase the Poverty level as high as possible, poor people are easier to control and will not fight back if you are providing everything for them to live.
3) Debt — Increase the debt to an unsustainable level. That way you are able to increase taxes, and this will produce more poverty.
4) Gun Control — Remove the ability to defend themselves from the Government. That way you are able to create a police state.
5) Welfare — Take control of every aspect of their lives (Food, Housing, and Income).
6) Education — Take control of what people read and listen to — take control of what children learn in school.
7) Religion — Remove the belief in the God from the Government and schools.
8) Class Warfare — Divide the people into the wealthy and the poor. This will cause more discontent and it will be easier to take (Tax) the wealthy with the support of the poor.
Read more at snopes.
The nationwide “If You See Something, Say Something™” public awareness campaign – is a simple and effective program to raise public awareness of indicators of terrorism and terrorism-related crime, and to emphasize the importance of reporting suspicious activity to the proper local law enforcement authorities
=================
The cartoon is using humor to try and promote terrorism. To make it appear acceptable to “dispatch” someone for their beliefs.
Would the cartoon be funny if it said “self-destructing sabers for killing climate-change deniers”? Yet that is what it is saying, hidden behind the misleading term “dispatch”, as in “send them on their way to the other world”.
After seeing this, the faux hockey stick of 2013, you still don’t think it’s a hoax? Objectively, oh yes it is!
http://s6.postimg.org/jb6qe15rl/Marcott_2013_Eye_Candy.jpg
Al Gore flies to Kansas City to tell people to stop using fossil fuels. http://www.kansascity.com/2014/02/22/4843012/al-gore-brings-climate-change.html
“Look at history, the socialists are responsible for the death of 262,000,000 people in the last 110 years. See: Death by government:”
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM
JUST IN CASE YOU NEED A GOOD VISUAL OF THE NUMBERS
1. 169,202,000 Murdered: Summary and Conclusions [20th Century Democide]
I BACKGROUND
2. The New Concept of Democide [Definition of Democide]
3. Over 133,147,000 Murdered: Pre-Twentieth Century Democide
II 128,168,000 VICTIMS: THE DEKA-MEGAMURDERERS
4. 61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State
5. 35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Ant Hill
6. 20,946,000 Murdered: The Nazi Genocide State
7. 10,214,000 Murdered: The Depraved Nationalist Regime
III 19,178,000 VICTIMS: THE LESSER MEGA-MURDERERS
8. 5,964,000 Murdered: Japan’s Savage Military
9. 2,035,000 Murdered: The Khmer Rouge Hell State
10. 1,883,000 Murdered: Turkey’s Genocidal Purges
11. 1,670,000 Murdered: The Vietnamese War State
12. 1,585,000 Murdered: Poland’s Ethnic Cleansing
13. 1,503,000 Murdered: The Pakistani Cutthroat State
14. 1,072,000 Murdered: Tito’s Slaughterhouse
IV 4,145,000 VICTIMS: SUSPECTED MEGAMURDERERS
15. 1,663,000 Murdered? Orwellian North Korea
16. 1,417,000 Murdered? Barbarous Mexico
17. 1,066,000 Murdered? Feudal Russia
I do not see it as a joke. It is as many here have said. History will repeat. The list of what they think has become what they say. Soon it will be what they do. Go stand in those places listed above and think of the number of full football stadiums of souls wasted.
Be vigilant.
7-step response, just completed:
1. Read post, file under “Winston Smith”.
2. Convert to 19-page PDF.
3. Print out 19 pages on 20# paper.
4. Pull New York Times subscription offer out of wastebasket.
5. Return subscription offer to wastebasket; retain envelope.
6. Stuff 19 pages into Business Reply Mail envelope.
7. Send Business Reply Mail to New York Times subscription department.
Straight off the FCC’s website:
http://transition.fcc.gov/bureaus/ocbo/FCC_Final_Research_Design_6_markets.pdf
Title:
Research Design for the Multi-Market Study of Critical Information Needs:
Final Research Design Prepared by: Social Solutions International, Inc.
For: Federal Communications Commission
– – – – – –
An ever-so-brief excerpt:
So, when ‘corrective’ or remedial action is deemed necessary after viewing the report data, what will said corrective or remedial action look like, what will the new ‘speech and reporting codes’ guide and/or ‘rule’ book contain?
.
Hunh. I find all this negative reaction to the piece completely mysterious. If this cartoon appeared in the National Review or the Weekly Standard, it would be obvious that it was a (mild, to be sure, and only mildly humorous) attack on an administration which is obsessed with explaining away a harsh winter instead of doing its proper job of aiding commerce. Of _course_ the representative of such an administration calls skeptics “deniers” and wants them dead. But the joke’s on her, he has to resort to murder because he can’t explain the icicles away.
It is a mystery that this got past the editors of the NYT, I grant you. I can only conclude that in the twentieth year of this great war, both sides are losing their sense of humor. I love this blog, Anthony, but this is really crying wolf.
[“Mildly humorous” is stabbing your opponent in the heart? Mod]
For the record, I don’t think global warming is a “hoax”, but it certainly has been oversold
I dislike that phrase immensely. The line between hoax, scam and real but exaggerated (liars) is very, very fine. My opinion, for what it’s worth, is that this a a dangerous political scam. I would prefer not to give the scammers any cause to believe we might be changing tack.
Neo says:
February 23, 2014 at 12:07 pm
Note to Governor Cuomo .. must register all icicles with the state, must have serial numbers on all icicles, and outlaw icicles with a more than 7 stab capacity.
—-l
And don’t even think you can sneak an ice lolly past airport security 🙂
It still plays to the popular perception that being a climate change denier is beyond the pale of acceptable social norms. Even though it is poor humor, it’s designed to dictate what beliefs should be ostracized as belonging to a class like those who believe the lunar landing was staged.
As an aside, the NYT comes up regularly as financing what could be termed advocacy for whatever nonsense the UN hatches. Every time I notice their sponsorship it hits me that it is inconsistent with any independence of the Fourth Estate.
highflight56433:
Your post at February 23, 2014 at 12:33 pm is yet another example of an anonymous ultra-right troll trying to pretend that anything they don’t like is “socialist”.
Totalitarians come from all parts of the political spectrum. Your list is of murderous totalitarian governments. For example, any list is plain daft when – as yours – it claims to be of “socialists” and includes e.g. “Feudal Russia”.
Russia
She seems to be attempting to stab the ‘evil denier’ in the breast bone rather than the heart.
My first reply didn’t seem to take, I apologize if it subsequently shows up as a duplicate:
I love WUWT, and wish it nothing but well, but beware that in fighting humorless robots you become a humorless robot yourself. The only thing mysterious about this cartoon is that it slipped past the editors of the NYT. It could be a lot funnier, granted, but it is only making fun of an administration that is so obsessed with “climate change” that even completely irrelevant departments like Commerce are tasked with explaining away a harsh winter. Of _course_ their representative thinks of skeptics as deniers and would rather kill them than answer their objections. But the joke is surely on her. If this ran on the National Review or Weekly Standard sites, you would get it in a minute. It’s not a threat to anyone, please lighten up.
[Site requirements prohibit you from using two user_ids. Mod]
It seems a cold front has worked its way into northern Florida, its clash with the warmer air has produced tornado warnings which have led to the evacuation of spectators at the Daytona 500.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nascar/2014/02/23/2014-daytona-500-winner-race-tv-streaming/5756125/
“Track asks fans to leave grandstands and take cover because of tornado warning and severe weather.”
===========
Is it the chicken or the egg ?
I believe that these types of forums are finally getting through to the CEO as well as the worker . . Could the capitalist caricature in the NYT “cartoon” be caused by this report from an article in Breitbart?
“In a watershed moment and a huge victory over environmentalists, General Electric has agreed to stop projects that are designed solely for the purpose of carbon dioxide reductions to please those who lobby for climate change concessions.”
While there are certainly aspects of the AGW miasma that qualify as ‘hoax’, most of it is noble cause corruption, rent seeking and moral hazard, combined with magical thinking and historical illiteracy.
Rob Dawg says:
February 23, 2014 at 8:15 am
“Greenshirts.”
And Hemp Jackboots.
Reply to Mod ==> “Mildly Humorous” is a guy with a cigar in his mouth being poked with an icicle saying “Ouch!” (there is no “being stabbed in the heart” there in the cartoon).
Attributing every political cartoon to be the will and intent of the editors of the newspaper is silly beyond words, of course.
Are we going to report the Editors to the ASPCA next for cruelty to animals — tricking little Fido with melting fetch sticks?
Rob Dawg says:
February 23, 2014 at 8:15 am
“Greenshirts.”
And Hemp Jackboots. Goose-stepping for Gaia!
I am a “denier,” and I thought it was funny. Think a bit…it’s also
having a bit of fun with the AGW folks who are a tad overzealous. Their world-view includes vampires masquerading as critics.
You eagerness to be offended has eroded your sense of humour.
richardscourtney says:
February 23, 2014 at 12:50 pm
highflight56433:
Your post at February 23, 2014 at 12:33 pm is yet another example of an anonymous ultra-right troll trying to pretend that anything they don’t like is “socialist”.
Totalitarians come from all parts of the political spectrum. Your list is of murderous totalitarian governments. For example, any list is plain daft when – as yours – it claims to be of “socialists” and includes e.g. “Feudal Russia”.
Russia”
First, get it straight, it is not my list.
Second, any offense taken as you seem to be taking of such a list, is a reflection of some other type of denial.
Third, just as you demonstrate so well, you did not read the link where the posted link originated from on this blog.
Fourth, your name calling and demonizing (“anonymous ultra-right troll”) seems pretty similar to the game the CAGW zealots play.
Now I am going back to burning lots of trees in my fireplace to melt the latest weapon of choice as to eliminate the enemy anti global warming crowd, so the place stays hot while I drive to the liquor store in my big heavy four wheel drive V-8 SUV for a backup supply of cognac, most likely distilled with natural gas, and a quick stop at the gun dealer for more ammo for my personal arsenal that won’t melt above 32F. 🙂
“Yet, somehow, somebody at the New York Times thinks it is acceptable to suggest “dispatching” a whole class of people that hold a different viewpoint from them.”
Dispatching whole classes of people = “class struggle”; no surprise this comes from the NYT.
mandrake9 says:
February 23, 2014 at 12:52 pm
“It’s not a threat to anyone, please lighten up.”
Are you a spokesperson for the Left? In that case, thanks for only jokingly suggesting we be killed for the moment.
Makes you wonder if they are loosing the battle so badly that this is all they have left… The smell of desperation…. is pungent…
Bill Adams says:
February 23, 2014 at 12:41 pm
“It is a mystery that this got past the editors of the NYT, I grant you.”
It will also stay a mistery how the NYT could miss the Holodomor. And get a Pulitzer price for missing it.
Roy Spencer says:
February 23, 2014 at 8:05 am
I don’t get the Department of Commerce connection, though.
Roy,
You may find this information enlightening, as to the Chamber of Commerce reference.
Six reasons why the Greenhouse Gas cases are worth Watching
National Constitution Center, By Tom Donnelly February 19, 2014 10:25 AM
4) The Chamber’s Starring Role: While the U.S. Chamber of Commerce often files amicus briefs in important Supreme Court cases (including in EME Homer earlier this Term), the Chamber is actually one of the parties before the Court in the Greenhouse Gas Cases. Indeed, in its petition for review, the Chamber asked the Court to scrutinize the EPA’s core finding that greenhouse gas emissions endanger the public, and, even though the Court rejected this plea in limiting its grant of review to the PSD program, the Chamber has continued to argue that this important program is limited to “conventional” or “localized” air pollutants (like soot and smog), a conclusion in significant tension with Mass v. EPA. So far, the Chamber has amassed a perfect 6-0 record this Term, but the biggest decisions are still yet to come. The question remains: Will this be yet another big term for Big Business, or has the Chamber finally gone too far for the Roberts Court?
http://news.yahoo.com/six-reasons-why-greenhouse-gas-cases-worth-watching-102603756.html;_ylt=AwrTWVXiZApTEnIA_PnQtDMD
Mac
Ecoterrorism has been promoted for a long time in the US. How many decades since ecoterrorists started spiking trees to maim or kill people harvesting trees?
highflight56433:
You compound your offensive, untrue and silly post at February 23, 2014 at 12:33 pm by your childish excuse for that troll;ing which you provide in your post at February 23, 2014 at 1:21 pm.
YOU POSTED THAT LIST TO THIS THREAD. AND YOU MADE THE LIE THAT IT WAS A LIST OF “SOCIALIST” GOVERNMENTS.
It does not matter where you obtained the list. And it does not matter if anyone else had made ther lie before: you have made the infantile excuse that “Little Johny did it first”.
I really despise anonymous trolls!
Richard
NikFromNYC says: February 23, 2014 at 12:29 pm
In the picture:
“The Earth is warming faster than it has in 11,000 years”
– It is typical that the Earth is getting warmer every time an Ice Age has ended!
(Simple logic, mathematics and statistics are definitely not their companions …)
Anthony, guess this allows you to get a concealed carry permit in CA. Too many natters out there that would like to do something for the cause….
(not 100% kidding either)
REPLY: Already handled – Anthony
This debate is about well-being and survival–which always leads to lots of emotion. Indeed, survival is what emotions are all about.
Since all the data the warmists have says that the Earth is on fire, and that is is the scientists who say so (97% of them), they don’t understand how anybody could disagree. But we have something terrifying–a certain ability to influence politics despite these “facts.”
You and I know that it is the politicians (Algore ran for President, remember?) who say the Earth is on fire, so that they can raise taxes (carbon tax), and that it is the world’s scientists, especially the most eminent ones, who are the skeptics. Regular readers of this blog know what the science is.
The general public believes that the Earth is warming but that it is not enough to worry about. Many WUWT readers hold that opinion, including Lord Monckton. The IPCC has shifted strongly towards our opinion.
But the Basic on the whole subject is still the Mauna Loa CO2 graph. A huge rise in atmospheric CO2 for a time period of only decades. Over millennia, there have been far larger swings, but it is very hard to look at the Mauna Loa graph and imagine that 20th century technologies had nothing to do with that graph.
It just struck me this morning that the carbon dioxide graph looks like a great dying. The annual part of the graph is a rise every winter as living things die from the cold and lack of sun. In the Summer, the growing season, carbon dioxide falls.
There have been a few posts on this site to the effect that the total carbon dioxide from all the fossils burnt so far cannot account for more than a small fraction of the observed CO2 increase. In that case, something else is going on that is distinctly different from the AGW mantra.
The Earth is in a severe dying, and the alarmists are screaming about the wrong thing.
As a biologist with degrees and a strong interest in agriculture, I know what is causing the great dying: chemical agriculture that kills soil organisms, dams, and a little bit from nuclear power plants and even solar and wind farms (bird slicers). Some claim that Fukushima is causing a great dying in the oceans, but others think the problem is overfishing, or the thousands of industrial chemicals.
The most damaging energy source for the biosphere is hydroelectric (dams). These flood huge areas. They may cause extinction of a sea turtle and a human tribe in the Amazon. Turkey has bought into this idea that the most devastating energy source is good for the Environment. Turkey is where Adam, Eve, and Noah lived. These were real people, though the Bible was written thousands of years later and may not be precisely accurate. Troy is there, Constantinople was there, Saint Nicholas (Santa Claus) was there, and a substantial number of other ancient cities that led to our present civilization. Downstream of the dams are other countries that would be destroyed if 2013-14’s dams in constructionare finished. The amount of harm scheduled to be done by dams in Turkey this year beggars description, and we don’t have much time to prevent it.
So its not just a matter of an economic depression if the lies continue. It’s truly serious biological harm.
We can’t fix any of it by pointing out how hysterical our enemies are, with monstrous cartoons like that. We need to understand where they are right and build on that. Then we can unravel all the nonsense and work together on the agriculural and energy technologies that will solve all the problems and lead to a fluorishing of life. Fossil fuels are part of the solution.
The amount of harm scheduled to be done by dams in Turkey this year beggars description, and we don’t have much time to prevent it.
Do people being stabbed to death really say “Ouch” when stabbed? “Ouch” is a cartoon response to being poked or pricked, not slaughtered as some of the semi-hysteric posters above have asserted. My opinion of cartoon interpretation would also note the lack of any small lines at the top of the icicle or near the hand, that would indicate rapid movement of the icicle into his chest. Rather there seem to be lines that would suggest back and forth movement, as one might find if the woman was saying, “Don’t go there,” as she poked him.
That the cartoonist allows the character to fully advance (enough letters of icicle are there for us all to recognize the word) a skeptic meme by posing the question in the bubble, and has him unreasonably interrupted by a irritating poke would seem to indicate a more complex message than most have posited. The “Icicle Stimulus” and “Temporary Doorstop” parts of the panels would also seem to indicate some resistance to authority, lending more evidence to a more nuanced view of this cartoon’s message than most seemed to have perceived. Irrespective of my accuracy in interpretation, kudos to the artist whatever their intention, as they certainly have got a lot of panties in a bunch here; the goal of most cartoonists.
veeeery interesting. But not very funny. Arte Johnson
As the whole folly falls apart and the ground falls away under their feet, the Warmistas are becoming more and more desperate. They are now clutching at straws, strawmen and deggers.
I don’t care if you stab someone with an icicle, kill a Jew or lynch an African-American. I don’t like that kind of humor. I don’t think it’s funny at all.
Dear Richard S. Courtney,
How unpleasant of you to come out so full of hate. Now take a look below at your comments, then read…thoroughly. Then try to calm down, then figure something out as to the kind of crap that is coming out of your head.
“richardscourtney says:
February 23, 2014 at 1:31 pm “You compound your offensive, untrue and silly post at February 23, 2014 at 12:33 pm by your childish excuse for that troll;ing which you provide in your post at February 23, 2014 at 1:21 pm.”
“YOU POSTED THAT LIST TO THIS THREAD. AND YOU MADE THE LIE THAT IT WAS A LIST OF “SOCIALIST” GOVERNMENTS.”
It does not matter where you obtained the list. And it does not matter if anyone else had made ther lie before: you have made the infantile excuse that “Little Johny did it first”.
“I really despise anonymous trolls!”
Now that we all and you see yourself Mr. Richard S. Courtney, read this and notice the time it was posted:
“Paul Westhaver says at 9:31:
February 23, 2014 at 9:31 am
“…..Look at history, the socialists are responsible for the death of 262,000,000 people in the last 110 years. See: Death by government::
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM ….”
Bye 🙂
It won’t be long before the warmists call for skeptics to be beheaded for their perceived scientific apostasy. CAGW is the new “Religion of Peace”.
re.
highflight56433 says:
February 23, 2014 at 1:21 pm
HF, I’m with you. CAGW IS a socialist avenue to power. Apparently some Brits still don’t understand the concept of liberty. In spite of the American revolution some 238 years ago.
Stabbing people with icicles? Possible, but highly impractical. Anyone dumb enough to try killing with icicles as illustrated would most likely shatter the ice and only leave a bruise, being more of an annoyance than a threat. The individual response to such a threat made flesh however, would be down to the assaulted individual.
how about using STUN GUNS on “CLIMATE DENIERS”! not a cartoon, but broadcast twice on on taxpayer-funded ABC Australia (21 & 23 Feb). the only transcript available is on Cambridge University/BBC “Naked Scientists” website. not sure if it has yet been broadcast by the BBC, but worth reading it all:
14 Feb: Cambridge University: ABC Naked Scientist: Chris Smith: Naked at the AAAS
(Live at the AAAS 2014 meeting in Chicago, panellists David Willetts, the UK
Minister for Universities and Science, Robyn Williams, of the Science Show
on the ABC, MIT Enterprise Forum president, Kathleen Kennedy, IgNobel Awards
founder Marc Abrahams and University of Madison-Wisconsin scientist Molly
Jahn)
***Joel Veness, science journalist. Like most good ideas at this conference,
this question came from some spirited drinks we had after the session
yesterday. Climate deniers often use the tools of propaganda to further
their campaign. Should science be embracing these similar tools?…
ROBYN WILLIAMS, ABC AUSTRALIA: Naomi Oreskes is sighting the tobacco
companies who, for 40 years or more were trying to say that cigarettes may
be okay. There is doubt about the science. So, it’s unequal and I think it’s
time the scientists really got up, didn’t use propaganda, but use short,
sharp sentences and fought equally.
***CHRIS SMITH, ABC AUSTRALIA: And stun guns might help as well.
ROBYN WILLIAMS, ABC AUSTRALIA: Yes.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/podcasts/naked-scientists/show/20140214-1/nocache/1/?cHash=7cc4c94970a73724aa3bd0a2037b8257&tx_nakscishow_pi1%5Btranscript%5D=1
as for “science journalist” Joel Veness, i haven’t found a single example of journalism by him online, but he is into “REINFORCEMENT LEARNING” aka propaganda, by any chance?
Joel Veness: GOOGLE SCHOLAR
University of Alberta
Artificial Intelligence – Reinforcement Learning – Data Compression
http://scholar.google.com.au/citations?user=_iYrAxEAAAAJ&hl=en
Wow!! Revkin is comfortable to call the blowing up of children and killing of people with dissenting/differing opinion “Edgy”
What would he call the killing of all pro AGW…I wonder Oh yes of course “FRONT PAGE EXCLUSIVE”… investigative journalist? Ha! Ha! the man needs to look up the definition. Reacquaintance with an old friend is good for the soul.
RobRoy says:
February 23, 2014 at 2:05 pm
re.
highflight56433 says:
February 23, 2014 at 1:21 pm
Yep… 🙂
highflight56433:
This thread is about hate against a group being expressed in a cartoon.
Your posts expressed similar untrue demonisation of another group; i.e. socialists.
How dare you accuse me of “hate” in your post at February 23, 2014 at 2:00 pm!?
You expressed the hate and I objected – and object – to it.
I am angry at your hateful, unprovoked and untrue attack.
As I said, murderous totalitatarian governments are from across the political spectrum. Indeed, your list demonstrates that. But you lie that only “socialists” do such evil things.
Allowing hateful lies such as yours against any group enables H1tlerianism. Indeed, such lies are H1tlerianism. You are nasty, very nasty.
But you say “Bye” before apologising for your behaviour.
Richard
Seems almost satire to me.
If not, then its just another own goal from the useful idiots of the cause.
Human nature being what it is, I shake my head at the foolishness of the collective. (Climate Cause consensus?)
When you choose to demagogue a huge group of people, asserting that all who doubt, dismiss or question your world view are nasty evil people, harangue them for 3 decades, offer imprisonment, death, damnation as rewards for refusing your offered salvation.
Cause weak minded politicians to impose rapacious costs upon the energy our society depends upon, robbing us all to reward a few well connected bandits.
Which you applaud, as the poor starve and freeze.
Then the cycle turns, the warming is no more.
Does the phrase up ….. creek, without a paddle come to mind?
Having been robbed, insulted and demeaned by fools and bandits, I should forgive?
The bill is coming due and terror is spreading through the ranks of the useful idiots.
After all, their own projection and fantasies are more vile than even a lynch mob could manage.
Roy Spencer,
You may want to revise your allusion of AGW activist-to-NAZI’s to Global Warming Stalinist or even Maoists. Now all 3 were socialists (NAZI=national socialists) and were responsible for the murder of millions of their own people but the NAZI leader was merely an apprentice murderer compared with Stalin or Mao. There is a familiar and appropriate ring to Global Warming NAZI I must admit but the NAZI’s are often erroneously identified as “right-wing” by those ignorant of history. Global Warming Stalinist has less punch so to speak but Stalin and Mao were unmatched in term of their suppression of free speech and democracy.
Without a doubt your label of Global Warming NAZI is, on balance, befitting the leftist mob that is so integral to the green underbelly. Global Warming Stalinist, in my view, bespeaks a leftist intellectual conformity, which is the current modality. God help us if we have to deal with the ruthless efficiency of the Nazis as implied in the cartoon. Anthony my go down in a “night of long knives.”
NAZIs – Stalinist – Maoists – The Global Warming Leftest tyrants really can fall under any of these pejorative labels. AGW activists have really made themselves unbecoming bedfellows.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/man-assaulted-by-icicle-675432
Rob Roy:
Liberty does NOT include the right to demonise and to murder those you do not like.
Richard
Well, it could have been worse. I expected some “clever” way of sterilizing brown(poor, socialists hate poor people) people with the icicles, to reduce population growth. At least we didnt have to see that, but I know what goes on in the envirocommunists warped minds. Theyve been at it since Galton, heck Ian Flemming wrote books about them. Theres no conspiracy, no secret plans its all out in the open. WWF (Huxley, Prince Berhard) used to link to papers on http://www.dieoff.org it seem WWF have cleened up their site somewhat now but the message is clear. Man is an abomination and must be exterminated. And the most effective way of reducing earths population is by taxing energy.
Paul Pierett says:
February 23, 2014 at 9:17 am
Anthony, it looked like a typical Republican I can’t stand either.
=========================
Seriously?
[Moderators, I completely understand the policy against multiple IDs, and was not deliberately trying to get around it. (As you seem to have understood, thanks.) Although I have always tried to simply enter my own name, Bill Adams, sometimes WordPress hijacks the log-in process and uses one of my other IDs, sometimes it doesn’t, I don’t know why. From now on, I’ll just always go through WordPress to be consistent.]
I will try one last time to make this point, then give up:
There is a big difference between a cartoon that shows delightful people we’re supposed to identify with playfully stabbing “deniers” — and the cartoon we’re actually looking at, which satirizes a foolish government department which is desperately trying to explain away a harsh winter by calling it a Commerce success (icicle surplus!), because then the attitude of its spokespeople toward skeptics (which would of course use their “denialist” terminology) is also seen to be foolish. Yeah, I agree that the big see-gar is probably supposed to spoof the skeptic, too, but the main point remains that the Commerce spokespuppet has no legitimate answer to him.
When I said I was surprised the cartoon got past the NYT editors, I was not saying I was surprised they condoned the stabbing of skeptics, I was saying they did not realize — as apparently most commenters here do not realize — that if anything the cartoon ridicules such knee-jerk anti-skepticism by ridiculing the Administration it comes from.
The cartoonists, Rees and Kupperman, have only just started with the Times, and while they probably are left-liberals and may even be warmists when they are at home, they are clearly not knee-jerk Obamists, as their first strip made clear:
http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2014/01/rees-and-kupperman-debut-new-strip-in-new-york-times/
The current cartoon makes fun of an administration that is obsessed with “climate change” and “deniers” while the economy collapses around it. If Josh ran a cartoon about Al Gore pushing a skeptic out of a window, one might think it a little too rude to Gore (I suppose, if one had no sense of humor), but one wouldn’t consider it an unfunny threat against the lives of skeptics. This cartoon is in the voice of an imaginary Obama Commerce guy writing a press release, he is the target just as Gore would be in the above example. There is no way it is trying to rally people to emulate the stabbing, even playfully — rather, it exposes the daydreams of the administration. If it were funnier, this would no doubt be clearer — I’m not claiming it’s a _good_ cartoon — but it’s just not an assault on decency and the West. I still say, lighten up. But from now on, I’ll let it lie.
Most marketing people are idiots, and editors not far behind. (I’ve worked with pros, but they are the minority).
I am not amused by any suggestion, even in jest, that skeptics should be stabbed like vampires. There are those among the Climate Nazis (to use Dr. Spencer’s term, which I heartily endorse, for these people) that may well be disposed to take it seriously and act on it.
@richard S. Courtney –
For your information, ALL socialist systems ARE either economic failures (Britain before Thatcher, and the present-day, financially collapsing EU) or are genocidally murderous. Let me name three for you: The National SOCALIST German Workers Party, founded not by Hitler but by one doctrinaire Marxist socialist named Anton Drexler; the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics; and Maoist China’s anthem “SOCILISM Is Good.”
Clinging to failed, inhumane socialist ideas only helps the cause of CAGW, which is most unequivocally socialist, and whose inhumanity proceeds in large part from its socialist dogma..
Indeed, I deny that I am responsible for significant climate change.
The problem is that the sky-is-falling CAGW crowd use the term “denier” as a smear. That’s the nature of their mentality (name-calling not facts) and a shallow positionning tactic (tell a lie often enough…..).
One final point that I feel supports my interpretation of the cartoon is the use of the word dispatch in the title of the panel in question. While dispatch can mean kill, it’s more common usage is: to send (someone or something) quickly to a particular place for a particular purpose or :to defeat (a person or team) in a game, contest, etc., with : to kill (a person or animal) quickly, typically being the third listed definition. I assume the cartoonist, knowing the limitations of text in cartoons, chose his words carefully. I think the posting’s editorializing headline, “NYT Suggests “Deniers” Should Be Stabbed Through the Heart–Like Vampires” provided the Pavlovian priming for many of the commenters misperceptions. If you look where the icicle’s point is on the man’s chest you’ll note that it would miss the heart entirely. Which would seem to indicate that, “If it bleeds, it leads,” is as seductive on a science website as the MSM.
As opposed to ball and powder, there has been a bumper crop of icicle weapons this year. As with all “green” produce, your government advises you to source your icicle armaments locally as it can spoil rapidly if exposed to warm conditions, if you can find any right now. Open carry is illegal in Kahlifornia as well as 8 other states.
John Vonderlin,
Dispatch may well be noted third in the dictionary as kill. I beg to disagree that the cartoonist was neutralizing his own art. As Revkin stated, I think the artist was being edgy, and to that end, the use of dispatch has a casual mocking insidiousness to it that implies the lack of moral inhibition possessed by the killer.
I think it pernicious and dark and betrays the Climate Stalinist moral disregard.
Mr. Richard fails to recognize that a link was opened that was posted at 9:31, copy/pasted its contents to this blog so its contents could be read…by any who chose to read it. Pretty clear.
Mr. Richard fails to recognize his anger is misdirected.
Mr. Richard… You don’t even have to apologize for your missteps.
Good evening.
John Vonderlin says:
February 23, 2014 at 2:29 pm “If you look where the icicle’s point is on the man’s chest you’ll note that it would miss the heart entirely. Which would seem to indicate that, “If it bleeds, it leads,” is as seductive on a science website as the MSM.”
Yep…keep telling yourself that.
saw an interview in Australia yesterday with Andrew Bolte, he said he fears its becoming a criminal act to doubt what so called experts say.
I immediately thought of Christianity in Rome, Inquistion in Spain, Galileo and his earth revolving around the sun, Nazi Germany, a few of many, all of which brought about many deaths of innocents, I fear we deniers are heading down the same black hole of the many.
UPDATE2: Revkin has added some additional thoughts at his tumblr blog:
It’s worth saying more. This cartoon is right up there with the “pretty edgy” 2010 climate-campaign video showing a teacher blowing up students who didn’t sign on to cut their carbon footprints.
Both are great attention getters, and were utterly stupid if the goal was do accomplish anything other than inflaming and dividing people on an important issue. And that would be a reprehensible goal.
=======
I get it.
It didn’t go over well, so lets disassociate from it.
What is needed is a new message that will win over those damn skeptics.
The problems seem to be:
Attention span
Lack of stupidity
The inability to divide a robust, decentralized entity.
Goals that leave no room for future progress
—
Good luck
[It is not clear above which words are actually quoting Revkin (from his Twitter account); and which words are your summary of Revkin’s words; and which words are your editorial comments about Revkin’s words. Mod]
highflight;
Mr. Richard fails to recognize his anger is misdirected.
>>>>>>>>>>>
Whether you agree with his way of protesting or not, his protest is justified. It is rather common on this forum to demonize socialists. CAGW is neither a left nor a right issue, it has both adherents and opponents on both sides of the fence. As a capitalist myself, I am embarrassed to no end at the length to which capitalists have moved to enrich themselves on the basis of the CAGW meme.
If you want to defeat the CAGW madness, then stick to the science. If you do that, you’ll find no better ally than richardscourtney, someone whose science and knowledge in this area is impeccable, and his political leanings are immaterial.
Before claiming that any political affiliation is evil and worthy of hatred it is necessary to:
1 Define the group
2 Explain why they are hateful
3 Justify why the hate is preferable to debate
The icicle stabbers have not (precisely) achieved point 1, merely assumed point 2 and ducked point 3.
On this thread, the anti-“socialists” have forgotten to address point 1, assumed point 2 (which could be supposed to be justifiable as “socialists” can be anything – apparently) and haven’t even bothered to consider that hate is unhelpful.
We should all look at the motes in our own eyes first.
If I were a reader I would find the cartoon very disturbing, no matter what my viewpoint. Here in the UK people are often identified by the paper they read so items like this could make them think about changing to another paper.
Some of the worst propaganda has been wrapped up in cartoons – it seems innocuous. The fact that it got past the editor suggests it does represent a viewpoint of the paper which they would probably not express clearly in an article.
Is the NYT circulation increasing?
This confirms that the new york times is not even worthy to wrap fish for later disposal in a septic tank.
They, in particular, and new yorkers in general are asinine little creeps, not worthy of any attention.
Fact is I’ve spent too much time on the crapweasels already.
No, the last I heard was. That profits were down 12% last year.
M Courtney,
I defined the group at 9:31 am after Roy Spenser at 8:06 am.
Climate alarm-ism is well-known to be wealth redistribution scam…that is axiomatic.
In fact, to say that AGW is socialism borders on a tautology. You don’t actually have to say it anymore.
TRM says:
February 23, 2014 at 11:29 am
“And CNN says there is NOT 2 sides to some debates! Yes you read correctly. We can only agree on some “science” stuff like global warming.
I’m always gob smacked by these types. ”
They willfully pretend to forcefully believe in a lie for their own gain.
For those who think this may be some sort of subtle dig…it is not. A quick glance at the cartoonists’ Twitter feeds bears this out. What is even more disturbing are those replying to tweets about the cartoon, many of who are advocating violent deaths for skeptics.
David Rees: @letsgetshort
Michael Kupperman: @MKupperman
highflight56433:
At February 23, 2014 at 2:54 pm you say
Yes, it is VERY clear.
It is also clear that the list is of governments covering the extreme right to the extreme left.
And it is clear that you added the lie that all those listed are “socialists”.
You chose to do that. And you did that. Nobody else.
Apologise.
Richard
Climate Change, CO2 kills, Hockey Stick, Michael Mann, Democrat Party.
What do all these have in common.
One stands out, the book “Rules for Radicals”.
Those who stand together.
On Al Gore, John Kerry, Michael Mann, B. Obama.
First know thyself.
Chad Wozniak:
re your off topic comment at February 23, 2014 at 2:28 pm.
Margaret Thatcher was a disaster for our country. Our economy has still not recovered.
Some towns were so damaged by her that they held street parties to celebrate her funeral.
Importantly, in the context of this thread, Maragret Thatcher started the AGW-scare.
See http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2012/09/12/richard-courtney-the-history-of-the-global-warming-scare/
Richard
I think we need to call these extremists what they are- eco-bullies – here is my experience with the Canadian variety: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw_cZV1yOHM
William Abbott says:
February 23, 2014 at 8:40 am
—————————————-
That is exactly how it was always done throughtout history, no matter who the perpetrator was. Demonize those who you are about to slaughter. That makes it much more palatable to the consciousness of the slayers.
pat says:
February 23, 2014 at 2:08 pm
I love the “climate deniers” label.
Yes, indeed, I am unequivocal in my denial of the existence of climate. There is no such thing. I only believe in things I can see, and I have never seen the climate.
Richard Courtney:
As I conceive of the “right” there cannot, by definition, be a murderous “right-wing” government, as no government, as envisioned by small-government advocates, would be in any position to be murderous.
Murder and oppression by government is murder and oppression by government, regardless of arbitrary labels. The people I know on “the right” think minimal, strictly and vigorously restrained, government is the best, for exactly this reason.
Funny things happened on the way to lunch after publishing a couple of articles on the cult of man Made global warming. I came home to find a pile of cigarette butts in my driveway.
I had another published in the Lakeland Ledger a few weeks ago. Someone smashed my door bell.
I would take a pop sickle over an ice sickle.
Paul
Paul Westhaver:
At February 23, 2014 at 3:39 pm you assert
Say what!?
The AGW-scare was started by that well-known ‘socialist’ Margret Thatcher.
I have a post held in moderation which provides a link to an explanation of why and how she started the scare.
The ultra-right has repeated the lie that “AGW is socialism” so often that it now “borders on a tautology” for them. But repetition does not convert a lie into truth despite the belief in Big Lie so dear to the ultra-right.
In reality the AGW-scare is a tool being used by people of every political persuasion who seek totalitarianism .
Richard
highflight56433,
Yesterday I was traveling and while I was at a fast food restaurant I encountered a “bag lady” who felt it necessary to tell me, and everyone around me for that matter, that aliens invaded her body through her extremities and were responsible for her frequent stool discharges.
So I politely listened briefly and told her that she may be mistaken.
It didn’t matter, her mind was made up and I’m not a psychiatrist so I had to bid her good day despite my sincere desire to see her repaired. It was really quite beyond my ability and I left the poor woman for somebody more capable than me. It was kind of amusing too.
You are in the same predicament as I was yesterday. I can tell you too are amused.
You have to enjoy life’s little pleasures sometimes. I am without a doubt.
Cheers.
PW
Richard,
You broke your promise not to talk to me anymore.
“Rules for Radicals” is a text book for community organizers. “Though published for the new generation of counterculture-era organizers in 1971, Alinsky’s principles have been successfully applied over the last four decades by numerous government, labor, community, and congregation-based organizations, and the main themes of his organizational methods that were elucidated upon in Rules for Radicals have been recurring elements in political campaigns in recent years.” Wiki
For what it is worth, I prefer the term I read on a different thread, “Climate Parasites”
[snip – a bit over the top -mod]
Paul Westhaver:
At February 23, 2014 at 4:07 pm you say to me
True, but sometimes the deranged are so deluded that a word of correction is a kindness.
Surely, in the light of your post at February 23, 2014 at 4:06 pm you can understand that. However, I seem to have had as much success with you as you had with the “big lady”. Of course, I console myself at my failure to help because my attempt was ambitious when your problem is more serious than hers.
Richard
mandrake9 says:
February 23, 2014 at 2:26 pm
“WordPress hijacks the log-in process and uses one of my other IDs, sometimes it doesn’t,”
Solution: Use the change button before you submit your post.
That section of the cartoon is in very taste indeed!!!
Kate Forney:
I fail to understand your post at February 23, 2014 at 4:04 pm.
The ultra-right governments of H1tler and Mussolini killed millions.
And please don’t start the nonsense of black is white and right is left.
Genghis Khan was not left wing.
Totalitarians are evil whatever part of the political spectrum they inhabit.
Richard
I guess that if they actually had a leg to stand on, violence wouldn’t be the first thing that came to mind. It could also be a reaction to the cognitive dissonance of having to explain extreme colds with global warming. Their intellect is simply playing catch up their emotions.
The term “Climate Parasites” or “Climate NAZIs” does not indicate whether one is talking about a “denier” or “warmest”, other than to the readers of this BLOG. I would recommend a term or terms that when heard by any individual immediately identifies the group that one is referring too. Two of these might be “Global Warming NAZI” or Global Warming Parasite”. I believe that we have allowed the other side to confuse the discussion by changing the term to “climate change”. A community organizer/politician would probably perform a survey to find out which term G?W. or C?C resonated with the public. A very smart politician, in an economically depressed state, could probably swing more than a few votes their way given what is known about the global warming fallacy. The other thing would be the message about the cost of energy today because of this fallacy.
richardscourtney says (February 23, 2014 at 4:29 pm): “Kate Forney: I fail to understand your post at February 23, 2014 at 4:04 pm.”
That’s probably because Kate seems to be equating “right-wing” with “more libertarian”, and “left-wing” with “more totalitarian”. You, on the other hand, seem to have a different definition of “right-wing”, which allows “right-wing” to include “totalitarian”. Perhaps if you defined your version of the political spectrum, you and Kate could communicate better. It might help if you could place “libertarian” somewhere on your left-right spectrum.
Richard Courtney, “The ultra-right governments of H1tler and Mussolini killed millions.
And please don’t start the nonsense of black is white and right is left.”
How can you be so smart and dumb and naive at the same time. I’ll say no more. Your hopeless. Or may your definition of socialism is unique.
Is someone here actually referring to the National Socialist Worker’s Party (NAZI) as right wing?
It may help them to Google “klanbake” to understand the American eugenic origin of Naziism.
Climate parasite, that’s good, short, memorable, to the point, accurate, nasty but not over the top,
I think I will start using and promoting this whenever possible
richardscourtney says:
February 23, 2014 at 4:29 pm
“Totalitarians are evil whatever part of the political spectrum they inhabit.”
——————————————————————————————-
I would agree without reservation. I think, though, that the dispute is more in the matter of terminology.
The way I understand it, to you, “right” is National Socialism (that is, Nationalsozialismus) and “left” is International Socialism. So we have entirely different frames of reference. To me, “left” is any system that advocates supremacy of the state (or more correctly, the government) over the individual, whatever the excuse, and to you, “right” is “not International Socialist”. I’m sure you’re kidding with the Genghis Khan thing. Aren’t you?
With this in mind, I can see where you might claim that “right-wing” governments are responsible for mass murder. However, any government with “socialist” in the name of the ruling party does not, in my opinion, qualify as “right-wing”. I might accept the possibility of my being an outier in that respect.
I hope I have helped you in your understanding of my previous post, whose thrust you have repeated the quote above.
“Margaret Thatcher was a disaster for our country. Our economy has still not recovered.
Some towns were so damaged by her that they held street parties to celebrate her funeralImportantly, in the context of this thread, Maragret Thatcher started the AGW-scare.
See http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2012/09/12/richard-courtney-the-history-of-the-global-warming-scare/”
Richard I agree with many things you say on WUWT; this though I most certainly do not!
Our country was totally wrecked by consecutive Labour governments and then by Edward Heath who gave us the EU! The trouble with Socialism is that the objective of redistribution of wealth is always secondary to it’s creation, which however you argue, cannot be sensible. Margaret Thatcher got rid of the people who got us labelled as “the sick man of Europe” and strengthened our economy, so we had the wealth to help those who needed it.
You will never help those who need help, by impoverishing those who can provide help!
Margaret Thatcher also admitted she was wrong with regard to AGW, she was badly advised like we all are!
Sad to see such a once-great paper stoop so low – wouldn’t line a birdcage with that slop now. And to top it off, they’re advocating violence…
Next thing, they’ll be pushing icicle-control laws, or perhaps banning ice in “evil” cola (remember, it has the horrid CO2 in it…).
Props to Andrew Revkin for saying they went too far…he’s still a warmist, but doesn’t seem as rabid as most.
Sounds like NYT & co. are getting desparate…
The left-right distinction has become virtually meaningless today.
The old right, as, say in 19th-century Europe, is all but extinct. Its nearest and truest equivalent today is actually today’s wealthy leftists, who like the old right, are characterized by old money, hubris, elitism, hypocrisy, making of rules for others not binding on oneself, the expectation that the hoi polloi shall bow and scrape, authoritarian impulses and generally inhumane attitudes – in short, just as reactionary, and in just the same way, as the old right was.
CAGW illustrates many of the reactionary (i.e., truly right-wing) tendencies of the left, including its fascination with ancient technologies (if they can be called that) like wind power; its reflexive intolerance of contrary opinion, to the point of threatening skeptics with murder, as in the NYT piece; disregard of the ill effects of the policies they propose, particularly on poor people; and above all, the hypocrisy of a wealthy, jet-setting individual who married, not earned, his money, in criticizing John Q. Public for driving an SUV
Dear Mr. Richard S. Courtney and defenders,
Following is what I posted. It is a quote. I will gladly supply you an explanation of a quote if you require it. Get your glasses out at look at the posting. Your quickness to make accusations at others is not polite.
“Look at history, the socialists are responsible for the death of 262,000,000 people in the last 110 years. See: Death by government:”
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM
Careful, you might actually have to concede. In your rage in what you think you saw, you state the following (Please note that copy paste works really well. In other words one does not make mistakes in retyping what others type…just like I did initially) :
“Yes, it is VERY clear.
It is also clear that the list is of governments covering the extreme right to the extreme left.
And it is clear that you added the lie that all those listed are “socialists”.
You chose to do that. And you did that. Nobody else.
Apologise.
Richard
Now Mr Courtney, notice that I did not mention anything about “socialists” and I did not mention any opinion about “socialists.” But do notice that I quoted what some other said about “socialists” and notice that you went ballistic while I enjoyed my fire, cognac, burning gasoline, etc all while trying to warm the planet ( and my good nature).
In the meantime I have found a very unpleasant cigar…the CO2 will green up the house plants. 🙂
P.S. Life is short. Everyting else is forever. So … find some pleasure.
@Kate Forney and richardscourtney:
Anton Drexler, founder of the NSDAP, was a socialist. Mussolini, when he founded the Fascisti, was still a socialist. Nazism and Fascism are properly both understood as leftist, not rightist. In Spain, while Franco was a dictator, he actually was true right, not another fascist (strictly speaking). Both Hitler and Mussolini made devil’s bargains with the old right in their respective countries, who wanted to expand their empires, to secure their positions but their meme was otherwise left, not right.. Franco is known to have had great personal contempt for both Hitler and Mussolini and used them shamelessly for his own purposes, then dumped them.
The culture of death.
Since the 1950s, the elitist totalitarian progressives, convincing each other of the panic of over-population by people who do not think like them, have been advocating for the abortion and sterilization of the unfit, and the hastened death of the very ill. They have had their way with thousands.
You all think they really are not wishing for the deaths of climate deniers? They have already shown you the 10-10 video.
The mercy of the wicked is cruel.
Some recent stories of the elitist progressive totalitarians at work:
http://www.wric.com/story/24780872/ga-to-sterilization-victims-youre-not-worth-the-time-it-would-take-to-discuss-the-issue
http://www.wset.com/story/24762673/virginia-eugenics-victims-demand-compensation-before-its-too-late
http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/News/Addenbrookes-doctor-says-end-of-life-pathway-was-inappropriate-for-Robert-Goold-who-died-last-year-20140128181648.htm
richardscourtney says:
February 23, 2014 at 4:29 pm
“The ultra-right governments of H1tler and Mussolini killed millions.
And please don’t start the nonsense of black is white and right is left.”
Isn’t it funny that Mussolini learned his trade as a socialist then all of a sudden doing the same thing as “ultra right wing”.
“Genghis Khan was not left wing.”
Genghis Khan, was that a mass murderer who learned his trade from Karl Marx as well?
…Mr Courtney…as for my identity and your ranting off about it, sorry, no can do, even though you may be able with some serious homework figure it out. I assume Anthony understands the need for it.
Does this qualify as a death threat or a bad joke? I only ask because the bar is so low.
There’s plenty of ice damming to go around this year in these parts near Boston. I barely missed injuring the dog with an icicle when he barked at 3:00am the other night, (he probably just heard a deer munching on shrubbery out front but out he goes if I’m not certain and he doesn’t otherwise explain). I didn’t notice that a ginormous icicle had formed at the back door and it broke off when I opened the storm door just as he was leaping through the door way. It missed him by inches. Then I was really awake.
Donna Quixote opined “That’s the crux of this whole divisive issue. There are no climate change ‘deniers’. I prefer ‘realists’, which is in fact, what we are.”
I agree that we are not “deniers” although I rather the designation “AWG Refuters”
and anent richardscourtney’s misunderstanding of the political spectrum .
Totalitarianism in it’s hydra headed manifestations is an exclusive province of the left.
Extreme rightists tend to Authoritarianism, such as Monarchists,and Autocrats. They don’t seek total control of all aspects of existence as the Fascists, Nazis, and Internationalists do.
Bill Adams (mandrake9) has it right in his analysis.
It is not a warmist cartoon.
It’s a skeptics cartoon. (Ouch!)
Mike Wryley says:
February 23, 2014 at 5:12 pm
Climate parasite, that’s good, short, memorable, to the point, accurate, nasty but not over the top,
I think I will start using and promoting this whenever possible
————————————-
I totally agree, and this is worth repeating.
There are many on here who believe that the Climate Parasite’s f*ckwit memes can be defeated by scientific mental masturbation. We can choose to disagree.
Climate Parasite is very nasty but, unfortunately, true. They’re not going to like it, because the next level is going to be Fake Socialist Parasite, and don’t they know it?
Make that “AGW Refuters”
….. apologies to the members of the Society for the Abolition of the Aberrant Apostrophe (which I think may still exist).
Really, all the debate over how to describe government control over individuals is meaningless.
Big government always crushes the productivity out of the citizens.
Then government has a choice, shrink, rob citizens of another country or enslave its own citizens.
The most vile governments of modern history have done all of these things, except voluntarily shrink their drain upon their citizens.Past shrinkage is mostly down to economic/social collapse.
Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming, is the natural behaviour of government piled upon government.
A need to feed the parasites is all that is necessary to create such a scheme, it robs all of the producers and rewards the parasitic group.
A tax on air.
This UN orchestrated theft and redistribution of public treasure has damaged our trade economy, it teeters on collapse, trust is dead, kleptocracy common.
There is no negotiation possible with a parasite, yet the parasitic class is the biggest it has ever been.
The bureaus of government have never before in history housed so many busy minions, all delightedly gnawing at the foundations of society, just following orders or procedure.
All engaged in nonproductive work at the expense of taxpayers.
Never mind your ideology, can you add?
There is no public treasure left, only debt and crumbs, now what happens?
The cyclic rise and fall of our societies is a clue, perhaps intelligence for the mob, has not yet evolved.
“A need to feed the parasites is all that is necessary to create such a scheme, it robs all of the producers and rewards the parasitic group.”
Exactly! And think of all the catch a wild pig handout programs to capture votes for bigger government.
In Europe, Canada, England, and Oz, is this “right wing”?
CONSTITUTION OF THE STATE OF IDAHO
Approved July 3, 1890
PREAMBLE We, the people of the state of Idaho, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and promote our common welfare do establish this Constitution.
INALIENABLE RIGHTS OF MAN: Section 1. Inalienable rights of man. All men are by nature free and equal, and have certain inalienable rights, among which are enjoying and defending life and liberty; acquiring, possessing and protecting property; pursuing happiness and securing safety.
SECTION 2 POLITICAL POWER INHERENT IN THE PEOPLE.
SECTION 3 STATE INSEPARABLE PART OF UNION.
SECTION 4 GUARANTY OF RELIGIOUS LIBERTY.
SECTION 5 RIGHT OF HABEAS CORPUS.
SECTION 6 RIGHT TO BAIL — CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENTS PROHIBITED.
SECTION 7 RIGHT TO TRIAL BY JURY.
SECTION 8 PROSECUTION ONLY BY INDICTMENT OR INFORMATION.
SECTION 9 FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
SECTION 10 RIGHT OF ASSEMBLY.
SECTION 11 RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS.
SECTION 12 MILITARY SUBORDINATE TO CIVIL POWER.
SECTION 13 GUARANTIES IN CRIMINAL ACTIONS AND DUE PROCESS OF LAW.
SECTION 14 RIGHT OF EMINENT DOMAIN.
SECTION 15 IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT PROHIBITED.
SECTION 16 BILLS OF ATTAINDER, ETC., PROHIBITED.
SECTION 17 UNREASONABLE SEARCHES AND SEIZURES PROHIBITED.
SECTION 18 JUSTICE TO BE FREELY AND SPEEDILY ADMINISTERED.
SECTION 19 RIGHT OF SUFFRAGE GUARANTEED.
SECTION 20 NO PROPERTY QUALIFICATION REQUIRED OF ELECTORS — EXCEPTIONS.
SECTION 21 RESERVED RIGHTS NOT IMPAIRED.
SECTION 22 RIGHTS OF CRIME VICTIMS.
SECTION 23 THE RIGHTS TO HUNT, FISH AND TRAP.
A lot of us are tired of people forgetting (or really failing to perceive) that historically, the data shows that any government powerful enough to strip your property, weapons, and agricultural means, always feels it is the prerogative of the state to “dispatch” your life. Inre China Germany Russia Cambodia N Korea etc etc. The empirical observations are in.
Richard Courtney,
I have about the same thoughts about you as Bob (February 23, 2014 at 4:58 pm) and can agree with others with their arguments against you.
To clarify whether a specific political ideology is left or right, I’m using similar methodology used when three known religions are mentioned:
“Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the sons of Abraham”
Here we go …
* “Socialism” and “Communism” are the children of Karl Marx.
* “Socialism” in turn, has children known as “Bolshevism” (famous by Lenin, Trotsky & Co.) and “Menshevism“.
* “Bolshevism” then had an small affair with right wing forces and got as a result a child called “National Socialism“.
Further, “National Socialism” share too many ideas/ideals with both “Socialism” and “Communism” about how society should work, to be classified as a right-wing ideology. The sloppy term “Nazi” is used most often by those leftists who don’t like the actual name, showing where the politics actually belongs … (All of the mentioned leftism’ works only in theory though, in practice it’s all about benefits for those who are in positions of power, just like several right wing ideologies) Regarding “Socialism“, too many confuse this with “Liberalism“. “Liberalism” looks at the society from the individual’s perspective. (Do whatever you want as long as you don’t affect anyone else …) Something that is well liked in North America … As well, “Patriotism” is a key element in left wing ideologies (a very useful tool for politicians of any kind …).
Btw, Benito Musselino was a member of the Italian Socialist Party 1901-1914, so there you have his political base for the fascism he advocated …
DirkH says:
February 23, 2014 at 1:28 pm
Bill Adams says:
February 23, 2014 at 12:41 pm “It is a mystery that this got past the editors of the NYT, I grant you.”
It will also stay a mistery how the NYT could miss the Holodomor.
~^~^~^~^~^~^^~^~^^~^~^~^^~
Thank you for another excellent comment and speaking of Holodomor and communism, apparently the Cuban diet certainly helps to keep the figure svelte, the wages spent, all the while “saving the planet” and “going organic” at the same time:
“Yet even more shocking, perhaps, than the d-niers are certain current Western commentators who actually acknowledge the government-organized starvation but praise it. Some say that “the Cuban diet” is a great way to lose weight. Others see it as a key step forward in the fight to save the planet: “[T]hey have created what may be the world’s largest working model of a semi-sustainable agriculture, one that doesn’t rely nearly as heavily as the rest of the world does on oil, on chemicals, on shipping vast quantities of food back and forth,” wrote environmental ideologue Bill McKibben in his 2005 Harper’s article “The Cuban Diet: What you will be eating when the revolution comes”: “They import some of their food from abroad — a certain amount of rice from Vietnam, even some apples and beef and such from the United States. But mostly they grow their own, and with less ecological disruption than in most places. In recent years, organic farmers have visited the island in increasing numbers and celebrated its accomplishment.”
* “5 pounds of rice, 5 pounds of sugar, 1 pound of salt, 10 ounces of beans, 8 ounces of cooking oil, 0.15 ounces of coffee mixed with unknown stuff that isn’t coffee, 6 ounces of very-low-quality fish, and 1 pound of a disgusting product made from unsalable animal parts, per month. No fruits or vegetables are included. I repeat: These rations are not free, but must be paid for, with the total bill consuming most of a Cuban’s monthly salary.” Beef is only eaten by the communist leaders.
ref: Cuba: The Holodomor Next Door
Cuba’s starvation policy is a crime against humanity.
By Robert Zubrin
richardscourtney says:
February 23, 2014 at 4:05 pm
“The ultra-right has repeated the lie that “AGW is socialism” so often that it now “borders on a tautology” for them. But repetition does not convert a lie into truth despite the belief in Big Lie so dear to the ultra-right. ”
===========
Is there a way to identify these “ultra-right’s” on the streets ?
I mean, I’ve never actually seen a bogey-man, but might deduce it.
These “ultra-rights”, how could you tell ?
Maybe this cartoon is just sayin’ that some people find you annoying ’cause [you] are so often correct.
IF richardscourtney (a socialist) and Christopher Monkton (a conservative and confidant of Margaret Thatcher) could put aside their political differences to debate (and win) against warmists at one of the most prestigious universities in the world, why can’t we?
It is one thing to be defeated by a divide and conquer strategy. It is the epitome of stupidity to inflict it upon ourselves.
Paul Westhaver says: February 23, 2014 at 9:31 am
highflight56433 says: February 23, 2014 at 12:33 pm
While I’m not certain of the economic/political flavors of Mexico, Turkey, and some minor players, the huge preponderance of megadeaths do fall in the socialist camp. But that’s understandable, as ordinary people tend to act in their own self-interest, rather than take into account the interest of the socialist state in keeping them compliant.
I think your numbers on the Soviet megadeaths is out of date, though. With the fall of the Soviet Union and the release of the Mitrokhin Archives (ISBN 0-14-028487-7) in the late 90’s, the CIA raised the number from an estimated 70 million to a confirmed 110+ million.
The National Socialist number might be a few million overstated, unless you add in the Japanese, as they might properly fit into the fascist camp, government working hand in hand with the big industrialists much as happened in Germany with the rise of the NSDAP.
Mainland China has slacked off on the megadeaths since the demise of Mao, but should properly take credit for the continuing atrocities in North Korea, as that blight would no longer exist without the material support and active protection of China.
_____________________
I, too, take the cartoon as a jab at the warmists.
Mike
Chad Wozniak says:
February 23, 2014 at 5:36 pm
Of course, they both are collectivist (and statist) governments (really, socio-economic policy) which necessarily makes them the same form of government as socialism. Too many do not understand how small the distinction is (specifics of implementation, not kind, nor degree) and bandy the various words about thinking they all mean something vastly different. Really, they don’t. It is unfortunate because these collectivists have convinced the world that communist Russia fell because of communism, and what they are now advocating is somehow different enough that it can work. The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics… sigh.
Either way, highflight’s post was nothing to do with anything richardscourtney has gone off the deep end about. Indeed, he has made himself look a fool trying to desperately to protect the ideology he holds so dear, while highflight merely sits back and points out the folly of his rants. I can imagine this beet-red faced individual screaming at a monitor… for no reason at all, really. Chill, dude. He’s not stepping on puppies outside your window.
Anyway, I find Revkin’s responses disappointing, though not unexpected. Every post he makes is about inflaming and dividing opinion. He regularly does exactly what his high and mightiness now seems to think is reprehensible – he cares not one whit about those that disagree with him, and his language regarding them reflects exactly that. I am unconvinced by his faux (apparently new-found) morality.
Mark
Oh, it is worth pointing out that the link does not even directly contain the word “socialist.” Just sayin…
Mark
The illiteracy of these people is showing.
The word is “Sabre” not “Saber”.
u.k.(us) says:
February 23, 2014 at 6:44 pm
Labels. Give an engineer a label maker and everyone will have proper labels by the end of the year.
Mark
Mike McMillan;
the huge preponderance of megadeaths do fall in the socialist camp.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I don’t want to extend this unproductive debate further, but think it is worth calling out that comment. I grew up during the cold war, and there was nothing I could see about the Soviet Union that was remotely socialist. From Stalin forward, it was a military dictatorship that called itself communist. It purported to exist for the good of the masses, but in reality it was a dictatorship in which a few elite figures and pampered athletes lead lives of luxury and everyone else were peasants. Similarly, Iran claims to be a democracy, and holds regular elections to maintain that facade. No reasonably informed person would identify it as anything but a theocracy.
I could go on for a very long time on points such as this. Do not confuse socialism with totalitarian regimes that bent it to their will in order to achieve power. Just as CAGW advocates bend that meme to their will form both sides of the spectrum. They are the enemy, regardless of the political cloak they wear, and we would be complete fools to lose the fight against them while we bicker among ourselves.
Since we skeptics are in such a small (100-97 = 3%) minority, surely we deserve special protected status just like other “minorities”?
I’ve got one for Gail (from whom we have not heard from lately); you know those “Social Solutions International” ppl contracted by the FCC to do a ‘survey’ on how the population is served by ‘media’ (all media, by the looks of it), and in particular, how certain parts of the population might just be “under-served” by media? We find the ‘roots’ from where may have sprung:
Above from here.
And a Google search for federally-related contracts awarded to SSI.
.
It’d been funnier if someone had icicles held in each ear and the caption reading, “You can hold them in your ears so you don’t have to hear a denier say I told you so.”
That would have been funny and a lot less hate filled.
They really do hate, don’t they?
cn
New York Times needs to go the way of the dinosaurs.
Mike McMillan,
Part of required training of the exterminators when a group of people are to be exterminated is to make the exterminate-es something less than human. This is done all the time.
The socialists who want to implement their wealth redistribution scheme called Global Warming, have now to get the obstacles out of the way of implementation. So what are the obstacles?
1) The facts. I don’t have to describe the poverty of facts in support of AGW, you all know them better than I do.
2) People who report the facts. That is you Anthony. You and your linked array of skeptics.
3) Money. Money is always needed and not having it is an obstacle. Enough said.
4) Non-compliant media. The media is generally compliant but there is some that don’t tow the line.
There may be others.
How do you get rid of those pesky people?
According to the cartoon, we have some insight how far these wealth redistributing AGW liars will go to remove their obstacles… Just as is done when grooming the exterminators to see the victims as worthless beasts, parasites, or subhumans. Once this is in common parlance, who possibly could offer an objection to marginalizing these subhumans?
The cartoon is not funny. It is a disturbing reflection of a stated practical necessity to get rid of people who are in the way of the “common welfare”, the socialist agenda.
davidmhoffer,
All socialist states end up as totalitarian, c/w phony elections and judges and state-run religions.
If you want to make the case that it is the totalitarianism that is the problem, ok fine but that is always what socialism brings. Socialism never works so people become desperate and yield their personal freedoms and their institutional freedoms to the phony elite who become corrupt.
I say there is a fundamental flaw in the notion that people collectively have rights and collectively enjoy the collective benefits of the jointly held rights. It was a bad experiment that failed and killed millions. something around 262,000,000 souls. All the totalitarians of the last 110 years started off as socialists, were put in power by socialists, named themselves socialists, and murdered millions in the name of socialism.
Now in order to advance the wealth redistribution scheme of AGW, we must act “in the collective interest of all”. That means against the interests of individuals. In the case of the cartoon, against the interests of people like me, Anthony, Roy, Monckton etc.
AGW is a major tenant of the Earth God religion of the socialists.
It is the single constant motivating attribute of nearly every single Global Warming demagogue.
Kill AGW the whole green movement collapses into simple planet husbandry and with it the trumped up snot-nosed moral superiority of those who put the earth above mankind.
This issue IS the big enchilada. There really isn’t any other.
The first time I read the term Climate Parasite was on Dr. Roy Spencer’s site and was recommended as a substitute to his “Climate Nazi” term. NAZI resonates with early boomers but says nothing to the rest of todays generations. Global Warming is the term understood by everyone above 12. I would like to think that this subject could be discussed without name calling but our society has changed and everyone seems to described by their belief system. After all, Climate Parasitism is a religion!
Paul Westhaver;
I say there is a fundamental flaw in the notion that people collectively have rights and collectively enjoy the collective benefits of the jointly held rights.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..
Yeah, that whole “of the people, by the people, for the people” thing that democracies are founded upon should just go in the garbage.
110 years of exclusively socialist dictatorships? You are a victim of confirmation bias, the facts are otherwise. Egypt is currently a dictatorship, previously a democracy. Iran is a dictatorship (theocracy) formerly a monarchist dictatorship. Turkey is a democracy edging toward a theocracy. Russia was briefly a democracy and is now for all intents and purposes, a dictatorship. Again, I could go on for a very long time. You’re seeing the facts that fit your world view and just pretending (to yourself I am guessing) that facts to the contrary don’t exist.
You are committing the same sin that warmist scientists make. I can see why Richard doesn’t want to bother with you anymore.
Gentlemen and Lady, let us not forget what this war is all about: carbon dioxide is not the root cause of the observed global warming from 1980 to 1997.This thread got too warm against each other (pun intended). We need to direct our energies to defeating those such as Little Mikey Mann and his ilk. We need to pull together and develop a strategy to win the war. That strategy should include facts and more facts. Eventually, truth will out.
Revkin has added some additional thoughts at his tumblr blog:
“Both are great attention getters, and were utterly stupid if the goal was do accomplish anything other than inflaming and dividing people on an important issue. And that would be a reprehensible goal.”
========================
Revkin has no problem labeling others as “climate-change deniers”. Which both inflames and divides, more than any other issue regarding climate change. By his own words his actions are reprehensible.
Revkin, clean up your own act. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BbGvS9EXtw
Feeble attempts at humour is still not a crime where I live. Leave them to it and give it the attention is deserves. None
re: davidmhoffer says February 23, 2014 at 8:37 pm
Egypt is currently a dictatorship, previously a democracy
One is forced to ask: Under Morsi? Only if one led a cloistered existence, completely unawares of what took place during that short time ‘democracy reined’ after Mubarak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_Egypt
.
That was just plain embarrassing. Unfunny and badly drawn. Best ignored as being the product of someone with a small imagination and no way of expressing it coherently.
davidmhoffer says:
February 23, 2014 at 7:20 pm
Do not confuse socialism with totalitarian regimes that bent it to their will in order to achieve power.
============
Agreed. Paul you are pissing into the wind. There are plenty of socialist regimes that have done good and plenty of capitalist regimes that have done bad.
What sets truly evil governments apart from the rest is the notion that they are above error. This is the evil in climate science. The notion that the science is settled, that there is no possibility of error.
No other branch of science makes any such claim. Mathematics, which is arguably the best developed of all the sciences, recognizes that what we know is small in comparison to what we don’t know. How then can any science that uses mathematics claim certainty?
It is the certainty of Climate Science, that it is above question that created the danger. It is the “divine right” of Popes, dressed up in scientific language. From this grew the Inquisition, and one of the greatest evils of history. The evil continue to this day, a wall of silence surrounding sexual abuse, wrapped in Priest clothing.
So now in place of the Inquisition we have Climate Science. Un-believers are replaced by Deniers. We still torture and abuse; now the victims are data and truth. All is acceptable in the name of saving the planet. To save their souls we had to kill their bodies.
_Jim;
One is forced to ask: Under Morsi? Only if one led a cloistered existence, completely unawares of what took place during that short time ‘democracy reined’ after Mubarak.
Which underscores my point.
The most dangerous person on the planet is one that is convinced they are right, and are acting in the name of a noble cause. there is no crime they will not commit in the name of their cause.
Mark T says:
February 23, 2014 at 7:10 pm
I find Revkin’s responses disappointing, though not unexpected. Every post he makes is about inflaming and dividing opinion. He regularly does exactly what his high and mightiness now seems to think is reprehensible – he cares not one whit about those that disagree with him, and his language regarding them reflects exactly that.
========
Agreed. In a long post, this deserved to be your lead.
Mark T says:
February 23, 2014 at 7:16 pm
Labels. Give an engineer a label maker and everyone will have proper labels by the end of the year.
=====
Given an engineer a label maker and you will find the label maker is soon labelled as a “label maker”.
An honest question for you climate scientists of both persuasions. Can someone please provide one PRACTICAL enhancement of the human condition that has emanated from the BILLIONS already spent on this climate scientist research/discipline? I’m serious. Name just one.
David M. Hoffer: Although not a citizen of the USA myself, you may want to recall: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” You may also want to remember that the USA is the ONLY democracy that is founded on this principle. No other democracy in the world has anything that comes even close. As far as I am aware, all other democracies in the world have individual rights conferred by the state. The same state also puts limits on these rights. If you want to play with facts, do some digging. Pick a democracy. And read that country’s constitution. For Russia, Egypt, Iran, Turkey etc. etc., again, do some digging yourself and keep a sceptical eye on the supposed facts. The last time Russia was a democracy was when? Really? Do you really think the “oprichnik” really left the reins of power in the hands of “the people”?
Could this, your own words, apply to you, instead: “You’re seeing the facts that fit your world view and just pretending (to yourself I am guessing) that facts to the contrary don’t exist.” (8:37pm)
Joe Prins;
David M. Hoffer: Although not a citizen of the USA myself
Neither am I. You unwittingly made my point for me btw, but I see no reason to attempt explaining it to you.
SasjaL says:
February 23, 2014 at 6:26 pm
Richard Courtney,
Here we go …
* “Socialism” and “Communism” are the children of Karl Marx.
**************************************************************************************************88
Socialism was around long before Karl Marx. When Karl Marx was young a socialist by the name of Owen who was a wealthy business man set up a socialist society in America. It failed after 2 years. The Pilgrims who settled America were socialist and they nearly starved themselves to death. Even Plato’s Republic advocated a form of socialism.
Marx and Engels wrote the Communist Manifesto which was a form of socialism but where the State would control Capital and distribute wealth amongst the workers. As we know from history this did not work. Marx also advocated violence so that the whole world would become communist and then his idea of Utopia would come into existence. Violence is used to subdue those who do not toe the communist doctrine.
Meanwhile fascism is a right wing idea where you still have capitalism of sorts. This is where large corporations control the economics but in turn these corporations are controlled by government. That way if these corporations don’t toe the government line then they will be given away to another corporation. This happens in the US of A today and Russia and various other countries. Adolph was not against capitalism and that is why he is seen as right wing the same with Muss.
Totalitarian regimes can be left wing or right wing. Heck they can be dictatorships or Monarchies Tribalism is a type of totalitarian regime (Just ask Mugabe in Zimbabwe).
The interesting aspect is where left and right came from. It was in France when those that supported the monarch would stand on the right and those who wanted change would stand on the left. These days the right are those who support individuality and the left collectivism.
David M Hoffer: Must be the Michael Mann doctrine. Have this hockey stick, will not divulge any data nor facts. Absolutely great argument.
Joe Prins;
The assertion was made that all dictatorship in the last 110 years emerged from socialism. I refuted it with several examples. Someone yaps about Egypt never having been a democracy. Ok fine, it went from dictatorship to pseudo democracy to theocracy to dictatorship, no socialism in the mix. Then you whine that Russia wasn’t a democracy. If you want to use that as a measuring stick, it was never socialist either, it went from czarist monarchy to dictatorship with a brief experiment in communism in between which was even briefer than the brief experiment after communism with democracy which then turned into dictatorship. If you want to erase the brief experiment with democracy from the pages of history for its brevity, then you must erase the brief experiment with communism as well.
Further, I provided examples. Africa is rife with dictatorships that did not evolve from socialism, and so is the middle east. Jordan, Syria, Qatar, UEA, Saud Arabia, Iran, none of them spawned by socialism.
Then there’s he claim that only the US confers the kinds of rights on people that their constitution does. Laughable. I used that quote because it sums up liberal democracies fairly well, and you can argue until the cows come home that those words don’t exist in other countries, the fact is that in principle liberal democracies are very similar.
The argument was that all dictatorships in the last 110 years emerged from socialism, and that idea is so utterly absurd that it bother me a great deal that anyone would try and defend it.
Joe Prins;
David M Hoffer: Must be the Michael Mann doctrine. Have this hockey stick, will not divulge any data nor facts. Absolutely great argument.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I provided facts and examples which argued against, inadvertently proving my point. Do you expect me to systematically document the roots of all dictatorships over the last 110 years to satisfy your craving for data and facts? A few examples that make the point are insufficient? The argument is ludicrous on its face as anyone with even a passing knowledge of modern history knows. Having been provided with the facts, the best you can do is claim I provide none?
LOL.
Joe Prins,
I was busy but thanks for your correction of david mhoffer’s attempt at wit concealed as knowledge wherein he confused a quote from a President as the Declaration of Independence.
And Steve B, fantastic and funny.
Remember folks, it is the green socialists who are out to kill you. After they dumb down your kids, devalue your savings , steal your property, take your children, take your money, then tell you not to pray. Then they will take your lives.
Paul Westhaver;
I was busy but thanks for your correction of david mhoffer’s attempt at wit concealed as knowledge wherein he confused a quote from a President as the Declaration of Independence.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I attributed it to neither and confused it with neither. It is a quote that sums up nicely the manner in which liberal democracies conduct their affairs,
I love the New York Times! They make our case for us, making sure this gets wide distribution.
Upon further examination it is offensive. The NYT’s needs to apologize and admit gw alarmism is a hoax so we can move on to efficiency for real reasons like being cheap or not wanting countries that hate us to profit.
the answer is stop looking, reading, purchasing , the printed media . internet news papers,GOV’T propaganda news ,ABC BBC and you will be back to normal
Mike Smith says:
February 23, 2014 at 7:27 pm
“Since we skeptics are in such a small (100-97 = 3%) minority, surely we deserve special protected status just like other “minorities”?”
The Left has an answer for that: “The intolerant deserve no tolerance.” So, as we are concentrated evil in their eyes, and won’t tolerate Greenpeace, Mann, WWF, McKibben going on their merry thievish ways, we deserve no tolerance. See how that works?
Gary Hladik:
Thankyou for one of the few helpful comments. It is at February 23, 2014 at 4:55 pm.
You say
Yes. Indeed, you summarise my objections to the ultra-right loonies who have been posting in this thread. They label as “socialist” anything they don’t like.
This labelling is a normal tactic of the ultra-right: in times past they labelled as “Jewish” anything they didn’t like.
History shows there have been totalitarian governments of all political kinds. Indeed, this argument started because an anonymous right-wing (or pretending to be right-wing) troll posted a list of totalitarian governments and made a ludicrous assertion that they are all “socialist”.
I am willing to accept the definitions of right and left provided by wicki because they are the generally accepted definitions; i.e.
Richard
andrewmharding:
You have posted your view of the execrable Margaret Thatcher at February 23, 2014 at 5:17 pm and I have posted my view of her. Discussion of those different views would be off-topic here.
However, Thatcher started the AGW scare for reasons of personal political advantage and she dropped it when it had fulfilled its usefulness to her.
Richard
I thought it was a little dig at all those AGW/Climate Change supporters, who would like to kill, torture, imprison those they disagree with, but fortunately the law stops them, and the facts have and will continue to prove them wrong …
Bob, NikFromNYC, Kate Forney, highflight56433, Chad Wozniak, DirkH and john Robertson:
I am replying to all of you in this one post to avoid need for duplication and to avoid thread bombing..
Bob, your daft post at February 23, 2014 at 4:58 pm asks me:
I merely use the normally accepted understandings of political left and right whereas you pretend that is “dumb” by using neo-fasc1st misrepresentations.
I accept the definitions of right and left described by wicki because they are the generally accepted definitions; i.e.
NikFromNYC, at February 23, 2014 at 4:59 pm you ask
Yes, of course, because it was and neo-naz11ism is. Only neonaz1 propaganda pretends otherwise.
Kate Forney, I am glad that at February 23, 2014 at 5:13 pm you agree with me when I say
You mis-state my “terminology”. I use the generally accepted terminology as described in the wicki account I have quoted and linked above in this post.
Chad Wozniak, your post at February 23, 2014 at 5:36 pm introduces your own terminology to make ‘angels on a pin’ distinctions between the three most infamous fasc1sts in history. Your personal definitions are not likely to convince anybody and only serve to confuse (deliberately?).
DirkH at February 23, 2014 at 5:40 pm you ask me
Your question yet again displays your appalling ignorance of both history and politics.
Temushin (aka Genghis Khan) was a right-wing mass murderer who predated Karl Marx by several centuries. If you search the web you will be able to find much information on both these characters.
john Robertson, I agree much of what you say in your post at February 23, 2014 at 6:07 pm. However, I do not agree that this argument is “meaningless”.
When any group is demonised the result is always horrific. Religious beliefs, political beliefs, racial characteristics, caste, social status, and ethnicity have all been used as excuse for such demonization. This thread is about such demonization of AGW-sceptics, and the ultra-right is using it to demonise “socialists”. I am trying to defend against horror.
highflight56433, I see that you have continued your egregious behaviour and lies in your post at February 23, 2014 at 5:33 pm.
You say
YOU made the “accusations”, not me. I objected to them.
YOU provided the off-topic quotation which provides the lie that “socialists are responsible for the death of 262,000,000 people”.
But you repeat your lie saying
Choosing to quote in this forum the lie of some other without reservation is REPEATING THE LIE IN THIS FORUM.
Claiming you did not make the lie in this forum is another of your lies. But lies are a stock-in-trade for anonymous trolls like you. Indeed, your choice of anonymity provides a coward’s shield over which you throw your lies.
You lied. You have not withdrawn the lie. Withdraw the lie and apologise
Richard
SasjaL:
re your post at February 23, 2014 at 6:26 pm.
Socialism predates Marx by decades. Indeed, I am a socialist bit I am not a Marxist.
The remainder of your post displays similar ignorance.
Richard
ferdberple:
I am copying your wise post at February 23, 2014 at 9:16 pm to ensure that any who missed it get another chance to read it.
You rightly say
The most dangerous person on the planet is one that is convinced they are right, and are acting in the name of a noble cause. there is no crime they will not commit in the name of their cause.
Richard
Revkin regularly highlights the so called humor of cartoonist Marc Roberts at his blog. I don’t get it. If Nature worship leads to a hatred for ones fellow man it’s a pointless pursuit.
http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/22/more-antarctic-ice-loss-and-a-co2toon/
It’s pretty adolescent.
Anyone who trusts wiki for accurate information is in trouble.
Johan i Kanada:
At February 24, 2014 at 4:01 am you say
True. And I don’t.
I wrote
Do you not agree they are “the generally accepted definitions” and if so, why?
Or are you trying to ‘muddy the waters’.
Richard
Paul Westhaver says:
February 23, 2014 at 11:19 pm
Remember folks, it is the green socialists who are out to kill you.
=============
I worry much more about the people that are trying to save me.
Politics is but a choice between terrorists.
Most politicians and political leaders are fear mongers using terrorism.
Fear and terror are their politics and main weapons.
One must look to the Libertarian Party to find liberty.
Socialism and communism do not work…never have….never will.
cn
Chuck Nolan:
At February 24, 2014 at 5:06 am you assert
No, politics and the Rule Of Law are methods to protect use from terrorists.
In the absence of effective political and legal systems we are all at the mercy of whichever local gang leader is most powerful.
The remainder of your post is wrong because it is based on your misunderstanding which I have here refuted.
Richard
Politics and the Rule Of Law are non-terroristic if and only if they require the unanimous consent of the governed. If this is not the case, then we have no effective political and legal systems we only have elected gangs that will pillage and plunder as they see fit. They can do so because they can always claim the majority wanted them to do so.
The concept of someone “winning” an election where 57% of the voters remained at home – meaning that in the best case the “Winner” had only 21.500001% of the voters behind them flies in the face of all meanings of Rule Of Law. Coercing people to vote is not a valid option, it indicates simply another form of totalitarian state.
wsbriggs:
For clarity, I write to say I agree with your post at February 24, 2014 at 5:59 am.
Please note that I said,
In the absence of effective political and legal systems we are all at the mercy of whichever local gang leader is most powerful.
This is why pure democracy is not desirable.
Pure democracy inevitably results in mob rule.
The word “effective” is important because effective political and legal systems protect minorities from majorities. The leader of the largest majority is the most powerful gang leader in a pure democracy. Effective political and legal systems protect minorities.
And we all need to remember that few people are not in some minority of some kind.
Richard
Chuck Nolan says:
February 23, 2014 at 7:36 pm
It’d been funnier if someone had icicles held in each ear and the caption reading, “You can hold them in your ears so you don’t have to hear a denier say I told you so.”
That would have been funny and a lot less hate filled.
They really do hate, don’t they?
cn
Very funny.
Maybe better would be a cartoon of, say, Michael Mann with icicles in his ears being shown a chart of the “pause” saying, “I cant hear you, I have icicles in my ears!”
HankHenry says:
February 24, 2014 at 3:46 am
“Revkin regularly highlights the so called humor of cartoonist Marc Roberts at his blog. I don’t get it.”
I see a systematic. It seems that for NYT/Revkin, a cartoon passes as funny if somebody dies AND the cartoon has some connection to the Global Warming hoax. That’s quite insane but that’s the only pattern I see.
There we have it; the declaration of an idealist. Please, Richard, get out more … run, jog, go camping, find a hobby …
The Climate Jihadists are on the loose and inspired by their mullahs in the WH. Reason and science debate is not part of their plan.
richardscourtney says:
February 24, 2014 at 2:32 am
ferdberple:
I am copying your wise post at February 23, 2014 at 9:16 pm to ensure that any who missed it get another chance to read it.
You rightly say
The most dangerous person on the planet is one that is convinced they are right, and are acting in the name of a noble cause. there is no crime they will not commit in the name of their cause.
Richard
Ah, “right is might”,
even when it is wrong.
I suppose though that “we” (the collective folks who post at WUWT) could never agree on which “noble cause” it would be acceptable to commit some crime. Too deep a philosophical discussion I suspect.
Nonetheless, generally speaking, I agree with the above sentiment.
richardscourtney says:
February 24, 2014 at 5:14 am
Chuck Nolan:
At February 24, 2014 at 5:06 am you assert
Politics is but a choice between terrorists.
No, politics and the Rule Of Law are methods to protect use from terrorists.
In the absence of effective political and legal systems we are all at the mercy of whichever local gang leader is most powerful.
The remainder of your post is wrong because it is based on your misunderstanding which I have here refuted.
Richard
——————————————————————————
Oh, you mean an effective political and legal system like Obama and Holder.
BS
Harry Reid is a terrorist.
Al Gore is a terrorist.
Michael Mann is a terrorist.
Ted Cruz is a terrorist.
Terrorist = a person who uses lies and fear to terrorize or frighten others.
Politics, as practiced is terrorism plain and simple.
What’s your point?
cn
It’s okay, NYT is MSM – they get a free pass.
Dear Mr. Richard M.Courtney,
Calling someone a liar is over the top. You are obviously not a gentleman, but I will point to the following post from which I quoted so everyone here can see your error. Again I will lend you some help.
PAUL WESTHAVER QUOTE (from 9:31 a.m.):
Paul Westhaver says:
February 23, 2014 at 9:31 am
Anthony,
I am sure you are well aware now that your pantomimed death is not an aspiration from the greenies alone.
I maintain that the culture of death, largely overlaps with the green movement and as such influences the green movement at an operational level. The culture of death comes from left political wing.
The green death culture, the socialists, have no qualms about lying to achieve a political and social end nor do the have any qualms about killing to achieve their goals.
Look at history, the socialists are responsible for the death of 262,000,000 people in the last 110 years. See: Death by government::
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM
This cartoon should be taken very seriously by Anthony et al because this web site (WUWT) is not just about asserting true science and wonder, it is a major thorn in the side and obstacle to very evil forces that mean to have their way, come what may, even it that involves killing Mr Watts.
If you wait long enough, evil murder-oriented leftists will always show their true natures. This cartoon is just an example of what is really on the mind of the left. If they could get away with it, they would kill us all. It has happened in the past and it is happening now and it will happen again. It always starts from a socialist government and their supporters asserting some phony leftist ideal. This time it is Earth God. It always ends with mass-murder. Cambodia,, China, Germany, Ukraine etc… 262,000,000 dead at the hands of the socialist left.
Today Anthony is a cartoon vampire in the New Your Times. Tomorrow he is an obituary.
END QUOTE
Now Mr. Courtney, here is your reaction, which by the way is similar to how you treat others with your elitist condemnations.
YOUR QUOTE:
You lied. You have not withdrawn the lie. Withdraw the lie and apologise
Richard
END QUOTE
Mr. Richard M. Courtney and defenders: I do not apologize. Do everyone here a favor and end the egotistical preoccupation with yourself. Exploitation and superiority are not attractive personality traits.
I think we’re selling that Dept. of Commerce cartoon short. When you consider the source, it’s remarkably funny, especially the panel showing an dog owner using icycles as a training tool. “Whither my found object?” the dog asks, after a fruitless game of go-fetch. Even the panel showing the icycle-wielding stabber has that amusing allusion to “Cash for Clunkers.”
That the Commerce Department, of all agencies, would want to get involved in this matter at all baffles me. The manner in which it was done is even more baffling, but funner than you think, if you look beyond the gratuitous denier-death-fantasy.
Ice crystal nacht
highflight56433:
At February 24, 2014 at 7:23 am you say to me
NO!
Calling a liar a liar is being restrained. Liars like you don’t know how to be gentlemanly.
You are an anonymous liar who yet again lies in the post I am answering.
YOU posted the lie in this thread, and you did it by quoting the words of another.
Withdraw the lie and apologise.
Richard
Chuck Nolan:
You had asserted
And I replied
In response to that at February 24, 2014 at 7:13 am you say and ask me
Terror is a state of severe fear. A terrorist is not merely a person who lies to frighten others. A terrorist is a person who acts to terrorise people.
If you think those you name are terrorists then be grateful you have never been exposed to real terrorism.
And your assertion that “Politics, as practiced is terrorism plain and simple” is insane.
Your views are as divorced from reality as those of _Jim.
And my point is that we need politics and the Rule Of Law as methods to protect us from terrorists because there are naïve fools like you who are so divorced from reality that something is needed to protect you.
Richard
Look at history, the socialists are responsible for the death of 262,000,000 people in the last 110 years. See: Death by government::
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM
1. 169,202,000 Murdered: Summary and Conclusions [20th Century Democide]
I BACKGROUND
2. The New Concept of Democide [Definition of Democide]
3. Over 133,147,000 Murdered: Pre-Twentieth Century Democide
II 128,168,000 VICTIMS: THE DEKA-MEGAMURDERERS
4. 61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State
5. 35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Ant Hill
6. 20,946,000 Murdered: The Nazi Genocide State
7. 10,214,000 Murdered: The Depraved Nationalist Regime
III 19,178,000 VICTIMS: THE LESSER MEGA-MURDERERS
8. 5,964,000 Murdered: Japan’s Savage Military
9. 2,035,000 Murdered: The Khmer Rouge Hell State
10. 1,883,000 Murdered: Turkey’s Genocidal Purges
11. 1,670,000 Murdered: The Vietnamese War State
12. 1,585,000 Murdered: Poland’s Ethnic Cleansing
13. 1,503,000 Murdered: The Pakistani Cutthroat State
14. 1,072,000 Murdered: Tito’s Slaughterhouse
IV 4,145,000 VICTIMS: SUSPECTED MEGAMURDERERS
15. 1,663,000 Murdered? Orwellian North Korea
16. 1,417,000 Murdered? Barbarous Mexico
17. 1,066,000 Murdered? Feudal Russia
Steve B @: February 23, 2014 at 10:06 pm
&
richardscourtney @ February 24, 2014 at 2:16 am
I admit that I was sloppy when writing just “Socialism“, but that was not my point and obviously you both missed it (intentionally as leftist’s often do?) … I could have mentioned a lot of other types of socialisms, but I chose not to. My point was the actual link between Socialism and National Socialism. “Socialism” is much older then you both mentioned and not invented by man. Generally, it was practiced in nature with genuine success long before man.
Steve B.; “Adolph was not against capitalism and that is why he is seen as right wing the same with Muss.
– That doesn’t change their political base! Everything isn’t black and white. National Socialism still focus on the hole society, with certain limitations, just like Socialism and Communism indeed did (do) in practice! (Ever heard of Gulag and simular …?) Soviet, China and other similar collapsed regimes performed a limited version of capitalism, available exclusively for the political elite. The public realized the injustice (corruption) and this as one of several reasons, it all fell apart respectively. Socialistic systems of any kind don’t work when greed of any type are involved. Here in Sweden we have many good examples of Socialists who are strong friends of Capitalism (greed), including one of our former Prime Ministers,Göran Persson, back then also leader of the Swedish Labour Party. Also former Minister of Education and direct responsible for the low-quality school system of today that exist here, with non qualified teachers in many classrooms. (That’s one strong reason why many young people/media here believes in (C)AGW …). His association with high finance and sucking up for people like George W. Bush (together with Tony Blair) places him in right-wing politics, although he always expressed the opposite to the voters and still do. Does he belong to left or right wing politics then?
We have more direct links in Sweden between Socialism and National Socialism; The State Institute for Racial Biology (SIFR) was started in Uppsala in 1922 on behalf of the Swedish Riksdag (the supreme decision-making body in the Kingdom of Sweden), on a proposal of several socialists including Hjalmar Branting (1st socialistic PM in Sweden, 1920). The activities of this institution directly led to the policy of “racial hygiene” practiced later by the National Socialists in Germany … Involved in the operations was Svante Arrhenius, a renowned physicist and chemist (Nobel Prize in Chemistry, 1903), sometime mentioned by people who advocate AGW … During WWII, we had 14 (sic) detention camps, similar to how Guantanamo Bay Camp operates, where political and religious deviants were placed without legal review (Jews included). Some of them was finally deported to Germany … One of the main responsible for this activity was a socialist, Tage Erlander, that later become a PM. During WWII, the Swedish government was not only “in bed” with the “Third Reich“, but at the same time the Socialist Party had direct contact with the government in Soviet, despite the (still valid) expressed prohibition under our Constitution for parties to establish direct relations with foreign states. (Two of the above mentioned Swedish socialistic politicians, H. Branting and T. Erlander, are titled as “Fathers of the Nation” due to their commitment …) So socialists swing wide …
Benito M. was during a period resident in Switzerland (1902-1904) in order to avoid military service (sic) and was finally deported due to having spread revolutionary socialist propaganda (that’s not right-wing stuff …). Regarding Adolf H. & Co., the essence of the National Socialist phrase “Arbeit macht frei” is also available in most left-isms, incl. Socialism, Marxism and Communism, though not explicitly expressed in words, but well in action (again, ever heard of Gulag and others …?)
You both (and others) just have to deal with Adolf H. & Benito M. was left wing politicians in practice …
re: highflight56433 says @ 9:22 am
Did you happen to see the closing ceremony @ Sochi?
There was a large segment devoted to famous Russian writers where they had panels pop up from under the stage with portraits of these guys. The CBS announcers didn’t call out their names because there were so many. Too many to mention by name.
Here’s the kicker. The plethora of Russian writers being celebrated all had the distiction of being imprisoned and/or murdered by the state. Presumably by the Soviet State, but I guess some few by the Czarist state also.
Sochi’s closed with a dance number celebrating the lives of truth telling dissidents murdered by the soviet state.
Puts an exclamation point on your post.
I find Richard’s defense of socialist state murder disturbing. I’m not alone judging by other commenters.
Isn’t that enough to stick someone in the permanent moderation que? Wasn’t that the criteria used against me?
I’ve been an off and on commenter at WUWT since the time it was just a daily ticking off of substandard surface station siting problems.
Generally I ignore Richard. He seemed to me a bore much too in love with the sound of his own voice.
Now I’m in moderation due to the complaint of a socialism defending heckler.
That’s what they do. That’s who they are.
Mmmhg, I hope they come at night.
SasjaL:
Your post at February 24, 2014 at 9:42 am is disingenuous bollocks.
H1tler and Mussol1ni were ultra-right totalitarians. Your verbosity does niot change that reality.
Richard
highflight56433:
I see that at February 24, 2014 at 9:22 am you have again posted your despicable lies as a method to promote unjustifiable hatred.
Please say, is there any contemptible act which you would not do?
Richard
Neither Hitler nor Mussolini were totalitarians, serious analysis of the two regimes shows that clearly. They were both corporate statist regimes with the private sector left alone mostly. Thus Germany was not on war footing even after Pearl harbor, not until 1942. In 1939 German sub factories closed at 5 pm. Mussolini the same thing. He even articulated thisdistinction. Those regimes not so different from our present one, totally in the grip of the money powers as Lincoln called them.
I should have said neither ran totalitarian states. Hitler of course wanted to be dicatator but did not control every aspect of life in Germany, far from it.
Wow, what a discussion. I have to say that I really admire richardscourtney for putting up with so many wild statements and still trying to politely explain why & where they are wrong. You are really encouraging, richard, (as are lots aof other people here on wuwt)!
@ highflight56433: It makes absolutely no sense to cram all the horrors of the world together and then declare them to have been caused by whichever political idea you hate the most. The result is useless.
The “theory” of totalitarism makes only very limited sense at best. Stalinism is not the same as Hitler Fascism. The differences were important for those who had to live and attempt to survive those horrible times. Sovjet communism after Stalin was something different again, and differed from Maoism. As in climate science: It is absolutely necessary to take note of the details, find the differences and avoid by all means false analogies, correlations and simplified “explanations”. There is usually much “more to the picture than meets the eye” (Neil Young). If we want to understand things – rather than just describing them briefly and very rough – then we have to look for all those details which don´t meet the eye.
Nazi Fascism was a totally racist ideology. The Nazi idea of paradise is a society where only the “master race” would rule, others had to labor, be slaves or killed.
Sovjet Communism is an ideology based on social classes. The communist idea of paradise is a society where all people would be free and equal – all classes or other hierarchical social structures would be overcome. Whether this ultimate goal is realistic, ever achievable or not – it is definitely not the same as the Nazis dream – it is the opposite.
Sorry if I did digress from the topic (NYT cartoon) to a certain degree. But superficial equalizations (Fascist=Nazi=commi=socialist=liberal=left) just don´t go down well with me.
Richard Courtney, the labels are so mangled now that up is down.
A good example would be John Stuart Mill, a well written man of the mid 1800s.
A liberal of his age, what would we label him now.
These labels are tools to block thought and encourage infighting.
Action speaks far louder.
Our modern progressives, what are they? They seem to lie by default, I compare their effect on civil society to rust.
Rust being very progressive.
Socialist is an awful broad spectrum, every community organization is socialist by definition.
So is any church that provided charity.
Canada is a socialist society.
So fighting with those who blame socialists for all our ills is pointless.
Most who accuse have 3 fingers pointing their way.
Each has their own mental picture of this beast, I can’t read minds.
But the current activities of those who would govern us, are writ plain.
The cost of their help has long exceeded any benefit they offer.
Those bandits and foolish officers they seek to sell us protection from, are they.
This is the comedy of a common language, we speak words, but use individual imagery to make sense of the meaning.
I give you an example; Bread; What picture do you see?
I was raised on home baked brick bread.
Sorry not lecturing, just wandering,
Science demands we define our terms, otherwise discovery is impossible.
Politics seems to be about evading definition.
I do agree, singling out scapegoats, with an all encompassing label, is the tool of those who desire to conquer through division.
I agree with Pat. Isn’t the irony of stabbing a “climate change denier” with an icicle a fairly clear criticism of the warmist brigade? I think it’s funny.
David G:
Having had several people claim that H1tler and Mussol1ni were not left wing, at February 24, 2014 at 11:14 am you say
Incredible!
The degree of historical revisionism by the ultra-right is truly amazing.
And at February 24, 2014 at 11:16 am you add
Quite so. The ultra-right likes small government: indeed, that is why they are on the right. But the desires of those in power were all the direction needed to control whatever needed to be controlled at every point throughout society: you see, there was this organisation called the Gestapo …
Richard
john robertson:
Thankyou for your post at February 24, 2014 at 12:22 pm which includes
There is much wisdom in your “wandering”.
As you say, definitions do matter and that is why I am enraged by those who attempt to redefine evil-doers from the past as being party to those whom it is desired to scapegoat in the present.
We need to object to such scapegoating whomever it is aimed at whether we agree with them or not: first they came for …
Richard
richardscourtney says (February 24, 2014 at 1:02 am): “I am willing to accept the definitions of right and left provided by wicki because they are the generally accepted definitions…”
Thanks for the reference, Richard. That explains your reply to Kate (and others).
I’m not so sure about the “generally accepted” part, however. Though it claims “general consensus”, the article cites only 4 limited-scope references for the “left” and only 1 for the “right”. The rest of the article illustrates in some detail how fluid the terms “left” and “right” have been historically and in contemporary usage. And as we’ve seen in this thread,not all commenters agree with the “consensus”. Perhaps we can get get John Cook to do another survey. 🙂
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/08/28/cooks-97-climate-consensus-paper-crumbles-upon-examination/
“Consensus” or not, I fail to understand a “political spectrum” that puts both “anarchists” and “communists” on one side of center (what could they possibly have in common?), with monarchists (!), libertarians–excuse me, “right”-libertarians (?)–and National Socialists on the other. In the article, I was unable to discern just what is being measured on this one-dimensional axis, i.e. what increases as one moves right and decreases as one moves left. Richard, can you help me out here, either with an explanation or a reference?
Thinking more about the problem, it seemed to me that we would need at least two axes in order to separate out the more “libertarian” vs “totalitarian” varieties of “left” and “right” ideologies. Lo and behold, the wiki article references just such a graph, the so-called “Nolan Chart”, which would seem to be a considerable improvement on the oversimplified left/right spectrum:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolan_chart
Hmm. I’ll have to look into this Nolan thingy some more…
It is with some trepedation that I comment on this right vs. left quagmire.
Here is what I see:
Civil society vs. uncivil: socieities where rule of law, and limits on what laws do vs. uncivil socieites where the tools of governemnt are used to suppress dissent. Uncivil socieites tolerate kleptocratic leadership, as we have seen in North Korea, 1930’s Germany, apparently in Ukraine, most certainly in Venezuela and Zimbabwe. In “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” , a comprehensive pre-PC history of that horrible period of history, one of the major themes is that Hitler’s regime was fueled in no small part by the theft of assets from its political opponents/victims. That standard- the one of degree state thieving and suppressionis allowed to fester- is more meaningful than ‘left or right’.
Once your political views have lead to the conclusion “.. and therefore, I must Kill my Enemies!” it is time to go back through your working to find the error. I accept there will be rare cases where this is impossible. The present example isn’t one of them.
Dear Mr. Richard S. Courtney,
Well Mr. Richard S. Courtney, a pronounced socialist. It certainly figures in as you make your way through the comments demonizing who you disagree with, all while pretending to be educated. An educated well learned person would recognize and loath the evils of socialism and would certainly never so impolitely castigate as freely as you do.
Just as the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church so proclaimed socialism to be as evil as evil can get. “You understand, venerable brethren, that We speak of that sect of men who, under various and almost barbarous names, are called socialists (which you and your friends here proclaim to be), communists, or nihilists, and who, spread over all the world, and bound together by the closest ties in a wicked confederacy, no longer seek the shelter of secret meetings, but, openly and boldly marching forth in the light of day, strive to bring to a head what they have long been planning—the overthrow of all civil society whatsoever.”
May I repeat; Mr. Richard M. Courtney and your socialist defenders: I do not apologize. Do everyone here a favor and end your egotistical preoccupation with yourself. Your exploitation and false superiority are not attracting any friends. Some folks here might make a case that you and your friends are not welcome on our soil. We have a saying about knowing your enemy. I recall Pb poisoning may have led to your country’s embarrassing defeat. Then the very freedom you despise saved you from the socialism you now embrace. I imagine some people might think you and your friends are an insult to humanity.
Cheers! The icicles are melting!
One of the reasons I find Mr. Courtney a great ally in the climate change debate is specifically for the fact that his political views differ from many skeptics. So I find no reason to attack him for it, we can agree to disagree here and focus on climate alarmism. He should be embraced and not attacked for such intellectual honesty on the climate change issue.
@Tomfromgermany –
I think you are mistaken in saying that the ideals of socialism and Nazism are fundamentally different. What you refer to that is different is the rhetoric surrounding them, which in either case is to manipulate people into submitting to the collective will, which in every case is the rulers’ will. The effects are the same, including plenty of racism under socialism – witness Stalin’s genocide of any number of ethnic minorities in the Soviet Union. Not only this, but Soviet Russia in practice had a small crony capitalist elite, the nomenklatura, very similar to the Krupps and I.G. Farbens of Nazi Germany. And don’t forget, the Nazis regularly and happily sang these words from Beethoven’s Ode to Joy: “Alle Menschen werden Brueder/Wo dein sanfter Fluegel weilt”.
There is no substantive difference between Nazism and Bolshevism/Communism in practice; moreover, as I’ve pointed out elsewhere here at WUWT, the ideological origins of Nazism, including its anti-Semitism, originated with Marxian doctrine – for Anton Drexler, the founder of the NSDAP, the Jews were Germany’s bourgeois class enemy.
“Poptech says:
February 24, 2014 at 3:35 pm
One of the reasons I find Mr. Courtney a great ally in the climate change debate is specifically for the fact that his political views differ from many skeptics. So I find no reason to attack him for it, we can agree to disagree here and focus on climate alarmism. He should be embraced and not attacked for such intellectual honesty on the climate change issue.”
[trimmed. Mod]
highflight56433,
Your comment is both idiotic and juvenile.
@Hunter 2:13
thank you, that is the truth of it.
Matters not what label the bandits cloak themselves in, their destructive behaviour always identifies their true nature.
The do-gooder is always here to help you; out of your freedom and property.
No, no, you folks have it all wrong: the cartoon is “edgy”.
@Doug Proctor, you wrote “GW is a falsely presented prediction of calamity on a planetary scale based on current human industrial activity, which purpose it is to deindustrialize and deconsumerizee the modern world while limiting the industrial and, hence, consumerist growth on the non-First World countries. ”
Don’t forget that those pushing GW will profit personally from it. To me that is evidence enough to betray their motivation.
@ Chad Wozniak
Which of the “Nomenklatura” that was in power during the Stalin years was still around at the time of the collapse? Who of them managed to get his or her position firmly attached to his family? Nazism is based on and has its ultimate justification in a racist society. When they sang “Alle Menschen werde Brüder,…” they only had their own race in mind. By the way: How often, in which circumstances and by whom would this song have been sung? To my knowledge the nazi system took great care to alter even the texts of operas so that the performance befitted their system.
You can go on and blend communism, marxism, socailism, nazism, and whatever you want to blend. It just does not make sense. You will not understand either system if you look at them through your tainted spectacles. If you willfully brush aside differences by denounicing them as merely superficial and propagendistic – well then you enter the realm of wishful thinking. How do you want to assess ideologies if not by the claims they make? How do you want to assess policies and strategies if nor by the theories upon which they are based and the consequences they have? To the nazi all evel on earth was caused by the jews. They spoke of “jewish marxist capitalists”. If Nazism in your view “originated” in Marxism, then you can also claim it “originated” in christianity. What sense does that make? The mad painter gathered all sorts of ideas and willfully brought them together. For the Nazis there were even “jewish marxist capitalists”, they phantasiced of a “jewish communist capitalist” conspiracy to destroy Germany…
The SS men who ran the KZ, the doctors and “scientists” who undertook the experiments – they all sang christmas chorals. So what?
I will not continue this exchange any more, as it seems to be an attempt to highjack the thread.
I fully agree with hunter and James McClellan – and all others who favour sanity over fanatism, reason over hate, humanity over ideology.
Chill people. The joke is on warmists. This is a hilarious satirical cartoon that captures the zeal of prominent warmists very well. The irony is that that denier is making the point that there would not be so many icicles if GW were not a hoax. For this obvious statement the heretic was dispatched.
Brilliant!
I see they are portraying the “climate denier” as a fat cat businessman.
Another one of their built in biases.
@tomfromgermany –
I stand by my comments. A further thought: Marxism itself is inherently racist, in its doctrine of the class struggle, because in almost every society on Earth, social strata and classes coincide to some extent with race and ethnicity. And this is borne out in both Soviet Communism and German Nazism – which again, let us not forget, originated in Marxist thinking, however far it later distanced itself rhetorically from that.
richardscourtney says: February 24, 2014 at 10:54 am
Dream on …! Uncomfortable history of all times “improved” by ignoring or falsify – common left rhetoric … (Same tactics used by snake oil salesmen in climate science – Mann, Al Gore, Hansen, Suzuki etc …)
“Mark and two Cats says:
February 24, 2014 at 8:45 am
Ice crystal nacht”
Brief and brilliant – what we are seeing here, sadly, is the CAGW camp’s (kamp . sorry) echo of “Kristallnacht”.
It doesn’t matter what “ism” or “ology” or “igarchy” is behind the CAGW madness – the point is, they are intent on taking OUR (and our descendants’) money, and making it THEIRS. We should be less worried about isms and more worried about isn’ts, as in, the money I had yesterday in my wallet (bank account, what-have-you) ISN’T there anymore, as it went to pay for the environmental taxes (EEG tax on EU electricity, local tax on that (!), etc.,etc.).
This is a question of greed. We need to fight that, not each other. Have a look at the UN and WEF sites (www.weforum.com, for instance) and see what they have planned for us this year….we’re just rats in a maze to them…and they’d look at that as an insult to the rats….
“When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser” – Socrates
– – – – – – – – – –
Paul Westhaver & highflight56433,
I am late to a wonderful thread party that was largely initiated by you in those first comments by you.
I fundamentally agree with all of your many many comments IF a more fundamental conceptual distinction is made regarding ‘socialism’ as opposed to individualism.
The more fundamental distinction wrt socialism is the concept of ‘collectivism’. Collectivism places the greatest value in a society on putting individual resources and the individual lives themselves into a subservient role. All socialism is collectivist, and all collectivism is socialist. But, collectivism is not essentially a political concept, as socialism is, it has some elements of a moral concept. It is a moral concept in that it says to value one thing (groups) over another (an individual). Here is the thing to watch out for in the discussion you have carried out, if collectivism is given as the moral basis of a government action then it does not matter what the government calls itself or says in its self-serving PR, it IS SOCIALIST.
The CAGW agenda is using collectivist moral values to achieve all of its ends. Look for collectivist moral arguments in CAGW, there are many, then you have clearer evidence of one-for-one correspondence of CAGW activity with socialism.
Thanks again for your thread dialog. I wish I could have been ‘live’ in it.
John