Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
I guess having electricity when you need it is sooooo last century … UK families will have to get used to “only using power when it was available”. That constant electricity at home was dangerous anyhow, the unending hum of the wires can drive a man so insane that the only way to cure him is to make him head of the National Grid …
UK persons … comments?
w.
[Update, for those who believe the above is a faked article, I had Green Sand send me a photo and another scan of the actual newspaper. ~ ctm]
….coming soon to an American state near you….
UK persons … comments?
______________________________________________________________
I’ve got nothing that could possibly get through moderation.
Looks like the UK inmates/inhabitants will be made into boat people by their political masters (for whom the power no doubt stays on).
Welcome to Great Britian-stan!
Those in power will not be satisfied until humanity has returned to serfdom.
In the UK our politicians have been away with the fairies for some time. Wind power is the mother of all scams, nuclear has to be bought from the French and coal is politically incorrect. Our latest energy policy didn’t even mention shale gas, which shows how up to date we are.
My guess is we need a blackout or 2 for everyone to see the folly of our politicians before we get on the right track, at the moment the tree huggers are in control.
What an opportunity for a boom in sales for small 1 to 10kw generators!!
I’m buying stock in Onan!!
(Cummins, NYSE: CMI, currently around $102)
I can’t imagine having spent so much in infrastructure to be artificially hobbled, and without power when I WANT it!! ….So I can’t image all of the U.K. to be of a similar mind. Everyone will want their own backup power when it’s really hot, or really cold and the lights go out.
Welcome to the 21st Century, a lot like the 19th Century.
These people are utterly, flabbergastingly, inane. They would rather people freeze to death than “harm” fragile Gaia.
Funny, places like Indonesia and much of the more remote 3rd world have always operated like this. This *used* to be what separated the more advanced economies from them.
Devolution, indeed.
How it works in those areas: those with political power, money, and connections have power all the time, usually by home generators. Which of course end up creating much more air pollution and cost far more than it would have been to have built centralized power plants to begin with.
Oh, and no one complains about that, of course, because no one except those with political power, money, and connections are allowed to have them and that’s always the group able to kill criticism in any culture.
Welcome to the new aristocracy – and the new serfdom of the average person.
That’s a novel approach to the issue!
It certainly shows the calibre of people in authority in the UK these days – free thinkers and problem solvers need not apply.
If that is how they want to play it then I will have to consider when I feel I have enough funds available to pay for the sporadic electricity supply. I will also be able to hold back my involuntary renewables obligation donation to the wind turbine gravy train.
The guy’s comments defy belief – I’m sure China and India will be rushing to adopt the same model !
Lunatics running the asylum.
Said lunatics is a “coalition” with a minor coalition partner political party. The very same party which has just come 6th (yes that’s sixth) in a regional election for a MP to replace the incumbent who was done for fiddling his expenses to a tune of £14k ($20k)
I’m afraid the UK is joined at the hip with the those nuthouses running our dear ex-colony down the Antipodean way as well as the Europeans who want nothing better than a new Western version of the USSR.
I wish we had the 2nd Amendment here.
Mr. Holliday said ” We keep thinking that we want it to be there and to provide power when we need it. It is going to be much smarter then that.”
Reminds me of that old saying your boss used to tell you.
” Work smarter, not harder.”
The amazing part is the politicians and civil service folks aren’t being tarred, feathered and ridden out on rails. A very artificial shortage.
It is people like this that are so out of touch with the real world that prove that alternative energy is a complete fallacy.
How are businesses expected to run? How are people to cook and keep warm in the worsening cold winters? When idiots like Holliday say so? I think not.
It is long overdue for serious discussions in power continuity and decisions need to be made quickly on the lines of role of Coal and Nuclear generators in the uk. It has been known for a long time that windfarms and solar are not the answer and if politicians and policy makers do not get this sorted out very quickly, then the ballot box will be filled with votes for parties that do provide the people with what is needed for modern day-to-day living.
So I guess the human race has just given up. The scramble for dry caves will begin soon. Get yours while you can.
People in 3rd world countries and many cities and towns in the Middle East have power only so many hours a day and that is not always at the same time or not at all some days. They can have pack up generators, but that’s usually not a long term fix.
They would kill to have reliable power. The UK is voluntarily going to degrade their own country to 3rd world status? That’s nuts!
How would you like to be on a limited power and on a night-time breathing apparatus due to lung insufficiency and have the power go off because the government is a bunch of stupid idiots with the brains of a cabbage.
You will not be upset, because you’d be dead.
As a British citizen I absolutely despair…. The lunatics have taken over the asylum… We are already the only country in the world that has set itself legally binding (and unachievable) carbon reduction targets that will squeeze out of the UK the last of its remaining manufacturing industry. All other countries – including our EU partners are rapidly backing away from similar targets.
We have a Government that is putting its faith in wind power even though the experience of the two recent winters in Britain is that periods of highest electricity demand and coldest weather are those when conditions are calm and wind generated power is practically zero. We already have a massive burden on our electric bills (currently £100 per household per year and rising) to pay for wind farms that we cannot rely upon and will not save the need to install a single megawatt of capacity of other power plants.
To think Britain used to be a major economy and a leading nation in the world…. now it is the leader in showing how to reduce a once great nation to a weak power. I hope all our friends in the US, Australia, Canada and elsewhere take note and do not follow our example!
This is, and has been for a long time, entirely predictable.
Our political class and our National Grid is completely insane. I say that honestly without hyperbole. They have absolutely no regard for trivial things such as facts. Those annoying things may not be a problem if you are running the ministry of silly walks. However, running the national energy infrastructure means everyone will suffer for their delusions.
Only this week, that [snip] Huhne was claiming that Britain’s energy is currently supplied by 7% renewables. That claim is neatly eviscerated here:
http://autonomousmind.wordpress.com/2011/03/04/guest-post-by-martin-brumby
and will be known to be flat out wrong by anyone else who has been carefully watching the bmireports data for the last couple of years.
We truly live in frightening times here in Blighty and unfortunately most of it is self-inflicted. Even the National Grid is allowed to get away with the delusion that between now and 2020 it is going to be able to reliably supply between 13 and 29 gigawatts of energy from wind. The 3000+ turbines already installed could barely supply 0.1% of the 60GW demand on the particular cold days this winter.
Oh, I forgot. Isn’t deconstructing the Industrialized World one of the goals of the environmentalists and the warmists? They’re actually doing it!
Thorium reactors are looking better by the day.
Obamacare spawned the Tea Party.
Just imagine the stir brought on by interruption of American Sitcoms!
The blood will flow in the streets.
Sorry about your leaders other-side-of-the-pondies.
They’re “looking more to communities and individuals to take power into their own hands.”
Sounds like a jolly good idea to me. Power to the people! Throw the bureaucrats out!
So the Brits would rather sit in the dark than build nuclear plants? You’re still a democracy over there, right? Some political party is going to get a rude surprise over that, and some other one is going to get a windfall.
We’ll be ok once the solar plants are up and running in Libya, Tunisia and the rest of the North African Mediterranean sea board and we have a cable plugged into Morocco. But what about energy security, don’t worry we will all be Europeans by then or Euromeds I think the new term is.
I think there will be a revolution before they act this plan. Thatcher was right about nuclear power.
I guess Mr Holliday will be looking for a new job pretty soon…
“As a society we all need to be clear about what we can and cannot afford”. Exactly. As in, can you really afford all those expensive, ugly, noisy, inefficient and near-useless bird-blenders some like to call “wind turbines”? Of course not, so out they go. Next, analyze how affordable carbon taxes are. Those are really just dead weight on any economy, so jettison those. Somehow, I don’t think that is what he meant, though.
“As a society we all need to be clear on what we can and cannot afford.” Gee, is that how they debated green energy programs ?
I’m a UK citizen.
I left, some say abandoned ship, almost a decade ago. I live in a country not too far away with 80% of its power generated by nuclear reactors. A country that has just ruled an existing wind farm in Brittany (dang, gave the location away !) was built illegally, a ruling that looks like it could ban all offshore and coastal monuments to human credulity. We have a few windfarms, of course, but they are really only there to shut the looney greens up.
Would the UK allow private enterprise to provide power for the grid? Even with the carbon tax, you could make a killing when no other power is available, if you could charge whatever the market would bear.
Well he did warn that ‘the government was looking to communities and individuals to take power into their own hands’
I think that this is just the right sort of action to follow – but rather like in Egypt. – And sharpish too.
Douglas
Americans have started to draw the line and resoundingly voted in a congress with there wherewithall and madate to bring sanity into the energy debate. Unfortunately the EPA has way too much independent power and its affiliated NGOs (Sierra Club, Greenpeace, etc) have too many lawyers at its beck and call and can litigate any power company into oblivion. Hopefully we can start rolling back their power and dismantle their bueracratic power base.
I know one congressman is attempting to reverse the banning of incandescent light bulbs. Now we need to get nukes back on the pipling by cutting through the ridiculous fear and demagogry that exitsts.
Wasn’t there a chap by the name of Cromwell that sorted out the last batch of tower-dwellers with similar aspirations to make the serfs get on with accepting their proper place in life? Anyone got his number so could ring him up for a sequel with even better special effects?
What is truly amazing is that he has actually said what many commentators like Christopher Booker have been saying for years that we are heading for rolling blackouts and brownouts because of the gap between new nuclear coming on stream and the old nuclear and coal being phased out. This is very much off-message and I wouldn’t be surprised if he wasn’t made to retract in the future. Blackouts can not possibly be any government’s policy, it would be electoral suicide. He may be playing a clever game to put his political masters on the spot. Don’t forget that the grid operators have been complaining recently about the difficulties of coping with wind’s variability and how it unbalances the grid.
I echo all the other comments about lunatics and the management of the UK asylum.
I cannot believe this will be allowed to happen. If it did, the political fall-out would be massive. No government that had this as a policy would survive.
As a Brit who makes his living selling services to the electricity & gas sector….
When you read this, you need to have an understanding of how the UK industry is structured, and how National Grid makes it’s money.
Grid’s one of the remaining regulated parts of our industry. It’s permitted profits are tied to the capital value of the network, and that is largely a function of the sheer length of cable involved. If the network doesn’t grow, Grid doesn’t grow – and the share price doesn’t increase. If the network has to grow fast, Grid looks like a growth stock, and since it funds most investment through borrowing, the share price does VERY nicely.
So, on a small island like Britain, what makes the network mileage increase?
Connecting windfarms. Ideally lots of them. You may not pass much actual energy over the wires, but the regulator will adjust your unit price to compensate for that.
So, Grid’s been talking up the amount of wind capacity it can tolerate for a few years. Even better, since it doesn’t carry the costs of back-up generation, it doesn’t have to address that.
If, rather than building lots of windfarms, we put multiple nuclear units on existing sites, Grid would only have to spend perhaps £4bn on upgrades, as opposed to £20bn or so – but would only get a return on that smaller sum.
But… but… but… this is the 21 st century…
where is my trip to the moon, where is my sub orbital flight to Australia… where is my flying car?
I never figured that I would need to know where electricity went.
VOTE UKIP
All the stories have been told
Of kings and days of old,
But there’s no England now.
All the wars that were won and lost
Somehow don’t seem to matter very much anymore.
All the lies we were told,
All the lies of the people running round,
They’re castles have burned.
Now I see change,
But inside we’re the same as we ever were.
Living on a thin line,
Tell me now, what are we supposed to do?
Living on a thin line,
Tell me now, what are we supposed to do?
Living on a thin line,
Living this way, each day is a dream.
What am I, what are we supposed to do?
Living on a thin line,
Tell me now, what are we supposed to do?
Now another century nearly gone,
What are we gonna leave for the young?
What we couldn’t do, what we wouldn’t do,
It’s a crime, but does it matter?
Does it matter much, does it matter much to you?
Does it ever really matter?
Yes, it really, really matters.
Living on a thin line,
Tell me now, what are we supposed to do?
Living on a thin line,
Tell me now, what are we supposed to do?
Now another leader says
Break their hearts and break some heads.
Is there nothing we can say or do?
Blame the future on the past,
Always lost in blood and guts.
And when they’re gone, it’s me and you.
Living on a thin line,
Tell me now, what are we supposed to do?
Living on a thin line,
Tell me now, what are we supposed to do?
Living on a thin line.
Imagine if the head of the Water Utility said they would only supply water occasionally.
Does this clown not realist that it is his job to keep the lights on.
40 Shades
Unfortunately, here in the UK, the eco-loonies are still firmly in control of the agenda.
The BBC unquestionably regurgitates the gospel according to the IPCC and our prime minister is ignorant enough to say “If you want to understand climate change, go and see Al Gore’s film, An Inconvenient Truth”.
Luckily, public opinion does seem to be slowly turning and European shale gas could well turn out to be a game-changer.
The UK is in deep, deep trouble, but I haven’t given up all hope just yet.
Shimon peres – “We must end oil”
I’m glad you posted on this Willis, as it empitomises the insanity at the heart of British politics. All three main parties are drunk on the Kool-aid of AGW alarmism. They seem to have a contest to see who can out do each other at coming up with the most imaginative ways to cripple the economy.
Once we switch over to ‘renewables’ (ie wind) there will have to be a complete change in the way we do business. Firms and their employees will have to be on standby until they get a paging signal from the grid – the wind is blowing!
Can you hear the noise as machinery hums back into life? The much touted High Speed train which has been sat idle for the last 5 days while a high pressure system downed most of the electricity, is ready to roll, cutting down the journey time from Birmhingham to London from 1hr 40 minutes to 1 hour 10 minutes.
It is 4 am in London and it is pitch black- the street lamps that used to line the roads in bygone days are long gone. There just wasn’t sufficient power available. But now – now lights are shining from a thousand windows as the electricity begins to flow like streams in a Spring thaw. If you are careful you can pick your way down Euston Road without tripping up a kerb stone.
Idle machines are hummimg back to life. The country has set up a 3 shift pattern that will role 24/7 as long as the wind blows – no business would risk wasting one second of power-time, as they call it. Some of the old folks remember how it used to be, with shops and factories closing at 5. Now you can go to the bank, have a haircut or get your groceries at 2am on a Sunday. In fact, to avoid confusion they did away with week days. There are just months and day numbers. There are still some people who can calculate what day of the week it is – or would have been – today. But they are considered troublemakers who hanker over the past.
How long the hustle and bustle will continue before the wind passes, and sends the country back to its slumber, nobody is sure. The Met office have got a new model. They say they can predict how long the wind will blow, but to date they have had little success, and nobody listens to them any more. We just toil until the end of power-time, then sit and wait. And wait.
This is all about forcing each household to have a personal carbon allowance. It is the rise of the shadow currency.
It should come as no surprise that this issue is borne of the looming energy gap in the UK between supply and consumption. It should also come as no suprise that our now Deputy Prime Minister denied there was going to be an energy gap and claimed all that was needed was a greener energy mix – and not nuclear.
http://autonomousmind.wordpress.com/2010/04/18/the-nick-clegg-lib-dem-approach-to-energy/
We also have to pay higher energy bills here because of the EU inspired Renewables Obligation, along with a number of other charges loaded into our bills. You can read about it here
http://autonomousmind.wordpress.com/2010/01/24/wind-farm-subsidies-cost-us-1bn-in-energy-bills/
As has been recognised above, the implications of what was reported are enormous. Yet this short piece was buried amongst other short pieces on an inside page of a so called quality newspaper. It should have been a headline on the front page. UK is sleepwalking to disaster, yet so few of the populace, including the intelligent members of the community, appear to take a blind bit of notice. “Whom God wishes to destroy, he first makes mad.” (Euripides)
Within a generation or so, the Unted Kingdom will have become part of the Islamic State of Europe, so getting our electricity supply to match those of so many present day Islamic states seems perfectly understandable.
We’re screwed. But I bet there’s someone in Obama’s administration eyeing this enviously. Where we lead today in the UK you’ll soon follow in the US…
During the early phase of the American running of Iraq many jounralist/talking heads grumbled about how the electricity was only operating part of the day. Little did we know that it was a good thing and Britain would decide to emulate Iraq.
I spent quite a bit of one moderatley cold December in Rome back around 1988 or 1989 when we had electricity 6 hours per day, and there was a rotating schedule for when you got your 6 hours. It was interesting, but not devastating. In a colder climate it would be much worse. Dickens anyone?
yes – All our polititcians believe in the green utopian energy fairy, one wave of her carbon wand will provide bountiful wind energy, whenever it is required..
That reminds me, just need to finish a blog post about a wind-turbine near me. 🙂
Mr Holliday is merely representing the logical outcome of the hand he’s been dealt. He can’t be complicit in this, right? IOW, if I were in charge “electricity distribution,” and my superiors told me “all distribution will be sourced via windfarms by 2030,” then my next statement would be “OK, but there won’t be enough electricity to go around.”
I do the same thing in business every day, when I’m in meetings consulting on database needs and solutions. Most of the time, I’m just there waiting to be told what to do. When I’m asked my opinion on something, I give it, and it’s summarily dismissed by the “dreamers” as a buzz-kill. So I let them pay me to build something I KNOW won’t meet their real longterm needs, but WILL do this one thing very well for a short period of time. So they have to pay me again, later.
Seems to me, Mr Holliday is doing the same thing: “I’m just the messenger. I’ve been told to make due with windfarms. This is the ramification.” All the while knowing it won’t affect him (his job will require 24/7 power; he’s one of the elites), and panders to the Greens. He’s playing it both ways, “my hands are tied.” I don’t think he personally cares either way.
The Era of the Power Chief, Steve Holliday, who says that the “Era of constand electricity at home is ending” is coming to an end. If he and his fellow government cult members really believe that people will put up with intermittent service they have a big surprise waiting for them when they no longer get government pay checks.
Yes, the people that need to the change in behavior are people like Steve Holliday and the rest of the National Grid organization. Time for a change in management to people and engineers who have the wherewithal to make the system work and keep on delivering power.
In addition, I do support independent power generation via any means that makes economic sense without subsidies, mostly because it makes sense to have independent distributed redundancy in a power grid. The big question is what technologies and the bigger question is having political policies that permit independent power generation and sale to the grid in a market based approach like they have in Alberta, Canada but prevent in British Columbia due to “green” politics. Yeah, that’s right, in a province which is mostly mountains we can’t put in our own power generation on our lands and sell it to the power grid but just next door in Alberta you can. Sigh.
We have similar problems with water here on the west coast of Florida. During times of water restrictions, which seems like always now-a-days, there are always those who use 10 to 100 times the amount of water that a normal household uses. And yes, you are correct, they are almost always either a county official or a wealthy resident who just didn’t care about the price or fines. Bottom line was they get what they want when they want while restricting the rest of us.
Further to the autonomousmind evisceration (Katabasis above) there’s a useful iPhone App referred to here: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100107083902.htm (“UK Grid Carbon Intensity”). It currently has the following data: Gas 33.4% / Coal 41.6% / Nuclear 16.4% / Wind 0.4% / Hydro 1.5%. OK, the percentages look wrong – but the position is clear: even if hydro is included (applicable only to Scotland) “renewables” are contributing only about 2% of our power supply.
What are refrigerators supposed to do, hold their breaths during times of no electricity?
Absolutely stupid. Many appliances, particularly those burning natural gas, require a small amount of electricity to ensure that solenoids, pilots etc. are proper functioning at all times. I also have to wonder about home health-care devices including oxygen generators, dialysis etc.
My sympathies to the Brits, I lived there in 1992-94 and feel your pain with you. Sheer lunacy.
Energy is power? The ability to control access to energy is power. The UK regime has knowingly embarked on a course of action which is guaranteed to enable the regime to control the energy matrix, rationing is power and the result of this rationing is more power over peoples lives. At a stroke we will become dependent on the state as supplicants, energy becomes the currency of political and social control, some groups will be favoured over other groups, some will prosper and receive more than others. State employees will have certain perks and benefits, the commissar class will also be treated better and have more than the ordinary person, you can already see where this is heading! Divide and rule, take certain things essential to a 1st world life and make them gifts of the states whims to be given or withdrawn as the state sees fit. The art of political and social control, the means of creating an authoritarian state.
In a future world you bathe when the state dictates and you use your appliances when the state says you can, you watch the TV when the state says you can, its all about who is the field hand and who is the boss man, who has the whip and who has the flayed back. The steady implacable progress to a totalitarian bully boy state, the regime believes that this is our future, a post democratic future, a modern future brave new world. Democracy degenerating before our eyes and we are unable or unwilling to wake up and smell the coffee. Little by little the state takes over and dictates the actions of the people for its own good you see. Little by little the rules and laws get pettier and the punishments get stronger, the regimes powers grow along side its arrogance and confidence as the power and confidence of the people ever weaker and as the people become to rely on the state more and more the state becomes ever more arrogant, dictatorial and bullying in nature and demeanour.
The regime takes over, the regime wants to take over, it dreams of taking over every aspect of your life. The regime believes that computer models of peoples average needs will allow the regime to supply those needs more efficiently. Person ‘A’ having a computed ration number that rises or fall according to how important or not the state thinks they are requires 1 pound of bread and 8oz of food product per day, electricity provided by modelled ration with access to other services rationed according to need or the states opinion of the individual need. Sound familiar does it, this brave new modern world where the efficient state provides and the grateful worker drone gives thanks every day for having a state that does so much and cares so much.
Think it cant happen? Think it wont happen? The road we are travelling on now is well used, the road is clearly marked and those who have travelled it before have left warning messages by the bucket load, neon signs as large as a football field and yet we are content to our journey down this road to hell, perhaps that is our recurring destiny?
They’ve been importing the barbaric laws and customs of Sharia so it makes sense for them to return to barbarism in other areas as well.
We have a similar culmination in former Eastern Germany. It produces 12 GW of power during peak production times, consumes about 4 GW itself, sends about 5 GW through the three interconnectors to the West, and has 3GW left over that do nothing but destabilize the grid, unless the grid operator can e-mail and fax enough wind turbine operators and convince them to voluntarily reduce production before the grid collapses.
Renewable energies in East Germany are expanded by 1GW/year; new interconnectors to the West do not get built due to protest initiatives; the Eastern neighbours (Poland, Czechia) do not want to destabilize their grid by importing German power surges. Rolling blackouts RSN i’d say.
(info according to Fritz Vahrenholt, head of RWE Innogy)
DocattheAutopsy says:
March 4, 2011 at 10:41 am
California, arrogant, misguided, smug. When the coasties get uncomfortable, they’ll start to whine again like in the 2000 power crisis. But this time, it will be too late. We’re in too steep of a dive. And we have Moonbeam back to finish the job he started in 1975. Now it’s California, the pyrite state.
Well, it hasn’t happened yet. In a sense, the sooner this crazy scenario unfolds, the better, if only in the sense that it will inject a shot of sorely-needed reality into the discussion, such as it is, here in the UK.
The AGW/Climate Change mantra has a secure hold on the political class (all three main parties), and I’d guess a good proportion of the educated middle class. Thank Auntie Beeb for this, ably assisted by the Royal Society, the Met Office, Prince Charles, Lord Porritt, George Monbiot – names familiar in this forum for reliably sticking to a hypothesis long after its supports have been knocked away.
All I can say, dear WUWT people, is ‘watch this space’ – I retain a fragile hope that we will see reason prevail.
(Where are the gung-ho investigative journalists in the British MSM? Booker and Delingpole can’t do it all, bless ’em).
Sorry, not a UK inmate, but I would venture a guess and say Mr. Holliday and his ilk will will always have power available. Shortages are only for the “little people”.
Yep, it is a bad joke, but it’s probably also true.
If you look at our energy consumption and production projections going into the future, we are going to have to wait for the wind to blow before we can make a cup of tea.
The old nuclear stations are practically finished and replacing them with wind was never going to cut it. They just cancelled the Severn barrage on the basis of cost. Wind Energy Subsidy anyone? That’ll be a billion pounds.
A year.
Which comes out of our pockets. At the expense of reliable electricity.
A bad joke, but true, too.
For what it’s worth, I can’t google up that article.
That said – IF TRUE then I urge the rational UK folks to… come to the US. Bring the Top Gear blokes with you. Really, we’ll figure out how to do decent tea…
“Mr Holliday was challenged over how the country would “keep the lights on” when it relied more on wind turbines as supplies of gas dwindled.”
Supplies of gas are dwindling? Ah well, I suppose these guys are rather conventional.
UK families will have to get used to “only using power when it was available”.
UK politicians be warned.
Pull My Finger says:
March 4, 2011 at 10:28 am
Welcome to the 21st Century, a lot like the 19th Century.
…..but in reverse.
We have third world railways, motorways (freeways to you guys), eductation and health service. Will we notice if another key part of our infrastructure goes into rapid decline?
We (even I helped whilst studying for my degree) built a first world power grid and generating infrastructure in the fifties & sixties – a good mix of nuclear, coal gas & a bit of hydro (no big mountains in the UK).
Our socialist government, which stayed in power for 13 years by copying Clinton, ignored things it found difficult – like sorting out Defence and building new generating capacity. We now have a situation where an incredibly high proportion of our generating capacity needs to be retired in a few years (3 they say – but no doubt it will be extended). It will apparently cost 100s of billions of pounds (if my poor old memory serves me right I have heard figures up to to £250Bn) to bring the generating capacity up to scratch.
Meanwhile Huhne (Minister in Charge of Greenery) is focused on windmills that delivered 0.04% of our supply in a cold and (unfortunately) calm December and whose electricity costs almost 100 times what it costs to deliver electricity by conventional means. The EU (plus the eco Fascists) insists we must not build any more coal powered power stations and they are even insistent that we switch off our old ones. Even though the UK has 300 years of coal reserves available.
Our MPs (embers of Parliament) are investigating the wondrous new gas from shale opportunity (which could give 1-15% of our energy supplies) with a view to throttling it at birth.
Idiots you quote above cannot have lived through our Miners strikes in the seventies. They cannot have travelled to India or Nigeria. All of which have an appalling electricity supply infrastructure.
You could say we have become detached from reality.
UK is an undeveloping country.
Gee, Nation Grid is my utility in Massachusetts.
They recently signed a contract to purchase 50% of the Cape Wind, offshore wind power, for 20.7 cents/kwh starting in 2013. Even better, there is a locked in 3.5% annual price increase for the duration of the 15 year contract. This more than 2x the current 8.1 c/kwh. They also charge a handsome 4.5c/kwh to deliver the juice.
Did they solicit customer input when they signed this terrible contract? Nope.
“Quick, lemmings…to the cliffs!” There are obviously too many of you.
If you get thirsty on the way, the Jonestown Population Reduction Institute recommends Kool- Aid. The green flavour satisfies the best.
I see my spelling reflects what I said about educashun – but it was really my TYPING!
It is being discussed on Bishop Hill here
http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2011/3/3/the-third-world-ambition-of-the-uk.html
The UK is a case study in economic self-destruction and the death of politics… I always expect to see Abandon hope all ye who enter here writ large in the arrival hall at Heathrow airport and Will the last person please remember to turn the lights off when they leave in the departure hall.
With myself a Yank and my wife a Brit (citizen in both) we see both banks of the pond on a daily basis as we watch families make their way inthese two similar but still very different countries. You Brits aought to be accustomed to waiting for what you need – just look at your health care. My father in law has been waiting almost two years now for a rather important operation – and it was just postponed again last week – indefinitely. Waiting a day or two for power – come on. Stiff upper lip and all that rot.
What a load of raving nutters in your government – oh, wait – people in glass houses……
Well, having no heat will make the wool comeback a lot easier to manage…
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/theroyalfamily/7069612/Prince-of-Wales-leading-wool-fashion-comeback.html
In second world countries the electric supply is intermittent. In third world countries you have the privilege eating when food is “available and available cheaply” If we labeled political-economic system according to results rather than intentions “socialism” would be called “shortagism” because that is what it produces, always and everywhere.
I suppose we have to give the British voters credit for being, as Mr. Holiday says “being much smarter” and, since poverty is a relative term, for fighting World poverty.
So when it’s not available in 10 years time with another bitterly cold winter with very little wind over the British Isles what then? Excess winter deaths will rocket and I suspect voters will vote politicians willing to promote coal, oil, gas and nuclear.
I’m afraid it’s probably correct.
We have a website http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/bsp_home.htm which summarises electrical demand versus where it comes from. This winter in the UK was the second colcest on record. I’m 61 years and can only remember a few as cold and with as much snow. Of course with cold comes electricity demand and on one day our electricity grid recorded the highest ever demand. But with cold weather comes still conditions and hardly any sun. So our stupid government’s hope – windmills and solar cells – contributed almost nothing that day. I did hear we were buying electricity from French nuclear plants via a cable under the English Channel.
My solution? We live in a rural area so it’s woodburners, coal fires, and we have two generators.
The UK gov is to build new gas fired power station in Derbyshire, the first of many.
Found this, any comments, annual daily mean from 1960 to 2006 increased in spring by 1.57 C, summer 1.7 C, autumn 1.21 C and in winter by 1.95 C,
Daily max over same period has risen by 1.77 C, daily min by 1.36 C.
This must be the only place on the planet where T min in an urban environment has risen less than T max.
http://www.wmpho.org.uk/resources/Health_Effects_of_Climate_Change_in_the_West_Midlands_Technical_Report.pdf
It almost happened this past winter then the wind failed to blow the wind turbines and the Scottish were forced to use French nuclear energy. Expect to see more stories like this in 20 to 30 years time. ;O)
Warmists, please read the following and realise that windpower is NOT the answer.
http://news.scotsman.com/news/39Green39-Scotland-relying-on-French.6672024.jp
So windmills can not provide baseload power supply – whoda thunk it?
Perhaps the clue lies in the senior UK cabinet post: Chris Huhne – Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change.
An oxymoron, or an Oxford moron?
At least the landowners (like our PM’s father-in-law) who profit from this evil will be readily identifiable when the blood does flow in the streets
When I read an article like this I despair of what this country has become!
We used to be the workshop of the world, now it looks as if we are becoming the workhouse of the world.
I don’t know how much longer this will go in without some form of tarring and feathering being meted out to some of our leaders, but mostly UK citizens are law abiding so i dont think that it will happen unfortunately.
I just checked the NETA site and the contribution of wind to the grid is 0.4%!
So much for bird slicers
More details are here. I would not put too much stock in the accuracy of the T.D. story.
National Grid chief says 2011 is ‘pivotal’ year for UK energy market
Power market reforms will determine whether the UK can meet its energy and emission targets, warns Steve Holliday
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/mar/01/national-grid-steve-holliday-energy-market
“Ending is better than mending….”
Brave New World – Aldous huxley
Throw away those nasty old coal and nuke plants! Join the Brave New World! The new solar cells and wind turbines will stimulate the economy and everything will be fine. Now, take your soma….. delicious soma.
Luckily for the US, the other 49 states are largely isolated from the stupidity of California. 🙂
All I can say is c*^$$+&**”! [snip, snip ,snip and snip again]
We, in Sweden, are now the 2nd in the European ‘list’ of paying most of net income for electricity, behind Bulgaria (this because B has a lower avg. income). Yet we DO have a production capacity of appr. 160 TWh/y (last year usage was app 132 TWh). Productions are ~ 48/48% hydro/nuclear, remaining ~ 2 % is partly imported, partly covered up by firing up reserve plants, all to cover up for a totally, really totally!, miss-management (incompetenced based) of the (deFacto non-existent) energy-policy in this country over the last ~ 20-25 years!
We live in a country that has ~ 4-5 months/y cold and dark – the last periods have really proved that fact! – and ~ 30% of the living area is electrically heated…! Prices are going up like moon rockets and our brain amputated minister of energy (about identical w the US ms Jackson/EPA) ‘recommends/advices’ people to insulate their houses more… God grief! Her name is, by the way, Maud Olofsson.
Still, Brgds from Sweden!
//TJ
There was a cable failure in central London in August 2003. The ensuing chaos even led to an enquiry:
http://legacy.london.gov.uk/assembly/reports/pubserv/powercut.pdf
“4.1 The power cut in London lasted for just over 30 minutes, yet the disruption that
followed lasted for the entire night. Members of the Committee witnessed the
chaos at first hand as they tried to travel home or to other engagements. The
question on our minds was how could this be happening in London after all the
reassurances given to Londoners post 9/11.”
“Recommendation 1
We recommend that Ofgem together with the DTI monitor and inspect the National
Grid’s programme of equipment review.”
Sure, make sure there is plenty of power transmission capacity assuming adequate generating capacity at the other end.
Joe P will not pay much attention to security of supply so long as the lights come on when the switch is flicked. The main issue is price.
Just wait the first day of power rationing by rota disconnection. The BBC and the Sun (tabloid) will gorge themselves on the latest tale of the blindingly obvious being mishandled by the incompetent.
And guess what will be at the top of the political agenda.
A new public enemy will be routinely whipped by the media. The bankers will gladly pass-on the baton and quietly collect their bonuses in peace and quiet (or should that be cold and dark).
All aboard the “Wind and Solar Express”, next stop: the Middle Ages. /sarc – ish
I used the phrase “barking mad” only the other day, in another comment – now you can all see what made us Brits invent the saying. And remember, this guy is not even government, just a company boss who does this sort of thing for the government.
Britain gets more electricity from France than from “green” sources.
See: http://appinsys.com/globalwarming/WindEnergy.htm#UK_Fail
One question: Do you have a link to the article in the Telegraph?
I can’t find the actual article online.
I was just looking for the tar and feathers but couldn’t find them because I have no light in the back.
Signs of things to come …
These eco-loonies should be locked up before they do any more damage.
You are correct. The difference between the Third World and the UK during this past December and January wast the terrible cold. The UK could not handle it as many more people would die from cold than mild, warm, Third World temps. As for the poor in Nepal and Mongolia it is something they have geared themselves for.;O)
Someone needs to invent a machine that turns otherwise useless biomass into physical work. It should probably have a nice, stable base so it doesn’t topple. Four legs seems about right. & it should have strong carrot & apple tropism built in so that reward/punishment feedback is simple to implement. Then all we need to do is build another machine to supervise & clean up the waste.
The optimistically uninformed here that blame the problem on greenies just don’t get it that the problem right now is the beginning of the great fossil fuel shortage. Yeah, the anti-nuke nuts don’t help, but even if they went away last year, nukes wouldn’t contribute in much less than a decade. Both oil and NG are going to be a problem in Europe, especially with uncertainties like Libya, and probable global cooling. The USA is not far behind.
This is a joke right? Thats why I cant find the article online.
“As a society, we all need to be clear about what we can and cannot afford” he (Steve Holliday – Chief Executive of National Grid) said.
May I suggest that we “as a society” cannot afford extremely highly paid “no can do” Chief Executives?
“We are going to change our own behaviour and consume it when it is available”
No Mr CE, because “as a society” we are not going to let you and or our government make your product “exclusive”.
Get your act together and have the guts to tell it as it is. That you can guarantee supply, cheaply, profitably and effectively provided the government allows you to do so.
To spell it out I respectfully suggest that you pee or get off the pot.
Pylons or underground are the least of your problems. Fuel availability and security of supply are and always must be your priority. You need to have a secure balanced mix of nuclear, coal, gas and renew etc. Please stop hiding behind these maniacal government ideologies and for once tell it as it is. You will be absolutely amazed at how much support you will get.
Either get a grip or move over, maybe now is not the time for a Holliday.
Reagan said it best. If they put the government in charge of the Sahara, there soon would be a shortage of sand.
If there is no shortage, governments create them to accumulate power, punish their enemies, reward their friends.
I have purchased a warm coat, a torch and some candles.
Dear AQ42’s MP
It is apparently reported in Wednesday’s Daily Telegraph that:
THE DAILY TELEGRAPH
WEDNESDAY, MARCH 2, 2011
Era of constant electricity at home is ending, says power chief
[snip]
The situation where a permanent electricity supply is withdrawn is wholly unacceptable; indeed I am old enough to remember how such a failure led directly to the fall of the Heath government. As a physics graduate I believe that there are plenty of ways to prevent this, and I would therefore urge you to oppose any such steps to the fullest extent.
Yours sincerely
AQ42
[who is, on a side note, now profoundly impressed by the OCR abilities built into Microsoft Onenote 2010]
Here is a European dimension (not that we want one, we just get it whether we like it or not!):
Germany Passes Energy Tyranny Act – Will Force Energy Rationing
NoTricksZone : P Gosselin’s Climate Science News And Free Commentary From Germany
http://notrickszone.com/2011/01/03/germany-passes-energy-tyranny-act-will-force-energy-rationing
“A new law has been passed by the German government, quietly and almost unnoticed. Soon in the future, the government will tell its citizens how much energy they can consume.
It’s “Germany’s first step in declaring eco-martial law.”
Expect a hockey stick graph for UK’s exess winter deaths in 10 to 20 years time.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=574
Ha! And so it begins…..
Cameron, Clegg, Huhne and the rest, look to the middle East – Mubarak, Ben-Ali, Gaddafi – Only the names are different! What’s happening there will be visited upon you. Your days in power are numbered, true democracy is beginning to flex its muscles. There is a growing disaffection, and it will not be stopped! The supine british population are beginning to rise up, and who knows when it will end? And our fellow westerners, over the pond, are beginning to rise up as well, as far as I can see.
Sorry to US readers – bit of a rant aimed at uk politicians, but it seems to fit both sides anyway.
But, you did ask for our input!!
M
As an inhabitant of Central England, I have felt this coming for some time. I have tried to rationalise it based on a project management course I attended many years ago.
Essentially, I was taught, PM was not about working out the goal of the project, but the aim of it. It turned out that there is a very good psychological difference between the two. And the way to figure out that difference was to ask a question: Why? To the 7th! Only then would one understand the real aim of the project (and, amazingly, it works).
I think that this is what is happening now in the UK. There is a ‘project’ going on – not just based on global warming – that the government wants to pursue. It is hard to realise their goal if we continue as we are: but if we ask ‘why?’, we will get closer to the truth.
Sorry Anthony, typos in above. corrected version follows
In second world countries the electric supply is intermittent. In third world countries you have the privilege eating when food is “available and available cheaply” If we labeled political-economic systems according to results rather than intentions “socialism” would be called “shortagism” because that is what it produces, always and everywhere.
I suppose we have to give the British voters credit for, as Mr. Holliday says “being much smarter” and, since poverty is a relative term, for fighting World poverty.
@ AleaJactaEst: * 😉
Well, I suppose the UK can always ask to be annexed by India (the US isn’t an option because we’re already owned by China).
Not sure India would want the burden of such a backward society, though…
Well, the difficulty isn’t confined to the U.K. In the Great State of Texas, where there is an abundance of fuels to provide stable and constant electricity, the residents were subjected to rolling black outs during one of the coldest blasts in recent history. Lives of many were risked in this effort to save humanity.
Whirly-gigs and pinwheels. Weird, I could have sworn that would work as viable replacement for fuels.
Lunatics running asylums.
Does anyone else think it is not the time to replace the old corrupt politicians? You either get some in to protect your rights or you go… darkly.
“Intermittent” electric service is just as well because customers won’t be able to afford continuous service anyway, once the capital cost of solar and wind is folded into their electric rate structure. The European experience with large-scale wind and solar now stands at: 3x current U.S average cost (at the power plant fence) for on-shore wind; 5x for off-shore wind and between 10x and 15x for photovoltaic solar.
Unlike the U.S., which has hid the true cost via “under the table” construction subsidies, the Europeans elected to pay the true cost “at the fence” in the form of electric rates required to justify the capital costs. Those rates run for the entire 15-20 year useful life of those plants, so forget the story that “it’s all free after the plants are paid off”.
Logic and reason are no longer employed by those who govern us, especially in the UK. Anybody with any sence would just compare France with Spain and immediately recognise France as the better example to follow. (nuclear power).
There has to be another reason why the obvious is ignored in favour of the rediculous. In my opinion, THAT reason is the “Precautionary Priciple” strong version. It is the only explanation which makes sense to me.
I don’t know if you have looked at the PP Willis, but somebody needs to give it some thought because it is enshrined in EU law and therefore, mandatory.
Murray Duffin says:
March 4, 2011 at 11:56 am
“The optimistically uninformed here that blame the problem on greenies just don’t get it that the problem right now is the beginning of the great fossil fuel shortage. ”
Are you talking about the current shale gas shortage? Or about the future methane clathrates shortage? Or the coal-to-liquid shortage? Come on, inform me about the shortage you’re talking about if you think i’m uninformed… give me a link…
I know it’s tempting to write us off – but remember what Chesterton said in the last verse of “The Secret People” :-
We’re a passive, unexcitable lot in the main – but when the lights start going out …… wait and see.
That should read, “ridiculous” oops
In the 18th and 19th centuries in Britain if people were unhappy then mobs would arm themselves with cudgels and roam the streets smashing things up. It didn’t help but the authorities took notice. In recent years it has been the ecoloons doing the smashing. Perhaps it is time for ordinary middle England (Britain?) to start smashing things up like energy companies, banks, train operating companies etc. To quote an Irishman (WB Yeats) (more or less)
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world
A terrible beauty is born
Since the UK govermnent at GCHQ monitors all emails, I now expect to be arrested at 3am this morning as a terrorist.
We still have room here in the colonies for clear thinking folk from the UK, that wouldn’t include Mr. Holliday though, something about completely barking mad comes to mind.
geo says: March 4, 2011 at 10:46 am
quote
Some political party is going to get a rude surprise over that, and some other one is going to get a windfall.
unquote
Can you imagine the election slogan?
VOTE FOR US — THE PARTY THAT BROUGHT YOU BLACKOUTS!
Maybe they’ll eventually think of it as being an electoral disadvantage, but I suppose there’s still the delusion that Green sells.
Barking, absolutely barking mad.
JF
I tried for a while to find out exactly what Holliday said, rather than just what The Telegraph turned it into. I wouldn’t comment without seeing it all. I couldn’t find it.
Anyone?
Further proof, if any were needed, that the political elite here (uk) couldn’t find their own arses with a map, satnav, two sherpas and a lemur.
It beggars belief. Pray tell- what will the hospitals do?
If this happens you’ll be seeing a middle-east esque coo occuring in good old blighty. Words fail me.
Also- hang on.
So in winter, when the freezing weather knackers all the wind turbines- i suppose we’re all just supposed too freeze to death right?
So when everyone has an electric car and no electricity, just exactly how does that work?
Perhaps, . . .
http://thelibrary.springfield.missouri.org/lochist/frisco/history/Images/presentation/handcar.jpg
This is a hoax. Can’t find the article and no link. Me thinks someone is duping you and having a good laugh.
I need to buy myself a house with a chimney
40 shades of green says:
March 4, 2011 at 11:00 am
Imagine if the head of the Water Utility said they would only supply water occasionally. >>>
Well, does the water utility run on electricity? Because then that would actually correlate…
Big problem for weather forecasters too. They get a ton of static as it is when they miss a forecast and ruin someone’s picnic. But now people will be jumping on line to see what time of day they will be able to watch TV. No wait…its even worse…they can’t jump on line to get a forecast for tomorrow’s TV schedule unless it is windy today. Well, they could listen to the radio because you can get those low power ones that don’t even need a battery…oh crap that won’t work either because the radio station can’t broadcast until it is windy. You could leave the radio on all the time I suppose and then jump up and write down the forecast when you hear it come on. No idea how the papers are going to work, with the delay imposed by printing time, delivery, and now burdened with intermittant work flow as well, their forecasts won’t likely get delivered until after the weather does. Usefull for hindcasting analysis I suppose.
I know! Town Criers! Need no electricity, no wind, no wires, they just wander around at random shouting out the weather so people will know when they can flush the toilet or watch TV over the next few days. Of course they’d need security, the opportunity for radicals to disrupt people’s lives by masquerading as Town Criers and delivering forged forecasts could be highly disruptive to society. And good luck in the courts trying to prove which ones were just wrong and which ones were deliberately wrong. Heck, convict them all and send them to jail.
The jail doors use electromagnets to keep them locked of course, so the inmates will have to be responsible for their own release dates.
I welcome this word from on high because this is precisely the sort of idiocy that makes it clear to all that the AGW bandwagon has lost its wheels and is careening down the hill, just moments away from the 500 foot (170m) cliff that will be its final end.
For what it’s worth, I can’t google up that article
You won’t find articles like that on Google. The founder funded Obama in his last election bid. Use Bing.
“Electricity provided by wind farms will increase six-fold by 2020 but critics complain they only generate on windy days. ”
OMG – who would have known? Mr. Holliday? You must be joking? It’s “Brazil” all over again.
I’m sure the UK government were well aware of the 16-19% figure that caused problems in Denmark, and I certainly had a long talk with the Scottish executive about the need for Pump storage for wind perhaps 5 years ago and at that point if anything they were more pessimistic about the intermittentsy of wind. Unfortunately I haven’t had any contact since then, but as far as I can tell the situation hasn’t changed. The politicians are driving the boat toward the weir, they don’t want to know what lies ahead with power outages. Like always the politicians have their head in the clouds and don’t want to face the reality of their stupid policieis. The first time this will be taken seriously by them is when the lights go out and the electorate vote them out.
John O’Farrell wrote a book entiltled “An Utterly Impartial History of Britain or 2000 years of Upper Class Idiots in Charge” but for reasons I can not recall the book ended in 1945; I quite enjoyed reading the book and the humour rang very true. I am of the opinion that he should write a sequell, possible starting at the time of the asumption of the last labour govenment and continuing through the current coalition.
Communist Romania style. Electricity was rationed for population for several hour per day.
If Tommies keep their mouths shut, they deserve it.
I don’t have heating on in my house it is too expensive to keep on I only put it on for a few hours in the evening if it very cold .I remember the three day week when Edward Heath was in power and taking on the miners I imagine we will go back to some system like that of rolling power cuts if we allow the green politicians to dictate where our energy comes from.
“As a society we all need to be clear about what we can and cannot afford.”
Can have a referendum on pseudo-intellectual Progressive eggheads?
d(^_^)b
http://libertyatstake.blogspot.com
“Because the Only Good Progressive is a Failed Progressive”
Way to go, U.K! What a way to eliminate all those pesky tourists. You’ll just have the youth adventure set who are willing to rough it cheaply, but this should keep the rich ‘uns who value comfort at a nice distance. Prepare to see tourist revenue plummet.
This prospect is coming soon to California. The push to get 20% of the electrical energy the state uses from wind and solar (mostly wind) by 2010 is still in trouble. Even though this reality exists the state is trying to pass new legislation to require that by 2020 33% of the states electrical energy will come from wind and solar. These initiatives have and will continue to raise the states electrical rates to higher levels making businesses here uncompetitive while further raising the states already out of control $26 billion budget deficit.
Because of the unpredictable intermittency of operation of wind and solar significant additional costs are incurred for back-up fossil generation in using these resources. For the 20% renewable goal fossil back-up generation required for electric system reliability amounts to about 4.5% of the total renewable portfolio. As the percentage of renewables climbs compared to the total required system generation the back-up requirements to maintain electric system reliability grow exponentially. Thus California’s 33% goal for renewables by 2020 requires that the back-up fossil generation need grows to 21% of the total renewable portfolio.
The inherent and unavoidable operational limitations of wind and solar make any politically driven scheme to try to establish an electric system dominated by these very expensive resources problematic at best and will always result in massively higher costs for electricity with significant detriments to system reliability.
These unattractive and detrimental cost and reliability realities for solar and wind are carefully concealed from the public by climate alarmists just as the huge shortcomings of climate fear science are concealed from the public – with the help of the biased and politically driven main stream media.
Jimbo says:
March 4, 2011 at 11:35 am
We french struggled a bit last December. Italy, Germany, Sth Spain and the pays bas plus the UK were all trying to take french power. On a couple of occasions we have shut off supplies to the countries already. With winters getting colder, and they are, we may have to cut off the UK. One should note that the continent can be and will be very much colder than the UK in future winters.
For those of you who are interested in dropping off the grid, if you have access to shale gas there is a neat little gas turbine power plant from Capstone. It uses electronics to commutate the generated voltage from the turbine shaft directly, no gear reduction. 30 KW for $2K/KW or $60K. It runs on wet gas, sour gas, light, or standard LP gas. If you have a group, they have turbines which can be grouped and load balance automatically. Needless to say, they are widely used on oil rigs for power generation.
Cloud Cuckoo Land, where the gentle wind stirs the windmills 365 days per year.
Our children will pay the price for their dreams.
One more cold winter and these problems will be highlighted. France are building 2 more Central Nucléaire but we will need them for our own usage.
Good luck UK you are going to need it. Perhaps the idiots will finally come to their senses and hang the politians from the lamp posts of London. Really, the education level of the masses in the UK is abysmal and that includes those from Eaton and Harrow.
I presume Mr Holliday has no intention of ever running getting into politics…. or maybe he is perfect for it and would fit in perfectly with the rest of the numptys.
Diesel gen here we come!
One feels that once the lights start going off the national lethargy that is allowing this to happen will vanish overnight. It is not just a case of domestic supplies but the whole fabric of life that will grind to a halt. I imagine whoever is in power at the time will be frantic as an angry populace seek vengeance. I shall be one of them looking forward to keeping warm as the Houses of PArliament burns down with the feckless ruling elites trapped inside.
I grew up in NZ after WWII with a wood-fired stove for cooking and generating hot water through a ‘wet back’ on the stove, wood-burning fireplaces throughout the house for warmth in winter, a big copper boiler with a fire under it in the laundry for the twice-weekly wash and a bloody great manual wringer to crush most of the water out of the laundry before it went out on the clothesline. No wives and mothers worked for pay, they slogged their guts out operating homes in almost medieval conditions. But in the background, our government was building hydro dams as hard as it could go to encourage industry. We were allowed the first ‘fridge in our neighbourhood as my dad was a returned serviceman and supply was limited. The world was hopeful, we worked and played hard, but after the Berlin wall was pushed over, people with strange ideas and stranger accents started taking over our communities. We were no strangers to socialism and had developed our own self-help, egalitarian variety, but these incomers and their odd ideas were hard to stop and most of us were working too hard to bother with them.
Decades later, the Marxist strain of Green socialism is infecting everything. Flash businesses own the railways, the telephone system, the electricity system and we are almost peasants in our own country. The mad pollies have brought in an ETS and are trying to justify it, but at least everything still works, so I am going home after almost a decade in the UK before I am too old to get started again. I was once proud of my British heritage, but the lot in control in the UK are barking mad and heading for the knackers yard. I spend half of my life here scratching my head and wondering where government common-sense went.
Back in the mid-seventies we endured the ‘Three Day Week’ here in the UK, a situation brought about by industrial action which was in turn a reaction to the wage restriction policies of the Conservative government. Electrical power was rationed in order to conserve coal stocks. See here:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Day_Week
I remember it well – going to work at the weekend, staying home at other times. There was a General Election in the midst of this period and the Conservatives, despite heaping blame on the coal miners and power workers, lost. There’s a lesson to be learnt here, don’t you think? No matter where the blame actually lies, the people will always hold the government of the day responsible. If the lights ever do start going out, whichever political party that happens to be in power at the time will not be in power for long – no matter who’s responsible. All political parties be warned!
No one cares what they write in there stupid papers, no one cares what they say in their stupid lectures.
The only fact that is guaranteed.
The government in charge when the lights go off will be toast.
The pigs understand that.
I am dumbfounded that people keep commenting on a FAKE ARTICLE. It is not real, no author, no record at the Telegraph NOTTA. Someone is having a good laugh, like moveon.org.
Bertram Felden says:
March 4, 2011 at 10:52 am
I’m a UK citizen.
I left, some say abandoned ship, almost a decade ago. I live in a country not too far away with 80% of its power generated by nuclear reactors. A country that has just ruled an existing wind farm in Brittany (dang, gave the location away !) was built illegally, a ruling that looks like it could ban all offshore and coastal monuments to human credulity. We have a few windfarms, of course, but they are really only there to shut the looney greens up.
I was in France a few years ago, my first trip to Europe. As we were driving from the Loire Valley to Paris, I saw wind turbines for miles, then a nuclear power plant. I took pictures of both since neither were a common sight in the US. We now have the NCAR experimental wind farm a few miles north of us, but not the miles of turbines throughout the countryside.
In the UK, the results of a by-election (caused by a crook of an MP being sent to prison) was announced today. It was in a solidly labour area, so the outcome was predictable. What was encouraging, however, was the the second placed candidate was from UKIP, the only UK party sceptical about AGW (and the EC, but that’s just another bonus).
They appear to be the only hope for the future in the UK, unless the other parties wake up to the fact that to achieve any level of prosperity then we need our manufacturing and service industries to operate more productively, and our consumers to carry on consuming. It ain’t gonna happen with all the lights out.
Hello tower, this is British Airways Flight 009 coming in from New York, starting our descent from 38,000 feet. Requesting runway clearance….
What? Say again? You are fading in and out…
You want me to climb back to 38,000 feet and circle in a holding pattern? For how long? What do you mean you have to check the weather forecast first?
Oh yeah, run way lights, totaly forgot, makes sense. OK, I’ll circle until the wind picks up or sunrise, which ever comes first. Fuel? Nah, I’m good, these dirigibles float in air you know, and we collect passenger poop for methane to run the propellor motors. You should see how much our efficiency has shot up since we went to all brown beans menus. We can wait. Took three weeks so far, whats an extra few hours?
I have a secret plan to defeat these nutters. Here in leafy Surrey I’m going to install an electric powered generator.
That’ll keep the greenies happy since no oil or gas will be needed. And I’ll have constant power!
I’ll use any power I don’t need to turn a fan to blow the local windmill. Win win!
I can’t see any problems yet………. 🙂
People are not that stupid. They know the gubment shut down economical electricity and built expensive un reliable. This means the gubment knows better when you you should do things than you do. Same with rail. In america, the gubment wants rail because they know better where you should go and when than you do.
Re : geo says:
March 4, 2011 at 10:46 am
“So the Brits would rather sit in the dark than build nuclear plants? You’re still a democracy over there, right? Some political party is going to get a rude surprise over that, and some other one is going to get a windfall.”
Unfortunately no – we’re not a democracy any more. All our policies are decided by our European masters in Brussels these days. The EU Lisbon Treaty was the final seal to that. Of the 500 million citizens in the EU only a handful got to vote directly on whether they wanted to be part of this EU superstate. Mostly it was the politicians who voted on whether they wanted to be part of the EU political gravy train. The only exception was Ireland where because of their Constitution the people had to be asked first – they voted NO – that should have been the end of the Lisbon Treaty but no, our EU masters dictated they should vote again until they got the right answer so that after a very heavily funded EU propaganda campaign they eventually voted Yes. Something they now bitterly regret – their economy is a shambles thanks to the economic straitjacket of the Eurozone where one size fits all.
In the UK the leaders of our three main parties are like three peas in a pod, Cameron, Clegg and Milliband, all had meteoric rises through party ranks to take up the reins and all pursue doggedly determined pro EU/UN policies and adhere to the creed of the UN IPCC. Cameron totally disregards traditional Conservative type policies to pursue a similar path to Blair (the true ‘Heir to Blair’ as he likes to describe himself! – and it was he who insisted on giving the outgoing Blair, who had taken this country to war on a lie, a standing ovation in parliament) So whichever party wins you can be sure the same policies will be followed.
In Scotland SNP First Minister is pushing the EU policies hard, ‘leading the world’ in a bid to force the Scottish economy to adopt 80% of its energy from renewables by 2020 – no doubt he is vying for his own place in the UN/EU (after all world governance is the aim as highlighted by EU president van Rompuy in his inauguration speech), sacrificing Scotland on the altar of his political ambition. He is determined to ruin the beautiful Scottish countryside by building as many windfarms as he can both on and offshore, determined that nuclear is NOT an option, he is keen to outdo EU targets on renewables.
So welcome to the world politics of the future. Just as Obama in the US and Gillard in Australia totally disregard the will of the people and lead their countries to economic suicide (with he help of a compliant media ) so the same is happening in the UK.
Our politicians no longer represent the people.
John says:
March 4, 2011 at 12:59 pm
I am dumbfounded that people keep commenting on a FAKE ARTICLE. It is not real, no author, no record at the Telegraph NOTTA. Someone is having a good laugh, like moveon.org.
————————————-
Its real, I have the paper infront of me, this is a typical “spin” technique used in the UK, slide it out page 14, not attributed. But have no doubt the man said it and he means it. He will not go against his masters policies.
subjects.
à la lanterne!
How the hell will we keep our food frozen? This will be a public health nightmare.
The bloke, Steve Holliday, should be sacked!
This may be of use:
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2011/02/17/minimalist-emergency-power/
The Guardian also covered the speech, but didn’t think this little tidbit was worth mentioning:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/mar/01/national-grid-steve-holliday-energy-market
Britain began to cease as a nation-state in the eighties. This process is now almost complete. We are a fracture country, all but under the complete control of the Federal European Union. As Scotland, Wales and Ireland break ever further from union with England, they each sacrifice their perceived independence to central control by the unelected, undemocratic “parliament” of the Euro Soviet. On world-wide issues the British Government does as the US Administration says. Internally, we do what the European Parliament and Courts dictate. The lights might as well go out. I propose that England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales each apply to become the 51st, 52nd, 53rd and 54th states of the USA, respectively. Any seconders?
Marion says:
So welcome to the world politics of the future. Just as Obama in the US and Gillard in Australia totally disregard the will of the people and lead their countries to economic suicide (with he help of a compliant media ) so the same is happening in the UK.
Our politicians no longer represent the people.
They might want to take a look at Egypt and Libya for how the end game of that tends to go… Or maybe that little thing with Hitler and Stalin… or even how things like that lead up to the French Revolution…
Anyone who thinks things are “different now” is a poor student of history…
Then again, Europe seems to like “making a lot of history”. Too bad most of it is wars…
I’d blame this one mostly on poor reporting (coupled with poor phrasing on Holliday’s part). If you listen to the original interview, its clearer that he is talking about the ability of a smart grid to use various demand-response strategies (equipment cycling, etc.) coupled with a time of use price signal to flatten out load variations. We’re quickly implementing something similar here in the U.S.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9410000/9410485.stm
Willis if you are going to quote you should quote accurately not follow the route of the ubiquitous spin doctors. Your head post says “only using power when it was available” this does NOT appear in the article which says “get used to using power when it was available”. This is not a semantic quibble but a different meaning. In your interpretation it implies times when power is simply not there, but the article is making the point that smarter grid systems will enable power consumption to be more closely related to power availability i.e. peak demand being adjusted to mesh with peak supply. To some extent this is done already in a rather crude way by load balancing usually through price mechanisms cheaper power is available at night when demand is low but spare capacity high.
There is enough crap about in this issue without artificailly creating more
Speaking of the Guardian, it’s got a dedicated T-Shirt here:
http://dailymash.shotdeadinthehead.com/product_view.aspx?pid=1573
A more likely scenario than blackouts would be different electricity prices depending on how the power is being produced at the moment. On a windy day electricity would be very cheap and on a calm day hugely expensive. The metering would be fully automatic and display the current tariff for the consumer to encourage saving energy. People would install 10 cubic meter insulated water tanks and accumulate heat for household needs at the best price. Appliances could be programmed to start preferentially at the lower tariff. Industrial users could get a set tariff for the next 3 days based on the weather forecast.
Of course it seems absurd now that unpredictable power, produced at great expense, should be subsidized by overpricing more reliable energy sources, but five years of this tariff model, and nobody would give it much thought anymore.
Snip snip snip snip snip oooooh that’s gotta hurt snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip snip Hanging is too snip good for these scum sucking, bottom dwelling, snip snip snip snip snips.
That’s my candid opinion.
I think as an example of their environmental credentials, that all politicians, the Palace of Westminster (House of Commons and Lords), and the politicians’ private houses and their family residences, plus those of members of Greenpeace and other AGW supporters by volunteering – should be linked to the grid by smart meters that stop any supply from the grid should windfarms fall below lets say 50% of their contracted capacity.
This way they will show that they are leading from the front and relying on renewables. They will be able to set an example to the rest of the population in the ways to cope with power outages.
Watch the rapid rise of the UK Independence party over the next 5 years. I predict the UK Establishment is in for a shock as the population finally wakes up and smells the coffee.
I’ve tried every way I can think of to track down this report and can’t find it anywhere. Since the source at Bishop Hill was Phillip Bratby I believe it existed — it wouldn’t be like Phillip to play this sort of practical joke and anyway we’ve seen the scan. A commenter on Richard Black’s blog quotes from it but without a link; two other sites link either to here or Bishop Hill.
It looks as if it was either in the print edition only or got pulled very early Wednesday morning, for whatever reason.
The last person leaving the UK won’t need to switch out the lights!
Presumably the smart meters will be smart enough to ensure that the Guardian readers doing safe, grossly over-paid “non-jobs”get electricity when they want it. It will be the rest of us who suffer the power cuts.
At present it is the phoney war…..no warming since 1998 and all manner of pathetic excuses but the move away from the AGW doctrine is gathering pace and when the political morons come to us for their vote reality will eventually return.
Our Government who until fairly recently would not consider a new generation of nuclear power plants eventually saw the light even if we still have to go through the public enquiry stage.
A few years ago Prof. Philip Stott implored the Government to install the new wave of nuclear power plants, he wanted the same type as France and Finland as we could pool our technolgy and that is exactly what will happen even if french companies like EDF have to do it for us.
The nonsense will contiue for a while but eventually sanity will return…later than hoped for but it will return.
Wait for a raft of “early retirements” in the areas of green science and green media “experts”.
Rocky road perhaps but change will come.
Storm in a teacup – this will never, ever be allowed to happen, the person quoted was either an idiot or misquoted. Given the source of the quote I’m not surprised.
And the Agenda to rid the world of “undesirables” continues apace. Time to man up. You have a choice. You can either be a victim or a victor. Choose.
This is just code for smart grid.
What they mean is that the smart grid will enable people to choose to not consume as much energy when generation output falls. You will choose to turn your aircon off for half an hour during peak load times to maintain the transmission grid integrity. In exchange, you won’t face punitive prices for consuming energy during a load/generation mismatch time.
I’ll agree it is badly phrased, but this is basically what the addled mind is trying to say.
I heard China, India, Russia, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Argentina, Brazil, Columbia, Iran, Egypt, Philippines, ………………………
…….were doing the same
/sarc
E.M.Smith says:
March 4, 2011 at 1:25 pm
Marion says:
So welcome to the world politics of the future. Just as Obama in the US and Gillard in Australia totally disregard the will of the people and lead their countries to economic suicide (with he help of a compliant media ) so the same is happening in the UK.
Our politicians no longer represent the people.
They might want to take a look at Egypt and Libya for how the end game of that tends to go… Or maybe that little thing with Hitler and Stalin… or even how things like that lead up to the French Revolution…
Anyone who thinks things are “different now” is a poor student of history…
Then again, Europe seems to like “making a lot of history”. Too bad most of it is wars…
Mussolini was very popular – and look how that turned out.
Although one or two people have commented about generators, no-one seems to have picked up the fact that there are advanced plans being developed to site banks of large diesel generators on various industrial sites in the UK, specifically to be fired up when BigWind power generation drops off.
It seems likely that these are ex MoD generators, and I doubt that they will be burning bio-diesel!
Due to the Grid’s pricing structure, anyone who can supply decent quantities of electricity to the grid at very short notice (when the grid is under great strain) will be able to clean up.
They anticipate only operating a couple of hundred hours per year, but it looks like being a licence to print money.
I’ve not seen a whisper about this plan in the media.
Funny, that, isn’t it?
Here in the UK we have a Coalition Government consisting of mainly multi millionaires from the Tory Party with little experience of power and Liberal Democrats who haven’t tasted power for almost a century and are drunk on it.
They are under the impression that they can radically change everything and it will be meekly accepted by the populace. Their come-uppance will surely come in the end but who knows how much havoc they will wreak in the meantime?
Sad news – not.
UN postpones crucial green fund meeting
Row over who should sit on transitional committee leads to delay of first Green Fund meeting
By BusinessGreen staff
04 Mar 2011
“Any hope the spirit of improved co-operation evident at last year’s Cancun climate change summit would continue through to this year’s negotiations appears to be receding, after the UN yesterday confirmed a crucial meeting to discuss the formation of a proposed “Green Climate Fund” has been delayed following a row over who should attend.”
http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/2031375/postpones-crucial-green-fund-meeting
So how will they address the problem of providing power to those institutions, businesses and people who need it whenever they need it, and not just “when it’s available”?
Hospitals, say, or (Britain going the way it is) mosques?
I’m sure those who can pay or who have a say will somehow magically be spared the artificial “shortage”. The rest will be told it’s good for their moral fiber to do without when the people in charge say they should.
Has anyone addressed what happens when supplies are intermittent and everyone’s laundry all needs to be done within the two-hour window designated for the day? It seems to me the overload would burn out the system.
Is there enough wood in the UK for this?
“03 June 2010
Rising electricity prices are increasing the use of wood for heating in South Eastern Europe to alarming levels, posing a serious threat to health and the environment, experts warned.”
http://www.euractiv.com/en/enlargement/impoverished-se-europeans-turn-wood-heating-news-494816
I have been haranguing my MP for some considerable time now about about the looming catastrophe in the UK that will be caused by a serious shortfall in generating capacity.
I have pointed out that his government is going to be responsible for a dramatic increase in the already shocking number of deaths from hypothermia among the elderly; on top of increasing numbers dying through fuel poverty there will be many freezing to death because of daily power cuts (all central heating systems require electricity to function) during the coldest parts of winter when the the wind turbines are stationary .
His response? I am being unduly pessimistic. Well, there’s none so blind as those that WON’T see – which includes virtually all UK MP’s.
The worst part of all this is that the professional electrical engineers association is busy pratting about things like power generation to deal with climate change. And is too lily livered to say in public what they are all saying between themselves.
Joe Public is well aware that there is a scam in progress but the political class is so thick (for our US cousins =dumb) that it is following the lead of Prince Chuckles.
Still there might be hope. In a very recent by election the Coalition candidates came behind UKIP so it might wake them up!
I notice people talking about backup generators. Cheap Regular just hit 3.72 and Diesel 4.15 at Sam’s club for members in 91733. Think you will be able to afford the gas for that backup generator if we don’t get rid of the MORONS in office NOW!!!
This is so outrageous, I wonder if it’s a spoof. And having the date and newspaper name conveniently placed over the article makes me think it could be. However, these following Bloomberg excerpts lend support to the Daily Telegraph article :
“The U.K. is ready to step up payments for factories, offices and supermarkets that switch off electricity as rising demand drives up prices and the nation turns to cleaner but less-reliable power.
The government, planning for a six-fold jump in wind capacity in the next decade, is seeking comment from power suppliers and consumers until March 10 on its so-called Electricity Market Reform. The unpredictable nature of wind generation, combined with rising electricity consumption, is likely to drive up U.K. power prices as plants that burn coal are phased out to help reduce pollution.
“Depending on Wind”
“Wind turbines generate only when the weather is favorable, making it difficult to predict electricity supplies. The power can’t be stored, and there’s no guaranteeing it will be sufficiently windy at time of peak consumption, forcing National Grid Plc to manage demand for electricity as well as supply.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/print/2011-03-02/u-k-ready-to-pay-power-users-to-switch-off-in-negawatt-plan.html
Re: Green Sand says: March 4, 2011 at 1:08 pm
“Its real, I have the paper infront of me”
Anyway to take a picture of the newspaper page and attach it here? I’d like to see the full or half page photo of the paper in a photograph quality photo.
Here is another little tidbit from Holliday:
“Holliday will predict that the UK will need to increase its installed capacity of electricity generation from 75GW today to 100GW by 2030, in order to meet the rapidly rising demand for electricity that will result from the move to reduce greenhouse gas emissions from transport and heating – switching vehicles from petrol to electric, and to use electricity for heating rather than gas.”
Electricity is already too expensive to heat your home with (it’s around 20p per KwHr compared to 5p per KwHr for gas). Can you imagine how expensive it will be for the average family by 2020 after all the threatened price hikes have been piled on? But from listening to Holliday I never heard cost mentioned once. But then again, to these government types, there is an endless pool of money to be extracted from the serf – I mean citizens.
So much for the future. This is called “Load Shedding” in Zimbabwe and has been practiced for over a decade. It is what you would expect from a bankrupt leftist third world dictatorship. Sounds like the UK will be in good company!
E.M.Smith says:
March 4, 2011 at 1:25 pm
They might want to take a look at Egypt and Libya for how the end game of that tends to go… Or maybe that little thing with Hitler and Stalin… or even how things like that lead up to the French Revolution…
When the Colonel closes the window on the drive through all hell will break loose.
Wow, talk about doubling down on stupid.
From The Engineer Magazine, another strong hint from his speech:-
“He also noted the importance of smart meters and other technology to manage the demand for electricity by remotely controlling appliances in people’s homes.
I wonder which people’s homes – Her Maj?….Govt Ministers?…….senior civil servants and quangocrats?…..captains of industry?……… No, they’ll all have to be provided with state-of-the -art standby generators with stepless auto changeover systems (fully accoustically insulated natch – can’t have joe public getting jealous).
Read more: http://www.theengineer.co.uk/policy-and-business/news/chief-executive-to-outline-uk-infrastructural-challenge/1007641.article#ixzz1FfkjAfQu
I image this will lead to an increase in people using personal gas and propane generators. I’m sure that’s much better for the environment!
The article accurately reports what Mr Holliday said at the end of the 3-minute BBC Today interview when he was asked “Does it work? ‘Cause when the wind doesn’t blow, how does your grid cope?” I can’t vouch for the quotes from his speech at the RAE. The interview is here, with a brief description:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9410000/9410485.stm
If you’re in the UK you can listen to the audio. Overseas users may need to use a proxy.
There are still a lot of really good power consuming class A hifi-amps produced in the UK. How are these industries going to survive without continous supply of power? The answer is blowing in the wind.
@Vince Causey: Sounds like a do-over of Central Maine Power. That was at the start of the cogen craze here in the states. They had a lot of electric heating up there, and the regulators forced them to buy power way above market (sound familiar?) from cogen facilities burning wood waste from paper and other milling operations. They eventually had to file bankruptcy since the regulators did not give them a way to make their money back and they needed to break the contracts somehow. But all this is sounding a bit close to home. National Grid bought the Boston area electric utility and of course is allowing Cape Wind to be put up and buying its input over the market. They are doing their worst here in the states too.
1) Ken Hall says ….The bloke, Steve Holliday, should be sacked!
Or perhaps he should be thanked for having the gonads to tell the truth which seems to be woefully lacking these days.
2) I am 63…was born in England and moved to Canada at age 8, in 1955…been back a few times. Last summer I met a British couple vacationing here … about my age. We chatted. It was so sad. Almost with tears in their eyes they told me how lucky I was and their main regret was not moving to Canada (or elsewhere) 30 years ago. But at their age and with their finances it was no longer impossible. It was so sad.
Good luck across the pond
Clive
LaRouchePAC LPAC Weekly Report 3 2 2011
MIN 28,30 SOLAR, WINDMILLS,NUCLEAR etc
If you think those comments are nuts, just check the mess the Germans ACTUALLY DID with their petrol:
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,14888490,00.html?maca=en-rss-en-all-1573-rdf
We all have 2 hemisheres in our brains, except for the Green-Socialist persons who only possess a right Hemisphere, with the left brain being completely absent.
I would suggest that these people use only their left hemisphere to make decisions !
And to think they could have all the power they need if they had a couple more nuclear plants going.
Kramer … I logged onto the Telegraph using their one-day free trial and got a print copy of the item and saved it as a PDF … here is the link on my server . .. dunno if that is good enough.
Clive
http://members.shaw.ca/ocl2/UKpower.pdf
is it april the 1st?
10 : 10 ?
The UK Energy Minister, Charles Hendry, wants to build a lot more wind turbines and has actually said, “that over time we will be able to reduce support for wind power and other renewable energy technologies as they become more economic”.
Of course Hendry’s not sure when wind power will be economically viable because UK governments, on behalf of the very generous UK taxpayer, have only spent over £2.2 billion subsidising wind power in the last eight years.
But we can be sure that it will take quite some time as the UK government has now pledged to reduce carbon emissions by 80% by 2050. Hendry’s going to have to build hundreds of thousands of bird munchers to meet that pledge. Which he intends to do at a cost to taxpayers of £30 billion a year by 2030.
But who is Charles Hendry?
Hendry is the MP who told the UK parliament that, “…although Scientology may be very controversial… undoubtedly, as human beings they do a great deal of good…certainly as an organisation it has gone through serious hoops in terms of making sure it has the right to broadcast on television, satisfying the broadcasting commission that it isn’t a cult.”
Ron would be proud.
Demand the use of vast reserve of shale gas
Welcome to Britain, the first country to industrialize and the first to slip back to Third World status. This is why I am retiring abroad; just hold off on the blackouts until I’m gone.
kramer says:
March 4, 2011 at 2:22 pm
Re: Green Sand says: March 4, 2011 at 1:08 pm
“Its real, I have the paper infront of me”
Anyway to take a picture of the newspaper page and attach it here? I’d like to see the full or half page photo of the paper in a photograph quality photo.
Well here we go, quite new to me so hope it works!
http://oi55.tinypic.com/29o4oea.jpg
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2u7t2ld&s=7
As vboring said… if this is a poorly phrased way to describe a voluntary program of energy usage reduction during peak load times to save money… then there really isn’t so much to worry about. We have the same thing here in northern Minnesota during winter, called “ripple”. When the coldest temperatures arrive (and it gets very cold here) and demand peaks, those on the ripple program have their electric heat reduced. We had this growing up because we had electric heat as well as a fireplace, so on the coldest mornings we’d build a fire and didn’t need the heaters (though a few of them would still work). Saved our family resort $$$thousands every year.
Just another symptom of left-wing delusionalism transformed into policy.
It is time for someone to go full-on Chesterton on these people and write a new version of his great, prescient book, “Eugenics and Its Evils.”
I suggest the title “Greenomics and Its Evils.”
Not a UK person…but…
SERIOUSLY?
Wow…the complete lack of common sense displayed by governments these days astounds me.
The EU runs Britain now. The European Parliament reviews new laws. They are elected on the party list system (you don’t vote for a person, you vote for a party and the party slots in the person they think should have the seat). The European Commission in Brussells makes the law. They are not elected. I think that’s called an “autocracy”. Where do I get a green card please?
Charlie says:
March 4, 2011 at 11:07 am
‘”Within a generation or so, the Unted Kingdom will have become part of the Islamic State of Europe, so getting our electricity supply to match those of so many present day Islamic states seems perfectly understandable”.
Right, just bring in the tents and the camels.
kramer says:
March 4, 2011 at 2:22 pm
Re: Green Sand says: March 4, 2011 at 1:08 pm
“Its real, I have the paper infront of me”
Anyway to take a picture of the newspaper page and attach it here? I’d like to see the full or half page photo of the paper in a photograph quality photo.
Sorry, cocked up second photo try again
http://i52.tinypic.com/2u7t2ld.jpg
I will be honest, I am in the UK, as I walk to my local pub on a night I glance up and admire how many lamp posts we have, if what that article describes became reality there would be a Civil Servant or Politician hanging from every one, fingers crossed.
Although I think not everyone still left over there is a complete energy fruitcake. See this story about approval for a new Gas generation plant in South Derbyshire.
http://www.cnplus.co.uk/sectors/energy/energy-minister-gives-1bn-gas-plant-the-green-light/8612166.article
No-one appears to have noticed that the Dutch Interconnector (wire to Holland) has been finished ahead of schedule (late 2011) and today provided 4.691GWh to the UK. Its capacity is 1GW and with the French Interconnector (2GW) can theoretically provide up to 72GWh/day to the UK grid (assuming the French and Dutch want to sell that much).
http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/Interconnectors/Netherlands/
As I type, wind in the UK is providing 154MW (from a nameplate capacity of ~5GW ie around 3.1%) and has provided 0.7% of UK electricity in the last 24 hours.
http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/bsp_home.htm
The UK seems determined to avoid generating its own electricity in an efficient manner. I have no doubt that Dutch and French power is more expensive that domestically generated nuclear electricity but the UK has now had two governments that have behaved like bunnies in the headlights when it comes to making electricity infrastructure decisions.
It will undoubtedly end in tears.
robertvdl says:
March 4, 2011 at 3:01 pm
LaRouchePAC LPAC Weekly Report 3 2 2011
Bunch of BS with all due respect.
Ask the Google and http://www.movements.org/ who is about the ‘spontaneous protests’, just to mention a few of the ‘activists’.
The protests have been staged from A to Z.
There is no food shortage, only to high food prizes thanks to the decline of the dollar, the bio fuel scam and high oil prices.
The protests have been triggered by the same scam artists that have pushed the climate change scam and plan for Global Governance.
What you see is an attempt to create the chaos to enable the First Global World Revolution and you better counter it.
Sitting at a table stating this is all ‘spontaneous’ tells me the guy’s at the table have no clue. http:/green-agenda.com
people will get used to eating when food is available…. umm, NOT. what a ridiculous comment, by the head of national grid.
the era of cheap gas is just beginning with the opening of shale gas in the US and potentially Europe. There will be vast tankers of LNG delivering gas to the coast of Scotland so that power is around when you want it. Sure it might be more expensive… but someone will pay for it.
oh and what about nukes?
Nigel Brereton says:
March 4, 2011 at 10:47 am
We’ll be ok once the solar plants are up and running in Libya, Tunisia and the rest of the North African Mediterranean sea board and we have a cable plugged into Morocco. But what about energy security, don’t worry we will all be Europeans by then or Euromeds I think the new term is.
==========================================================
More importantly, after the first few blackouts, you can follow Tunisa’s lead and go into the streets and get rid of the fools running the ship.
Egypt did it and Lybia is on the way.
I can’t find a reference to Steve Holiday’s quote on the Telegraph’s web site.
I have tried searching for the headline and also Steve Holiday and came up dry.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/?source=refresh
This is very puzzling. Was this an actual print news story that wasn’t included on the web site or is this a prank of some sort?
This is one of the few blogposts on WUWT where a link to the original has not been provided .
I did find a reference to a talk by Steve Holiday on the Guardian Web Site.
It did not contain that quote. He talked about how the UK electrical distribution system was obsolete needed to be upgraded, and that the demand for power will go up, as electric cars will replace gas powered cars. He also pointed out that a smart grid is needed to route the power to where it is needed, and that gas powered generators will be needed to deliver power when demand peaks and other sources can’t deliver.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/mar/01/national-grid-steve-holliday-energy-market
There is a report by the national grid agency which goes over the same ground.
http://www.parliament.uk/documents/post/postpn_372-future-electricity-networks.pdf
Are we being punked?
Interesting, though perhaps a deliberate attempt to ensure people take energy more seriously and support nukes.. Must admit small scale power generation linked to communities does sound great in terms of freedom from prices hikes etc. Plus of course people taking responsibility, though don’t think they will be either to happy with my plant food producing generator or a micro nuke!…
Bob(Sceptical Redcoat) says:
I propose that England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales each apply to become the 51st, 52nd, 53rd and 54th states of the USA, respectively. Any seconders?
Well, I’ll second it (if only as our beer might thereby be improved 😉
The only “issue”, I think, is that we have this clause about no kings and queens somewhere in our governing law. You would need to lose those particular state welfare recipients from England… I think all the other states would be easily able to join without much fanfare.
You might find the “commonwealth” structure that we’ve used with Philippines and currently with Puerto Rico more convenient, though, as it allows more leeway in what you do domesticaly, what your form of government can be, and easy ingress / egress (should the need arrise) while still granting such niceties as welfare and citizenship (sometimes, as desired…)
More inconvenient problems for Big Green Inc in the U.S.:
“BLYTHE, Calif. — Native Americans are clashing with the federal government over plans to fast-track approval and construction of massive solar energy projects that the Indians fear will harm sacred and culturally significant sites in Western deserts.
Recent lawsuits by two native groups pose a threat to half dozen proposed solar developments that the Obama administration has identified as a high priority in its quest for more clean energy production. One suit already has halted work on a major solar farm in Southern California.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/03/native-americans-sue-govt_n_829087.html
Will be fun watching this play out.
geo says:
March 4, 2011 at 10:46 am
So the Brits would rather sit in the dark than build nuclear plants?
O yes, in the dark AND the cold. We are sadly congenitally muddle-headed. For Britain’s liberal-left ruling elite, logic = fascism.
The “thinking” goes something like this: since nuclear power is so dangerous, we would rather die than have nuclear power stations.
Hospital managers will choose when to have electricity, as will airports, railway systems, etc. Britain will collectively qualify for a Darwin prize.
Larry Hamlin says:
March 4, 2011 at 12:40 pm
CEC tries to fool us.
California won’t be doing anything like what they advertise. It’s a bait and switch. I’m just not sure what they are switching to. It could be as simple as third world status, or it could be modeling for the nation how to pull off a Maoist revolution. Chairman Jerry and the new Cultural Revolution.
In reality, there is no chance we will get anywhere close to 33% renewable or even 20% renewable, without redefining what renewable is. The state legislature considered legislation delaying certain goals. We were supposed to be at 20% RPS by now. Where are we now? They claim 15% [1]. 30% is out of state. To deliver renewable energy from new projects, California will have to construct as many as 7 major power lines, costing roughly $5 to $20 billion [2].
Here is how the CEC puts the best spin on the plan [3]. Yeah, and I’ve got a big orange bridge to sell you.
Gas now, Thorium LFTRs [4] ASAP.
See:
1. http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/NR/rdonlyres/CFD76016-3E28-44B0-8427-3FAB1AA27FF4/0/FourthQuarter2010RPSReporttotheLegislature.pdf
2. http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/california-dreaming-achieving-33-rps-could-cost-12b-in-new-transmission/ Note: $12 B is an old figure.
3. http://www.energy.ca.gov/2009_energypolicy/documents/2009-06-29_workshop/presentations/04a_California_Public_Utilities_Commission_33_percent_RPS_Implementation_Analysis.pdf
4. http://energyfromthorium.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=64&Itemid=63
Larry Hamlin says:
March 4, 2011 at 12:40 pm
Oops, in my previous post I forgot to put space between his post reference and where I started to reply. I have not quoted anything he said.
John Brignell commented about it a few days ago on his March 2011 Numberwatch
Eloquent commentary on the overall situation in (the not-so-Great) Britain can be found at The Grumpy Old Sod and Richard North’s EU Referendum blog.
Frederick Davies says: If you think those comments are nuts, just check the mess the Germans ACTUALLY DID with their petrol:
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,14888490,00.html?maca=en-rss-en-all-1573-rdf
So they are selling E-10? That’s an issue? I’ve run “gasohol” and “E-10” and “Agrol” and all the other names it’s been called on and off since about 1970. No problem.
FWIW, a large number of stations in the USA sell E-10 and all there is is a tiny sticker on the pump saying “may contain up to 10% ethanol”. I generally seek it out as it has a lower tendency to ping in my high compression engines; besides, it smells a lot nicer when you are fueling the car 😉
For a long time it was 76 stations that had it most. Now it’s more widely around.
FWIW, I once ran a lawn mower on Methanol (MUCH more “corrosive” than any ethanol mix including 100% ethanol) for several years. Never did have a problem with it. (just turn the fuel mix screw out a little bit on the old Briggs and Stratton). Eventually replaced it with an electric mower ( I’ve now been through 3 or 4 of them and wish I’d kept the old gas / alcohol one..) after the starter pull thingy broke for the second time. Should have just fixed it again…
At any rate, per E-10: After running the stuff preferentially for about 40 years I have to say that I just don’t see much problem with it. Even in “fine German Autos” like my Mercedes SL with V-8 that just loves the stuff.
The above article quotes an interview he gave on BBC Radio 4. The clip that I have found on the BBC web site, doesn’t include anything constant electricity being a thing of the past.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9410000/9410485.stm
Wind-power generation on a cold day in Alberta
March 1, 2011 was a very cold day in Alberta
(Full Story, including graphs)
General question to the Greeners:
If we tax ourselves into the ground and can’t afford to heat our homes, run our cars, or use our computers, how are we going to “invest in the future”?
So postnormal. Next they’ll be claiming he used to work for Exxon with all that implies.
Arthur Dent says:
March 4, 2011 at 1:26 pm
I didn’t quote anyone. I posted a scan of a newspaper.
If you want to slice the salami that thin, sure. No matter how thin you slice it, however, it’s difficult to use power when it’s not available.
So your claim is that this all has nothing to do with the rolling blackouts that are impending for the UK? Or what? I don’t see the difference you’re pointing to. THE UK IS RUNNING OUT OF POWER. There’s two choices. Increase production, or “get used to using power when it was available”. I’d take the first one, and scream like hell about the second, but I’m not UKish, I’m a cowboy …
Your desire to quibble over the exact wording of the latter choice is rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. The problem is not the exact description of an unpleasant second choice. It is that you have failed to replace aging power plants. Now your masters want you to alter your habits (regardless of the wording you prefer) to cover their failure to maintain adequate production.
And you want to bust me? Bro’, I’m just the messenger, just the finger pointing at the moon. You’re running out of power … how about you discuss that instead of nitpicking about sematics and telling us about how to balance the load against the generation? I don’t care how smart your grid is, that can’t overcome human stupidity in betting on wind and solar. The grid can help, but it can’t generate a single watt. And it is the generation of those watts that is your problem.
w.
“Englanders” are not alone:
Borrowing from DirkH’s comment on P Gosselin’s NoTricksZone Blog:
Hmmm … well, as a former Brit whose family was kind enough to bring her with them when they emigrated to Canada half a century ago, all I can say is that perhaps Holliday is bound and determined to get a “head start” on the implementation of Pachauri’s “vision” for AR5.
[excerpt]
“Equity, Fairness, Sustainable Development and Life Style Changes: Problems of collective action, or public good problems that may overlap with various parallel challenges, can only be solved if the solution is considered to be fair and based on adequate equity principles. In general, the equity principle has to be applied to inter- and intra-generational justice as a prerequisite for sustainable development as well as lifestyle changes.”
(With sincere apologies to William Blake)
And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England’s mountains green?
And could they have ‘er foreseen
The blight of high satanic ‘mills
Whose darkness fills
England’s once green and pleasant land.
I can tell you what’s happening already from an Australian point of view.
The brightest and the best are coming to Australia in their droves. People from all sectors of the economy, financial, banking, tradesman. Heck, even many of our news presenters (on the ABC ofcourse) have pommy accents.
And the poor Irish, so many of their young are coming over to work in the mines, electricians, plumbers, brickies plasterers etc etc.
The only ones NOT coming over from the old dart are their immigrant/refugee populations. She may well end up being Englandistan.
This article is total bollux ……. We get all our electricity from France ….. Viva La EDF !!!
That is why it costs us so much.
Well we come to the divide;
either this:
“The time has come,” the Walrus said,
“To talk of many things:
Of shoes–and ships–and sealing-wax–
Of cabbages–and kings–
And why the sea is boiling hot–
And whether pigs have wings.”
or maybe this:
http://nunes.house.gov/_files/SummaryoftheEnergyRoadmap0.pdf
http://nunes.house.gov/_files/EnergyRoadmapTrifold_2011.pdf
Insanity or sanity. 2012 is coming; where you puttin’ yer money, bro?
The falacy of the “smart grid” is that folks don’t have “smart appliances” nor do they have “smart schedules”.
Most folks do the laundry when the clothes are dirty and they have time off work.
Most folks eat dinner at, well, dinnertime.
Most folks run the heater when it is cold outside and the A/C when it is hot outside.
Most folks take their shower in the morning before work, or on return home after work (depending on nature of trade and preference).
Very few folks do their laundry, shower, or eat dinner at 3 AM.
Very few folks avoid heat when it is most cold and A/C when it is most hot.
These simple facts seem to not be evident. Why escapes me at the moment…
BTW, we had something similar in California for a decade or so under governor Gray(out) Davis. He decided we ought to buy all our power on the “spot” market. The best description of this I’ve seen was from the commedian Dennis Miller who described it as “buying all your electricity at mini-bar prices”. The result was Enron who came into existence to “game” the broken system built by Grayout Davis and Loony Left friends.
The end game was “rolling blackouts” in California just about every time power demand was peaking. Several times a season, the power would just stop. (The local utilities were FORBIDDEN to own generation OR to enter long term reliable delivery contracts… yeah, that’s smart…)
I ended up with 2 generators ( A 1 kW Honda that I love for most of the time and a 4 kW Monster that I hated as it was way loud, but let me run A/C, washer, dryer, dishwasher, etc. all at the same time) along with sundry small UPS devices on all the things you didn’t want to take a power failure (clocks, video recorders, main light in the room). I also collected a few micro-inverters to give minimal power from the car, as desired.
A few years later we sacked the Governor (and got the “married to a Kennedy RINO Governator”…) and things returned to “power when you want it”.
Now, with the retreadding of Governor Jerry “Moonbeam” Brown; I’m regretting the sale of the 4 kW monster….
I really liked it a lot better when the Evil Utility Monopoly was in charge. Power was cheaper and more reliable then…
I suggest the Honda generator and the “minimal power” kit in the link above… I’ve “lived the dream” of government “controlled” electricity (or nightmare or…)
Bob(Sceptical Redcoat) says:
March 4, 2011 at 1:22 pm
“… I propose that England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales each apply to become the 51st, 52nd, 53rd and 54th states of the USA, respectively. Any seconders?”
That will still put us three shy of the 57 that our prez thinks we already have.
”The days of permanently available electricity may be coming to an end, the head of the power network said yesterday. […] We keep thinking that we want it to be there and to provide power when we need it. It is going to be much smarter than that. […] We are going to change our own behaviour and consume it when it is available”
Utterly outrageous. This Mr. Holliday should be fired immediately.
It was in 1959, I can vividly remember. I was five and sat on the firelog chest in a candle lit kitchen in the late afternoon, my Grandma at the fireplace, her face reflecting the flames from below. It was one of the frequent blackouts of the time, three years after the bloodbath of the revolution, inflicted by a ferocious Soviet army, the economy still in ruins. She was talking about the old days when she first met electricity. It was 1905, she was five and the town of Deva, Transylvania where she lived in her childhood just switched from gas lighting to electric streetlights “glowing like the light of Heavens”.
To get an idea how it must have felt, have a look at a painting of Csontváry Kosztka Tivadar, one of the greatest painters ever.
Elecric power plant in Jajce at night (Bosnia, 1902)
“Charles Higley says:
March 4, 2011 at 10:38 am
…
the government is a bunch of stupid idiots with the brains of a cabbage.
…”
Sir! you cast a slur upon the cabbages of the world. 🙂
Arthur Dent says:
March 4, 2011 at 1:26 pm
Arthur Dent? Not THE Arthur Dent! The one that Trillian gave the heave to the instant she could, and that Zaphod considered about as dumb as ever existed? The one who insisted on boiling leaves in water which nearly caused that genius computer to crash? Thanks, Arthur, but I think there’s a Vogon Constructor Fleet about to bore through your neighborhood. Remember to carry a towel! You’ll need it.
One of the euphemisms that one hears is “load management”.
Newspeak for rationing. Rationing as a result of a war on common sense.
The unending hum he was hearing wasn’t from wires. It was caused by his ungrounded brain.
Cutting carbon emissions by 80% let’s see…
Keeping the same power plants in place…
That could be like just under 5 hours of electricity a day.
Come on we can all do this if we try. You just gotta believe…
One hour of power at home in the morning…
One hour of power at home in the evening…
and 2hours and 48 minutes at work.
That would make a hefty 14 hour work week…
Yeah, that’s gonna work just fine… /sarc.
I can see a solution to this. Slow combustion syngas generators running on dried biomass producing H2 and CO to be fed to small four stroke generators. Cars have been run on wood chips with this system. The problems with continuous biomass feed can be solved by producing standardised pellets. These could be produced by a local cooperative and sold as garden mulch thus avoiding fuel taxes. It would only take a few thousand households to install such as system for the government to take notice,.
Given that the AGW hoax is about increased control and taxation, thousands setting an example by going off grid and escaping energy control and taxation would show the government the eventual futility of their CO2 legislation. In such an environment the only way to keep people from going off grid would be to provide continuous reliable grid power. That means coal, gas and nuclear power.
There is much to be learned from the failure of prohibition in America. Micro generation and bootleg power could be the start of the anti kleptocracy revolution. Syngas can even be converted to liquid fuels through the Fischer–Tropsch process. Bootleg petrol? There will be a man with a van doing the rounds. licence plate YAD 061…
In a nutshell
“I’m from the government I am NOT here to help”
Charles Higley says:
People in 3rd world countries and many cities and towns in the Middle East have power only so many hours a day…..
+++++++
Jimbo said:
As for the poor in Nepal and Mongolia it is something they have geared themselves for.
+++++++
The power is always on in Mongolia. Don’t know why, but it is. Many poor people struggle to heat their ‘gers’ with coal, not electricity though. The heat downtown is from the power station (Soviet style) raising the system efficiency of the antiquated design far above electric generation efficiency in the West. Many cold cities in Central Asia have these combined heat and power (CHP) systems.
New developments in domestic coal stoves (for gers/yurts) have reduced coal consumption per day by 50% and PM emissions by 99%, nuch cleaner than coal-fired power plants. It was not until recently that some foreign group forced a wind farm onto the population but fortunately it was paid for by the foreigners. The poor will of course eventually have to pay more to run their TV and light (singular) to feed the windmill owners.
Other than that things are getting better all the time.
Interesting.
Something is amiss with this story .Why can I not find the original link from the Telegraph and why is article only presented as a cut-n-pasty sort of thing.Maybe I am
not looking for the article correctly.Skeptical minds want to know.
Al Gored said:
“BLYTHE, Calif. — Native Americans are clashing with the federal government over plans to fast-track approval and construction of massive solar energy projects that the Indians fear will harm sacred and culturally significant sites in Western deserts.”
I doubt there is anything “sacred” about their opposition to wind farms. They just want to be paid off, big time, like with cassinos.
The ultimate guide to California’s cap-and-trade scheme
http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/feature/2027193/ultimate-guide-californias-cap-trade-scheme
UK persons … will change their leaders before they change their behaviour.
I suspect this guy was appointed by the Rt Hon Chris Huhne MP, Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change – MP in this case stands for MupPet.
I used to be proud of my British ancestry. Now it’s becoming a bit of an embarrassement.
onbe, I agree, this Telegraph “article” looks like a fake. I found nothing in the Telegraph data base that matched the title. The question in my mind now is can we trust posts here by Willis Eschenbach!?
By the way the Rt Hon Chris Huhne MP, Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change is a multimillionaire with no less than seven, SEVEN, homes. Footprint anyone?
Andy Dawson says:
March 4, 2011 at 10:57 am
“If, rather than building lots of windfarms, we put multiple nuclear units on existing sites, Grid would only have to spend perhaps £4bn on upgrades, as opposed to £20bn or so..”
For that money you could build a lot of these:
http://www.thamesweb.co.uk/windsor/thames/romneyhydro.html
@Murray Sandland Duffin
The optimistically uninformed here that blame the problem on greenies just don’t get it that the problem right now is the beginning of the great fossil fuel shortage.
Both oil and NG are going to be a problem in Europe
Electricity is not made from oil and only a small amount is made from gas. Most electricity in Europe is made from coal (bituminous and lignite), nuclear and hydro. No shortages in any of these. We have hundreds of years of coal resources in Europe alone. Besides oil and natural gas aren’t anywhere approaching a shortage either. Especially not natural gas, plentiful resources of which have been found in Europe a short while ago.
Hmmmm.
No electricity.
No lighting gas.
No whale oil for lamps.
Not nearly enough tallow for candles.
Stone Age, here we come.
That’s impressive… “smarter than that”… you know, only using energy when it’s blowing. So cook and eat a lot when it’s breezy, because next week you may starve!
My sympathies for those listed as low and middle class in the UK. I’m sure the likes of Prince Charlie is willing to sacrifice lives for his religion.
Hopefully, the people power currently in North Africa spreads to areas like Europe, North America and others with similar political climates.
alan
At this point I am going to have to say this article is bs.
They will make it a fight.
You will or you will not be.
This would actually be funny, in the context of theater of the absurd, if it wasn’t for the implications. From what I’ve read, Brits are “taxed for washing their cloths in hot water”.
I don’t want to say much more about “It” but WUWT? I guess its what you “get” from labor party “science” logic.
“UK persons … will change their leaders before they change their behaviour.”
How? The last election had two parties which were potentially electable, both run by EU-loving socialists who believe in ‘green power’.
Every significant party in the UK other than the unelectable UKIP and BNP has essentially the same policies, so nothing important can be changed by voting. This is one of the reasons why I emigrated a few years ago and why pretty much everyone I studied with at Oxford has also gone; Britain has been in an increasingly steep decline since the end of WWII and as far as I can see the situation is now pretty much terminal.
Even if you believe that the middle class are going to start rioting in the streets when the power cuts begin, by then they’ll be far too late to start a program of replacing the numerous power stations which are due to close over the next few years. Decades ago you could probably have found the engineering talent in the UK to keep those stations open until such a program completed, but now most of them are working abroad in countries that aren’t suicidal.
John from CA says:
March 4, 2011 at 7:37 pm
. . .
===
Lord,
I’ll bet they have to carry home wet cloths as well, imagine the Pounds for the dryer cycle.
You just can’t make this “stuff”up!!!
The UK already has special Grid customers that get CHEAP electricity because they agree to be load shed first if problems happen:
“On 27th May 2008 at 1134–1136 am, the GB transmission system suffered the loss of some 1600MW of power infeed from Longannet and Sizewell B within 2 minutes. The system frequency fell to 48.8Hz, its lowest level for twenty years, and Low Frequency Demand Disconnection relays correctly operated to trip some 900MW of demand to secure the system.”
The talk by Holliday was about smart grid as others have said (you need to check the facts if using daily mail or telegraph as your sources!!!).
i.e. get cheaper electricity to wash clothes/dishes but only when the grid allows during low demand (some machines already allow users to utilise cheaper off peak electricity) All that is being suggested is that this process is automated using smart grid – is this so bad?
alan says:
March 4, 2011 at 6:50 pm
onbe, I agree, this Telegraph “article” looks like a fake. I found nothing in the Telegraph data base that matched the title. The question in my mind now is can we trust posts here by Willis Eschenbach!?
What is supposedly a scan of the paper even looks suspicious to me. I am a resident of the US, so I have never seen a print version of the Telegraph, but the logo of the Telegraph is in Gothic lettering on their web site. The header of what is scanned is not in Gothic lettering . There is no reporter’s name attached to the article. The more I think about this, the more rotten it seems.
The falacy of the “smart grid” is that folks don’t have “smart appliances” nor do they have “smart schedules”.
Increasingly people do have smart appliances (quite cheap to add in these days of fancy electronics) and it is sheer laziness which prevents some (some) rescheduling.
In France the power is cheaper in the evening. Not late at night, just after most workplaces have shut and people have cooked their dinner. That’s because Nuclear might as well run all the time (whereas gas, hydro, coal etc are turned off when demand drops). Supply tends to outrun demand at night in France, as a result.
A lot of French choose to run their dishwasher late to save money. They put their washing machine on hold, and it runs at night. They hang it in the morning. Some even chose to not heat their houses on the peak cost days because they know that (a properly insulated) home can go a day without heating. Some heat water overnight to use during the day. Big savings can be made with small changes of routine. (Cooking dinner is not a big issue – the French mostly use gas, because they like to cook well.)
Now I’m picking that most people on this list are for free markets and free enterprise. In which case they should be for differential pricing according to supply and demand. However, many people go all cry-baby when free markets don’t suit them. They want socialised services – electricity at one price day and night. They whinge if lack of supply causes peak prices to be too expensive.
But the issue of differential pricing is completely unrelated to the issue of insufficient supply. Things should be more expensive when demand is high or you get distortions in the incentives of suppliers and users.
The UK should build more electricity generation for the future. It’s madness to think that lack of supply will somehow cause demand to drop. (The same madness that thinks not building roads will decrease the amount people want to drive.)
At the same time, people who are too stupid or willful to use modern appliances to take advantage of cheap supply should be punished in their pockets. If they chose not to buy “smart” appliances, it is not the fault of the electricity suppliers or the grid.
Jack Daniels and I are out on the porch looking at this here post and comments. We can’t make much sense of it. Seems Jack’s relatives watched folks do the same things back in the 1800’s and decide that it was just STOOPID. Some of ’em froze that winter, so we quit that shit and started drilling.
eadler, alan et al
Search “electricity” here:
http://dailytelegraph.newspaperdirect.com/screenprint/viewer.aspx
There it is on page 14 … log on for a one-day freebee and it is yours.
Here is the copy I “printed” to PDF. (Second post.)
http://members.shaw.ca/ocl2/UKpower.pdf
Clive
THIS ARTICLE IS FAKE.
It does not exist online. Doesn’t anyone check before posting these things?
The closest thing I could find is,
National Grid chief says 2011 is ‘pivotal’ year for UK energy market (The Guardian, UK, March 1, 2001)
alan says:
March 4, 2011 at 6:50 pm
onbe, I agree, this Telegraph “article” looks like a fake. I found nothing in the Telegraph data base that matched the title. The question in my mind now is can we trust posts here by Willis Eschenbach!?
==========
Trust?
I trust this post was made in good faith, because I am familiar with its author.
I did locate a print edition of an inside page on the web, and it does look similar to in format to what Eschenbach scanned and posted. The header of the paper doesn’t have Telegraph in gothic on the inside page, and the stories are not attributed to specific reporters.
I still haven’t found a reference to the quote on the web.
It was easy to find for you doubters. Go here:
http://dailytelegraph.newspaperdirect.com/screenprint/viewer.aspx
Type “electricity” in the search window. Page 14.
Here is a screen capture I got:
http://members.shaw.ca/ocl2/UKelectricity.jpg
Here is a PDF of same from their printing service.
http://members.shaw.ca/ocl2/UKpower.pdf
Willis Eschenbach: So your claim is that this all has nothing to do with the rolling blackouts that are impending for the UK? Or what? I don’t see the difference you’re pointing to. THE UK IS RUNNING OUT OF POWER.
I have a cunning scheme! We can build a power system of windmills tapping into that source of never ending rising thermals:
Rising hot air over Westminster & Holyrood , welsh assembly, etc.
And if that isn’t enough we shall just create a lot more assemblies & quangos to create a lot more hot air.
See!
That’s the British way. If you ever have a problem, form another assembly, give the people another group of useless airbags to vote for and problem solved!
Here in BC we’ll likely be in the same situation in the near future as the watermelons seem to be in charge. BC has huge hydroelectric power generation potential (all those mountains and gravitational potential energy), but the moonbat government has decided that no more dams will be built and we won’t have any nuclear power plants. Instead we will be using “renewable” power which means unreliable unsightly and noisy bird blenders (those Bald Eagles are eating far too many salmon) and “smart” power meters. The latter “innovation” is likely to drive me to install my own generator as I don’t like having an overly complex device controlling my house power nor do I want anyone to decide to limit how much current I can draw from the power grid.
In the 1950’s N. America and Europe had widely available very reliable electric supplies and it’s hard to believe that half a century later this excellent system would be dismantled for religious reasons. At least in the US there is a strong government tradition of separation of church and state so the watermelon lunatic cult is not likely to get very far.
From the standpoint of controlling medical costs, intermittent power has numerous benefits. Keeping a patient on a ventilator in an ICU is one of the highest costs/patient day in a hospital and loss of power for a few hours/day will free up all of those expensive ICU beds. Also, people on home oxygen from O2 concentrators are more likely to die when they’re without power as are people on home dialysis. All of this would add up to considerable savings for the British NHS.
The only positive aspect of this idiocy is that it will greatly decentralize electricity generation. I can afford to install my own generator running on natural gas but would prefer to not have yet another household machine to look after. Where I live has enough sun in the summer to produce my electrical needs if I covered my roof with solar panels and installed a large battery system to provide power at night; interesting from a technical point of view but I’d far prefer to buy my power from someone else. When that power supplier has undergone a bizarre religious conversion, then it’s time to take matters into one’s own hands.
To tea, or not to tea, that is the question.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_pickup
Why save a planet if we can’t have a celebratory cuppa?
Smart grids and appliances rule. 😉
Clive,
Thanks for posting the PDF. Much appreciated.
Re: , March 4, 2011 at 3:32 pm
Green Sand, thanks, that’s exactly what I was looking for. Unbelievable that they are really considering heading in that direction.
Clive
Thanks. I used electricity and nothing came up.Then I used Holliday and sure enough
there was the article.
“It does not exist online. Doesn’t anyone check before posting these things?”
Why do people think that if something isn’t online it doesn’t exist?
Anyone who knows much about Britain should have no difficulty believing that this kind of idiocy would happen there; if this was an article talking about building a hundred new nuclear plants, that would be an obvious fake, but two governments have now chosen to push ‘renewable’ power over new power plant construction which would probably cost a fraction of what they’re planning to spend on ‘renewable’.
Absent major changes, the lights will go out in a few years. Reality can’t be ignored forever.
“Now I’m picking that most people on this list are for free markets and free enterprise. In which case they should be for differential pricing according to supply and demand.”
Yeah, and we could introduce haggling in supermarkets; everyone could argue with the person at the till until they agree on a price for each item that they’re buying.
The reason why we don’t want ‘differential pricing according to supply and demand’ is the same reason why we don’t haggle over every item at the supermarket checkout: it’s insanely, absurdly, stupidly inefficient. No-one in their right mind wants to have to check the current price of electricity before they put the kettle on because it’s a colossal waste of time.
Having a few different fees at different times of day makes some kind of sense, because it doesn’t require much more effort on the part of the users (‘power costs less at night so I’ll put the dryer on before I go to bed’). But dynamic price changes so no-one can use power without haggling over the price every single time? Insane.
Jim Hodgen says: March 4, 2011 at 10:56 am
… a chap named Cromwell …
ABRIDGE, v.t. To shorten. When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for people to abridge their king, a decent respect for the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. – Oliver Cromwell
Mooloo:
‘If [people] chose not to buy “smart” appliances, it is not the fault of the electricity suppliers or the grid.’
People with limited funds and perfectly good “dumb” appliances should not be penalized because they can’t buy brand-new stuff at the drop of the word “green” by the likes of Al Gore.
For those that haven’t or can’t play the original recording of the interview on the Today programme the following is verbatim or very close:
The grid’s going to be a very different system in 2020 2030.
We keep thinking about we want it to be there and provide power when we need it.
It’s going to be a much smarter system then, were going to have to change our own behaviour and consume it when it’s available and available cheaply.
The telegraph report does put quotation marks around some paraphrasing which is a bit naughty or possibly just sloppy, but it largely the same statement.
Clive says: March 4, 2011 at 8:32 pm
Thank you for the links. Here are a few more:
BBC’s Radio 4:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9410000/9410
Where Holliday did indeed say what he has been quoted as saying… unfortunately, the clip ends right there, so additional context is unavailable…. however, the Royal Society of Engineers did record and post the entire speech and the QA afterwards here:
http://raeng.tv/default.aspx?item=47
I’ve not listened to it yet, but anyone who wants to discuss what he said and meant should probably listen first.
To all the doubters … First of all, perhaps it has not occurred to you that not all newspapers (least of all the U.K. Telegraph) put all their material online for all readers (at no cost).
This article did appear on page 14 of the March 2nd edition of the Telegraph e-paper – which suggests to me that it may well have been made available to paid-up digital subscribers only. If you scroll back through this thread to:
You’ll see how he succeeded in acquiring a pdf of the article which he indicated he has posted for your convenience at:
http://members.shaw.ca/ocl2/UKpower.pdf
Furthermore, Google can be your friend. That’s how I found:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9410000/9410485.stm
in which Holliday was speaking on BBC 4’s “Today” program (on March 1). Towards the end of the 2:45 interview (during which he had waxed euphorically over all the jobs that would be created), Holliday can be heard saying (exactly as quoted in the article):
“The grid is going to be a very different system in 2020, 2030. We keep thinking that we want it to be there and provide power when we need it. It is going to be much smarter than that.
“We are going to have to change our own behaviour and consume it when it’s available and available cheaply”.
You’re welcome – and your gracious apologies will now be accepted, I’m sure.
HOLLIDAY INTERVIEW WAS NOT FAKE !
The Telegraph article refers to an interview on March 1, 2011 on BBC 4 by Holliday.
See time stamp 0846 below that mentions the Holliday interview…
or follow the link….
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9410000/9410170.stm
Today Weekdays 6-9am and Saturdays 7-9am
BBC News Today
Radio 4 Home
The World at One PM
The World Tonight
Broadcasting House
BBC News
Page last updated at 07:43 GMT, Tuesday, 1 March 2011
Today: Tuesday 1st March
The Libyan leader, Colonel Gaddafi, has repeated his determination to cling onto power, declaring that his people love him. Also on the programme, new claims that paranormal activity is nothing more than our minds playing tricks.
To speed up the loading time for this running order, we have replaced the audio with links. To hear the reports, interviews and discussions, just click on the links.
Get in touch via email , Twitter or Facebook or text us on 84844.0615
0839
Business news with Adam Shaw.
0842
In the second of our series bringing ministers face-to-face with those affected by the cuts, our chief political correspondent Norman Smith took the Universities minister David Willetts to a sixth form college in East London to examine the impact of spending reductions on the aspirations of young people.
0846
The UK is about to embark on a huge process of change in the way it produces, transports and uses energy. Steve Holliday, chief executive of National Grid, explains how 2011 is the crucial decision point for investment decisions that will have huge long-term implications for the UK’s energy policies.
0850
Thousands of Libyan refugees have fled to Egypt, Tunisia and Niger during the recent unrest. Baroness Amos, head of the UN’s Office of the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs, outlines her call for Libya’s neighbouring countries to allow the passage of refugees across their borders.
Most information is available to you if you take the time to look for it… kbray.
WOW !!
I feel like an instant member of:
“The Willis Eschenbach Online Defense League”
Willis, you have automatically generated a loyal group of supporters who will gladly fight for you and defend you. It’s an intuitive thing from the heart. I love your work. kbray.
Personally I find it hard to believe that anyone could believe that this was faked. It’s exactly the kind of thing that the moralizing sustainability wizards spout all the time.
MarkG says:
March 4, 2011 at 9:18 pm
“…Yeah, and we could introduce haggling in supermarkets; everyone could argue with the person at the till until they agree on a price for each item that they’re buying…”
Why not? I got a good pair of pants and a shirt for an empty bottle of scotch in Columbo Sri Lanka.
It is not only the U.K. ….in Belgium a warning is issued for overconsumption and the trouble that gives to the old grid-system….
Same in Spain……..
The problem is that the whole grid is not made for such a grow in consumers and consumption…..
tie that together with wrong ( or none at all..) investements…and voila :
Hi Willis.
I always enjoyed your articles but have spent a frustrating hour trying to find the link to the story as many other readers have.
Thanks to Clive I have the link but finding it is still a real pain!
Clive says:
March 4, 2011 at 8:32 pm
It was easy to find for you doubters. Go here:
http://dailytelegraph.newspaperdirect.com/screenprint/viewer.aspx
Type “electricity” in the search window. Page 14.
Here is a screen capture I got:
http://members.shaw.ca/ocl2/UKelectricity.jpg
Here is a PDF of same from their printing service.
http://members.shaw.ca/ocl2/UKpower.pdf
In future please link the page or website to remove any doubts about authenticity, even with the above links I am still puzzled by no author or an alarm or outrage in the UK to this story?
It smacks of jackboot to the throat authoritarianism right out of George Oswell’s novel 1984. I swear if scared the hell out of me, then totally pissed me off, is there no limit to this green madness?
Thanks everyone for all the information.When I originally saw the article -I could not find anything on this. All I wanted was a source. With hoaxes it isn’t the outrageous ones that work- it is the believable ones. It isn’t just a lack of wind that shuts down wind power.High winds shut them down.Ice storms tear em up. And then according to the article the plan would be to use overhead cabling –LOL. Doesn’t sound like a smartgrid at all. Sounds more like a lot of needless pain and misery for many folks.
Actually, we do “haggle over every item at the supermarket”.
There are supermarkets here that I don’t go into on a bet–poor quality it the most common reason, high price a close second. I buy some items at one store, pthjer items at another. Some things I do without.
To the person who wished for the 2d Amendment: Our Constitution merely affirms our right to bear arms, and restrains gov’t from infringing upon it (albeit poorly). The right to self defense is a “natural or God-given right”, and we brought the concept with us from England.
There is still coal at Newcastle, is there not? And many other places, should one choose to look. Put some miners back to work, and ditch the current batch of [snip] and even if the sun sets, the lights must go on.
For a modest proposal, Irish babies have quite a bit of tallow, and potatoes can be distilled into a fine fuel, saving it for the electric cars that would otherwise drain power.
Yeah, they are running the ‘smart meters’ and ‘smart grids’ con here in Australia too. While there is nothing wrong with having a simple, tiered pricing structure that matches regular demand fluctuations (such as off peak rates at night, which are already in place, hence people have off-peak hot water tanks) – this is a whole new ballgame, which is designed to cover up inadequate supplies and rake in more cash.
It simultaneously covers up lack of planning for new infrastructure and clouds the issue of wasteful and inefficient ‘renewables’ being forced on us.
It will mean that power will cost more when we need it most, simple as that. I am yet to be convinced in what way this is a step forward for our quality of life. How does paying more for less improve the lot of the masses?
The AGW scam has a lot of sub-scams hanging off it, and this is one of them.
Jim Hodgen says:
Wasn’t there a chap by the name of Cromwell that sorted out the last batch of tower-dwellers with similar aspirations to make the serfs get on with accepting their proper place in life?
Personally, my vote goes to Guido Fawkes (the one from 1605). Come back, all is forgiven.
Ken Hall says:
March 4, 2011 at 1:10 pm
How the hell will we keep our food frozen? This will be a public health nightmare.
—–
The enviroGreens are dedicated to save the world, not humans.
It can’t be too much longer before the British are all wearing helicopter beanies with national pride. BTW how do you fly the Union Jack upside down to indicate distress?
Suggest that all contributors to this blog should access and read Richard Duncan’s “Peak Of Production of Conventional Oil and The Return To The Olduvai Gorge” as found at:
http://www.jayhanson.us/page224.pdf#search=%22richard%20duncan%20olduvai%20gorge%22
******************************
Maintain The Rage!
Add your voice to reason’s call.
Join the Tax Refusal.
******************************
http://www.TaxRefusal.com
******************************
And the related effort to wake the world:
STOP YOUR ENGINES !
http://www.StopYourEngines.com
******************************
Time and again when it comes to Britain I keep thinking of the scene in the sci-fi vampire movie Life Force when the (badly cast, phony-accented) American astronaut and his friend find that Britain’s central command has already been infected and they barely escape at the last second. Well, it’s fun to talk about broad-daylight vampirocracy, but the gone-but-not-forgotten Diplomad blog’s vision of UN and internationalist vulturocracy seems less way-out – but it doesn’t account for what sapped the prey of its life force in the first place. So maybe the word “vampirocracy” gets it right after all.
The Uk will not run out of power (unless gas supplies cease) The talk is about better use of power (more efficient use of power that could reduce the need for additional generators). Current growth of use is minimal.
It will run out of capacity if no replacement stations are built – do you REALLY think that this will be allowed to happen?!
To save the world we must all…. become Iraqis??
Why doesn’t England just invade itself and bomb the power plants? Will the higher ups still have year-round
powerelectricity?hro001,
When it shows up on their website I will believe it. Notice the critical part of the article is not a quote from him and none of the quotes from him say what it implied. If it is a real article then I would be too embarrassed to but something like that up on my webpage too since they do not have a real quote of him actually saying what they claim and BTW they conveniently don’t mention who wrote the “article”. I already found the interview and listened to it. He states nothing about electricity not being permanently available.
Oh and the JPG + PDF files are on someone’s personal webpage.
kbray in california ….
Nice work finding the link, amazing interview. “have to change our own behavior and consume it when it’s available and available cheaply.” So what does that mean? When the wind blows everyone can work, take a nap when it stops. This is just another of a long line of insults to every working man and woman in GB, as if they aren’t being sqeezed enough as it is. Heartless bastards, how can they look into that future and keep on with their plans? I guess it’s coming here to California and when it does, I’m leaving along with everyone else. At least I won’t have to turn the lights off when I go.
I feel for you Brits, I really do. What a great nation of amazing people. Cut your CO2 is that the idea? Well wait till you start buring everything in sight to stay warm. Maybe Dicken’s England is making a comeback; Frozen Thames, snow and soot.
UK is used for decline. After all, it was superpower some time ago and I can see abundant sign of decline around. I think this is going to happen to US as well. Maybe its time to leave Britain for some more developed country.
Re: The Daily Telegraph – Era of constant electricity at home is ending, say’s power chief
Here is the BBC interview:
BBC Today’s radio 4’s program: Listen to the National Grid chief, Steve Holliday interview it’s only 2min 45 second’s long.
Reading between the lines this might lead to depopulating the UK, in pursuit of this unworkable and insane green plan, the ultimate energy (poverty) deprivation plan. It might be the end game plan for the UK anyway, who really knows? Who could afford to live or work in such a big brother environment, what industry, manufacturing or a service base will be affordable or sustainable under such a system?
There is nothing in print, audio only, it is short and sweet and verbatim to the article. It sound innocent enough but the under current is bordering on scary for any country that pursues so called renewable’s or wind power, judging from Spain’s experience or Canada’s East coast wind farm that has quite due to icing on the blades, it will fail miserably.
God help the UK, there is literally dark days ahead, at least till some brilliant/affordable energy system is developed, or common sense percolates to the surface of the ruling classes pea sized brains or the voters really wake up, but that will take a long time and a lot of misery for the people!
2011 ‘crucial year for UK energy’
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9410000/9410485.stm
I believe lunatics can be forced to stand down their Parliamentary seat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunacy_%28Vacating_of_Seats%29_Act_1886
Poptech says:
March 4, 2011 at 8:19 pm
“THIS ARTICLE IS FAKE.
It does not exist online. Doesn’t anyone check before posting these things?
I guess you do not try hard enough Poptech. I personally comment under the article to say the UK was about to get in line with Nigeria with regard to crap power supplies.
1/10 for the simple effort of click the link!
I wrote a peer reviewed article on wave energy for E and E last year.
It seems to have escaped our leaders attention that Britain is an island constantly washed by the sea. Sea equals tides and waves equals unlimited energy. We were using the tides to power our mills a thousand years ago. No part of Britain is more than 70 miles from the sea.
We have the means but not the desire to become self sufficient in water renewables. My fuel bill has gone up 45% in three years, part of it a subsidy for wind turbines that don’t work when they are most needed.
Our petrol (gasoline) is approaching £7 per gallon (yes, you Americans read that right).
You may ask how a developed nation can remain competitive with such high fuel prices and how its population can afford to buy things to keep the economy growing when they have to spend so much on their energy?
The answer is of course that neither the state nor population is solvent when the ludicrous high price energy policies of the last 13 years of the labour government are pursued by people in a new govt who seem every bit as insane.
Tonyb
E.M.Smith says:
March 4, 2011 at 5:39 pm
Of course you liked it before the regime took control. The CEC is using non-market forces to make things move in the direction they desire. They got control of power supposedly to save us from the power companies. Who will protect us from government?
It is the real Amercian tradition NOT to trust government. Our freedom lies in independence. We choose to cooperate when it benefits us. It is a choice of free will, enlightened self-interest.
We do owe a debt to those who fought and died for our freedom, and some of us are called to repay these debts. Our flag does not symbolize our government. It actually represents us, the people, and the brave citizen-soldiers who made our way of life possible. No matter what government says, or what previous generations have given away, we have certain unalienable rights. We must defend them. The British people have them too. All people around the world are born with the same rights, not given to us by any government.
We protect ourselves from government. Neighbor helps neighbor. If you want a better life, get to know the people next door. Talk to each other about what’s wrong and what you can do to make things better. Some of you need to run for office, and always remember you represent your fellow citizens. I did, and I like to believe I’ve helped at least a little.
Oh, and it was on the free online edition!
You Brits need another Glorious Revolution. Or perhaps another Cromwell to lop the heads off of these wacko enviro kings who are ruining your power grid.
And we already had our experiment in Texas with forced outages during the February winter storm; I don’t think anybody here liked it. That’s an understatement!
Here’s what I think of UK politicians and the government of the day – [self snip] [self snip] [self snip] [self snip] [self snip] [self snip] [self snip]!
Further to the above, the minister responsible for the UK’s uber-green policies reportedly misled parliament by inflating the UK’s present renewable energy generation by a factor of 10: http://autonomousmind.wordpress.com/2011/03/04/guest-post-by-martin-brumby/
Now that you know about the problems facing the UK power grid lets have a look at the solution in the pipeline:
‘The world’s largest energy megaproject has begun. Desertec will spend the better part of a trillion dollars on solar energy plants in North Africa, the electricity from which will be transmitted via undersea cables to Europe. The notion that this project is an eco-fantasy is quickly felled by investigating the heavyweight European businesses involved in the Desertec Industrial Initiative. Broadening the investigation into other media and activist groups involved yields useful insights into environmentalism.
Investors are reluctant to place their capital into fixed structures on other people’s property for fear the property owner may impair or appropriate the investment. This applies to small investors and to nationally prominent consortia. Many regimes have expropriated foreign investments. The Suez Canal, dug with French money, was seized by the Egyptian government in 1956. Libya nationalized British-owned oil assets in 1972. Desertec proposes sinking $500 billion into fixed assets onto North African sand. What assurances do these investors have that governments will not seize these assets or that outlaws will not damage them?
Europe’s green electricity plan involves replacing electricity derived from coal and uranium with renewables and natural gas. Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria, and Libya have substantial gas reserves. This gas is already being shipped in immense volumes to Europe. Just as Desertec looks to North African solar power to meet Europe’s future electricity needs, a parallel collection of planned megaprojects looks to North African gas to meet Europe’s future gas needs.
Desertec does not involve merely sending electricity to Europe. Desertec is to supply the North African electricity market with solar power. Through Desertec, North Africa will become a captive market for Europe’s renewable energy companies.
The integration of the European and North African economies, required by Desertec and the natural gas hook-up, will collaterally make North Africans a captive market for European manufactured and agricultural goods. North Africa’s population is 175 million and growing. ‘
http://www.ecofascism.com/article22.html
James Sexton says:
March 4, 2011 at 12:03 pm
Well, the difficulty isn’t confined to the U.K. In the Great State of Texas, where there is an abundance of fuels to provide stable and constant electricity, the residents were subjected to rolling black outs during one of the coldest blasts in recent history. Lives of many were risked in this effort to save humanity.
====================================
True. I have relatives in Texas. I heard that they even closed schools because there was not any heat in them to keep the children warm. Texas!
Such insanity! Oh, and the so-called “rolling blackouts” that were supposed to last for less than an hour – they lasted for the full day.
Did I miss the part where he said that the Government needed to operate without electricity when they wanted it?
“Families” would have to get used to not having power. Government – not so much.
It is good to be King. Let them eat blackouts. May they live in darkness.
From Timesonline:
December 22, 2008
National Grid chief Steve Holliday: blackouts will be common in 7 years
Britain could face regular blackouts within seven years if the Government does not intervene in the energy market to ensure that more power stations are built, the head of National Grid says today.
….
Mr Holliday said that National Grid’s own analysis indicated that, under a business-as-usual scenario, Britain would fail to attract enough investment in new plants and would lack sufficient generating capacity to meet peak demand around 2015.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/utilities/article5380590.ece
Google is a friend for those with a curious mind. So he has been saying this for a couple of years…his responsibility seems to be shaking people awake from their slumber.
I first ran across the phrase “failure of nerve” in Bronoski’s Ascent of Man. He was worried you see. As were previous thinkers.
From:
http://reasonsociety.blogspot.com/2007_05_01_archive.html
In 1943 Sidney Hook applied classicist Gilbert Murray’s notion linking a failure of nerve to the decline of Hellenic civilization to a perceived ****irresponsible retreat to superstition at his own historical moment when the fate of democracy hung in the balance****. Isaac Asimov’s celebrated 1941 science fiction story “Nightfall” also expresses this fear. Paul Kurtz evinced a similar concern in the 1960s and ’70s, alarmed at a rising tide of *****irrationalism, including occultism, pseudoscience, and New Age thought*****. He was followed by the popularizers Jacob Bronowski and Carl Sagan.
————————–
I don’t know where the tipping point is, but somewhere bad things must happen to advanced cultures that fail to understand progress.
Desertec will make a moderate number of people very rich. As for electricity, not so much.
Frac gas is a far better bet. It’s even usable 24/7!
So Huhne said 7% will become 80%. But the real figures are 0.7% to 8%? Such a comedown!
Walt man;
Yes, the idiots have the bit in their teeth, and aren’t going to be deflected. It can indeed happen.
Brian H
Desertec will make a moderate number of people even richer. The rest of us are the source of their increased wealth.
I am British too and recall the power blackouts of the 70’s, due to striking workers. Fortunately we had open fires, with a “wet back” to heat water, a cool pantry and a gas fired fridge then. I can gaurantee any Govn’t which allows and approves of such energy policy will be short lived. To the current “leaders” in the UK, do I need to remind you of the “poll tax” riots? Are you paying attention to what is happening in Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq etc? Cold, unemployed and hungry people are angry people.
Sadly I see the same lunacy gearing up here in Australia.
Then again Desertec isn’t all about the money it’s about moving the power generation away from industrialised nations to develop nations and improve conditions for those living in poverty. It’s the green dream.
I commented on this yesterday!
Come on Willis please keep up.
We will soon be a third world country again here in the UK. Back to the MWP!
(Not sarc!)
Sam the Skeptic says:
March 4, 2011 at 1:37 pm
Sam, at Bishop Hill I linked to the Nat Grid where Holliday’s speech to the RAE is discussed and also to the Grauniad who discussed it.
@ Poptech
I will only believe you are for real when you show up on a website!
His presentation to the Royal Academy of Engineering was rather interesting.
The scale of the project is pretty impressive, put bluntly to provide a grid capable of supplying all of the UK energy needs given a commitment to an 80% reduction in carbon emissions is met, with a 50% increase in capacity, and about 15% increase in the population.
Now it is not the National Grid’s job to generate the power but it is its job to connect it, transmit it, and distribute it.
Some of it is straightforward as in upgrades to meet the requirements of a new generation of bigger nuclear plants on existing sites. Some less straightforward such as offshore wind generation for which he favours a submarine grid to avoid having point to point landing for individual farms. He would like to see an increase in the power capacity above that of the available submarine interconnects which are currently only rated at 1GWatt.
The intermittency problem does not quite seem how it sounds, and means different things at different timescales. The grid has always had an intermittency problem on the demand side, the introduction of more than a certain propostion of wind powered generation would produce supply-side issues which would be covered by gas powered generation and short periods of smart appliance management of a duration measured in minutes.
The big brutes in the mix are the energy distribution required to charge electric vehicles, and enlarging the proportion of all heating demands. At this stage it seems that supply would be susceptable to short term intermittency both for these services and some smart appliances that have built in latency and so can stand being off for a few minutes such as freezers etc.
Now comes the point of interest here.
He states that the plans to meet the 80% target require a compact between the suppliers and the grid, the government, and the consumer to rethink how electricity demand is distributed throughout the day. Basically put, once road transportation is largely electric the potential demand, that is every appliance, heating, lighting and every vehicle being on charge simultaneously would not be catered for, so some sort of demand management would be required. At no point did he indicate that meeting the total requirement was in doubt.
Other interesting points were the possibility of building a much bigger DC network interconnect with Europe, partly to shed windpower which at peak would exceed UK demand, I think that means after nuclear baseload is subtracted, and that he had no intention of joining a Europe wide synchronous super grid. Synchronous super grids being not for the faint-hearted, particularly if some of the partners are less reliable than others, due to fault propagation. He emphasised the prospect that financing all this investment both in the grid and in the generating capacity on the capital markets was being made substantial cheaper by the UK Government’s commitment. He indicated that the new smart meters are still some time down the road and that the technology would be trialed elsewhere. Finally he said that this was only one scenario, but it was one that met the 80% target but the take up of electric transportion was not certain.
Well it was interesting and certainly a brave new world, for which he appealled to the government and the eductional bodies to provide the engineers needed to build it.
Tee Hee!
Attention politicians of all flavours!
When we`re out of power,
you follow, get it?
Fire his ass.
There are some people here expressing doubts that this could possibly be the – completely insane and at odds with reality – position of the National Grid and/or that there has been misrepresentation by the Telegraph.
Here’s all the proof you need directly from the horse’s mouth:
http://www.nationalgrid.com/NR/rdonlyres/9A4B4080-3344-4C6D-8A19-411A867682F2/26834/GoneGreenfor2021.pdf
http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/Electricity/Operating+in+2020/
It’s one thing to be ruled by untrustworthy self-absorbed politicans and officials whose primary principle is expediency. That at least still falls within the bounds of rationality. We are now beyond insane and into very dangerous territory indeed and no one, not one person in parliament is pointing out that the emperor not only has no clothes but is also deaf, dumb and blind.
Does that mean you can’t charge your electric car anytime you want?
“Well it was interesting and certainly a brave new world”
There is nothing interesting about that. It is augmenting the expenses and decreasing the redundancy. If there is much more variable energy the expenses to have the same redundancy will be enormous. So they will have to be paid in prices and or in taxes.
This story does not appear on their web-site, why?
walt man says:
March 4, 2011 at 10:58 pm
The Uk will not run out of power (unless gas supplies cease) The talk is about better use of power (more efficient use of power that could reduce the need for additional generators). Current growth of use is minimal.
It will run out of capacity if no replacement stations are built – do you REALLY think that this will be allowed to happen?!
Sadly based on current plans it is true, a series of Coal fired stations are slated for closure as their CO2 emmissions break EU rules, plus the old Nuclear stations are nearing their decommissioning date too. UK gas is running out and being replaced by imports from Europe and the Middle East In short a perfect storm and there are still no firm plans for replacements except by Wind Farms, the replacement Nuclear stations are wishes with only the future locations known and as yet no firm plans. The clock is ticking and the long lead times mean the die is cast for blackouts.
And the UK is sitting on hugh deposits of Coal but even Coal fired stations with CO2 capture are being stopped by the greenies.
All EV owners will be issued with supplementary pedal-powered generators to recharge their cars. Immense ancillary benefits in national fitness are anticipated!
R. de Haan says:
March 4, 2011 at 4:13 pm
The protests have been staged from A to Z.
There is no food shortage, only to high food prizes thanks to the decline of the dollar, the bio fuel scam and high oil prices.
The protests have been triggered by the same scam artists that have pushed the climate change scam and plan for Global Governance.
What you see is an attempt to create the chaos to enable the First Global World Revolution and you better counter it.
You are absolutely right.
Robert
If you want to know what happens when the electricity goes off-line, in our 24/7 technological world, just Google for the effects of the North East backout (I think it was in 2003).
Everything comes to a halt – literally.
.
Poptech says:
March 4, 2011 at 8:19 pm
THIS ARTICLE IS FAKE.
It is not. Listen to BBC Radio 4 how National Grid’s Steve Holliday explains why 2011 is a crucial year for the UK’s energy system. You can hear it all in his own voice, the ”days of permanently available electricity coming to an end” thing included (it is at the end of the 02.45 record).
Just a thought.
Perhaps the Chief Exec of the National Grid has got fed up with trying to integrate unreliable wind into his increasingly strained network. Perhaps this is an inverted, nicely PC and slightly tongue in cheek, way of saying that the Greens and the gullible politicians that follow them have got their energy strategy wrong – THIS is what will happen unless you start thinking rationally.
.
What else do you expect with the chumps in charge? There is the chump-in-chief (Cameron), his deputy chump (Clegg) and then there is Milichump, sorry Miliband, leader of the Labour opposition, the very man who piloted the Climate Change Act through Parliament. The Coalition government even said, in its National Security Strategy review last summer, that the failure to secure a treaty at Copenhagen was “a strategic mistake”. Furthermore the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, Huhne, appears to be even more committed to wind farmery than Cameron, Clegg and Miliband.
FWIW I have written to my MP asking what the government is going to do about it and pointing out that even if you do buy the man made global warming hypothesis (I do not), building hundreds of wind farms is not the answer to the problem they perceive to exist.
It is unclear how this will be resolved politically, given the fact that only 5 or 6 MPs voted against the Climate Change Act. It will probably require an explosion in public opinion first to choke off the subsidies needed for such schemes, and then to reverse the insidious provisions of the Act which enable the energy companies to charge their customers extra to pay for the costs of all this nonsense, including extensions to the national electricity grid to connes to the many proposed offshore wind farms. You could not make this stuff up. Unfortunately it is the state of affairs in the UK as of now.
Anyway.
Why wind power for Britain ?
Just follow the money, as always.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1285456/As-Nick-Cleggs-Spanish-wife-gets-job-Madrid-wind-farm-firm-targeting-Britain-man-pens-irate-letter.html
Nothing new then, pocket-lining.
Nobody will remember in 5 years time, and if they do the ‘papers (big-biz-and-big-money) will make them forget
Money, money and more money.
But no sense, and no morality.
It seems the greens really want a low-carbon-low-population Uk so much that they’ll kill for it.
As for “smart appliances”…..get real, MANY people already wash/dry at night, and have been doing so for decades….electricity is nearly half the price in the night/evening and has been for ages…..how “smart” do you have to be to switch things on later ?
As for our “climate and energy secretary”:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/8211944/Chris-Huhne-has-a-blueprint-for-a-green-cold-dark-Britain.html
More money to follow, no doubt.
Thanks, Willis, I had not spotted this.
I bet I’m not the only one who wondered how much Mr Holiday is getting to come out with this sort of drivel. For an answer see:
http://bizblog.projo.com/2008/06/pay-hike-for-na.html
Well, it’s pretty hard running a monopoly. I just love the way they call it ”compensation” now, don’t you? It’s as if the job is so nasty to do that the remuneration is to compensate them for the blight to their lives. Don’t the bankers use the same terminology?
Which reminds me, for those who have not already seen it already, I urge you to read this article, also in the Daily Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8362951/Britain-at-risk-of-another-financial-crisis-Bank-of-England-chief-warns.html
as well as Charles Moore’s piece at:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/charlesmoore/8362464/Mervyn-King-is-right.-If-the-banks-face-no-risk-we-shall-all-go-down.html#
It’s a funny old world when people place more trust in easily revised articles from the ‘net than the traditional print media. Here’s another scan of the print article though
http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/3773/telegraph.jpg
Sadly there is no need for any conspiracy to embarass the UK regarding it’s energy policy. Our politicans are managing just fine, all by themselves. They’ll be alright and will continue to power the UK with wishful thinking and hot air. The rest of the UK may not be so lucky. Still, at least the last person to leave the UK won’t have to turn out the lights.
It seems as if the public school boys that rule Britain have finally lost the plot.
They do not care about the old, the sick or the poor —-let them freeze seems to be the attitude.
The government of China is alive to the problem of a future shortage in carbon energy sources as it has taken an interest in thorium nuclear power {LIFT } to supply China in the long term.
Our Governments seem to think that treating the electorate as simple minded expendable serfs is par for the course . One can only imagine their delight when sat on some island in the Carribean during a future winter they lift a glass of Krug and toast the mugs that support them back in cold, dark Britain.
Here’s a site, called “Create Your My2050”, where the goal is to bring the UK’s C02 production down to 20% of 1990 levels by 2050: http://my2050.decc.gov.uk/. You do this by picking and choosing various levels of both energy supply and demand. If your demand level outstrips supply, a warning icon appears, and you don’t get to advance in this ultimate Greenie fantasy world. Fun, in a perverse sort of way. Unfortunately, cost has not been factored in. Supposedly, they will do this in a future version.
Dave in Andover UK says:
March 4, 2011 at 5:31 pm
We get all our electricity from France ….. Viva La EDF !!!
No we don’t – the inter-connector can only supply around 2GW, or some 3.5% of maximum UK requirements.
JohnH says: March 5, 2011 at 2:32 am
Thatcher killed the coal industry. Much UK coal is in deep pits now allowed to flood. To re-open will not be economically feasible.
Chinese coal is where its at!
Katabasis says: March 5, 2011 at 2:05 am
There are some people here expressing doubts that this could possibly be the… position of the National Grid and/or that there has been misrepresentation by the Telegraph.
One link (‘Gone Green’ a Scenario for 2020) you offer has this statement:
This potential ‘business as usual’ future scenario
(depicted right) sees the closure of 12 GW of oil and
coal fired-plant under the Large Combustion Plant
Directive and the closure of 7.5 GW of nuclear
capacity. The market may ‘fill the gap’ with some
renewables; potentially 13 GW of transmission
connected, combined onshore and offshore wind
could be achieved. However, the dominant energy
source will be from about 15 GW of new gas-fired
generation. We believe that this energy mix may fall
substantially short of the 15% target and we support
the Government’s consultation on measures which
could address this issue.
Looks like plans for new generators are there.
sounds like an idea right out of here…
http://www.degrowth.org/
dare anyone to read it and not get ragingly angry, espec property right issues.
I see? the uk seems to be ignoring thorium reactors too? with all that waste they could use- not try and dump.
what are they NOT thinking?
Willis, when you put a phrase in parenthesis it usually indicates that the phrase is a direct quote. (that’s what parenthesesmean). You did exactly that but the phrase you quoted did not appear in the article, your excuse was that this is what it meant. Had you looked into the context rather more you would have found that your perception was wrong, nevertheless the misquote then sent this thread off into a discussion (rant) about a different issue.
This is the sort of Bull***t you expect from the warmist community.
Yes the UK has got inherent problems looming due to the inability of governments to sanction new power station capacity and that might lead to all sorts of problems. But this news report and the interview that it resulted from had nothing to do with that issue. Hallidays interview was about producing a more resilient and efficient power distribution system that produces the same outcomes with less resources.
Current power generation in many countries relies on sources of fuel that are non indigenous. When your oil supplies are dependent on unstable arab dictatorships (Libya) and your supplies of natural gas are routed to you via unstable ex communist countries it makes sense to start thinking about how you can maximise the efficiency of utilisation of these fuel sources and making plans to deal with any interruptions to supply that might occur.
As several commentators have pointed out, this interview, for those who have bothered to listen to it rather than joining the general slanging match about what he didn’t say, was concerned with using new technology to develop a smarter grid system and at no time did he say, as you inferred, that there would not be continuity of supply.
orgekafkazar says:
March 4, 2011 at 10:45 am
They’re “looking more to communities and individuals to take power into their own hands.”
Sounds like a jolly good idea to me. Power to the people! Throw the bureaucrats out!
========
I had that same thought as i read those lines. the people WILL take power into their own hands and the idiots like this one won’t like the result.
Arthur Dent says:
“Willis, when you put a phrase in parenthesis it usually indicates that the phrase is a direct quote. (that’s what parenthesesmean).”
Arthur, that’s not right. A direct quote uses quotation marks. Like I used with your quote above.
I was a long-time Conservative voter, but no longer. I probably won’t vote Conservative again until Cameron goes. He has betrayed his country over Europe. And his delusions about global warming and his lunatic energy policies are completely barking mad.
The fact that Cameron, before becoming Prime Minister, put a windmill on his roof is a bit of a clue.
Many senior Conservatives (including Margaret Thatcher and her chancellor!) are climate change sceptics. I was hopeful that a Conservative victory last year might introduce some realism. Instead we have a Coalition government with a Lib Dem (Chris Huhne) in charge of our energy and climate change policy. Now that’s what I call a real climate change catastrophe.
For the conceivable future I’ll be voting for the UK Independence Party, probably the only significant UK party that has some understanding of climate change. I completely agree with them on Europe, too. I hope that I live to see the day when Britain will finally gain her independence from the European Union. But for now it seems Britain is descending into the abyss. I was once proud to be British, but I’m not so sure now….
Chris
#
#
Tamara says:
March 4, 2011 at 11:28 am
Well, having no heat will make the wool comeback a lot easier to manage…
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/theroyalfamily/7069612/Prince-of-Wales-leading-wool-fashion-comeback.html
==========
an ASS in sheeps clothing, how novel
Just as they used the term “Climate Change” to disguise the fact that CAGW is an expensive delusion, they are using this to disguise the fact that powering the UK by windfarms is an expensive delusion.
“walt man says:
March 5, 2011 at 5:41 am”
Chinese coal? LOL You mean the Australian coal exported to China.
@walt
“plans” is a word that gives them far too much credit. The strategy outlined by the National grid includes expecting between 13-29 gigawatts of energy from wind by 2020. The very idea is simply beyond belief.
In 1974 when Britain still had a very sizable coal industry and lots of the power stations used coal the miners were on strike the Conservative government introducted a “Three Day Week” (instead of the normal 5 working days) to conserve coal stocks and to reduce disruption to the electricity supply. Those of you in other countries or Brits too young to remember those events can read about it in Wikipedia.
Three-Day Week
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Day_Week
It is quite obvious what we need to do now. We must re-introduce the Three Day Week and rely on Met Office forecasts each week to tell us which three days will be the windiest. Of course there would be many weeks with fewer than three windy days but, looking on the bright side, unlike the temperature the number of windy days cannot drop below zero!
I bought a 3.2kW generator at the end of last year (last one in Aldi – reduced to £129.99).
My family said: ‘When will you ever get to use that thing..?’
Watch this space….
Nostradamus ( to get your attention ) was not as good as Ayn Rand, we are in the first 3 chapters of ATLAS SHRUGGED, it reads like today’s news !!!!!
derise says:
March 4, 2011 at 11:15 am
Then it is time for the “little people” to do something about it! Be proactive in acquiring the latest energy source–one that will eliminate all reliance on coal, nuclear, wind and solar:
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3108242.ece
Italy and Greece aren’t going to be wasting any time utilizing this power source:
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3081694.ece
Get in touch with these people and make sure your local utility is on their customer list: http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3091266.ece
The alternative is to have a once-great country that will be a horrible place to live. Your choice, people of the UK.
Looking past the headline, which is an example of provocative yellow journalism of the sort one has come to expect from the Murdoch owned Telegraph, what Holliday is saying is that electricity prices will be based on time of day. Use of washers, driers, and charging electric cars will cost less if it is done off peak.
This is an economically sensible measure which could avoid excessive installation of facilities that are needed for peak periods, and make good use wind power which is available at night. Lowering the price of off peak electricity is not a new idea, and has been win-win strategy, which shares reduced cost of off peak power between the utilities and the customers.
This can be facilitated with a smart grid.
The same kind of project is proposed in my home state of Vermont.
http://recovery.vermont.gov/blog/unite
The project is called eEnergy Vermont because smart grid means using digital technology to make better use of energy resources than was ever possible before. For consumers the smart grid means better information about our energy use and much better control over it including substantial opportunities to save money by using electricity when it is cheap and shunning it when it is expensive as well as better reliability. For utilities the smart grid means an opportunity to cooperate with their customers to reduce expensive buys of peak electricity, avoid the need to build as much generation and transmission capability as would otherwise be necessary to deal with escalating peaks (the grid must be sized for peaks), and lower operational costs which include but go way beyond the obvious cost of sending someone out to read your meter. The distributed small sources of renewable power popping up around the state are better used and therefore more valuable if plugged into a smart grid. For the country a smarter grid means reduced reliance on foreign oil and lower CO2 emissions as well as a stronger economy because of lower energy costs.
There are many cures for this kind of ignorant arrogance and a good place to start is with representation.
They rigged the system to bring the shortage about then tell the public to get used to it.
Looks like the Chinese have won the cold war.
Brrrrrr.
Mr. Holliday’s referral to the smart use of the grid is the same philosophy that is being pushed in the US as the “smart grid”. The upper-level concept is that the individual’s consumption of electricity will be controlled remotely by some (possibly governmental) agency. When power becomes less or unavailable, the “grid” will turn off your refrigerator, lower your heat, or suck power out of your electric car to redirect the supply to “more critical” applications.
A competing solution would simply add buffering to the grid to make more efficient use of the power that is generated and to smooth out periods of no or lesser generating capacity. This solution requires no extra wires, no major revamp of the grid, and no government intervention in the individuals power choices. This will, of course, never fly due to it’s elegance and lack of need for our governmental masters involvement.
Berényi Péter, “It is not. Listen to BBC Radio 4 how National Grid’s Steve Holliday explains why 2011 is a crucial year for the UK’s energy system. You can hear it all in his own voice, the ”days of permanently available electricity coming to an end” thing included (it is at the end of the 02.45 record).”
I did and he says no such thing. Show me the quote where he says anything about the, “days of permanently available electricity coming to an end”. That is a gross distortion of what he actually said,
What he says is,
“The grid’s going to be a very different system in 2020 2030. We keep thinking about we want it to be there and provide power when we need it. It’s going to be a much smarter system then, were going to have to change our own behaviour and consume it when it’s available and available cheaply.”
That does not mean you will not have permanently available electricity (no power at all). Nor does it have anything to do with having unlimited power as you don’t even have that now. Any grid can be overloaded. What he could simply mean is the rates will fluctuate automatically based on the grid’s load. So you can use all you want during peak times but it is going to be much more expensive. The expense of course would be increased dramatically if it only came from renewables which is I believe what he is getting at for a 2020, 2030 scenario. This will naturally make people drastically change their behavior to save money. That is a much different interpretation than the government deciding to arbitrarily shut your power off for “green” reasons.
eadler – Murdoch does not own The Telegraph.
Chris Booker and James Delingpole both work for The Telegraph – and are about the only journos who routinely and vociferously air their skeptical views on CAGW.
The problem with articles like this is they generate propaganda that the UK government is going to in the future have certain times of the day when you have no electricity at all (The days of permanently available electricity may be coming to an end). I am as anti-green energy as they come but these sorts of wild distortions do nothing to help and only fuel useless rhetoric. I still want to know why this is not online and there is not author.
“Earth hour” to become an every day random occurence.
It could get worse in the UK if we follow the German susidies: From http://thegwpf.org/international-news/2586-eu-energy-commissioner-warns-of-de-industrialization.html we have
@ eadler March 5, 2011 at 7:16 am
What they are proposing is a change in the way society works, not just an efficiency measure that will be facilitated by a smart grid. Humans and our societies are not nocturnal, never have been. More efficient distribution of energy (both geographically and temporally) is laudable but is not a panacea and certainly will not result in CO2 reductions of any significance. The energy will still be consumed, and if society shifts into such a night/day duality, energy use could actually increase.
And I sure wish you would define “facilitate” in this context. Do you mean “aiding the consumer” or “aiding the powers-that-be”. Who controls the switch? This is why I fear the CAGW green movement: the very real threat that control of my own life will be significantly reduced because a Green Czar knows better how I should live it.
Living ,as I do , in an ex British colony we have a very significant part of the smart grid that goes back over 60 years. It is called a “ripple relay” and it helps load shed individual homes when electrical generation falls behind demand.
It is a remotely controlled electrical contact that is wired into the domestic hot water geyser. When the central control room sends a voltage ripple down the line the relay breaks the circuit and the electrical elements in the hot water tank are turned off.
When supply and demand are more in balance a second “ripple” is sent and the circuit is made once more.
This happens unknown to the occupier and it does help a great deal during the morning and evening peaks. Of course this system no longer works, not that it would matter as thanks to no maintenance or new investment we have power outages for several hours a day , sometimes even for a few days. It is a huge drawback to economic activity this not having reliable electricity.
Smokey , thanks for the correction. Quotation marks are what Willis used and what I meant to say – Just shows you shouldn’t put pen to paper (or hit the keyboard) when you are still irritated!!
Poptech says:
March 5, 2011 at 7:43 am
But what you’re basically saying harks back to when man first encountered fire–he generally had to wait until a fortituous lightening strike near him caught the grass or trees on fire and he decided to warm himself by the blaze. He eventually decided to try sticking some raw meat into such a blaze and found it tasted much better cooked than raw. Finally man decided to control this amazing thing called “fire” so he discovered a way to start one whenever he wanted it, and stored sufficient fuel so he could have ample benefit for as long as he needed it.
However, relying on wind and solar is a step backwards–you’re subjecting man to the whims and vagaries of nature; man is no longer in control. http://www.claverton-energy.com/wind-energy-variability-new-reports.html Certainly you’d agree if there was a way to generate power on demand that turns out to be much cheaper and more reliable than wind/solar (or even coal, hydro and nuclear), there’d be reason to pursue it, right? Well, you’re in luck:
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3108242.ece
Poptech
“The grid’s going to be a very different system in 2020 2030. We keep thinking about we want it to be there and provide power when we need it. It’s going to be a much smarter system then, were going to have to change our own behaviour and consume it when it’s available and available cheaply.”
That does not mean you will not have permanently available electricity (no power at all). Nor does it have anything to do with having unlimited power as you don’t even have that now.
That is a much different interpretation than the government deciding to arbitrarily shut your power off for “green” reasons.
Sorry but ‘consume when available’ means it will be unavailable at other times, you seem to be saying when short of power the price will go up but still be available, well what if you cannot afford it, how many people will need to die if Nov/Dec 2010 is repeated when the comsumption was maxed out and the Wind Turbines were deadly still. How much a Kwh will it be then.
During my one week stay in Jamaica more than a decade ago, this is exactly what happened. And there was no warning in advance. The juice would just mysteriously disappear in odd unpredictable cadence. Even on a blue sky day.
The high-end gated resorts (mostly owned by some other non-Jamaican entity I gathered) were equipped with power generators. But I was not in a resort such as that. We stayed in a little pseudo-resort village on the hurricane/pirate-port side of the island, populated by roaming door to door trinket sellers and Medusa-haired rasta men selling used pot cigs. These folks were aggressive sellers. They wouldn’t bother to knock on a door you couldn’t lock anyway. They would just wander in and start talking in broken Jamaican English. By the time they left, you were less a few pieces of silver and the new owner of a poorly made straw and yarn trinket basket, complete with a pot stub. I kept the basket and threw the foul smelling stub away.
Usually every warning is serving a purpose , even by government officials , who generally are creating more burocracy as the problem needs to be resolved …..
What this guy is doing is no different from the climate scare mongers , who are constantly busy creating more government funding without giving any positive contribution to our society . Government officials are luckily not creating the future of our society , facts and perceived futural disasters are always happening to them and there is very little they are able to change , although they may be claiming differently .
Our society is above all influenced by individual stubborn brilliant minds and in future this will not be different , so do not loose hope , if other inviduals are ruled by anxiety ,
the future will have unforeseen pleasant surprises for us as long as we humans ourselves do not spoil it and the planetary constellations permit this .
Yes but Mr. Holliday, we have the necessary technology to make this pernicious threat, just that, it ain’t rocket science but for numpties like you, obviously it must be too complicated.
You’re in the wrong job old son, this ain’t school, this is life and death you’re bullshitting on about.
BTW, you are an arrogant tw8t too, even stoopid people like me can read between the lines, your contempt shows through, to my sensibilities, the loathing is reciprocal.
@poptech,
Oh blah! The technicalities and niceties of who said what….Well! We don’t care, the facts are the salient points here and the fact is, this threat is unnecessary, totally out of order but totally in keeping with the arrogance of our political leaders.
These political leaders wish us to change our ways for no good reason, they will do so without a mandate and against the will of the populace, that is the tyranny of an unhinged Kleptocracy – see the EU.
AGW is the vehicle, the excuse, the lie that drives this ‘green dogma’ forward, ask yourself this, just who the the ***k benefits, it sure as sh*t ain’t gonna be the taxpayer is it??
I live in the sticks and my local power supply kicks out quite often. It’s more of a nuisance rather than a problem, as I have a petrol generator big enough to power lights, refrigeration, and oil fired boiler and associated time-clocks/pumps.
Should the grid be incapable of continuous power on a large scale, I think people will quickly adapt to the new regime – I also expect a large number of politicians will be buried before the stupidity ends.
re Eadler
Murdoch does not own the Telegraph, the Barclay brothers do.
Assuming the wind blows at night, which it often does not. You are ignoring some fundamental problems though. The UK does not have enough energy as roughly 30GW is due to go offline soon thanks to the greens and their anti-nuclear and coal lobbying. We have nothing to replace that with except pipe dreams.
We already have off-peak tarriffs in the UK, so Economy 7 has a slightly higher daytime unit cost, and a lower night time tariff. That’s useful if you have electric hot water storage and storage heaters. Which many people in the UK don’t because they’re not considered green. Using washers and driers overnight may also be a tad impractical given the noise they make.
These suggestions will help sellers of smart grids, meters, appliances but will not help consumers. Our electricity companies are happy because the enforced scarcity just means they can create new tarriffs and charge consumers more. They’ll profit, we’ll pay and because it’s an essential utility, we have very little choice. Our current politicians are in favour of the scheme and we can’t easily get rid of them till our next general elections. Even non-compliance methods, like not paying green surcharges on our bills won’t work because suppliers can simply force the use of pre-pay meters.
Unless our politicians wake up (UKIP excepted), the UK is not going to be a very nice place to live, and certainly not a good place to do business.
Since the so-called “government” of Britain seems bent on restoring the late 19th century, without the coal, perhaps the population might take lessons from the late 18th:
1) How about a Declaration of Independence from the wretched EU?
2) Why not import from France less electricity and more guillotines?
… just a thought from a sympathetic Yank…
Interesting, the hysterical allegations of fraud leveled here.
The story reflects the result of environmentalism gone crazy in the Western world. Its subject has been predicted in America in virtually every public forum where utility companies must defend a requests for increased power generation against mobs of ill-informed environmentalists and delusional amateur economists. Not to mention self-taught “experts” on every imaginable topic from the propagation of energy from cow farts, kitchen waste (vegetarian only, please), cold fission, and crystals.
I think we Brits are at last beginning to get on to this issue.
In a by election at Barnsley this week UKIP (the only party which dissents our asinine energy policies) doubled its vote and came second. John Constable in Standpoint (www.standpointmag.co.uk) in an article entitled “Renewables won’t keep the lights on” has set out the sorry facts about Britain’s current energy policy for anyone who is interested.
Arthur Dent says:
March 5, 2011 at 6:19 am
I think you are talking about quotations rather than parentheses, but with you one is never sure. if so, you are correct. I thought I had quoted it exactly, but I hadn’t.
However, the idea that my misquote is the issue is ludicrous. The issue is that THE UK IS RUNNING OUT OF POWER.
Maybe if you wrapped your mind around that, instead of looking to bust me for a slight imperfection in my quotation, you might be able to actually contribute something to this thread.
Or not. Choice is yours.
w.
Arthur Dent says:
March 4, 2011 at 1:26 pm
You know, I got to thinking about this. I had actually believed you, Arthur. But I’m usually pretty accurate. So I looked at the article again. It says EXACTLY WHAT I QUOTED!! In the second freakin’ paragraph, too, not hidden away.
So go away, Arthur. Not only are you a nitpicker, you can’t even read. Here’s the quote:
Which is what I said. Teach me to believe your claims, I’ll not make that mistake again.
w.
In our remote corner of Oregon supplied with few main lines, the juice cuts out in stormy weather and can take some time to get back up again. I know of many homes and cabins equipped with secondary private power sources wired to come on when ever the power cuts out. At the ranch house, I have no such additional automatic source. If I’m not here, things can go belly up in a hurry. But that is the price of farms and ranches not able to charge for the true cost of food production.
They don’t call WUWT a “spreader of information” for nuthin… Keep up the good work guys!!
[Fixed. ~dbs☺]
Geez……..
Rule 1. Use parentheses to enclose words or figures that clarify or are used
as an aside.
Examples: I expect five hundred dollars ($500).
He finally answered (after taking five minutes to think) that he did not understand the question.
Commas could have been used in the above example. Parentheses show less emphasis or importance.
Em dashes, which could also have been used instead of parentheses, show emphasis.
Rule 2. Use full parentheses to enclose numbers or letters used for listed items.
Example: We need an emergency room physician who can (1) think quickly, (2) treat patients respectfully, and (3) handle complaints from the public.
Rule 3. Periods go inside parentheses only if an entire sentence is inside the parentheses.
Examples: Please read the analysis (I enclosed it as Attachment A.).
OR
Please read the analysis. (I enclosed it as Attachment A.)
OR
Please read the analysis (Attachment A).
No, nothing about quotations. They are used for clarity or context.
Well, let’s see.
Arthur’s claim of a misquote is gone.
Claims that it’s a fake article are gone.
All we’re left with is people who disagree with the interpretation of the article and adamently think they are right and whomever disagrees is wrong.
What else is new?
[Fixed. ~dbs☺]
Haha
My point exactly…. 🙂
[Gratuitous insults are frowned upon. I turned your nasty and baseless insult against everyone who visits this site into a complement. Much better, no? ~dbs, mod.]
DRE says:
March 4, 2011 at 10:36 am
<i."So I guess the human race has just given up. The scramble for dry caves will begin soon. Get yours while you can."
Struth mate! The caves down here have been occupied for some time. And not just the dry ones.
Yorkshire Chris says:
March 4, 2011 at 10:38 am
“… that will squeeze out of the UK the last of its remaining manufacturing industry.”
” … now it is the leader in showing how to reduce a once great nation to a weak power. I hope all our friends in the US, Australia, Canada and elsewhere take note and do not follow our example!”
Too late, Chris. Way too late.
Clear evidence that the AGW scam is taking us back to the Dark Ages.
I must say I’m bemused by a lot of the comments on this thread. OK, the trolls make a showing. Then some nit pickers and quibblers show up. But then some regular WUWT commenters, whose comments normally deserve respect, throw Teddy out of the cot and accuse Willis of perpetrating a fraud!
Really?
Not Joe Romm and Bob Ward, but some people who know a thing or two about power on the one hand and the Greenies on the other!
Well, just for the record, Willis is 100% right, the Telegraph piece is 100% kosher and I heard the BBC Radio 4 “Today” interview with Holliday with my own lying ears.
And (whilst I shouted at the radio in the time honoured fashion, much to the ususal annoyance of my long suffering wife), there was nothing that surprised me.
Because management of electricity demand has long been a plank of the UK (and EU) Greenie platform. Yes, partly by pricing, partly by “Smart Meters” and a new generation of electrical appliances which will turn themselves off (or reduce consumption to a trickle) at the command of the metres.
Now, the proponents of such a scheme tend not to shout the idea from the rooftops. But you aren’t going to have to look to far to find some more details. Look up “zerocarbonbritain2030” in a search engine. Download their ludicrous report (funded/ partnered by Mystic MET and the UEA amongst others.)
OK, they don’t boldly state that they are going they are going to pull the plug and leave little old ladies to die of hypothermia.
But that will clearly be the end result of their stupid religion.
Willis, I apologise unreservedly.
That will teach me to read the whole article and not just a bit of it
Every Willis post becomes a lightning rod for comments…
…almost 4oo this one alone.
If there were only a way to capture that lightning to get it to generate electricity…
Well if you need to see half the problem the take a look at the speakers list. As you may guess “balance” is not likely. Don’t laugh too loudly though. Seems that over in the US you have NYC taking energy providers to court for the criminal act of … providing NYC with power. La la land for all. US included.
I’m thinking that some time in the far future there will be Cockroach scientists digging up “western” cultures from the fossil record and wondering why they died hungry and alone in the cold and dark.Eventually some really bright “roach” will work out that “energy” and “food production” were outlawed because the dipsticks had taken over “law making”. Carbon Dioxide, the very base of the food chain, was outlawed as a pollutant and everything else just followed. Nobody could stop it and the lights just went out.
Complete fantasy my friend … where are you going to find a machine (idle or otherwise in the UK.:~)
Our economy is built on borrowed money and non-jobs for everyone. As Booker has pointed out, we have more that 50% of the working population of the UK employed by HMG. You don’t have to be an economist to see that that can’t continue (without more borrowing).
WILLIS FOR PRESIDENT 2012.
Zeke Hausfather says:
March 4, 2011 at 1:26 pm
I’d blame this one mostly on poor reporting (coupled with poor phrasing on Holliday’s part). If you listen to the original interview, its clearer that he is talking about the ability of a smart grid to use various demand-response strategies (equipment cycling, etc.) coupled with a time of use price signal to flatten out load variations. We’re quickly implementing something similar here in the U.S.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9410000/9410485.stm
You are exactly correct. Here is what is happening in Vermont.
http://recovery.vermont.gov/blog/unite
The project is called eEnergy Vermont because smart grid means using digital technology to make better use of energy resources than was ever possible before. For consumers the smart grid means better information about our energy use and much better control over it including substantial opportunities to save money by using electricity when it is cheap and shunning it when it is expensive as well as better reliability. For utilities the smart grid means an opportunity to cooperate with their customers to reduce expensive buys of peak electricity, avoid the need to build as much generation and transmission capability as would otherwise be necessary to deal with escalating peaks (the grid must be sized for peaks), and lower operational costs which include but go way beyond the obvious cost of sending someone out to read your meter. The distributed small sources of renewable power popping up around the state are better used and therefore more valuable if plugged into a smart grid. For the country a smarter grid means reduced reliance on foreign oil and lower CO2 emissions as well as a stronger economy because of lower energy costs.
I’m an Australian who has lived in the UK since 1997, does that count?
The truth is, as Lord Monckton said, Europe is no longer free.
The undemocratic European Union is now the defacto government of Europe, and the EU is a national socialist state founded on the big lie of catastrophic anthropomorphic global warming.
Think the NAZIs all died in the Nuremberg trials? You might find this interesting.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100076404/why-do-i-call-them-eco-nazis-because-they-are-eco-nazis/
So expect more green mania, as the authoritarian tyrants of Europe assert their authority, justified by the “need” to combat climate change.
eadler says:
March 4, 2011 at 4:51 pm
It seems that you and your fellow travellers in doubting the authenticity of the article have been right royally put straight by a number of contributors.
It might add to the picture if I tell you that the Barclays, a pair of reclusive brothers that live on a small island in the tax haven of the Channel Islands, are much given to accepting part of the Renewables Obligation levy in the form of payment for huge advertisements in their paper the DT, which praise the work of the Carbon Trust, a govt. body that promotes the warming nonsense and villifies CO2.
In this way the Govt uses our taxes, for tax is what it is, to brainwash us into accepting …..the tax!
Returning to your scepticism ( of this post) I am impressed that none of you trolls were prepared to accept this story without a full examination of it’s veracity.
I do however find it somewhat puzzling that such inquiring forensic minds are unable to see that a woolly hat has been slipped over their eyes for some considerable time.
I think my post may have been misdirected
How UK-citizens can put up with this, is a miracle. Too bad this is what we are heading for, in all of Europe. Who would have guessed that the UK would lead the fall of a continent. Britain ruled the waives once. They opposed to the influence of the EU beyond belief and managed to stay out of the €uro. Now they kneel for the green imposters, who betray them with their junk science and lure them into a lifestyle of the Dark Ages (literally and figuratively).
“We make your life miserable” and they really seem to get away with it.
Unbelievable. Where is the emergency exit?
I’ve read quite a few of the comments on this item and as a daily reader of WUWT and the Telegraph can confirm that Willis is correct on every item. I was so mad when I read the article I subjected my wife to a ten minute unprintable tirade. I’ve looked at the annual accounts of National Grid PLC for 2009 & 2010 and find that this C.E.O.( Circular Excreting Orifice) ‘ar..hole’ for short, was remunerated in 2009 with £2.206,000 and in 2010 by £2,273,000 so I suppose he can afford to run his own bloody generator. I’m now even bloody madder
The Daily Telegraph article appears to have gone viral. Even the China news is commenting on it. It is everywhere. Just look at the 400 responses here. It is indicative of the concern for power supplies everywhere. And that is why I have 15 kw, 4 kw and 1 kw generators on my farm. I can’t afford to be without power. One is liquid natural gas and two are gasoline and I can power a others with a diesel inverters. I hooked my parents up with a generator years ago and a lot of folks in Ontario and Quebec have emergency gen sets after the ice storm a few years back. I am guessing the Angleterres will soon be out buying gen sets for their townhouses in the near future. Most of the farm people I know in England already have gen sets for back up as they know the system is unreliable.
RockyRoad, “However, relying on wind and solar is a step backwards–you’re subjecting man to the whims and vagaries of nature; man is no longer in control.”
Yes, yes I know wind and solar are not economically viable or reliable, I am not arguing that. I am arguing taking what someone said drastically out of context.
JohnH, “Sorry but ‘consume when available’ means it will be unavailable at other times, you seem to be saying when short of power the price will go up but still be available, well what if you cannot afford it, how many people will need to die if Nov/Dec 2010 is repeated when the comsumption was maxed out and the Wind Turbines were deadly still. How much a Kwh will it be then.”
That is more likely poor phrasing by him because if that is what he meant then he would not have also said “…and when it is available cheaply“. I interpreted his comment exactly how I said. A responsible journalist would ask him if he thinks there will be NO POWER at certain times before making such irresponsible statements as (The days of permanently available electricity may be coming to an end). I suspect anyone that asks will be greatly embarrassed. Look you are missing my point, I am NOT endorsing worthless “renewable energy” I have a problem with gross distortions of what someone actually said and meant.
Wayne Delbeke, “The Daily Telegraph article appears to have gone viral.”
This is what I am afraid of and now they have something new to make fun of us with, embarrassing.
C**t
Everyone commenting on this site are truly out of touch: It could just be that peak oil and peak everything have finally arrived. You have to be really deluded to not be able to look around and see an overwhelming pattern-that this world has more and more people and less and less of EVERYTHING, including oil. The whole world shall be powering down soon enough.
REPLY: and that will make you happy, Won’t it ? -A
The first shutdown of power and/or major blackout shall see it’s first fullscale country-wide riot leading into fullscale civil war.
Take away people’s heat, running water, and spoil the food in their fridges that they purchased with their hard earned money, etc, and the politicians will be first-hand witnesses to the animals that most of us are capable of being in times of despair.
I referenced Willis post over at Greentech Media earlier in the week in the comment section of an energy storage article:www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/compressed-air-energy-storage-beats-batteries/
Over here in CA we had our brown outs (and rather high electrical costs due in large part to our friends at Enron manipulating the energy market) early in the last decade. In fact our energy crisis lead to the recall of Governor Davis (the Terminator lead the state until our recent election which brought Governor Brown back into office). Governor Brown is on record as supporting a recently passed law (AB2514) that requires our electrical generators and grid management team to evaluate the role that energy storage can play in our electrical system to ensure our grid remains reliable as we move towards our 33%RES for the electrical market.
Like the UK we are installing smart meters at a rapid rate here in CA (I have had a semi-smart meter since 2006 when I went solar with a 6.12 KW PV system). From what I have been able to decipher from PG&E’s pubic general rate case documentation- presented to the CPUC- it looks like dynamic pricing will be the norm as we move towards more renewables over the next decade. That way PG&E’s customers can decide if they want to pay premium pricing at peak demand times or curtail their usage.
I happen to be on the the same grid as my local hospital, so I don’t normally have to worry about back up power for our little homestead- which does have a well. Depending on how the dynamic pricing out here in CA goes I will move to a generator for back up power.
Ruby, “Everyone commenting on this site are truly out of touch: It could just be that peak oil and peak everything have finally arrived. You have to be really deluded to not be able to look around and see an overwhelming pattern-that this world has more and more people and less and less of EVERYTHING, including oil. The whole world shall be powering down soon enough.”
Nonsense,
Myth: The World is Running Out of Oil (Video) (5min) (ABC News)
‘Peak Oil’ Is a Waste of Energy (The New York Times)
Peak Oil and other threatening peaks—Chimeras without substance (PDF)
(Energy Policy, Volume 38, Issue 11, pp. 6566-6569, November 2010)
– Marian Radetzki
“The Peak Oil movement has widely spread its message about an impending peak in global oil production, caused by an inadequate resource base. On closer scrutiny, the underlying analysis is inconsistent, void of a theoretical foundation and without support in empirical observations. Global oil resources are huge and expanding, and pose no threat to continuing output growth within an extended time horizon. In contrast, temporary or prolonged supply crunches are indeed plausible, even likely, on account of growing resource nationalism denying access to efficient exploitation of the existing resource wealth.“
Ruby above, I’ve never read so much crap.
Check out the coal reserves of Queensland, Australia.
Enough coal at present world consumption to last another 3000 years, yes, Three Thousand.
And while you are at it, check out the Queensland natural gas reserves, described by the Queensland government as “inexhaustible” !
No links for you, do your own research instead of writing rubbish here.
@Poptech
You seem to have glommed onto a rather poor turn of phrase in the opening paragraph: “The days of permanently available electricity may be coming to an end …”
But consider the headline:
– and the actual quoted content in the article, viz:
which was taken verbatim from the BBC 4 “Today” program.
Now, I could be mistaken (although in this instance I doubt that I am) but the opposite of “constant” is “intermittent” – a word which is not inconsistent with “not permanently available”.
In my books this is an indication that, according to Holliday, citizens in the U.K. will be looking forward (or more appropriately, perhaps, “looking backward”) to a future of intermittent electricity which will require that they “change their behaviour”.
YMMV, but to my mind this is not a good thing.
As for the rest of the article (and the fact that no author is listed), my guess would be that a junior at the Telegraph (whose work does not yet warrant a byline) might have contacted Holliday (or read other newspaper accounts) and got some additional quotes (that were not made during the BBC interview).
Anyway, Atomic Hairdryer (March 5, 2011 at 4:35 am) has now posted a scan of the print article (in case you missed it):
http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/3773/telegraph.jpg
Interestingly, the article immediately beneath that which you continue to question also lacks a byline.
As for “why it is not online”, who knows?! Perhaps your question would be better directed towards the Telegraph – the publishers of which are not obliged (well, not by any convention of which I’m aware) to place every article from their print edition in their online edition (or vice versa for that matter).
[[[ Ruby says:
March 5, 2011 at 3:45 pm
Everyone commenting on this site are truly out of touch: It could just be that peak oil and peak everything have finally arrived. … ]]]
When you find yourself freezing to death in your own home during some future winter, you’ll gladly run to the mine for a bucket of coal. That will put YOU back in touch. There is no supply problem worldwide with our coal commodity. Watch how a little shivering will change your attitude about that… real fast.
Alan Simpson says: “I will be honest, I am in the UK, as I walk to my local pub on a night I glance up and admire how many lamp posts we have, if what that article describes became reality there would be a Civil Servant or Politician hanging from every one, fingers crossed.
Here in the US, in the great Southwest, we have a saying for times like these: “Get a rope”. I’ve been looking at lamp posts, also. They are a lot taller than they used to be. Going to take some long rope.
However, at times like this (and I hope that someone from across the pond can be forgiven to quoting Shakespeare to Englishmen):
This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,–
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.
Don’t let the bastards get you down. You are meant for much greater things than these petty hooligans are dishing out.
David L says:
March 5, 2011 at 2:05 am
Does that mean you can’t charge your electric car anytime you want?
Listening to his address to the RAE (more than one hour including questions) that is very much the impression I got, and it seems understandable.
I think that in terms of useful energy (at the wheels) the UK filling station network has a similar order of capactiy as the National Grid. If we all decided to fill up at once we would have extensive queueing at the pumps, the same if we all owned electric vehicles and we all decided to charge them at the same moment.
Now the first case, fillings stations, we expect that to happen, in the second case, plugging in a vehicle, we would not expect that to happen, he seemed to be saying that we will have to get accustomed to the idea that it will happen.
The equivilant “charging rate” at a petrol pump is I believed measured in MW, (not including the idle time at the pump), but this is a lot bigger than typical domestic power ratings (12-25KW) for everything. This should give some idea of the scale of the problem of charging a largely electric national vehicle fleet.
Residential substations (not pole transformers) seem to vary from around 350kVa (~350kW with an ideal load factor) to around 1-2MW, but most seem to be at the smaller end.
So most residential substations are rated below the equivilent charging rate of a single petrol pump (if they did nothing but charge vehicles). Over the course of a day a substation could charge a lot of vehicles but not all the local vehicles quickly and at once.
Now these are rough figures pulled together in some haste but I think give some sense of the efficacy of filling stations when it comes to topping up vehicles.
The following wiki figures should be good for a guide for petrol:
9.7kWh/Litre
36.6kWh/US Gallon
A petrol pump with a 5G/min flow rate is equivalent to ~11MW
In terms of useful electric equivalent motive power one could reasonably divide that by 3 giving around 4MW, so you do not have to have a huge number of people filling up simultaneously to be in the GW power station range.
There is one reading of what Mr Holliday had to say that runs like: sorry but we can’t economically build a network that will rival the efficacy of the filling station network.
I do not think my numbers are hugely out but if anyone has better please post them.
Arthur Dent says:
March 5, 2011 at 12:45 pm
The act of a true gentleman, sir. My hat is off to you.
w.
eadler says:
Use of washers, driers, and charging electric cars will cost less if it is done off peak.
Attn., eadlers of the world, since we know you only want to “help” save the world and humanity, after a fashion alleged by one who says he is “partners with God” to therefore be perhaps somewhat like “making the rough places plane”, some important feedback that you urgently need to know has just arrived via Shirley McClain and Joan Baez’s Channelling Network, concerning the responses of both Gaia and Allah to your, the U.K’s, and Vermont’s apparently somewhat feckless attempts to engineer Social Justice’s promised low cost, perfectly Equalized, Flat Lined Utopia.
Shirley and Joan, one with Gaia, say these various fledgling responses, ostensibly in order to reduce Her “fever” and justly redress Humanity’s unsustainable Ecological Overshoot via meting out “social justice”, are all well and good, but that She will refuse to open the Horn of Plenty until the obscene standard of living inequality between the rich and poor nations causing CO2=CAGW is but a deathly yellowing within the eyeballs of any remaining Capitalist Oppressors and Despoilers.
Meanwhile, they also have Allah saying He holds firm to His own more stringent Dictates, by reaffirming that He will still not rescind His demands for Holy Purification of Humanity and the World until everyone on Earth proves they are not Infidels by committing suicide in order to kill Infidels, although a simple suicide will, therefore, suffice. [What He said about Osama bin Laden’s hypocrisy along these lines would only rupture more eardrums.]
Therefore, eadlers of the world, apparently there is still much work for you to do towards achieving your Equalitarian Utopia on Earth via producing a qualitatively perfect Flat Line of Equality, although apparently there is still no quanitative limit on how low you can go in order to achieve the perfection of equal flatness, and thus of Social Justice.
But even if it is achieved, say, by your envisioned Central Ministry of Electric Justice’s “smart grid” applications to produce a perfectly Flat Line of Electric Equality – with, of course, an in home Electric Chair included – and then equally abetted eventually by Obamacare’s own “complete life” and “end of life care” = “completed life” societal worth metric vs the cost of made-scarce resources because of the various “peaks”, as envisioned by Obama’s own Dr. Zeke Emmanuel to achieve its own perfect Flat Line of Equality – not to be confused with Death Panels, “because we say so” – Allah will still probably require you all to leave Earth anyway!
Mr Holliday will be very popular with the wife and children, all wanting dinner, and being told “you will have to wait until the power comes on”.
Electric heat? No problem just wear a hat, coat and gloves to bed. You’ll probably be too hungry too sleep, so what does a bit of cold matter?
Even better, when you are away from the house, as soon as the power goes out every housebreaker in the neighborhood can go to work. With no burgular alarms or security cameras to cause problems.
Those riding in elevators in high-rise buildings will especially like this. No problem, “you will have to wait until the power comes on”.
Mr Holliday will be very popular around the office, when everyone sits down to start work, only to find the computers and telephones without power, “you will have to wait until the power comes on”.
Mr Holliday will also be very popular when people are walking the streets at night, only to have the lights go off. He will no doubt he would be very popular with his own wife or daughters if they are out walking. No problem, just stay where you are, out on the dark street, “until the power comes on”.
I’ve life in the tropics, those countries where the power cannot be relied upon. That is fine in the tropics. There is a reason people are laid back in the tropics. If the power fails, it is no big deal. Outside the tropics, if the power fails, people die. So, over many generation, people in cold climates have developed different attitudes and lifestyles than those people living in the tropics. Mr. Holliday’s policies are likely to kill many people in the UK. Doing his bit to solve the population problem.
Sounds like it is time for everyone in the UK to install a coal bin. Lots of houses probably still have them from before the war, boarded over. You can probably buy 10 tons of lignite for 100 pounds, more then enough for the winter. Way cheaper than electric heat and the ash makes a fine grit for the walkways when it snows. You’ve had a lot of that the past few winters in the UK. Global warming no doubt.
hro001, “Now, I could be mistaken (although in this instance I doubt that I am) but the opposite of “constant” is “intermittent” – a word which is not inconsistent with “not permanently available”. ”
That is my point, he is not quoted as using either word (constant or intermittent) let alone ‘permanent’. That is IMO a gross distortion of what he said and not helpful to the debate. I did not hear him state that there would be times of the day or year when you would have no electricity available or “intermittent power” like a third world nation rather that the “smart grid” will adjust rates based on total power availability vs total demand. Yes I agree we should be using whatever is available, coal, natural gas and nuclear instead of wind and solar but that is a different argument then what it being implied with this article.
In US since Van Buren they say OK when something is OK so now if it wouldn’t they could say UK.
There seems to be considerable difference between what Holiday was actually saying and how some politically motivated people want it to be understood.
“A petrol pump with a 5G/min flow rate is equivalent to ~11MW”
About the same as 11 large windmills.
Konrad says:
I can see a solution to this. Slow combustion syngas generators running on dried biomass producing H2 and CO to be fed to small four stroke generators. Cars have been run on wood chips with this system.[…]
Micro generation and bootleg power could be the start of the anti kleptocracy revolution. Syngas can even be converted to liquid fuels through the Fischer–Tropsch process. Bootleg petrol?
Let the revolution begin:
This first one has a neat video of folks making a DIY F-T reactor. They also sell a DIY “open source” gassifier for operating cars and generators and stuff on yard trash:
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2011/02/23/diy-gasoline-and-diesel-from-wood-and-trash/
Some more in depth stuff on what’s going on now in the world of coal to liquids:
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2011/03/05/zsm-5-and-liquid-beds/
And a small note on the competition:
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2011/03/01/oil-and-gasoline-prices/
There is also a fair amount of content in the comments where added stuff is posted, such as a car crossing the Golden Gate Bridge using walnut shells as fuel in a video in the first link, comments.
For those questioning the authenticity of the article, I would point to England’s Number Watch. I have never questioned the truthfulness or accuracy of Dr. John Brignell:
http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/2011%20March.htm
[[[ ferd berple says:
March 5, 2011 at 5:52 pm
…Sounds like it is time for everyone in the UK to install a coal bin. Lots of houses probably still have them from before the war, boarded over. You can probably buy 10 tons of lignite for 100 pounds, more then enough for the winter. Way cheaper than electric heat and the ash makes a fine grit for the walkways when it snows… ]]]
I can see “bootleg coal” becoming available in the future, literally a “black market”.
“Smoke police” out sniffing smokestacks for violators. Severe penalties and fines for burning coal as “injuring the planet”. Anyone inventing a smokeless/clean coal burner for the home should do well. No sarcasm here. I’m already looking for the nearest coal supply for California.
Here you go, the solution that will give you reliable power even as the government shutsdown the grid, and without a drop of imported oil nor a breeze of imported gas. It runs on wood, or cellulosic trash. You know, old phone books, empty fast food wrappers, copies of last years Govt Budget (good for weeks on end)…
http://www.gekgasifier.com/gasification-store/gasifier-genset-skids/
Makes 10 kW to 20 kW of power and at reasonable rates, too.
They also have DIY plans for folks wanting a bit less cost and willing to assemble some yourself:
http://www.gekgasifier.com/wood-gasifier-plans/
So say goodby to all that centrally planned outage, and hello to energy independence, with reliable power as long as you have neighbors tossing out the trash!
ferd berple says:
March 5, 2011 at 6:06 pm (Edit)
“A petrol pump with a 5G/min flow rate is equivalent to ~11MW”
About the same as 11 large windmills.
Not exactly. An average large windmill, based on real UK experience, generates power less than 20% of the time. Therefore, to get the 11 Mwatts power from 11 large windmills, you have to build more than 55 large 1 MegWatt windmills. And all the overhead 200,000 volt power transmission lines between them. And all the high volt/200,000 volt transmission transformers to connect all of those 55 large windmills, each windmill requiring some 1km x 1 km field all by itself to avoid turbulence and lessened efficiency. And then place all those windmills in several different weather systems (ie, different countries) so at least 20% have a chance of getting the right amount of wind at the right time – not too high (they shut off) and not too low (they shut off.)
Then you still have to build an 11 MWatt conventional power plant to serve as a backup for the 55 windmills that are not producing power regardless of the the backups previously bought and paid for.
Poptech says:
March 5, 2011 at 5:56 pm
hro001, “Now, I could be mistaken (although in this instance I doubt that I am) but the opposite of “constant” is “intermittent” – a word which is not inconsistent with “not permanently available”. ”
That is my point, he is not quoted as using either word (constant or intermittent) let alone ‘permanent’. That is IMO a gross distortion of what he said and not helpful to the debate. I did not hear him state that there would be times of the day or year when you would have no electricity available or “intermittent power” like a third world nation rather that the “smart grid” will adjust rates based on total power availability vs total demand.
That statement is – deliberately and completely – completely false. He is specifically and explicitly saying that continuously available electricity CANNOT be assumed to be reliably produced in the UK in the future – BECAUSE of his environmental and emotional beliefs. NOT because of ANY engineering or economical reason.
Simply because of HIS decisions of environmental policies which are based on HIS belief-system of CAGW propaganda.
Poptech says:
March 5, 2011 at 7:43 am
What he says is,
“The grid’s going to be a very different system in 2020 2030. We keep thinking about we want it to be there and provide power when we need it. It’s going to be a much smarter system then, were going to have to change our own behaviour and consume it when it’s available and available cheaply.”
That does not mean you will not have permanently available electricity (no power at all). Nor does it have anything to do with having unlimited power as you don’t even have that now. Any grid can be overloaded. What he could simply mean is the rates will fluctuate automatically based on the grid’s load. So you can use all you want during peak times but it is going to be much more expensive. The expense of course would be increased dramatically if it only came from renewables which is I believe what he is getting at for a 2020, 2030 scenario. This will naturally make people drastically change their behavior to save money. That is a much different interpretation than the government deciding to arbitrarily shut your power off for “green” reasons.
To put the problem in terms you (might be able to) understand. I run a small or medium size business in the UK. My profit is 5%. If I lose 4 percent on every sale I make for 3 months, I must close – because I cannot pay my (first!) my taxes, my workers, my suppliers, and my bills (much less myself and my family. One of my bills is electricity.
Now, WHEN am I going to get electricity next year and how much am I going to pay for it? Be specific please, because I HAVE TO print my catalog for next year’s prices, and if I am wrong I will be shut down.
Oh. While you are at it, when will this power be available? I have to schedule my workers, you see, and it costs more to get people working on a swing shift or night shift – when apparently power won’t be available either! – just to do the same work as they could have done on day shift when the mails and phone contacts and delivery vehicles and banks and all the other usual “services” are actually available. What about all those workers who can’t work variable nights and weekends at randomly scheduled times?
Do you want me to fire them? Or can I charge them to your bank account when they are not working productively for me because their power was suddenly too expensive to make a even a 3 percent profit on their machine on Monday afternoon, Wednesday morning, and Thursday afternoon? Friday morning’s productivity was pretty good though – we actually made a 6 percent profit. For 3 hours. Then I lost all that money on Friday afternoon trying to finish the parts I started to make on Friday morning.
Oh. And all of Tuesday’s production spoiled when the power went out for two hours and the heaters and refrigerators turned off. Had to spend another 6 hours emptying the lines and cleaning the tanks of decaying product so we could restart on Wednesday with a salable product.
racookpe1978 says (March 5, 2011 at 8:13 pm): “Now, WHEN am I going to get electricity next year and how much am I going to pay for it?”
I think the government is telling you that if you need reliable power, you’ll have to provide it yourself while of course complying with all government regulations (though strangely, the gov is admitting it can’t do both; maybe you’ll have more luck).
Either that or they’re telling you to move your business to a place with reliable power, like China or India. 🙂
E.M.Smith says (March 5, 2011 at 7:10 pm): “Here you go, the solution that will give you reliable power even as the government shutsdown the grid, and without a drop of imported oil nor a breeze of imported gas. It runs on wood, or cellulosic trash.”
Thanks for the link. Not sure how practical it is, but the mere existence of such a turnkey system is encouraging. For marketing purposes, though, I’d change the name from “Gasifier Experimenters Kit” to something like “Mr. Gasifier”.
Or not. 🙂
racookpe1978, “That statement is – deliberately and completely – completely false. He is specifically and explicitly saying that continuously available electricity CANNOT be assumed to be reliably produced in the UK in the future – BECAUSE of his environmental and emotional beliefs. NOT because of ANY engineering or economical reason. ”
He did not explicitly say that at all. Quote him where he says future power will be intermittent and unreliable. And I don’t mean what has already been quoted. Give me his own words.
Smart metering is good for the utility operator. It allows recovery of variable costs and eliminates the meter reader. If it is considered to be green the meter cost can be added to the account fee.
The smart metered customers in Canada have found that conservation is minor. How can you sleep with major appliances running at night? Timers can be used on water and space heaters but the house will be cool and the water cold when you need it most, unless you quit your job. Heavy duty timers probably cost more than they save. Households with teenagers or women will save nothing.
USA now has a surplus of electricity due to de-industrialization and unemployment. This is probably the way of the future. Raise energy and labor cost enough and you can move industry to Asia and reduce overall demand. You will have surplus electrical capacity without building any.
Clive says:
March 4, 2011 at 8:14 pm
Search “electricity” here:
http://dailytelegraph.newspaperdirect.com/screenprint/viewer.aspx
Clive
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Thanks Clive. Searched myself and you are right enough.
Just because one searches and does not find does not mean it’s not there.
Poptech says: March 5, 2011 at 10:52 pm
“He did not explicitly say that at all. Quote him where he says future power will be intermittent and unreliable.”
C’mon now. When you find yourself in a hole, sooner or later you have to stop digging.
It is absolutely obvious (whatever the hell Holliday said or didn’t say) that there is nothing wrong with Willis’s post and that future electricity supply in the UK will be indeed be more intermittent and unreliable than it is today. And indeed, if you are relying more and more on windmills (as we are in the UK), then how could it NOT be more unreliable.
OK, I’m quite happy to agree that developing technology may “manage” demand from appliances such that we don’t have to shiver in the dark too often.
But that’s the bottom line. Without a radical reversal of policy, it is inevitable.
It is also interesting to ponder the following:-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1346193/Police-raid-cannabis-factory-discover-home-guinea-pigs-Simon-Kenny.html
This recounts the sad story of a lady who had a police raid on the garage where she kept “Simon” and “Kenny”, her son’s guinea pigs.
“The officers had been alerted when a police helicopter picked up a hotspot on the roof of Pam’s garage and assumed it was a drug den, when in fact it was a cosy home for her loveable pets.”
Now let’s take this cautionary tale at face value. Let’s agree that it may be a good thing for the police to be vigilantly looking for cannabis farms.
But it is interesting that the police obviously have the capability to fly over your home and check it out with a thermal imaging camera.
Now I wonder what other uses they might put that equipment to?
Any ideas?
Here, when it was called Rhodesia and were under mandatory UN sanctions, we designed and constructed “gas generators”.
We had a range of sizes and they ran on coal . The combustion process was such that the coal outgassed a form of Producer Gas that was then pumped to specially designed burners which were then used to bake bread, say, or potato crisps, or stress relieving ovens for steel fabrication, and so on and so forth. This country has a lot, I mean a lot, of good quality coal.
My point is that no matter what kind of ideologically driven incompetence the state indulges in ordinary people will simply make a better plan and get on with life. Think of the insanity of legalizing alcohol and criminalizing marijuana which is totally state induced. People made marijuana popular because it is a less violently destructive way to separate actuality from reality for a short time and it doesn’t cause societal , marital or parental breakdown in as many instances.
Governments didn’t decide to build power stations, people did. Governments got involved in oh so many ways because of it’s cash streams. In the UK Oil, Gas and coal provide a huge income to the exchequer , they think wind will do the same but it won’t.
Here almost everybody has a generator now because of the incompetence of our Government Power Monopoly. They tried to monopolize liquid fuel supply and distribution too but when that fell over independent businesses took over and so it has remained so our generators are useful as our backup plan.
So already ordinary people have got around government incompetence and carried on living. You will do the same.
Roddy Campbell says:
March 4 at 12:15 PM
“I tried for a while to find out exactly what Holliday said, rather than just what The Telegraph turned it into. I wouldn’t comment without seeing it all. I couldn’t find it”
The BBC allows you to ‘listen again’ to certain interviews, but only for 7 days after they were first broadcast. The Steve Halliday interview was on March 1st at 8.46 AM and can be heard on the BBC site at
Steve Halliday Interview
The Chief Executive makes his famous remarks at the end of the interview after he is asked what will happen if the wind doesn’t blow and the wind mills don’t provide enough power. He says that “The grid is going to be a very different system in 2020/2030. We keep thinking about we want it to be there and provide power when we need it. It’s going to be a much ‘smarter’ system then, we are going to have to change our own behaviour and consume it when it’s available and available cheaply..”
Holliday is not talking about blackouts and brownouts. The intent is to build a ‘smartgrid’, where low-urgency tasks such as routine clothes washing and water heating automatically switch on when energy is cheaper and more available, such as when wind farms are online.
It’s nothing particularly new, we already have a coarse version where you can buy tarrifs with a cheaper night rate, to encourage people to use electricity “off peak”.
Poptech says:
March 5, 2011 at 5:56 pm
hro001, “Now, I could be mistaken (although in this instance I doubt that I am) but the opposite of “constant” is “intermittent” – a word which is not inconsistent with “not permanently available”. ”
That is my point, he is not quoted as using either word (constant or intermittent) let alone ‘permanent’. That is IMO a gross distortion of what he said [….]
=======
How can it possibly be a “gross distortion”?! He distinctly said:
The indisputable inference of “when it’s available” is that there will be times when it will not be available
Ergo, it will be intermittent (or “not permanently available” … not a great choice, but usually writers will try not to use the same key word/phrase more than once, particularly in a short article).
Poptech, you marched in here, guns blazing – without doing any homework – declaring that the article was “fake” (presumably because you couldn’t find it online). I may have missed the comment in which you apologized for this unwarranted declaration.
More importantly, though, I don’t understand why you have such a bee in your bonnet about this particular article – or why you are persisting in your attempts to diminish the very clear implications of Holliday’s very own words.
For those who believe the article was faked, please see update above.
Re racookpe1978
Naturally there will be no compensation for loss of power, especially not consequential losses. Businesses have already been warned by Ofgem that their interruptable power contracts are going to mean more interruptions. But no problem, businesses can just buy much more expensive assured supply contracts. Assuming they can afford to do that, and stay in business.
This new toy from the Department of Entropy and Climate Circuses makes government thinking clear-
http://my2050.decc.gov.uk/
Two sliders helpfully preset to allow you to manage demand, one is Manufacturing Growth, the other Home Temperature. Cut manufacturing to 1/3rd of present and we ‘solve’ our CO2 problems, but destroy the economy in the process. Set the slider to 25% and it assumes we’ll reduce shipping of goods via better IT. I must have missed the RFC explaining transport of manufactured goods via the web. Perhaps DECC thinks ‘IT’ means everyone using laptops, so have batteries and a degree of built in UPS. Or they’re just utterly bonkers.
Some of the problems will probably surface in 2012 though. The UK decided to hold the Olympics, which is a big energy user. It decided to hold it in London’s East End, which used to be a big energy user. Datacentres there were told that for the duration of the event, they’d lose power. Given traffic management during the games, fuel deliveries for stand-by generators also could not be assured. It might be embarassing to see fuel tankers queing to try and keep our hi-tec City of London’s lights on after all. Several decided to relocate instead, or close. Costs of datacentres and services have been rocketing thanks to rising energy costs. If the future of the UK’s economy is going to be based on IT, why would businesses set up in the UK where energy costs are high and energy security is low?
Oddly enough, much of my work over the last few years has been designing networks for customers moving away from the UK. Very little for businesses moving to, or expanding here.
I was looking after a patient on a ventilator once, in Australia, and the power company needed to shed power. They evenly shared the power cuts to different areas. Including the hospital. Lucky I was next to the bed when they cut our power off, and we had torches. We saved her by switching to hand bagging. I now live in Indonesia, and I can tell you, lack of power kills poor people. If the English are PLANNING this for there future, there Elite must really hate the poor. This is genocide.
What about surgery? Gee, we would have finished your open-heart operation but the wind stopped blowing. Go figure.
Whatever was meant, if you have to re-schedule, by implication there is insufficient power. Simples!
DaveE.
softestpawn says:
The intent is to build a ‘smartgrid’, where low-urgency tasks such as routine clothes washing and water heating automatically switch on when energy is cheaper and more available, such as when wind farms are online.
It’s downright magical, isn’t it, how – even in spite of the record of experience with wind farms as proven abject failures on their own in many ways and in need of conventional backup anyway, etc. – simply wishing it will work still makes it so? And how, the more wishful it is, the more it is true, just because it is “possible” – on the strength of a kind of equal and opposite “Precautionary Principle” which otherwise always leads to the Apocalypse because it is possible?
Well, softestpawn, you first! It seems you even think you are perfectly fit for it. Unless I missed your sarcasim.
Because the reality of the “smart grid” now as stated is that it will make a lot of things mere people = the Proletariat associate with their current “standard of living” start to disappear; in turn making their “low-urgency tasks”….again as defined by the Post Normal Peoples’ Elitist “quality” of perfection which is always attached to themselves solely by their own wishful self-annointment and then their self-assertion of the same thing, such that, finally, “I say it, therefore, it is true”….making the Proletariat’s “low-urgency tasks” progressively more urgent and lowering their standard of living.
Not to mention the decrease of their/our freedoms, rights, and economic liberty, resulting from “we the proles” being under the control of the State.
There’s really no end to this process for the Proletariat and the Bourgeoise – if there really is any distinction between the two in practice – except their complete enslavement or death, unless they stop it politically or nonviolently before it’s too late, or revolt just as the Communists say they should, against the Oppressor Masters they always say they are here to save the world from, but which the Communists themselves strangely always come to eventually embody whenever they get control, as a perfection of their own materialistic physical principle of “history as class warfare”, the Master-Slave Society, which some of them and their “usefuls” probably thought they were going to magically escape. Because it was “possible”?
Gary Hladik says:
March 5, 2011 at 9:05 pm
“racookpe1978 says (March 5, 2011 at 8:13 pm): “Now, WHEN am I going to get electricity next year and how much am I going to pay for it?”
I think the government is telling you that if you need reliable power, you’ll have to provide it yourself while of course complying with all government regulations (though strangely, the gov is admitting it can’t do both; maybe you’ll have more luck).
=====================
No! Government will maintain total monopoly over power. Individual’s generating their own power will be outlawed.
“Either that or they’re telling you to move your business to a place with reliable power, like China or India. :-)”
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Government want manufacturing to move abroad, as it helps the the UK reach its co2 reduction commitments.
Look! The solution for generating electricity during low/no wind periods is to draw on the Strategic Wind Reserve. Granted it will need to be replenished later but, there are many periods of excess wind or, so my wife says.
JPeden says:
March 5, 2011 at 5:51 pm
eadler says:
Use of washers, driers, and charging electric cars will cost less if it is done off peak.
Attn., eadlers of the world, since we know you only want to “help” save the world and humanity, after a fashion alleged by one who says he is “partners with God” to therefore be perhaps somewhat like “making the rough places plane”, some important feedback that you urgently need to know has just arrived via Shirley McClain and Joan Baez’s Channelling Network, concerning the responses of both Gaia and Allah to your, the U.K’s, and Vermont’s apparently somewhat feckless attempts to engineer Social Justice’s promised low cost, perfectly Equalized, Flat Lined Utopia. …..
Steady there Dr Peden. There is no need to get so heated up. The smart grid is about technology that will reduce the cost of electricity to everybody.
REPLY: And unicorns will poop rainbows. Eadler, as usual is delusional. The price of electricity will continue to rise, smart grids, dumb grids, green grids, whatever aren’t going to help that. With all the carbon taxes that Eadler and his ilk believe in, electricity prices will easily double in the next 10 years. I call bullshit on Eadler, and yes I AM worked up because my electricity “green” bill in California is horrendous. There’s the promise, but the lie shows up in the mail once a month. Walk in my shoes, then you’ll have perspective. Go haunt some other blog with your delusions. – Anthony
At the end of this day, it pitifully comes down to “Labor Party Science” that fails to address the issues or to even address a future in an insightful way.
May God have mercy on the souls who will suffer from the ignorance in the UK.
PG&E’s small business customers will be facing dynamic pricing soon.
“After November 2011, the current “flat rate” for electricity will no longer be available to business customers who have had Smart Meters for 12 months. Instead, the price will vary by time of day, and will be nearly five times higher in certain “critical peak” periods, when electricity usage is at its highest, than in “off-peak” periods. Under the new rate structure, small business customers will have to choose among five rate options. Those failing to make an affirmative choice will be “defaulted” to an option that will cause far more variability in their summer bills than they now experience under the current “flat” rates. In 2007, when the CPUC was considering dynamic pricing, DRA had opposed making dynamic pricing the default rate structure, preferring instead that customers have the choice to “opt into” this new rate design. Despite DRA’s objections, the Commission adopted default dynamic pricing for all non-residential customers. Customers will still have the option to “opt out” to a less complex time varying rate, but they will no longer have a flat rate option.”
http://www.dra.ca.gov/DRA/News/News+Releases/100225_pge.htm
We have seen this coming for some time. It is because our rulers are Quislings obeying dictats from the EU. I have installed my 12 KVA standby generator. I have also installed a 4KW PV solar array. Not to save us from CAGW but to cash in on the stupid government subsidies!
G’day from Australia!
Yes the world is really going backwards and we have our share of nuts down here that’s for sure!..I mean,I thought science and technology was supposed to ADVANCE society…not the other way around.It’s approaching time whereby we have to not only take to the streets and whinge but go to the politicians and route the bastards..flush ’em out like a fox from blackberries!!..
Fabian Socialists and other heathen are running the show and here in Oz we have an ardent Fabian Socialist ratbag,held to account by a zombie-looking ‘Green’…who just happens to have the surname of Brown.He’s gay and also trying to push gay marriage onto us also,but that’s another issue.
eadler:
The smart grid is about technology that will reduce the cost of electricity to everybody.
Right, dear eadlers of the world, if you can’t get it, voila, you won’t have to pay for it! – “cost” problem solved by the Ministry of Electric Justice’s “smart grid”, “a model for future Sustainability!” Oh oh, except as per the Steaming
IdiocyBrilliance of Obamacare’s Commerce Clause argument where even if, and when, you don’t buy it or can’t buy it for whatever reason, you are by means of a new definition of “commerce”, which now doesn’t even try to say what is not “commerce”, still engaging in “commerce”; and therefore you have to buy it if the Government says so, even if there isn’t enough of it there for everyone to buy – via various techniques and forces producing scarcity and rationing – by sending money to the IRS.Social Justice [including your “right” to healthcare, which already existed before Obamacare due to the law regarding Emergency Room services and was in fact payed for “Nationally” by anyone who had Ins. coverage or could pay something, noting that a lot of people and entities were also willingly providing a certain per cent of free care] = the right of the Central Government to redistribute and ration potentially everything; which then reduces the supply of whatever is redistributed or rationed since there is eventually almost no incentive for anyone to produce it, that is, if it is only going to be appropriated/”stripped of their backs” by the Central Government and given out “equally” to other people, that is, after the Gov’t takes takes its “healthy” cut, essentiallly as another Parasite upon the Producers, or eventually upon anyone who has anything left to take.
Instead of wealth creation, Social Justice = wealth confiscation and destruction of wealth, fbo the Central Government or the Party.
Attn., eadlers of the world, Communism never works except for its SlaveMasters – which is apparently why you eadlers like it? Or do you really believe in the possibility of a Utopia, a Heaven on Earth?
Which will drive the population out of the UK the fastest? The imminent end of the current interglacial? Or fanatical, genocidal KHMER VERT environmentalism?
I see every cow fart, wind farm, cold fission/fusion, biomass, kitchen waste, energy specialist has now found the topic. Along with the usual energy distribution experts in electric transportation across international borders, the Americas, Canada, EU etc. Then there are the amateur economists telling everyone how less of a product will not only make every one safer, more comfortable, but richer.
I have an idea. Sell your nonsense to Zimbabwe. The former bread basket of Africa. It will bring in a million.
“JPeden says:
March 6, 2011 at 6:02 pm”
That’s true however, consumers will still be obliged to pay their connection fees regardless if there is any supply. Using Lagos, Nigeia as an example, people who have “supply” connected pay connection fees however, there is no, regular, supply so “consumers” have to rely on individual petrol generators alog with all the associates noice and air pollution.
I worry when Holliday talks about investing 200+ billion pounds (see here). Does Great Britain even have enough incentive to offer for that?
Thank you, Atomic Hairdryer, for mentioning the 2012 Olympics. Let be bowdlerize my first reaction as “Oh, brother”.
In ten year’s time, our children will not know what snow, sorry, I mean electricity is.
Can Green Sand send another, wider scan of the actual newspaper? ie. Wide enough to include Mr Holliday’s full face rather than just his left ear?
Mooloo says:
March 4, 2011 at 8:08 pm
Increasingly people do have smart appliances (quite cheap to add in these days of fancy electronics) and it is sheer laziness which prevents some (some) rescheduling.
The kind of “smart appliances” ould have to be remotely controllable by the power company. No devices with such interfaces exist now. Besides it wouldn’t be sufficient that some percentage of the households be equipped with them. ALL households would have to, old appliances would have to be thrown out. Very economical and “sustainable”.
Now I’m picking that most people on this list are for free markets and free enterprise. In which case they should be for differential pricing according to supply and demand. However, many people go all cry-baby when free markets don’t suit them. They want socialised services – electricity at one price day and night.
I’m not, I’m for a socialised power grid. But above all technology has to adapt to human’s needs. If humans have to adapt their lifestyle to the shortcomings of a technology, when better alternatives exist, something is very wrong. That translates to: Electricity has to be available at all times at the same price, and it better be cheap.
If they chose not to buy “smart” appliances, it is not the fault of the electricity suppliers or the grid.
If the power companies decide to introduce a system that requires certain appliances when they never did before, it surely is their fault. They’re shifting the burden of managing electricity demands from themselves onto the consumers. Surely it’s their task, not ours.
JLawson says:
March 4, 2011 at 11:21 am
come to the US. Bring the Top Gear blokes with you.
I don’t think Jeremy Clarkson would want to.
Phillip Bratby says:
March 5, 2011 at 7:56 am
It could get worse in the UK if we follow the German susidies: From http://thegwpf.org/international-news/2586-eu-energy-commissioner-warns-of-de-industrialization.html we have
Unfortunately Oettinger is right in the quote you cite, but I can’t help showing you this. In the first bit in German he says “English will be the working language. Everyone has to speak and understand English in their jobs.” Enjoy 🙂
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWB5oyIjSF0&w=480&h=390%5D
Three and a half words that turn “Save the planet!” into “Drill, baby, drill!”
Mommy, I’m cold.
Oh for the days when we would dream of treking thorugh the stars and going where no one has gone before. Now, it seems like the flea on the tail of the dog is wagging the entire creature. This is so backwards that I cannot even fathom it. In an age where computers are ubiquitous and rely on constant power generation, where industrial sites can suffer days of downtime due to a power blip lasting less than a second, and hospitals require high levels of constant electricity to care for and monitor patients, how can this answer be even dreamed of, much less be presented by a minister of the British government?
PJ O’Rouke once said, ‘Everyone wants to save the world. But no one wants to help mom wash the dishes.”
I might add that that these new climate saviors have a problem with mom washing dishes -at least with hot waters, which was warmed by fossile fuels.
“Americans have started to draw the line and resoundingly voted in a congress with there wherewithall and madate to bring sanity into the energy debate. ”
Not really. Two years after Americans decided all the country’s problems were caused by Republicans, they decided things weren’t changing and that all the country’s problems were caused by Democrats. It’s likely to swing the other way in the next election cycle, or at least end in impasse again as this last one did (Republicans don’t control Congress, just one House.)
” ALL households would have to, old appliances would have to be thrown out. Very economical and “sustainable”.”
What we’ve been told in the U.S., and this comes from power companies which tend to be privately-owned here, is that we’re either going to have to reduce our usage, or see our rates jacked up substantially. We just don’t have the capacity to sustain current growth and power plants can’t be built fast enough to keep up with demand.
Another part of the UK’s problem lies with the stifling bureaucracy, insufferable planning conditions and cotton-wool bound health and safety rules.
Everyone claims to want ‘green power’ but so long as its not in their back-yard. Even those supposed saviours, wind turbines, get their planning applications bounced over 80% of the time. Then if you connect a few solar panels into your electricity supply without it being fitted by an Approved Installer, your house insurance is automatically invalidated.
It really is driving the people to drink (check the figures for UK alcohol consumption, we lead the world) and most of our womenfolk over the age of 18 are on anti-depressants. The UK really is fcuked and everyone in their heart of hearts knows it.
PatK says:
March 7, 2011 at 1:20 am
“Can Green Sand send another, wider scan of the actual newspaper? ie. Wide enough to include Mr Holliday’s full face rather than just his left ear?”
Excellent sir!
David says:
March 5, 2011 at 7:49 am
eadler – Murdoch does not own The Telegraph.
Chris Booker and James Delingpole both work for The Telegraph – and are about the only journos who routinely and vociferously air their skeptical views on CAGW.
I stand corrected, but actually Murdoch does own an Australian paper, The Daily Telegraph which is published in Sidney. I guess I confused the UK Telegraph with the Australian one.
Yes, I was thinking of Delingpole and Booker when I saw the distorted story on the proposed new UK electricity grid.
Well at least the environmentalists will be happy. Socialism sure is a wonderful system!
Of course, it is the Brits choice if they want to continue their descent into a third world country. Or they could vote UKIP.
Apologies if this has already been posted, but here is the link to the original interview, in audio, with Steve Holiday, head of the UK National Grid on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme 1st March 2011:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9410000/9410485.stm
Here is a link to that days programme schedule, which shows the interview aired at 8:46AM GMT:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9410000/9410170.stm
Do you know why the right to bare arms was put in our Constitution? It’s not so we can hunt or protect ourselves against bad guys. It was put in place to ensure that if the government, their government were to become tyrannical, the People would have a way to rectifying the problem and reinstall true government. They have almost totally disarmed the British people, and it’s a fight to keep what we have on this side of the pond.
I think I’ve found a solution:
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2011/03/08/dear-england-power-to-you/
Do you know why the right to bare arms was put in our Constitution?
————————————————————–
I thought it was so that Michelle Obama could wear sleeveless tops. 🙂
eadler said:
I stand corrected, but actually Murdoch does own an Australian paper, The Daily Telegraph which is published in Sidney.
————————————————–
That would be Sydney. Your reputation for accuracy remains untarnished.
I have a name for the eco-loonies proposing this BS. I call them “Dung Agers”. They want us to heat our homes with cow flop and move our goods with horse-drawn carts over roads paved with dung.
It sounds to me as though the British people need to think about the lessons learned from the American Revolution, the India’s break from England, and many more. When government fails to have the best interest of its citizens’ in mind, it is time for the people to take back their consent to be governed in such a manner. (I’m not advocating violence. But, the powers that make ill-advised decisions need to be challenged by the populous and challenged often.)
Good Luck to all “across the pond” from the USA.
(And yes, I do know that we (USA) have our own issues to work on also.)
Todd;
Challenged by the populous what? The populous populus? How populous does the populus have to be?
😉
In response to a comment made about shale gas, that is the scam as it takes more energy to get the gas than the energy gained from the amount of gas extracted, therefore it is pointless, it also harms the environment and involves using fresh water which we are running out of. The most viable alternative energies are tidal, wind and solar. Our government really want to be investing in these and forget about oil which worldwide is running out BIG style, global oil production reached it’s peak in 2006, and that’s from the IEA if you don’t believe me!! We need to get involved with transition initiatives, our communities and be as self sustainable as possible. (e.g growing as much of our own food as possible) Trust me!!
Fro;
trust you? Not if you said the sun would rise in the East. What a load of nonsense.
The world is 20 years from running out of oil, and always has been, and always will be.
And frac gas is superabundant world-wide. There is no energy crisis.
Wow…
An amazing amount of ignorance shown by many of the comments above.
I suggest that before you all become experts on energy – that you do some research first ? And then when you make bold statements – back that up by listing your source.
I won’t even bother to put forward my opinion as someone who’s worked in the UK energy industry for 20 years….
wow says:
March 13, 2011 at 11:19 am (Edit)
Won’t bother to put forward your opinion? Get real, my friend, so far you’ve put forth nothing but your own opinions. Your post is 100% opinion.
No statement of what you disagree with.
No statement of what you agree with.
No numbers.
You call passionately for citations, but you don’t provide the tiniest shred of evidence for any of your claims. You call us “ignorant”, but provide nothing to show that you are more than a random internet troll.
So far, 100% opinion. No facts. Just wind.
Don’t get me wrong, wow, you may indeed have the inside track. You may actually have the numbers. You may be able to point out where I’ve made egregious errors. Heck, you may even have worked in the UK energy industry for 20 years as you claim, I don’t know. And that’s the point. I don’t know.
Because from out here, what you look like is an unpleasant blowhard with an ego so big it has its own area code, who is hiding behind an alias to make vague but ugly accusations, without a scrap of fact or evidence to support your overweening unpleasantness.
If you have something of substance to say, you are more than welcome to say it. I’d be more than happy to hear what a 20 UK energy guy has to say, I’ve spent a good chunk of my life in the energy field myself. That’s what this blog is about.
But if all you have to offer are accusations and general unpleasantness, your silence would be appreciated.
Your choice …
w.
Fro says:
March 12, 2011 at 3:09 pm
Sometimes commenters really amaze me. Companies in the US and elsewhere are currently selling gas from shale, more and more every day. There’s immense interest in it in places like Israel, which has no conventional energy resources but evidently has shale gas. European gas companies are gearing up, the New York Times reports:
Meanwhile, Fro is inhabiting a parallel universe where there’s no money to be made in shale gas at all. It’s all just a giant scam, because it takes more energy to get the shale gas out than you get from the shale gas. I don’t know how China and the CEO of Total fit into the scam in his parallel Earth, but it’s a scam, and if you don’t believe it, he says, “Trust me.”
I don’t get it. I know this kind of willful blindness is out there, but every once in a while it just jumps up and smacks me in the face. What holds up such an unsupportable belief as that?
Fro, you are discussing the EROEI, or the energy return on energy invested. I can assure you that the shale gas companies are very aware of that number, they watch it very closely. Extraction costs (of which the energy costs contained in the EROEI are only a part) determine not only whether a field is worth tapping, but more importantly, at what point to stop extracting the resource.
And if it takes two barrels of oil to get a barrel of oil out of the ground, guess what? They’re not dumb. They don’t do it. If it takes the energy in two cubic metres of shale gas to extract only one cubic metre of shale gas, they shut the operation down.
So no, I don’t trust you, Fro. You live in a parallel universe, one where companies worldwide are rushing to get in on a deal so they can lose money by burning two cubic metres of shale gas in order to extract one cubic metre of shale gas.
w.
johanna says:
March 8, 2011 at 5:13 pm
I didn’t spray my coffee over the keyboard, but I did snort some up my nose, I was laughing so hard. I do love the well turned phrase.
Thanks, johanna, made my afternoon.
w.
Brian H,
OK, apparently “the populous” was an incorrect use of the word. A better choice would have been “the people” or “the electorate”.
Thanks for the correction,
Todd 🙂
Todd;
You just had an extra “o”. Populus = the people. Populous = well populated.
Which is what I meant by “populous populus”. That’s lotsa people!