Memorial Day tribute – USS Iowa final voyage this weekend

Awesome. No, really…AWESOME.

At least she won’t be broken up, the fate the Big E got after WWII:

Enterprise entered the New York Naval Shipyard on 18 January 1946 for deactivation, and was decommissioned on 17 February 1947. In 1946, she had been scheduled to be handed over to the state of New York as a permanent memorial, but this plan was suspended in 1949.[13] Subsequent attempts were made at preserving the ship as a museum or memorial, but fund-raising efforts failed to raise enough money to buy the vessel from the Navy, and the “Big E” was sold on 1 July 1958 to the Lipsett Corporation of New York City for scrapping at Kearny, New Jersey. A promise was made to save the distinctive tripod mast for inclusion in the Naval Academy’s new football stadium, but was never fulfilled; instead, a memorial plaque was installed at the base of what is still called “Enterprise Tower.” Scrapping was complete as of May 1960.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Enterprise_(CV-6)#The_end_of_the_.22Big_E.22

Yeah, she may be old, she may be outgunned by a small frigate these days with the right misslie technology, but what a presense on the water, magnificent, truly magnificent! A terrorist rib boat speeding towards her would be so much rubber under the air blast from those powerful 16″guns, would even have to aim at it! Be very proud USA, very proud indeed.

Awesome indeed. I like how the designer tricked Neptune into thinking the ship was going to be skinny all the way back.

I served on her for a few days of my Midshipman cruise to South America, Sailed from Annapolis to Norfolk where I shifted to the USS Northampton CLC 1. During the cruise we had a gunnery exercise and towed a sled. Destroyers fired first and were impressive with splashes all around the sled. Cruisers second and even tigher. Iowa last and fired only one turret. Result- no sled.

I came across something I highly recommend reading, the Wikipedia account of the 1989 USS Iowa turret explosion when 47 crewmen perished. It’s long but worth it, well written and thoroughly researched. It is the finest Wikipedia entry I have ever read, whatever that’s worth.
And what it is, is a long and ultimately sordid tale of brass and bureaucrats lying and conspiring, before and after, arguably causing it and not-arguably covering it up. While written in a bland and neutral tone, the details have nevertheless angered me. To summarize my impression, it’s like the “upper management” involved went to the graves of these fine battlefield troops, squatted and dumped, and blamed it on a stray dog. While looking around for any other graves they would have to likewise “honor”.
Our troops deserved better. They deserve better than they get now. Today, in the US, we show our respect for those of the military who have fallen. Let us not forget to extend due respect to all who have served or are now serving our nation honorably. At the absolute least, this is what they are owed.

Actually these ships did not move sideways. Even the big guns on Battleships couldnt do that. Too much mass and the water on the other side of the ship made it impossible. At best a slight roll. The first Pic looks like there is a port turn occuring at the time of firing.

EternalOptimist says:
May 28, 2012 at 1:35 am
Your dad said something like:
‘I saw the battleship HMS Barham strike a mine. The first one hundred feet of twelve inch armoured steel just disappeared. Gone.

Your dad was wrong about the cause. The Barham took three torpedoes and, because she had a lot of improperly stored ammunition, her magazines exploded.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Barham_(04)

That photo gives the appearance that the ship is recoiling a long way. That does not seem possible. Most likely it’s a turn as someone has commented.

Well I am old enogh to remember when the only thing standing between my arse, and the empire of the rising sun, was the United States Navy; and the men who sailed those ships. I don’t recall any of the Big Battle Wagons ever making it to Auckland, for R&R; A long way to burn fuel; and we could only really supply them foodwise; being dependent on open shipping lanes, ourselves for almost anything manufactured. But I did get to watch many GIs baseballing on the footy field of the Manurewa Elementary School; and went to the Homai camp many times, to watch Errol Flynn movies, sitting on a GI’s lap in a big tent. So to N. Jim; if you’re still out there somewhere; I won’t ever forget you. And you too; Fatty, and Skinny; my little sister remembers you too. Hope you made it home, from that hell on earth out in the Pacific.
And finally to former Mayor of San Francisco, and now California “senator” dianne feinstein; a nice Bronx cheer, for giving the USS Iowa, the bum’s rush, and ending it packing to LaLa land. Well SF didn’t deserve it anyway.
To all you veterans out there; my eternal Thank You; we can’t ever repay our debt to You.

Related to ballistics and Newton
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1120527/jsp/nation/story_15537378.jsp

To Jonathan Smith,
There is hardly any movement of the ship, but the guns recoil a couple of meters. I have first hand knowledge. One of my tasks as a midshipman on summer cruise on the Missouri in 1951, was to load the firing cartridge into the breach of one of those big guns. I was located in a recessed area just to the side and watched the recoil. The projectile and powder bags had been loaded the floor above me and I inserted the cartridge after the guns were elevated.
Capt. Fred H. Haynie (Ret)

“”””” Alan Watt says:
May 28, 2012 at 7:08 am
The Iowa-class battleships were dinosaurs the day they were launched. WWII naval battles turned on air power, not surface guns. The carrier Enterprise arguably made a greater contribution to US victory in the Pacific than all four Iowa-class battleships put together. Talk about disrespect — she was scrapped in 1958. The Japanese had two even larger battleships the Yamato and the Musashi and I doubt their contribution to the Japanese war effort was even equal to their fuel bill. Both were sunk without inflicting any significant damage to US forces. “””””
A Navy pilot veteran, I became acquainted with; Ensign Jack Cowan Cochrane of Dinuba California, went to flight school with George HW Bush, and was assigned to the carrier Wasp
in the Pacific. Bush was assigned to the carrier San Jacinto.
Jack was awarded The Navy Cross for his role in the first battle of the Phillipine sea. He also got a DFC (one of two) for helping torpedo a Japanese heavy cruiser, in the second battle of the Phillipine sea; AKA Leyte Gulf. He was one of three planes making a simultaneous run at the cruiser, at 140 ft and 140 knots; sitting ducks, because any move would send the fish off sideways. So all three dropped successfully and all hit (and sank) the ship.
But Jack caught a 40 mm AA shell, which blew a 3 x 4 ft hole in his wing, but never broke anything vital.
His flight of about 15 Grumman Avengers climbed and regrouped at 1500 feet to return to their carriers. The Battleship Musashi; sister of Yamato, fired a 18 inch (think so) round at them from the port aft quarter, and Jack said the shell went by right in front of them, exactly on their altitude, and exploded a short distance to the right of the flight. The shock wave flipped some of the planes sideways; but all survived. If the shell had had proximity fuzes; the whole 15 plane flight would have been scrap metal; but the timed fuze was a fraction of asecond too late.
Musashi could have hit them if they had been at 15,000 feet.
As Allan says, Musashi never hit anything much. I think it survived Leyte Gulf, and was lost later, as was Yamato.
The story of Jack’s Navy Cross, is even more remarkable.
Sadly he died at about age 85, in perfect health; fainted getting out of bed too quickly, and broke his neck on the bed footboard.
He was about the nicest unassuming guy, I have ever met; and I had to drag his stories out of him, so that the heroes of The Greatest Generation will never be forgotten.

No, the people of San Francisco don’t appreciate these ships. They had the chance to have one, and passed on it. I have set foot on the Missouri and New Jersey. It was amazing to see the plaque commemorating the signing of the Japanese surrender at the end of WWII.
http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=13
I was in the Smithsonian viewing the Enola Gay forward section and some people walked by complaining about the bombing of Hiroshima. I said without the atomic bomb drops, my wife would not have been born, and my kids wouldn’t either. My father-in-law was a US Marine who fought on Iwo Jima. Almost certainly, he would not have survived a battle on the main islands of Japan. Part of me celebrates Aug 6 and 9 not only for the US, but also for Japan. The Japanese people were freed from a tyrranical government. Keep in mind that hundreds of thousands of people died in the firebombings of Japanese cities; more died in one attack on Tokyo than each the atomic attacks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo
It is the soldier who gives us freedom, and it should not be squandered.

Correction. Musashi WAS lost at Leyte Gulf (Battle of); and it did have 9 18 inch guns.

RACookPE1978 says:
May 28, 2012 at 6:45 am
This post is stridently critical of the RN’s gunnery systems etc. but posts no references. This is the first I have read of such deficiencies. What are the sources for these comments?
Gunga Din has already noted the problems with ship design and shell construction but there was also an issue with fuses. After Jutland the Germans removed unexploded large-calibre shells from several ships.
Back on topic, I have nothing but respect and gratitude for the bravery and sacrifice of the services.

“William Truesdell says:
May 28, 2012 at 3:34 am
I served on her for a few days of my Midshipman cruise to South America…”
Used to love when middies would join us on the DE-1038….
Last time out a fellow EW and I brought canned sardines from the ships store into CIC as we were getting underway. We made just about every middie barf his cookies by the time we secured sea and anchor 😉

I served in the Canadian Artillery in the early 70’s. That was not a good time to be in uniform in public, even in Canada, and less so in the USA, due to the Vietnam War. The “civvies” had no respect, and I recall their cat calls, spitting, yelling and so on to this day. Out of uniform my haircut identified me as well. So I’m glad the political climate today allows for respect of all military members but I recall a time when it did not. And that was shameful.
It’s easy to laud the military and it’s veterans now – let’s laud them when it is not, and that will show our true colours.
And by the way, the Battle of Jutland was variously described as a victory for the Germans, or a draw, or any such thing that denigrated the Royal Navy. The fact is that the German fleet never sailed again after Jutland, and in that light, most importantly, the RN won.

George V
May 28, 2012 at 4:22 am
Nice display of Newton’s third law in that first picture. I am also amazed at the complex design of such a ship in the day when the computing device was a slide rule and the design system was a drafting pen, compass, straightedge, and giant sheets of paper.
###
And modeling was done with miniatures in tubs of water.

Darrin says:
May 28, 2012 at 8:12 am
Alan Watt, from where she will be sitting they’ll be able to call her back to active duty if needed. The reason behind retiring her is she is just to damn expensive to operate….. Second reason is a retrofit to a more modern propulsion system and armament would also be cost prohibitive. To truly make her worthwhile to run with her size and weight she would need to go nuclear, gas would work but she would likely only be able to outrun supply ships.
_______________________________
Would Thorium Powered Ships be better for the Navy?: The Navy is studying using alternative “green” fuels for powering Navy ships…
Looks like green-think is infesting all parts of the US government.

@Gunga Din and Bill Tuttle. Thanks for your replies on the bore/caliber question I asked. Usually I just look those things up for myself but it was busy here today. Doing things to remember our heroes. Here’s a site that I found later: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7.htm
To everyone here who served, thank you. Particularly WWII vets who clearly saved the world from an unspeakable future. I’m a Vietnam vet who is still pissed at the politicians who failed to pursue victory. By the way, Bill, I know a little about Redlegs and Ft Sill.

Alan the Brit :
if you look carefully on the vertical view there are some rectangles installed at an angle.
those are the modern weapons that can reach out and touch someone at 600nm.
(worked on two of those beasts)
C

Alan Watt says:
May 28, 2012 at 7:08 am
yes we can build them again. its just that we would use different indistrial techniques.
like welding continous cast plate strips together with %100 welded joints (both techniques were not in industry in the late thirties when these ships were built).
the business of installing gas turbines was considered in the late seventies when the advance work for the reactivation was being done but there wasn’t enough experience in the fleet and it was set aside.
the main costs of the ships were not the ship itself but the personnell wages……..
C

I was 12 years old on April 1956 when I went to the Malecon in Havana, Cuba. The Iowa was moored a mile or so from the coast, I guess the port was not deep enough to hold it, or maybe they “remembered the Maine.” I stood there for a long time, amazed at the sight.

To all who served, and to the families of those who died in service to the United States of America and our faithful Allies, I offer my deepest and most humble appreciation for your sacrifices.
http://youtu.be/wK0T4pVHP28

Speaking of a broadside fired by those 16″ “rifles”, as I recall, at a range of 26 miles, those guns could group (place their shots) in about 1 minute of angle, one minute of angle being approximately 1″ at 100 yards.

Thank you Mac the Knife
Father – AIr Force Veteran, Viet Nam
Uncle – Army Veteran, WWII and Korea
Grandfather – Army Veteran, WWII
Uncle – Army, KIA near St. Lo. WWII July 44
Myself – Veteran, US Navy, Submarine Service

Using sabots, the naval rifles can reach over 50 miles. That still pales in comparison to the hundreds or even thousands of miles for a cruise missile, and is the main reason they’re being retired.

Something tells me, that having the firepower of an Iowa class ship will be badly needed one day for its intimidating shock and awe value.

“SAN PEDRO, Calif. — May 17, 2012 — The Los Angeles Harbor Commission today voted unanimously to create a new home for the historic battleship, the USS IOWA, in a prime location along the LA Waterfront at the Port of Los Angeles.
In separate actions, The Harbor Commission approved the lease agreement and an Environmental Impact Report (EIR) necessary to bring the World War II icon to the LA Waterfront where it will be converted to an interactive naval museum and living memorial. The floating museum is scheduled to open to the public July 7 at Berth 87 along the Main Channel, directly south of the World Cruise Center.”
http://www.portofla.org/newsroom/2012_releases/news_051712_USS_IOWA_Approval.asp
Starting on July 7, the public will be able to see this historic ship.

Your most welcome Djozar.
Father – Army, WWII
Mother – Army nurse, WWII
(2) Uncles – Navy WWII
Brother – Navy, Captain (Ret.) Viet Nam and on
Brother – Army, Viet Nam
Myself – I did not serve in the military. I came of age in 1973, when the draft lottery gave my twin brother and I ‘lucky number 10’ for a present and just about guaranteed we would get inducted . 1973 turned out to be the first year the US ran the draft but did not take inductees however, as the war was winding down.

northernont says:
May 28, 2012 at 5:22 pm
Something tells me, that having the firepower of an Iowa class ship will be badly needed one day for its intimidating shock and awe value.

It certainly served that function during bombardment off Lebanon.
The demise of the BB class is a function of a change in weapons systems and combat strategy on the high seas. They were still some of the fastest ships in the Navy even with their WWII vintage propulsion system, but they were built based on the assumption of two fleets facing off at gun range and fighting a gun duel, as their courses converged, or as used in WWII as a heavy artillery asset during beach landings. Modern cruise missiles have replaced the general shelling application at far greater range than the BB 16 inch rifles could achieve. They would how ever still provide superior hard target attack to anything short of a modern bunker buster, and with direct fire could react faster than an aircraft sortie if no airborne on station capability was in place.
More importantly with the advent of aircraft most naval engagements will occur out side of line of site, using UAV or satellite targeting for GPS terminally guided munitions.
The days of broadside gun duels between ships of the line are over, but the one advantage of gunfire over missiles and aircraft is velocity of the projectile. Hyper-velocity missiles are available that match the velocity of approach of a Naval rifle but they have the same fire risk to the ship they come from as explosive projectiles and the propellent charges for the conventional guns.
The new “main gun” for the U.S. Navy is not far off, in the rail gun. It will allow direct fire and indirect fire at ranges up to 220 nautical miles, the kinetic energy of the projectile will exceed the energy of its projectile weight in high explosives. Like hyper-velocity missiles the rounds will be nearly impossible to intercept in flight, and put no pilot at risk, and there will be no powder magazine to burn or explode on board ship.
http://weaponsman.com/?p=2382
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=24126
If you want to read a very intense account of Naval warfare as practiced during WWII, pickup a copy of “Pawns of War”: The Loss of the USS Langley and the USS Pecos. A friend of mine had an uncle, who served on the Langley and survived its sinking only to die during the sinking of the Pecos. In the book is a blow by blow account of two battle groups engaged in an old fashioned gun duel on the high seas. Two lines of capital ships steaming broadside to each other on converging courses (to close range) and their kill or be killed slugging match as they traded rounds.
For those who wonder about the terminology old hands in the Navy would get really upset if you referred to a “naval gun” they made a very strong point of informing you that these were “Naval rifles” not guns. The distinctions is the overall barrel length, I cannot find the “official” break point right now, but I believe it is between 38 and 54x the bore. The 5″ 38 is considered a naval gun and the 5″ 54 is considered a naval rifle.
Larry

The contributions of our allies are not forgotten.
There were Memorial Day ceremonies in Perth, Western Australia.

fhhaynie says:
May 28, 2012 at 8:27 am
Capt Haynie,
I concede to your first hand experience. Part of me wishes my version was true but if it ain’t so, it ain’t so. I envy you your experience in having operated those guns.
Regards,
JS