DEAUVILLE, France: Russia, Japan and Canada told the G8 they would not join a second round of carbon cuts under the Kyoto Protocol at United Nations talks this year and the US reiterated it would remain outside the treaty, European diplomats have said.
The future of the Kyoto Protocol has become central to efforts to negotiate reductions of carbon emissions under the UN’s Framework Convention on Climate Change, whose annual meeting will take place in Durban, South Africa, from November 28 to December 9.
Developed countries signed the Kyoto Protocol in 1997. They agreed to legally binding commitments on curbing greenhouse gas emissions blamed for global warming.
Those pledges expire at the end of next year. Developing countries say a second round is essential to secure global agreements.
But the leaders of Russian, Japan and Canada confirmed they would not join a new Kyoto agreement, the diplomats said.
They argued that the Kyoto format did not require developing countries, including China, the world’s No. 1 carbon emitter, to make targeted emission cuts.
At last Thursday’s G8 dinner the US President, Barack Obama, confirmed Washington would not join an updated Kyoto Protocol, the diplomats said.
The US, the second-largest carbon emitter, signed the protocol in 1997 but in 2001 the then president, George W. Bush, said he would not put it to the Senate for ratification.
Agence France-Press, 29 May 2011
h/t to Dr. Benny Peiser
I am proud to be a Canadian.
“The US, the second-largest carbon emitter, signed the protocol in 1997 but in 2001 the then president, George W. Bush, said he would not put it to the Senate for ratification.”
I didn’t realize George W. Bush was president in 1997, 1998, 1999 and 2000…
There’s that threatened polar bear again. Doing double duty in front of the Peace Tower in cold, cold Ottawa. And you can bet the Chinese are not on board with very much of anything.
I see this year they’re being very careful to have their meeting in a place where there’s little or no possibility of cold weather
I await ‘their’ next move…
chris y,
Among the CAGW true believers, everything is George W Bush’s fault.
Meanwhile, UK politicians reaffirm their commitment to pursue “moral leadership” on the issue, systematically ruining the landscape with wind farms, eroding civil liberties, and hamstringing industry. Good one boys.
“…UN’s Framework Convention on Climate Change, whose annual meeting will take place in Durban, South Africa, from November 28 to December 9….”
Someone is going to make a fortune there selling parkas and mukluks, because for the first time in history, snow will fall in November in South Africa.
Chris, please read the article again.
Another accomplishment of the W. He had to undo quite a few clownish moves of Slick Willie. Unfortunately, Fannie and Freddie were not among those that needed urgent remediation.
Peter says:
May 29, 2011 at 9:36 am
I see this year they’re being very careful to have their meeting in a place where there’s little or no possibility of cold weather
Lol. Yes, South Africa near mid-summer should be ok .
Good news.
Meanwhile, UK politicians reaffirm their commitment to pursue “moral leadership” on the issue, systematically ruining the landscape with innefective wind farms, eroding civil liberties, artificially raising the cost of energy, and hamstringing industry. Good one boys.
@chris y: May 29, 2011 at 9:32 am
@Smokey: May 29, 2011 at 9:40 am
No more calls, we have a winner!
Isn’t it amazing how William Jefferson Blythe Clinton just disappeared?
Now that is just too much. President Clinton authorized VP Gore to sign the Kyoto Protocol. Then the US Senate passed the Byrd-Hagel resolution 95-0 in July 1997 saying no way. Clinton is the one that didn’t send it to the Senate.
Byrd-Hagel Resolution
Tallbloke, Hopefully Gore will be thier and bring his goreffect with him to put a damper on things!
Looks like the UK is still part of this lunatic scheme
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol#Successor
Once again, it was William J. “It depends upon what the meaning of ‘is’ is” who signed the Kyoto Treaty but didn’t submit it to the Senate for ratification.
BTW: Obama didn’t sign Kyoto, either, a fact that is equally true and just as irrelevant.
Is that a Fat Lady I hear warming up?
In actuality, the Canadian government (i.e theruling Liberal Party) signed and ratified the Kyoto treaty only for show. They did absolutely nothing to impelment it. It was designed to show how morally superior Canada was over the US. This would play well in the Liberal Party bastion of Toronto.
In the recent election, the Liberals lost most of their support. The speculation about them now is about whether they will simply fade away or merge with the social democratic NDP. Theyeven chose a former NDP prime minster of the province of Ontario as their intrim leader. He is remembered as one of the worst prime minsters that Ontario ever had.
Dang! They noticed the ruse! How can we now bring forward the Great Transformation, Herr Schellnhuber? SCHELLNHUBER!
http://www.wbgu.de/fileadmin/templates/dateien/veroeffentlichungen/hauptgutachten/jg2011/wbgu_jg2011_kurz_en.pdf
DJ, it’s actually not that uncommon to have snow falling in South Africa in midsummer – but in the mountains. That’s about 100 miles from Durban and 12,000 feet up.
Well, that just hung the UK, New Zealand, and Australia out to dry………..
This leaves NZ, Australia, and the UK as the last of the true believers of any consequence
And what is the point about lying about Bush’s role?
“They argued that the Kyoto format did not require developing countries, including China, the world’s No. 1 carbon emitter, to make targeted emission cuts.”
A good way to avoid discussions about the real reasons (the reality) …
The European Union may as well replace their flag with a tombstone, and engrave the Precautionary Principle on it. Either that or start listening to Vaclav Havel.
I figured Kyoto was dead a while back when Japan announced it would not take part anymore. No doubt they may find themselves relying more on fossil fuel for their power needs in the future after recent issues with their nuclear power. Not agreeing with it, but that seems to be how things happen….
Deep down most (perhaps all) in the current Canadian governing party are skeptics, but the much of my fellow Canadians seem unready to hear that message in public. Fortunately, actions speak louder than words and the Torries’ “do nothing” approach was the smartest move they could have made all things considered.
@Patrick Guinness: May 29, 2011 at 10:38 am
“And what is the point about lying about Bush’s role?”
Bush was not a favorite of the French. Bush won’t call them out about it. Most of their readers wouldn’t question it. Therefore, no downside. Free cheap shot.
Almost Romm-ian, but not nasty enough.
I didn’t realize George W. Bush was president in 1997, 1998, 1999 and 2000…
I wouldn’t doubt it. After all, now he seems to have somehow gotten his hands on the Teleprompter: At last Thursday’s G8 dinner the US President, Barack Obama, confirmed Washington would not join an updated Kyoto Protocol, the diplomats said.
“They agreed to legally binding commitments on curbing greenhouse gas emissions blamed for global warming.”
Blamed for global warming. A refreshing choice of words.
“On July 25, 1997, John Kerry and Ted Kennedy, along w ith 93 other senators (with five senators not voting and none voting in opposition) adopted a resolution stating that ‘the United States should not be a signatory to any protocol to, or other agreement regarding, the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change of 1992, at negotiations in Kyoto.”
The vote was 95 to zero
“The US, the second-largest carbon emitter, signed the protocol in 1997 but in 2001 the then president, George W. Bush, said he would not put it to the Senate for ratification.”
This is the scenario the left wing media would like to have you believe.
Here is the real scenario
Gore may have signed the treaty in 1997, this required Senate Ratification to take effect.
Under Clinton the Senate rejected the treaty circa 95 to zero. No Democrat supported the treaty
Clinton never formally put the treaty before the Senate for approval. The media never criticized Clinton for doing nothing.
Three years passed and nothing was done by Clinton.
After Bush got elected and took office in 2001, (three years after Gore signed it) Bush said he would not put the treaty to the Senate for Ratification, the same action Clinton took. The same Democrats who did not vote for the treaty under Clinton criticized Bush constantly for backing out.
The media had a bird accusing Bush of being a polluter, while they never criticized Clinton for not asking the Senate to ratify the treaty.
Errors of omission and distortion of the facts still continue by the left.
pat @ May 29, 2011 at 10:38 am
Yes, but still it’s even worse in Sweden, Norway and Germany …
In the Scandinavian countries, traditional media are still engaged in deep censorship, probably in Germany too … The politicians would like to keep it this way …
A. The US never signed Kyoto, just because king Willie had his auto-pen prince Albert sign the protocol does not mean a damn thing.
B. The reason Bush did not send it to the senate was clearly spelled out in this speech on climate change. If you, as I had forgotten what an anti-science, denier W was, please read
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/transcripts/bushglobal_061101.htm
I echo Pat but would like to add Germany – see No Tricks Zone.
Maybe this development will bring them to their senses and maybe a re-examination of the data and science.
America never joined it in the first place.Because we knew better.
For years after the rejection made in 1997.America was attacked for NOT signing and called many names.
Now we have.France: Russia, Japan and Canada leaving it.
Does that mean should start calling names on those nations as well?
“The US, the second-largest carbon emitter, signed the protocol in 1997 but in 2001 the then president, George W. Bush, said he would not put it to the Senate for ratification.”
This is a misleading statement.It was Al Gore who set it up and President Clinton who signed it.But NEVER submitted it to the Senate for ratification.
The SENATE had already made it clear they would not ratify it as it is:
Byrd-Hagel Resolution
The resolution had a 95-0 vote behind it.That is why President Clinton never submitted it to the senate.He knew it was going to get smashed.
Here is what Senator Hagel said in 2002:
Opening Statement U.S. Senator Chuck Hagel
Joint Hearing of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee
and the Environment and Public Works Committee
July 24, 2002
http://epw.senate.gov/107th/Hagel_072402.htm
All this happened before President Bush came along.
Both President Bush and Obama have refused to sign it.Obama who could have done it,when he had that 60 senate majority to work with.Did not for similar reasons why Bush would not sign it.
British Government please note and follow.
Just a reminder about how much we got for our money.
Global Cost: $868 Billion
Global Warming supposedly averted by 2050: 0.009°C
CO2 Emissions Reduction: 0.3%
Cost per 1°C of Global Warming supposedly averted by 2050: $96.4 Trillion
http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com/2010/11/kyoto-protocol-scorecard-cost-868.html
“The US, the second-largest carbon emitter,…”
Well, maybe, as long as you don’t count whether or not there is carbon being sequestered by forest expansion. I have not seen much to do with forests and their growth in these conversations. Perhaps this aspect could be expanded.
Since the late 40’s Americans have been moving off the land into cities. The acreage of farmland returning to forests has been growing for a long time. The tonnage accumulated has absorbed something like 50% to 80% of all CO2 emitted by the USA. This is a very inconvenient fact though it was addressed in the 90’s by the greens saying that it should not be counted as it had first been cut down in the 1800’s therefore it was not really ‘growing’ and sequestering carbon. Huh.
Well, that fact remains that the US Eastern Forests are continuing to absorb at least 1/2 of all CO2 emitted, maybe 80% and this is not counted when doing the national CO2 emissions accounting. I have no idea as to the accurate number because it is so little discussed.
As far as I know, the USA as a ranked player in the CO2-emitting Games is only producing 20-50% of the claimed output. What is their real ranking?
A fairly courageous move by US, since it’s a slap in the face to China, the main beneficiary of Kyoto. China owns us economically… will there be some form of revenge?
Actually, most forms of revenge would do us a favor in the long run. If it becomes harder to manufacture things in China, we’ll have to start making things here, no matter how much American corporations HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE that idea.
“The US, the second-largest carbon emitter, signed the protocol in 1997 but in 2001 the then president, George W. Bush, said he would not put it to the Senate for ratification.”
Why is there no mention of Clinton putting it up to the Senate for ratification?
He was in office for another 3 years after it was signed.
The UK, NZ and Aus have hung themselves out to dry – unfortunately for people like me who live there 🙁
Good to see some Canadian sanity! But it didn’t take long for the CAGW Alarmists to fire up the printing presses:
“Canada has ‘more to lose than it realizes’: global warming report on Arctic”
http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/Canada+more+lose+than+realizes+Arctic+report/4858961/story.html
“Arctic shipping routes will open but ice highways in jeopardy: study”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/arctic-shipping-routes-will-open-but-ice-highways-in-jeopardy-study/article2038904/
Fom the link in DirkH May 29, 2011 at 10:22 am
“However, the move towards sustainable energy systems can only succeed if, concurrently, the huge potentials for efficiency increase are fully tapped, and changing our wasteful lifestyles is no longer a taboo subject, particularly in the industrialised and industrialising countries.
Several countries are currently planning to increase their use of nuclear energy. The WBGU urgently advises against this, above all because of the not negligible risk of serious damages, the still unresolved issues concerning final storage, and the danger of uncontrolled proliferation. Existing plants should be replaced by sustainable energy technologies as soon as possible, and, in the case of evident safety deficiencies, be closed down immediately. However, the phase-out of nuclear energy must not be compensated by renewed or intensified brown or black coal based energy generation.”
Does this sound so bad.
It is very easy to take the low cost option and become wealthy. Living off the backs of others is simple but not the “right” thing to do.
Some of the comments on this blog simple consider wealth. Where is the consideration for our grand children’s future. You are surely not leaving it to them to sort out our power mess and possibly our GW mess. Very sad
In Canada, after a succession of endless minority (aka “hung”) parliaments, we recently elected a majority, conservative government.
Finally, after years of having to watch their backs over every minor policy move, and somehow trying to square the circle of support for Alberta’s energy resources, and keeping the green lobby from pillorying them in the press, the government of Canada can actually make some genuine policy decisions. I applaud our prime minister for doing what was unthinkable a few short years ago.
In Cancun Japan told the IPCC where to stuff the Kyoto Protocol for 2012. I recall seeing a reference link at WUWT to a climate reconstruction the Japanese did using cherry blossoms etc. to show our current warming is not unprecedented. Can anyone locate the link to that WUWT comment from a Cancun IPCC post ?
This does not mean the spirit and objectives of the Kyoto Protocol are dead. They are merely abandoning the formula of Kyoto because it was unfair when set out and became increasingly unfair as the Chinese economy exploded.
There is too much invested in the CO2 reduction game with its potential for increased taxes, more government control and development of the completely inadequate replacements of alternate energies for abandonment.
Come on Mr Cameron, don’t align yourself with the fanatical Australions or New Zealanders as far as climate change is concerned . Accept that times have changed since the Kyoto farce and sensible countries are accepting that they were misled by the clever global warming scam in 1997. Show leadership by overuling your Secretary for Energy and Climate Change and don’t continue to be misled by those who are shown to have falsified the scare and whose ‘research’ just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. Now is the time for courage and to join those sensible nations who have seen the light and who will not sign up to another round of carbon cuts. Please don’t let the UK be the last country in the World to see the light.
People like this aren’t going to give up easily:
http://www.thegwpf.org/international-news/3095-germany-sliding-head-over-heels-into-the-eco-dictatorship.html
Expect some absolutely fantastic Big Lies to try to scare the lemmings into line. Hard to imagine how they could top what they have done so far but I am sure they will try.
Have they tried the ‘skeptics are racists’ line yet?
So this is how a dastardly plan for world domination finally ends, not with a bang but a long drawn out whimper instead. Hardly James Bond is it? And hard to see how it can ever be revived.
What is amazing is how a cabal of politically committed but presumably intelligent people imagined it could actually be made to happen and wasted so much of their lives on trying to to bring it about. And must now content themselves with their ill gotten pennies.
Sad, very sad, especially for us poor taxpayers who funded all this stupidity and will continue doing so for a few years yet until it all finally sinks without trace: leaving only echoes behind.
Kindest Regards
Crispin in Waterloo says:
May 29, 2011 at 11:28 am
And look at Canada. Less CO2 uptake in slower growing boreal forest but look at the size of it. And younger regrowing forests suck up more CO2.
Gets even better when you compare it to 12,000 years ago.
Thank you for this article Anthony. – Things are now becoming urgent:
I think it is now high time for me to buy some “Real Estate” in Antarctica as without a refreshed KYOTO agreement Antarctica is likely to be the world’s only habitable continent by the end of this century if global warming remains unchecked, ——— the Government’s chief scientist, Professor Sir David King, said in April —————– 2004.
@walt man
I agree 100% and join you in condemning China and India for not showing a moral lead on this issue
Tom Grey writes “He is remembered as one of the worst prime minsters that Ontario ever had.”
First, a minor point. Ontario does not have a Prime Minister; it has a Premier. Second, I, for one, do not regard Bob Rae as a bad Premier. He was unfortunate to be in charge during a financial crisis. He applied all the standard socialist methods to solve the problem, and they did not work. So he applied all the capatilist ideas as to how to solve the problem, and they did work. In doing so, he succeeded in making himself unpopular with just about everyone. My late wife and I once played tennis against Bob and his wife; they were a delightful couple.
Tim Ball says on May 29, 2011 at 11:48 am:
“ ————. There is too much invested in the CO2 reduction game with its potential for increased taxes, more government control and development of the completely inadequate replacements of alternate energies for abandonment.”
Too right Tim, – pension funds, – “China Bonds”- renewable energy generating plant production (i.e. La Mancha produced wind-mill blades). Oh dear, oh dear what is it coming to Don Quixote – slayer of dragons, windmills and defender of ladies in distress.
Peter says:
May 29, 2011 at 9:36 am
“I see this year they’re being very careful to have their meeting in a place where there’s little or no possibility of cold weather”
It won’t be cold by northern standards – just wet, windy and miserable. The heat doesn’t usually arrive till the second or third week of December. Pre-summer storms could result in some flooding which would give the warmists another example of “things are getting worse”.
walt man says:
May 29, 2011 at 11:40 am
“Fom the link in DirkH May 29, 2011 at 10:22 am
“However, the move towards sustainable energy systems can only succeed if, […]closed down immediately. However, the phase-out of nuclear energy must not be compensated by renewed or intensified brown or black coal based energy generation.”
Does this sound so bad.”
Well, they also urge a UN sustainability council responsible for a worldwide suppression of whatever they deem unsustainable. (They have the time to put it in more gentle words than I, being full time paid public masterplanners.) Last time i checked no UN personnel was democratically elected by you or me. Read more here.
http://notrickszone.com/2011/05/28/schellnhubersmerkels-authoritarian-wbgu-blasted-from-all-sides-mocked-no-one-intends-to-build-a-wall/
No Climate progress to share the headlines? Surely they are crowing the Joplin tornado was the tipping point.
I believe that Senate had a Democrat majority from the 1950’s to 2002. To blame the Senate’s failure to ratify the Kyoto Accord on Bush is revisionist (read Stalinist) history intended to paint Bush as an evil climate failure.
I believe that the climate failure is Gore – not Bush.
Al Gored says:
May 29, 2011 at 11:58 am
“People like this aren’t going to give up easily:
http://www.thegwpf.org/international-news/3095-germany-sliding-head-over-heels-into-the-eco-dictatorship.html
Expect some absolutely fantastic Big Lies to try to scare the lemmings into line. Hard to imagine how they could top what they have done so far but I am sure they will try.”
You should have seen the reports about Fukushima in the German media, and the ensuing and still raging anti nuclear demonstrations here. Big Lie describes it very well; the media had a field day. Now, 10 people here are already dead from EHEC carrying organic cucumbers, probably the cucumbers have been tainted by being fertilized with residue from biogas plants. Nobody demonstrates against that. The masses here are completely deluded and run into the rat trap voluntarily. I watch the crazy ways of my fellow citizens with incredulity.
At face value, ideas like this often sound great, especially when you take them at face value and don’t think them through. Who could be against “fairness,” “compassion,” or doing something “for the children?”
But the rub, ah the rub, comes in actual implementation. Perhaps you feel the best solution to inequality is to bring down those whom you feel have more, while I know the best answer to poverty is the creation, and NOT the redistribution, of wealth.
I love this news!
On a related note: Andrew Weaver is speaking at the Canadian Congress of the Humanities and Social Sciences being held at Fredericton, New Brunswick, on Tuesday May 31, at the Ted Daigle Auditoriam, Edmund Casey Hall, UNB. I post this here as his talk is not about his science; rather he has joined the rear-guard action to try to re-whip up a frenzy in the uninformed populace about the reality of global warming. I guess governments in the more savvy western countries finally realize that even if the hype were true, the economic costs just aren’t worth the ‘fight’ against global warming. I don’t know if I will be gong as my association has a meeting at the same time, and I’m also not sure my blood pressure could stand the bafflegab.
Anyway, here’s the attached blurb in the Congress Delegates’ Guide:
“Canadians across the country are already feeling the effects of a warming climate. Yet, there is much confusion and misinformation complicating the public’s understanding of the issue. A stew of science, economics, ideology and spin characterize the discourse on global warming- making it almost impossible for citizens to develop informed opinions on the topic.
In his 2011 “Big Thinking” lecture at the Congress of the Humanities and Social Sciences, Andrew Weaver will explore how climate scientists can effectively communicate with the media, government, and the public, resulting in evidence-based public policy and better informed citizens making choices about their future.
A recognized expert in both climate science and science communication, Andrew Weaver holds the Canadian research Chair in Climate Modelling and Science at the University of Victoria, British Columbia.
And where does that leave the EU and its subject client region the former UK I wonder? Up a certain creek without a certain motivational implement. The CAGW industry has just received a mortal blow from which it cannot recover. When the final bill comes in for the CAGW fraud it will run to hundreds of billions of pounds utterly wasted.
What price the UKs own mandatory carbon reduction plan which will now be less than meaningless, an insane gesture from a generation of political leaders indoctrinated and fascinated by gesture politics. The UK was in at the start of the CAGW fraud and it will probably be the last to abandon this most grotesque of modern nightmares.
P.S. Spring in Fredericton is about a month behind here compared to last year, according to my sister-in-law, who has been working at a garden centre. Cold, wet and miserable spring.
“It’s all over.” Now you are the one sounding alarmist.
a jones says:
May 29, 2011 at 12:02 pm
So this is how a dastardly plan for world domination finally ends, not with a bang but a long drawn out whimper instead. Hardly James Bond is it? And hard to see how it can ever be revived…
Quite right. When I was a lad (in sunny Lancashire) these people were just called ‘cranks.’ One World Government is nothing but a psychopath’s wet dream. I suppose there are still a number of these around in the political world, and their ‘useful idiots.’ I expect there will be attempts.
Yay! Let’s hear it for Canada! An often overlooked and ignored country – and frankly, we prefer it that way 🙂
Fodge Greenpeace. I’m sure Ecotretas agrees 🙂
It’s clear that Julia’s Carbon Dioxide tax here in Australia will have such a huge impact on reducing the terrible consequences of cataclysmic global warming that the fact that these minor nations pull the pin will no longer matter.
/sarc/
Bold move from Harper but Oh man… we will get flooded by Liz May and Suzuki about this. They will produce more than their share of CO2 from the hot air they will spew.
Ellis says:
May 29, 2011 at 11:12 am
George understood the uncertainties involved.
He should have stopped there instead of continuing on with the blah, blah blah.
walt man @
May 29, 2011 at 11:40 am : Existing plants should be replaced by sustainable energy technologies as soon as possible, and, in the case of evident safety deficiencies, be closed down immediately. However, the phase-out of nuclear energy must not be compensated by renewed or intensified brown or black coal based energy generation.”
Does this sound so bad.
—————————————————
Yes, it does if by “sustainable energy technologies” they meant wind and solar PV. Both are very expensive, not always available, don’t save as much CO2 as folk claim, cause other forms of pollution (noise, flicker, bird slicing, pollution from rare earth extraction, visual pollution, etc).
No modern society can function without continuous power, and if these renewables get above a small % of total generation, extra spinning and hot standby reserve is needed to compensate for lulls, emitting CO2 for no result, and grid stability can be a problem too.
A proper evolution is needed, over longer time, probably gas to substitute for coal, while building more and safer nuclear, and researching other technologies such as Thorium reactors. Parallel with major energy efficiency drives, house insulation, and such things as solar thermal for water heating/pre heating, heat exchangers on clean waste water, etc.
CAGW panic helps no one.
I know it’s been said a million times, but as some still don’t get it I’ll repeat it in simple terms:
CO2 emissions = productivity. Agreeing to cut CO2 emissions = agreeing to cut productivity or to move production and manufacturing to another country.
Way to destroy the economies of the countries who make the biggest contribution in terms of goods and ingenuity, i.e. the industrialised world.
This about sums up Maurice Strong’s dream.
Nice to see our allies, especially our friends to the north, step in to help when we’ve injured ourselves. We hope this is a temporary disability lasting ’til late 2012 or so.
walt man says:
May 29, 2011 at 11:40 am
……
Where is the consideration for our grand children’s future. You are surely not leaving it to them to sort out our power mess and possibly our GW mess. Very sad
end quote
It IS my children (and putative grandchidren) I’m thinking of.
I don’t want them to inherit an energy scare/energy expensive feudal society.
We can’t afford as a society to cripple our industries any more.
We can’t afford as humanity to go back to energy starved economies – those that do NOT have cheap power – as they condemn people to short brutal lives.
Think of the children indeed; think of the children who will never live beyond age 5 as energy poor economies have child mortality rates approaching 50%.
Think of those who; because there is no mechanical power have to live as beasts of burden (sew the glowing references to using rickshaws here : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthcomment/geoffrey-lean/8543152/Hay-Festival-For-the-greenest-nation-look-west.html#dsq-content – rickshaws indeed).
Think of YOUR children having the choices typical of the underclasses in the middle ages; whilst hearing stories told by the wandering minstrels of the wonders their grandfathers stupidly gave up for a myth.
10/10 for getting it wrong – no pressure !
R. I. P.
Ironically, the Kyoto Protocol was based upon the Montréal Protocol, a Canadian city, whereby the Ozone hole was to be healed by countries banning evil refrigerants. This was a supposedly successful model for international action to solve an “environmental problem”.
In fact, it was just a fiction, as the “hole” is still there and is of quite natural causes. However, it did give enviromentalists (sic) the precedent of using the UN to enforce their fascist whimsies.
DEAUVILLE, France: Russia, Japan and Canada told the G8 they would not join a second round of carbon cuts under the Kyoto Protocol at United Nations talks this year and the US reiterated it would remain outside the treaty, European diplomats have said.
——————————————————————————-
Joolya in Oz. The jig is up babe – quit while you are ahead. Join your mates in Nth America and the far east – As Maggie once said ‘Ditch the Euro(s)’
John Key in NZ. You are good at playing with weasel words. Get Sir Peter Gluckman your Chief Science Advisor to revise a few from this statement to get you off the hook now. http://www.pmcsa.org.nz/issues/climate_change/ Plenty of ‘wriggle room’ here.
Douglas
Robert of Ottawa says @ May 29, 2011 at 1:25 pm
Fode Greenpeace. Darn typos, where do they come from!
We must have the leadership of China because China’s big and strong and he’s our hero.
We have never accomplished anything without the leadership of China.
Here’s a thought: replace the sales tax with a revenue-neutral carbon tax, like the VAT, only covering the carbon emissions of bunker coal rather than the value-added.
China will come around fast. Or else jobs will come back. Win-win.
Excellent!
Now can we start winding down all the useless NGO’s that seem to have sprung up like so many ticks on the backs of governments around the world? They need to start doing some work thats really productive to help get us out of the GFC…
Nuke says: May 29, 2011 at 12:56 pm
“But the rub, ah the rub, comes in actual implementation. Perhaps you feel the best solution to inequality is to bring down those whom you feel have more, while I know the best answer to poverty is the creation, and NOT the redistribution, of wealth.”
I would love everyone’s standard of living to be brought up to USA. Do you think the world can sustain this level?
If not then how do you propose to level out the inequality.
Throw the only US signer of the Kyoto protocol under the bus and drive over him with it and a fleet of running SUVs for good measure. Its the end of the road for the framework and the framers, train drivers, lying scientifically skilled advocates, and science rappers. Goodbye and good riddence! Also, good luck getting a paying job.
walt man says: May 29, 2011 at 11:40 am
Fom the link in DirkH May 29, 2011 at 10:22 am
[“However, the move towards sustainable energy systems can only succeed if, concurrently, the huge potentials for efficiency increase are fully tapped, and changing our wasteful lifestyles is no longer a taboo subject, particularly in the industrialised and industrialising countries.—-Several countries are currently planning to increase their use of nuclear energy. The WBGU urgently advises against this,, the phase-out of nuclear energy must not be compensated by renewed or intensified brown or black coal based energy generation.”
Does this sound so bad.It is very easy to take the low cost option and become wealthy. Living off the backs of others is simple but not the “right” thing to do. Where is the consideration for our grand children’s future. You are surely not leaving it to them to sort out our power mess and possibly our GW mess. Very sad]
————————————————————————-
walt man. How muddled can you get? You have outline a sure path back to cave dwelling for the future by even contemplating that the programme outlined above does not ‘sound so bad‘ – then you have the temerity to invoke the tired old ‘grand children’s future’ meme conflated with the GW mess myth that is causing the power ‘mess’ we are now in precipitated bt the AGW bs. That programme is the certain path to ruin for the grand children – if there are any by then.
Douglas
at last some sense
unfortunately the Aussie Govt is completely senseless
The spittle from the Red-Green is not crocodile tears.
Them Red-Greens are shocked, shocked.
>>> “University of British Columbia political scientist George Hoberg blogged today:
The 2011 Canadian election is very bad news for the climate movement.”
It’s W’s fault.
More, please.
…-
“Canada Turns Away From Climate Policy”
“But this is an environmental blog—what does the Canadian election mean for environmental and climate policy? As it turns out, nothing very good. I’ll explain why in a second, but first of all, there’s something you need to know about Canada. Americans like to picture Canada as a progressive, friendly, extremely green and Kyoto Protocol-signing sort of country—and in many ways it is. But the truth is, Canada is also a petrostate. The country has 175.2 billion barrels of oil in reserves, third-most in the world, and it produces 2.6 million barrels of crude oil a day. When we think of foreign oil in the U.S., most of us imagine a Saudi sheik or a Venezuelan despot, but the single biggest supplier of foreign oil to the U.S. is our friendly neighbor to the north. And thanks to the growth of oil sands (or tar sands, depending on how polluting you consider them), petroleum and fossil fuel energy in general has only become more important to the Canadian economy, moving the country’s power center to the West, where politicians like Harper hail from.
So Harper’s clear victory means you can expect more industry-friendly policies from the now ruling Conservative Party, which is a little bit like Republicans-lite. That also means that Canada will continue its antagonism on the global climate stage, where it has long since abandoned any possibility of meeting its Kyoto carbon reduction targets, not that it was going to happen anyway. (Harper, back in a 2002 letter, referred to the Kyoto Protocol as a “socialist scheme.”) Like his ideological counterpart George W. Bush, Harper doesn’t seem to have much interest in dealing with climate change or energy, aside from the oil and gas that has helped Canada thrive recently. His position was in stark opposition to the opposition NDP, which offered more support for clean energy and—importantly—was ready to offer a carbon cap-and-trade program. But the Conservatives argued—in very familiar language—that carbon pricing would be increase energy prices and be a drag on the economy. Last night—in a possible example of what Roger Pielke Jr.’s “iron law of climate policy”—the Conservatives won, meaning that for now, carbon pricing in Canada is even less likely than it will be in the U.S.
It wasn’t all bad—the fact that the Green Party now has a member in parliament puts Canada ahead of the U.S., while the NDP has proven to be a stronger green party on its own than the Liberals ever were. Harper’s Conservatives may have a majority in Parliament, but they won less than 40% of the vote by number, meaning that public opinion on climate and the environment may be significantly more divided than the results suggest. And like in America, climate change and energy policy doesn’t appear to have been a major issue for most voters. But there’s no getting around the fact, as University of British Columbia political scientist George Hoberg blogged today:
The 2011 Canadian election is very bad news for the climate movement.”
http://ecocentric.blogs.time.com/2011/05/03/canada-turns-away-from-climate-policy/
Kyoto was doomed at.. Kyoto itself. There could never be global agreement on energy starvation. Now the ship is being abandoned. Still there are a few countries refusing to jump ship, but soon they will have to since everything is pointing that way; economically, scientifically, politically….
And then there’s the Rossi catalyser that will be making it’s first 1 MW (heat) power plants come this November in Greece and the US. This is real technology… a paradigm shift… energy at 1c per KWHr
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=360
If this is true, and there is nothing to indicate otherwise, the first to fall are the wind turbine and PV manufacturers since these are the most expensive energy producers. So, for this reason, there is going to be a dirty war against Ing. Rossi and his industry.
As Ghandi had said about his enemies: First they try to ignore you, then they try to ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win.
Presently, this technology is in phase one of this war. Officialdom of Big Science and the MSM are practically ignoring this ground breaking development which will change the face of the earth like the discovery of fire did. Next scientists will try to ridicule the science and technology of this invention, but this phase will be short lived. Then Big Green will start a fight to try to stop the technology on various excuses, such as because it is nuclear, or dangerous, or long-term effects not known or whatever stupidities they try to come up with. Then Rossi will win……and humanity. Meanwhile the price of hydrocarbon fuels will plummet for everyone’s joy.
Minor quibble – the headline doesn’t appear to be correct in the referenced report
The report says
DEAUVILLE, France: Russia, Japan and Canada told the G8 they would not join a second round of carbon cuts under the Kyoto Protocol at United Nations talks this year and the US reiterated it would remain outside the treaty, European diplomats have said.
Note the colon after France
I wonder if the EU, France gone, would continue on its suicidal course.
Germany (and the UK) certainly has some alignment job to be done. No pressure.
Oh-oh, this means Canada is going to have some stiff competition for the coveted “colossal fossil” award at the next climate whingefest, in Durban, South Africa.
Durban could well be their swan song, so they should go out in style. Perhaps a rendition of “(Give Me That) Old-Time Religion” would fit.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110529/wl_asia_afp/australiacarbonenvironmententertainmentblanchett
talking about Hollywood…
walt man says:
May 29, 2011 at 11:40 am
Some of the comments on this blog simple consider wealth. Where is the consideration for our grand children’s future. You are surely not leaving it to them to sort out our power mess and possibly our GW mess. Very sad
I would note the internal migration pattern in the US is southward…indicating a pronounced preference for a warmer climate.
As far as the mess with the windmills and solar panels, I expect they will all be broken or worn out in 20-30 years. Just as the windmills and solar panels that were installed when Jimmy Carter was president stopped working.
walt man says:
May 29, 2011 at 11:40 am
It is very easy to take the low cost option and become wealthy. Living off the backs of others is simple but not the “right” thing to do.
walt man, the WBGU group is about as overtly Totalitarian as possible, and that is their real goal, not saving the Planet, etc.. It is their vision which, qua Communism, has always led to the type of “becoming wealthy” you are referring to, that is, the Master-Slave society – where the Slave side of the system becomes progressively more impoverished via the forceful appropriation of their wealth – though still “equal” – so
that the Master class can maintain its wealthy condition.
I don’t think you really want that, do you?
But you, along with many other people, have got yourself locked into an incorrect perception of things such that that’s where you are forced to go. So it’s solely up to you to escape, again, if indeed you even want to.
But, simply as a tiny goad, let me ask you this: surely you can’t keep on maintaining that the level of wealth-creation disparity between Communist countries such as North Korea and Capitalist countries such South Korea and America is explained by the latter countries being better at enslaving people?
walt man says:
“I would love everyone’s standard of living to be brought up to USA. Do you think the world can sustain this level?”
Absolutely, without any doubt. You have everything exactly backward: the richer the country, the less pollution is generated. That is a demonstrable fact, eg: China vs Taiwan and Singapore; North Korea vs South Korea, etc.
And other countries are simply not going to curtail their economic growth in order to limit a harmless and beneficial trace gas. It just will not happen.
The Berlin Wall was brought down by the East Germans largely because they had radios and TVs and they spoke with their relatives in the West, and they could see what they were missing. Same people, same culture, same geography. The only difference was that one had a free market economy, and the other had state socialism, which is what you [and plenty of others] seem to want. But when the Wall came down, it was found that the extent of industrial pollution in East Germany was staggering. No scrubbers on smokestacks, industrial waste dumped untreated into rivers, mine tailings everywhere, and lakes of toxic poisons leaching into the soil.
The free market has always proved that the Malthusians and the Luddites are wrong. Always. The direct result of a more prosperous world will be substantially less pollution. If the scales ever fall from your eyes you will see that warmth is better than cold, and rich countries are better for the planet than poor countries. Word up, my man. Planet Earth needs prosperity.
Quick, somebody shovel some dirt on Kyoto. Drive a stake in it’s heart. The issue I’ve always had with this and related BS, is the simple fact that I object to the world’s busybodies telling me how I should live my life. They can all go pound sand.
“The US, the second-largest carbon emitter”, no, that would be the EU
There is a reason that the UK is the country most pushing this.
They rely on the finance sector for an unhealthy proportion of their GDP (something like 35%) and 80% of the carbon trading now occurs in London.
They desperately want to get more rent of the rest of the world.
“They argued that the Kyoto format did not require developing countries, including China, the world’s No. 1 carbon emitter, to make targeted emission cuts”
Not the real reason they should be opting out. It supports, or at least does not combat the contention that carbon emission cuts are necessary.
Doesn’t help us in the UK and the rest of EUrope – here the lunatics are still running the asylum. They will continue to destroy our economies with home grown schemes whatever happens to Kyoto +
I guess we’ll have to wait until we have enough cold and hungry people to change their minds for them – permanently!
Seems like even some government are ignoring the CAGW loving MSM.
John
Latitude says:
Well, that just hung the UK, New Zealand, and Australia out to dry………..
Or showed them where it’s sunny and warm to dry the “global warming snow (job)” off of themselves…
walt man says:
I would love everyone’s standard of living to be brought up to USA. Do you think the world can sustain this level?
Yes. Easily.
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/there-is-no-shortage-of-stuff/
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2009/03/20/there-is-no-energy-shortage/
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2009/05/29/ulum-ultra-large-uranium-miner-ship/
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2010/08/08/everything-from-mud/
“The US, the second-largest carbon emitter,”…..
Oh, you must have mistaken France-presse; it’s carbon DIOXIDE not carbon. Details details. Or maybe you were trying to slant the story France-presse? You wouldn’t mean to insinuate that carbon=black=dirty would you? Nah…
Smokey says: May 29, 2011 at 2:54 pm
you stated :“I would love everyone’s standard of living to be brought up to USA. Do you think the world can sustain this level?”
Absolutely, without any doubt. You have everything exactly backward: the richer the country, the less pollution is generated. That is a demonstrable fact, eg: China vs Taiwan and Singapore; North Korea vs South Korea, etc.
The sums:
oil us/day ………………………………..2.10E+07 barrels/day
population of USA is …………………3.08E+08
world population………………………..6.92E+09
World oil Reserves…………………….1.24E+12 barrels
oil/USA person………………………….6.82E-02 barrels/day
assume same in rest of wrld ……..4.72E+08 barrels/day
reserves will last for…………………..2.63E+03 days
This equates to ………………………….7.21 years
So I ask again – Can the world support this?
Hoorah! Hoorah! Hoorah!
Put Holdren, Hansen, Schmidt, and their minions on suicide watch.
Let shame pour down on Australia, England, and Germany like Niagara Falls.
Let bankruptcy embrace every Green company with a most loving and lingering French-kiss.
Of course, Warmista will try every ploy in the book to keep their GravyTrain chugging along. After all, they have Big Lisa and her EPA. But this announcement should be the last straw for investors. The message from Russia is clear. They are going to exploit all their natural resources (strategic advantages) and to hell with everyone else. Honesty is so refreshing.
Leftist UK Red-Green Guardian: Buried.
>>> *”This gloomy assessment was borne out at last week’s summit of the G8 group of leading industrialised nations in Deauville, a two-hour train ride from the IEA’s offices in Paris, where hopes that world leaders would discuss climate issues were dashed. Russia, Japan and Canada reportedly told the meeting they would refuse to join a second round of carbon cuts under the Kyoto protocol. Greenpeace accused leaders of “gambling with our future”.”
“Ailing UN climate talks jolted by record surge in greenhouse gases”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/may/29/record-greenhouse-gases-jolt-bonn-climate-talks
New Zealand has fallen into the trap, the UK is so far in it may never get out, and now Australia is poised to go down this insane track that leads to penury. I agree that prosperity for all comes only from more energy and more production, not from a return to the pre-industrial world that the alarmists would have us live in. Yesterday I heard a sincere alarmist say that Australia was behind all the rest of the world in adopting a huge ‘climate tax’. Apparently China, India, and the USA, none of which have taken any such action, anr no longer part of the world!
Ripper says:
May 29, 2011 at 3:09 pm
There is a reason that the UK is the country most pushing this.
They rely on the finance sector for an unhealthy proportion of their GDP (something like 35%) and 80% of the carbon trading now occurs in London.
They desperately want to get more rent of the rest of the world.
Tax all foreigners living abroad? That’s a worn out idea.
back to the drawing board with out any paper maybe they could use toilet paper
walt man
May 29, 2011 at 3:59 pm
###
And what in the world does oil have to do with standard of living? You reasoning is just more non-sense. Standard of living is related to ENERGY not OIL, sheesh. Besides your numbers are bogus.
David, UK says:
May 29, 2011 at 1:31 pm
“I know it’s been said a million times, but as some still don’t get it I’ll repeat it in simple terms:”
“CO2 emissions = productivity. Agreeing to cut CO2 emissions = agreeing to cut productivity or to move production and manufacturing to another country.”
David, let me add to what you’ve said here, which I think is very important. The CAGW scientific crowd and their enablers in the government and major media are all about destroying other people’s jobs, while at the same time ensuring billions of dollars for themselves through government “climate science” programs. Do you think Jim Hansen with his six figure government salary (not including generous health and pension benefits) cares about steel workers, oil rig crews, coal miners, truckers , … your job? Of course not! He wants to shut down these people’s jobs (and more) and tax the rest of us on our “carbon usage” because he is “dead certain” that his global warming catastrophe fantasies will come true.
Remember this next time you see these people on TV. Do you think they would sacrifice their jobs for the good of “the planet”*?
* When someone you know starts blabbering about “the planet,” please ask them to be more specific and tell you which “planet” they are referring to… “the planet” is such an idiotic way to refer to “the Earth”!
Canada is the rider on the top of the elephant and that rider goes pretty much where the elephant chooses to go. The Conservative governments have merely paid lip service to CAGW with a policy that Canadians will follow the lead of America on CO2 emissions control. This was and is the only sane policy when your neighbour and biggest trading partner has ten times your population and you are a northern country. The NDP on the other hand had the ludicrous idea that Canada could be in the vanguard of CO2 emissions reduction, expecting that Canada’s shining example would bring world wide admiration and emulation. The Liberals in the middle had a policy somewhere between the Conservatives good sense and the NDP’s green rapture. With the Conservative’s majority government, skeptical Canadians can breath a sigh of relief and have some assurance that their federal government is unlikely to do something on the climate control front for four years. Perchance, the death of Kyoto is a harbinger of the death of CAGW.
Smokey says:
May 29, 2011 at 2:54 pm
=============================
Smokey, you are exactly right (those other two were just flukes 😉
The very economies the greenies are trying to destroy, are exactly what they are going to need to pull it off.
But then, it’s really not about “green” anyway……………..
walt man says:
May 29, 2011 at 2:10 pm
I would love everyone’s standard of living to be brought up to USA. Do you think the world can sustain this level?
If not then how do you propose to level out the inequality
———————————————————————————-
Walt man. When has the standard of living ever been equal in the world? What makes you think that it ever will be? What goes up tend to come down. That applies to standards of living as much as anything else. Could be that China’s for example, far exceeds that of the US in a few years. At the rate things are going at present, that of the US might be even lower than, say Brazil’s. Enjoy.
Douglas
Greenpeace will move on to something else and will continue to be funded by businesses that they make feel guilty to the tune of billions of dollars. And all they have to do is sit around in silly polar bear costumes and paint graffiti on ships and walls.
Frank K. says:
May 29, 2011 at 4:44 pm
“* When someone you know starts blabbering about “the planet,” please ask them to be more specific and tell you which “planet” they are referring to… “the planet” is such an idiotic way to refer to “the Earth”!”
Everybody writing in English seems to have a nervous tic when it comes to naming Earth. The most prominent version of the nervous tic removes the capitalization. People write “the earth.” No one writes “the mars” or the “the jupiter.” Another form of the tic keeps the capitalization but adds a gratuituous ‘the’, as in “That planet is the Earth.” No one writes “That planet is the Uranus.”
My guess is that the nervous tic exists because we can refer to “the earth” beneath our feet, which means the ground we stand on. Blokes working with electrical wiring face another temptation because they are often tempted to “earth it,” meaning “ground it.”
“walt man says:
May 29, 2011 at 11:40 am”
So tell us Walt how you have changed your lifestyle to practice what you preach?
This too was expected.
“As economic policy, the Kyoto Accord is a disaster. As environmental policy it is a fraud”: Stephen Harper, Prime Minister of Canada.
A fraud, I could not have put it better myself.
“Amino Acids in Meteorites says:
May 29, 2011 at 5:00 pm”
I believe ocean acidification is the next big thing in doomsday pronouncements.
“Brantgoose says:
May 29, 2011 at 1:42 pm
We must have the leadership of China because China’s big and strong and he’s our hero.
We have never accomplished anything without the leadership of China.”
That true, the Chinese could have chosen to murder millions of their citizens, and they chose not to. That’s a tremendous accomplishment that all other world leader failed to do.
Wow!
Well done China men.
In this regard you are the best.
walt man says:
I would love everyone’s standard of living to be brought up to USA. Do you think the world can sustain this level?
walt man, along with what Smokey and E.M. Smith [wow!] have presented, it seems fairly obvious to me that the main threat to almost any level of foreseeable “sustainability”, at least beyond a sustained slavery complete with severe impoverishment, would be Totalitarianism. It’s completely controlling of, and parasitic upon, other people, including their minds – and therefore including anything they might produce, and hence will tend to decreasingly produce and never produce or invent, etc. – while flirting strongly with completely destroying the “host”. People are not ants.
“walt man says:
May 29, 2011 at 3:59 pm”
Bad numbers Walt. The US uses 21,000,000 barrels per day which is 2.1 x 10 E+7 not what you put down. 2.10E+7 works out to 180.1 barrels per day. If you can’t get the basic math right what else are you getting wrong. BTW there are far more reserves than you are showing regarding oil.
Anthony.
My sort-of-regular monthly contribution is in.
Iapogus – Black Watch, 8PM, Saturday 4th.
Cheers!
“Yeah, the first transport is away!” – Rebels yelling victory as they escape the grasp of the Evil Empire, Star Wars, the Empire Strikes Back
By the way, Polar Bears in Ottawa would be shot as soon as possible, likely dead (although they might move them).
Glorious
OT -bubbagyro
For the record, the Bush a
admin pushed for Fannie & Freddie reforms in 2001, 2003, 2003, 2004 & 2006 but Chris Dodd in the Senate and Barney Frank in the House blocked all attempts, saying “Fannie and Freddie were sound and did not need any attention”! They knew this because their guys (Raines & someone else) were in charge and told them so. Their duplicity screwed you and me and the Dems got rewarded with a Presidential win in 2008, so we got screwed twice.
Bill
walt man says:
“May 29, 2011 at 3:59 pm
Smokey says: May 29, 2011 at 2:54 pm
you stated :“I would love everyone’s standard of living to be brought up to USA. Do you think the world can sustain this level?”
Absolutely, without any doubt. You have everything exactly backward: the richer the country, the less pollution is generated. That is a demonstrable fact, eg: China vs Taiwan and Singapore; North Korea vs South Korea, etc.
The sums:
oil us/day ………………………………..2.10E+07 barrels/day
population of USA is …………………3.08E+08
world population………………………..6.92E+09
World oil Reserves…………………….1.24E+12 barrels
oil/USA person………………………….6.82E-02 barrels/day
assume same in rest of wrld ……..4.72E+08 barrels/day
reserves will last for…………………..2.63E+03 days
This equates to ………………………….7.21 years
So I ask again – Can the world support this?”
Yes, because the real world doesn’t care about faulty logic and bad math. Man has mined gold and diamonds and other scarce stuff, and used oil, for thousands of years, yet here we are, still using. Apparently oil is leaking all natural, and has done so for tens of thousands of years, and the planet still keeps on leaking. So, essentially, it is not the planet that is small. :p
Here we go Canada, here we go!
Finally, logic and reason prevail over lobby groups, fear-mongering, and emotional over-reaction.
Damn. First Osama and then this. I’m buying more lottery tickets!!! 😀
I’m sick of trying to poist tips to the tips page – so from now on it will just be on the most relevant article. Today’s Tip regarding the use of propaganda in Australi – Cate Blanchett and Michael Caton being used as stooges by the Gillard Propaganda Unit. Look it up –
A $20 donation to my favorite Climate site in celebration.
Thank you, Anthony.
I second Bill with his correction of the Fannie/Freddie calumny against Bush, who submitted (or had submitted) 17 separate bills to audit, regulate, and otherwise hold accountable both Fannie and Freddie, only to be stymied by the Dodd/Frank crook duo and their minions every time. I saw the housing debacle coming when credit rules were eased, so I got out of real estate; glad I did. Bush had a clear-eyed view of reality, which is hard for a lot of people to like; but there it was. He tried; had he succeeded, we would be far better off today. His clarity of vision certainly extended to Kyoto.
@Al Gored:
“Have they tried the ‘skeptics are racists’ line yet?”
Yep:
“Climate Racists”
Neil Jones says:
May 29, 2011 at 11:18 am
British Government please note and follow.
Don’t count on it, to many ideological ‘green’ idiots out there, and its a wonderful tax for the gov’t!! To bad too, its a wonderful province.
Don’t be too hard on Australia.
there’s still hope for us yet a while.
The bill to tax carbon dioxide emissions has not been put to parliament yet.
The Green – Labour – Independents coalition are still trying to see how many angels can dance on the head of a very small pea:-
How to punish those wicked poluters and drive them into bankruptcy, without destroying any jobs whatsoever and how to overcompensate the 99.999% of the population who are not the filthy rich and who otherwise many not like costs rising steadily, year after year under this fine new taxing program.
Should not be a problem.
What do you think?
and now for an election in australia with the parties (opposition included) being forced to declare whether or not they intend to commodify carbon dioxide in any form whatsoever. i will never vote for any party who touches CO2.
“If not then how do you propose to level out the inequality.”
Who do I look like, Trotsky?
The Kyoto Protocol was submitted to the US Senate, they ratify US treaties by our constitution. It was voted down 99 against, 1 for ratification. Bill Clinton submitted it. The Presidents signature on a treaty means nothing the US Senate must vote to ratify any treaties.
Since David Cameron is a political and intellectual eunuch I do not anticipate the UK going down this road of common sense any time soon. :0(
walt man says:
May 29, 2011 at 11:40 am
“Some of the comments on this blog simple consider wealth. Where is the consideration for our grand children’s future. You are surely not leaving it to them to sort out our power mess and possibly our GW mess. Very sad”
==========
The mess being left to the grandchildren is not the threat of a warmer world,
it is the debt load of promises made by our elected officials.
Make no mistake, the debt load will kill more people than any temperature rise.
walt man says:
May 29, 2011 at 2:10 pm
Others have responded to this canard of the ‘sustainability’ crowd, the implication of which is that since we can’t raise everyone up to our standard of living, we should reduce ours to match the lowest common denominator. And what’s that? Mud huts and dung fires? Open sewers, cholera and typhoid, no vaccination? Or perhaps you’ll raise us to the high level of tiny, drab apartments, with daily queues for bread and a measure of spirits, as in the old Eastern Block countries only a few decades ago.
Of course we can raise everyone on Earth to our standards of living, given free markets, private property, individual liberty, and just legal and political systems (no petty tyrannies, brutal dictatorships, nor socialist bureaucracies need apply). As E. M. Smith is fond of pointing out (see his links above), there is and need be no shortage of anything, given human freedom, initiative, and brains.
The key to the future is progress, not regression, and progress means growth, not decline. Progress depends on energy, vast quantities of cheap energy, available to all. We have the means to provide it, if we are not to be hamstrung by Luddites and doomsayers, and the pusillanimous preachments of ‘sustainability’ mongers.
Oh, and by the way, there is plenty of oil, and plenty more to be uncovered. And if we do run out, never fear: we can make more, from coal, from algae, or good substitutes in ways yet undreamed of. Mankind is just beginning to discover its potential, which will be realized not just here on Earth, but in the vast reaches of the Solar System, the Milky Way Galaxy, and beyond. Think small, and bury your head in the sand if you wish. I prefer to look to the stars.
/Mr Lynn
“Latitude says:
May 29, 2011 at 10:31 am
Well, that just hung the UK, New Zealand, and Australia out to dry………..”
Yep,
Brownie point scoring for the UN for one.
Two main reasons why NZ jumped the gun with its ETS.
1. “Wanted to have its head held up high” when attending the Dopenhagen Climate Change Conference. To quote a NZ Govt minister
2. Also ‘fear’ of EU countries blocking and increasing tariffs on NZ exported goods there.
Since the USA isn’t onboard with Kyoto along with Japan, Russia and Canada now. Its time NZ stopped flag waving for Kyoto and scrapped the ETS aswell. Its put NZ at an economic disadvantage. Since our miniscule 0.2% CO2 emissions are just that on the World stage.
Clinton signed onto it in ’97 but the Senate voted 95-0 AGAINST ratifying it. Not a single vote in favor. It had nothing to do with Bush. And the fact that Obama, as “green” a president as we’ve ever had, won’t seriously consider joining a new Kyoto tells you all you need know about how big a waste of time it is.
I see there appear to be restaurants in Svalbard Norway that seem to be advertising polar bear steak on the menu….
Doesn’t help us in British Columbia. We are still paying a stealth “carbon” tax on fuels and the rate will be going up this summer. Meanwhile, Joe Public has his knickers in a twist over the HST, thanks to the local MSM and the hucksters who back them. I would love to see some media attention on how B.C.’s “neutral” (HA!) carbon tax which just might be worse for business than the HST. Instead, all I see are puff pieces promoting the predictive ability of another one of Weaver’s models.
Hey Crispy Clark – want to know how to deflect attention from the HST? Remove the 6% carbon tax I pay for a litre of gasoline. I can guarantee the people of B.C. will notice a difference, especially as we are sliding into a recession as the Canadian housing bubble deflates and releases a huge stink.
Sun Spot;
There’s a number of cherry blossom reconstructions I have links to, not certain which ones you are after:
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~rijs/pdfs/batten.pdf
http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/2008/09/09/another-message-from-kyoto/
this one has all the data that the main researcher has collected:
http://www.envi.osakafu-u.ac.jp/atmenv/aono/KyoPhenoTemp4.html
And I think this is the most comprehensive one as it includes the data from several previous studies:
https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/~wsoon/MiyaharaHiroko08-d/AonoKazui07-Aug23-KyotoSpring.pdf
and if I recall correctly because I haven’t the time to read it again, I think this is the one where they deduce the UHI in Tokyo rather accurately from the cherry blossom data:
http://www.envi.osakafu-u.ac.jp/atmenv/aono/Aono1998.pdf
Sun Spot;
There are other very interesting reconstructions out there. I’m not certain why tree rings which have been so thoroughly debunked still grab the headlines when there are so many other reconstructions out there from all over the world that pretty much show similar pictures. Here’s one from Quebec based on ice bridges correlated to severity of winter. They show 1850 to 1910 as unusualy cold, meaning that current temps are a recovery, not artificial warming:
http://www.mrn.gouv.qc.ca/publications/forets/connaissances/recherche/Houle-Daniel/Journal-climate-757-764.pdf
And here’s a favourite of mine that relies on historical references as well as grape harvest data. Carefully worded so as not to call the tree ring data “bull***t” directly, but close… and they conclude the MWP in Europe was 2 to 3 degrees warmer than the timeframe the study was done in (1980?)
http://www.wsu.hist.unibe.ch/downloads/variations.pdf
There’s also studies out there based on ice break up on lakes and rivers, planting dates of crops, etc. they all have problems in terms of what calendar was in use, what metric was used, etc, but after all that they tend to correlate.
I’ve always wondered if golf courses in Europe had their opening dates recorded by year. Would be interesting if they did being that they ought to go back a long ways, and golf courses would be partially shielded from UHI…unless the city grew around them I suppose…
Re: walt man and sustainability
The sort of argument presented by Walt Man reminds me of several earlier crises but especially the problem of all the horses in urban areas in the mid-to-late 1800s. The thing is that the solution(s) were already being implemented as people and authorities were certain the issue was unsolvable.
http://www.enviroliteracy.org/article.php/578.html
God Bless our Prime Minister. God Bless Canada.
To all you eco-fascist freaks who worship David Suzuki, a big raspberry!!
Jeremy,
I agree, God Bless Canada and Hosers. Wonderful people.
ATTN: TC in BC
Check your nat gas bill. The carbon sin tax is 22% of the commodity price for BC nat gas. I ask folks if they know the tax rate on nat gas , and all say they don’t know. They are quite suprised to learn it is 22% and it will increase to ca 30% on July 1, 2012.
They BC Climate Action Plan is the New Communist Manifesto. Under Phase 2 of the CAP, the BC govt will be regulating the emission of GHG’s from all sources, i.e the BC gov will indirectly seize control of means of production of all goods and services.
They are already redistributing wealth via carbon tax rebates and tax cuts to everyone except for the rich folks in the highest income tax bracket.
Notice how cold it was this spring? This is due inpart to the PDO shifting into a cool phase like it did in 1940. After a lag of 10 years, the climate got really cold after 1950 until the PDO shfted back into the warm phase in ca 1975.
It has been so cold I have yet to see a house fly here in Burnaby.
Mike Bromley says:
May 29, 2011 at 9:36 am
There’s that threatened polar bear again. Doing double duty in front of the Peace Tower in cold, cold Ottawa….
————————————-
This really has not much bearing on the article’s topic, but I think the building in the background of the picture is the town hall in Copenhagen ( the flag at the top of the tower is the danish one I think and the building looks very familar to me , an Copenhagen ex-resident ) , so it is probably taken when the Al Gore effect was in full force at the ( in retro ) Global Warming hype funeral that was meant to be somthing quite different by organisers.
As to the Kyoto proptocol , it was evident few months bach when Japan declared it did not want to play the kyototune anymore, that no amount of beating would make the dead horse stand up again, and the only viable ‘realpolitik’ is to admit openly.
As far as oil goes it is all about flow rates and the amount of energy now needed to develop and produce. The world’s oil stocks are depleting and demand is about to overwhelm supply. This will cause recessions and price volatility. There will be times when oil is cheaper than today, but only because demand has been hobbled by recession/depression.
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaNz3qS5WAo&w=560&h=349%5D
Walt Man asks: “I would love everyone’s standard of living to be brought up to USA. Do you think the world can sustain this level? If not then how do you propose to level out the inequality.”
Well let’s see some recent stats (from a liberal site) and do some math:
Estimated Global Wealth: 1.945 x 10^14 (USD)
Estimated no. of adults on Earth: 4.4 x 10^9
After Redistribution: $44,204.54 per adult.
So I ask – For how long could the world sustain all this equality?
How long would it take for the multi-set of cardinality 4.4 x 10^9 to become a well-ordered set of same size? – which would have a smallest and largest value?
(Definitions: Multisets may have elements repeated, whereas the elements in a set are unique.)
“Harold Pierce Jr says:
May 29, 2011 at 9:30 pm”
Strange the date for the increase is the same date the Gillard Govn’t claims the carbon tax will start here in Australia. I wonder if it is because by then there will be no doubt the world is in a cooling phase by then?
Great to read that reality is coming back into fashion!
Walt Man asks: “I would love everyone’s standard of living to be brought up to USA. Do you think the world can sustain this level? If not then how do you propose to level out the inequality.”
In fact the world could sustain that level. The higher standard of living comes coupled with a substantive drop in birth rate to the point that the world population would be in decline. Same wealth amongst fewer people = more wealth per person.
As for your second question, why is it the responsibility of the 1st world to redistribute wealth? The failure of the 3rd world to produce wealth is the fault of the third world, not ours. The answer is NOT what can we do to redistribute wealth. The answer is what can the third world do to create it. Some say that is a complicated question, but it isn’t.
All they need do is the same thing the western world did to get rich. Become free market democracies. It isn’t my fault that the 3rd world is rife with theocracies, military dictatorships, monarchies, corruption from top to bottom, tribal warfare, religious warfare, racial warfare, intense discrimination against minorities, women, suppresssion of free speech and I’m sick and tired of the notion that because they are poor, I should give them some of my money to even out the inequalities as if I has some responsibility to do so.
Jim Cripwell says:
May 29, 2011 at 12:07 pm
Second, I, for one, do not regard Bob Rae as a bad Premier. He was unfortunate to be in charge during a financial crisis. He applied all the standard socialist methods to solve the problem, and they did not work. So he applied all the capatilist ideas as to how to solve the problem, and they did work. In doing so, he succeeded in making himself unpopular with just about everyone. My late wife and I once played tennis against Bob and his wife; they were a delightful couple.
Jim.
Premier socialist Bob Ray Killed the Ontario economy and badly affected the Canadian economy as a result. Being a pleasant/delightful F****R that played tennis with you does not mean he’s a good guy he hurt and destroyed a lot of peoples finances and futures with his reckless socialist experiment. Stalin and Hitler were also charming but deadly 60 million dead people can attest to that. Bob Ray the UN loving warmist is still hanging around and a leopard never changes his spots, he is still lurking on the Canadian political scene to create more pain given the chance!!!
Slightly off topic, but Germany really is going blindly down the path of economic ruin. they just announced that they will be shutting down all nuclear plants by 2022 according to a couple of news feeds?
If true, they are nuts. they can’t commit to CO2 reductions and shut down their nuclear power at the same time….unless they are OK with freezing in the dark, planting crops by hand, getting food to market in wheel barrows…
Or did they invent teleporters and forget to tell the rest of us?
Here is an interesting article from Sunday’s Telegraph which I am sure you will be posting shortly. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/windpower/8545306/Wind-farms-Britain-is-running-out-of-wind.html
Hilarious as it is, it looks as if they are paving the way for the big climbdown regarding wind power. I like the reference to the Maunder Minimum but strange that they don’t make the conclusion that maybe the climate is cooling not warming.
Have no fear the Guardian has one of it’s ready prepared scripts flying off the press
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/may/29/carbon-emissions-nuclearpower
Oldjim pointed out 9 hours ago that France is NOT one of the countries opting out. Plese correct your headline, because WUWT is getting quoted at the Guardian and elsewhere, and it looks sloppy.
France is bound to obey EU rules on carbon targets, whatever its elected government may want to do. Only democracies like Russia can change their minds at will.
Three things:
1. South Africa is in the southern hemisphere, so it is winter there.
2. Bob Rae was the most incompetent premier of Ontario ever – no one has ever disputed that there, except for the looniest of the looney left.
3. Britain has officially decided to put its faith in wind farms, so unless sense prevails it can now look forward to a generation of brown outs and black outs. Germany has formally given up on nuclear power, so they can expect the same. Some countries, like the four mentioned here, are actually concerned about their economic future, but sadly that is not the case for either Britain or Germany. For these two countries, green hysteria and bad science have taken preference over economic reality.
@davidmhoffer
“Slightly off topic, but Germany really is going blindly down the path of economic ruin. they just announced that they will be shutting down all nuclear plants by 2022 according to a couple of news feeds?
If true, they are nuts. they can’t commit to CO2 reductions and shut down their nuclear power at the same time….unless they are OK with freezing in the dark, planting crops by hand, getting food to market in wheel barrows…”
We see through several glasses, darkly. Leaders of countries are in a bind – they want to take the most cost-effective decisions, but they don’t want to upset large Special Interest Groups like environmentalists. So they tend to make pronouncements which can be taken in several different ways depending on your political persuasion.
Then the media take those ambiguous pronouncements and put their own spin on their articles, using partial reporting where possible. They need to pander to their readers prejudices, and they don’t have to take any decisions at all, so they can be much more extreme.
It is quite possible for a politician to make a speech which would be hailed a victory for the right wing, left wing and centrists simultaneously. Really good politicians’ speech-writers can manage that quite often….
Oh no!, not again!! Doom, gloom, disaster!!!
Worst ever carbon emissions leave climate on the brink
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/may/29/carbon-emissions-nuclearpower#history-link-box
Well done Anthony,
it may not be the end, but it certainly the end of the beginning.
All that really remains to be known is “how long”, before we can say this is “over”.
The wheels of government turn very slowly (or to put it another way, it is like a dinosaur … kick it between the legs and years later the nerve impulse finally reaches the tiny brain and its says “owww”). I was a supporter of global warming in 2000, and I know how very very long it seemed for any kind of meaningful response given the “evidence”. Now, that the government machinery is in motion I don’t see it being stopped easily, it certainly won’t be months but how many years even decades to stop it?
well done to Anthony and others who put their time and credibility into ensuring this fraud was exposed. Well done to those politicians who have had the courage to acknowledge their mistakes. A suggestion to Anthony, if moderation is practised then keep this blog a sience blog in its true sense. If not true moderates will look elsewhere.
@Peter Miller: Yes, it’s currently winter in the southern hemisphere, but it won’t be in November.
davidmhoffer says:
May 29, 2011 at 8:34 pm
Golf courses close in the winter? Sheesh, just another good reason to move to Oz where they are open all year round!
Harold Pierce Jr says:
May 29, 2011 at 9:30 pm
Houses fly in Burnaby? Wow! That must be Global Warming causing that….
No. Learn how to do actual reporting. The United States did NOT sign the Kyoto Protocol. Al Gore, with no Constitutional authority, signed the Kyoto Protocol. The United States NEVER signed anything. And this is the best part – Al Gore couldn’t even abide by the accord he signed in his own personal life.
Kyoto was always an essentially European project, with the reluctant participation of Canada and Japan. Even if Asian and African countries signed on, they never had any reduction target, thus no effort needed on their part. With Canada and Japan out, the only countries with targets are European. This makes it a purely European project, which they are trying to ram through everybody’s throat using their moral perceived moral high ground. European history is known for their ideological tendencies, that often leads to disaster. Enough with all that.
pat says: May 29, 2011 at 10:38 am
This leaves NZ, Australia, and the UK as the last of the true believers of any consequence
CRAP
We are not true believers. We developed the sanitation system for the good of man (and woman)-kind. So as they can go about their daily business in towns, in comfort and necessarily not inflict faecal-borne disease on all and sundry in a civilised manner.
If we are forced to sell our crap in lieu of a defunct carbon and previously the welfare exchange because populous under-developing nations now decide that sh*t is a commodity instead of real development then we will not be happy at all.
And tyrants that have their succour from AusAid and World Aid music will begin to REALLY know that the enlightenment era leapt from the caves to establish a world of freedoms for the individual and not unique band or grand-stands with electricity for amplifiers and metal-stringed guitars.
‘…Human faeces (properly composted) should also be recognised as an economic commodity and not a waste product. The Chinese have known this for centuries, and only now are other nations catching up….’
source: http://www.source.irc.nl/page/53548
Shame they forgot about the industries mining and belching ‘carbon’ apparently to sustain their population and consort with tyrants in Africa, Pacific and Latin America.
Rio +20 and Agenda 21
http://www.source.irc.nl/page/63776
Harold Pierce Jr, TC in BC and all other British Colombians.
The only Political Party in BC to commit to getting rid of the carbon tax is the John Cummins and the BC Conservatives.
Check them out. http://bcconservative.ca/
Cheers
@ Walt man
“Where is the consideration for our grand children’s future.”
How can you recognise a willing idiot enviro-mentalist?
They are always wailing on about the poor grandchildren.
Give it a rest with the incessant wailing, it is getting to be very irksome.
****
walt man says:
May 29, 2011 at 3:59 pm
So I ask again – Can the world support this?
****
Of course it can. Just use electricity, gaseous fuels or even steam-power (which can burn anything) for vehicles. Petroleum would become a relative bit player.
Not by the Cuban model.
Latitude says:
May 29, 2011 at 10:31 am
Well, that just hung the UK, New Zealand, and Australia out to dry………..
——-
But see this: http://www.theage.com.au/national/emissions-surge-to-record-level-20110530-1fctm.html
“The alarming report came as the Gillard government prepared to embrace an ambitious new target to cut Australia’s emissions by as much as 80 per cent by 2050 as part of a deal on carbon pricing with the Greens and independent MPs.”
Just as potty as the UK politicians.
“… Could be that China’s for example, far exceeds that of the US in a few years. At the rate things are going at present, that of the US might be even lower than, say Brazil’s. Enjoy.” – Douglas
Douglas, Don’t believe the hype. Econmic growth does not translate directly into increased standard of living for the populace. I’ve lived and worked in both China and Brazil. In the field of contract labor they’re both known as low cost labor centers. It would take generations for the standards of living in China or Brazil to begin to compare to that of the USA especially Brazil.
Theo Goodwin says:
May 29, 2011 at 5:22 pm
Frank K. says:
May 29, 2011 at 4:44 pm
“* When someone you know starts blabbering about “the planet,” please ask them to be more specific and tell you which “planet” they are referring to… “the planet” is such an idiotic way to refer to “the Earth”!”
Everybody writing in English seems to have a nervous tic when it comes to naming Earth. The most prominent version of the nervous tic removes the capitalization. People write “the earth.” No one writes “the mars” or the “the jupiter.” Another form of the tic keeps the capitalization but adds a gratuituous ‘the’, as in “That planet is the Earth.” No one writes “That planet is the Uranus.”
My guess is that the nervous tic exists because we can refer to “the earth” beneath our feet, which means the ground we stand on. Blokes working with electrical wiring face another temptation because they are often tempted to “earth it,” meaning “ground it.”
=========================================================
Theo, it’s no tic. The English language is what it is.
“Synonyms
3. Earth, globe, world are terms applied to the planet on which we dwell. Earth is used especially in speaking of a condition of existence contrasted with that in heaven or hell: those who are yet on earth. Globe formerly emphasized merely the roundness of the earth: to circumnavigate the globe. It is now used more like world, with especial application to the inhabitants of the earth and their activities, interests, and concerns. In this sense, both globe and world are more inclusive than earth and are used more abstractly: the politics of the globe; the future of the world; One World.”
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/earth
“The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don’t just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.”
–James D. Nicoll
Is it any wonder that Russia is out?
http://nofrakkingconsensus.com/2011/05/16/the-ipcc-the-uk-and-climate-censorship/
re: “The US, the second-largest carbon emitter, signed the protocol in 1997 but in 2001 the then president, George W. Bush, said he would not put it to the Senate for ratification.” — from the article.
Awww… LET them “blame Bush.”
I’ve got a strong feeling that if they insist on hanging our lack of Kyoto ratification on Bush, then in time Bush will come down as the hero who stopped this BS in the US. Let them skip over Clinton in their fury to “get” Bush. It will come back to bite them big time.
David, the German announcement is meaningless. Eleven years from now is an eternity in politics, and that’s all this is, politics. It was made solely to keep the Green slime off the government’s back and to avoid as many costly losses in state elections as possible. It’s no more a statement of German future energy policy than claiming that a match factory is the new great home heating source.
“The US, the second-largest carbon emitter, signed the protocol in 1997 but…”
No, the U.S. did not sign the protocol…VP Al Gore did. Prior to a ratification by the Senate, under the U.S. Constitution the President has no authority to obligate the U.S. to such a document (even though he went around the world telling other governments that he did), and such a pre-signature is just an acceptance for review by the Senate. The Senate, on the other hand, has no authority to negotiate the terms…simply the sole power to accept or deny.
The attempt was made at least since 2003…but it was illegal for the Executive Branch to intercede in the independence of these organizations. To change this required the consent of Congress, and in particular Senator Christopher Dodd.
clype says: May 30, 2011 at 3:03 pm
“The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don’t just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.”
–James D. Nicoll
Great! And a cribhouse whore I shall be determined to remain, so as to broaden and sharpen my observations and contribute to the debate.
If the governments of the world ever manage to lower the carbon content in our atmosphere all life forms on the planet will become extinct with out a doubt, planet earth will become a dead moon.
Regards Dave.
Germany just announced that they will phase out all of their nuclear power by 2022. Germany will either announce that they will not join the second round of Kyoto, or they will sign it and completely ignore it. By eliminating their nuclear plants there is no way their CO2 production will not go up markedly over the next decade.
Fode Greenpeace. Darn typos, where do they come from!
—-
I blame George Bush.
I would love everyone’s standard of living to be brought up to USA. Do you think the world can sustain this level?
—
Easily. It could sustain twice the population at twice the level of prosperity without breaking a sweat.
Dear all,
First, there is no scoop in this G8 announcement ; Canada, Japan, Russia and the US against any renewal of Kyoto, this is what was said by same @ Cancum in December 2010
Second, Europe remains the only significant region in the world volunteering for CO2 emission control : again no scoop
Third, Germany’s withdrawal from nuclear power will delay any CO2 reduction in Europe, as coal, lignit and natural gas will relay the atom for base power, and any further development of wind and PV in Germany (which by the way will quickly face federal budget limitations, see current plans for reducing again PV feed in tarifs) will most probably fail reducing the CO2 bill. This may trigger a rift in the European front…
davidmhoffer says: May 29, 2011 at 10:15 pm
“All they need do is the same thing the western world did to get rich. Become free market democracies. It isn’t my fault that the 3rd world is rife ”
You and others totally miss my point. If the whole world had the same standard of living as the USA then resources would last a couple of decades even if magically vast reserves are discovered.
The western world can exist at this level only because others work for peanuts producing our goods and can never be alowed to consume as the west does.
The figures quoted way above are correct (within reason).
walt man;
The western world can exist at this level only because others work for peanuts producing our goods and can never be alowed to consume as the west does.>>>
Oh poppycock. Your position is predicated upon the notion that the amount of wealth in the world is finite. If that were true we’d all still be living in caves with no hope of anything better, ever. As for the notion that our standard of living is dependant upon slave labour, again, poppycock. The portion of western income that goes to 3rd world countries to make shoes and shirts is tiny in comparison to the portion that goes into goods and services within the 1st world itself. What the 3rd world doesn’t spend on weapons to kill each other with gets pocketed by corruption and tyrannical leaders. Put an end to that and suddenly the 3rd world peasant isn’t a peasant anymore. Over time they build their own wealth by investing in their own homes, starting small businesses which grow into big businesses. A few decades later you’ll get protests in the 1st world about these upstart foreigners who are buying up all “our” companies. Remember when Japan was poor? South Korea? Singapore? Now we whine when “their” multi-nationals buy “our” multi-nationals. Did North America become poorer because they became richer? Did western Europe grow poorer because dirt poor eastern Europe joined the free world? NO! Economies shifted, trading patterns changed, but over all – everyone got wealthier.
What we lose in cheap shoes we gain back tenfold in trade.
It’s funny how rather than taking advantage of video conferencing technology, these [hundreds of] leaders on global warming and reducing gas emissions choose to fly around the world several times a year to hold meetings to discuss how they can help the environment. I hope there’s good sightseeing in Durban, South Africa, so at least they’ll get something done.
Also, if Kyoto 1 wasn’t successful, what more drastic action will be necessary?