From the “don’t trust but verify” department comes the revelation that the Obama administration went into COP15 negotiation with spy help.
WASHINGTON — The National Security Agency monitored the communications of other governments ahead of and during the 2009 United Nations climate negotiations in Copenhagen, Denmark, according to the latest document from whistleblower Edward Snowden.
The document, with portions marked “top secret,” indicates that the NSA was monitoring the communications of other countries ahead of the conference, and intended to continue doing so throughout the meeting. Posted on an internal NSA website on Dec. 7, 2009, the first day of the Copenhagen summit, it states that
“Analysts here at NSA, as well as our Second Party partners, will continue to provide policymakers with unique, timely, and valuable insights into key countries’ preparations and goals for the conference, as well as the deliberations within countries on climate change policies and negotiation strategies.”
“Second Party partners” refers to the intelligence agencies of the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, with which the U.S. has an intelligence-sharing relationship. “While the outcome of the Copenhagen Climate Change Conference remains uncertain, signals intelligence will undoubtedly play a significant role in keeping our negotiators as well informed as possible throughout the 2-week event,” the document says.
The Huffington Post published the documents Wednesday night in coordination with the Danish daily newspaper Information, which worked with American journalist Laura Poitras.
Read the full document here.(PDF)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/29/snowden-nsa-surveillance-_n_4681362.html
h/t to WUWT reader MichaelWiseGuy
NSA and Obama [were] more interested in staying up on the propaganda plan and not nearly so interested in the truth about GW.
Funny that the Democrats are the most vocal opponents of things like the Patriot act, as well as related issues, yet also the worst abusers.
Mark
Woo hoo! An excuse to post this awesome Remy video:
Mark T says:
January 29, 2014 at 9:07 pm
Funny that the Democrats are the most vocal opponents of things like the Patriot act, as well as related issues, yet also the worst abusers.
Mark
—————————–
That’s because they think others would abuse it as much as they would.
Hardly a surprise. One of the most public events in the political calendar when it happened.
It was the watershed. The last throw of the warmists dice. Failed, thankfully.
At sometime in the future if the USA recovers enough liberty to be called a Republic, then Global Warming may be seen a lead tactic of the American Socialist Workers Party led by Clinton, Obama, and their henchmen. The Republican party will be studied as a classic example of a Political Party that committed suicide and disappeared within a little more than a decade, and there will be Snowdon boulevards, highways, streets, schools, etc. throughout the nation. And perhaps the study of climate might even become a legitimate science.
I’m surprised by the surprise here. The NSA is an intelligence-gathering organization. One of the first tenets of intelligence is that one never knows what information might be useful, so get everything you can. Those delegates might talk about other things than the weather at those conferences.
The laws affecting intelligence-gathering by NSA, CIA, etc., are regarding collecting targeted information on US citizens inside the United States. Every person working with one of those agencies, whether government civilian, military, or contractor, must take a refresher course on Executive Order 12333 every year without fail. However, if you are not a United States citizen, you are not protected by those laws.
So they gather information on non-citizens of the United States at conferences where national policies are discussed. It’s what those agencies exist to do.
Tonight in 20 minutes (10 PM Pacific, 1 AM Eastern), Coast to Coast AM radio will be interviewing:
Space historian Robert Zimmerman will discuss the fraud and dishonesty which has permeated the sciences of climate and environmental studies including how scientists at NASA and NOAA have consistently manipulated the temperature records.
I’m surprised that obama hasn’t droned Snowden yet.
The NSA is collecting this comment as I speak, right ?
So, as usual I will not say anything, or did I just ?
There is something people really need to understand: If you are a public official engaged in any sort of official political negotiations, any communications you engage in over the public communications networks that is not officially secured by your government is subject to intercept by any number of countries. Dozens of nations are going to attempt to the best of theri ability to intercept such communications. That said, everyone in that sort of capacity SHOULD be fully aware of that. Their government should be driving it into their head that unless they are on a *secure* government circuit, they are on an unsecured public circuit that is subject to intercept. We drive that into the heads of even the lowest private in the Army. There is a difference between a secure line and an unsecured line and ANY conversation over ANY unsecured like is subject to intercept by ANYONE at ANY time. This should not be news to anyone in any official capacity and hasn’t been for over 50 years but sadly, it might be *news* to our uninformed general public.
In other words, not only was the US “spying” on such communications but most likely so was Germany, France, the UK, Canada, Australia, China, Russia and damned near everyone else.
I recall a major flop at Copenhagen… I recall Climategate. And a Green disaster.
I doubt the NSA info was much help…. unless the Hadley CRU insider that outed the emails was an NSA plant….nah. …maybe?
crosspatch says:
January 29, 2014 at 10:14 pm
In other words, not only was the US “spying” on such communications but most likely so was Germany, France, the UK, Canada, Australia, China, Russia and damned near everyone else.
===========
Now that I’m getting old, I’m kinda flattered that my communications are being monitored.
It must be some boring work, maybe I’ll learn some of the “keywords” to throw into conversation so that the drones come within shotgun range.
> rogerknights says:
> January 29, 2014 at 9:45 pm
> Tonight in 20 minutes (10 PM Pacific, 1 AM Eastern),
> Coast to Coast AM radio will be interviewing:
> Space historian Robert Zimmerman will discuss the
> fraud and dishonesty which has permeated the sciences
> of climate and environmental studies including how
> scientists at NASA and NOAA have consistently
> manipulated the temperature records.
One of the few media sources I do not want on our side. They’re the radio version of “National Enquirer”. Go to Youtube.com and type in
coast to coast am
in the search bar. You get interviews about Annunaki, Ancient Aliens, Lost Empire of Atlantis, alien abduction, Bases on the Moon, etc. And that’s just the first page of search results. Associating climate realism with Art Bell, etc, is one way to discredit our cause.
u.k. (us)
Too funny.
They are looking at you while you type also.
Germans got upset when they learnt that NSA has been spying on Cancellor Merkel by listening her mobile phone for a decade through devices in US Embassy in Berlin. That’s why Snowden is regarded as a hero in Europe.
Apparently US embassies all over the world are used as phone intercept stations.
Canada even said they monitor all international communications. Every country does to the extent of their ability to do so.
To me the real question is, why couldn’t the Germans, with all their technical expertise even provide their head of state with a secure phone? Would you buy a car from those people?
She is provided with a secure phone and I am sure she assumes that everything she says on her unsecured private phone is being monitored by someone. This is NOT as big a deal as the media is making seem to be. The stories are relying on the fact that most people are ignorant.
Ok, here’s the deal with Snowden:
1. MONTHS before he took the job with Booze Allen & Hamilton he started shopping for journalists. This is not a case of someone who worked with NSA for a long time seeing something that bothered them and blew the whistle. Snowden decided he was going to go in to NSA and steal as much data as he could before he even took the job.
2. When he got there, he lied to co-workers saying he needed their login credentials to work on their computers. Then then used their credentials to log in as those people and steal copies of all the data they had access to.
3. He worked there for less than 90 days.
crosspatch says:
January 29, 2014 at 10:37 pm
Canada even said they monitor all international communications. Every country does to the extent of their ability to do so.
==========
Yep, where is the line between privacy and “security”
It is only going to get smaller, way smaller, in our future.
I just wonder if Snowden knows about the Climate gate Scandal and the names that keep surfacing. Just Bout the time.
Names that keep popping up in the news.
Prince Phillip
Nobel Peace Prize
President Obama
President Clinton
VP Al Gore
Others
Phil Jonez
Michael Mann
EPA and Environmental Org.
EPA dir. John Beale
Stefon Rahmstort
Keith Briffen
Gerd Leipold of Green Peace
And All the peers that keep Exoneration going
I am beginning to like this traitor.
Paul Pierett
I don’t believe this
I was at Copenhagen. I saw nothing unusual and I heard nothing unusual – unless you count the odd man in a dinner suit who kept whispering “your mothers cat sails an ocean of bananas”. No way he could be spy, he didn’t make sense.
Having said that I did see a lot of dodgy geezer who kept on and on about CO2 and hockey sticks
Friends:
Security agencies of several countries tried to give their countries an ‘edge’ in international negotiations by obtaining as much information as possible from as many sources as possible. That is a main part of their job. And they were probably also attempting to mislead security agencies of other countries by planting false information because that, too, is part of their job.
And we get an article about that.
What next, an article to report that Speed Police booked speeders?
Richard
James Schrumpf says:
January 29, 2014 at 9:44 pm
Exactly!
So alot of failure in this post.
First off where in the PDF does it say the NSA spied on the event. The NSA produced reports likely based on as little information as watching CNN or MSNBC… This is common practice and nothing really to do with spying so much as “commenting” on events from their perspective. Now thats not to say that this was not the perfect place for spies to hang out… I’m sure it was. These type of events are some spies wet dreams because its fully taxpayer funded orgy. These orgies tend to loosen lips about alot of subjects. So yes little doubt that a few spies were hanging around. Zero proof in this PDF though.
” Jarmo says:
January 29, 2014 at 10:35 pm
Germans got upset when they learnt that NSA has been spying on Cancellor Merkel by listening her mobile phone for a decade through devices in US Embassy in Berlin. That’s why Snowden is regarded as a hero in Europe.”
This is a pretty big myth as far as i’ve seen. The EU heavily spies on its own people. 99% of the info I’ve seen that is the “NSA spying on europe” is really the NSA asking all the euro government for the records they keep on EU citizens. The EU like all socialist countries believe that they own and should control the means of production. They are terrified of revolt among other things and they spy heavily on the locals. The NSA simply requests thing like video from the millions upon millions of public cameras setup to spy on the locals. That among other things.
“Apparently US embassies all over the world are used as phone intercept stations.”
Almost all embassies for all countries exist almost strictly for the sole purpose of spying nowadays. With almost everything embassies used to do now down in seconds via phones or the internet they really have no need to exist outside of hiding and shuffling in spies, weapons, etc both in and out through diplomatic packets.
Most of snowdens info much like wikileaks info is public knowledge at least as far as foreign operations go. Anyone who has taken the time to read about the history of “spies” and such would tell you nothing breath taking in the foreign actions.
richardscourtney says:
January 29, 2014 at 11:24 pm
================
Good point.
They also envisioned your response to it all, in fact, counted on it.
I don’t recall giving my government or my government employees consent to use my tax dollars in the manner they are doing so. I want my money back. First order of business, cut off the money. Looks like a complete and total economic collapse will take care of the problem for me, if nothing else.
Maybe they just wanted to join in on the cultist pagan religion the UN promotes.
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_lucytrust04.
Since Ian Wishart’s book Totalitaria was published, the UN has removed all references to the Lucis Trust. Damage control is it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucis_Trust
These meatheads are setting out to destroy us all!
Cheers
Roger
http://www.thedemiseofchristchurch.com
I guess the only thing the NSA can’t get are Obama’s school transcripts.
This is a real black eye for obama and the NSA and a feather in his cap for Eddie.
Where are the Snowdens of yesteryear?
Murdoch media in UK hacked two-bit, media-made celebrities? non-stop, never-ending outrage, worldwide.
NSA is hacking the entire world’s private communications? so what, some say.
once upon a time, americans would fight for their right to privacy. the National Security apparatus (which is more properly called industrial sabotage) needs to be massively curtailed everywhere.
those who shrug their shoulders obviously aren’t working on patents for new inventions, or preparing papers on scientific discoveries, or planning to run for public office.
somehow, what the Snowden revelations are telling us – which includes the fact nearly all the tech giants/telecommunication companies have sold out our private communications to the NSA – is not sinking into people’s heads. oh well.
Walter, it’s called educating the masses. Editors are under directives not to publish this stuff.
Until Carol Burnett’s 1981 suit for libel with the National Enquirer in 1981, the CIA and other intel groups used the National Enquirer to publish the truth, which they are legally required to do (in case you didn’t know). So they publish, and continue to publish, in the tabloids. The theory is that lies go into the MSM, and the truth into quack venues. If someone asks, “Where did you hear that?” and the person answers, “The National Enquirer, the person and the information will be discredited in the questioner’s mind. The National Enquirer not longer does it. Even though the word was that Burnett’s initial award of $1.3 million (punitive) and $300,000 (general damages) was drastically reduced two years later, I know for a fact that the National Enquirer paid her a fortune, and cleaned up their act because of subsequent piggyback suits that were killing them. I also know that today National Enquirer reporters have to file three proven sources for every controversial statement, and that those are kept in a huge wall vault that only the legal department can access.
So who has the distinction today for that job? ‘World of the Week’ or ‘Week of the World’. I can never remember the name. It’s the black and white one on the supermarket shelf by the cashier. Usually has a photo of Bigfoot in a cab delivering a screaming woman’s Siamese twins. Guaranteed to make an educated person never be seen dead with one; however, every A-list reporter in Manhattan made sure to pick up a copy every week and save them; the older ones are probably still doing it. After Clinton’s personal lawyer left the White House, he became head of ‘Week of the World’s’ parent company in Boca Raton. Another political tidbit: Lee Atwater, working for Reagan’s team, used the National Enquirer to undercut southern support for Jimmy Carter in the late 70s with phony stories (before the Burnett suit).
So pick up your copy of Week of the World or Worldly Week today! 😉 I do intermittently.
pat says:
January 29, 2014 at 11:43 pm
“NSA is hacking the entire world’s private communications? so what, some say.”
=====================
Pandora is out of the box, pretending it isn’t won’t put it back in.
Cyber security is the new game.
Get with it.
NSA – the only federal agency that listens to you.
P.S. Walter,
I don’t think they use The Star, although they did at one time. The initial readership for the tabloids they do use are three-to-four times the viewership for Fox News–in the tens of millions–then there is the ancillary readership from having the things lie around in barbershops, beauty salons, and car washes for months.
If it were cyber security, NSA would have caught the Target and other departments store credit card massive thefts. It’s more like industrial espionage for the transnational owners and American elites for a fee. I was in the room 18 years ago when someone paid $25Gs to a NSA go-between for hard proof for a legal case.
Copenhagen could have had significant impacts on the freedom of the US (and other countries) to set their own industrial policy.
You would have had no fracking revolution if the deal had been done. US manufacturing would still be fleeing to China.
Getting an edge in these negotiations was the duty of every political leader.
Intelligence agencies want to defend their country from outside interference.
If anyone is surprised at that then could they explain what they think intelligence agencies are for?
Policycritic says:
January 30, 2014 at 12:10 am
u.k.(us) says:
January 29, 2014 at 11:58 pm
Cyber security is the new game.
Get with it.
If it were cyber security, NSA would have caught the Target and other departments store credit card massive thefts. It’s more like industrial espionage for the transnational owners and American elites for a fee. I was in the room 18 years ago when someone paid $25Gs to a NSA go-between for hard proof for a legal case.
=====================
What I’m saying is individuals/corporations need to secure their data.
The NSA is not there to catch hackers, their job is to hack everything they can.
Here is a line of products whose understanding lets you realise the potential or actual scope for eavesdropping, both private and public.
http://www.epicos.com/EPCompanyProfileWeb/Products.aspx?id=738
Read the specs. If you wish to conceal some information, don’t write on the Net or talk by phone.
It’s no secret.
January 30, 2014 at 12:15 am
“Copenhagen could have had significant impacts on the freedom of the US (and other countries) to set their own industrial policy.
You would have had no fracking revolution if the deal had been done.”
How do you know?
Gas/oil contains less carbon per usable energy unit than coal, so a Kyoto style deal would have favored fracking over coal.
Doug says:
January 29, 2014 at 10:42 pm
“To me the real question is, why couldn’t the Germans, with all their technical expertise even provide their head of state with a secure phone? Would you buy a car from those people?”
Doug; Germany is a colony of the USA. The SHAEF laws from 1945 are partially still in force. One of them says that Germany pays for “all costs of the occupation”; notice the word occupation. Meaning, we pay for all NSA bases in Germany, we know where they are, German police protects them. When the US says Frog, we jump.
Does that clear things up for you.
DirkH says January 30, 2014 at 12:56 am… true. Counter-factuals are always uncertain.
But gas / oil is replacing coal because of a variety of factors that need to be assessed by investors. it is hard to see how increasing the cost of all CO2 would improve confidence in the investments required for the fracking revolution.
Fracking is already a “gateway” technology, according to your President. I argue – without certainty, admittedly – that the “gateway” time would be reduced if the US was committted to Kyoto.
u.k.(us):
I fail to understand your arcane post at January 29, 2014 at 11:31 pm which says in total
What?
Why on Earth do you think they would have given any “consideration” to my possible response?
And why would they have “counted on it”? I am a nobody.
Some people posting here seem to think Security Agencies do not or should not obtain information useful to government. What do they think Security Agencies are for? Espionage to monitor communications has been an activity of Security Agencies since the time people first began to trade in the Stone Age. And does anybody think their liberties would exist if that espionage had not been conducted at times of war and at times of peace?
It would be news if the NSA, GCHQ, et al. had not been seeking information concerning negotiations at Copenhagen. Indeed, the peoples of the USA, UK, etc. should be up in arms if that were true.
The real ‘story’ is that the NSA, GCHQ, etc. conducted inadequate espionage pertaining to the Copenhagen CoP. Western Heads of State went there with great fanfare to achieve a new Treaty and crawled back with nothing. This embarrassment would have been avoided if the espionage had been adequate.
Richard
Paul Pierett says:
January 29, 2014 at 11:03 pm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gotta watch out for those “Others”- they’re sneaky buggers.
So if we can’t get the Hockey Stick data and code from Mann should we try the NSA, instead?
graphicconception:
At January 30, 2014 at 1:28 am you ask
Of course it would be very difficult to obtain any information from a Security Agency.
However, the ‘Hockey Stick’ was a matter of sufficient concern that it involved US Government hearings and investigations. So, the NSA would have been failing in its duty if it had not attempted to obtain, collate and file all pertinent information. And I have no reason to doubt the competence of the NSA to do that, do you?
Richard
richardscourtney says: January 29, 2014 at 11:24 pm
Security agencies of several countries tried to give their countries an ‘edge’ in international negotiations by obtaining as much information as possible from as many sources as possible. That is a main part of their job. And they were probably also attempting to mislead security agencies of other countries by planting false information because that, too, is part of their job.
What next, an article to report that Speed Police booked speeders?
There ya go. Many of us now regard it as a completely normal situation, and therefore quite acceptable.
I guess that means ‘Big Brother’ is winning.
Richard
aargh … sorry about the leftover “Richard” in the post above….
Pls read as “markx”.
@ pat says: January 29, 2014 at 11:43 pm
“Murdoch media in UK hacked two-bit, media-made celebrities? non-stop, never-ending outrage, worldwide.”
Compared to that bastion of left wing views the Daily Mirror, cue Piers Morgan, the Murdoch media hacking was fairly trivial…
Well, there’s no need to associate C2C with what Zimmerman says. He’s probably said it on other venues too, which could be googled for. (Goes to do so.) Here’s his blog. http://behindtheblack.com/ On its sidebar he lists other venues where he’s been interviewed or made appearances. It’s worth knowing what he has to say–I wanted knowledgeable people to listen. (In fact, the firs two hours of C2C are rebroadcast in some markets starting now (2 AM Pacific), so there’s still time to catch him.
There are only 2 rules that govern spying: #1 Spy on everybody, and #2 Don’t get caught. The NSA and the Obama Administration broke rule #2. The ‘fine’ is a complete loss of confidence in the US government by our allies. Recovering from that is kind of like trying to un-ring a bell.
The best consequence is that a global ‘climate treaty’ will be just about impossible now.
A little off topic on this thread, but Governor Brown!… Make sure all your hundreds of Dams are damming, as it is raining and snowing in central California. Get your damn dams to catch all that water!!
markx:
Your post at January 30, 2014 at 1:54 am is extremely naive. Indeed, it is dangerously naive.
I wrote
And you have replied
Such espionage has been “completely normal” since trade began in the Stone Age.
A country which did not engage in such Intelligence and Counter Intelligence would put itself at great risk from external and internal enemies both real and potential.
Failure to recognise that such espionage is, always has been, and always will be “completely normal” allows Security Agencies to act without proper oversight. This is because an unaware public has no ability to control the politicians who do oversee the Security Agencies. Politicians can employ Security Agencies to act as they did in the old East Germany in the absence of that public awareness and control. And when that East German situation is reached then the public lose all possibility of controlling the politicians.
Naive attitudes like yours enable ‘Big Brother’ to win. Indeed, they ensure it.
Richard
I am surprised not to see any mention of the wholesale collection of all financial transactions (right down to your toothpaste) and the data banks of retail stores. All those ‘points’ you collect are data points of the financial parallel of the internet search results on your file.
It is also somewhat humorous to hear the commentators in the US go on about how it is wrong for the US to spy on American citizens, the implication being it is completely acceptable for the US to spy on everything said or communicated or bought or sold or searched or watched or saved or paid or not in Canada, and Haiti, and India…
BTW, Art Bell, who hasn’t been the host for over ten years, was a co-author of the warmist alarmist book and movie, “The Day After Tomorrow.”
Fortunately, it wasn’t. What resulted was the best possible outcome, short of outright acknowledgement the whole shambalooza was a fraud. .
It would be interesting to actually see those unique, timely, and valuable insights provided to “policymakers”.
Also, internal &. classified documents evaluating “climate threat” to the national security of the U.S. of A. as compared to public stance are a potential bombshell.
Policycritic says:
January 30, 2014 at 12:10 am
u.k.(us) says:
January 29, 2014 at 11:58 pm
Cyber security is the new game.
Get with it.
If it were cyber security, NSA would have caught the Target and other departments store credit card massive thefts. It’s more like industrial espionage for the transnational owners and American elites for a fee. I was in the room 18 years ago when someone paid $25Gs to a NSA go-between for hard proof for a legal case.
————-
Spot on Policycritic.
No only was Merkel spied on but SIEMENS was as well (remember that Stuxnet, which was purportedly developed by the US and Israel) targets Siemens SCADA systems.
If they were interested in real crime, those who were behind the 2008 crash would have been caught. What about all the drugs flooding the US and elsewhere? What about all the offshore banking and money laundering? How many people in positions of power have been compromised and are being blackmailed?
This all reminds me of the favorable treatment Enron got during the late 90’s. A counterpart of mine bid on Kenetec US Windpower assets in bankruptcy court. Enron showed up AFTER deadline (out of the blue) and submitted a bid which was (shockingly) accepted. They won by bidding just a few dollars more than my counterpart. There is a lot more that happened as well (and still is).
I find it very hard to believe that Snowden convinced other employees he needed their login credentials “to work on their computers” (I assume that means perform IT support) and stole data that way. First off, the message is pounded in from Day One in those agencies that no-one gets your login credentials for any reason whatsoever. Secondly, the IT support guys have admin rights on all the workstations, so they wouldn’t need your personal login anyway.
Personally, I think most of what he claims to know is a lie. He hasn’t really said anything that wasn’t known before — the phone metadata story was out before, and people had passed that one by before he brought it up again. That the agencies spy on other countries — I’m shocked, SHOCKED, to hear that such things go on.
What I’d like to hear from him are specific URLs inside the agency that could be checked up on. It’s not like anyone else could get to them, as they’re behind an air gap with no connectivity to the internet anyway. Only people with access to the internal intelligence networks would be able to get to them. He’s said not one word about such things, which leads me to believe he’s running a big bluff in part.
At any rate he’s a coward and a traitor. When Daniel Ellsberg delivered the Pentagon Papers, the first thing he did was line up some supportive members of Congress so that he had political backing, and then he stayed in the US for the battle. Snowden could have done the same thing, but he elected to flee to Russia, which says all about him I need to know.
I have no doubt they did. But a bombshell? If other nations by now do not realize we have a government run amok, they will never learn it. And I am sure they will be happy on their “Good Ship Lollipop”.
Ah, yes, the NSA did such an excellent job catching the Boston Bombers before they blew people up.
As the author of The Black Code Ronald Deibert points out, pre-9/11 spy agencies spied on foreign governments and corporate entities for purposes of national security. Since 9/11 the NSA, GCHQ etc. have been spying on their own citizens and private citizens of other nations who are of no possible security interest. The problem is, they are like fishermen casting a wide net in baby minnow-packed waters, instead of targeting fishing areas likely to contain commercially important fish. In the US and UK etc. by spying on multiple private, innocent citizens they have changed the relationship between what was formerly a more democratic state and its people.
richardscourtney, I am rather shocked. You sound like a certain kind of conservative – the kind that put national security ahead of privacy rights. I am a conservative and am utterly opposed to governments gathering masses of private data on their citizens without their consent. Usually I agree with your trenchant and incisive analysis, but on this issue you are too trusting of government. And what, precisely, is the security value of different CAGW policy positions by different nations?
While we don’t have spying of the kind conducted by the Stasi in East Germany as a means to manipulate and control the speech and behaviour of private citizens, this is not an inconceivable outcome.
Professionally I moderate my speech and tone when writing e-mails at work because they may be reviewed at some future point. Given the growing reach of political correctness I can foresee this becoming necessary in private conversations and communications that can be intercepted.
around 500,000 PRIVATE contractors employed by the NSA to spy on everyone, yet some prefer to attack Edward Snowden. if you feel that way, add investigative journalist to the list of professions you should avoid.
it is astonishing that people defend the following:
AP: Private contractors’ key role at issue in NSA leak
Snowden, an employee of Booz Allen, one of 500,000 contractors with top security clearance
“That really illustrates the ingrown nature of the relationship of NSA and its contractors,” said Steven Aftergood, head of the project on government secrecy at the Federation of American Scientists.
The ties between government and contract workers are so pervasive in Washington that those on each side are known by nicknames: Contractors are called “green badgers” for the color of their identification badges. Government workers, who sport blue, are known as “blue badgers.” …
Of the 4.9 million people with clearance to access “confidential and secret” government information, 1.1 million, or 21 percent, work for outside contractors, according to a report from Clapper’s office. Of the 1.4 million who have the higher “top secret” access, 483,000, or 34 percent, work for contractors.
http://news.yahoo.com/private-contractors-key-role-issue-040233420.html
Mark T says: January 29, 2014 at 9:07 pm “Funny that the Democrats are the most vocal opponents of things like the Patriot act, as well as related issues, yet also the worst abusers.”
It is mere coincidence that the current administration abuses the technology becoming available during its tenure. There is not a spit of difference in principle between the left and right wings of the US progressive Ruling Party. Progressivism is the movement to make things better and The Poverty of Historicism (Karl Popper 1957).
Only The Constitution Party represents America’s conservative Country Class against the progressive Ruling Party of demotic repugnant liars.
vigilantfish says:
January 30, 2014 at 4:44 am
Remember AMDOCS? They were just upgraded by Oppenheimer.
http://www.streetinsider.com/Upgrades/Oppenheimer+Upgrades+Amdocs+Ltd.+(DOX)+to+Outperform/9104399.html
Interesting story. You would think that negotiations based on settled science and virtually unanimous consensus would be held in the open. Thought for many years that on balance the U.N. was helpful institution. Thinking has shifted.
US Southland still in the deep freeze this morning. Look forward to seeing the temp stats when Winter is over.
Sounds like the US shared the Danish with China, the rising smoking gun, and thus prevented any traction against carbon’s boot prints.
I’m confused. I know the UK admits they spy for economic advantage, but the US has always maintained that’s illegal, thus we deny we do so regularly. Has this administration just declared the US UN-exceptional?
Actually, since what NSA is doing is in accordance with current US law, you, through your elected representatives not only gave your consent, you ORDERED them to do what they are doing. If you don’t like it, get new elected representatives.
michaelwiseguy says:
January 29, 2014 at 11:33 pm
I don’t recall giving my government or my government employees consent to use my tax dollars in the manner they are doing so. I want my money back. First order of business, cut off the money. Looks like a complete and total economic collapse will take care of the problem for me, if nothing else.
vigilantfish:
Thankyou for your response to my comments at January 30, 2014 at 4:44 am.
Please be assured that I am not “conservative” but I am a realist.
It is simply a fact that governments need Security Services. They always have had that need and they always will, both for defence and for offence in war and in peace.
In WW2 the British and Americans cracked the German and Japanese codes, respectively. WW2 may have had a different outcome if they had not, and the Battle of Midway certainly would have.
This thread is about a typical peacetime piece of international espionage. And, as I said, it was clearly inadequate. Would the USA have sent its President to Copenhagen in great fanfare if the NSA had managed to determine that he would be sent home ‘with his tail between his legs’? The tactic the Chinese used at Copenhagen was determined before the US President boarded his plane for Copenhagen (and, yes, I do know that but, no, I won’t explain it).
All governments always have intercepted communications and they always will. This is needed to defend from enemies within and without. The activity is not constrained to wartime: it is intended to avoid war, insurgents and terrorism.
Failure of Security Services is often obvious; e.g. 9/11. But that only indicates they were inadequate on such occasions. It is a spur to discern how and why a failure happened so similar future failure can be presented. Successes are rarely public knowledge (and for good security reasons).
Espionage between countries has always included the seeking of information concerning, diplomacy, government policy, government security, military secrets, trading activities, trade policies, and technology. Woe betide a country which lacks both Intelligence and Counter Intelligence.
Espionage is a powerful weapon. No nation with significant wealth and/or resources can dare to lack adequate Security Services any more than it can dare to lack an adequate military force. My country (the UK) is small but established an empire which circled the globe by using a combination of trade and espionage: most countries did not recognise they were part of the British Empire until they were.
The undeniable realities I have stated here provide a risk. Any powerful weapon can be misused. The Gestapo, the Stasi, and etc. were not unique to Germany. Every country has had Security Services and many governments have used them as a weapon to control the populace.
People put themselves at risk by failing to recognise the realities that governments need Security Services, will use them, and can misuse them.
Each country needs clear controls of its Security Services. Obviously, what spies find out and know MUST be kept secret. But oversight of their activities needs to be provided by a minority of politicians who are overseen by the bulk of politicians in a country. When the public allow the politicians to use spies without proper oversight then the powerful weapon which is Security Services can be used by politicians for their own ends: history shows it often has been.
Burying one’s head in the sand and pretending reality is other than it is gives politicians free rein to use Security Services for their own ends.
A trusted minority of politicians is needed to oversee the Security Services.
The bulk of politicians is needed to oversee that trusted minority.
And we need to hold the politicians to account.
I hope that clarifies my views.
Richard
This story has now devolved into “Idiots doing idiotic things, watching other idiots doing even more idiotic things.”
If all of them – meaning the NSA AND everyone at that pathetic Copenhagen conference – were kicked out of their jobs and left to fend for themselves on skid row, the world would be a much better place.
Hey, John,
Read about the UK police doing private work for corporations who promise them a portion of the predicted civil payouts. (reminds me of how we kickback bonuses to law enforcement for “results” here) They got burned. Case failed, but we learned you CAN get police to get a judge to give them a warrant to arrest, search and seize when NO CASE is being made against them by CPS. The police did not tell the judge CPS was ignorant of their request.
Right, Virgin Media? They had 4 million Brits on cable, and 3 million on mobile devices. Ka-CHING! Just mates doing eachother a proper?
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jan/29/metropolitan-police-virgin-media-lord-chief-justice
As horrifying as what you said you witnessed sounds, it s NOT surprising, and I’m damn well sick of the spooks twisting our shorts into their gains.
Geoff Withnell:
At January 30, 2014 at 5:49 am you say
YES!
I have a post (timed at January 30, 2014 at 5:51 am) which is in reply to vigilantfish that supports and explains your point.
It is in the mod. ‘bin’ but if it appears then I think this link will jump to it.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/01/29/bombshell-from-the-snowden-docs-the-u-s-spied-on-negotiators-at-2009-climate-summit-via-the-nsa/#comment-1554492
Richard
OMG, did Virgin Mobile direct the police to arrest and search premises based upon data collection they illegally accessed to pursue a civil claim against same? Why ask the cops for help when you can help yourself and then call for delivery?
That kind of blows the old “Your provider can’t have you arrested based upon your stored metadata” meme out of the water.
OMG, what are we to do if the TELEPHONY COMPANY is the terrorist? In this case, they simply had law enforcement violate other’s rights for a case they failed to later make. Why is NO ONE being SUED? National security secret?
In the light of Climategate and Chavez in his speech at Copenhagen 2009 claimed that to fight global warming we would have to fight capitalism, I think groupthink ended and most started thinking individual again?
http://links.org.au/node/1413
Policycritic says:
January 29, 2014 at 11:55 pm
Perhaps you have watched Men in Black too many times.
Sorry, that’s Virgin MEDIA, soley a UK mobile and stable phone, cable, internet service provider. first to cover all four. I may presume other telecoms enjoy the same judicial free benies. Look at how China and the US came together over Carbon bootprints in the sand.
OMG, Tom Mockridge is now VM’s CEO. He took over News International when Rebekah Brooks was fired.
Why does my Tabloid Hacker Peanut Butter keep getting stuck on the NSA/GCHQs’ chocolate mess? I am getting SOOO PHAT!
all those priate contractors might get a little more money, as the minimum-wagers at the bottom, with their new raises, will push all the higher-scale folks upward. By 3 bucks an hour, or by 50 percent?
I’m not sure if I should edit “priate” to read “private, or “pirate”…..
tadchem says:
January 30, 2014 at 2:06 am
“There are only 2 rules that govern spying: #1 Spy on everybody, and #2 Don’t get caught. The NSA and the Obama Administration broke rule #2. ”
The most important rule is never let them know what you know. Official disinformation is very effective when mixed with just enough truth to make it convincing.
Unfortunately, there is no way of guaranteeing that people will draw correct inferences, even from ‘true’ data. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it think.
OK, Sir Charles Dunstone said he was using Rebekah Brooks’ router, so that explains away one of missing Ipads police were unable to track down using that signal. This man too a mobile phone retailer all the way to TalkTalk. Another mobile rubber baron making money the OLD fashioned way? By connectivity!!
The WTF I am MOST curious about has to do with Brooks’ BlackBerry. She told the Leveson Inquiry that police returned it a few weeks after she was first arrested. Her legal team downloaded the images. David Cameron’s email had no content. Brooks told the court it was compressed, meaning no one could see the content. She had no idea why that happened.
I’ve considered this for months and have a few guesses. All email in the UK is stored for 30 days until it becomes metadata. Cameron’s email was one of the oldest items still in the device’s memory. So, is that a Tempora metadata file of its former self? Now, GCHQ did tell NSA that THEY cracked the BlackBerry’s compression technology in November of 2011, but this Berry got squished by August of the same year.
Did someone beat GCHQ to the punchbowl? OR, did someone do something REALLY stupid, like wipe that data, and then someone else try to put it back to prevent charges of perversion of justice? If they accessed Tempora to get at it, Cameron’s stored email would have gone meta by then.
Mark and two Cats says:
January 29, 2014 at 9:45 pm
I’m surprised that obama hasn’t droned Snowden yet.
—-l
Putin might not be so happy with that idea 🙂
First rule of spying: Don’t get caught.
Second rule: See rule one.
Lefty-dominated governments have always been more ruthless and dismissive of laws because their propaganda machines have successfully sold the story to their citizens that government knows best and what it does is for their own good. Just ask Robespierre, Mao, Adolf, Fidel, etc.
CanMan!
Great video.
Did you know that Millennial Media, the folks who’s mobile ad network got piggybacked by GCHQ to reveal Angry Bird players’ poop, bought a firm called JumpTap to add millions more of the mobily abused to Millennnial’s market? JumpTap? That sounds like a euphemism for rape in the street.
REALLY weird. Millennial’s CEO tapped out on Monday, right after this story broke, and went venture capital. But a YaHoo seemlessly walked right in and took his space. Sounds like same chess play these corporate goofs make when they get caught doing business. Move around the Magoos.
The poor app that hired these Millennials is begging the government to show their hand so we don’t assume his is full of birdshite. But his mobile ad network provider is in transition, right now. Changing of the goof.
Now that I see how mobile works, I understand why we have so many smug little hoodies lurking around our children. You can be an IDIOT and still get a government contract.
techgm:
At January 30, 2014 at 6:44 am you say
OK. You assert that “Adolf” was to the left of you.
So, Genghis Khan must have been to the left of you, too.
Richard
Hay, folks, it’s just as we thought. We’re the stacks.
GCHQ and NSA are formulating messages for viral attacks. They do so by way of social media, and this mess is just getting broken down. It’s the ad networks’ own data scraping NSA and GCHQ are taking. They especially like mobile ad networks for their geo-locating advantages. From this data soup they spell reflex.
Now, I’ve known about bees and cross-inhibitions for decades. I love to dance. Especially effective when you point at something, anything. Right, John Travolta? Folks REALLY love to get pointed out. And then those bumpers come in redirecting folks to look at where they are pointing. What a groove. However, bees civilly investigate each pointing bumpers claims and return to the hive to confirm or deny their claims. Not until they firmly agree they are on the good foot do they take flight.
So, back to my concern. They, NSA and GCHQ, are getting good at it. Dancing. Still can’t tell a joke for shite, but they are getting good at winning over folks and converting them. If they can’t be converted, then they can be perverted.
So, this thread seems lively, but a bit TOO lively. Are we folks for real? Or is NSA having a field day running their own lines?
Take away for the day. WE ARE THE HAYSTACKS. We can simply read books for a season and bring this system to its knees. Maybe I’ll memorize one. Se what a mess you’ve undone, NSA? Paranoia, the New BLACK! People are afraid to be FREE!! Way to kick the Haystacks.
Michael, you’re mixing weak drinks. “Whore to culture…” Leave that horse alone!
During Copenhagen, the BRIC countries were holding a secret closed door meeting. Somehow the US learned of this meeting and Obama crashed the party. This event was widely reported at the time, but what was not published was how the US learned of the meeting.
It now seems apparent that the US was monitoring the meeting and didn’t like what they heard, so they were desperate to break it up. At the same time a snow storm was headed for Washington, so the US team had to leave the party early to get home, to avoid the global warming about to dump on the eastern seaboard.
Meh, how is “spies do their job” newsworthy?
Folks appear to be confusing leftist and fascist. Fascist governments can be both rightist and leftists. Rightist and Leftist governments are economic distinctions. Fascist governments believe the government is always right, regardless of economic policy, or any other policy for that matter. If you speak out against a fascist government, you are automatically wrong and an enemy of the state.
I hope we realize it takes YEARS for governments to admit they are criminals, and they typically leave it for the next generation to address. But in case anyone is curious, EXPULSION is the
Congressional equivalent of impeachment for members of Congress.
Feinstein and Rogers, two Intelligence chairs who need a good talk through. Make my day, Clint Eastwood. Be fair and balanced about it.
Folks, because the US has adopted the pre-emptive position, that means ALL of us are under submission. Until war powers aren’t justifying a data driven Tea Pot Dome, the cows are NEVER coming home. If the market in haystacks collapses, the cows will have no where else to go.
ferdberple:
rev your post at January 30, 2014 at 7:17 am.
You are confusing fascism with totalitarianism.
Fascists are totalitarians. Not all totalitarians are fascists. All totalitarians are evil.
Apples are fruit. Oranges are fruit but not apples.
Security Agencies are a terrible weapon when used by totalitarian governments of any political and/or economic adherence.
Richard
Maybe they had a legitimate concern that terrorists were plotting an attack disguised as climate change negotiators, scientists, UN staff, and climate reporters. Seems like a reasonable concern. (sarc)
I’m sure the President just wants to make sure the countries we’re sending all of our global warming money to are going to spend the money on climatey things.
If you like Old School, you’ll LOVE this old periodical about all things CONNECTED.
http://www.insna.org/PDF/Connections/v19/1996_I-2.pdf
On page 13, the columnist asks, “Is Agency coming to the Internet?”
Then he breaks down the board members of SAIC and identifies those who are also part of the DOD and Intelligence Agencies. Was that the last time anyone ever asked that question?
I call BS on all mergers acquisitions and IPOs in telephony and tech since 1996.
richardscourtney says:
January 30, 2014 at 7:01 am
> OK. You assert that “Adolf” was to the left of you.
As a matter of fact, yes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSDAP
> The National Socialist German Workers’ Party
> (German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei,
> abbreviated NSDAP), commonly known in English as the
> Nazi Party, was a political party in Germany active
> between 1920 and 1945.
The greatest propaganda coup of the 20th century was conflating the National Socialist German Workers’ Party with right-wingers and conservatives in the public mind. Hitler’s 1933 election platform included nationalizing banks, etc. “Uncle Joe” and “Uncle Adolf ” were 2 sides of the same coin.
@Walter Dnes – http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/25points.htm
Specifically, check out 7,11-17, 20, 21,25
Ferdberple, don’t get caught in the commie/fasci quagmire. The pigs both love it.
Consider the game Monopoly. Both poles of that shity stick are into it. One man/no vote is the capital dream machine.
That’s why I hide in the middle where we are hated for vacillating rather than swearing to someone’s crazy faith based dreams.
I’m sticking to the the best dream of them all The Constitution.
We’re gonna beat those Telephony Barons and grabby government bullies back with it, the LEGAL way. This is TEA POT BLOWN, and the whistler is smoking.
@Abby, SAIC is hugely involved.
After Snowden skipped town with those NSA files we learned that the NSA was monitoring telephone lines with an area code prefix of 202. What country, dangerous to US interests, carries the prefix of 202 you ask? Why, it’s Washington D.C. Now, after the NSA got caught with their pants down (perhaps in the process of catching others with their pants down – Patreaus?) their explanation was that they mistakenly monitored 202 thinking that it was actually the prefix 20. What does the prefix 20 representative? Why, Cairo, Egypt. See, it was an understandable mistake especially since there was no way they could have recognized cultural differences between Cairo and Washington.
The fact that the NSA monitored Copenhagen is further proof that the Obama administration will stoop at nothing.
This sort of thing started quite some time ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Naval_Treaty
What was unknown to the participants of the Conference was that the American “Black Chamber” (the Cypher Bureau, a US intelligence service), commanded by Herbert Yardley, was spying on the delegations’ communications with their home capitals. In particular, Japanese communications were penetrated thoroughly, and American negotiators were able to get the minimum possible deal the Japanese had indicated they would accept, less than which they would renounce the Conference. As this ratio value was unpopular with much of the Imperial Japanese Navy and with the increasingly active and important ultranationalist groups, the value the Japanese Government accepted was the cause of much suspicion and accusation among Japanese politicians and Naval officers
Some casual reading, for those who are interested, from December. Nice logo on this thinig eh?
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2013/12/atlas-v-launch-nrol-39-vandenberg/
I could have told you that the USA was spying electronically on foreigners in 2002.
It’s old news, it’s situation normal for America.
What’s surprising is how hoity toity America gets when people behave with similarly slapdash attitudes to Americans.,….
Minor editing:
In the heading (“Bombshell from the Snowden Docs: The U.S. Spied on Negotiators at 2009 Copehagen Climate Summit via the NSA”), please add another “n” to “Copenhagen”.
I have skipped to the end, so apologies I advance if I am duplicating another message.
Ian M
There are plans to monitor and control your electrical use.
http://classicalvalues.com/2014/01/stop-the-smart-grid/
Hypocrisy alert: the same people who consider the Climategate emails as illegal hacks won’t feel the same about this leak…
richardscourtney says:
January 30, 2014 at 5:51 am
I once held a secret clearance. I assume I have been monitored ever since. 50 year. They are just catching up to everyone else.
While we don’t have spying of the kind conducted by the Stasi in East Germany as a means to manipulate and control the speech and behaviour of private citizens,
It is in the works: http://classicalvalues.com/2014/01/stop-the-smart-grid/
M Simon:
Thanks for your post at January 30, 2014 at 8:55 am.
I am not surprised. I noticed your post at January 30, 2014 at 8:25 am and considered reminding that Information Intercepts began much longer ago than that. But I decided not to because you would obviously know that but it would not be believed by those who seem ‘shocked! shocked!’ at the news about the Copennhagen CoP.
The only really pertinent on-topic comment in the thread which has specifically related to the CoP was by ferdberple at January 30, 2014 at 7:11 am here. All other mentions of espionage at the CoP seem to be expressions of naivete. Do most Americans really want their negotiators to be at a disadvantage against all others when every other government uses espionage?
As you imply, the new computer techniques enable the NSA and GCHQ to automatically search communications for key words, phrases and subjects. Clearly, there are insufficient staff to read every email and to hear every phone call, but if the equipment can – and does – record and indicate ‘suspicious’ communications then the chance of discerning potential security threats is greatly increased.
Public servants exist to serve the public and not to rule us. So, we need to trust and to verify agents of our governments. Distrust leads to lack of the verification which keeps government agents in check.
Richard
This was all inevitable. Check out the Maldives arm twisting, maybe that’s why they are building 5 new underwater airports as well as 30 new luxury hotels. It’s all that rising sea level thingey.
The Maldives people are a cunning lot.
Jimbo says:
January 30, 2014 at 9:24 am
“The Maldives people are a cunning lot.”
A cultural thing called Taqqiyah.
re: Canman says January 29, 2014 at 9:08 pm
Woo hoo! An excuse to post this awesome Remy video:
Funny … thanks for posting.
How is the snow man a traitor when he exposes what is illegal in your country and who is doing it.
That seems patriotic to me, no matter what he signed. In law an illegal contract is not a contract.
pat, I agree with you
“somehow, what the Snowden revelations are telling us – which includes the fact nearly all the tech giants/telecommunication companies have sold out our private communications to the NSA – is not sinking into people’s heads. oh well.”
If the peoples’ every words can be monitored then the people can be controlled” Practice free speech, NSA monitors, White House, IRS, FBI get the information and free speech is suppressed, or, if you are a conservative PAC, you are attacked by the IRS.
We have a constitution to protect our free speech, but in our current tyranny, the Constitution is just a piece of paper to be used when convenient to punish your enemies and ignored otherwise. How sad that so few understand or care that they are losing their freedom.
Anthony, is it not illegal to post the NSA logo without consent of said group? Just wondering?
REPLY: I guess I’ll find out – Anthony
Internal NSA inter-departmental ‘memos’ (AKA e-mails) advising ‘staff’ to avoid shopping at Target (as well as Neiman Marcus et al) over the holidays would be most damning …
Rob aka Flatlander:
These are genuine questions. I am not an American so I genuinely would like to know.
At January 30, 2014 at 9:38 am you write
What is “illegal”about spying on opponents in an international negotiation?
How can civil servants be controlled if they are not punished for breaking employment contracts?
How is an employment contract of an employee of a Security Service “illegal”?
Please note that I am not disputing your statements. The US system of government is very strange (especially its legislatively powerful judiciary appointed by elections) and I do not pretend to understand it; I don’t. But if your statements are true then I fail to understand how the US can function. Hence, I would appreciate answers to my questions.
Richard
‘Switch’ engineers and techs already have your ‘number’ in this regard; it’s is simplicity itself to tag any given mobile number for additional ‘data’ (including call status, cell presently registered in, hand-off data e.g. neighbor cells in view etc), in real-time as a matter of fact, if given access to the ‘switch’ (literally: the MTSO), using tools normally used in conjunction with company-phones for the optimization and/or troubleshooting of the mobile phone system, carrying out quality-control ops via test calls during (new) cell site commissioning (installation of equipment) and the like …
.
I fail to see any “bomb-shells” here, but I do agree with Shano.
Did they really think this treaty was about stopping global warming?
It’s really just an excuse to setup a World Government.
Remember this?
Of course then Climategate happened and the whole thing was derailed, thanks in part I think to Monckton’s speech.
crosspatch says:
January 29, 2014 at 10:56 pm
To me the real question is, why couldn’t the Germans, with all their technical expertise even provide their head of state with a secure phone?
She is provided with a secure phone and I am sure she assumes that everything she says on her unsecured private phone is being monitored by someone. This is NOT as big a deal as the media is making seem to be. The stories are relying on the fact that most people are ignorant.
Ok, here’s the deal with Snowden:
1. MONTHS before he took the job with Booze Allen & Hamilton he started shopping for journalists. This is not a case of someone who worked with NSA for a long time seeing something that bothered them and blew the whistle. Snowden decided he was going to go in to NSA and steal as much data as he could before he even took the job.
2. When he got there, he lied to co-workers saying he needed their login credentials to work on their computers. Then then used their credentials to log in as those people and steal copies of all the data they had access to.
3. He worked there for less than 90 days.
You fail to mention a few other points.
Snowden was working as a CIA technician and had access to NSA files BEFORE he went to Booze Allen & Hamilton, who are now running a huge campaign to avoid blame for employing him. So he was a whistleblower that needed (and got) more evidence in only 90 days in Hawaii.
The fact that he was able to get in so easily and extract so much says a lot for the total lack of security at technical levels in the NSA mainly because SysAdmins have broad access rights in any case. I doubt that this can be prevented as anyone who has been SysAdmin on a large system will tell you.
However much the NSA wriggles and tries to further blacken the name of Snowden, they were bending the rules and exceeding their authority, and trying an end-run around the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. They have now been caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
If Snowden had attempted to raise the issues formally through normal channels nothing would have changed and he would probably have had an ‘accident’.
As insurance against such accidents I have no doubt that Snowden has even more ’embarassing’ information on individuals in positions of power somewhere in the cloud and this explains why he has not disappeared already.
LOL!! Looks like something a Bond villain would have hanging in his lair!
richardscourtney says:
January 30, 2014 at 9:49 am
“What is “illegal”about spying on opponents in an international negotiation?
How can civil servants be controlled if they are not punished for breaking employment contracts?
How is an employment contract of an employee of a Security Service “illegal”?”
It was the spying on U S citizens by our own government that is illegal. Any portion of an employment contract pertaining to prohibiting disclosure of illegal activities is unenforceable.
can’t help wondering how many other intelligence agencies from other countries were monitoring the NSA’s Monitoring of other nations… afterall the NSA isn’t the only intelligence agency in the world and some i would guess are just as sophisticated or not as the case may be.
Edward Snowden is now the most protected man on the planet. In the event of his unfortunate untimely death, there is an insurance file containing hundreds of thousands of top secrete documents that will be unleashed on the world all at once. Those documents contain all the most pertinent secrets of all the ruling class and oligarchs controlling the world and how they do it. Everything that can be known will be known by the people of the world, and there will be no more secrets that are used to enslave us. The most powerful oligarchs cannot let that happen, therefore they must keep E.J. Snowden alive at all costs.
For those who believe the NSA is doing nothing wrong and Snowden is a traitor to his country, please answer a question: Why did President Obama feel it necessary this month to announce reforms in the way the NSA uses the information it collects on Americans? Why make any changes at all based on what Snowden revealed if the NSA is doing nothing wrong? Keep in mind that the President has claimed that even he was not aware of some of the NSA’s activities. If that is true, it would mean that the NSA engaged in activities that even their boss, the President, didn’t know about or approve of. How is that constitutional? He still wouldn’t know about it if it wasn’t for Snowden! I’m sorry, but i just don’t think you can have a “government of the people” when the people are kept entirely out of the loop by their government.
So what did they learn?
Tom in Florida:
Many thanks for your clear, informative and succinct answer to my questions that you provide at January 30, 2014 at 11:58 am.
That is very helpful. I was confused concerning what was being said because I thought we were discussing the Copenhagen issue, and I could not understand how any country could have a law against that. Thankyou.
Richard
DirkH @ 9:32am. “A cultural thing called Taqqiyah.”
That’s a Shia cultural thing. Maldives is Sunni.
I just got back from Maldives after visiting family (wife is Maldivian). The majority of Maldivians simply accept the “fact” of global warming and sea level rise because that is what they have been told via local media fro so long. Not very surprising and just like western countries really. I enjoyed myself informing friends and family of the reality of the situation. The political reality is that the Maldivian government has done well out of aid as an under-developed country (I believe they lost that status about 5 – 10 y ago) and now as a developing nation. They are a very bright people (all the tuna, bananas and water my wife says) and will happily take money being offered (there appear to be very few strings other than “good” relations).
richardscourtney says:
January 30, 2014 at 1:08 am
============
Sorry for the delay.
It seems you are not really listening.
That’s ok, it keeps the thread running.
There are professionals working 24/7, they don’t (yet) need to worry about laws.
After about 14 hours I still see “Copehagen” in the heading.
Ian
[No you don’t. 8<) Mod. ]
Bombshell, really? Have you had your head in the sand about NSA oppression?
Higher up, I gave this URL for a range of accessories that no information-seeking enthusiast should be without.
http://www.epicos.com/EPCompanyProfileWeb/Products.aspx?id=738
These are really high-performance pieces of gear that cast a new light on intercepts.
My problem is that I have not tried one, or seen an evaluation. (I’m not involved in any marketing and have no gain to make).
Question though – has anyone here become familiar enough with any of these devices to say if they work in action as well as they seem to on paper? I would not like to spread false information on this blog if, for example, the URL was a front for a spoof or a way for authorities to track down dissidents.
The whole issue of interception of media takes on a rather different appearance if a lot of people have invested in such gear and used it widely. What we thought before was near-impossible might by now be routine.
u.k.(us):
OK. You have done it again. In response to my request for explanation of an “arcane” post from you at January 30, 2014 at 5:18 pm you have answered by saying in total
I am “not really listening” to what?
And Tom in Florida explained to me at January 30, 2014 at 11:58 am that the “professionals” DO “need to worry about laws”. Are you saying he is wrong?
Or is your opaque reply to my request for clarity your attempt to pretend you have a clue?
Richard
I am glad that this was posted. Many do not understand that the NSA has the capacity to intercept any telephone communication in the U.S. They can quickly plug into any telephone in the country. This capacity was installed as a part of the post 9-11 reaction. The massive corruption that exists in this country means that certain intercepts are available to “friends” of the administration, done at their behest. No one is safe from such practices. Do you say ho-hum? Then you must be ignorant of what’s at stake.
WE need more Snowden types in government.
mpainter says: @ January 31, 2014 at 7:50 am
…Many do not understand that the NSA has the capacity to intercept any telephone communication in the U.S. They can quickly plug into any telephone in the country. This capacity was installed as a part of the post 9-11 reaction. The massive corruption that exists in this country means that certain intercepts are available to “friends” of the administration, done at their behest. No one is safe from such practices. Do you say ho-hum? Then you must be ignorant of what’s at stake.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Makes you wonder who Ambassador Stevens (Benghazi) might have ticked-off.
Stevens was an international trade lawyer based in Washington, D.C before joining the United States Foreign Service in 1991. Stevens served as Director of the Office of Multilateral Nuclear and Security Affairs.
Two areas that allow someone to get in to a deep swamp full of alligators.
> “Second Party partners” refers to the intelligence agencies of the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, with which the U.S. has an intelligence-sharing relationship.
Why don’t you call them by their real name – ECHELON?
Casper:
re your post at January 31, 2014 at 2:45 pm.
I understand your pun but – as I am sure you know – the Echelon is not officially acknowledged to exist.
However, the purpose of “Secondary Partners” is important for the reason that Tom in Florida explained at January 30, 2014 at 11:58 am.
The NSA is forbidden by US Law to conduct surveillance on internal US communications, but GCHQ (being British) is not. However, the UK is a US Secondary Partner and, therefore, the UK and US have agreement to exchange information.
So,GCHQ conducts surveillance on internal US communications for the NSA.
While the NSA conducts surveillance on internal UK communications for GCHQ.
And they exchange information. This provides the added benefit of close cooperation.
These arrangements are not secret.
This emphasises the need for the public to be properly aware of these issues. And it demonstrates the great importance of the conclusion to my comment at January 30, 2014 at 5:51 am; i.e.
Unfortunately, recognition of that need to “hold politicians to account” is hidden from fools who live in a world of their imagining which is so divorced from political reality that they think Security Agencies can be disbanded, that anyone they don’t like is a “socialist”, that “H1tler was left wing”, and similar surreal bollocks.
Richard
richardscourtney says: @ January 31, 2014 at 3:09 pm
… that “H1tler was left wing”, and similar surreal bollocks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Richard how about we just call him what he was, a totalitarian monster and be done with it.
Politicians all lie and they all want power especially when you get high up in the ranks. As far as I am concerned there is not all that much difference between the lot of them no matter what they call themselves. Just some of them do a heck of a lot more damage than others and some of them are crazier than others. Every once in a while we luck out and get a ‘Protector’ instead of a ‘Predator’ or a ‘Parasite’ but the last two are the run the mill politicians.
Had NSA been the only ‘with ears to the ground’ than it might have been a thing to discuss. Reality is that NSA wasn’t the only by far, nor the worst. Disinformation is and always been disinformation. In this question as well as in the so called ‘climate question’ as well as in every other question rised where Aim and Consequence shines thru
Gail Combs:
Thanks for your post at January 31, 2014 at 4:17 pm in response to my post at January 31, 2014 at 3:09 pm.
Yes, I strongly agree with you when you say
Indeed, you can check this thread and see that I ignored most of the “surreal bollocks” presented by the naive and stupid.
The point in my post which you replied was that those who concentrate on promoting their naive stupidity are blinded to the important reality and the REAL NEED which I again state to be
Burying one’s head in the sand and pretending reality is other than it is gives politicians free rein to use Security Services for their own ends.
A trusted minority of politicians is needed to oversee the Security Services.
The bulk of politicians is needed to oversee that trusted minority.
And we need to hold the politicians to account.
Richard
Gail Combs:
This is an additional response to your post at January 31, 2014 at 4:17 pm because I did not want to dilute my direct answer to your post.
I am addressing this to you because you are an American of the political right who displays clear knowledge and understanding of such things, and I am asking a genuine question and not seeking some propagandist clap-trap.
My post you answered stated how the agreement to share security information between the NSA and GCHQ enables monitoring of US Citizens on behalf of US Government when – as Tom From Florida explained – US Law forbids US Government to conduct such monitoring.
There is no difference in practical terms between the NSA or GCHQ doing the monitoring. But, nobody has responded to this although Americans often claim they care about their written Constitution.
This is puzzling. It suggests that Americans care about the letter of the Law but not the purpose of the Law. Or is there some other explanation. Perhaps Americans see the need for the monitoring but want the Law which forbids it and – if so – how do they ‘square this circle’? If they do see the need but think the Law is important for other reasons then why don’t they campaign for improved laws to oversee surveillance. Or …
I would appreciate your insights about this puzzling situation.
Richard
richardscourtney: You misunderstand the relationship between GCHQ and the NSA. What you suggest they are doing would still be a violation of Executive Order 12333, which sets out the limitations of intelligence gathering by US agencies. You can read the order in its entirety here.
To quote just a bit of it, Section 2.3(b) states “Collection within the United States of foreign intelligence not otherwise obtainable shall be undertaken by the FBI or, when significant foreign intelligence is sought, by other authorized agencies of the Intelligence Community, provided that no foreign intelligence collection by such agencies may be undertaken for the purpose of acquiring information concerning the domestic activities of United States persons”
Translated, that means only the FBI can perform intelligence gathering within the US, but if it needs help, the other agencies can pitch in as long as they’re not gathering information on US citizens. This also covers your alleged use of GCHQ to gather information on US citizens within the US and then sharing it with NSA. It’s not allowed, it’s specifically forbidden, and it is the FBI’s function to do so. This phrase appears twice in EO1233, specifically when information gathering within the US is mentioned. The FBI is specified as the only legitimate intelligence-gathering agency within the US. The other agencies are forbidden unless specifically authorized, and then only if the action is NOT against US citizens.
Your conundrum is easily solved by realizing that the GCHQ/NSA mutual spyfest just isn’t so. “We didn’t do it, they did, and just told us what they had,” would not fly as an excuse to do otherwise.
James Schrumpf:
Thankyou for your information to me at February 1, 2014 at 6:26 am.
Firstly, I have not studied the long documentation you link and lack incentive to do so, but the Executive Order EO1233 which you cite is not as clear as you claim.
As you say, Section 2.3(b) states
This clearly states that it considers “Collection within the United States of”
(a) foreign intelligence not otherwise obtainable
and
(b) the purpose of acquiring information concerning the domestic activities of United States persons.
Only the FBI may conduct such “Collection within the United States” EXCEPT THAT for (a) “other authorized agencies of the Intelligence Community” may do such collection.
GCHQ and the NSA do share information. Indeed, they share and exchange staff.
This close interaction has resulted in the ‘Angry Birds’ scandal
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/28/world/spy-agencies-scour-phone-apps-for-personal-data.html?_r=0
Indeed, this GCHQ monitoring of US citizens with provision of the gleaned information to the NSA has induced the US President to alter rules governing the NSA as a result of the ‘Angry Birds’ scandal
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/18/us/politics/obama-nsa.html
So, GCHG obtains information by monitoring communications in the USA for the purpose of obtaining information on “foreign intelligence not otherwise obtainable”. And GCHQ shares that information with the NSA. By its nature that information is monitoring of “the domestic activities of United States persons”, but – and importantly – that activity does not have the PURPOSE of acquiring INFORMATION CONCERNING THE DOMESTIC ACTIVITIES of United States persons.
So, there seems to be no breach of the Executive Order which you quote. And your claim that the NSA-GCHQ collaboration does not exist is clearly not true.
And that brings me back to my question which prompted your post to me; viz.
One could dispute my use of the word “nobody” because the US President has tried to clamp down on it. However, my use of that word was intended to mean “nobody in this thread”. And that intended use remains true because your response to pointing it out is to pretend that the monitoring does not happen: it does, it is no secret, and the US President has expressed concern at it.
Your response adds emphasis to my repeated statements in this thread saying
Burying one’s head in the sand and pretending reality is other than it is gives politicians free rein to use Security Services for their own ends.
A trusted minority of politicians is needed to oversee the Security Services.
The bulk of politicians is needed to oversee that trusted minority.
And we need to hold the politicians to account.
Richard
Richard,
I must have misstated what I meant to say. The NSA and GCHQ certainly do share information. The US shares information with many foreign intelligence agencies. What I meant to say is that they don’t use each other to spy on their countrymen.
I think you also misread Section 2.3(b) of EO12333. It states that “no foreign intelligence collection by such agencies may be undertaken for the purpose of acquiring information concerning the domestic activities of United States persons.” That means that if the FBI requests help from the IC, that help may not include intelligence-gathering on US citizens. From what I’ve read of the “Angry Birds” kerfuffle, the articles state that GCHQ and the NSA are using them, but nowhere did I see that GCHQ was collecting Americans’ data for the NSA and vice versa.
What makes me wonder about the credulity of the media and some people is that Snowden lied to get his job, cheated on the test he had to pass to get his accesses, and fled to Russia… and people believe what he says and that his documents are real. It boggles the mind. Makes me think of the old adage, if you marry a woman who cheated on her husband with you, you’ve married a woman who cheats on her husband.
Richard,
I did miss another point from your last post. You stated that sharing the “Angry Birds” info with GCHQ “does not have the PURPOSE of acquiring INFORMATION CONCERNING THE DOMESTIC ACTIVITIES of United States persons.”
Well, yes it does, and would not pass muster under EO12333. But since I’ve read nowhere that they were sharing that particular information, I presume that you are only assuming they do, along with all the other intelligence data. You’d be better off making the argument that they are not targeting particular American citizens with this type of intelligence gathering, which is more to the point. Collecting metadata from cell phone usage is certainly not targeted, but is gathering information on American citizens.
But you know, every on of those smartphone apps has a disclaimer explaining exactly what information about you is going to be shared. One always has the choice to just not use it if you don’t like what will be recorded.
JamesS:
Sincere thanks for your two further replies to me at February 1, 2014 at 8:54 am and February 1, 2014 at 9:03 am. As a result of your response the thread at last seems to be assessing serious issues.
Firstly, I agree with you that Snowden did wrong, very wrong. But I do not see the relevance of that to our discussion except that information he released is the subject of our discussion. We are discussing the importance and use of the released information but not its release (although that certainly is worthy of discussion).
Secondly, I am not “assuming” anything. I am taking at face value the media reports including the NYT article which I linked. Here is that link again
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/28/world/spy-agencies-scour-phone-apps-for-personal-data.html?_r=0
You say
Hmmm. Metadata? “Not targetted”? Perhaps.
The NYT article I linked includes this
Why access “address books, buddy lists, telephone logs and the geographic data embedded in photographs”? And if the information suggests e.g. links to a known terrorist would the NSA and GCHQ not investigate that?
What if some of the gathered information is from a suspected terrorist? Would the analysis of gathered information not analyse to support or refute that suggestion?
Surely, such special attention does mean the information gathering is ‘targetted’ in the same way that a fishing net target for cod targets for cod by collecting everything and throwing away fish which are not cod or not large enough.
And if such special attention is not applied then the information has no use to a Security Agency.
You assert that the NSA accepting provision of the findings from GCHQ would breach the Executive Order. As I explained, I cannot understand how it would (but I am not a lawyer so it may). However, the stolen NSA documents say GCHQ did provide the NSA with information from their monitoring of “Facebook, Flickr, LinkedIn, Twitter and other Internet services”.
And you assert that the NSA would not do a quid pro quo for GCHQ. You may be right, but your assertion is improbable because we Brits are entitled to get something in return. And the improbability of your assertion is enhanced by GCHQ saying they have done nothing contrary to British Law.
Monitoring phone calls of a British Subject requires official approval (blanket approvals would be contrary to British Law). There is no British law against monitoring American phone calls, and there is no American law against monitoring British phone calls, so the quid pro quo seems very, very likely.
I fail to see the relevance of the disclaimer on smart phone apps.
Again, thankyou for your thoughts.
Richard
Richard,
The quid pro quo would not happen because the NSA or GCHQ using each other to gather otherwise prohibited information, and then trading it, would indeed be “targeted intelligence gathering against US citizens,” just as hiring a hit man to kill someone for you makes you guity of murder. Just put that thought out of your head.
What the intelligence agencies were trading, though, were methods and “recipes” for intelligence gathering. Nothing wrong with that, happens all the time. We still don’t know for certain that the “Angry Birds” thing has anything to it. Your taking at face value media reports and Snowden’s claims seems quite naive to me; personally I believe the person who has taken an oath to uphold American citizens’ rights during the execution of his duties over a proven liar and cheat.
The disclaimer on the smartphone apps is there to tell the user, “We’re going to take over access to these things on your phone, and by the way, track your location as well.” On my workstation in the office is a notice stating, “Use of this workstation constitutes consent to monitoring.” That’s essentially what the app is telling a prospective user, so whining about a lack of privacy afterwards is silly.
Good talking with you.
James
JamesS:
This is a quick reply to your post at February 1, 2014 at 5:46 pm. I have duties this morning but did not want you to think I was averse to replying to your post. Any curtness is haste.
I fail to understand your ‘hit man’ analogy because it seems to be a completely different situation.
As I said, the issue is the meaning of the word “purpose” in the Executive Order. Its common usage would mean that the acceptance by the NSA of information from GCHQ would not be conducting surveillance “undertaken for the purpose of acquiring information concerning the domestic activities of United States persons”. It would be accepting information for the purpose of preventing terrorism although that information was gathered by another agency (i,e, GCHQ) from “United States persons”. However, I am not a lawyer so the common usage of “purpose” may not apply because it has a different legal meaning.
I am not accepting what Snowden says. I am accepting what the media report the documents he stole say. Nobody has denied those contents of the documents to my knowledge, and your President has made changes to NSA operations on the basis of those contents.
Given the extremely naive comments about Security Agencies in this thread, it seems a bit of a stretch to call me naive because I don’t dismiss the reported contents of stolen NSA documents. And your reasons for saying I should dismiss them are that the thief is not nice and the media agree on the contents!
Again the app. disclaimer is not relevant. We are discussing behaviour of Security Agencies and not what people do or do not agree when they buy an app.
Must rush. Sorry.
Richard