My Friend Billy

(Note – I saved this for the weekend, when people who might read this would likely be more relaxed. This is not the usual fare for WUWT, but it is something that is revealing, enlightening, entertaining, and educational, while at the same time sad and sunny all at once. If you want science, skip this article. If you want a perspective on life, read on  – Anthony)

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

Warning: Viewer discretion advised. This post discusses adult themes and content. Oh, not the usual adult themes we get on TV, like D: Suggestive Dialogue or V: Violence. Instead, it is a discussion of the following well-known wanted criminal:

qf88585_createdFigure 1. The one with many names … the Pale Rider. The Grim Reaper. The Angel Of Death. Thanatos. Azrael. Cronus.

I’ve been thinking a lot about death lately. The gorgeous ex-fiancee is a Family Nurse Practitioner, and she and I have been taking care of her 86-year-old father in his final illness. “Billy”, that’s what the rest of the guys in the band always called him, so that’s what I called him when I came to be friends and play music with him over the past four years. He was a jazz drummer his whole life, and a very good one. Having had the honor of playing music with him myself, I can testify that he was a very skillful, fun, and inventive percussionist.  But when he came out of the hospital back in February, he hung up his sticks and said that was it. His time with music was over. I knew then that his days were short. So we’ve been giving him all the love and support possible in the face of his approaching death.

Here in the developed world, we tend to distance ourselves from death. But in the third world, it is ever-present. The first dead man I ever saw who wasn’t rouged, perfumed, and embalmed was on a side street in Trench Town, a dirt-poor, less than fragrant, and more than turbulent suburb of Kingston, Jamaica. It was a strange scene.

Trench Town is not a good place to be at night. Even in the middle of a hot afternoon, it’s a place where you feel a need to take an occasional look over your shoulder. I was walking down the street, the only melanin-deficient guy in sight. (I hear that the new PC term is “melanin-challenged”, by the way, to avoid hurting people’s feelings by making them feel deficient … but then I’ve never been politically correct.)

In any case, halfway down the block, a man was lying in the gutter. At first I thought he was just drunk and sleeping it off, until I got nearer, and I saw he was lying in the proverbial pool of blood. I remember particularly the sound of the flies. I was reminded of when I used to kill and butcher cows and sheep and other animals out in the farmers’ fields for a living, and how fast the flies would appear. Seeing that man lying dead in a cloud of flies, in the middle of just another average city afternoon, was a shock to me. The cities I was accustomed to back then didn’t feature much in the way of dead bodies in the gutter. I was beyond surprise.

But the bigger shock was the reaction of the people in the street. By and large it was ho, hum, another day in the life, step over his corpse and keep going, Many people looked once and didn’t give him a second glance. The public level of concern seemed to be on the order of “It’s the tropics, mon, cover him up ‘fore he stinks”.

I realized then that in such places down at the bottom of the economic ladder, the death of a stranger is no big deal. Oh, I don’t mean that people don’t mourn or grieve their loved ones the way it happens in the industrialized countries. That’s the same everywhere. But in countries where death is more common, countries where most families have lost a child, countries where malaria or some other tropical fever takes away the young and otherwise healthy, everyone lives in much closer proximity and familiarity with death and the dead. Like the song says about a tropical murder, 

Nobody talks about it no more, 

though it happened just a week ago. 

But people get by and people get high,

in the tropics, they come, and they go.

A decade later in the Solomon Islands, my good friend Willie died after a long wasting illness. Willie was a Solomon Islander who was loved by all, and in those fractious, jealous, contentious islands, that says a lot. There was no funeral home in the Solomons then, may not be one now. So family and friends do everything. Willie died in “Number 9”, which is rumored to be a hospital. In reality it is a collection of buildings left over from World War II that vaguely resembles a hospital. From the curbside, that is. If you don’t focus too closely.

I went there as soon as I heard Willie had died. Up close, it’s an ancient, sad collection of sticky hot rooms baking in the sun, most without even fans to cool the patients. I was already sweating before I got inside.

When I went in the room, Willie’s wife was there, weeping. I joined her. We spoke for a bit. She had brought his clothes, she said, to dress him. She wept. I wept. She made no move to dress him. We sweated. We waited. Solomon Islanders are good at that.

After a while, I asked if she wanted help dressing him. Oh, yes, she said. I stood up, and walked over and lifted the sheet off his legs … ah, the legs that used to run had been replaced by bone and parchment. I lifted them up one by one. They were almost weightless. She and I slid them into his pants. Dressing a dead man proved to be much harder than I thought. Perhaps unsurprisingly, their level of cooperation is quite low. I had the crazy urge to apologize to him for moving his legs. Finally the pants were on. After that it was easier. With his pants on, I could take off the sheet entirely. We put his shirt on. I’d been very close with him for two years. I’d never seen either the pants or the shirt before. My sense was that they were “Solomons new”, meaning bought from a Chinese store which imports used clothing by the bale. Willie looked good in his new outfit. I hugged his wife, and left her to her sorrow. It was the first time I had ever touched a dead body.

Tropical death plays no favorites. My friend Turk was in his forties, a local airline pilot. He went into Number 9 to have a doctor look at his hemorrhoids, and never came out … you learn to watch your step very carefully on small tropical islands, and in particular, do your best to never step into a “hospital”.

I was back in the US when my father died. The gorgeous ex-fiancee was his nurse in his final days. He refused an operation for his bladder cancer. Said he wouldn’t leave my beloved stepmother broke, and besides, he’d done everything he wanted to do. He’d been a well-known architect, made money, built the house he lived in, his kids all loved him, things were getting painful, there wasn’t much left to keep him here. Enough, he said. He didn’t want to go to the hospital, he wanted to die at home.

Sadly, bladder cancer is a painful way to die. When the pain got bad, he asked me to see if I could get some pills that he could take to end his life. He was in chronic intermittent but intense pain. I did not want to, but I had no choice, and I set out to do that. I would have said that I could have found the pills, because I’ve always knows lots of people with strange proclivities. But for whatever reason, I was unable to find any downers. I looked for reds, or any kind of barbiturates. I asked my friends in low places and I never got more than a couple of pills.

And so each time I saw my Dad again, and the pain was even worse, I had to confess that I had failed him. It was gut-wrenching, worse each time. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone.

The night that he died, the gorgeous ex-fiancee and I went to his house. Again I had to tell him that I hadn’t found the pills … dear friends, he smiled and said what he’d said the other times, that it was OK. It broke my heart. I hugged him and turned away so he couldn’t see my face.

That night I found out how thin the line is between tragedy and comedy. I had brought my guitar, because I knew Dad always loved to hear any of his kids play music. I sat on his bed. He was moaning as the waves of pain rolled over him. I sang for him the songs of his childhood that I knew he loved. I sang him the songs of my childhood that he used to sing to me, as he shifted restlessly and groaned in pain. Finally I was weeping too hard to go on singing, but I kept playing the guitar for a bit. And then I broke down entirely, and the music stopped. I couldn’t play another chord.

He opened his eyes, and he smiled his smile that went so deep, and he said “Oh please, don’t stop playing … I swear I’m not moaning on account of your music!”

We both broke up laughing. I didn’t know I could laugh and weep at the same time. I don’t know how he could laugh and moan at the same time. He fell asleep with without saying another word as I played and wept. What can you do with a man like that?

I left at around ten that night and went home. The gorgeous ex-fiancee said she thought she should spend the night with him. I got up at four thirty and went out commercial fishing, trolling for salmon. Around noon, my dear nurse called on the ship’s radio. I knew what the message was before I got to the microphone. I was glad I was on the ocean. I kept fishing, it calmed and soothed me. I was fishing with my long-time shipmate and fishing partner. He understood my silence.

My mom’s death, on the other hand, surprised everyone. When she knew she was dying of lung cancer, she wrote and asked me to come see her. I was in the Solomon Islands at the time, but that’s not a request you can ignore. I flew to Sedona, Arizona, where she was parking the RV she’d lived in for four years by herself, traveling all around the US. She was 69 at the time. I found out something strange. The main reason she wanted to see me was to find out whether I took my dad’s side of the ancient argument and whether, like him, I blamed her regarding their divorce thirty-four years earlier … go figure. She wanted absolution from me, or at least to know that I didn’t blame her for what happened, thirty plus years in the past.

I told her the truth, that I didn’t have a dog in their fight. I said that I used to think that one or the other of them had done wrong, and to be sure they had each caused the other one a lot of grief and sorrow, they had hurt each other deeply. But by then, I was old enough to know that both of them were just fools whose intentions were good, and that they had both striven in their own way to make it work. The fact that they couldn’t make it work was not important, I knew they’d both given it their best shot. She liked that, and she sent me on my way.

About a week later, she took a fistful of pills and was found dead in the morning. I was glad she found the pills somewhere, lung cancer’s not a good way to go. I was even gladder that she hadn’t asked me to find them for her. The family believed for years that I’d given her the pills because I’d visited just before her death, and they knew I’d tried to find pills for my dad. But I hadn’t given her anything but love and support, as best as I knew how, and at the end of the day no one ever knew where she got the pills.

Later, when we were living again in Fiji, my daughter was about 12. One night, the matriarch of a Fijian family I worked with died. Her daughter, grand-daughter, and son-in-law all worked alongside me for the same company. I took my daughter to the wake, which was the very next day. Without embalmers, tropical funerals are never delayed long. It was late, there were only a few people still there. The night was warm and enfolding. In back of the house was a wooden table. It was spread with a nice cloth. The matriarch lay in state on the table. The family welcomed us. We gave them our best wishes and condolences. I had told my daughter I wanted her to touch the dead woman. She caressed her shoulder. The mom saw it and smiled. I didn’t want my child to be the stranger to death that I had been. Touching a dead person makes it all real.

There’s an old tale about these matters, one that the Fijians understood without ever knowing the story. A man goes to a sage and asks him to write down a good luck charm. The sage gets out his inkstone and brush, grinds some ink, and on a crisp new sheet of rice paper he writes something down, folds it up and gives it to the man. The man opens it and reads it. In exquisite calligraphic script it says:

Grandfather dies.

Father dies.

Son dies.

The man can’t believe it. “What have you done! Did my enemies pay you? This is a curse on my entire family, it’s not a good luck charm!”

“Ah, no, that’s the best good luck charm I can give you,” the sage calmly replied. “If it happens in any other order, that is very bad luck …”

The first person I saw actually die was my sister Kristen. Well, half-sister, but us kids all decided among us early on that half- and step- were out, we were all brothers and sisters. She was about 50 at the time. She’d gone to the hospital to get some tests for intestinal discomfort, walked in the door, and passed out in the reception area. So they checked her, and after testing they decided that they had to do an immediate exploratory operation to see what was wrong. Her mother, who was our beloved stepmother Virginia, and a bunch of us brothers and sisters and I all went immediately to the hospital, to be there when she woke up from the operation.

When the operation was over around noon, the surgeon called us all in. She started talking, and she only got partway through the explanation of the operation before she started crying. She said that a 6-foot section of my sister’s intestines had died, and that was too much of a loss for her to live. She said medicine was powerless. She said when they saw what it was and how bad it was, they immediately closed up and got out to prevent further harm. They did not know why part of her had died, but there was no human power that could save her. She had maybe 24 hours. That was it.

We were stunned. What now, we said. The doctor said my sister was out of the OR and that she would be waking up soon. She’d likely stay awake for maybe an hour or two, perhaps a few more. But then the pain would start, and so she would be on a morphine drip. After that, she’d be awake some but she would mostly sleep. I felt so bad for the doctor. She had all of her knowledge and all of her skills and tools, and here she was, totally powerless. I could see she was shaken, frustrated and sad.

So we were all there when Kristen woke up. Of course, she was glad and surprised to see us. She remembered passing out in the lobby. But she was still kind of groggy. So as she became more alert we mostly made small talk. We told he she’d had an operation. We hadn’t though ahead about who would tell her the bad news, we didn’t have a plan or anything, the usual family deal. Finally she asked what the doctor had said about the outcome of the operation, what they had found … silence.

After a long pause, one of my brothers stepped in. But he kind of danced around the subject. He is a lovely man and he did his best, but he described it in all kinds of generalities, words like “preparing for the end” and “short time” and “so sorry”, and “inevitable”, but nothing concrete. I could see he wasn’t getting through, my sister wasn’t following him.

Finally I couldn’t stand her confusion. I said something like “Kristen, the doctors operated, but they can’t help you. They said that part of your intestines died, and there is nothing that they can do. They say that you will die within a day.”

Silence.

“Can’t be”, she said after a bit of thought. “I feel fine.” She wouldn’t believe me. I repeated that she was certain to die within twenty-four hours, by far the saddest and most final news I’ve ever had to deliver in my life. She looked in my eyes. She didn’t like what she saw. She turned to Virginia. “Mom,” she said, “that’s not true, is it?”

Her mother had to do then what must assuredly be one of the most difficult things that a human being can do. She had to tell her darling, her joy, her only daughter that she had only a day to live. Ah, my friends, I can only fervently wish that no one would ever, ever in their life have to say what she said to her daughter then—Oh, sweetheart, I’m so sorry. The doctors say you only have a day to live. It’s true. 

I couldn’t bear watching Virginia say it, how could she bear the saying of it herself?

Silence …

It can’t be true, my sister finally replied.

Yes, it is true, my stepmother said.

It is not true!, said Kristen.

Yes, it is true!

IS NOT!

IS TOO!

They voices had gradually raised until they were almost shouting, and all of us realized at about the same instant that it was such a prototypical grade-school playground level argument, and we all laughed at the absurdity. When death is present in the room, our feelings simply overflow, and tragedy and comedy get all confused and mixed up.

We talked for a while after that. Fortunately none of us had much that was left unsaid with Kristen, we were always pretty honest with each other. She’d been a good kid and was a good woman, and we told her so. So we talked, and even laughed some more. But all too soon, the pain from the operation started hitting her. Pretty soon, I couldn’t take it any more, my heart wouldn’t bear it. In the afternoon, I left her with her mom and the others and went home.

But then in the early evening, my brother called. He said everyone had gone home but him. He said Virginia couldn’t stop weeping, she was beside herself, and another sister had taken her home. He said he had to leave, he needed to do some things and then go to work the next day.

Well, there was no way she was going to die alone. That was not on the list of options. So once again I drove the solitary miles and miles back to the hospital. When I got there she was sleeping. She woke once, but didn’t say anything. She saw me, and it seemed to comfort her, or perhaps that was just my wishful thinking. Death was in the room. I stayed well to the side. Time slowed. I held her hand, and moistened her lips with ice water with the little pink lollipop sponges they use for that, and told her that she’d been a good sister to me and a good friend, and she had been, too. Around two in the morning, her breathing slowed, and then she slipped away.

I found out then that there is an odd kind of peace in being alone in a room with someone who has just died. After all the anguish and the turbulent emotions, the succeeding absolutely inalterable finality of her death obviated the need for any further struggle on anyone’s part. There was nothing more she could do. There was nothing more I could do for her. She was beyond my reach. Death had left the room, and with it, the need for wariness. I sat in the room with her for a while, and wept, and turned off my mind. The silence was so deep it was almost subsonic. If that silence of death had a color, it would be the darkest ebon, the deepest Elvis velvet black. I wrapped the silence around me and listened to my own breath, the only sound in the room.

Then after a while, I pressed the call button, and the doctor came and pronounced her dead.

===========

The main thing that I have learned in all of my curious interactions with the dead and the dying has been to take Death as my advisor. I have learned that Death gives me better advice than anyone. When it comes to sage wisdom, I found that Death beats all the books and advice columnists and psychologists and grief counselors and what all the authorities say. Whenever I’m all in a fluster about how bad things are at the moment, how everything’s going pear-shaped and I just can’t take it, at that time (if I have my wits about me) I’ll I look over my left shoulder and ask Death what he thinks about it all.

By this point, I know what he’ll say. He’ll say no, Willis, don’t worry about this penny ante booshwa. That’s nothing, he tells me … I haven’t touched you yet …

All of us, myself assuredly included, tend to live as though we are immortal. We talk of wasting time as if we had it to waste, when it is our most precious possession and we have so little of it. Taking Death as my advisor cuts through that fatal illusion. He reminds me that my days are numbered, that I need to live every day to the fullest. He tells me to work and play and laugh and produce and treat each hour as though it were my last. He reminds me that I am at war, and I need to acknowledge that this might be my ultimate battle. And as such, it is imperative that I forth to that battle in a warrior’s spirit of true abandon, holding nothing back.

Which brings me back to where I started this roundabout tale, back to William Alfred Schneider, my dear friend Billy, fellow musician, and father-in-law. I finally got to know him after they moved out here. The man was a jazz legend. He got his first gig playing drums in a St. Louis strip joint when he was a teenager in the 1940’s, and never looked back. He was the drummer for Barbara Streisand at the Crystal Palace in St. Louis in the fifties, and was a fixture in the famed “Gaslight Square”. He played with Liberace. He said when “Lee”, as he called Liberace, went on a minimum no-frills tour, he took only  two people—Billy, and Liberace’s hairdresser … with Billy smiling his silly grin and slightly emphasizing the word “hairdresser”. Unusually for a man born in the 1920’s, he didn’t care in the slightest what someone did in bed, as long as they could play good music and put on an entertaining show. But he was always ahead of his time.

Billy played with Frank Sinatra, and with Dave Brubeck. He toured with Roger Williams. In the 1950’s Billy was the drummer for “The Nervous Set”, starring the recently-deceased Larry Hagman as the lead singer. It was the first Broadway musical with a jazz quartet instead of an orchestra, Kenny Burrell was the guitarist. Among other innovations of the musical, Billy played the tympani along with his normal jazz drum kit, to fill out the sound. You can hear Billy’s understated musical style on the drums here. The song is a masterpiece of late 1950’s angst, with lyrics that were hilarious in their own way then and now. The musical both celebrated and mocked the dawn of the “Beat Generation”.  Jack Kerouac came to a performance. He was drunk, and tried to force his way backstage, they wouldn’t let him in. Billy’s stories went on and on …

He went legally blind a couple of decades ago, macular degeneration. But he was doing OK, still playing music, until his wife had a stroke. She was half-paralyzed and bedridden after that, which was hard on him, and he stopped playing. About four years ago, my gorgeous ex-fiancee talked them into moving to California from St. Louis so we could take care of them. She found a nursing home for her mom, and we found him a mobile home to buy in a nearby mobile home park … he laughed about that. He said it proved he wasn’t trailer trash, he lived in a mobile home. He visited his wife in the nursing home almost every single day until her death a couple of years ago. She was the envy of the place to have a husband like that, all the poor souls in the nursing home who got one or two visits a year were jealous of her. I think he was atoning for previous misdeeds, the man was a jazz musician, and by all accounts a tom cat … but atone he assuredly did, and impeccably. When she needed him, really needed him, he was by her side every day. The only way we could keep him from going was to tell him we’d go ourselves, and we did, week after week, to give him some days off. He paid off all of his debts to his wife with true devotion.

Right up to the end his mind never weakened, and curiously, he was one of the few people with whom I could discuss my climate research. You have to understand that I’m a long ways out of the loop compared to many climate researchers. They typically have some circle of peers around them with whom they can discuss their ideas about the climate—other researchers, professors, graduate students, mentors, people from other departments and fields, they work and publish in teams and groups and can bounce ideas off each other.

I do all of my research alone. Around here, I have Billy and one other guy to talk to, neither one a climate scientist but both interested intelligent layman, and that’s it. So it was always a pleasure to read my work to him. He had me read each piece out loud, and then asked good questions. And we always had the music.

But his kidneys finally betrayed him. His last public appearance was in January, a couple of half-hour sets. He was as good as ever. Almost blind and nearly deaf even with his hearing aids, he never missed a beat. Then he was hospitalized, and they had to re-inflate him with a carload of IV fluids and such. His other daughter came out from Tennessee, she was a huge help during and after his hospitalization. But then, of course, she had to go back to work. She left with our profound thanks.

When Billy came out of the hospital, he told me he wasn’t going to play any more music. I said, you mean not play any more music in public? No, he said, he was done with music … my heart sank. He’d said the same thing when his wife had her stroke, and he didn’t play any music at all for a couple of years back then. But when he moved to California and still wasn’t playing, I knew that if I could get him to play again, he’d live much longer. So I just kept bugging him to play … and finally he gave in. We started to play a bit. I put my keyboard, amplifier, bass, microphone and guitar at his place so he could rock out anytime I or one of his friends was there. But he was kind of half-hearted about it, like he hadn’t made up his mind to get back into it.

And then he met some local musicians, and one of them told him that an old drum student of Billy’s from 50 years ago named George Marsh was now a music professor at the local university. Well, that put the cat among the pigeons. Just the rumor of George Marsh did what I couldn’t do. Billy immediately started seriously practicing, hours every day—Billy Schneider wasn’t going to have his student show up and find his old teacher unable to play the drums, oh, no, that wasn’t on. And so by the time George Marsh (who is now in his seventies and still teaching) made it over to his house, Billy was seriously playing his drums again and had his old chops back. And for the next four years, he played a lot, both with me and with various combinations of other musician friends in his house, as well as playing various gigs again in public as he’d done for so long. He played with a floating jazz group at a local restaurant, you’ve never seen a man so happy as when the band clicked.

Here’s a funny story. Billy met a friend of mine who’s up to his ears in Haitian drumming. So Billy started trading lessons with him, showing him jazz drumming in exchange for being taught something about Haitian drumming. Here’s the crazy part. My friend was taught Haitian drumming by a man named Kendrick. Kendrick was a very good drummer with sticks as well, in part because at the start of his drumming career he’d once spent six months on the waiting list to become for several years a student of George Marsh … who was, of course, taught drums by Billy himself, and so the circle was complete.

So when Billy announced he was hanging up his sticks, my heart grieved, I knew his time was short … not good news. Curiously, he told me that in some ways it was a great relief, because the music had always been a burden for him. I understood what he meant. I’m a musician, but not like him. I never practiced, even when I was making my living playing music. I just played and played and played, Oh, sometimes I’d play one song over and over for three hours, but I never called it practice. You’re doing the same thing, but from a very different point of view of music. I hate to practice, and I love to play, despite the fact that they’re the same. In my opinion, they call it “playing music” for a reason—because it’s not ever supposed to be work or practice. My aim is to play music like children play their games, for the simple joy of the sound and the passion of creating something stirring and moving and lovely.

But Billy was old-school. For him, there was practice, and there was performing. Billy had always driven himself to practice, a minimum of three hours a day until the day he quit. It was why he was so good. And now, he said, he was just tired to the bone. He didn’t want to practice like that any more … and if he couldn’t practice three hours a day, he wouldn’t play at all.

I told him that was OK by me. I told him he’d played music for people all his life, and all they’d had to do was sit back and listen. I said that now I could return the favor. I’d play, and all he had to do was listen. He laughed, he liked that plan. We joked about him being my captive audience. And so when I visited, I played for him the tunes that he and I had played together, over the following weeks, as he lay back in his easy chair. We talked about everything, including his impending death.

His health got worse and worse. The doctors said that he was a candidate for dialysis. But like my father, he refused treatment. His music was done, he said, and he’d had enough of being old and blind and deaf and most of all, he was just so tired. The only medical treatment he said he wanted was a morphine drip if things got bad.

For a while he could still take care of himself. We begged him to come live with us, but he was fiercely independent. His proud warrior’s spirit refused to let him to leave his mobile home even after he began to fail. So about two weeks ago, the gorgeous ex-fiancee and I moved in with him in shifts, with her there one night and me there the next. He was mostly sleeping. His voice grew less clear, with gaps in the words. I was reminded of times in the past when some friend and I were talking on our fishing boat radios, and my friend was in a boat going over the horizon. As the boat moved farther away, my friend’s words became indistinct, with static and gaps like Billy’s words, and both of us saying, Do you copy, do you read me, over? … I could see Billy was frustrated that his body wouldn’t obey him. It wasn’t that his mind couldn’t form the words. It was just that he was sailing over the horizon, and slowly getting too far away to send back final communications to those left behind on the shore …

When the pain got bad, his loving, ever-patient nurse, my dear wife, got him a prescription for morphine … and we dripped it into his mouth, just a bit from time to time, like he’d wanted. I think the fear of the pain was worse than the pain itself, and the morphine eased both his body and his mind.

On Friday night, he was nearing the end. I went down to his place, and my dear lady went home to feed the cat and get some sleep. It was proper. She had been at my father’s bedside when he died, and on that night long ago I had gone home. So it was right she should go home now. After she left, I put on some of Billy’s recordings from back in the day, the soundtrack from “The Nervous Set”, recordings he’d done with other musicians. I held his hand, and stroked his head. I sang to him. I told him he’d been a good husband and father, although neither were strictly true. But like my own mom and dad, he’d done his best with the poor interpersonal tools that were to hand in the 40’s and 50’s, and that’s all I could ask.

When I could feel his death approaching, I made myself small and turned sideways. I’m very careful when Death is in the room. First off, if you look at that joker’s eye-sockets, you can tell right away that his vision isn’t of the finest. Plus, his record isn’t that sterling either. It’s because he grew up outdoors, that’s my theory at least, where there’s plenty of room to swing a scythe. As a result, too often he’s been known to misunderestimate the distances involved inside a house, so his scythe bumps the refrigerator on the backswing or something, and as a result the blade hits the wrong man, and boom—Dick Nixon lives for another 117 years, and some good guy ends up dying young.

And although these days I’m mostly out of danger in that regard, being neither that young nor that good, I did not want to get mistaken for Billy right about then.

But Death found the right man, in my opinion at least, and probably in Billy’s opinion as well, and he died around nine o’clock. His breath went out, and it never came back. I leaned over and kissed his cooling forehead. His other daughter later said that for years, he’d had an evening gig, and the second set always started at 9:20 … that made sense. Much as he would have liked to stay and talk to me, he had to leave, the boys were headed back to the bandstand, Barbara Striesand was already on stage, the next set was about to start …

So I turned off his old recordings, and once again, I found myself sitting alone in a silent room with someone I’d just watched die. Again I wept. And again I took solace in the profundity of the silence, and in the soothing fact that there was nothing pressing any more, no urgency, nothing he needed to do, nothing I could do for him.

Then, when the time of silence was over, I went to do the necessary tasks. But of course, as I have learned in my life, death often brings both tragedy and farce, and this was no exception. Earlier in the day I’d called the mortuary, to see what the procedure was for them to pick up his body. The Mortuary Lady said they couldn’t pick him up without a Death Certificate. OK, I said, how do I get one of those? Oh, she said, you can’t do it, his doctor has to sign it.

Mmmm … but what if his doctor is out of town? Because, you know, he is out of town. Until Monday. And Billy will likely die before then.

Well, she said, after he dies you should call the County Coroner. They will send a doctor over to sign the certificate. They always handle that. It’s not a problem

So I did … but being a skeptical fellow, I did it right then, I didn’t wait until afterwords. I told the nice Coroner Lady the situation. She said oh, no, we don’t handle dead people at home in bed. You should call the Sheriff’s Department.  They always handle that. It’s not a problem.

So I did, right then. But the nice Sheriff Lady said they didn’t deal with dead people at home in bed. She said just call the emergency number 9-1-1. They always handle that. It’s not a problem … I guess not many people die at home with their family any more. Eventually my doctor said, just call the local police. They’ll know what to do. So after I’d sat in the silence in his bedroom for a while, I did that very thing.

However, the nice Police Lady said that unfortunately, his passing had to be classified as an “Unattended Death”, all capitalized and everything, because there was no doctor present. Again I was reminded of the difference between the first and the third world. What we call “an Unattended Death” they call “a death”—the presence of a doctor is a rarity, and absolutely not a necessity. In any case, the nice Police Lady said that she was sorry, but since his doctor was out of town, they’d have to send a detective out to investigate the Unattended Death for signs of foul play … plus of course the Emergency Medical Technician had to come out to to make sure he wasn’t still alive.

The mind works strangely at such times. I was tempted to say that it was clear that he wasn’t pining for the fjords, and that I took “didn’t breathe for the last fifteen minutes” as kind of a clue to his general state of animation, but I forbore … I could see that I was now just a pawn in the bureaucratic machinery. I had entered the zone where it didn’t matter what I said or did.

The detective turned out to be a pleasant young man. Clearly, however, he was hoping that this would turn out to be the crime of the century, that I’d just snuffed Howard Hughes or something. He came in, and first thing, we had to fill out some paperwork. I figured he’d want to see the body first, but no, it’s the government. Paperwork first, last, and in between, it’s the way we render modern death sterile and unthreatening.

While we were doing that, the EMT wagon arrived. I’d asked the nice Police Lady if they could leave the lights and sirens off to avoid disturbing the neighbors, and they did so. The EMT came in and went in the bedroom to see the body. He came out and told us that Billy was really most sincerely dead. He had a whole other set of paperwork, which I signed, and he gave his condolences and left. But of course he couldn’t sign the Death Certificate, so I’m not sure what his purpose was.

After the paperwork was done, the Detective said he wanted to see the “scene”. He did manage not to call it a “crime scene”. We went into the bedroom. He took out his camera and said he was sorry, but by law he had to take pictures for the record. I said I understood. He asked me to take the covers off of Billy’s body. I could see that he was disappointed to find out that it was just an ancient dead man weighing about 80 pounds, call it 35 kg, with pipe stem legs and sunken eyes, and not a crime victim of any kind. So the Detective took his pictures. And knowing that it made absolutely no sense, I put the covers back on Billy and tucked them in around him because it was night time, and I didn’t want him to be cold. We are truly bizarre creatures, we humans …

Then the Detective asked if I had a measuring tape. He said he had to measure the distance of the body from the walls of the room for his sketch of the scene, but he didn’t have a tape … I got the tape measure. Somewhere in there, it seems the gears in my mind had stripped entirely, and I found myself wandering around the bedroom,  numbly measuring how far it was from the walls to Billy’s body while the detective wrote down the numbers … life is endlessly strange. Somewhere in the bowels of the local Police Department there is an official “Unaccompanied Death” form with a sketch on it showing that William A. Schneider aged 86 died approximately nine feet from the south bedroom wall of his mobile home, and about seven feet from the east bedroom wall …

When all that was done, all the measurements and pictures taken, all the papers signed, I asked the Detective if now the mortuary folks could pick him up.

The Detective said no, first I had to get the Death Certificate …

I wanted to pound my head against the wall, but I was afraid I wouldn’t feel a thing if I did. It was that kind of evening. So I told the Detective the whole story, about the Mortuary Lady, and the County Coroner Lady, and the Sheriff Lady, and the Police Lady, and my Doctor’s advice, and he took pity on me. He called his boss, and she called someone she knew at the Coroners Office. In about five minues she called him back and said OK, Billy could be moved, the doctor could sign off when he returned on Monday.

So the Detective told me the body could go, and he gave his condolences. He was sincere and kind and professional throughout, and I thanked him for that and said I knew he had to do what he had done, and I was glad it was him that had done it. When he left I went back inside and called the mortuary.

Soon, the folks from the mortuary arrived. They brought a gurney. The mobile home was tight quarters. They had to stand the gurney on end to get it around the corners to his bedroom. I couldn’t figure out how they would get him out, there was nowhere near enough room. They wrapped him in a white shroud and put him on the gurney. Then they started lashing him on, with three webbed belts. I left the bedroom and sat down in the living room to wait.

When they came out of the bedroom, I found out that the gurney folded down, and it had wheels on one end, so they could use it like a hand truck. They came breezing out of the bedroom, wheeling him on what looked just like a hand truck, wrapped in white in a standing position. Their sudden appearance was so bizarre, they were moving fairly fast, or perhaps I was moving fairly slow, but in any case they looked for all the world like museum curators on the Discovery Channel merrily rolling one of the mummies to a new display location …

I must confess, I broke out laughing at sudden appearance of Billy disguised as a mummy on wheels in some museum. The attendants looked at me strangely, but I suppose they’d seen all kinds of grief, so they just keep wheeling the mummy on out to the van. Yeah, I know, I’m likely going to hell for laughing right then, but I knew that Billy would have seen the humor in it. He was a rascal and a gentleman and a rogue, crabby and thoughtlessly hard on the women in his family who loved him nonetheless, a wonderful musician and a bad family man who somehow managed to successfully raise a couple great girls to productive adulthood, and always someone with a deep sense of humor and a profound enjoyment of the ridiculous, inane, bizarre things of this world. He’d have laughed at the mummy image. My old shipmate, the one I was fishing with when I heard of my father’s passing thirty years ago, remarked on Billy’s death, “We don’t grieve for him. We grieve for our own loss, that he’s no longer around to laugh with us.”

Anyhow, that’s why my mind has been revisiting the topic of death lately. I have no great insights gained from all of this, except to keep listening to Death’s excellent advice, and to keep the gas pedal firmly pressed to the floor. Oh, and what George Marsh told me. He said he’d been meaning to get over to see Billy again, he’d been invited, but this and that had gotten in the way, time went by, and now Billy was dead … he said he wasn’t ever going to let that happen again if he could help it.

After Billy’s death, I went for some long walks on the cliffs overlooking the ocean with my gorgeous ex-fiancee, and we let the immensity of the water and the insistent wind and the endless waves wash away the sorrow and the struggle of the last few months. We both fished commercially together, we both are children of the waves. We saw a whale spouting far out in the vasty deeps—there is no better balm for the heart than untamed wildness.

I give my good lady immense props for her role in all of this. She has been the captain of our good ship since the first day, I was just the crew. And having skippered my share of boats, I assure you that crewman is by far the easier job. Crewmen sleep well at night, while the skipper tosses and turns and considers tomorrow. Billy was not always nice or kind to her or her sister, but they both bore up under it without complaint to him, and simply kept supporting him and her mother in every way they wanted and needed, from before the time they moved out here until their deaths. I told that good woman that she was the perfect daughter, that she did everything they needed and more, and that she had done it with style and with a warm and open heart. She has my profound admiration and undying thanks for her unwavering support of both of our parents in their extremity.

My conclusion from all of this? Hold your family and friends close, remember to taste the strawberries, play your own music whatever that might mean to you, and do what you love … because the night is never far away.

Best regards, and thanks for coming on the journey. Everyone grieves differently. This time around, writing seems to be part of how I do it. Tonight, the midnight moon is nearly full, with a single band of altostratus on one side of the sky and a hint of summer in the air. The coyotes are mumbling to each other on the far ridge, the saw-whet owl is sharpening his lethal blade. The intoxicating smell of the lemon tree in the yard lies thick on the dark air. The moonlit forest around my house is alive with unseen eyes, predator and prey alike, hidden death on all sides for rabbits and mice … stay well, dear friends, life is far too short.

w.

William A. “Billy” Schneider

Jazz drummer extraordinaire 

1928-2014

He lived and died surrounded by his music

and loved by his family and friends.

Sleep well, my dear companion.

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bushbunny
April 18, 2014 9:34 pm

Seriously you should enter that in a short story competition. It was quite revealing. Having lost two sons, and my mother and father, All within 5 years of one another’ death is final and a loved one’s death remains a hole in your heart for ever.

Bob Johnston
April 18, 2014 10:08 pm

Hi Willis – that was a very moving story, your writing abilities and life experiences never cease to amaze me.
In regards to your sister, while I’m sure the doctors did everything they could as there was very little time left, I’d like to add that it’s little known in the medical profession that intestinal transplants are actually done nowadays. In my travels across the internet I came across the blog of fellow whose medical story is simply incredible. Nearly dead from a botched colonoscopy and seemingly inconceivable medical malpractice, he was saved only because his wife discovered intestinal transplants actually existed (his doctors were clueless). I hate to promote someone else’s blog on WUWT but the story is amazing. The things I’ve learned from his posts make me wonder if the medical profession isn’t very different from climatology.
http://roarofwolverine.com/wolverine

Hoser
April 18, 2014 10:25 pm

Thank you. My father was born in 1928, and I know we don’t have forever. I completely agree with and hope for the proper order. I guess you’re the Carlos Castaneda of the Sea. As the notes of Ripple are playing again in my mind, I’ll just say, fare ye well.

Admin
April 18, 2014 10:26 pm

A few months ago, I almost died.
One Friday I took my little girl swimming, I felt what I thought was mild indigestion. By the afternoon it had grown into a nasty pain in my stomach, so I saw a doctor. The quack sent me home, he diagnosed a strained muscle.
By the next morning, after a very bad night, my pain had grown unbearable. Worse, my waterworks had shut down – so I knew something was very wrong. My wife called an ambulance.
I had emergency surgery that evening, after a day fighting to control my temperature. I had been walking around for a week with a ruptured appendix and Peritonitis.
After I woke up from Surgery, the surgeon gave me the bad news – I was still probably going to die. He had washed litres of puss out of my stomach, from a very widespread infection – but he couldn’t get it all.
Yet somehow I found a reason to hope. For at least 5 days, I was walking around with my insides rotting away, driving thousands of miles, moving heavy boxes (we were moving house at the time) – yet my immune system was doing such a good job of containing the infection, I didn’t even know I was ill. It was only on the 6th day that my body started to lose the battle.
And I was blindly, utterly determined to live. My wife and daughter depended on me. This was not my time to die.
Somehow, whether it was the antibiotics which drenched my system, my abnormally strong immune system, by determination to do everything they told me to do, to help my recovery, no matter how painful, I pulled through, and have now made a complete recovery.
Death is the enemy Willis. There is no quarter with that which makes your loved ones cry. When the reaper finally catches up with me again, he will have another fight on his hands, I will hang on to the last gasp of my strength.

April 18, 2014 10:29 pm

Thanks Willis.

bushbunny
April 18, 2014 10:36 pm

That story on wolverine was horrific. I had a colonoscopy other than finding a vein to put me asleep, it was a painless procedure throughout and afterwards. But was given a paper with warnings if I bled or had problems to come right back. I didn’t like the diet I was given before hand and the stuff I had to drink beforehand although it was flavored. It was cleared and the surgeon told me not to come back for 10 years, I had a bit of diverculitcus. (Sorry spelling). I have never heard of intestinal transplants, but we learn everyday.

Dan Smith
April 18, 2014 10:46 pm

Beautifully written. Thank you for sharing

Dennis Dunton
April 18, 2014 10:48 pm

Willis; Coming from the St. Louis area myself….Just curious if Billy lived in one of the many suburbs, or in St. Louis proper. Most “St. Louis” people don’t live in the city itself. My condolences to you and yours on losing Billy. Guys like him are getting hard to find.

Evan Jones
Editor
April 18, 2014 10:51 pm

Thanks, Willis, as always.
I nursed my father hand and foot for four long years. I was still a kid going in. Afterwards, not so much.
My cousin died less than a year ago. He was the brother I never had, and he had been bunking out in my livingroom for over six years. He was two years younger than me. He suffered a stroke and never fully regained consciousness. For the months he had left, I worked ten hours, then visited him every day after work, sometimes twice a day on weekends. But I was somehow certain he’d get better care if he was seen to be getting a lot of visiting. I would bring the nurses cookies and pies regularly because I figured that couldn’t hurt either. Lori didn’t visit him much. Instead, she served him (well) by keeping me from going to pieces.
I would talk to him and ruffle his hair, sometimes, because physical contact can reach a person, though I am definitely not a touchy-feelly type . One time I showed up and he opened his eyes and looked at me sternly and then put his hand up to his hair, so maybe I was getting through. I was reading Skylark to him, of all things, and we had just gotten to the point where the space pirates had been thwarted, the hostages rescued, the planet saved, but before the wedding scene and the escape of the evil Duquesne, he passed on within an hour of when I last saw him.
Sometimes people are lucky enough to have someone that they can call and say, like the song goes, “Andy, did you hear about this one?” It can be a lonely thing when that happens and there is no one to call.

Janice Moore
April 18, 2014 10:57 pm

Dear Mr. Eschenbach,
Thank you for honoring us with your words about your dearly loved Billy. No one can ever take his place. The ebb tide of grief will flow high and ebb many, many times before it finally rests. Just remember, though, every time grief floods up the beach, it is, overall, flooding a little less far up the beach each time. Eventually, there will be calm. You know this, I know, just a little encouragement from someone who cares (yeah, really).
“The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning,
but the heart of fools in the house of pleasure.”
Ecclesiastes 7:4.
You are wise, Mr. Eschenbach, to listen to Death…… to a point. Death can make a person live wisely, but, Death cannot give you joy. Death cannot give you love. And Death is sometimes a l1ar, gleefully whispering in your ear about the peace it can bring. Death, per se, will not bring peace, for the soul lives on…. somewhere. And Death will not be going along with it to comfort it. Death has no interest in a soul released from the body. At that point, Death washes its hands of the soul.
Most importantly, Death, while wise, cannot give you hope.
Do you realize how COOL it is to KNOW where your soul is going when you die? THAT is peace, man, powerful peace.
For hope, you must listen to Life.
How can one do this?
In case you might be interested in the answer I found to that question,
there is only one Life Who can change despair to hope (and I mean enduring, rock-solid, unshakeable hope), the one who said: “I am the way, the truth, and the life… .” John 14:6.
Of course, that takes faith.
“Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen… .” Hebrews 11:1.
And if you don’t have it, you just don’t have it. No one can gin up faith. But, you CAN be open to receiving it (and you can choose to stubbornly resist it whenever it whispers to your heart).
I have been, though, and will be, praying that you and your family come to have that faith, that hope. So, HOPEFULLY (smile), one day, you WILL have faith and, thus, Hope.
What you DO have, right now,
and will always have,
is your love for Billy
and his love for you.
Memories will start to fade,
but the love will remain — always.
“… these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.”
I. Cor. 13:13.
With heartfelt sympathy…. and prayers,
Janice
P.S. A Christian song (just a heads up so you can skip it if you don’t want to hear that kind of music) that I love and that I HOPE will be an encouragement to your own faith.
“Where There Is Faith” — 4 Him
[ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpJOUboKgV0 ]

April 18, 2014 11:03 pm

A grand farewell and meditation. On Good Friday the thought of death and the possibility of resurrection is not far from my mind.
A bit of luck and Billy will play on.
Thank you for this.

Evan Jones
Editor
April 18, 2014 11:11 pm

Do you realize how COOL it is to KNOW where your soul is going when you die? THAT is peace, man, powerful peace.
I dunno, Janice. Unlike with my beloved climate stations, I have no data on that. What is, is.

Janice Moore
April 18, 2014 11:18 pm

Dear Evan M. Jones,
If I may…
“… what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.” Ii. Corinthians 4:18.
Jesus walked the earth. And he left LOTS of data (in the form of words and actions) for you to analyze.
Your query to resolve: Was he Lord? Liar? or Lunatic? Those are the only 3 possibilities.
(from C. S. Lewis’ book Mere Christianity)
Best wishes in YOUR faith journey!
Janice

April 18, 2014 11:23 pm

Thanks Willis for another story well and lovingly told and beautifully written. My wife and I went through a somewhat similar sequence with her mother about a year and a half ago. Similar may be a bit of a stretch as the only real commonalities were her adamant wish to die in her own home and the morphine soothed final days of her life, which in her case stretched to five days from the point she fell into a terminal coma. Your bit about the death certificate brought back a detail of our story which was both entirely infuriating and yet almost comical. Mom finally passed about a quarter to midnight on Halloween. In the small Iowa town where this occurred the local EMTs must come to pronounce an unattended death. Since the ambulance garage was only a couple of blocks away they arrived in very short order and after what was probably similar paperwork they pronounced her dead. During our discussion with the crew they had asked about the time of her death and my told them 11:45 PM. Although they didn’t officially pronounce her until well after midnight they put that time onto the paperwork. They then volunteered to deliver her body to the local mortuary.
The next day her last Social Security check was direct deposited into her account at the local bank.
As part of the friendly service of the local undertaker he sent copies of the DC to all pertinent authorities, including the SSA. They almost immediately informed the bank that they must return the deposit because the payment was for October and she hadn’t lived through the “entire month”.
I know the odds of something similar happening again are way against, but if you should get caught don’t say you weren’t warned.

John F. Hultquist
April 18, 2014 11:23 pm

Thanks.

stevefitzpatrick
April 18, 2014 11:37 pm

Willis,
Your writing is absolutely fearless.

Evan Jones
Editor
April 18, 2014 11:37 pm

Easy, Willis, easy now.
Please don’t get mad at her. We all have our own ways of dealing with these things, as you have poignantly demonstrated. If we believed what and in the way she does, we might react the same. That’s one of the reasons I tend to excuse the howls of the CAGW believers — if I actually believed what they actually believe, I might be howling, too. Noblesse oblige, you know.

April 18, 2014 11:50 pm

Man, that was beautiful writing. I can barely see the letters as I type.

Oatley
April 18, 2014 11:55 pm

Willis, from now on I am going to refer to you as “R” instead of your “W”…
“Renaissance”

Evan Jones
Editor
April 18, 2014 11:56 pm

A few months ago, I almost died.
Glad you made it through.

John Coleman
April 19, 2014 12:08 am

Willis, my very best to you and your ex-fiancé. I hope to meet you in person in Las Vegas in July.

April 19, 2014 12:10 am

A beautiful telling of a story of life, Willis.
…. but I am sorry you feel you had to reply to Janice in that manner. It somehow spoils it, for me at least, even though I am and always will be an atheist. (I say that with some certainty as any change in that regard will undoubtedly be a symptom of the losing of my mental faculties).
I am sure she meant it as a message of love and care.
We all spend our lives passing on thoughts, ideas, ‘how to’ instructions, solutions, facts about ‘climate change’, etc, etc to others. Sometimes the ideas, or the solutions we pass on are wrong, but not because we intend them to be. It is simply that we think they were meaningful, factual, or we believe that they worked for us at the time.
Peace and love to you, and to Janice. Such is life. And death.

Txomin
April 19, 2014 12:16 am

You write quite well. Thank you for sharing.

Evan Jones
Editor
April 19, 2014 12:17 am

Janice’s actions are just like the unscrupulous morticians trying to upsell some poor family on a much more expensive casket at the time they’re most vulnerable, after their loved one’s death … entire predictable.
But there is one important difference. The mortician goes *ka-ching*. Those like Janice believe that what they are doing is a Good Thing. It isn’t. But the motivations are not as venal.
So I likely should have been ready for her, but I wasn’t, and I tend to bite back … my bad. Hey, I’m a passionate guy, what can I say?
“It”, not “her”, I think. And you do yourself a disservice here. You don’t tend to bite back. You “tend” to be wise, understanding, broadminded, and compassionate. And that ain’t always easy.
I am so sorry for your loss.

April 19, 2014 12:18 am

Eric Worrall says:
April 18, 2014 at 10:26 pm

and

evanmjones says:
April 18, 2014 at 10:51 pm
and this as well, with which I agree
evanmjones says:
April 18, 2014 at 11:11 pm

Thanks.
Willis, loved the “freakin’ bluebird of happiness and cheer” bit.

April 19, 2014 12:27 am

We know how to cure cancer now. All kinds. The secret is that cancer cells have a receptor that induces apoptosis. It is against Federal law to fill those receptors with any material you can grow yourself.
Biochemist Dennis Hill, who cured his stage 4 prostate cancer explains how it works
Look it up.

Matt Collins
April 19, 2014 12:28 am

Well done, Willis. Thank you.

George McFly......I'm your density
April 19, 2014 12:29 am

Lovely story Willis….very honest and refreshing. We all need a reminder from time to time of our humanity and frailty

Norman Woods
April 19, 2014 12:30 am

A mocking scoffer tells stories designed to pull at the heartstrings of anyone reading, then acting like some kind of baboon about a woman’s emotional outburst when she worries about you to her God in her heart.
I thought you were already low rent but I hope I never see another word about you that doesn’t start with the letters rip.
You cretin.

April 19, 2014 12:31 am

But by God, (as they say), she’s not gonna be allowed to stuff Jesus into my story. No way.

I agree.

Perry
April 19, 2014 12:35 am

Willis,
Thank you for writing such a beautiful essay. I am still choking back the tears.
Cordially,
Perry

April 19, 2014 12:39 am

Too bad Robert Cohon was not in your vicinity. He had a knack for opiates.

April 19, 2014 12:41 am

M Simon says:
April 19, 2014 at 12:27 am

As someone who used to be virulently anti-marijuana before May 2008–I removed you as a friend, and I would not allow relatives into my house who used drugs of any kind–I am happy to read accounts about Dennis Hill who killed cancer in his body with cannabis. Jesus, I was a s**t and ignorant. People need to wake up to the medical evidence. Check out Spain’s Dr. Manuel Guzman. And use google with these search terms: =>> marijuana alternet guzman ford NIH 1974

Evan Jones
Editor
April 19, 2014 12:42 am

Norman Woods says:
April 19, 2014 at 12:30 am

Whoah, there. Ramp it back. Uncalled for, particularly under the circumstances.
policycritic says:
April 19, 2014 at 12:31 am
Ah, she isn’t, properly considered — because she can’t. It isn’t “part of the story”, it’s outside of the story, just a comment.
(Thanks for earlier.)

J. Fujita
April 19, 2014 12:44 am

Thanks Willis for the thoughtful anecdotes. I witnessed the quiet passings of both my parents and I’ll always cherish those opportunities as fitting since they were there for the beginning of my life. Your story reminded me of my favorite quote, one which I try to live by. It’s from Paul Bowles…
“Death is always on the way, but the fact that you don’t know when it will arrive seems to take away from the finiteness of life. It’s that terrible precision that we hate so much. But because we don’t know, we get to think of life as an inexhaustible well. Yet everything happens a certain number of times, and a very small number, really. How many more times will you remember a certain afternoon of your childhood, some afternoon that’s so deeply a part of your being that you can’t even conceive of your life without it? Perhaps four or five times more. Perhaps not even. How many more times will you watch the full moon rise? Perhaps twenty. And yet it all seems limitless.”

April 19, 2014 12:44 am

Norman Woods says:
April 19, 2014 at 12:30 am
Low rent is where all the interesting things happen. I wish you a long, dull, boring life.
And just to tweak you some further. I favor the old time religion. If it was good enough for Jesus it is good enough for me. Because we are all Sons of God. Or Sons of B******. I’ll take either. Or both. Depending on what is on offer.

Evan Jones
Editor
April 19, 2014 12:48 am

Thanks, Evan. Again you are correct … but isn’t there a religious saying about people believing they’re doing a good thing?
Oh, yes. And I, in essence, agree. Case in point, the more genuine of the CAGW believers. Like all good intentions. But the mortician dude doesn’t even have those.
The road to hell is indeed paved with good intentions, but let’s not leave out the bad intentions, either.
Getting paid off in converts is one thing. And I agree: Not a Good thing. But then, there’s the fake preacher who collects money, ostensibly to send to the starving kids and then keeps it. That’s more in like with what the mortician does, and I really believe there is a significant difference.
Another case in point: I think the number Norman Woods pulled was considerably worse than anything Janice attempted.
In climate science, what we’re discussing is called “Noble Cause Corruption”.
And in other venues as well. But — as bad as that is — it beats ignoble cause corruption.
Finally, the mortician isn’t trying to twist my work and my words into an argument to sell more of his caskets, as Janice is doing to my work and words in trying to sell more of her religion …
No. But he would if he could!

April 19, 2014 12:49 am

policycritic says:
April 19, 2014 at 12:41 am
Also look up Dr. Christina Sanchez who is a molecular biologist at Compultense University in Madrid Spain.

Evan Jones
Editor
April 19, 2014 1:12 am

Norman Woods says:
April 19, 2014 at 12:30 am

Pay him no mind, Willis. He’s just riffraff. We’ll deal with him ourselves, never fear.

April 19, 2014 1:16 am

Yes. Death does give the best advice. I haven’t played much music since the 80s. But these days Death has whispered in my ears and I’m a designing fool. My hope is one great last design before I get called. It doesn’t seem like soon. But one never knows.
http://spacetimepro.blogspot.com/

Charlie Flindt
April 19, 2014 1:52 am

Willis,
Fantastic writing. What a lovely bittersweet mix.
Sometimes, you know, Death sweeps in calmly and suddenly. I was blessed with my father’s departure.
http://www.fwi.co.uk/articles/19/11/2011/130182/charlie39s-father-leaves-farming-in-peace.htm
Best wishes,
Charlie

Truthseeker
April 19, 2014 1:58 am

Willis, you are absolutely right to be angry at what Janice has done. You do not need to calm down on this matter because even though you have taken us through a powerful and emotional journey. at the end of the day they are just words. It is not as if there are likely to be any physical consequences.

Evan Jones
Editor
April 19, 2014 1:58 am

Evan, I do appreciate your patience with me, and the peaceful tone of your posts.
You merit it. I find myself envisioning some of your writings as I drift off, like one will do with great masterpieces of literature. Every now and then some circumstance triggers the term “premium bride” in my head and I chuckle out loud. You’ll be needing to string all that end to end someday and get yourself a Library of Congress number, you know.
Let me say a bit more about it.
Yes. There we go. Good man.
Only bear in mind that, in the end, she can’t intrude on your story. She is below the fold, as are all the comments. Your story is what it is. It stands alone.
Maybe think about it this way: Your story caused me to tell one of my own. So have some of the others. In one sense that is not so very different than what Janice was trying to do (and, no, I do not approve of her post), but everybody does these things in his own way. And that’s when a writer succeeds best. When he connects, you know.

John R T
April 19, 2014 2:04 am

Thank you,…
for good advice,…
for better writing.
.
.
Janice, thank you. mere, Thanks
John Moore

Hasse
April 19, 2014 2:08 am

I have been in the situations, I know the feelings. Thank you for sharing.

April 19, 2014 2:10 am

Deeply humbled by your eloquent candor, Willis. Peace. And Rspect.

Coldish
April 19, 2014 2:13 am

Thanks, Willis. A science blog is no place for religion.

Jimbo
April 19, 2014 2:16 am

Willis makes a good point about how distanced people in the West are from visual death. It didn’t used to be the case, but when you face it all the time the shock reduces. The other point I want to make is how people in Western cities are distanced from the killing of the animals they eat. Chicken drums, rump steak, fillet of fish etc are animals that have been killed and gutted.
The first dead person I saw was lying in the road after being hit by a van – he was a tramp who was suspected of suffering from mental problems. I saw a baby die of malaria in front of my eyes in hospital. The look and sound of grief from the mother was heart wrenching. I still see the scene as she was dragged away from the corpse by hospital workers. I see people everyday with either polio, leprosy, malaria, unknown illness or just disabled crawling on the ground without a wheelchair. Welcome to the poor, death and suffering.

weathep
April 19, 2014 2:45 am

The story of Joe (not his real name) 1991-2010 19 years, 6 months, 19 days, 20 hours…
Our beautiful son: Joe, was born in June 1991 by emergency ceasarian – he always was obdurate! He walked at 13 months, but could not stand himself up.. we had to teach him how at 19 months because his sister: Susan (name changed), was due to be born.. At two and a half he failed some developmental checks.. he could not climb stairs.. or run.. or clamber.. and was easily tired.. and if he fell, he went over like he had been pole-axed. The contrast to his 12 month old sister was obvious. We had been to the doctor’s a few times, but were dismissed as neurotic parents. After his failure of this developmental check the doctor referred us to a local paediatric clinic. I remember the day we went, we felt a bit fraudulent because Joe seemed stronger than he had been a couple of months before. The doctor took a blood sample and sent us on our way, saying it was unlikely to be much, but the blood sample would prove one way or another.. what we did not know was the doctor had grave suspicions and had a specific blood test taken. He said to make a follow up appointment for 6 weeks hence. The following Monday, we had a ‘phone call from the hospital “About your appointment this Thursday….” What appointment? Why did they want to see us? They would not say.. we went along that Thursday in trepidation.. the appointment was in the Doctors lunch hour… “The blood test has confirmed that Joe has Duchennes Muscular Dystrophy (DMD).. a serious, genetic, muscle wasting condition…” What’s the prognosis? “He’ll get steadily weaker, will stop being able to walk sometime between 7years and 11years and will live maybe 15-18 years…..”
Well, as you can imagine: total devastation. Joe was a bright child – DMD does not affect their academic capabilities (other than the affect of being tired… and eventually not having the strength to hold a pen), he was in the top sets at school. Joe had a quick wit, was polite and was always (well.. mostly) smiling and most people remember him for that. Joe eventually stopped walking on November 13th 2000 he was just about nine and a half. One morning he just could not stand.. it had been coming, we were not surprised. He then got an electric wheelchair from the NHS – not having the strength to propel himself in a manual chair. We moved in 2002 prior to him starting High school at 11. The school he would’ve gone to where we were living was not good academically. The state high school he went to (well all three of them actually), is one of the best in Hampshire, if not the country. He did very well and was happy there.
When he was 14, as is common with boys with DMD, the muscles of his back could no longer support the growth boys go through at that age and he developed scoliosis. Just before his year 10 schooling (ages 14/15) he underwent a spinal fusion operation (that is a long story in it’s own right) where 2 titanium rods are screwed to his vertebrae in an 8 hour operation. He was always in pain due to the fusion, even after it had healed, though he bore it with great fortitude. The operation meant I could no longer just pick him up and put him in his wheelchair, we always had to use a hoist and sling from then on. It was also the end of him feeding himself – though the strength to lift his arm to his mouth was almost gone before the operation anyway. During the following year he was losing weight and no-one knew why. At Easter before his 16th birthday a large infection manifested itself at the base of his spine.. he had to have the spinal fusion removed in a 6 hour operation (or he would have died within weeks). He was in hospital for 7 weeks. We “escaped” from hospital in early May, but still had to administer intra-venous anti-biotics via a central line for a further 3-4 weeks.
So, in the 2 school years he had missed over 1 full term (12 weeks) including all the formal review/revision. He was still bed-ridden when the exams started. The school turned his bedroom into an exam room, and for each exam he had an invigilator and his scribe present – to whom he dictated his answers. He had only been well enough to start revising 3 weeks before the exams started, and was still very tired and weak. The results came out in late August.. he achieved 1 A*, 5 A’s and 2 B’s. As a result of that he was in the local, and some of the national newspapers, interviewed on the local radio and television news! Joe then went onto “Sixth form” college to do his “A” (Advanced) levels – the 2-year pre-university required level of education. Joe took A levels in Classics (Greek & Roman Literature, plays, architecture and society), History and Sociology. Joe wanted to go to university. He was offered a place at a University of London college to read History. Unlike during his GCSE’s he had no time off sick during his time at sixth-form college, even though his scoliosis had returned and he was in constant pain due to that and was, by this time, on medication to control his pain and because of deterioration of his heart – due to DMD. He attained grades A B B and his place was confirmed at university.
Going to university brought a whole host of new situations both for Joe and us. He now had to have 24hour carers employed to look after him at university (as we had always done his personal care), plus a string of other university students employed to take his notes in lectures with him and for them to scribe for him when doing his essays. Academically, he did very well, socially, life was a struggle for him and we spent more time with him (especially Saturdays). Fortunately it was only an hours drive away.. In the early November 2009 in his first year, he got a terrible cold, was unable to breath and was rushed to hospital via emergency ambulance.. – Boys with DMD find it very difficult to cough due to muscle weakness, and therefore chest-colds are very dangerous for them – We rushed up to the local hospital.. we were thinking.. “is this going to be it?”. Joe, fortunately, did not have a bacterial infection, so they let us bring him home.. Where we had to perform vigorous chest physiotherapy for about 3 hours each morning for about a week to loosen and shift the mucus in his lungs… He eventually went back to university after 2 weeks off.. but the illness had left its mark both on his confidence and it had affected his ability to chew, he had developed sever acid reflux and feeding became a problem…
Feeding problems aside, Joe continued and finished his first year at university.. we had a 5 week holiday in the US.. we travelled there and back by the Queen Mary 2 – Joe could not fly since his spinal fusion and then the return of this scoliosis. There were problems with feeding and him feeling nauseous regularly, but it was a good holiday nonetheless. He started his second year at university that September, but the nauseousness was causing him serious problems and various remedies were tried. In early November, he was so upset by it all that he came home, partly because he also had an upset stomach.. Due to the upset stomach he spent over a week in hospital and during this time (I could say a LOT LOT more here!!) he started to get angina pains. After he came out of hospital, we pestered to get him a proper cardiology appointment (another long story).. anyway, after getting Joe’s neuromuscular consultant involved, we managed to get a cardiology appointment with the top local cardiology consultant for roughly the end of November 2010.
The consultant inspected his heart via ecco-cardiagram for 45 minutes! then he had another ECG. Then.. “well.. Joe.. mm basically.. you shouldn’t be here.. your heart is in a very bad state.. I am sorry…” – Can he go back to university? (that may seem like a daft question, but he was feeling a lot better) “ehm no, best give up your university career” – Can we take him on holiday “ehm no, just take him home and make him comfortable…” total and utter devastation. We were not expecting that outcome, if we had thought it a possibility we could’ve prepared him in someway…
I could write a lot about the last 4-5 weeks, there were some ups and downs, some false hopes, but ultimately on Monday 20th December he woke in crisis and pain, the doctor was called and he was put on morphine – though not enough to put him “out of it” if you understand. Though, he knew and we knew, he would not get up again. We had to ask him painful things like: What did he want to do with his savings? What sort of funeral did he want “A nice one.. like grandmas” – does he want to be buried or cremated? Buried.. Various people came to visit over the next 3 days, like people do. Apart from a short period on the Tuesday evening when he asked the doctor, in frustration, if she could do anything to “end it” for him, she said: “no I can’t”, he faced it with great fortitude and stoicism, and typically was still cracking jokes on the Wednesday afternoon when his best friend John came to visit. I hope I have his strength when my time comes. Wednesday evening, crisis again, doctor came, he had a heart attack, struggled for a (long.. very long) few minutes.. and though he had been rambling a bit and not talking sense, he suddenly became focused and clear, looked at his mum (who was closest to him), and then uttered his last 2 sentences: “I am dying.. I love you” then he was gone….. Absolute and utter devastation…
His funeral was 2 weeks later at the local church, over 200 people were there to pay their respects, it was a good send off, the funeral lasted nearly 2 hours, because quite a few people wanted to read out their eulogy of their memories of Joe. His sunny, wise-cracking, up-beat nature, in the face of constant pain, had touched a lot of people over the years.. and although, due to DMD, in his later years he was practically a quadraplegic, he said, in the last few weeks, because he was now attached to his ventilator (which formerly he only used when asleep) a lot of the time to alleviate the angina pains – that he had never really felt disabled until then!!!!! Almost incomprehensible considering his level of disability, but a great testament to his character.

Evan Jones
Editor
April 19, 2014 2:47 am

By the way, I could delete that obnoxious post by Norman Woods. I have that power.
But I prefer to let it stand and let him twist slowly in the wind.

April 19, 2014 2:48 am

Well said Willis, will be forwarding this to everyone in my family…
Simply, WOW

Evan Jones
Editor
April 19, 2014 2:49 am

Well said Willis, will be forwarding this to everyone in my family…
Simply, WOW

Like I say, Willis, it stands alone. Q.E.D.

stan stendera
April 19, 2014 2:53 am

Willis’ eagle soars ever higher. Thank you for this revelation.

stan stendera
April 19, 2014 2:57 am

And thank you , Anthony, for publishing this wonderful essay.

Admin
April 19, 2014 2:59 am

evanmjones I’m glad I pulled through too thanks Evan 🙂

April 19, 2014 3:01 am

M Simon says:
April 19, 2014 at 12:49 am

Thanks. Here’s a video:

April 19, 2014 3:02 am

“The other point I want to make is how people in Western cities are distanced from the killing of the animals they eat. Chicken drums, rump steak, fillet of fish etc are animals that have been killed and gutted.”
In my youth I worked near the killing floor. I used to help gut 2,000 hogs a day. I earned my meat. And I enjoy every last bite. And before that I used to slice and dice chickens for display in my Dad’s butcher case. And of course there was the day (I was 4 or 5) my Dad killed a chicken in the back yard. It got away. And ran around like a chicken with its head cut off. Because it was a chicken with its head cut off. Spurting blood all the way.

Jimbo
April 19, 2014 3:04 am

No onto a lighter note about death. Below is a comedy sketch from a UK TV programme back in the day. Here is a sample.

…………
C: “VOOM”?!? Mate, this bird wouldn’t “voom” if you put four million volts through it! ‘E’s bleedin’ demised!
O: No no! ‘E’s pining!
C: ‘E’s not pinin’! ‘E’s passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! ‘E’s expired and gone to meet ‘is maker!
‘E’s a stiff! Bereft of life, ‘e rests in peace! If you hadn’t nailed ‘im to the perch ‘e’d be pushing up the daisies!
‘Is metabolic processes are now ‘istory! ‘E’s off the twig!
‘E’s kicked the bucket, ‘e’s shuffled off ‘is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin’ choir invisibile!!
THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!
……………..
http://www.davidpbrown.co.uk/jokes/monty-python-parrot.html

http://youtu.be/4vuW6tQ0218

Admin
April 19, 2014 3:07 am

Willis, I think you are being a bit harsh with Janice. Its your grief, but I don’t think Janice meant harm – from her perspective she was trying to help. The bible and her religious belief obviously brings her a lot of comfort, and I think she was looking to extend that comfort to you.
The Mortician in your example is acting from brutal self interest. I see why you drew that parallel, but I think there are some important differences between what Janice did, and what the Mortician did.
Perhaps I can explain best by sharing part of my life experience with religion.
I’ve been an atheist all my life, but about half my family are evangelical Christians – Jehova’s Witnesses. For a while I was confused about what they said, then I learned how to pick holes in what they said, taking malicious pleasure in quoting some of the darker passages from the bible. Then I finally chilled out and realised that what they were doing was an expression of love. They did love me, they showed it in so many ways – its just they wanted to make sure I joined them in a heaven I didn’t believe existed. We learned to agree to disagree – to love each other, but to understand and accept that there was a facet of our lives which would never be in harmony.

Twobob
April 19, 2014 3:28 am

Thank you Sir,
For sharing this.
I have laugh’t and cried too.
We all have a loosing hand to play.

Editor
April 19, 2014 3:35 am

Beautiful, many thanks, Willis.

davideisenstadt
April 19, 2014 4:08 am

willis….you can really write.
thanks.

stevefitzpatrick
April 19, 2014 4:18 am

Eric Worrall,
Humm… Many who wish to force upon everyone their personal beliefs, whether those be religious or political (eg Malthusian Eco-loons), for certain honestly and completely believe they are doing good. They are not. What they are doing is insulting the intelligence of all those they purport to help; it is pure and simple arrogance. They should just make decisions for themselves and leave the rest of us to do the same. The parallel you attempt to draw with your immediate family is a false one; you and your family have a joint interest in working it out. Willis does not need to be lectured to by a stranger, and IMO, he is justified to tell her to pound sand… I would do the same.

April 19, 2014 4:25 am

I think this is a great piece. People need to read this if they are taking care of someone dying or are facing someone dying.

Admin
April 19, 2014 4:32 am

stevefitzpatrick
Eric Worrall,
Humm… Many who wish to force upon everyone their personal beliefs, whether those be religious or political (eg Malthusian Eco-loons), for certain honestly and completely believe they are doing good. … Willis does not need to be lectured to by a stranger, and IMO, he is justified to tell her to pound sand… I would do the same.

A legitimate viewpoint – Willis is well within his rights to say what he did. I just wanted to point out that there was a difference between Willis’ Mortician example, a person who knowingly acts out of brutal self interest, and someone who sincerely believes they are trying to help. The outcome might be just as annoying, but the motivation is most likely different.

Thijs
April 19, 2014 4:45 am

Hold your family and friends close, remember to taste the strawberries, …
You drove the point home, thank you so much for sharing.

Richdo
April 19, 2014 5:03 am

Peace.

Will
April 19, 2014 5:12 am

That was wonderfully and beautifully written. I’ve shared some of your experiences, the death of close loved ones before their golden years, and you very eloquently described the bizzare mixture of humor, pain, sorrow, and serenity.

Bob Weber
April 19, 2014 5:22 am

Willis you are a gifted communicator. I have a 73 year old piano tuner and player friend who loves his whiskey so much it’s brought him to death’s door in a few short years. it is very difficult to see a man once vibrant and active now unable to get up out of his wheelchair without help. He told me last week at the local elder care center, “I don’t want to give up…” and as always, “I love you man” His name is Bill also. Bill buried his beloved Elaine a decade ago, and he is the only person besides my lady who has continually encouraged me to keep at my electric weather project. I will miss him when he inevitably moves on to the great beyond.
I appreciate your presence here, in spite of often disagreeing with you Willis. And like Janice, I believe our essence carries on beyond this existence.

Alan the Brit
April 19, 2014 5:24 am

What a beautiful yet very sad tale! You write Willis, very well indeed. Having just interred my Mother’s ashes this morning, & soon the attend an family Aunt’s funeral in the next few days, Death is no stranger to any of us! Happy Easter to all my WUWT friends, & critics alike.

1 L Loyd
April 19, 2014 5:37 am

Thank you Willis. It was very real.
My father died suddenly while I was living a thousand miles away. I moved home to care for my mother. She died in her bed about eighteen months later. It was not the normal experience, but I am glad I had it.

Lawrence13
April 19, 2014 5:38 am

Cheered me up no end., thanks Willis.
Seriously your experience in finding the dead body reminded me of a most recent thread on a weather forum
UK Sci weather where a weather contributor shared his experience of an elderly woman collapsing on a bus in the UK and not a single person helped her except him and then he (Joe) went on to say just how shocked he was at peoples attitude towards her. Off course this is slightly different as the person in your case was already dead , however you some how rationalised the reaction of ignorance and avoidance of those ignoring the dead body as be caused by poverty, I would and used to when a left winger , always look for excuses for peoples behaviour but I now think that a standard of living and indifference to cruelty to others situations are not mutually exclusive, in fact I think our vastly improved western standard of living which has given us the ability to abort young babies at 22 weeks has taken its toll on our human spirit and morals.
Here in the UK abortion run at 200,000 per year and although we all agree many children are thoroughly spoiled in the west there is also a growing callousness and cheapness of a child’s life on the opposite side of the coin with those that were wanted and not aborted living a totally different life to those that if not aborted were not really wanted and grow up with a single mother and many step fathers , are surrounded by porn , drugs , alcohol, vicious dogs , violence and no real discipline and love. It really is a nightmare that has no bearing on affluence.
Anyway I digress and I have a bunch of weeding to do but suffice to say there are I feel, moral issues that are now manifesting themselves and they are not purely based on poverty. I will say I’m an atheist so my anti wholesale abortion stance has nothing to do with God. I would also point out that the same AGW people that want to save the Polar bear are generally the same people that support abortion i.e. left liberals. I could say more but the sun is poking its head out here in SE London and I’m off.

Tom in Florida
April 19, 2014 5:39 am

While sad when it happens to those we love, death is the inevitable result of life. Nobody gets out alive. Perhaps that sounds a bit callous but as with many others who have served in the military and who have been influenced by too much death, you just have to desensitize yourself. My Wlfe used to ask me why I do not have any close male friends, she finally was able to understand I had lost too many and it just wasn’t worth the pain. But that was long ago and maybe it’s time for a change.

DJ
April 19, 2014 5:41 am

My wife died of complications from her cancer and treatment last month. I was her caregiver 24/7 for the last 2 years.
I’ll keep my eloquence to myself for the time being, but am happy to see your’s here.
Yes, Willis, we do all grieve in our own way. Thank you for sharing with us.

April 19, 2014 5:44 am

Thanks W – ‘a lot of effort to craft a powerful story’. Great writing from such experience.
W. Re Janice – There is so much wrong, hypocritical and offensive with your criticism of janice, I wouldn’t know where to begin the show. I’m sure you will see most of it when you calm down some more.
To Janice – and W – I would second the ‘Life’ theme as opposed to the death theme in regard to having an ear for wisdom.
Thank you too Janice – clearly a heartfelt compassion for another human being in reflective moments. That W. posted and you replied on Easter w/e is interesting and topical for free thinking and open minds. Notwithstanding the charged foul reaction from Willis, you have every right to post as you did on a forum that claims to be and usually is one of the best of its type. Forgive Willis as he knows not… He would claim he sees…
Get over yourself Willis, it wasn’t about you – or was it? As I read it I felt your experiences, felt I got to know you somehow, WUWT has become somehwat famillial. Then your reaction to Janice just filled me with horror, killed my empathy with/for you. You certainly are a complex fellow.
Please please make it right.
Neil

Bruce Cobb
April 19, 2014 5:54 am

As usual, beautiful writing, Willis. There are two kinds of death; the expected, sometimes lengthy and often painful type you experienced with your friend and father-in-law, and the sudden and unexpected type of death. I lost my brother to brain cancer in ’97, a glioblastoma, after a nearly 20-month battle. At the time of the diagnosis, the tumor was already the size of a grapefruit, and surgery was scheduled immediately. Aside from that, though, he opted for alternative therapies thereafter, though he did seriously consider the doctors’ reccomendation afterwards of radiation and chemo therapies, since not all of the strands of the tumor could be removed. There were no guarrantees that it would extend his life, much less cure the cancer, and would itself be a travail, and uncomfortable. Despite our wishes, he opted out.
He did quite well for a while, even with a chunk of his brain missing. Eventually, though, the tumor came back, and this time, surgery wasn’t an option. He died in hospice care, on Thanksgiving Day. My brother loved music, and although not trained, had a sort of innate ability with it. I and a musician friend of his played some music for him in his room at hospice. I had brought my fiddle, thinking I’d play alone, but the friend also happened to be there, with a guitar, so we had an impromptu jam session of sorts.
My dad died unexpectedly a little over two months ago, just a couple days before he would have turned 93. He caught pneumonia, and went to the hospital, and appeared to be recovering. But, a little less than two days after being admitted, he died in his sleep, some time around 3AM.
Thank you for your story, Willis, and the reminder that we don’t know when our time will be up, nor indeed, our loved ones’ lives, and that we should treasure what we have.

Steve from Rockwood
April 19, 2014 6:06 am

Well worth the read Willis.

Andy McNABB
April 19, 2014 6:07 am

“I put the covers back on Billy and tucked them in around him because it was night time, and I didn’t want him to be cold. We are truly bizarre creatures, we humans . . .”
This reminds me of the time I spent in a remote Papua New Guinea village. An old man had died. The villagers asked if I could help with some clothes to dress him in before being placed in his coffin. I agreed and gave them some money to buy them. We dutifully dressed him in a white shirt and blue tie and smart trousers – truly fit to be buried !
They then asked for some blankets. I questioned the need to blankets, but they responded that it was “cold down there”.
I gently explained that the deceased have no sense of hot or cold, and no feeling at all. But they were worried that he would be cold, so we purchased some blankets to “keep him warm”.
Some truly great feelings expressed above and my condolences to you.

Snowsnake
April 19, 2014 6:10 am

Thanks, Willis. My wife died just before Christmas after a two year battle with cancer and it was a truly terrible death. There were surgeries, radiation and chemo treatments, nursing homes and loss of control of bodily functions. There were short recoveries and endless pain. I almost never left her side and was always watching, waiting, and praying. When the end came and she wanted home hospice with just me and the kids sent home to their own lives, I agreed. I spent the last two weeks changing her and giving her oral morphine and listening to her moan and and watching her writhe in agony. And after I kissed her forehead and told her I loved her the last of thousands of times she sank into a non responsive state and after four days more days during which I didn’t sleep she died in our bed of 48 years beside me.
Well, food still tastes good, the birds still sing, children laugh and dance and the world is a beautiful place. But not for me. I think most of me died too. Perhaps, my faith will be enough (it is strong),
and like an old wolf, I will shake the snow from my pelt and move on, but it no longer matters where I go.

Harry Passfield
April 19, 2014 6:19 am

No dry eyes here, Willis. Wonderful writing.
May I offer a quotation I used as an epitaph when my dear brother died:

“Let no one weep for me, or celebrate my funeral with mourning;
for I still live –
as I pass to-and-fro through the mouths of men.” 
Quintus Ennius

Douglas Taft
April 19, 2014 6:24 am

moved! Thank You

Dire Wolf
April 19, 2014 6:33 am

Willis, your heart is as profound as your prose are eloquent. As a religious professional I have buried my share, including some good friends. You are very right that many, many… too many people are unprepared to experience death. Your narration of your journey with death would be a fine place for anyone to begin to prepare. Thank you.

SadButMadLad
April 19, 2014 6:37 am

Having just lost my father a couple of months back after a long illness I found it very difficult to read your story without tears welling up. I mean that in a good way, it was very emotional.
I think we sanitise death too much in our western way of life and your story highlights that. I missed out saying goodbye to my grandparents due to this, but made a purposeful decision to see my father in the mortuary because I was at home when he passed away (the rest of the family was with him though). Those 15 minutes I had alone with him were very very helpful to me. As you say, we mourn the passing of those who die because we can no longer involve them in our continued life.
As for the bureaucracy of death. Tell me about it. One of the most complex parts of living in a modern society is death. And because we don’t like to talk about death, it’s not optimised and fine tuned and de-cluttered of all it’s baggage.

meltemian
April 19, 2014 6:40 am

Willis: Your writing had me spellbound, thank you.
Weathep: ….and I had only just recovered from reading Willis,

meltemian
April 19, 2014 6:48 am

…….and Snowsnake: a day at a time, that’s all you can do.

Ron C.
April 19, 2014 6:53 am

Willis, thanks for the post.
It reminded me of a greek myth, which you also must know.
When the goddess Eos asked Zeus to make Tithonus (her lover) immortal, she forgot to ask for eternal youth. Tithonus indeed lived forever:
“but when loathsome old age pressed full upon him, and he could not move nor lift his limbs, this seemed to her in her heart the best counsel: she laid him in a room and put to the shining doors. There he babbles endlessly, and no more has strength at all, such as once he had in his supple limbs.” (Homeric Hymn to Aphrodite)

Editor
April 19, 2014 6:58 am

My condolences to you and yours on your losses, Willis.
Wonderfully written, as always.
Thanks for sharing.
Regards
Bob

Kirk c
April 19, 2014 7:01 am

Willis,
Thanks for that.
It was an enjoyably morning with hot coffee, a beautiful sunrise and some tears on my face . An above average start to Saturday.
As an atheist, I particularly enjoyed your tale of life and death being told without the usual religious overtones. I think there was only one “hell” buried in there somewhere.
I’m a proponent of end of life “assisted suicide” and a death with dignity. Your unenviable task of trying to collect enough illegal street drugs to euthanize a dying loved one is a duty i’m sure is secretly assigned to many others as well. I’m continually amazed at sciences ability to improve life and extend it yet, how slow society is to accept and dispense “a humane demise”.
Hopefully, as the population ages these attitudes will change and will eventually be accepted and written into law…but this is probably best discussed in a different thread.
Thanks again for a great story.
I think I’ll go phone My Dad while I still can. Maybe we’ll chat about the weather…or climate..
“Life’s short….Call now”

Raymond
April 19, 2014 7:08 am

Willis,
I’ve been fortunate enough in my life to have friends who would die or kill for me. You are that kind of person, a blessing for your family and friends.
We will never meet, but you are an Honor to the Community of Man and I am pleased to have discovered your work.
Ray

sleeper
April 19, 2014 7:10 am

I wish I had stopped reading at the end of the piece.

April 19, 2014 7:14 am

Thanks Willis. That’s all I can say at the moment.

starzmom
April 19, 2014 7:25 am

Thank you Willis. I too sat with my father when he died, counting out his heartbeats and breaths until they came no more.
Please, please consider publishing your essays. They are truly a treasure, and I am honored and blessed to be able to read them.

H.R.
April 19, 2014 7:35 am

I was busy fishing last night and didn’t catch your post until this morning, Willis. Thank you very much.
One particular power of your story is the memories and emotions it evoked in those of us, similar in age and similar in experience, recalling the deaths of our loved ones. Some have shared their memories in comments above, while many more of us will keep and hold our recollections.
All the memories you have caused to be summoned are unique, but the emotions are universal.
Thanks again, Willis.

Steve Keohane
April 19, 2014 7:52 am

Thanks Willis for sharing life and its loss with us. Ignore the naysayers, the depths of your humanity need no apology.

John Slayton
April 19, 2014 7:56 am

A number of commenters have identified themselves as atheists, so I will venture to identify myself as a Christian. Like many others, of whatever religious belief, I read your writing with interest, finding information, entertainment, and occasional wisdom. This current post is certainly worth reading, as it is both thought provoking and compelling.
Now it seems to me that publishing an essay on death the day between Good Friday and Resurrection Sunday, and then expecting Christian readers to stand by in mute silence is a bit unrealistic, if not unreasonable. So I’d give Janice a pass. But of course I share her hope…

Go Home
April 19, 2014 7:56 am

“and she wants to hijack what I’ve written”. It appears to me, you were the one who allowed this thread to be hijacked, not Janice’s innocent message. Other than the message section, great writing as always.

Stevie B.
April 19, 2014 7:59 am

Your story brought back memories of my own parents deaths. There are always regrets, but cherish the good memories and hold them close. I sincerely wish you peace and grace as you overcome your loss.

Doug S
April 19, 2014 8:03 am

God bless you and your family Willis. Thanks for sharing this story, it brought tears and smiles for me.

Jim Clarke
April 19, 2014 8:10 am

As usual, great writing, Willis. It was an honor to read your words.
Death has also been a part of my life. Within the last 6 weeks, I have lost an aunt, a fellow choir member and a dear friend to death. Two were of the age where death is no surprise. One simply went out for a ride on his bicycle, fell and hit his head so hard he never woke up.
During this time, I have also read two books that were given to me shortly before these loses occurred. The first was titled: ‘Soul Survivor’, the true story of a toddler who kept reliving the death of a WWII fighter pilot in his nightmares. The book is not particularly well written, but is perhaps the most compelling story of reincarnation that I have ever come across.
The second book I began reading the day my friend fell off his bike. I finished it 24 hours later, as my friends body gave up the fight his brain had surrendered too the day before. It is called ‘Proof of Heaven’, the story of a surgeon who came down with bacterial meningitis and lay in a coma for nearly 7 days, brain dead for all practical purposes, before a miraculous recovery. His experience of the ‘after-life’ is compelling, to say the least.
By definition, the word ‘proof’ implies some physical measurement or observation. Consequentially, it is oxymoronic to look for ‘proof’ of spirituality, which by definition, is completely non-physical. The surgeons story is not actual ‘proof’ of heaven, but it is completely in line with the countless non-physical experiences that so may have shared, from people that I know to the great mystics of the ages. It is completely in line with my own, non-physical experiences. Consequently, I have complete faith that life is eternal.
I have shed many tears recently, but I am not crying for those who have died. I am crying for me, and all the others who live on without them. I believe the dead are on a different journey now, and I do not think they cry for us. From there perspective, there is nothing to cry about.
Perhaps it would be better to “seize the day” for the joy of living rather than for the fear of death, yet that fear is a powerful motivator. Either way, seizing the day is the right idea.
Bless you, Willis, and your gorgeous ex-fiance and family.

Dan Sudlik
April 19, 2014 8:10 am

Dear Willis, I was having a “bad day” this morning. I just cried and laughed through your post and am now trying to figure out why I was so mad at the world. I have been through some of what you experienced with family deaths but never have seen them described so beautifully. Thank you so much for your love and understanding and for making my life better.

Grant
April 19, 2014 8:19 am

From the little bird that fell from the tree before my 5 year old eyes that struggled for its last breath, to all those whom I’ve loved that smiled and talked and laughed with that were gone the next day. Or the stranger that I perchance met with one day who held my hand and looked into my eyes with complete terror as she breathed her last. Or a dear young friend who would die the following day of a brain tumor who said as the credits from ‘The Wizzard of Oz’, “This can’t be the end, I know there’s more!”
The only thing I know is that I have know idea how any of us got here or why we exist. Yet here we are.
So, as Willis advises, live it up and love.
You too, Janice. Willis was an ass about it but just because it comforts you doesn’t mean it comforts others. Keep your condolences honest and simple and without the pretense of knowledge, because you don’t know. That’s why they call it faith.
As for you Snowsnake, your story is gut wrenching because your pain is in store for many of us. I think the best way to honor those we’ve loved and lost is to up our life game and not give in to our sorrow. It sounds like she loved you more than any man on Earth and you certainly were the best man on Earth for her when she needed it. Have courage, friend, don’t stop being that best man.
If there is an after life, she’ll be very disappointed that you tapped out.

Coach Springer
April 19, 2014 8:21 am

Not at all unusual for one person’s sincere poignancy to easily clash with another’s.
At risk of doing just that, here are some lyrics (Where is love now / Sam Phillips) that I have recently had cause to find poignant. (Not on Youtube yet, but Nickel Creek has a “poignant” version – but still distinct, which always assures that some will honestly not like it.) I’ve watched a few lights fade away right in front of me and this feels accurate:
If I could wait here for you,
Without hope or knowing what to do…
Watch the light fade away,
Without fear or knowing what to say…
Cry the tears from my eyes.
Leave me here long enough to realize.
Where is love now?
Where is love now,
Out here in the dark?
If I should hold all my dreams,
Through the night of the way life sometimes seems…
And if I can’t see which way to go,
I’ll stay lost in silence ’til I know.
Cry the tears from my eyes.
And leave me here long enough to realize.
Where is love now?

Harry Passfield
April 19, 2014 8:40 am

Mods: Please feel free to snip this if it risks turning this wonderful post into a poetry blog:
This is by an unknown author. I found it in a national newspaper (fresh then) in 1996. It helped me through a loss.

It’s Her Voice That Haunts me Now
It’s her voice that haunts me now.
Through all the years
I feel her whisper take me by the ears;
Speaking words of – almost – love (but just
Denying me that final, blessed, trust).
I hear her echo, clearly in my head.
Even when forgetting
What she said.
It’s her voice that haunts me now.
Her touch is gone
Forever from my sense; but, ringing on,
Her laughter thrills my heart again and, keen
To dream of how else fortune might have been,
I wish away the pain, once more beguiled,
Even when forgetting
How she smiled.
It’s her voice that haunts me now.
As passion palls
Her portrait fades, neglected, on the walls
Of memory. And when she breathes a sigh
So sharp, so real, so near again, that I
Can feel her presence, just as long before.
Even when forgetting
What she wore.
It’s her voice that taunts me now. I cannot tell
How good she tasted when we kissed; her smell
Was sweet, but drifted from me on the breeze
Of time. Yet her ‘Goodbye’ returns to freeze
My soul anew. And still I feel – bereft,
Even when forgetting
Why she left.

David Merillat
April 19, 2014 8:42 am

Had to remove my glasses reading that, couldn’t keep my eyes dry.
For what it’s worth, I agree with what Janice said. I agree with you too: this was the wrong place and time to say it.
Death and grieving seem to me to be a unifying human experience. Whether it’s your stories, my own experiences with friends and family, the family of MH370 victims, or other tragedies where the news agencies have felt they had license to invade people’s grief to share it with the world, I think there is a commonality. Despite widely different religious beliefs about where we go and what it takes to get there, we all feel the same grief.

rogerknights
April 19, 2014 8:43 am

Ernest Becker’s Denial of Death has this book description on Amazon:
Winner of the Pulitzer prize in 1974 and the culmination of a life’s work, The Denial of Death is Ernest Becker’s brilliant and impassioned answer to the “why” of human existence. In bold contrast to the predominant Freudian school of thought, Becker tackles the problem of the vital lie — man’s refusal to acknowledge his own mortality. In doing so, he sheds new light on the nature of humanity and issues a call to life and its living that still resonates more than twenty years after its writing.
http://www.amazon.com/Denial-Death-Ernest-Becker-ebook/dp/B002C7Z57C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1397922004&sr=8-1&keywords=denial+of+death

Michael Gersh
April 19, 2014 8:46 am

Thank you Willis, for a moving and beautifully wrought piece of writing. We all have our stories, but very few have the skill to render them as you do.

Walter
April 19, 2014 8:58 am

Willis,
What a great story about death. I was holding a tissue while reading.
I agree with you, and like sleeper, wish I had not gone on to comments. This was the worst time to evangelize, proselytize, witness or whatever Christians call it. Your reaction was justified.
My dear Roman Catholic, nurse practitioner wife has never asked me to join her church in the 35 years I have known her. And I even sing, as the token skeptic, in her church choir.
Billy and your family would have loved having my wife as a nurse, with Jesus nowhere to be found.

Admin
April 19, 2014 9:01 am

Norman Woods says:
April 19, 2014 at 12:30 am

A mocking scoffer tells stories designed to pull at the heartstrings of anyone reading
then acting like some kind of baboon about a woman’s emotional outburst she worries about you to her God in her heart.
I thought you were already low rent but I hope I never see another word about you that doesn’t start with the letters rip.
You cretin.

========================================
Norman Woods comment to Willis happened after I went to bed last night. Had I seen it, I probably would have deleted it with an admonishment.
Mr. Woods, there were TWO caveat ahead of this story, and yet you chose to read it anyway, and then proceed to tell us how how is was “designed” and then proceeds to call Willis a “cretin” for pouring out his soul in a way that benefits everyone while being a way to reconcile his own grief.
In my policy page, I say that I treat WUWT as an extension of my own home:

Welcome to my home on the Internet. Everyone who visits here is welcome to post, but please treat your visit like you would a visit to a private home or office. Most people wouldn’t be rude, loud, or insulting in somebody’s home or office, I ask for the same level of civility and courtesy here.

If you had said what you had written in polite conversation in my actual home, I would have shown you the door immediately, and very likely kicked you in the butt on the way out with an utterance of “…and don’t come back!”.
Consider that same action to apply here in cyberspace.
As for Janice and Willis. Death conjures up strong emotions, some of the emotions aren’t even valid, but are just the subconscious raging at what it can’t reconcile in its war with consciousness, and emotions. Emotions over death, be it from grieving or from attempts at consolation are often flawed in their execution, because of that war going on in your head. I speak from experience on both sides.
Janice has done some very caring things that many at WUWT don’t know about. Willis has does the same but in different ways. I count you among my friends and hope you can make peace without lasting damage.

Born2Sail
April 19, 2014 9:02 am

Will, I enjoy your writing. This piece was wonderful. As a former cowboy, now a blue water sailor and the father of a fusion jazz drummer, and now the oldest member of my extended family, only you can imagine how this story touched me. Thank you…

John Whitman
April 19, 2014 9:20 am

{All bold emphasis mine – JW}

In the Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach, he said,
“My conclusion from all of this? Hold your family and friends close, remember to taste the strawberries, play your own music whatever that might mean to you, and do what you love … because the night is never far away.”

>>99% of my dearest friends and the vast Whitman family clan have profoundly diametrical world views (aka philosophies) that are incompatible with mine. They are expected to continue to remain my dearest friends and my cherished family. Intellectually we dual endlessly and with great enthusiasm, but benevolently (mostly).
: )
So I do not see the boarder issue some have with Janice’s first comment, given the context of Willis’ guest post.
John

April 19, 2014 9:25 am

Willis,
Your heartfelt story was truly a masterpiece.
Thank you.

April 19, 2014 9:32 am

The first time I died I had no idea I had died. Many years later I died again. A pleasant relief, but it was so surprising. I wondered why I was still here. Really wondered. What is it I was supposed to do? Still not sure. I stood and cared for others as their days came to a close. Watched, helped with things that really made that did not really matter, made their toast, endured the emotional drama, as others did the same in their own way. I new their day would be so pleasant for them, but for them it came so slow, agonizingly slow and definite. Time passes by. So don’t waste it on acquiring junk. Be available.
And….”My conclusion from all of this? Hold your family and friends close, remember to taste the strawberries, play your own music whatever that might mean to you, and do what you love … because the night is never far away.”

Steve Lohr
April 19, 2014 9:32 am

Willis, thank you for sharing your grief. My uncle passed away on my birthday this week. I had just read his obituary when I looked on WUWT. Your writing was one of those cosmic moments when everything seems to intersect for a sub atomic instant and make sense. Before it slips away, and before I go back to the common plane, thanks for sharing so openly your life experience. It is a precious gift.

Steve C
April 19, 2014 9:36 am

What a lovely, saddening, moving, uplifting article, Willis. So many emotions now playing in my heart. Thank you.

anna v
April 19, 2014 9:41 am

Good writing Willis , death is what we have to get used to, all of us. Like birth, hospitals in western society have made death antiseptic.
Your encounters were with people leaving this world after some decades having lived with their faculties intact most of the time.
” weathep says:
April 19, 2014 at 2:45 am
The story of Joe (not his real name) 1991-2010 19 years, 6 months, 19 days, 20 hours…”
This moved me too, for a parent nothing can be worse than a sick child with a date by.
May they rest in peace.

davideisenstadt
April 19, 2014 9:57 am

Anthony you’re a mensch.
[I originally took this as an insult, but confused the word with another, my apologies – Anthony
the definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mensch ]

April 19, 2014 10:07 am

Best damn eulogy I’ve ever read, moving even heart rending but you left me grinning . . . a piece about death very full of life. That was a skillful blending of grief, humor and love. Thanks.

April 19, 2014 10:11 am

evanmjones says: I dunno, Janice. Unlike with my beloved climate stations, I have no data on that. What is, is.
willis, evanmjones: I have data on that!
As a captain of a ship you know that lookouts very often tell you what you already know. It is the captains job to be one step ahead of events. When a lookout tells you about the same bouy for the third time, do you tell him off? No! Because, discouraged, the next time he might see something and not tell you, and murphy knows that will be the one unlit marker you didn’t see before him.
As an engineer by training, if I have a problem, then whoever comes up with a solution is the man/woman of the moment. Since Janice knows of a solution, then she is right to tell you. IN any other situation you would scold her for staying silent. Whether you know or not, use your look outs, don’t abuse them. They are collecting data in the places you are not even looking.
Ok, my data: I help victims of PTSD. Currently new methods are in trial which can resolve PTSD for a room full of survivors simultaneously. The process being used is repeatable. I have personally repeated this process in one on one settings between 1 and 20 times a week for more than 10 years, collecting a lot of data, written and recorded. In each instance, after a lot of investigation into the cause and effect behind the PTSD, the curative moment occurs about 20 seconds after praying a specific prayer asking Jesus to speak. He speaks to the victim and they are healed of that issue within 20 seconds. A scientifically repeatable scenario, which is open to analysis. I say this here because if you would like access to this data, you can have it.
If you write a piece on Death in all its agonies, you have to expect people to mention the only hope known to man. The only man ever known to have cheated Death, witnesses record that he left the two pieces of his grave clothes still wrapped as if around his body which was no longer present. We are also told that since one man overcame death, we all can. This is good news, not just good news, it is the best news.

ossqss
April 19, 2014 10:37 am

Thanks for sharing Willis. May your ability to do so bring peace and comfort to you and yours during these times.
This should be a reminder to many to take advantage of the precious time you have with your loved ones. Say those things and do those things you always wanted to with them before your opportunity escapes forever.
Sing the songs of life while the band is still playing folks!
Kindest regards, Ed

Gary Hladik
April 19, 2014 11:00 am

Norman Woods says (April 19, 2014 at 12:30 am): “…then acting like some kind of baboon about a woman’s emotional outburst she worries about you to her God in her heart.”
Not to worry, Norman. Janice has already forgiven Willis. I mean, she has to, right? 🙂
Speaking of which, aren’t you supposed to do the same (nudge nudge)?

jdgalt
April 19, 2014 11:10 am

If there is any hope known to man, it is that medicine will improve fast enough to catch up with our maladies physically and cure us before they can kill us. (Or after, if cryonics turns out to work.)
I’m sure religions are very reassuring to those who already believe. But to someone like me, they are just “counterfeit cryonics” — promises of immortality by people who have neither any possible means, nor any intention, of delivering.
There are laws against scams praying on the elderly. I wish someone would enforce them against religions.

April 19, 2014 11:32 am

My view of WUWT is a soap box of sorts; partially regulated by its owner. Open to those mostly with a better heart and good character rather than the lesser. I see Janice as a sweet well intended lady whose remarks are often funny, comical, sincere, lonely, dancing, joyful…laughable, sometimes sarcastic, spirited and sticks to her conviction(s). Never mean. Am I wrong? (no response necessary)
If one is to share such openness as is this post, then there is going to be, and should be expected, such from Janice. Its a great post. It assume reached many who have not posted a remark. Maybe just let it evolve without the gnashing of teeth.

Zek203
April 19, 2014 11:57 am

Dear w
I sat up with a patient one night who was dying of heart failure who had no family when I was a resident doctor, this was before the hospice movement, the nurses could not care for her as they were too busy. I felt she should not be alone, she was conscious and aware right up till her heart stopped. She was in no pain or air hunger.

climatereason
Editor
April 19, 2014 12:00 pm

Willis
A very nice piece. You do have a talent for this type of writing as I found your UK travelogue equally interesting.
As is often the case, I read the article then started reading the comments from the bottom up so was increasingly bemused as to what Janice must have done to have earned your annoyance.
When I finally got to her comment I was surprised that you took her loving message in the way you did. Hijack the thread? I didn’t see that at all. Janice appears to be a very caring person. Grief takes different forms and in your case it came out in a rather unfortunate way. Her great support for WUWT in general and the various key people involved in it in particular-including you- surely means she deserved better.
A beautiful piece Willis, and some reconciliation between the two of you would provide a suitable bookend to it and leave a number of us feeling rather more comfortable.
tonyb

Sam Prather
April 19, 2014 12:03 pm

This was one of the most moving pieces I have ever read. Thank you so much for writing and sharing this. I will always remember your story, and take inspiration from it.

José Tomás
April 19, 2014 12:21 pm

If there is someone here who really sounds frightened, this is you…
You could have posted the percentage of Christians in Western Society (your society), and I am confident that you can understand that calling the God of the overwhelming majority of your neighbours an “invisible friend” and other such infantile atheistic snippets IS most offensive for them.

April 19, 2014 12:33 pm

Willis, condolences.
(If you don’t want to be poked with the “life-preserver” then don’t follow this link.
http://sunriseswansong.wordpress.com/2013/07/11/attention-surplus-disorder-part-two/comment-page-1/#comment-686)

davideisenstadt
April 19, 2014 12:47 pm

I never thought to insult our host in his own home. i appreciate your work; thanks for doing it, and for not deleting my post.
david

Tom J
April 19, 2014 12:56 pm

Typically wonderful story, Mr. Willis Eschenbach. Thank you very much for sharing it with us.
I think Death is like the rest of us. With an easy, quick task it gets it done right away. However, I think there’s a certain kind of ornery individual that presents an unappealing task for the specter. So, like the rest of us Death procrastinates and puts it off with these people.
That’s maybe one explanation I can come up with for myself. In 2004 (from the results of a test performed in Sept. 2003) the doctor gave me 5 years. In June 2006 a Thoracic Surgeon asked me if I was willing to undergo the risks (oh, something about a 5 year 50-65% survival rate) of really major operation (I think it’s called a lung transplant) that, at that time, the guidelines stated to only perform on someone with a life expectancy of 2 years or less. Being possessed of a spine of jelly, and unable to look when I get a shot, I told the surgeon, “Fat chance.” Then, in 2011 another doctor told me I had 6 months to a year. Maybe I’m still around because I decided not to pay him.
Or, maybe I’m still around because I’ve made myself a new friend. Last summer I’d determined I’d had enough with these estimates from the doctor so I took the issue in my own hands – literally. I’m left handed, so on the index finger of my lesser used right hand I asked a manicurist to paint a little art on the fingernail. And, that fingernail friend has evolved over the many months since I made its acquaintance. Right now, in jet glossy black, that nail juts out a proud 3/8″ beyond the other ones, and with a sharp, rounded, talon shape to it. Most important is the character painted on and portrayed on the black background: a silver death’s head – a skull. And each of it’s two black eye sockets have a glistening, ruby red garnet affixed and looking at you. A very dear friend of mine hates it and calls it creepy. Maybe Death thinks it’s creepy too and so maybe it keeps Death at bay. Or, perhaps, as Abraham Lincoln once said; keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. One can’t get any closer than wearing it.

John R T
April 19, 2014 1:20 pm

Your good friend and colleague ‘saved’ [what an awe-full word] a message for the most important day on my calendar. Could G-d’s Providence have been clearer? An earlier comment mis-read the date. Other persons of faith [not necessarily bound to any personal particular religion] have refrained from stating the obvious, invisible only to those who will not see: Good Friday’s message.

Decades ago, my daughter corrected me on ‘criminal.’ Mr/Ms Death will not attend his judicial hearing, and no one will sit on that jury – who is her peer? Mr. Death is no criminal.
Your composition, compelling and heart-rending, is now more than a private grief: you put your Self before us. Again, you deliver. Thank you for the memoirs. For the investigations. For diligently digging and unearthing. This blog draws thoughtful readers because of the owner’s openness to surprise: thank you, A W
You claim to be neither saint nor sinner. Invisible, a miserable word for I AM. Vindictive? He promises light and warmth to all his creatures, however unworthy. Faith and religion: two terms often confused. I know that your attention to detail in matters great and small will lead you to a fuller understanding. Today’s comprehension test: Writers lay bare themselves, their heart, history, children and parents. They cast their ware before swine, sycophants, and serious lectors. We choose to give you our ear – knowing tears may flow. weeping as we are reminded of our failures, our losses.
Thank you, again John Moore

Man Tran
April 19, 2014 1:40 pm

Willis,
I imagine a couple degrees of separation from Billy. I had the privilage of sitting in on a drum clinic by his successor, Joe Morello of Time Out fame when I was a teen. That gave me a whole new appreciation of great drummers. I would have loved to hear Billy give such wisdom to a bunch of garage band wannabes.

April 19, 2014 1:43 pm

Number of words in Janice’s original post: 484
Number of words in Willis’ continuous response to Janice’s original post: 4700

Caleb
April 19, 2014 1:53 pm

“…I figured he’d want to see the body first, but no, it’s the government. Paperwork first, last, and in between…”
Excellent line.
When Death walks into a bureaucrat’s bedroom, the bureaucrat likely asks to see his papers.

A. Scott
April 19, 2014 2:13 pm

Another of your heartfelt stories Willis – masterfully written. You help make the reader part of your experience.
Please don’t take Janice’s words as an affront – I think most of us understand her efforts were intended to comfort, in her own way and as her beliefs and life experience provide, not to proselytize.

April 19, 2014 2:21 pm

Thank you very much Willis.

April 19, 2014 2:23 pm

There are many ironies here.
Today is for Billy.
Listen to some west coast jazz today.
It’s a good day on this side of the dirt.
Thank you for this post Willis.

page488
April 19, 2014 2:24 pm

Haven’t read all the comments, so this may have been mentioned before; the lyrics quoted from “tropical song” were written by Jimmy Buffett

April 19, 2014 2:25 pm

PS—a point of order. You said my infantile words were offensive. Something can be infantile, or it can be offensive. It can’t really be both, infants are just infants, they can’t offend.

===================================================================
That depends on what’s in the diaper.8-)
(Sorry. Infantile remark.)

Susan's Grandfather
April 19, 2014 2:36 pm

[snip – shape shifter – using more than one handle here -mod]

Chad Levi Bergen
April 19, 2014 3:25 pm

[SNIP – insults delivered by proxy server using fake names while touting “magic gas” theory are prime candidates for immediate bit bucketing. Right “Norman”? Congratulations you’re a winner – Anthony]

April 19, 2014 3:29 pm

@highflight big number
Very, very, very well put!

Michael Larkin
April 19, 2014 3:36 pm

Willis, I’ve long been fond of Alan Watts’ piece “what to tell children about God” (it can be googled). According to that story, each of us is a manifestation of a source consciousness that is playing hide-and-seek with itself. While incarnate, it forgets who it really is. You, me, and Billy are actually instantiations of the one incomprehensibly magnificent being, and it’s good that we aren’t around in the one “physical form” forever and thus forever forgetful.
I tend to think there’s something to it, based on occasional spontaneous personal experiences I’ve had where everyone is perceived as an aspect of the one being, just as fingers are part of the one hand: and why would one finger ever not love another? Maybe that lady who expressed her particular understanding of Christianity, like you, is just another aspect of the one source consciousness, and if you had perceived her that way in the moment, you wouldn’t have become a little annoyed. When having the experience it’s impossible not to love everyone, even climate alarmists–heck, even terrorists.
If Jesus existed, maybe he was permanently in this state of perception, and at a much more profound level. Maybe he didn’t “die” on the cross; maybe none of us actually die, and the resurrection motif is an allegorical pointer to that: maybe we’re here for a while in the flesh to learn something more about how to rediscover who we really are, and maybe we have repeated attempts at doing that. Maybe we’re all in a sense sons and daughters of God, all chips off the old block, and nothing happens to us that doesn’t also happen to source consciousness, which puts good and evil in a new perspective.
In the absence of such permanent perception, maybe we make up stories. Maybe we invent the bearded guy in the sky who, like our forgetful egos, is wont to use and respond to carrots and sticks. Maybe we don’t like the sound of him and decide not to believe in him. I know I don’t, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that a source consciousness that is very different from that doesn’t exist.
Maybe, just maybe.
Namaste, and have a happy Easter.

Crispin in Waterloo
April 19, 2014 3:47 pm

Willis I appreciate the emphasis on the differences between attitudes to death in the West (where it is seen as unnatural and to be avoided at all costs) and those “developing countries” (for lack of a better description) where people very frequently take care of their own, or their neighbours.
After a funeral in Africa you come away feeling like you really buried them, because you literally did. Everyone shovels and some jump down to stomp the dirt property. But first everyone exhausts themselves through an all night vigil. As one gets older it is a privilege to start taking responsibility to deal with the details from the documents, the box, the place, the digging, guarding the hole, the procession, the family, the friends, the food, the memorializing, and dealing with the reality of the hole in everyone’s heart. The more it is hands-on, the more therapeutic and healthier we are.
I loved the story about the detective and the papers. My, my, we are so comprehensive. One of the hardest we dealt with was a young couple who died in a light plane crash leaving a 4 year old and one of the most rewarding at overcoming bureaucracy was a young teen. He had been killed by a passing flatbed with a protruding box. The family was very concerned about avoiding the legally compulsory post mortem. My wife was a star, and successfully argued there was no need because the cause of death was patently obvious. Very…rare. It doesn’t sound like much but sometimes it does seem to be “everything” in the moment.
You have done your elders proud. Thanks for sharing.

April 19, 2014 3:56 pm

I’m sorry willlis, but your (continued) deep felt problems with Janice comment show exactly that – your own deep problems, closed mind and a twisting of words and meaning that cast doubt on the real feeling, depth etc of your writing above – that you spent a lot of energy ‘creating’
From the top, (…If you want a perspective on life, read on – Anthony)
For me you have wiped all the good from the connection/sharing of your piece. I’m now more inclined to the Norman Woods view, and suspect a huge ego dependent on praise for emotive writing, incredibly intolerant of the mere mention of a Christ.
twisted, hijacked, pushed, etc etc ‘your’ piece – what on earth are you goin gon about?
My other comment stands too.
Sorry for your loss last January, but come on…

Joshua Richardson
April 19, 2014 4:04 pm

Atheists: keeping Soviet values of intolerance for anyone and everyone alive and well!

Evan Jones
Editor
April 19, 2014 4:08 pm

“You claim to be neither saint nor sinner. ”
Here’s the everlasting rub: neither am I good or bad.
I’d give up my halo for a horn and the horn for the hat I once had.
I’m only breathing. There’s life on my ceiling.
The flies there are sleeping quietly.
Twist my right arm in the dark.
I would give two or three for
one of those days that never made
impressions on the old score.
I would gladly be a dog barking up the wrong tree.
Everyone’s saved we’re in the grave.
See you there for afternoon tea.

Harry Passfield
April 19, 2014 4:13 pm

Willis: “[of any of your Gods]…I’m an equal opportunity offender.” Just f*ckin’ A!!! (an American friend (to this naive Brit) taught me that).

Leon Brozyna
April 19, 2014 4:27 pm

You speak on a highly spiritual plane without offending the reader with talk of any particular system of belief (or god). It’s a pity some insist on invoking their own particular belief systems, seemingly missing the spiritual joy you convey.

Darren
April 19, 2014 4:40 pm

Those that spit out the testimony of the Lord
The testimony of the Lord shall also spit them out
Revealing them fooled; and being fooled,
Busying themselves deceiving others
In much false testimony.
Not sure where that comes from; sure seems appropriate though.

April 19, 2014 4:58 pm

lots of interesting topics.
veridical perception.
http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html
A good skeptic keeps an open mind.
http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html#a2
In short, it’s not settled science that the spiritual and scientific are incommensurate. In fact, Godel showed how they were not.
Not that I believe, of course. Unless it works to believe.

Doug Allen
April 19, 2014 4:59 pm

Willis.
Another wonderfully crafted and pasionate story. I just this morning read something so different and yet hautingly similar, Siddhartha by Hernman Hesse. Tomorrow as facilitator for a “Living the Questions” group at our Unitarian Universalist church, I’ll be leading a discusion of it and its differences and similarities to the Christian and other religious mythologies. The two stories, Siddhartha and yours put my own confusion in relief. How do I reconcile my agnosticism and my pain with the Budhist and the Christian myths and with science and contemporary events? Like you and most here, I ” consider, for example, the billions of dollars wasted and the millions of people negatively affected, impoverished, or even killed by good people who are all trying to help the climate with the best of motives … ” which include my Unitarian Universalist friends and acquaitances who mostltly, knowing nothing about climate science, consider me a d-enier. Like your heartfelt feelings about Janice’s post (but not her person) I feel so upset by the liberal climate change meme (which pigeonholes me) that I no longer feel comfortable in the UU setting. I feel so estranged.
After reading Siddhartha (again!), I wondered if I should not just move on, no longer read or angiish over, or teach (as I do in a autumn OLLI course at Furman U.) about global warming/climate change, try to free myself from the attachments to my own cleverness, my own vanity, my own arrogance which, of course, accompany my beliefs based on years of climate study and devotion to scientific method . I am old, and death can not be far away from my present state of fitness and health. How might I become the ferryman (as in Siddhartha) and both help a hurting world and feel some sense of tranquility?
Your novella pulls me in the opposite direction where I want to fight, despite the sleepless nights and feeling those so familiar pangs of abandonment (my mother died when I was two in 1942 after visiting my father who 2 weeks later went to the Pacific Theater) now from my UU friends. Willis, I remember an outrburst you had on Climate Etc. (I think it was) regarding religion and atheism. I can tell that you too feel hurt by what passes for religion and conventional wisdom. Willis, I thank Anthony for his mensch-ness (I too had to look up the definition) for featuring so many of your thoughtful essays and scientific studies.

highflgiht56433
April 19, 2014 5:23 pm

Willis Eschenbach says:
April 19, 2014 at 3:19 pm
highflight56433 says:
April 19, 2014 at 1:43 pm
Number of words in Janice’s original post: 484
Number of words in Willis’ continuous response to Janice’s original post: 4700
“Inadvertently, she raised important issues. Also, I was over the top, so I needed to both explain some things and apologize for others … so sue me.”
We all got something special from your post young man. And no one is suing anyone, so no need for throwing in baiting comments.

Jim Clarke
April 19, 2014 5:23 pm

“You could have posted the percentage of Christians in Western Society (your society), and I am confident that you can understand that calling the God of the overwhelming majority of your neighbours an “invisible friend” and other such infantile atheistic snippets IS most offensive for them.”
I include the word ‘Christian’ in the description of who I am, and I do not find Willis’s words the least bit offensive. On the contrary, if I heed the teachings of my invisible friend, there is simply no room in my heart to be offended. If I am honest, I must admit that Willis’s position is far more rational than mine. Still, on this point, I have been motivated by my own experiences to be ‘irrational’ when it comes to spirituality.
I have known many who call themselves Christian, yet behave as if they have never heard a word that Jesus spoke. And there are others who denounce spirituality for very rational reasons, yet live as if they were trained at the feet of the Master. I would rather be in the company of the latter.
When most Christians throw out the “way, truth and light” scripture verse, they are not being loving. What they are actually saying in no uncertain terms is “You must believe as I do are you are going to hell!” (For you Christians who will protest that you do not mean it that way, think again. There is really no other way for a non-Christian to take it.) Not only is this offensive to the receiver and a misinterpretation of the scripture, it is also an insult to Jesus. How dare we limit the power of Christ to the machinations of us seriously flawed followers. If Christ needed us to bring people to heaven, the place would be empty.
As one who includes the word ‘Christian’ in the description of who I am, it is not my place to judge either Willis or Janice, but to love them both and appreciate them as fellow travelers.
The two great mysterious of my life: 1) that professed Christians so completely misunderstand the message of love spoken by Jesus that they end up killing people over it, and 2) the failure of professed climate scientists to so completely misunderstand how climate works that they end up killing people over it (through restrictive policies that reduce the life expectancy of the poorest among us).

Speed
April 19, 2014 5:29 pm

Bloomberg View has an interesting piece titled, “How Americans Die.” All numbers.
http://www.bloomberg.com/dataview/2014-04-17/how-americans-die.html

April 19, 2014 5:35 pm

Wonderful, Willis.

April 19, 2014 6:02 pm

Dear Willis,
I am very very puzzled by your remarks. You appear to be professing atheism, in which case applying logic, matter exists, and nothing immaterial is real, love, joy, peace, sadness, or sentimentalism, none of these things have substance, none of these things are real, in a real sense. I can understand that if you feel sad or sentimental then this must be a trick played on you by the chemicals in the brain for some reason, but they are not real. They exist as a pure illusion.
Again positing atheism as true, can we place an actual value on life? Let us take two fixed points and calibrate a value equation for life, then we can decide objectively if life or death has any value… At the beginning of the universe, fixed point one, life has no value or existence, call it a zero point on our calibration. At the end of the universe which dies, life has no value either, call it another zero. Join the dots, at all intervening points, logically life has no value. So objectively speaking, assuming atheism, life has no objective value at any point. Any perceived value is merely a relative opinion, the actual data speaks the truth.
Whether a person live or dies, thrives prospers or suffers makes no difference, in the end everyone dies. Nothing you do or say makes any objective difference to the outcome. The universe tends to heat death.
So… you spend much time writing about many interesting subjects, including death… for what objective purpose? Since it makes no measurable difference in the end why bother?
You write on emotive topics, you growl like a bear and mourn like a dove when you think someone else is being insensitive. BUT in your world view neither your sadness, your sentimentalism over the departed, nor your emotions of offense have any actual objective reality or value, in your world view.
Finally as an atheist you have no objective basis for defining what is good or what is bad, so what gives you the right to tell someone off for being insensitive?
So I find it offensive that you act so hypocritically.

u.k.(us)
April 19, 2014 6:27 pm

Wow,
Has Janice Moore’s heartfelt comment been denigrated enough, or should we start a whole new post.
Sympathy ain’t what it used to be.
Shameful.

Josh Richardson
April 19, 2014 6:36 pm

This loop-de-loop to try to conduct a private funeral eulogy in a public place is the kind of situation inappropriate activity I already know of and laugh at, atheists for attempting.
You’re on a site where two million people a month visit. You’re as wrong, as you’d be for thinking you’d get a parade application approved and not see any signs remarking on others’ beliefs on the street.
You brought Billy’s Eulogy to a public place then pretended it was a private reserve and have spent the past thirty hours posturing over your right to be free from theists.
Go find a country where atheists provide you all the theist ones do, and live there.
Willis Eschenbach says:
April 19, 2014 at 5:12 pm
Joshua Richardson says:
April 19, 2014 at 4:04 pm
Atheists: keeping Soviet values of intolerance for anyone and everyone alive and well!
Let’s review the bidding here, Joshua. Some Christians came to a funeral oration for an atheist. They decided it would be a great time to witness for Christ.
I objected to this crass, insensitive action … and I’m the intolerant one???
Christians: keeping intrusive, unpleasantly aggressive proselytizing alive for two millennia … you want Christ at your funeral oration for your father-in-law, Joshua? Fine. I promise I won’t come and proclaim the beauties of atheism. How about you extend me and mine the same courtesy? You want to bitch about intolerance? Get a grip.
Billy didn’t want Jesus at his oration. I followed his wishes, and they coincided with my own. As such, picking this time as an occasion for witnessing for Christ is incredibly insensitive, intolerant, and offensive. That’s just the facts.
w.

scf
April 19, 2014 6:39 pm

Good story.
“I went for some long walks on the cliffs overlooking the ocean with my gorgeous ex-fiancee, and we let the immensity of the water and the insistent wind and the endless waves wash away the sorrow and the struggle of the last few months. We both fished commercially together, we both are children of the waves. We saw a whale spouting far out in the vasty deeps—there is no better balm for the heart than untamed wildness.”
I liked that part. I’ve taken some walks like that, and I agree that there is nothing more serene for the mind than untamed wilderness, especially the oceans.

Art
April 19, 2014 6:42 pm

Thanks Willis for writting your accounts with death they hit very close to home for me.
This year I had my own close call with the grim reaper resulting in new coronary plumbing, and then experienced the loss of three close family members in a matter of months.
You are so right death brings both tragedy and comedy together. As I read your account of dealing with the mortician, sheriff, coroner, and the police investigation it reminded me of Arlo Gutherie’s Alice’s Resturant..
Keep writing I always enjoy the stories.. and keep playing the songs you shared with Billy..
All the best to you..

Max™
April 19, 2014 6:43 pm

Hmmm, so atheists can’t have value in life?
Awfully two dimensional caricature you’ve made there.

Darren
April 19, 2014 6:47 pm

[snip fake name – proxy server -mod]

Latitude
April 19, 2014 6:52 pm

Josh Richardson says:
April 19, 2014 at 6:36 pm
=====
Amen 😉
but the real questions are:
Is Janice going to wish Willis a happy Easter?
…and if she does, will we have to medicate Willis?
Stay tuned…..

April 19, 2014 6:56 pm

Great writing Willis. Its obvious that you are not only objectively in touch with your feeings but willing to put them out there for others to see and share. I also admire your sense of justice by not letting Janice and others here to walk into your grieving with their very false “moral superiorty”. Your response was spot on and in my opinion does not warrent apologies. BTW – what exactly is a nontheist and how does that differ from atheist?
Ken

wayne Job
April 19, 2014 7:04 pm

Thank you Willis, a truly well written piece about mortality and care for our loved ones.
This bastion WUWT in search of truth in science is a far cry from alarmist sites, that tend
to preach a dislike for mankind. That WUWT publishes pieces like this , and the amount of comments, gives us all an insight into the hearts and minds of those searching for truth.

April 19, 2014 7:32 pm

Superbly told, Willis.

April 19, 2014 7:57 pm

Coldish says:
Thanks, Willis. A science blog is no place for religion.
I feel the same way about CAGW Believers. They belong on a religion blog.

Aaron Luke
April 19, 2014 8:19 pm

In CAGW blogging such as here, you’re definitely on a religion blog. There’s no more science to that worthless crap than there is to claiming atheism has some right to make us all shut up, in a theist generated civilization, because their ears are burning.

April 19, 2014 8:23 pm

Finally as an atheist you have no objective basis for defining what is good or what is bad, so what gives you the right to tell someone off for being insensitive?
So if I’m an avid follower of Zeus I now have an objective basis?

Gerry
April 19, 2014 8:45 pm

Actually, this comment thread should have been rated “I” for immature.

Rick
April 19, 2014 8:46 pm

To paraphrase Anthony’s comment above, ‘anger and grief often go hand in hand’. I’ve been to a few funerals where there was plenty of both so I would say, “Willis you have apologized to Janice and that should end it”. From: ‘too old to die young’
“If life is like a candle bright
Then death must be the wind
You can close your window tight
And it still comes blowing in”

April 19, 2014 9:26 pm

safeprayer says: April 19, 2014 at 10:11 am
“……. I help victims of PTSD. Currently new methods are in trial which can resolve PTSD for a room full of survivors simultaneously. The process being used is repeatable. …… 1 and 20 times a week for more than 10 years, collecting a lot of data, written and recorded. In each instance, after a lot of investigation into the cause and effect behind the PTSD, the curative moment occurs about 20 seconds after praying a specific prayer asking Jesus to speak. He speaks to the victim and they are healed of that issue within 20 seconds. A scientifically repeatable scenario, which is open to analysis….. access to this data, you can have it….”
This is interesting:
I would theorize the answer is reasonably scientific. If you note that PTSD is effectively ‘rewiring/reprogramming/short circuiting’ of neural connections in the brain by concussions, violent events and the resulting circulating stress hormones and other created signalling metabolites associated with those events. (These neuronal connections are originally created by the body as we grow and learn and train throughout our lives, and ‘program’ our memories, thought processes, movements, skills and all bodily functions).
Religious belief too has always relied upon (a more subtle) reprogramming of the brain: The churches, cathedrals, chants, hymns, prayers, ceremonies, prayer leaders, preachers, repeated statements of loyalty/submission to a higher being, ceremonies, etc. (Note as a more extreme example of reprogramming: military training with stress, ritual, physical exhaustion used to effectively ‘program’ command following troops).
In this case with PTSD treatment, the religious ‘reprogramming’ would appear to have been very effective and beneficial.
By the way, this is not a criticism; I admire you for your wonderful work, and respect the time and effort and devotion to this you have undoubtedly applied.

NRG22
April 19, 2014 9:52 pm

Wow. Just…wow.
I read this story of Billy and cried so much I had to spread it out over 3 sessions, couldn’t do it in one shot.
Then, as someone else said, I wish I’d stopped after the story and skipped the comments. Not because I find religious talk offensive, but because I find the author’s replies to the comments offensive. I feel like the customer in the funeral home being sold something and it isn’t a more expensive casket. To write a story that tugs at the heart strings and then be so abrasive in your comments shows a side of the Willis I’d rather not have seen. And since I was unaware that reader comments are by invitation only, I would like clarification on whether that goes for all of WUWT or only for articles by Willis. If it’s the latter, fine, I’ll skip his articles but if it’s the former ill skip the whole site.
Personally, I don’t think this was the place for Willis to air his grief. If he doesn’t want certain comments made then he should have kept it private and only sent it through emails to those he wished to share it with. I understand grief can be a bitch, but it doesn’t give anyone the right to be a prick. Willis, you owe Janice a real apology. And no, you didn’t give her a real apology, all you kept doing was rationalizing your own bad behavior. Re-read your posts. If you can’t see the problems a little therapy may help.
My condolences to Billy’s daughter, I feel for her. You, not so much.

bushbunny
April 19, 2014 10:47 pm

On my son’s eulogy it said ‘To mourn too long is self indulgent. Continue to live you life in a manner the deceased would have approved.’ I donated a soccer trophy for over 21 years in my late son’s name, that was the age he was killed. He was a superb soccer player and in other sports, he went on an American exchange because of his sporting achievement and was even offered junior and senior soccer scholarships by two American universities. But his father didn’t want him to leave Australia. If he had gone, I often wonder how he would have turned out.

April 19, 2014 11:05 pm

markx says:
April 19, 2014 at 9:26 pm
You do know that long term PTSD is genetic do you not? Everyone (nearly true – as far as I can tell) gets it short term. Long term is > 1 year. Which is also the general consensus on how long intense grief lasts. For most people. For about 20% of the population it can go on much longer to practically indefinitely. Depending on circumstances, the severity of the shock to the individual, etc.

April 19, 2014 11:14 pm

Willis,
Dang … ten times as many atheists as Jews … wouldn’t have guessed that.
Jewishness is a condition of birth. There is no REQUIREMENT to believe anything. I had a Jewish friend tell me once in a discussion of religion that he would be a Buddhist if he couldn’t be a Jew. I agreed with him. And for the record. I’m Jewish.

bushbunny
April 19, 2014 11:20 pm

And how they died too M.Simon. I can’t imagine how it would be if a young person is abducted and never seen again, not knowing what fate that befell them. But as we get older we have witnessed friends and family passing over. Much regret of course if they were close to one. When one of my sons committed suicide, he left four notes. That was bad enough, but on the very date he died, and two years later, my former mother in law and husband committed suicide too. It put me in another tail spin for sure and for years I had a phobia about death not only for myself, but my dogs died and the emotional toll was terrible. But it was my friend of 40 years who retired and moved up near where I lived, and being a psych sister she told me to buy another show dog and come showing dogs with her again. (We had many years before) This meant traveling away for the weekend and we had fun too. This started me back on the path of living again. Life is short folks. And it gets shorter the older one becomes.
But religious folks, they do have the right to comment Willis, it’s called tolerance. Something I have felt that you are a little short on this sometimes.

bushbunny
April 20, 2014 12:21 am

I think it would be wrong and not prudent under the circumstances and somewhat very rude. Giving a eulogy if the person was a Muslim and a friend would be OK, but to respect that it is not a place to preach Christianity.
In fact women generally take a back seat and are not allowed to attend funerals, but at a private function afterwards if you are invited, we should respect their customs etc. But you meet bible punchers who don’t take any notice. I remember an Anglican priest, staring at me just after I had a major operation, and waking me up by clearing his throat. I told him right now, I was not in the mood to hear his version of the gospels, only my own. I was in a lot of pain. He still carried on, so I rang the nurse to remove him. Think of that a priest. Mentally ill I thought.

Bertram Felden
April 20, 2014 12:42 am

As always so elegantly and warmly written. The most moving thing for me is that in what is a supposedly civilised country the choice is between penury and a painful unattended death. As a European this seems just barbaric, and one is put in mind of this : http://www.buzzfeed.com/lukelewis/if-breaking-bad-had-been-set-in-the-uk
My daughter in Michigan is fortunately married to a retired USAF NCO, so she has her basic needs covered.

Richard G
April 20, 2014 12:49 am

My condolences on your loss. It is part of what makes life so sweet.
Live and love like you mean it.
Stay safe.
And don’t even think about petting porcupines.

April 20, 2014 12:54 am

Thank you. My father was born in 1928, and I know we don’t have forever. I completely agree with and hope for the proper order. I guess you’re the Carlos Castaneda of the Sea. As the notes of Ripple are playing again in my mind, I’ll just say, fare ye well…

A. Scott
April 20, 2014 2:52 am

Willis – I did re-read Janice’s comments as you suggested. I can agree with you they were a bit over the top – a bit pretentiously “preachy.” That said, just my 2 cents, but I still don’t believe it was intentionally proselytizing, although I can understand why it might seem that way.
What is interesting, in addition to telling the great story about Billy, is that you’ve also fomented a discussion on religion – on this Easter, of all, weekends. Perhaps the Lord does work in strange ways … 🙂
For what its worth, while I don’t always agree with you, I greatly admire your ability to tell a wonderful story, and your no-nonsense, non-PC, straight-forward responses.
In respect of Billy’s (and your) musical interests – here is a song I’ve come to find comfort in in these times … Glenn Campbell’s “Better Place.” I was able to see Glenn in one of his last public concerts two summers ago – he was well into the world of Alzheimer’s already and the concert was a mix of exhilaration and tears – as he crossed at times between worlds.
But he smiled the entire time, made jokes when he got “lost,” relied on his family, including his wonderful, talented and lovely daughter, who would gently guide him back to the present when necessary … and was still the incredible talent on guitar and vocals he has always been on most songs. Those in attendance experienced a wonderful journey – musical and otherwise – that evening and are better for it.
“Better Place” speaks of his journey and fears and the strong help along the way from his family and friends. Which remind me of the loyalty you show to your family and friends. It does speak of the Lord, but more a simple conversation than a prayer … hope you find some comfort from it.

Admin
April 20, 2014 3:40 am

Willis
But while I regret using a sledgehammer, I don’t regret swatting the fly.
Absolutely – an imposition is an imposition, however well meaning.
As I said upstream, the Australian rabbits can testify that about half the real, permanent damage on this planet is done by good people who are trying to bring help and comfort.
My grandpa fed his family during the war, when rations were short, by hunting rabbits. Every cloud and all that.
Personally I’m more worried about the scientists who work to contain the rabbits than any damage done by the rabbits. The people who work in a laboratory near Melbourne, scientists who have decades of hands on experience with genetic engineering and biological warfare, with modelling the spread of their artificial contagions, and optimising their kill rate. I hope they’re all getting all whatever marriage guidance, and any other help they need, to travel a happy route through life.

April 20, 2014 4:02 am

Willis, your position re Janice is just so wrong imo – I could demolish your argument in many different ways, comprehensively.
The overview I have is similar to a spoilt brat who is claiming that someone just stamped all over his beloved sandcastle, LYING about what they did and how they did it. Yes, your exaggeration, twisting and misrepresentation of Janice’s comment, on this stage, Jeeze…
Janice wrote: …’in case you might be interested…’ and went on to share a way she found to more productively live life, the living kind, where she found joy and love and what not by focussing on life rather than emotional connectedness to and supposed wisdom gained from death that speaks to you, that you listen to, is somehow a comfort….
your reaction to Janice and Christ reveals ego, agenda and your own type of preaching against the joy found by others. You’ve argued your limits and they are yours. A kind soul showed you no limits, but you shored up the barriers in your closed mind and fired lies to drive the wicked idea of Christ away – what are you so afraid of?
If you saw someone crying in the wilderness by the side of a dead loved one, palms to the sky, claiming they have death as a mentor, so wrapped up in death emotions… … janice was moved by your words to share her take on life so you might find hope, joy, positive stuff, in life and the living. You falsely claim she hijacked, twisted, stole your powerful story and a host of other twisted rhetoric, to God knows what, and much more
Very revealing.
A good study on the psychology of mind and reaction to belief.

April 20, 2014 4:15 am

Willis, your talk of Christian at a Moslem funeral is utter balderdash.
No faith was revealed in your eulogy, as u call it. Who knew waht Billy really believed when he was alive, how he changed, etc. Who knew what you believed or how shakey is that belief that you verbally attack a kind potential messenger or the message.
Who knows what Billy KNOWS NOW, he’s up there reflecting on the life he lived and the life he now has.
If you’re interested, look into NDE – after a bit of reading with an open mind, you might find some incredible insight into the wonder of this life…. and the next…

Philip Mulholland
April 20, 2014 4:28 am

Willis,
I am sorry for your family’s loss.
To date a search for Janice on this thread records 115 hits while a search for Billy results in 79 hits.
I am not sure that the focus of this thread is now on the correct person.

April 20, 2014 5:40 am

M Simon says: April 19, 2014 at 11:05 pm
You do know that long term PTSD is genetic do you not?
I am not surprised that there is believed to be a genetic susceptibility …. ie, some people are more likely to suffer the problem than others … and epigenetics apparently plays a part too: Traumatic events can turn on/off certain ‘stress genes’ increasing susceptibility later in life or even in subsequent generations. But, having a genetic susceptibility is not the cause in itself.

Admin
April 20, 2014 5:43 am

neillusion
Willis, your position re Janice is just so wrong imo – I could demolish your argument in many different ways, comprehensively. … Janice wrote: …’in case you might be interested…’ and went on to share a way she found to more productively live life, the living kind, where she found joy and love and what not by focussing on life rather than emotional connectedness to and supposed wisdom gained from death that speaks to you, that you listen to, is somehow a comfort….
your reaction to Janice and Christ reveals ego, agenda and your own type of preaching against the joy found by others.

I am an atheist, but one thing I appreciate about most of the Muslims I have met is they aren’t arrogant about their faith. They don’t try to proselytise, unless invited to do so, and even when invited they are sensitive to any sign of distress they might be causing. They believe everyone should find their own path to spiritual fulfilment. They most certainly don’t try to make someone feel guilty for having a different point of view.

April 20, 2014 5:49 am

There is great value in this post of Willis’, and in some of the very moving stories related in the comments.
And that is to remind us that the people whose articles we read, and those that we debate and agree with and disagree with and sometimes praise and sometimes abuse; are all people living out their own lives somewhere.
And unknown to us, at any moment some are immersed in the problems and turmoils and joys of life, and some are dealing with that most certain and final component of our and any existence; the approach and arrival of death.
Perhaps it will in the end make us all a little kinder to each other.

Evan Jones
Editor
April 20, 2014 6:08 am

However, I’m neither Janice nor a Christian, so I can’t even guess how she looks at all of this.
But I can. She feels hurt and chagrined. And I am personally sure she would never have made that unfortunate post if she had really understood how you feel about these things.
I deeply agree with what Anthony said earlier.
I am not the one who lost a dear friend a week ago, so, yeah, all this is easy for me to say.
What she did touches a nerve with you. It also does with me a bit, too, and perhaps worse when I was younger. So it’s not like I don’t know how you feel, either, because I have felt it myself. My parents were staunch free thinkers, but until age 12, I was sent to a deeply religious school (run by nuns) for various, entirely practical reasons. So you can imagine the inner conflicts I had with all this as a kid growing up.
As for the people who are beating up on Willis over this, I so wish you would grant him the same understanding that you are granting Janice. Noblesse oblige is a sword that cuts both ways. As I made that appeal to Willis, I now make it to you.
And now I see the commenters lining up on either side, and that is very distressing to me.

Snowsnake
April 20, 2014 6:53 am

Willis, I have read your different essays with great enjoyment and respect and I have come to love the written products of what is obviously one of the most rational minds anywhere. But, faith is not very rational. People kill others over faith and willingly die for their faith and history is replete with these examples. There is nothing very rational about it. I am infected with that kind of faith and I suspect Janice is too. When somebody who is aware of my personal physical pain and my recent emotional and spiritual pain asks, “Why are you still here when bullets are so cheap?” I have but one answer, “Jesus.” It is ironic, I suppose, that rather than die for my belief, I must live for mine.”
Your response to these comments are as expected in that you are consistent with your way of seeing reality. It is just that your reality is not congruent with the reality of those making these comments. It is like watching two persons blind from birth arguing over the qualities of the color blue. Of course you are correct. A comment to your essay of this nature was absolutely wrong.
And Janice probably feels a compulsion to make those comments as strong as the compulsion felt by a person who straps on a suicide vest and goes out to die for Allah.
I wish that these things were not so.

April 20, 2014 6:58 am

@ eric, not sure of point or person or faith in this thread you are sharing.
If it is that Willis tried to make Janice feel guilty for contributing as she did then I get your point.
To simplify my take on Willis, he was a guest speaker here and wrote what he wrote as the thread essay, his piece to share. the comments are for all to share their views/intuition/beliefs/criticisms/support, etc.
His twisted interpretation of Janice’s post and continued admonishment and criticism – was seriously contrived and totally unfair. Notwithstanding his apology for the ‘sledgehammer’ reaction to crack a nut, he continued with his funamental claim that she hijacked, stole, etc his creative powerpiece to try to convert, jam her religion at and so on. She did nothing of the kind in my opinion. That she poked a grizzly bear into rage has surprised me rather. And his tactic and context twisting creative misrepresentation of the issue he raged about has, for me, undermined felt empathy and ‘appreciation’ of the piece – to the point I think, I suspect, this is all about ego, his piece, his creative show, as a guest on this WUWT stage, using death as a vehicle for moving his audience, rather than really about billy. I know this sounds harsh, but I’ve read a lot here and between the lines and sort of get the feeling I’m on the right track – or I wouldn’t be so bold in someone’s time of grief. He still wants an apology from Janice.
the basic thrust of Janice’s comment seemed to me, consistent with my own, to be about Life, letting life’s wisdom, life’s light, life’s love whisper in your ear and be your mentor – NOT death, as Willis wove into his piece on Billy
Whatever the story, I’m sure Willis has suffered a significant loss, and is hurting – what to say, I’d like to help, but short of praising him on his piece, there’s not much I can say – I believe in a soul, that it goes on, reincarnates, that gives me a wonderful angle on life (and death) and in some way I can’t describe, comfort – a sort of timeless comfort against what many consider the suffering in the human mind, well, many of the things that cause suffering.
I’d like to help willis and about the only thing I’m getting here is that there is an ego that needs taming, with all due respect – we all had to do it, I think. The mind can be as confined and confining as it can liberating and free. Particularly in our suffering. Ego – friend or foe? Depends, all the time.

Tom in Florida
April 20, 2014 7:14 am

Opposing religions, the cause of wars since the dawn of mankind.
I suspect that Anthony may (notice I said MAY) put religious comments in the sin bin from now on.

April 20, 2014 8:07 am

Once again Willis makes himself 100% crystal clear – repeatedly, and some folks just don’t get it. And have to mouth off about it.
On his base point, Willis is right. The part where he was wrong, he has acknowledged he was wrong.
Again folks, what is hard to grasp about this?
To Willis’ critics – take today and reflect on why -your- minds are so closed that you can’t grab the crystal clear points here.

starzmom
April 20, 2014 8:20 am

To Markx and safeprayer–
I have a horse with PTSD. I won’t go into the long and sad details as to how exactly this happened, suffice it to say that the cure is not religious acceptance of any kind. Instead, it has been the very long and very patient process of teaching her that the bad things that happened in her past will not happen again, even if the thing that happened before the bad thing does happen again.
I have appreciated Willis’s story for what it is, a well written poignant and heartfelt narrative about something of utmost importance to him, that he has chosen to share with me and everyone who chooses to read it. I am sorry that others have felt the need to expand it in ways Willis never intended.
Thank you again Willis. It made my day yesterday when I read it for the first time.
PS RE: the horse–it was not abuse, just in case anyone was worried.

Reply to  starzmom
April 20, 2014 8:32 am

starzmom:
you are entirely correct, PTSD is caused by experiences, stored in memories, therefore it is not possible to cure it by words. Only actual real counter experiences which show the truth will genuinely correct the damage done.

April 20, 2014 8:20 am


Willis was not right. At all. In any way. In respect of Janice.
Those that can read the printed word and have half a moment to process the true factual stuff, will find that Willis has LIED (repeatedly) about what Janice ‘did’. (also me – I most definitely have not tried to jam religion at anyone). Total creative willful contrived misrepresentation of anothers comment. Isn’t that lying? Crystal clear lying? Perhaps you need to read up again Robert, to grasp this?

Pamela Gray
April 20, 2014 8:43 am

Loved every letter and even every time you hit the spacebar in that piece. Willis, your words have such teeth! They chomp and gnaw at life, and now death, in such a rascally memorable way. Hell, you chomp on my words let alone yours (not to worry…I am none the worse for wear)!
As to the ensuing issue with the other issue, the phrase “freakin blue bird of happiness” made me laugh out loud!

April 20, 2014 8:44 am

neillusion: I agree, Willis’ reaction was out of proportion. He has been, what we call “triggered”. This is where a present experience triggers the reaction that comes form many past experiences. If someone rejects you you feel rejected but also your mind cross references all past rejections and these contribute to the overall reaction, in particular your first ever experience of rejection.
markx: religion doesn’t provide any help whatsoever. Would you like to see an actual data point, rather than theorizing?

April 20, 2014 8:59 am

@safeprayer
I’m not sure I understand your point, seems centred on rejection. I don’t thin anyone has rejected Willis’s creative writing. It is good imo.

Pamela Gray
April 20, 2014 9:03 am

Uh…would you know who take your ill mannered “safeprayer” back to his playpen? You should have known he was going to follow you into an adult conversation, bless your heart.

April 20, 2014 9:14 am

willis: question. If love is real, what is it?

Ursa Felidae
April 20, 2014 9:20 am

Willis
Great article, however, massively disappointed in your reaction to Janice, who seems like a nice person.
The article, I think, set into motion for most readers, deeply personal thoughts about their own lives. I myself am agnostic, because as a logical thinking person I don’t know if there is a god. Perhaps I’m confused as to how an atheist can know for sure in a scientific way that there is no god…

John Whitman
April 20, 2014 9:26 am

WIllis’ ‘Billy’ post is not about science. To me It is about the very personal anecdotal portrayal of emotions experienced by an individual involved in the human condition. I do not see an issue with Janice’s first comment on this thread because she is doing what Willis’ did; that is sharing her emotional portrayal which happens to be religious.
But, having said that, there is more. On science threads I virtually never read Janice’s numerous comments which often contain religious references when she frequently participates in science dialogs in many WUWT articles. I first scan her comments in science dialogs superficially for religious verbiage then I usually do not read her comments when religious references are present in science dialogs. Also, I do not actively discourage her religious interjections on science posts where religion is simply irrelevant to a dialog on science, but I often think that it should be more openly questioned as to the appropriateness of her religion in a science dialogs.
John

April 20, 2014 9:30 am

neillusion: I used rejection as an EXAMPLE of triggering that most of us are familiar with. Where the response is often out of proportion to the offence. I did not guess as to the particular emotion triggered in Willis’ case, simply to say that Willis has reacted out of proportion to the original email.
Pamela: ill mannered? Again, what does this mean? You see I find lots of people making a great deal of effort to prove that we are just a fortuitous collection of atoms without purpose. Yet on the other hand making a whole lot of effort to further the cause, to uphold rights and the value of life, and may I say it the value of manners. I did not use the word hypocritical to be ill mannered, I used it in a factual sense.
The problem I am highlighting is that Willis is using concepts and definitions that come form a judeo-christian world view, and the slamming down the very first person who speaks to him from that world view.
Willis: You write a piece that implies life has a value, by mourning the loss of those who once lived. You talk as if love and friendship are valuable things. You speak of death as if it is a bad thing, even though it is regrettably inevitable. All of this implies a denial of atheism, since you are partially borrowing a value system, and axiomatic definitions from the judaeo-christian world view.
By your writing, you apparently believe in the objective value of life, you believe in the reality of emotions, and you believe in the objective value of friendship, and you believe in some definition of “bad” being the antithesis to some objective and real definition of good.
The only axiomatic definitions that you are not borrowing from a theistic world view which needs eternity for these definitions to have objective persistent actual meaning, is the Christian belief that it is ONLY premature death that is bad or sad, a life cut short. Generally we understand that death is a GOOD thing, that you have run your race, completed the challenge and will be rewarded for your good service (if you have any).
I have witnessed 7 of my elderly friends die within the last year or so, and for me each one was a celebration, not a sentimental, what if, what could have been would have been should have been, but a genuine celebration of success, and triumph.

Latitude
April 20, 2014 10:24 am

I’m just glad Janice is not Islamic….
…those fatwas can get nasty

David A
April 20, 2014 10:48 am

evanmjones says:
April 20, 2014 at 6:08 am
=============================================
I agree entirely.
Willis, thanks for sharing.
Janice, please understand, the implied threat of eternal damnation that your sincere writing presents, is offensive to present at this time, when not asked for. Willis apologized for over reacting, your apology here would be healing.
I have my own religious views In a philosophical conversation I will share them. When asked about them, I will share them. When another acquaintance, of unknown religious persuasion expressed sorrow, I know then is not an appropriate time to share what I have found to be valuable This would be doubly so if a part of that expression conveyed the idea of eternal suffering for those who do not accept.
Thanks for sharing Willis, and happy Easter to all.

Sal Minella
April 20, 2014 10:52 am

Enjoyed your piece, at least most of it (a short attention span caused me to bail early). I was utterly shocked by your response to Janice. The resulting discussion held my focus. It is heart warming to see so many open-minded folks willing to grant her the possibility of being well-intentioned.

Gary Hladik
April 20, 2014 10:54 am

Philip Mulholland says (April 20, 2014 at 4:28 am): “To date a search for Janice on this thread records 115 hits while a search for Billy results in 79 hits.
I am not sure that the focus of this thread is now on the correct person.”
So the thread has wandered. Big deal. Most do. In the process it has become a study in human nature above and beyond Willis’s initial (and very moving) article. Great thread!

David Ball
April 20, 2014 10:59 am

I am with Willis on this. Religion is a “hot button” topic, no matter what your views are. In fact, I am quite certain there are approximately 7 billion differing views on the existence or non-existance of god. I had a bit of an epiphany when I realized the belief in a god and the non-belief in a god are both “faith based”. There is really no proof god does or does not exist. Both are a matter of faith, if one is honest with oneself.
In our house, we have had a devastating year of loss and illness. My wife lost both her parents (a month apart), and 2 days after we buried her father, she was diagnosed with cancer. Money was short as we had to cover both funerals and loss of income due to my wife’s illness. It has been a difficult struggle. We have persevered and now we are looking forward to living our lives to the fullest, as my wife has been declared cancer-free, and this is what her parents would have wanted for us. To be happy.
It cannot be sunny everyday, and we live our lives honestly and compassionately. I am not certain there is an afterlife, but we adhere to the credo that “virtue is it’s own reward”. No matter what happens on the other side (afterlife or finality), I am prepared for either contingency.
Whether god judges our actions or not at the end, be certain that history will.

Evan Jones
Editor
April 20, 2014 11:46 am

If love is real, what is it?
Well, as Oliver Wendell Holmes remarked when asked much the same question regarding pornography:
“I can’t define it. But I know it when I see it.”

Evan Jones
Editor
April 20, 2014 12:00 pm

However, her motives seem immaterial to me.
You said that earlier, Willis. I can’t agree that motive is immaterial. It certainly makes a monumental difference in law, both criminal and civil: it is the difference between negligent homicide (or even accidental death) and first degree murder. Motive is certainly not the only thing; the consequences are the same, regardless of motive. But I don’t see how one can dismiss motive, either.

April 20, 2014 12:07 pm

Willis, perhaps you should read again what Janice wrote – it bears no resemblance to what you are antipreaching on about, at great length and pseudointellectually. You are deliberately creatively misrepresenting the comment, the facts and the context of this forum. Shame on you. Go on apologise to Janice.
What you are doing is disgraceful

Evan Jones
Editor
April 20, 2014 12:22 pm

I am now contemplating a more practical solution to all this. Something that combines the virtues of motive and desired effect.
Maybe if I knocked all of y’all heads together?

Latitude
April 20, 2014 12:27 pm

evanmjones says:
April 20, 2014 at 12:22 pm
====
Janice has left the room a long time ago…
and is going on about her own business

Dick of Utah
April 20, 2014 1:05 pm

Willis,
For the next eulogy you post in a public comments forum, I suggest you attach a warning at the end. Something like:
“Ecumenical commentary will not be tolerated as a response to my grief. To put a finer point on it, you can stick it where the sun doesn’t shine.”

milodonharlani
April 20, 2014 1:07 pm

[trimmed]

Ursa Felidae
April 20, 2014 1:13 pm

Perhaps not the best time and place for this comment, but regarding the origin of life, the universe and everything, let me pose this question.
If one is religious, one might be satisfied with the idea that god created all and everything. However, is one is atheist, what is the most satisfactory, scientific explanation for the origin of “life, the universe and everything”?
PS. Serious question, not an offhand reference to any sort of published materials…

Michael Gersh
April 20, 2014 1:24 pm

Willis, you have it almost exactly right when you told the Jesus saleswoman that you “found her actions incredibly crass, insensitive, and unwanted.” I say almost because, there is a certain willfulness, rather than insensivity, to her intrusion. She intended to preach in a place where she was certainly unwanted. That was the entire point. One can go into any church and hear the same, but few people will go hither and yon to tell it to strangers. But to those few, that is what they do. The reason she has not been back is because she has most likely been on to many other sites to sell her version of God wherever she can. This is Easter, after all, the anniversary of the very day their dead guy showed up at his own funeral.
But. The one thing that gets me about proselytizers is, while they go on and on about saving YOUR soul, the soul they are about saving is their own.
I have religion. I was born to it. I like some of the traditions, especially the part dealing with funerals. We are close to the corpse. The relatives and friends wash the body, and dress him/her for burial. We bury them in a plain pine box – rickety, almost like an orange crate. All attendees can see a tiny bit, at least the shroud, between the slats. Then we all help shovel the dirt over the deceased. Then we have a party. I buried both my parents in this way. I think it’s the right way. When one of my coreligionists insists on an expensive bronze box and an antiseptic burial, I say nothing. It is their loss.
My religion does not proselytize. In fact, if you wanted to convert, to become one of us, our priest would have to try to convince you not to do that three separate times. I, and we, find proselytizing to be unseemly, but we see it all around us. Many religions are all about seeking converts. The Christians are very pushy on this. But you should give them a little slack. They are under oppression all over the world these days. They are getting killed and worse every day. This is apparently new to them, but at least they have the certain knowledge that they will be in heaven with Jesus once their ticket is ounched. But in my religion we have been oppressed, and killed in the streets, for a long, long time – so we are sort of used to this. And we do not have the comfort of a guaranteed afterlife. I am a Jew. So was Jesus Christ. Go figure.

milodonharlani
April 20, 2014 1:24 pm

Ursa Felidae says:
April 20, 2014 at 1:13 pm
Positing a Creator doesn’t answer those questions satisfactorily. Indeed, it stops asking how at least life & the universe occurred.
The origin of life is different from the origin of the universe. Its details have yet to be worked out & may never be precisely, but it’s not mysterious. Organic compounds self organize. It is no accident that the space between stacked PAHs just happens to be same distance as between bases attaching in a ribose chain, for instance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAH_world_hypothesis
As it so happens, water ice is a good substrate for the formation of RNA, which is capable of both replication & catalyzing chemical reactions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis
Why there should be one universe, an infinite number of them or one of infinite extent are questions not answered by the God Hypothesis, any more than saying it is simply a property of space-time that matter & energy may exist in or on it.
The God Hypothesis can’t be ruled out in the present state of scientific understanding, & also may never be. Thus being an atheist rather than purely agnostic calls for some faith, however less elaborately so than belief in a Creator of some kind.

April 20, 2014 1:27 pm

Willlis, you have ‘apologised for using a sledgehammer but not for swatting the fly’, to use your own words and you are hoping or waiting for an apology from Janice, again your own words. Doesn’t take a genious, keeping up with the comments to get what I meant. You are now deliberately misreading/misrepresenting my meaning and claiming I look foolish – well, perhaps the truth will shame you into behaving.
I have followed your ‘creative misrepresentation of her comment and I do consider that you are as good as lying, if not worse. I have already given a more representative analogy of her position, being as objective as I could, about what she wrote.
The adjectives you are using are so over the top as to be incredulous imo.
The moslem christian argument is so out of context and incomparable to the Janice issue.
You profess to get your best advice from death, listen to him, the criminal, Janice basically suggested you look at life for your advice/mentoring, which is a comment I would have/made. She wrote comments that were pertinent in their own right and gave a bible reference. So? No different to quoting a poem and its author or some such. She nor I jammed religion down your throat or hijacked your hard worked creative powerpiece or preached a sermon, or tried to convert you, nothing in the middle of your eulogy. Or did Janice come round and knock on your front door
At a moslem occasion you know they have a faith, Only the foolish would preach and try to convert to something different – we are already way off course now re the janice issue as in she most certainly did none of the above, the way you have misrepresented and twisted her comment and its meaning. She basically said you were wise to listen to death up to a point, but that it would not give you joy or love or hope, she said you should listen to the life, the living stuff for joy, hope, love, or words to that effect, it was only then Janice wrote:
“For hope, you must listen to Life.
How can one do this?
In case you might be interested in the answer I found to that question,
there is only one Life Who can change despair to hope (and I mean enduring, rock-solid, unshakeable hope), the one who said: “I am the way, the truth, and the life… .” John 14:6.
…”
that is hijacking? preaching? sermon? jamming religion down throats, trying to convert (a moslem?) riding and stealing the power of your creative effort eulogy for her own ends? and other inaccurate outrageous claims you have made?
Absolutely NOT – Shame on you.
Did you play the song she linked, NO? Perhaps you should listen to it and then you’ll have something else to twist and turn out of context and creatively misrepresent so you can have a deep hatred of faith antiperistaltic motion and cleansing of life – and go listen to death’s advice.
What a load of bollox.

Evan Jones
Editor
April 20, 2014 1:33 pm

Thanks, Evan, you always bring up interesting points.
It is my genuinely high regard for you that makes it worth the while.
Would my motive make any difference to how how your face felt? Would it change the now-distorted shape of your nose? Would knowing my motives reduce your medical bills?
No. Not at all. Not even a little. I agree with much of the rest of what you say as well.
But consider this:
One time back in the 1980s I tripped someone up and sent him flying and he came crashing down on the pavement.
My motive was that I was thwarting a robbery.

Evan Jones
Editor
April 20, 2014 1:41 pm

Latitude says:
April 20, 2014 at 12:27 pm (Edit)
Janice has left the room a long time ago…
and is going on about her own business

I know. You may want to check out what she said on the Open Thread . . .

Latitude
April 20, 2014 1:47 pm

saw it all…

Evan Jones
Editor
April 20, 2014 1:49 pm

Then you know how she feels about all this. “Good” isn’t the word.

Latitude
April 20, 2014 1:57 pm

and is going on about her own business…

Gunga Din
April 20, 2014 2:02 pm

evanmjones says:
April 20, 2014 at 12:22 pm
I am now contemplating a more practical solution to all this. Something that combines the virtues of motive and desired effect.
Maybe if I knocked all of y’all heads together?

===================================================================
You’d hear a hollow sound.
Janice reached out a hand to help and pulled back a bloody stump,
She’s done here. So am I.
Willis, really, condolences.
Enjoy the memory of your friend. It may take awhile before you can think of him and not feel pain but you will get to where you can “tell stories about him” and laugh. That’s what happened with me after my Mom and then after my Dad died but those days will come.

David Ball
April 20, 2014 2:14 pm

Just want to say thank you to all for completely ignoring my comment. It says more than you would like it to.

Philemon
April 20, 2014 2:15 pm

My condolences on you and your family’s loss. Your account was moving and personal. I’m glad that you were there for your friend and your wife, especially with all the ensuing absurdity inherent in death. Death is no respecter of persons, no matter what religion or lack thereof.

Evan Jones
Editor
April 20, 2014 2:19 pm

I read it. I did not comment on it. But, FWIW, my sympathies are with you.

Evan Jones
Editor
April 20, 2014 2:24 pm

and is going on about her own business…
Fortunately. And in a more proper venue.
Yet she feels very badly about all this.

David Ball
April 20, 2014 2:24 pm

A lot has changed on this blog in the last 6 months. Dare to explain?

Latitude
April 20, 2014 2:30 pm

Yet she feels very badly about all this….
Well yeah!
You know how global warming believers are always trying to paint skeptics as unstable, neurotic, immature, psycho, loons?
…I’m glad we proved them wrong

Evan Jones
Editor
April 20, 2014 2:31 pm

Mmmm. I don’t think I take your meaning. I have been so busy on analysis for the surfacestations paper, I haven’t had time for much commenting. Yesterday and today are an exception. But if you will elucidate I will engage.

Evan Jones
Editor
April 20, 2014 2:40 pm

Latitude says:
April 20, 2014 at 2:30 pm (Edit)

It was Willis I was concerned about. He wasn’t feeling so good, either.
One thing for sure is that there are all sorts on both (to be simplistic) sides of the debate. I accept that as a given. I am certain that many of the more moderate alarmists often cringe at what some of their more extreme brethren propound. But, bottom line, we are winning this shindig by attrition. Seems to me we should be aiming outward rather than inward, that’s all.

Latitude
April 20, 2014 2:45 pm

yep, but we both know we should have won this a long time ago…
They are united….we let silly diversions get in our way

David Ball
April 20, 2014 2:45 pm

Glad you are still working on surfacestations project. I think it is extremely important.
I fear that something has influenced WUWT? on a base level.
An example of which I speak is your posts. As you know, I have been a faithful reader here for quite some time. I have noticed a sea change in your posts. As an example, your defence of James Hansen. An astrophysicist who thinks that Venus is an example of “runaway greenhouse”. Completely false. All his “scenarios” are way off the mark. His advocacy is the exact opposite of science.
This is very different that the evanmjones I had come to know.
Just the tip of the iceberg. What gives?

Evan Jones
Editor
April 20, 2014 2:53 pm

yep, but we both know we should have won this a long time ago…
Not too easy. We got off to a poor start. Heck, even Anthony was with them at first. The dynamics were against us. If it hadn’t been for the Moscow of the Hockey stick and the Stalingrad of Climategate, I shudder to imagine what the outcome would have been. But we’re post-Kursk (AR5) at this stage, and looking forward to the Destruction of Army Group Center. Not even a Manstein, Kleist, or Model (sic) can save them now.
They are united….we let silly diversions get in our way
True. But coalitions can be their own worst enemies in the long run. They are splitting at the seams, pulling themselves in all sorts of contrary directions. Case in point: AR5. Many saw it as just more reason for gloom. But as far as i can tell, to the skeptics, AR5 is what victory looks like, as we see the wrenchings, the contradictions, the stretchings. Like a torpedoed ship preparing for the final plunge.

David Ball
April 20, 2014 2:58 pm

Latitude says:
April 20, 2014 at 2:45 pm
“They are united….we let silly diversions get in our way”
“They are united”- correct.
“we let silly diversions get in our way”- incorrect
Some of recognize us that there are huge holes in the science that have yet to be filled in order to make the assumptions and policy that are being made. One of the best things about WUWT? is that no matter what side you are on, you will be taken to task for what you post. The claims that Co2 causes warming in the atmosphere remain unproven. The lab experiments used to show Co2 causes warming represent our atmosphere in no way, shape, or form. The empirical evidence, even when adjusted, do not support the conjecture that Co2 causes warming.
To assume that it does takes us in the wrong direction scientifically. It is why the models do not work. The basic assumptions are wrong.

David Ball
April 20, 2014 2:59 pm

Some of us recognize. Obviously.

Latitude
April 20, 2014 3:00 pm

But that start was also a long time ago…..to use Willis’ analogy….we have the hammer, but we’re too busy swatting flies with it..
We need to pick our battles, there’s 3-4 things that would wipe them out…..we need to focus on the win…not the diversions
We haven’t had time to do this in a long time either…I’m glad you had the day off! LOL

Evan Jones
Editor
April 20, 2014 3:11 pm

Glad you are still working on surfacestations project. I think it is extremely important.
Looks like we’re going to spike them, but good. It will kick the foundation clean out from under thousands of peer-reviewed papers.
I fear that something has influenced WUWT? on a base level.
An example of which I speak is your posts. As you know, I have been a faithful reader here for quite some time. I have noticed a sea change in your posts. As an example, your defence of James Hansen. An astrophysicist who thinks that Venus is an example of “runaway greenhouse”. Completely false. All his “scenarios” are way off the mark. His advocacy is the exact opposite of science.

Ah, a light begins to dawn. My only (and, yes I mean only) defense of Hansen is that his “solution” to our non-problem is safe nukes. That’s the only solution that would have a prayer of not ruining us all.
I have no defense whatever for any of his other activities. I love his scenarios, though — they’re among the better ammunition we have.
This is very different that the evanmjones I had come to know.
Just the tip of the iceberg. What gives?

*Grin* just the softpedal before the final knockdown. That’s all. I was always prone to grant the benefit of the doubt all along, and at least concede they actually believe those things they believe.
One of the reasons WWII went on so long was the unconditional surrender doctrine and block-bombing (talk about your unintended consequences). But I don’t want to stiffen the alarmists’ spines. I want them to defect, as many of them as possible. “Separate Peace”? Bring it on! I don’t want to see Revkin hauling a panzerfaust on Seelowe Heights. I want him working in our labs.
We are going to have to live with these people after all this is over. So no Climate Versailles. We don’t want them to rise, aggrieved, behind some popinjay, 20 years hence, and put us all through this mess again over the next flap, whatever that will be.

Cold in Wisconsin
April 20, 2014 3:21 pm

Wow. Beautifully written article. Makes me want to know more about Willis and his life. And then it got very uncomfortable. Can’t really bring myself to read all of the comments which are usually the most fun. Kind of like witnessing a family fight.
Think of all the authors who have written novels or short stories and then had them analyzed, commented on, picked apart, and essayed to death as a class assignment. Can you imagine if Homer were able to respond in an Internet blog to all of those who have written essays or comments on his work? Blessing or curse? You put your work out there and then it takes on a life of its own.
My thanks to Willis for a beautiful post and to many others who have responded thoughtfully or in a heartfelt way, including Janice and her friends. The world would be very boring if we all thought alike.
REPLY — Now, that’s what I want to see more of. Similar posts I have seen and not commented on, consider yourselves included. ~ Evan

Evan Jones
Editor
April 20, 2014 3:26 pm

But that start was also a long time ago…..to use Willis’ analogy….we have the hammer, but we’re too busy swatting flies with it..
The good news being that they’re running out of flies.

David Ball
April 20, 2014 3:31 pm

Thank you for responding to me, Evan.

Jimbo
April 20, 2014 3:36 pm

Hello! Elvis has left the building. Guess who I’m talking about – it’s not Elvis?

OmegaPaladin
April 20, 2014 3:40 pm

An interesting side story, though I think it is interesting what day you discussed this. Friday the 18th April 2014 is known in the Western Christian tradition as Good Friday, the most somber of holy days, a day of commemoration of death. It’s an extremely important day in the Christian calendar, because it is the setup for the central belief of the Christian faith – Easter, the day of Resurrection, the triumph over death. It’s the answer to question of death for Christians, but death remains as part of the universal human experience. Thus, Good Friday, and the symbol of the cross – which was a method of execution like the firing squad or the noose.
So Death has victory for a few days, but he doesn’t have the last laugh.

Evan Jones
Editor
April 20, 2014 3:44 pm

Maybe so, maybe not. But when I hang up my sticks, I want to be at peace with whatever turns out to be.

Evan Jones
Editor
April 20, 2014 3:48 pm

Hello! Elvis has left the building. Guess who I’m talking about – it’s not Elvis?
Don’t let the rhinestone tux fool you.

Jimbo
April 20, 2014 3:59 pm

OmegaPaladin says:
April 20, 2014 at 3:40 pm
An interesting side story, though I think it is interesting what day you discussed this. Friday the 18th April 2014 is known in the Western Christian tradition as Good Friday, the most somber of holy days, a day of commemoration of death. It’s an extremely important day in the Christian calendar, because it is the setup for the central belief of the Christian faith………

Oh crap! You are in deep trouble my friend.

Rich Lambert
April 20, 2014 4:42 pm

Mr. Willis Eschenbach,
Thank you for sharing this. Sorry about the loss of your father-in-law.

Evan Jones
Editor
April 20, 2014 4:48 pm

David Ball says:
April 20, 2014 at 3:31 pm (Edit)

If you have any other questions, I’ll answer.

April 20, 2014 6:03 pm

Michael Gersh says:
April 20, 2014 at 1:24 pm
….. This is apparently new to them, but at least they have the certain knowledge that they will be in heaven with Jesus once their ticket is ounched. But in my religion we have been oppressed, and killed in the streets, for a long, long time – so we are sort of used to this. And we do not have the comfort of a guaranteed afterlife. I am a Jew. So was Jesus Christ. Go figure.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You of course talk nonsense. Maybe you should pull out Fox’s Book of Martyrs which is about Christian persecution through the ages and that is only the tip of the iceberg. You my friend do not obviously read the Torah (or you do but do not understand). Moses wrote about persecutions of the Jews at the end of the Book of Deuteronomy and he says why.

bushbunny
April 20, 2014 8:13 pm

Getting off Willis’ blog in spirit at the moment, I was relieved when I started university to learn similar minds thought the same as me. “Don’t believe everything you read in books, get the most modern ones as some of the old chronicles can be politically motivated. They were not referring specifically to the Holy Bible or the Koran. Particularly history books. I don’t mind religious people at all, my next door neighbor is an Anglican priest, having been an Ancient History professor. But he is modern and being educated his attitudes are completely different from what some of the fundimentalists and creationists expound continually. (He taught ancient Greek and Latin) Admittedly the Jews have been historically, a scape goat, and punished for not being Christian. And the holocaust, which one there were many. But so were the protestants, women and men who were labelled witches and Roman Catholics in medieval and Elizabethan times, and in UK for a long time Roman Catholics vs protestants was the go.
Politics is always involved somewhere folks don’t forget that, even in ancient times. I think a good saying is people who possess spirituality have been through hell on earth, but religious people behave so they won’t go to hell. If one has suffered in this life for many reasons, be it health, or grief, or disadvantaged background, one becomes sometimes, not always, more compassionate and tolerant to others. There is no absolute, be best to remember that. I tend to believe or think, should any religious person were to see Jesus or some prophet before they died, and was told,
“Sorry there is no paradise or heaven” A good Christian would say “Well it was all worth it”
As a post script and more to the point of this blog. Brandis our Attorney general described the alarmists as acting in a medieval and irrational manner.

Sagebrush Gardener
April 20, 2014 8:24 pm

Willis, dude… has your bitterness made you so blind that you cannot see your own gross hypocrisy and intolerance? You have made more than thirty posts (at last count) angrily expressing your own non-theistic beliefs while you denigrate Janice’s single heartfelt expression of concern as “jam[ming] Jesus down people’s throats”. Who is jamming their beliefs down people’s throats? Is nobody allowed to share their personal beliefs here except you?
As “Dead flies putrefy the perfumer’s ointment and cause it to give off a foul odor” your own hateful reaction to Janice’s sharing of her heartfelt beliefs, followed by your self-justifying non-apology and ongoing diatribe have completely derailed your original post and overshadowed the tribute that you meant to pay to your friend.
In fact, with every post you make you illustrate Janice’s point perfectly. You indeed have the wisdom that comes from knowing that the days of a man are numbered. But on this day that Janice and many others celebrate the defeat of death and the hope of resurrection, you cannot see beyond the grave and you have only bitterness to show for it.

Dr. Doug
April 20, 2014 8:55 pm

Willis,
I too was moved by your essay. I find much wisdom in it, the fruit of love and of passion for life.
As for Janice’s remarks, as her co-religionist I was much embarrassed to read them and apprehensive about how they would be received, by you and by others. Your response has been quite gracious, and I thank you for that. You have expressed well just why her remarks were out of place. You have not picked a fight, and you have shown respect for Christians’ beliefs while explaining reasons that you do not share them.
I have benefitted (I suppose even ‘been blessed’) by your sharing the results of your pursuit of truth, in science and in life, and I would like to engage with you on that basis. Whoever pursues truth and love is pursuing God. The converse holds as well, including for those who call themselves Christians. I am all too aware of the likes of the preacher who gave you a good reason not to follow his religion. I am getting angry that some on this thread may do so as well.

bushbunny
April 20, 2014 8:57 pm

Oh dear, Sagebrush gardener, you are now in the firing line. But you summed up my feelings very well. This has nothing to do with climate change or CO2. It’s about religious beliefs, and how can atheists ever know there is no God or some other life force that generates life, agnostics have an open mind. Personally I do believe in the order of things, i.e. Nature dictates and there are two main forces within us and nature. Creative and destructive, and it is within our personalities too as history as found to be true. We live our lives through conventions thrust on us by politicians, laws and religious leaders. To control the beast in us. Why do we think our civil and criminal laws are more realistic than some religious laws.

Michael Gersh
April 20, 2014 10:05 pm

Steve B says:
April 20, 2014 at 6:03 pm

You of course talk nonsense. Maybe you should pull out Fox’s Book of Martyrs which is about Christian persecution through the ages and that is only the tip of the iceberg. You my friend do not obviously read the Torah (or you do but do not understand). Moses wrote about persecutions of the Jews at the end of the Book of Deuteronomy and he says why.

Steve, you make my point. There is no authority on God. God is something you have within you. If you need to rely upon some ancient text you presuppose that all the knowledge we have about how that text was derived can be described by true believers, but that is nonsense, and all that is known is not the exclusive property of the “true believers.” Not even close to the truth. God is who He is. The priest class has made what they could with it, and they have done a damned good job for themselves. I have no use for the priest class. My relationship is with the diety itself. Your belief system respects an institutional dogma that empowers some, but expressly leaves all the rest of us in hell. I, and others, disagree. But when I write the statements that most irk you, I was relating to modern Christians, not the priest class. Modern Christians have forgotten the middle ages, and seem to have little to say about what is happening today in the moslem world. Sure, Christians are being killed on a daily basis, but in our so-called Christian society we are warned to take no notice of those events, since they are inconvenient to those holding secular power. I was writing to my personal experience. Calling me uninformed misses the point, and fails to address the issue. God is who or what He is. Religion is a purely human construct, formed to aggrandize power to the priest class. You side with them. I do not. I know God. You run a business. Or, at least, a blog, called Ultimate Christianity. Do you even know that “ultimate” means “last?” You word is not the last word. Not for me. Not for Billy. Not for Willis. Not for most of the rest of us.

bushbunny
April 20, 2014 10:08 pm

I am out of this thread. Science should never be thought to have a religious message. Personal bereavements are handled differently and quite honestly Willis you are not alone. How has your family’s and friend’s deaths affected you in the long run? Don’t share I have read enough.

Admin
April 20, 2014 10:14 pm

All you folk demanding Willis accept comfort from the Christian god, know that the one true lord is Venganza, the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
Venganza first revealed his light to Bobby Henderson. In his hour of fury, at Christians who were trying to pervert the teaching of science in Kansas, by pretending their intelligent design nonsense was nondenominational, Bobby received revelation from Venganza, and demanded equal time to teach his version of the creation story.
We now live to spread the word of our tasty lord, to earn our place at his side. Know that Venganza is a jealous lord, and any who do not see his light are doomed to spend their afterlife washing filthy dishes in the kitchens of the pasta restaurant of eternity, serving those whose minds and souls were open to embracing the truth.

April 20, 2014 11:03 pm

Thank you for sharing this Willis. God bless you.

Cold in Wisconsin
April 20, 2014 11:13 pm

I have my own religious or spiritual views which I will keep to myself, however, can we all agree that there are a few basic principles in life upon which most, if not all, can agree? To me it comes down to the fact that there IS both good and evil in the world, and there IS both love and hate. If we focus less on the particular flavor of our spirituality and try to promote the good and the love in ourselves and try to diminish the evil and hateful, the world would be a better place. Where we get in trouble is by deciding who or what other than ourselves is evil or hateful. Who do we control? Who can we improve? Only ourselves. Therefore the purpose of our spirituality should be an exercise in improving ourselves, and not in attempting to improve others. If everyone is busy working on improving themselves, we might actually get somewhere. I am not an expert on all world religions, but my Grandmother told me to “keep your own doorstep clean” and I think she was a very wise woman.
Disclaimer: If anyone thinks I am proselytizing, I apologize profusely in advance, as I am merely trying to share my own personal perspective which you are free to accept or reject as you see fit.

Admin
April 21, 2014 1:26 am

Willis Eschenbach
… Anyhow, that’s my thoughts on the subject. Thank you for yours. And no, I’m not trying to convert anyone to talking to the trees …
I used to apologise to the mushrooms I picked, but they still tasted bl**dy awful… 🙂

Neillusion
April 21, 2014 3:16 am

Willis, you are lying to yourself and those you know will read these comments, creative misrepresentation of another’s words. Sagebrush…. sees it too.
You still persist with the Moslem funeral ‘example’ bs. Well demolished in my last post.
I have a thought that somehow you misinterpreted your guest appearance on this thread as an opportunity for fame and praise of a creative writing exercise eulogy, with no one else allowed to utter a word of anything but praise. I liked the comment of Janice holding out a hand of compassion and pulling back a bloody stump. You animal. You state you are not a heathen looking for a saviour, no, you are worse. You say you see, and claim others can’t.
And you lie to try to make yourself out to be right/justified
You are a drama queen who had a hissy fit because someone invited you to apply a brighter makeup.
Your behaviour in the comment thread is a disgrace and an offence to debate, to open minds, compassionate hearts and the holiest of holies of all, the TRUTH.

Hilary Ostrov (aka hro001)
April 21, 2014 3:56 am

Willis, in your prologue you had “advertised” (for want of a better word) not a “eulogy” as you subsequently – and somewhat belatedly – decided to call your 8,200+ word essay (approximately half of which was about your late father-in-law), but a “perspective on life”. I might have missed it, but I saw no mention in your essay of either your “non-theism” or Billy’s “atheism”.
I certainly get that whenever one loses a close friend or relative other losses – the pain of which might have faded somewhat over time – are brought to mind, along with thoughts of our own mortality.
Consequently, like some others I found your “reading” of Janice’s single comment addressed to you to be wildly over the top and completely unwarranted.
Since you claimed to have “apologized” to Janice, I went back through the thread looking for any of your words that might approximate an “apology” to Janice. I found none, at least none that struck me as being particularly sincere.
Unfortunately what I did find were your ever-escalating fantasies. Beginning with your baseless accusations that she was “hijacking [your] thread”, “plagiarizing and worse” and “twisting [your] words”. And culminating in your ludicrous repeated accusations that she was “seeking converts”, “giving a sermon” and “proselytizing”.
Not to mention your – by now, IMHO, far too familiar pattern of – flying off the handle and browbeating those whose comments were not as full of adulation and agreement as you appear to believe you deserve.
To be honest, I’m not entirely sure which I find more disheartening and disappointing, Willis. Your actions towards Janice or the rather conspicuous absence of any acknowledgement on your part of the recollection of the losses that others have shared, For example, weathep’s loss of a child [April 19, 2014 at 2:45 am] whose pain one can feel four years later, and Snowsnake’s very recent loss of his wife of 48 years [April 19, 2014 at 6:10 am].
Or is it the case that in your view the stories of their respective losses were not as “crafted” and “powerful” as your own and therefore not deserving of your acknowledgement, because you have more important things to write about, like rationalizing your actions, over and over and over again..
I would offer my condolences, Willis. However, in the tradition of my faith I have always done so by wishing those in mourning long life. So I shall refrain, lest you find my words to be of no comfort, an “unwelcome intrusion” on your grief, and an “attempt to proselytize”.

Neillusion
April 21, 2014 4:37 am

Hilary, it was Anthony that referred to Willis’s guest essay as a perspective on life. It detracts not from your point and the other points you make.
I’m glad to see someone else take the trouble to stand up for the truth (Willis’s ever-escalating fantasies) and try to bring him to account.

RusQ
April 21, 2014 5:49 am

Thanks Willis,
a fine perspective, and I do value it!
Growing up on ‘a farm in africa’, pest and pestilence have challenged me resources many times.
The ‘reaper’ has many aspects – somehow, your account lifts the spirit – that is good.
However (and I fully understand why you did not go there, even while you may have first hand experience), the emotions evoked by having snuffed others, almost killed me. War, negligence, driving ‘intoxicated’ – the list is looong…
The thread is two days old (for me anyways),
best always.

johanna
April 21, 2014 6:08 am

I expressed my support for Janice in the O/T, which she has acknowledged and thanked me for, as doing it here just invites more diatribes. But then, more blue bully-pulpit self-justification appeared.
Comparing her to a dollar-chasing mortician, someone who bursts in one someone else’s funeral with unwelcome words (presumably like those dickheads who vandalise the funerals of deceased soldiers), a Jehovah’s Witness on the doorstep (a proselytiser), while describing oneself as “passionate” and “complex” and a wonderful craftsman of prose says a lot more about Willis than it does about Janice. This is not surprising, as he has used at least 20 times as many words attacking her as the length of her original comment, which may have been poorly targeted but which no fair person would say contained a shred of ill-will..
It must be great to be your own moderator on WUWT.

RusQ
April 21, 2014 6:26 am

and I fail to see what religion (of any description) can add to the discussion?
no?
believes being what it is…

PaulH
April 21, 2014 6:37 am

… lung cancer’s not a good way to go
My father lost his battle with lung cancer in the 1980’s. Of all the ways to shuffle off this mortal coil, lung cancer has to be one of the worst.

RusQ
April 21, 2014 6:48 am

“Of all the ways to shuffle off this mortal coil, lung cancer has to be one of the worst..”
Yam all ears, what would be the bestest option, in your opinion??
unless we stay???

John Whitman
April 21, 2014 7:16 am

Willis Eschenbach says:
April 20, 2014 at 11:59 am
Absolutely not, John. You’ve missed the point entirely. What she did was to give a Christian sermon at a eulogy for an atheist, and try to convert me to her faith. I did nothing of the sort.

– – – – – – – – – –
Willis,
My point is you both are portraying emotions around a human condition that confronts all humans with the reality of deaths of others.
I do not see the emotions involved being fundamentally different. I think you both have equivalent emotions in this matter. Emotions are not cognitive tools, so one of you is not right in articulating the emotion and the other wrong by articulating the same emotion a different way. She (Janice) expresses hers in a pro forma religious articulation of death inducing emotion that another person does not appreciate, yes she did that. Someone maybe doesn’t like your articulation of emotional expression, yes it is a possibility. One’s dislike of another’s expression does not invalid the similar emotion felt by the other.
How one deals with emotions caused by another’s death is an intriguing topic and I thank you for bringing it up in ‘Billy’. I see a tendency in many people to deal with death on some kind of ‘human-kind is one’ or ’all life is one’ level. That, I think, is the purpose of mythology in the human psyche.
John

RusQ
April 21, 2014 7:34 am

John Whitman,
“That, I think, is the purpose of mythology in the human psyche.”
Kindly forgive my inability to quote with bells and whistles…
Can you harbour diametrically misaligned ideas all at once?
My curse, kinda drives me crazy…
often….

John Whitman
April 21, 2014 7:50 am

RusQ says:
April 21, 2014 at 7:34 am
Whitman said “That, I think, is the purpose of mythology in the human psyche.”
Kindly forgive my inability to quote with bells and whistles…
Can you harbour diametrically misaligned ideas all at once?
My curse, kinda drives me crazy…
often….

– – – – – – – – – –
RusQ,
That is a profound question.
I am side stepping it to talk about mythology, and I hope that is acceptable to you. Maybe others will address your question? : )
Mythology is a body of stories. The key word is stories.
John

Evan Jones
Editor
April 21, 2014 7:52 am

I saved this for the weekend, when people who might read this would likely be more relaxed.
The best-laid schemes o’ mice an’ men
Gang aft agley

RusQ
April 21, 2014 7:58 am

Ha John!
Sure is acceptable 🙂
Me have 7 dogs to take for a walk, halfway, we stop and we exchange “stories”.
Tell me one, then listen to mine 🙂

johanna
April 21, 2014 8:09 am

Evan, stop prevaricating. It was not the writing, but the extended, approved by the blog owner, and inaccurate monstering of someone who had the temerity to upset (accidentally) a self-absorbed jerk that caused the problem here.

Grumpy
April 21, 2014 8:15 am

Willis,
I think that when I die there is nothing afterwards. But, needless to say, I take some comfort from thinking that those who have died are somehow still around me. I guess that is what religion is all about, but I don’t mean to get into that debate.
As people of the sea, I hope you might like the reading I gave at my mother’s funeral over five years ago;
What is dying? I am standing on the sea shore. A ship spreads her white sails to the morning breeze and starts for the ocean. She is an object of beauty and I stand watching her till at last she fades on the horizon, and then someone at my side says; “She is gone.” Gone where? Gone from my sight, that is all; she is just as large in the masts, hull and spars as she was when I saw her, and just as able to bear her load of living freight to its destination.
The diminished size and total loss of sight is in me, not in her; and just at the moment when someone at my side says; “She is gone”, there are others who are watching her coming, and other voices take up a glad shout: “There she comes!” And that is dying.
(source unknown)

RusQ
April 21, 2014 8:22 am

“a self-absorbed jerk that caused the problem here”
me have a somewhat loud bird (Hadeda) in me ears – trust you, dear Johanna, may have something goodish to waste energy on?

April 21, 2014 8:30 am

If there’s any “monstering” going on in this thread, it’s the concern trolls going after Willis.
You want a Willis doll that you can mold and fit into your self absorbed bubbles.
You stir the pot and stir some more and stir yet again. Then you come and whine, whine, whine about how many words he’s written. You’re so eager to type but apparently aren’t doing much reading or thinking.

RusQ
April 21, 2014 8:49 am

why did I ended here!?

John Whitman
April 21, 2014 9:13 am

johanna says:
April 21, 2014 at 8:09 am
Evan, stop prevaricating. It was not the writing, but the extended, approved by the blog owner, and inaccurate monstering of someone who had the temerity to upset (accidentally) a self-absorbed jerk that caused the problem here.

– – – – – – – – –
johanna,
If you are chumming the intellectual waters here to catch your self-imagined monsters, then I can understand your use of some hysterical intellectual bait to make your chum.
Did you look under your bed this morning to make sure the monsters weren’t there?
John

RusQ
April 21, 2014 9:27 am

Kinda Crazy, maybe….
right about now, I will walk DOWN THE STREET…
9 OUTA 10, is where real pipples exist – have NO prollem talking “stories:”
You have some also?
That is good..

Mark Fraser
April 21, 2014 9:36 am

A good friend, who died some years ago, was to be honored at a service in a rather fundamentalist church which his family had recently joined. I was totally disgusted when the pastor, instead of delivering any kind of eulogy, seized the opportunity to preach and recruit new “converts” from the very large crowd. Most of us found other ways to celebrate George’s life and his enrichment of ours.

johanna
April 21, 2014 9:46 am

“f you are chumming the intellectual waters here to catch your self-imagined monsters, then I can understand your use of some hysterical intellectual bait to make your chum.
Did you look under your bed this morning to make sure the monsters weren’t there?
John”
_________________________
What does this mean?
Meanwhile, we are just waiting for the bright blue bully pulpit to remind of us of what a great, sensitive writer he is (perhaps comparable to Hemingway) and that therefore he is exculpated of relentlessly bullying a single female commenter for dozens of posts.
What a hero!

RusQ
April 21, 2014 9:47 am

There is a party less than 30 degrees over my ‘left shoulder’ – angles has their place, no?
LOL – still laterz..

April 21, 2014 9:52 am

You posted a eulogy on a science blog, which to me indicates an invitation to debate anything of scientific worth, or not, that it brings up. Evidence for life after death seems fair discussion topic, on a science blog, which is refreshingly brave to bring the topic up. However I don’t really see this as a place for that combination of brain chemicals called sentimentalism, sorry, my bad.
Willis: all of my comments apply to a non-theist as well as an atheist.
For example, logically Objective Good only exists if there is something to BE the definition of good. Which is either God, or not. You say not, and so in the absence of anything to BE the definition of Good, you cannot use that term in anything other than an arbitrary and ultimately meaningless sense.
Scripture says, that God is good, and His love endures forever. This statement is made as an observation by those who have encountered him. I personally add my own small witness to that statement.
You asked for a definition of love: Love is is real, because there exists a non-physical realm in which Love has a being, a substance and consciousness. You can converse with Love (see below), and Love will always speak benevolently, and in a fatherly manner towards you. Scripture tells us that “God is Love”. Love is real and can be encountered, and experienced, as a being (see below). Our view of this non-physical realm is through our emotions, within which cause and effect are just as evident as in the physical realm.
If you deny the non-physical realm which I propose in which Love has a real form, then you are saying that it is illusory, or is a mere meme, and so to the non-theist, love does not exist really. Its a load of hot air about a concept which is a mere idea.
Let us say for sake of argument, that the purpose of life is training for something, training to be appreciative of Love, (i.e. God), in order to be able to survive and thrive in an eternal domain which consists of Love, then completing that training is cause for celebration.
The non-theist has no idea what the purpose of life is, and denies any such purpose so has no reason to celebrate its completion. At least you are consistent on that point.
Put it another way.
A successful life and death is a triumph, a lasting eternal victory over adversity, which fulfils a grand purpose. Any other view of death turns life into a sick joke, along the lines of “Life’s a bitch and then you die.” which is all the sicker because no one is laughing.
Willis is trying to have the middle ground… which I am at pains to point out is illogical. So on Easter Saturday, we have a post which says “life’s basically ok and then you die which is a bitch, but hey look on the bright side, there isn’t one, but since dying is a bitch, at least we can be happy that life is basically ok for some… until you die”
Janice tried gently to nudge things off the fence in a positive direction. At which point Willis flew aggressively against her. I point out that someone who has positive answer to a genuine problem may just be worth listening to.
I point towards the existence of scientific data points which substantiate the veracity of Jesus’ offer. Then I get slammed too.
I point out the logical inconsistencies in the original posters apparent world view… slammed again.
Willis points out that there are lots of religions… I should then point out that ONLY one man walked the earth as God (“the Word become flesh”) and addressed this actual problem and defeated death for us, which is very cool!
I am kind of stuck here in this discussion now, so I think this is the end of it for me: I met Jesus, I cant unmeet him. I have seen visions of my departed in heaven living it up, I can’t un-see those visions. I have 10+ years worth of records of Jesus speaking to people and healing them, I can’t un-record this data.
All I have left is to offer is actual data from what is essentially an oft-repeated scenario.
So let me throw in an actual piece of evidence, a chat conversation as it happened, in fairly raw form: Jez is a young lad, he has no religious affiliation or previous church attendance. Note the lack of suggestion and coaching and the rigorous use of qualitative measurements.
Transcript
Helper: Hi Jez, u ok?
Jez : yeah my friend has fallen out with me
Helper: or you fell out with him?
Helper: y?
Jez : he fell out with me because i was told by some one on fb to put a status about him and slag him off or the person will kick my head in
Helper: oh thats not good
Jez : i have tried to contact him he has blocked me
Helper: I will help you to sort this out
Helper: Would you be up for praying about it?
Session Start
Helper: how do you feel about being bullied?
Jez : upset
Helper: ok, when was the first time you felt upset like this
Jez : when i was bullied at school
Helper: so in that memory how did you feel?
Jez : upset
Helper: why?
Helper: any reason in particular
Helper: Lord Jesus, God, I ask you to help Jez to express himself.
Jez : because i was beaten up and bullied at school
Helper: can you list the emotions for me

Jez : emotions i felt was depressed sad angry
Helper: ok, well done
Helper: Have you fully expressed the anger you felt?
Jez : yeah
Helper: how much anger was there out of 10, where 0 is none and 10 is lots?
Jez : 8
Helper: ok, would you be willing to ask the Lord Jesus what he wants you to do with this anger?
Jez : yeah
Helper: Excellent, Lord Jesus what would you like Jez to do with this anger?
Jez : he said to send it to the cross to be destroyed
Helper: ok, Lord Jesus we pray sending Jez’s anger to the cross of Jesus to be destroyed there in his body.
Jez : its gone
Helper: Out of 10?
Jez : 2
Helper: Lord Jesus could you help Jez understand why there is still 2/10 left?
Jez : because i need to sort it out with my friend
Helper: Ah ok, how do you feel hearing that?
Jez : i feel better which i will sort it out but how
Helper: I will talk to him for you
Jez : ok thanks Helper
Helper: So, that means that out of that 8, anger, 6 came form the past memory, and 2 from the present one.
Jez : yeah
Helper: Lets look at the next emotion, you said you felt sad, how much sadness out of 10?
Jez : 9
Helper: ok, how do you feel about asking the Lord what to do with it?
Jez : yeah
Helper: Lord Jesus Jez has lots of sadness to do with being bullied, what would you like him to do with that sadness?
Jez : it needs to be destroyed
Helper: How Lord?
Jez : it needs to sent to the cross to be destroyed
Helper: Jez, do you think you could do it this time? (type here)
Jez : yeah lord jesus i pray to send my sadness to the cross to be destroyed
Helper: Yay, nice one
Jez : i did it
Helper: and how much sadness is there now out of 10?
Jez : 0
Helper: Ok, the next emotion was “depressed”, how much is that out of 10?
Jez : 10
Helper: Lord Jesus what would you like Jez to know about his depression feeling?
Jez : that i need to go counselling
Helper: Lord Why does Jez need to go for counselling?
Jez : so i can let it out
Helper: ok
Helper: How do you feel about that idea Jez?
Jez : but he said i can speak to you if I feel it could be beneficial
Helper: OK that makes sense.
Jez : yeah
Helper: So lots of depression there at the moment
Helper: Lord what should we do next?
Jez : yeah it has gone down to a 5
Jez : the lord said to send it to the cross to be destroyed
Helper: Did you do it?
Jez : yeah
Helper: Well done mate!
Helper: So in that memory of being bullied is it peaceful and calm?
Jez : yeah
Helper: Any negative emotions?
Helper: How do you feel about the facebook situation now?
Jez : i feel better
Willis: If you maintain your world view then, your sadness is merely a product of chemicals in the brain, try different combinations of drugs and alcohol.
Alternatively, if you will pray asking the Lord to absorb your sadness from you into his body on the cross to be destroyed there he will happily do so. Just as the Lord Jesus directly instructed Jez (with no suggestion from any other source)
Janice and I were only trying to be helpful, and this transcript is the best I can do to show the reality of what I am saying, that God outside of time, has provided an earthly mechanism for dealing with the reality of the sadness you feel at your loss.

Neillusion
April 21, 2014 9:55 am

@ robert willis
such avoidance is telling – concern trolls going after willis?
Willis has employed the same tactics & creative misrepresentation of ‘data’ that the AGW proponents do. Essentially lying and twisting and using bogus example – so blatant. And he did it to a lovely soul who invited him, if he was interested, to share the way she found hope in life – compared to Willis’s ridiculous comment ‘best advice he receives is from death’, the grim reaper over his shoulder, criminal he cites at the beginning of his guest essay.
Willis is full of bs and trying to preach, in the creative writing/wordsmithing he claims to be particularly good at, a type of wounded, poor me, blame Janice and all the Jesus nuts who do this that and the other and don’t understand non–theism/sts or what have you. He claims at length to have done buddhism, and a variety of other thinking/reading/practicing efforts.
Nah, don’t buy any of it – he’s a conceited verbal thug who beat up on Janice and persists with his anti Christ do-gooders at a eulogy (or anywhere) rhetoric, as loud as you like with creative misrepresentation/ false context/ exaggeration/pseudo-intellectual, poor me babble.
I’m sorry but it is the TRUTH, something sadly lacking in his dialogue.

Neillusion
April 21, 2014 10:19 am

safeprayer, you are wasting your time. Willis has an agenda triggered by Janice who was an excuse for the real Willis to rise and further practice his wordsmithing and denouncment of Christian motives. He has obviously long sought the vehicle and opportunity to do so and now we can’t stop him! How long is it taking to stop the AGW’s who employ same tactics?
I’d like to see his ego subside and a humble apology to Janice (he wants one from her) – but more than this I’d like to see his ability to acknowledge fact and truth and the distance between same and his writing here.
I’ve persisted at him for the sake of the truth, which he will not acknowledge or respect.

John Whitman
April 21, 2014 10:23 am

Imagine . . . .
A very old man dies then a few years later his life long and also very old wife dies. They both called themselves Christians for their whole life right to the very end. They both came from very very large families and they themselves produced a very very large family.
The family included Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Asian Muslims, pagans and people who had none of those kinds of beliefs/faith/spirituality. The old man and old woman loved them all equally and with respect. They considered themselves very rich to have them. When the old couple visited the homes of their grownup family, they of course respected the rituals and practices even when not Christian ones.
In the spirit of the old couple’s respect for all the family, when the family celebration was held honoring them after their deaths, the family members who weren’t Christians (~40%) were encouraged to express their sentiments not as Christians would, but in their own cultural/religious way. No one complained as that was the way the old couple had conducted the family affairs when they were alive. Perhaps some were zealous in their expressions at the celebration? Absolutely. Maybe the zealousness would concern an outsider’s sensibilities, but to experienced insiders (family) it was what the family was expected to be like over the many wonderful years of the old couple’s life.
The above is partly (mostly) autobiographically derived . . . . . : )
John

Neillusion
April 21, 2014 10:33 am

@ Willis
“And why should I not compare her to a proselytizer? THAT’S WHAT SHE DID! She gave a Christian sermon, quoted the Bible, and tried to convert me to Christianity. How on earth is that not proselytizing? Are you following this story?”
this seems to be the basis from which you antipreaching preach or is that preach antipreaching…
anyway
1 She did not give a sermon – as I highlighted to you long ago, she agreed you could learn something from death but only so much and you couldn’t get joy, hope or love from death, as you were wordsmithing about. She said she had found a way to find same and, if you were interested, shared that way.
2 She quoted the bible? dear me Willis, wisdom is found all over the place, some in poems, some in books, Christ had swath of it, my God, even you have written some in your creative writing guest essay. Because it is in the bible it is bad? She quoted a pertinent wise piece and gave the reference, happened to be from the bible, but could have been a number of philosophers, poems owhy
3 she tried to convert you to Christianity? You serious? Come on! did she knock on your door, ask you to do something, anything? Again, she basically said she’d found a way to have hope joy and love, and to read on if you were interested, she didn’t even ask you to read what she had found!
Bring it on Willis, I love debunking bullshit

RomanM
April 21, 2014 10:51 am

Isn’t it about time to pull the plug on the continuing religiosity of the ever-so-preachy safepreyer and his illusory compatriot? Lord save us from the missionaries…
This is a good example of why religion (and personal political leanings) should be summarily excised from any thread.

John Whitman
April 21, 2014 10:55 am

johanna says:
April 21, 2014 at 9:46 am

“f you are chumming the intellectual waters here to catch your self-imagined monsters, then I can understand your use of some hysterical intellectual bait to make your chum.
Did you look under your bed this morning to make sure the monsters weren’t there?
John”

_________________________
What does this mean?
Meanwhile, we are just waiting for the bright blue bully pulpit to remind of us of what a great, sensitive writer he is (perhaps comparable to Hemingway) and that therefore he is exculpated of relentlessly bullying a single female commenter for dozens of posts.
What a hero!

– – – – – – – – – –
Johanna,
It means your indirectly implied monster, whom you exclaim is ‘monstering’ (making a monster of)Janice, only exists in your own mind.
Your initiation of hero usage is suggestive. Are you the heroine in your own mind wrt saving Janice from Wills? How nice.
John

Neillusion
April 21, 2014 11:00 am

@Willis, I am astonished you can write ‘it doesn’t match the facts’
Janice wrote:….
“…
Most importantly, Death, while wise, cannot give you hope.
Do you realize how COOL it is to KNOW where your soul is going when you die? THAT is peace, man, powerful peace.
For hope, you must listen to Life.
How can one do this?
In case you might be interested in the answer I found to that question,…..’
So Willis, there you go, and your 1,2,3 as above post, factually, proven bullshit.
But twist away, Sermon indeed, lol, Tried to convert you!?! Quoted the bible !!!! OMG

tonybclimatereason
Editor
April 21, 2014 11:03 am

Willis
You wrote a lovely piece which has now been overshadowed by the fall out from an unfortunate response to Janice, for which you have expressed regrets..
Wouldn’t it be best to call it a day and stop further comments, as happens with all WUWT threads after a certain period of time has elapsed?
tonyb.

John Whitman
April 21, 2014 11:17 am

Willis,
I think Janice might have considered herself part of a WUWT family when she made her first comment. I have no doubt Janice would not intentionally insult the WUWT family who (by my perception) she cherishes.
John

Neillusion
April 21, 2014 11:23 am

romanm, your comment is rather ignorant of the facts here, which if you’d followed any of my comments, you would see I have gone after the truth with Willis, my posts have been nothing to do with relligion, at all.
what on earth motivated you to comment as you did? So wrong, I’m embarrassed for you.

davideisenstadt
April 21, 2014 11:33 am

Neillusion says:
April 21, 2014 at 11:23 am
I dont think Im alone when i express my desire that you please just drop it.
really now. just stop.
I dont ever criticize those who wish to deify a dead jew. but youre just piling on, and its tired already.

Ursa Felidae
April 21, 2014 11:37 am

milodonharlani says:
April 20, 2014 at 1:24 pm
thanks for responding. I should have been more specific, but I was hoping more would care to enlighten, but it is not my thread.
In response, I say it is indeed plausible that life began from inorganic sources. Perhaps this process was put in place by a god entity to ensure life was natural to this planet and highly adaptable.
But where did the first dust mote originate. That to me, is the question of questions. Cosmological meditations that haunt my soul….

Neillusion
April 21, 2014 11:47 am

@david…
:::?????deify a dead jew?
I’m just having it out with Willis over lying and his treatment of Janice.
She did none of what he claimed and persists with – so I persist with the truth – it does out.
His juvenile sidestepping and wordsmithing in the comments are an insult.

RomanM
April 21, 2014 11:49 am

davideisenstadt says:
April 21, 2014 at 11:33 am
I dont think Im alone when i express my desire that you please just drop it.
really now. just stop.

Amen to that!

milodonharlani
April 21, 2014 11:53 am

Ursa Felidae says:
April 21, 2014 at 11:37 am
Life arose from organic sources, as in organic chemical compounds, which means those containing carbon. That’s not just plausible, but an observable fact.
Cosmic dust (ie, matter) exists in our universe because its physical laws allow, indeed require it, to exist here.
Life is not composed of motes, however, but chemicals created in stars powered by the fusion of H into He, followed by nucleosynthesis. These chemicals then form compounds, some very complex & capable of self-organization, leading to replication & metabolism, ie life.

April 21, 2014 12:02 pm

It’s pretty clear that Neillusion needs this thread to build up his ego.
He earlier declared he “demolished” Willis. When no one gave hm a pat on the head for his invisible achievement he had to come back and remind us what a mean keyboard stroker he is.
Willis has explained his viewpoint – repeatedly. He has apologized for his overreaction – repeatedly.
The only reason this thread continues on is because the mob, in true alarmist fashion, pretends Willis has done neither.

Neillusion
April 21, 2014 12:13 pm


yeah, twist away robert, go for the ego nerve-end. You are as clueless as some others here about what has been said in the comments, what lies willis has persisted with to justify his reaction to Janice. Still if he won’t admit it, and you won’t inform yourself/admit it, what can I do? does he still want an apology from Janice?
Sermon, convert, quoted bible – balderdash, I’m still amused at those.
I thought I’d been quite objective here, and you go for the ego?
mmm, you think that’s air you’re breathing? MatrixI

Neillusion
April 21, 2014 12:19 pm

willis, here you go again…
I object to her actions. I don’t care if she was trying to “help” me, using my time of grief as an excuse to read a Christian sermon, tell me I’ve got it all wrong about death, and try to convert me to Jesus was crass, insensitive, intrusive, pushy, patronizing, proselytizing, and underhanded.
Janice did/was none of these, this is a lie.
No sermon.
She actually agreed with you about death upto a limit she expanded on.
she did not try to convert you to Jesus
it was crass, etc, pushy????????????????????
You actually believe this bs willis?
You need help, take Robert along with you.

Gary Hladik
April 21, 2014 12:24 pm

RusQ says (April 21, 2014 at 6:48 am): ‘“Of all the ways to shuffle off this mortal coil, lung cancer has to be one of the worst..”
Yam all ears, what would be the bestest option, in your opinion??’
The obvious answer, from a “naughty” children’s ditty no less, is
Go to bed, wake up dead.. 🙂
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=495198
The variant sung in my social circle was “Remco suffocation”, inspired by this toy commercial:

April 21, 2014 12:29 pm

RomanM: This is a science blog, science is about starting with logic, collecting observations and making interpretations. Censorship has no part in science. [I was an atheist for 20+ years myself, I followed this path of honest enquiry]
You apparently believe, that out of nothing everything comes. — illogical!
I believe that this universe is a slice out of an altogether bigger pie, thats what the laws of science, and coincidently theology, tell us.
Sometimes it is necessary to call people out when they logically contradict themselves.
You appear prepared to censor every scientist with any faith, in which case you would have no science left. bye Newton, Pascal,….
Man cannot do science on Voltaire alone.
I call Willis on being sentimental, while at the same time espousing a world view that has no room for sentimentalism, and being angry and hurt and telling other people they are wrong while espousing a world view which doesn’t believe that emotions or consequences, or for that matter right and wrong are real or defined.
Willis in your world view, nothing I do or you do makes any difference at all to the final outcome we all die in the end … SO what does it matter if someone preaches at you? You get upset… why?
This keyboard is as much a bunch of atoms as you are, but it doesn’t get upset at anything.
but… I am human… you say… ah, and that is what the original post was about, being human!
And so in any scientific forum if you post a part-paper and someone else comes along and finishes off your working for you, you say thank you! If someone shows you that you made a mistake in logic, in assumptions or in any other area of your working, you say thank you!
But not in this case.

John Whitman
April 21, 2014 12:44 pm

Willis,
You and I are seemingly at an impasse. Janice, to me, is displaying merely ‘pro forma’ litany response to a stimulus (your ‘Billy’). It signifies a ritual to me, not persuasion.
In spite of some criticism of the dialog in comments that both Janice and you inspired, I found it a point for some important reflection. This wasn’t a science post, so going where it did wasn’t constrained.
John

davideisenstadt
April 21, 2014 1:07 pm

Neillusion says:
April 21, 2014 at 11:47 am
Neillusion says:
April 21, 2014 at 12:13 pm
Neillusion says:
April 21, 2014 at 12:19 pm
enough already.
the suffering was supposed to have stopped around 3:00 pm Friday…not for us though.

Neillusion
April 21, 2014 1:44 pm

willis,
lol
it was the only thing i could fit or find reason enough for u to persist with lies, blah blah
do you still want an apology from Janice?
I get persistent myself, kind of bitter and harsh, sorry bout that, when lies are used to justify a nonposition. I do think you have a deep seated problem with good people like Janice and also somehow mentaly hang on to stuff that just ain’t true and manufacture more. Perhaps u were a little vulnerable but no excuse and a decent person would apologise FULLY to Janice
david
lol

April 21, 2014 1:50 pm

Thank you for a very touching story Willis.
I also understand your harsh words towards Janice, since you could get the impression that she hijacked your personal story and filled it with content which you object to.
Personally I choose to believe in Christianity and find comfort in the expectation of an eternal afterlife, but I will not push my belief on others.
/Jan

James at 48
April 21, 2014 2:03 pm

RE: “I found out then that there is an odd kind of peace in being alone in a room with someone who has just died. ”
I second this.

Neillusion
April 21, 2014 2:08 pm

robert of calvery
He earlier declared he “demolished” Willis. When no one gave hm a pat on the head for his invisible achievement he had to come back and remind us what a mean keyboard stroker he is.
1. Willis, your position re Janice is just so wrong imo – I could demolish your argument in many different ways, comprehensively.
2. You still persist with the Moslem funeral ‘example’ bs. Well demolished in my last post.
which one robert 1 or 2

Hilary Ostrov (aka hro001)
April 21, 2014 2:41 pm

Hilary Ostrov (aka hro001) says:April 21, 2014 at 3:56 am
[Willis’ chosen “hook” for yet another round of recycled ranting snipped for brevity]

Hilary, good to hear from you.
I was not the one to introduce religion into this discussion. It is a very divisive subject as events have shown. I was careful to avoid it.

Yes, so very “careful” in your “avoidance” that you couldn’t just scroll-by one solitary comment. You had to snip this comment in its entirety in order to belittle and berate Janice (whose motivations, at least at one point – perhaps in a moment of fleeting clarity and wisdom – you claimed not to know**!) while indulging yourself with your ever-escalating fantasies – evidence of which, in accordance, with your maxim I did provide (and which, I notice, you also snipped in your oh-so-careful “response” to my observations and questions.)
** http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/04/18/my-friend-billy-2/#comment-1616809
But speaking of your snips and scroll-bys … the mileage of others (including, no doubt, yourself) might vary; but I for one found it quite telling that you chose to completely ignore my (emphasis now added):

To be honest, I’m not entirely sure which I find more disheartening and disappointing, Willis. Your actions towards Janice or the rather conspicuous absence of any acknowledgement on your part of the recollection of the losses that others have shared, For example, weathep’s loss of a child [April 19, 2014 at 2:45 am] whose pain one can feel four years later, and Snowsnake’s very recent loss of his wife of 48 years [April 19, 2014 at 6:10 am].
Or is it the case that in your view the stories of their respective losses were not as “crafted” and “powerful” as your own and therefore not deserving of your acknowledgement, because you have more important things to write about, like rationalizing your actions, over and over and over again.

Btw, Willis, contrary to the ill-considered (and recycled for the umpteenth time) assumptions in your “response” to my comment, I have no “imaginary friend”. Although I certainly will confess that during times of grieving and mourning my own losses of family and close long-time friends, to some extent I have envied those whose faith gives them the comfort of strong belief in an afterlife.
And – while your past performances in this thread would strongly suggest that it is not of much interest to you, Willis – just for the record … I’m Jewish, always have been and always will be.
So I can assure you that we most certainly do not proselytize. Nor, to the best of my knowledge, is it part of our tradition to run around browbeating those who might express their condolences in accordance with their beliefs.

Latitude
April 21, 2014 2:42 pm
Hilary Ostrov (aka hro001)
April 21, 2014 2:54 pm

Sorry, my second last para above should read “… not of much interest to you …”

April 21, 2014 3:09 pm

David Ball says:
April 20, 2014 at 2:14 pm
Just want to say thank you to all for completely ignoring my comment. It says more than you would like it to.
=====================================================================
Sorry.
I got here a bit late and then was distracted by the fireworks.
I’m glad your wife has recovered.
I hope that enough time has passed that the memories can evoke a smile rather than the loss.
My Mom died a decade before my Dad. With Dad there, the house I grew up in was still Home. Mom was missing but Dad was still there. When Dad died over a decade ago and we had to empty and sell the house … I don’t remember ever caring about “things” so much before. That bothered me. It took awhile but I realized that it wasn’t “the thing” itself but the memory associated with it. Not just of my parents but of my childhood. As long as Dad was there in that house, I was still a “kid” even though I was married with kids of my own and in my late 40’s.
I’d say more but enough fuses have been lit here. God bless.

Neillusion
April 21, 2014 3:09 pm

willis – did those people not comment to you, in response to you, moved by you – you had lots of energy for creative misrepresentative defense/attack re janice, thousands of words, stop twisting anothers words/meaning … but
so it goes on,
I hoped you would see the good in janice, and accept that what she did was good, and her right here.
ALL you had to say to her comment was ‘thanks but no thanks, janice’, instead you did what you did.
u didn’t answer my question
do you still want/hope for a n apology from janice?

RusQ
April 21, 2014 3:10 pm

and then – there was Janice.

Hilary Ostrov (aka hro001)
April 21, 2014 3:20 pm

I had written: “my second last para above should read ‘… not of much interest to you …'”
And clearly it wasn’t! After all, it’s your thread, your rules and your perceptions (however off-the-mark, aggressive and unpleasant they might appear to others) are clearly the only ones that count.
But do carry on with your recycled self-exculpatory rants and projections – Willis!
Amazing. Simply amazing.

RusQ
April 21, 2014 3:31 pm

“But do carry on with your recycled self-exculpatory rants and projections”
amen, hallelujah and rest in piece now…

RusQ
April 21, 2014 3:38 pm

Peace?
cannot quite imagine that yet…

John Whitman
April 21, 2014 3:47 pm

{all bold emphasis mine – JW}

Willis Eschenbach on April 21, 2014 at 2:16 pm

John Whitman says:
April 21, 2014 at 12:44 pm
Willis,
You and I are seemingly at an impasse. Janice, to me, is displaying merely ‘pro forma’ litany response to a stimulus (your ‘Billy’). It signifies a ritual to me, not persuasion.

This is the problem. Christians, even well meaning ones such as yourself, simply don’t understand the frustration and revulsion and irritation we feel to be on the receiving end of YET ANOTHER CHRISTIAN SALES PITCH!!!

– – – – – – – – – –
Willis,
I thought it was very well known at WUWT, due my vigorous interaction in all the controversial Monckton threads at WUWT where he interjected his Christianity significantly into his hard science posts, that I am labeled by theists as an athiest. I criticize the termininology ‘atheist’ because it is a theist concept and has irrational connotations. I am just a normal man, not a theist nor athiest (although atheist is close to accurate), who has no supernatural / superstitious component intellectually. Have been so since I decided to think for myself at ~13 years old.
My position on Janice’s ‘ritualistic litany-like’ first comment is not due to any sympathy with religion.
My +60 year life around religious people proclaiming their ritualistic wisdom is what gives me tolerance of Janice’s behavior. My experience is it is the only way they know to express their emotions.
John

Pamela Gray
April 21, 2014 3:52 pm

Oh for goodness sake, of course she was preaching and hoping for a conversion! Hell she even prays it will happen! And she knows she was doing those things! In fact she is probably smacking her forehead right now at the people here who are saying she wasn’t!
Now, to be factual, she then backpeddled and said that was not her intent to evangelize. I’m calling her on it. Sure it was her intent. Doing it gently with sugar on top or in a straight matter of fact way makes no difference. To evangelize is one of the key components of being a Christian in many denominations. And after that, to disciple (train up your evangelized baby flock).
So she needs to step into her big girl panties, own up, say she’s sorry, “my bad”, it was done without thought, and promise to never evangelize Willis again. Will she attempt to do it to someone else? You betcha. The lashes are evangelist points. Gotta do the “Lord’s bidding” and go and make baby Christians and disciples. And she will continue to pprrrraaaayyyyy for Willis’ salvation as if her life depended on it. Hell, she prays for all of us. Does it irritate me? Yes of course! But it won’t make a difference. She’ll keep on doing it.
Now, that said, I would love to spend an evening with her over a really nice bottle of red wine…or two. I bet I could get her to loosen up.

RusQ
April 21, 2014 3:59 pm

“Does it irritate me? Yes of course! But it won’t make a difference. She’ll keep on doing it.”
hmmm, I see no evidence of “keep doing it”, do you?

John R T
April 21, 2014 4:21 pm

“… well-known, wanted criminal …” An invisible, personal, private advisor? M[r/s] Death? How about the mortal nature?
And so, she reads on, probably certain you would not conflate the evil One with Facts-of-Life: your guest offerings have proved you know the difference between mere metaphors and actual Beings. She and many others cleared throats, maybe blinked or wiped away tears, even had to rise from the monitor, give the room a couple of turns, light a lung-buster on the porch. Your tale brought us into your world, again.
Maybe I am alone here: I never thought, ‘It’s a eulogy.” A saga of friends and family leaving, named and un-named, some pagans, heathens, dead beside-the -way, and those heralded and celebrated. Elegiac, mournful for sure. Praising? not Willis’ way.
She joined other thoughtful persons of Faith, as your account led us on. On this turning point, another good Friday, last night’s Lectionary fresh and impelling, fearlessly Janice heeds the Great Commission. Anthony suggested his readers might enjoy some contentment; Willis promised adult content. Another Christian strode forth, fully-armored.
You say you are complex. You deny both saintliness and being a sinner. Compassionate: a grizzly, snapping twigs! For me, hardly a member of ursus: rather, polistes. Yellow jackets and hornets, precisely: even an unawares, benign, approach brings the fury. Pheromones excite the hive. Horses and dogs may outrun the swarm; Man knows to hunker down, take a few stings; cows and sheep break a leg [feast time] in a mad dash.
Willis, I have enjoyed much of your writing.
This Easter weekend, I have seen Rational Man lashing out. A little knowledge, early acquired, has not served you well. I hope you will have time to examine your assertions and givens. Chesterton would be a substantial commencement; Chambers might be a bit much, at present.
I am not here to save anyone: I cannot save myself. He promised to be WITH us, not to shield us.
Peace, brother. Keep writing, please.
John Moore

John Whitman
April 21, 2014 4:25 pm

Hey, I should get partial credit for spelling ‘atheist’ correctly 2 of the 4 times I used it in my comment John Whitman on April 21, 2014 at 3:47 pm.
Shouldn’t I?
John

bushbunny
April 21, 2014 7:21 pm

At my mother’s funeral Willis, I had a RC priest read rites, a professional actress (who I was a friend of) read a eulogy (that is usually about the person who has died, their life’s history and triumphs etc) about them personally not biblical. But I read a biblical piece about ‘There is a time to die, etc” And nearly stumbled when in saying ‘God’ I almost said ‘Dog’. Then we had a good Irish wake afterwards, my mother would have been proud of. A eulogy is about the person, not about the bible. Well it is in my Christian practices. Mum was rather anti-religion too. My next door neighbor who became an Anglican priest, noticed my stumble, and congratulated me afterwards he was the only one who noticed. Anyway dog spelt backwards reads God.

NRG22
April 21, 2014 7:22 pm

Willis Eschenbach says:
April 19, 2014 at 10:54 pm
“Oh, please. Your claim that reader comments are “by invitation only” is as unpleasant as it is untrue. If that were true, surely you’d agree that I would have cast your comment and that of Janice into the outer darkness … but I have neither the desire nor the authority to do that.”
You said, “So when someone turns up uninvited, (snip)” and later tried to reframe it here, “What part do you not understand about “some people find an uninvited sales pitch for Jesus at the eulogy for an atheist to be intrusive and upsetting”?” You clearly saw Janice as an uninvited poster, hence my question because as far as I know, this is a public site.
“Your idea that somehow this site is censored is nonsense. Yes, it has rules, but they are broad and only broken by people who work at it. You and Janice are free to declaim (within bounds) most anything you want … happy now? Not only that, but I’m free to respond to it (again within bounds) as I wish.”
You’re the one veering out of bounds, but I suppose as a guest writer you get a bit more leeway than most.
“However, you are right about one thing. When someone shows up at my eulogy for an atheist and decides it’s the perfect occasion to start preaching a sermon about Jesus, you’re 100% correct that I’ll get abrasive. I don’t suffer fools gladly, particularly when they are wildly inappropriate. Hey, I’m a complex man, it’s not all love and rainbows and unicorns in my world, and I’ve never in my life been politically correct. So you might as well get used to it.”
If by complex you mean rude, sure. You see Christians as fools, you felt you had to give Janice a public flogging. I read her post and ignored it, and her video link, and went on the others I’d find more interesting. It’s not a question of being PC, it’s a question of being classy. You aren’t that either.
“Here’s a funny thing, NGR22. I never pay a damn bit of attention when someone says I should apologize to a third party who is perfectly capable of defending their own actions and choices. I find it unbearably paternalistic. Who died and put you in charge of judging whether apologies between two people you’ve never met are adequate, or “real” to use your terms?”
Who died and put you in charge of pontificating about the evils of Christianity? That’s what this thread has become. I commented about the apology (or lack of) because you repeatedly said you had apologized when you didn’t really. Any apology that had a “but” attached to it isn’t a real apology. You basically say I’m sorry I was so harsh, but she deserved it. Not an apology. I guess it bothers me that you keep defending your non-apology because it shows me you’re not completely honest, therefore I cannot assume your other posts are honest.
“There is only one person on this planet qualified to say if my apology to Janice is satisfactory, and guess what, my leetle internet popup?
That person is not you.
If Janice tells me she is not satisfied, I will assuredly take action. You? You’re an anonymous nobody who is unwilling to sign his own name to his words, who is acting on his mistaken and paternalistic assumption that Janice needs to be protected from a baaaad man like me, and further to that, you assume she needs some man to be the judge of the quality of apologies offered directly to her. That is both ludicrous and insulting to Janice. She’s a grown woman who is quite capable of speaking for herself. If she thinks my apology is inadequate, I expect she’ll let me know, she’s hardly been reticent about her beliefs and opinions to date.”
You insult anyone that dares question you or your actions. You twist words and are always on the defensive. You really are no different than the CAGW zealots. Even if Janice said she isn’t satisfied I’m sure you would browbeat her some more. As for your asinine comment about me not signing my real name, does it really matter? It doesn’t, but ill humor you. I’m Nancy Gregoretti. I live on Long Island in NY. I’m a 55 year old, wife, mother of 3, and with my husband am a multiple home owner, and multiple business owner. Laundromats and apartment buildings, so you don’t think I’m being paid by warmists to come here and attack you. We did take money from a fracking company to lease some acreage we own, but that hasn’t happened and I don’t care if it never does. My oldest (a daughter) does graphic design for CNBC, my son works with my husband, and our youngest daughter is at UVA. I have told each of them they can choose a religion and worship, or not, as they wish. I have 2 rescue dogs, and babysit my son’s dog (also a rescue) while he’s at work because he keeps breaking out of his crates. I draw the line at giving you my social security number. So…does that make my comments any different than before? Didn’t think so.
“My condolences to Billy’s daughter, I feel for her. You, not so much
How very Christian of you, you are a credit to your beliefs …
w.”
How very ignorant of you. What makes you assume I’m a Christian? My parents christened me in the Roman Catholic Church. They made me receive communion and confirmation. Then they let me do what I wanted, which was nothing. The only times I’m in church is for a wedding or a funeral. I never read the bible, I don’t go to mass, I don’t follow Christian doctrine. I don’t turn the other cheek. But I also don’t care when anyone else speaks of their religion. My best friend since high school became a born again Christian. In the beginning she was very open about her faith, wanting to share it. If she was trying to convert me she failed, and in time stopped talking about it. She got the hint. I never once felt I needed to put her in her place. I’m sure if I had we would no longer be friends. You may eventually have no readers. I know I won’t read your articles.
“PS—I see that you are taking lessons from Stephan Lewandowsky in long-distance psychological diagnosis, saying that I should seek therapy for the problems you see me as having … I have to assume you don’t realize how intrusive, unpleasant, and foolish that makes you look.”
It’s good advice. I’ve been to therapy, and anger management. Maybe that’s why I can see things in your posts that you can’t seem to see. It’s also good for grief.

bushbunny
April 21, 2014 7:44 pm

There was a series run on TV ‘The Bible’ over Easter. It started with Noah and Abraham, then went on to Moses etc. and the Exodus and finally to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I was a bit fazed when it came to Joshua and Jericho, and God’s instructions to enter and killed all the animals and people then burnt it down. That was NOT very nice was it, all but for the prostitute who had hid spies from Joshua to allow them to destroy the walls. The bible especially the old testament is full of violence by the Israelites. Especially the passover? All in the name of God.
However a professor of mine actually was at Jericho doing a dig when the six day war started.
But evidence is that a river undermined the walls at one time, and there was a fire. These people were the first to actually as it is known to start storing grain and domesticating animals.
When my parents entered Israel in 1962, Jericho was a refugee camp for Palestinians, they were not allowed to take photos, but my father did of course.As well as the gates separating the Jordanian held part of Jerusleum and the Jewish side. The Western bank, Well we know what happened there. Politics, politics, politics even now.

Michael Gersh
April 21, 2014 10:06 pm

Gotta nitpick you here bushbunny. The folks at Göbekli Tepe were storing grain and domesticating animals a few thousand years before Abraham’s time, hundreds of miles northeast of where Jericho was ultimately built.

Bob Jakicic
April 21, 2014 10:07 pm

Willis said:
“She came to tell me that the comfort I feel in taking Death’s advice is false comfort, that I’m too foolish to tell the true from the false about WHAT COMFORTS ME … yeah, that makes me feel much better, John.”
Fascinating!
Willis, I rarely post but this discussion has moved me to talk. I am a Christian and have followed these comments trying to learn. I think you are a very smart guy and I believe I understand your point, “I DON’T WANT TO BE SAVED.” What I don’t understand is how death’s advice comforts you. I got that impression while reading your post but I still don’t understand. I am probably just not comprehending but could you further explain to me just what this comfort is?

johanna
April 21, 2014 10:53 pm

Nancy, thanks for your post. I wish I could do the same, but until Big Oil starts paying my bills and funding my retirement, I can’t.
It was both funny and sad to watch Willis accusing Hilary Ostrov of being a prosetylising Christian just because she disagreed with him. If he had bothered to do a few keystrokes of research, he would easily have found out that she is Jewish. But facts don’t get in the way much when he is on one of his rampages, especially against women.
Then we had:
“I expressed emotions, lots of them. Raw emotions. Very personal emotions. Strong emotions.”
Hemingway, eat your heart out!
Then:
Pamela Gray said:
Now, to be factual, she then backpeddled and said that was not her intent to evangelize. I’m calling her on it. Sure it was her intent.
To be factual? Please cite where Janice has said anything of the sort, or indeed anything at all, about this.
As for the privileged rights of Willis on his threads, when his bombastic and lengthy comments are in the same colour as everyone else’s, and are snipped for personal abuse and irrelevance like everyone else’s, I might believe that he is not a protected species (Michael Mann with a ponytail) around here.

bushbunny
April 21, 2014 11:06 pm

Michael you are not nitpicking in my estimation, however, the date for organized agriculture (cereal crops and domesticating animals dates back to around 9000 BP, it developed in leaps and bounds, and was primarily in the fertile crescent, the Levant and of course Egypt. Once described as the ‘granary of the world’
Once people started to store grain, this made them vulnerable to attack, hence the walls. And they began to trade too with surplus. I don’t doubt what you have said, but one ancient history note was that monotheisism (sorry about the spelling) that Abraham influenced Akhenaten the heretic Egyptian pharaoh ‘around’ 1350 BC, But Egypt was irrigating then so was Mesopotamia.
And this was possible only after the last glacial period ended. Jericho has been backdated to about 8-9,000 years ago, well before the Exodus, but again these ‘tells’ were built over many years and centuries from previous settlements. And by different sects of people, who were probably pagans anyway.

John R T
Reply to  bushbunny
April 22, 2014 5:12 am

slightly O/T
In re Jericho
This city’s history is interesting. Biblical Archaeology Review offers useful data. Also, in
Newton’s Madness: Further Tales Of Clinical Neurology by Harold Klawans
we read of a recurring problem with its famous well.

bushbunny
April 21, 2014 11:17 pm

A bit of levity, we have National census’ every 5 years. A few ‘c’ back, we dog owners and breeders got sick of the governments unreal dog laws, that seemed to depreciate pure bred dog breeders, who are licensed to breed, while allowing back yard breeders to exploit the laws. So we all decided to put down in the ‘what religion do you follow’ in the ‘other’ section. Caninologist, dog lover. No disrespect to other mainstream religions though of coursse.

April 21, 2014 11:40 pm

Thanks, Willis. Sorry for your loss. Let’s not fight. I don’t want what the door-to-door missionaries offer, but hey value what they offer. Maybe we could look at climate scientists the same way. Perhaps they imagine that their policy prescriptions qualify as generosity. Is there a gentle way to say “thanks but no thanks”?

bushbunny
April 22, 2014 12:51 am

Unfortunately, I was cut off from the Internet and my last reply hasn’t been published. But maybe that was a God send, so I will say good night everyone, and God Bless – even Willis.

April 22, 2014 3:33 am

I wasn’t going to post again…..but I just couldn’t hel[p myself, my bad…
@willis
“Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Warning: Viewer discretion advised. This post discusses adult themes and content. Oh, not the usual adult themes we get on TV, like D: Suggestive Dialogue or V: Violence. Instead, it is a discussion of the following well-known wanted criminal:
(see Picture of Death here)
Figure 1. The one with many names … the Pale Rider. The Grim Reaper. The Angel Of Death. Thanatos. Azrael. Cronus.
I’ve been thinking a lot about death lately… ”
“It is a discussion of the following well-known wanted criminal (DEATH)” – did you write that willis?

Ursa Felidae
April 22, 2014 6:27 am

milodonharlani says:
April 21, 2014 at 11:53 am
I was going to respond to your last posting, but I thought I would seek clarification first regarding the statement : ”
Cosmic dust (ie, matter) exists in our universe because its physical laws allow, indeed require it, to exist here.”
What do you mean by “matter exists in our universe because physical laws require it to exist here”?

April 22, 2014 6:27 am

willis re johanna,
you claim that I am anti-women, you are also claiming that my wife must be a fool or an idiot to hang out with such a man. (she claimed u anti-women??!!)
So I’ll let her know how you feel, it will amuse her greatly. She’s a powerful woman who has no hesitation in speaking her mind…’
So, was the missus amused? Now I am guessing here, willis, that the missus has stepped in, sent you to your room with no cookies and no laptop, for being a bully in the playground of words, re Janice, notwithstanding your half hearted apology.

Pamela Gray
April 22, 2014 7:23 am

Look people, I know how this stuff works. The offending evangilizer will want to apologize for having offended Willis. She will say she didn’t mean to offend him so. And I have no doubt she is trying to figure out a way to say it, in so many words, to Willis. So I am calling her on it. I think she should apologize for evangilizing, not just that her evangilizing caused offense. Why? So that the [eulogy] is given its respect and blessing back for the dear people now gone it was meant to bless. She took that blessing away and focused attention on Willis, thus removing the blessing and even mocking it for not being good enough, IE lacking in some way. Bad form. Bad form.
Do you see the difference? When we tromp mud into someone’s house thus creating a dirty floor, we should [apologize] for the effect AND the cause. If you apologize just for offending (IE “I [didn’t] mean to get your floor dirty or make you feel bad”), you have yet to apologize for the act itself. And trust me, it will be the hardest thing in the world for an evangelist to apologize for what they consider to be their job on Earth. To evangelize, to spread the word, to make effort to gather the flock. It is a big ol’ slice of humble pie for an evangelist. Let’s see if she has what it takes.
Like I said, give me one evening and two bottles of really good red wine and some top tier dark chocolate and I will shake it out of her. So my dear, don’t shake the dust out of your [sandals] (and you know what I mean). Walk back to the mess you made, clean it up and restore the blessing, and promise never to gate crash a eulogy again.

Pamela Gray
April 22, 2014 7:26 am

Dang typos and lack of good spelling. But at my age, I don’t put much stock in being perfect anymore.

April 22, 2014 7:54 am

pamela
methinks you started on the wine a while ago.
The ‘discussion on death’, as willis, himself, introducted it, on Easter w/e, was declared a eulogy long after posting, in a dubious manner….
Janice owes no apology. I enjoyed her contribution to the discussion, her invite, if interested, to how she found hope, etc. I really can’t see how any decent, civilized mind could find fault with it.
I think the comment about advice from death good up to a point, but life able to give you more, owtte, was accomodating, qualified, and insightful and consistent with my own view.
I was shocked at Willis’s reaction, glad to a point about his partial apology, but astonished at his continued comments, as I’m sure u’ve read.

John Whitman
April 22, 2014 8:32 am

Janice Moore,
I do not know why you have ceased to participate in the last few days in this thread after your initial comments to Willis then to Evan. (I seem to think you are still around, I might have seen a comment you made just yesterday evening at another WUWT thread, but I may be mistaken)
My position on your first comment has been a cautiously benevolent interpretation of your actions and words. I have argued that you simply are performing a kind of ‘pro forma’ religious ritualized behavior typically used by religious people to express their emotions in moments of grieving. I have been arguing that you may be doing so because you might have been educated by your church peers and leadership to think that it is appropriate and I have been suggesting you did not premeditatedly try to persuade Willis and other readers to convert to your religion during the eulogy for ‘Billy’.
Janice, with your silence my benevolent position weakens in the face of a non-benevolent position that you premeditatedly acted to be a crass salesman during a eulogy.
Janice, please see comment Pamela Gray April 22, 2014 at 7:23 am.
John

climatereason
Editor
April 22, 2014 8:43 am

John
Assuming you had posted -on a public blog-your original comment in a genuine spirit of good will, then seen it over-interpreted and blown up out of all proportion in succeeding comments by various people-by no means all of them polite-would YOU still be hanging around?
tonyb

Snowsnake
April 22, 2014 8:58 am

So many urging others to be diplomatic and to apologize and/or accept apologies. It reminds me of the saying (Tamerand?), “The art of diplomacy is to say, ‘Nice doggie, nice doggie,’ while searching for a rock.”
By the way, Willis was right when he suggested I didn’t want a pat on the head. I was telling about my own encounter with death up close and personal and why it hurt so much and what it did to me. I
think sooner or later everybody has some kind of experience with death and then we draw on the things we have absorbed from the experience of others. That was a large part of what was offered. I remember things told to me or stories I heard from as long ago as fifty years and the people who said these things have been dead for decades–yet, what they said remains a comfort to me. So, take what you can use and forget the rest.

John Whitman
April 22, 2014 9:30 am

climatereason says:
April 22, 2014 at 8:43 am
John
Assuming you had posted -on a public blog-your original comment in a genuine spirit of good will, then seen it over-interpreted and blown up out of all proportion in succeeding comments by various people-by no means all of them polite-would YOU still be hanging around?
tonyb

– – – – – – – – – –
climatereason (tonyb),
You are begging the question.
The question you are begging is ‘Is she benevolent in her words and actions on this thread?”
If her intellectual tactic is retreat in the face of criticism then such a tactic is not intellectually relevant to the dialog that she initiated so strongly.
John

April 22, 2014 9:32 am

whitman, careful now, there’s a contagious pathalogical condition hanging around this thread and you seem to be about to catch it…
Have you read any of what willis has written…
He presented his guest essay as a discussion on death, not a eulogy, right at the beginning.

John Whitman
April 22, 2014 9:42 am

neillusion says:
April 22, 2014 at 9:32 am
whitman, careful now, there’s a contagious pathalogical condition hanging around this thread and you seem to be about to catch it…
Have you read any of what willis has written…
He presented his guest essay as a discussion on death, not a eulogy, right at the beginning.

– – – – – – – – –
neillusion,
Send your pseudo-intellectual ‘pathology’ namecalling strategy to Lewandowsky and Cook, they emulate that kind of thing . . . your argument might help them to un-retract ‘Recursive’ and prevent a future retraction of ‘Moon Hoax’.
John

milodonharlani
April 22, 2014 9:57 am

Ursa Felidae says:
April 22, 2014 at 6:27 am
The physical laws under which our universe operates not only allow matter to exist, but require that it do so. Here the gravitational, weak, strong & electromagnetic forces operate. Thus we live in a universe in which subatomic particles, hydrogen & hence more complex atoms & molecules may & must form. Thus stars & galaxies will develop, along with planets, moons, asteroids, comets & other objects, upon which life may arise & evolve. IMO life develops inevitably under certain conditions in order to solve energetic problems.

milodonharlani
April 22, 2014 9:58 am

Snowsnake says:
April 22, 2014 at 8:58 am
So many urging others to be diplomatic and to apologize and/or accept apologies. It reminds me of the saying (Tamerand?), “The art of diplomacy is to say, ‘Nice doggie, nice doggie,’ while searching for a rock.”
——————-
Assume you mean Talleyrand.

milodonharlani
April 22, 2014 10:02 am

John Whitman says:
April 22, 2014 at 8:32 am
IMO Janice has not commented subsequently because Willis asked her not to do so.
Since the Moderator didn’t approve of my comment on the issue, I won’t repeat my opinion.

April 22, 2014 10:18 am

Whitman – oops, too late
Willis – could I be forgiven for thinking it was a discussion about death, seeing as u stated that at the beginning (and only recently say ‘I wouldn’t take it seriously’) and u slipped in a eulogy? That’s cool, but it does allow for discussion on a public forum, of wide audience, introduced by anthony as a guest piece … ‘perspective on life’.
Seems to me the eulogy bit was tacked on at the end, after your own moving ‘discussion’, or sharing, of other experiences of death. No less for that.
…the stuff in bold, yep my bad, I put it in brackets, thought that’d be ’nuff, it’s own context made it rather obvious..??!!. but I’m sure you’;ve cleared that up for those that needed it.

“Which brings me back to where I started this roundabout tale, back to William Alfred Schneider, my dear friend Billy, fellow musician, and father-in-law. I finally got to know him after they moved out here….”

John R T
Reply to  neillusion
April 22, 2014 11:05 am

Willis, “… I showed up and told you in no uncertain terms that Jesus was a liar, that he could not bring you peace, that your most fundamental and cherished beliefs that you had just discussed were all wrong, that Christ could never bring real lasting hope to anyone, and then I topped it off by trying to convert you to some other religion … would you consider …” Is this your unanswered question?
For a brief period, I could have been the posited Willis.
Today, I would tell you how happy I am that you joined in our celebration of …..’s life. How glad I am not to be in Somewhere-stan, my head severed from this scrawny neck. How children in Nigeria will be mourned because of intolerance; even they had a life to celebrate.
“Please stay and share some things brought by members of the altar guild. Many called Him a liar, a fool, even spat on him. Today we spoke of the deceased and her beliefs, of our sorrow, of promises we cherish: you have heard a bit. i hope you listened.”
Willis, you are hardly the first to confront the convictions of faithful persons. Do not project your motives / emotions / misperceptions: many of us have been where you persist. You are no threat; we read of worse, daily.
John
PS: {Somewhere up-thread, at least twice, you claimed that salespersons had to show the prospective buyer his wrong-ness; where did you learn this? I never made a sale by talking down the person with the money. Again, where did this happen to you? Know of any successful representatives who claim this is the road to success?}

milodonharlani
April 22, 2014 10:45 am

neillusion says:
April 22, 2014 at 10:18 am
What part of “My Friend Billy” do you not understand?
“Eulogy”, from Attic Greek εὐλογία, eulogia, “praise” (literally “good word”), is a statement in praise of someone (or something), particularly of the recently dead.

April 22, 2014 10:55 am

milod….
what part of discussion about death do you not understand?
A eulogy (from εὐλογία, eulogia, Classical Greek for “praise”) is a speech or writing in praise of a person(s) or thing(s), especially one recently dead or retired or a term of endearment.[1][2][3]
Eulogies may be given as part of funeral services. They take place in a funeral home during or after a wake. However, some denominations either discourage or do not permit eulogies at services to maintain respect for traditions. Eulogies can also praise people who are still alive. This normally takes place on special occasions like birthdays etc. Eulogies should not be confused with elegies, which are poems written in tribute to the dead; nor with obituaries, which are published biographies recounting the lives of those who have recently died; nor with obsequies, which refer generally to the rituals surrounding funerals. Catholic priests are prohibited by the rubrics of the Mass from presenting a eulogy for the deceased in place of a homily during a funeral Mass.[4]
Eulogies are usually delivered by a family member or a close family friend in the case of a dead person.[5] For a living eulogy given in such cases as a retirement, a senior colleague could perhaps deliver it. On occasions, eulogies are given to those who are severely ill or elderly in order to express words of love and gratitude before they pass away.

April 22, 2014 10:56 am

that eulogy definition was from wiki, just to give credit

milodonharlani
April 22, 2014 11:04 am

neillusion says:
April 22, 2014 at 10:55 am
The post entitled “My Friend Billy” was about Willis’ friend Billy, who died recently, not a meditation on death in general. IMO Willis did not overreact to Janice’s insensitive intrusion & rude, jarring interjection of her religion into comments upon his meditation on the life & death of his friend, whatever her motive for doing so might have been, good, bad or indifferent.

April 22, 2014 11:12 am

Milod….
….all about billy….owtte
really, did you read the same account I did, the one above that describes many situations/deaths, throught the years, listening to death, best advice from death, etc, etc, etc, etc.?

milodonharlani
April 22, 2014 11:19 am

neillusion says:
April 22, 2014 at 11:12 am
Yes, I read those parts, leading up to the eulogy for Billy, celebrating his life & commenting on his death. Billy was lucky not to die in the street or a makeshift hospital, but as he in fact did. The point of the post was IMO that Willis also was lucky to have known his friend Billy. The last thing Willis wanted or needed was unasked for Christian condolences, as would have been obvious to anyone not programmed to take every opportunity to push his or her beliefs upon others, no matter how unwilling to hear the objectionable patter again, for the 20,000th time.

kevin smith
April 22, 2014 11:26 am

Anthony et al, I am an avid reader of WUWT and have been for years. It appeals to my contrarian streak, I suppose, but also has always been a haven of balanced rationality and even tolerance in an otherwise frustratingly one-sided media environment. I have never posted, however…it being quite obvious that folks here are on average much more intelligent than I, and far more knowledgeable. Thank you for your work and this site over the years, and for taking the risk to occasionally make room for these types of very human posts, with such potential for connection and controversy.
Willis, like so many others I feel compelled to thank you for sharing this part of your journey with us. I appreciate the rawness and vulnerability with which you wrote it…it was stark and beautiful, inspired and haunting, and tinged throughout with an alluring impression of wildness. Like great writing should, it engaged me on many levels, personally connecting to my own limited experiences overseas as well as my being a hack musician who was privileged to sit for a time with a master. And in making that comparison I’m by no means assuming you’re a hack like myself. From what you’ve let us see of yourself in your writings, you seem a man I would love to know and could learn a lot from.
Also like others, I must take issue with your treatment of Janice. I’ve re-read her post a lot of times and I just can’t squeeze the juice you’re tasting from it. At face value (which, as you’ve rightly pointed out, is all any of us have to work with in this somewhat artificial space…but we actually do ‘know’ her somewhat through her many contributions here) it seems a compassionate, gentle attempt at both honoring what you shared and connecting with you from her own spiritual point of view. What Janice tried to offer, and not in any kind of high-handed way, was merely an avenue for you to look further at her reason for hope should you so choose. How could she not? For her, to do so is the height of compassion. She never denigrated your beliefs. Unless I missed it, you didn’t claim any hope from Death, only wisdom in how to live, on which point she agreed with you. Perhaps her timing or even her word choice could have been better. Certainly you can (and should) be forgiven your initial response, even as over the top as it was, in light of your obviously very real and deep grief. I think, though, that wisdom would have eventually seen her post for what it was, and if not, that humility would have allowed you to let it go and move on. The growing vehemence with which you have continued to defend yourself and claim victim status from Janice’s imagined intentions threatens to overshadow (but not lessen) the story you shared.
Whether or not you intended it to be read as a eulogy, multiple people didn’t take it as that (or as ONLY that), which cannot be simply the readers’ fault. For my part, it seemed to be at least as much an outworking of personal grief over the loss of a dear friend as a tribute to him. That you chose to do this very publicly was both generous and dangerous, as you were no doubt well aware. In every thread on WUWT, the comments are full of people of sometimes radically different perspectives…how much more must you have anticipated this after such an emotional and universally heart-stirring piece?
As to your analogy of the Christian funeral, it seems a straw man, since from my reading Janice’s post was nothing like the sort of attack that you take it to be. Your perceiving it as such simply does not make it so.
Pamela, I understand and laud your wanting to have Willis’ back on this, but from an outsider’s perspective repeatedly claiming to know Janice’s mind rings hollow and insincere. (Although in my opinion, you ALL should get together over some wine and chocolate.) I also disagree that what she did took anything away from Willis’ original story; that writing stands on its own, and only he has the power to add or detract from it.
Peace
(not THE) kevin smith

John Whitman
April 22, 2014 11:34 am

Willis,
I think it would benefit the thread and all parties concerned, including yourself, if you personally in private and publically here on this thread invite Janice Moore to come back to this thread to help in a benevolent discussion about this situation. I ask you to do this because it seems reasonable that milodonharlani’s below opinion offers one of the main reasons (maybe the only reason) Janice Moore is not participating in the discussion involving her that has gone on for many hundreds of comments.
Since Christianity has been commonly used in many contexts since her departure, she should be invited to continue discussion of her position that precipitated all these hundreds of comments.

milodonharlani says:
April 22, 2014 at 10:02 am
Whitman on April 22, 2014 at 8:32 am
IMO Janice has not commented subsequently because Willis asked her not to do so.
Since the [M0der@tor] didn’t approve of my comment on the issue, I won’t repeat my opinion.

John

April 22, 2014 11:44 am

milod…
The last thing Willis wanted or needed was unasked for Christian condolences, as would have been obvious to anyone not programmed to take every opportunity to push his or her beliefs upon others, no matter how unwilling to hear the objectionable patter again, for the 20,000th time.
is that what happened? NO!
That you can’t see Janice’s kind, careful, challenge on the notions of death willils proclaims for himself, is bewildering to me and her sweet invitation, if interested, to read how she found hope, etc….was interesting in its own right, for me anyhow, I chose to read her comment further – even listened to the song.
all he had to say/write was ‘thanks but no thanks Janice’, instead he had a hissy fit and wailed that someone had trampled and ruined his powerful creative writing piece.
My concern is that Willis subsequently relentlessly criticised Janice for all sort of things, exaggerating, creatively misrepresentign what she said/did – astonishing for a grown man to engage in that shite.
And he persists with it !
If you read it from the top you’ll get to see and ugly reaction from Willis, persistent evennow even after a half hearted apology.

milodonharlani
April 22, 2014 11:58 am

neillusion says:
April 22, 2014 at 11:44 am
“My Friend Billy” was about Willis’ friend Billy, but not “all about” Billy as you so falsely characterized my comments. Since Billy recently died, of course the word “death” appeared in Willis’ post. That does not mean it was all about death or even about it.
I didn’t find Janice’s comment sweet at all, unless by sweet you mean cloying. She repeatedly interjects the beliefs of her cult into inappropriate places in this blog, despite knowing the effect of this behavior on those who come here to discuss science. She insults those whom this habit annoys by suggesting that we should contact members of her cult in our area to learn the truth, when in fact we are far more familiar with the Bible & the preposterous, false doctrines of her cult than is she. It’s not that we need to know more about her anti-scientific lies, but that we’ve heard it all thousands of times before & don’t want to be exposed to more of her spew here.
IMO her comment was meant to make her feel special, not to help Willis.

April 22, 2014 11:59 am

Kevin smith, well said
as re Janice coming here to discuss, I think she did the noble thing and left Willis wailing in the wind – that too he later criticises her for, even after telling her she was unwelcome to post here and wanted/hoped for an apology..
willis at Janice
“…
Your attempt to take advantage of my grief is absolutely not welcome, and is totally inappropriate on this thread. Please take it elsewhere. That kind of aggressive preaching is not wanted here.
Me, I’d prefer it if you didn’t post again on this thread. However, people’s preferences obviously matter little to you, otherwise you wouldn’t try this kind of unpleasant witnessing. This can’t be the first time you’ve had your face slapped for exactly this behavior. And yet here you are again …
I hope that’s clear enough. If not, I’m happy to tell you how I really feel.
w.”

April 22, 2014 12:07 pm

milod,
…all about billy…owtte – my bad but no malice aforethought, my point still made.

milodonharlani
April 22, 2014 12:12 pm

neillusion says:
April 22, 2014 at 12:07 pm
If your point is that the import of Willis’ post was about death & bereavement & not about his friendship with Billy, then your point remains unmade.
But respect your retracting the “all”.

Hilary Ostrov (aka hro001)
April 22, 2014 12:13 pm

John Whitman says: April 22, 2014 at 8:32 am

Janice Moore,
I do not know why you have ceased to participate in the last few days in this thread after your initial comments to Willis then to Evan.

John,
For the record, Janice made two comments: the first addressed to Willis Eschenbach, and a second addressed to Evan Jones. Both of which preceded Willis’ all too familiar all guns blazing, barrage of insults which, in this particular instance, were directed at Janice:
April 18, 2014 at 11:27 pm
Some relevant excerpts from his (absolutely, positively could not possibly be mistaken) reading (of that which he’d snipped in its entirety but could just as easily have chosen to ignore since he judged it to be so “disgusting”):

“bunch of pre-boiled religious pap blah blah blah”
“Janice, you using my father-in-law’s death as an excuse for proselytizing for your religion is disgusting.”
“Please take it elsewhere.”
“Me, I’d prefer it if you didn’t post again on this thread.”

Consider the above, John. Consider also Willis’ past performances (along with those in this particular thread) – which include his all too frequent pattern of non-responsive, disrespectful, mindless repetition and browbeating.
It’s quite clear (at least to me!) that once Willis has made up his mind, about what anyone might have said on his thread (regardless of whether or not his interpretation bears any resemblance to the person’s actual words in context) any response is far more likely than not to be used by him as a launching pad for an escalation of (and/or an excuse for) more of the same.
So, I ask you, John, why would any self-respecting person not “cease to participate”?
OTOH, I suppose there is the possibility that Willis didn’t actually mean what he said, or said what he meant, when he wrote:

“I’d prefer it if you didn’t post again on this thread”.

Funnily enough, I see that earlier today Willis had declared:

“it’s both bad strategy and bad tactics to post something and then walk away without a word when someone questions it or objects to it.”

Oh, well, too bad we can’t all be readers of such a brilliant and ever-changing mind, eh?!

milodonharlani
April 22, 2014 12:21 pm

Hilary Ostrov (aka hro001) says:
April 22, 2014 at 12:13 pm
In light of your comment, please allow me to modify my previous statement that IMO Willis didn’t overreact to Janice’s comments. Asking her not to comment further may have been an overreaction, but what I had in mind was his characterization of her comments, which I felt were justified.

kenw
April 22, 2014 12:24 pm

Willis has lost all respect from me. Not that it matters to him n the least, but it matters to me that it comes to that.

John Whitman
April 22, 2014 12:26 pm

Hilary Ostrov (aka hro001) says:
April 22, 2014 at 12:13 pm

– – – – – – – – –
Hilary Ostrov (aka hro001),
I posted the below comment, which was just before you posting yours.

Willis,
I think it would benefit the thread and all parties concerned, including youself, if you personally in private and publically here on this thread invite Janice Moore to come back to this thread to help in a benevolent discussion about this situation. I ask you to do this because it seems reasonable that milodonharlani’s below opinion offers one of the main reasons (maybe the only reason) Janice Moore is not participating in the discussion involving her that has gone on for many hundreds of comments.
Since Christianity has been commonly used in many contexts since her departure, she should be invited to continue discussion of her position that precipitated all these hundreds of comments.

milodonharlani says:
April 22, 2014 at 10:02 am
Whitman on April 22, 2014 at 8:32 am
IMO Janice has not commented subsequently because Willis asked her not to do so.
Since the [M0der@tor] didn’t approve of my comment on the issue, I won’t repeat my opinion.

John

John

April 22, 2014 12:40 pm

Milod…Since Billy recently died, of course the word “death” appeared in Willis’ post. That does not mean it was all about death or even about it.
What? Eh hem, sorry, what do you mean? Don;t know how to say this but with the best possible intentions… IMO you should inform yourself some more about the thread/piece/comments before you comment more.
vzv right at the top ‘Instead, this is a discussion on that criminal death…’ yes, the second half contained much about billy, the first half much more about many others, with a constant allusion to his relationship with death and what it spoke /advised him. And he did that all veryy well, credit where credit due.
but his subsequent blast at Janice, was a shock to me, really. Ever since I’ve highlighted the twists, the lies, the false example, and got to see a very different side/agenda/persona/ego.
Even now I’m learning.
your comment about Janic’s presence on the WUWT with he religious characteristics or some such and upsetting memebers, whatever – I didn’t know, and it matters little. I subscribe to Kevinsmmiths view of taking it at face value, which I had to because I didn’t know either of them before. I enjoyed both Willis’s tale (his word) and Janices contribution. I’m left happier with Janice’s contribution echoing in my ear than Willis’s piece and his subsequent behavioiur.

milodonharlani
April 22, 2014 12:45 pm

neillusion says:
April 22, 2014 at 12:40 pm
The “twists, lies & false examples” have been yours, IMO.

April 22, 2014 12:54 pm

milod…The “twists, lies & false examples” have been yours, IMO.
really? sorry u feel that way.

April 22, 2014 12:58 pm

milod –
care to call me out on a twist or a lie or a false example ? It was Willis leading the way with his response to Janice. Go on knock yourself out…

milodonharlani
April 22, 2014 1:09 pm

neillusion says:
April 22, 2014 at 12:58 pm
How about your twisted, false claim that I said Willis’ piece was “all about” his friendship with Billy, rather than “about”?
How soon you forget.

Mark Bofill
April 22, 2014 1:23 pm

Gods, this thread has been awful. It depresses the heck out of me to see this sort of infighting here, and over what?
Do we have to morally approve or disapprove of every statement Willis or Janice makes? Don’t hold me to that standard! I flame people from time to time and sometimes regret it. I say stupid things all the time. So what? Do I have to take a side and say Janice was wrong, or Willis was wrong, to degree extent and particulars and then argue it? Does this accomplish something? Anything?
This isn’t my house, but I love this place. Not my thread, not my story, not my issue, so on. I’m nobody here and I got no right to speak, but I love this blog. Because of that and nothing else, I’ll go ahead and presume to ask this; unless someone really believes there’s some light at the end of this crappy tunnel, I ask all involved to say whatever you’ve got left you need to say and let it go.
You’re more than welcome to explain in depth to me what a presumptuous moron I am, all of you, and hand me my head on the way out. I don’t mind at all. This is all I had to say.

Mark Bofill
April 22, 2014 1:24 pm

You’re more than welcome to explain in depth to me what a presumptuous moron I am, all of you, and me my head on the way out. I don’t mind at all. This is all I had to say.

and hand me my head, I meant to say. I’ll need to get it sewn back on, and I won’t be able to find it otherwise.
[Fixed. -w.]

April 22, 2014 1:29 pm

milod
The post entitled “My Friend Billy” was about Willis’ friend Billy, who died recently, not a meditation on death in general. IMO Willis did not overreact to Janice’s insensitive intrusion & rude, jarring interjection of her religion into comments upon his meditation on the life & death of his friend, whatever her motive for doing so might have been, good, bad or indifferent.
milod
Since Billy recently died, of course the word “death” appeared in Willis’ post. That does not mean it was all about death or even about it.
Neillusion
….all about billy….owtte
really, did you read the same account I did, the one above that describes many situations/deaths, throught the years, listening to death, best advice from death, etc, etc, etc, etc.?
Neillusion
…all about billy…owtte – my bad but no malice aforethought, my point still made.
So Milod…, to clarify …all about billy…or words to that effect – owtte – was a compact ref to the post I was addressing with the comment to follow. Not a hidden or otherwise attempt to twist or lie to you or others about what you’d said. Isn’t that clear? didn’t the clear immediate public apology do it for you?
You’ll have to do better than that – have another go…

April 22, 2014 1:43 pm

milod
on second thoughts, no don’t, Mark B is right.

davideisenstadt
April 22, 2014 1:58 pm

neillusion
good for you.

johanna
April 22, 2014 2:30 pm

Willis said:
“However, Johanna always casts herself in the “savior of downtrodden women”
——————————————-
Yet another absurd, sweeping statement from someone who apparently knows everything about everybody (although he missed that Hilary Ostrov is Jewish, because only an evangelical Christian could possibly disagree with his Received Wisdom.) .
Do you have any evidence for this assertion, Willis? The “always” in your throwaway line really caught my attention. Have you been snooping about me? How on earth would you know what I “always” do or say?
Must say that the women in this thread are not especially downtrodden. Oh, and Pamela, how are you doing with supporting your claim that Janice backtracked from her position?

milodonharlani
April 22, 2014 3:00 pm

Mark Bofill says:
April 22, 2014 at 1:23 pm
Already gone on too long, but will respond with my take on this post & its comments, since you asked for opinions.
My initial reaction was not to read Willis’ post. This is Mr. W@tts’ blog, so of course it’s his right to publish whatever he wants. Yet since Willis claimed that my comments on NASA’s investigating the possibility of strange life on Titan weren’t about science, I’ve found it strange that his autobiographical sketches feature here from time to time. It would never have occurred to me to eulogize my dad, who died on March 1, here, even though his careers on land, at sea & in the air could be mined for scientific comment in general & climatology in particular.
However I did read Willis’ eulogy after seeing some of the comments, &, as above, felt his response to Janice’s condescension not unduly harsh. As long as biography counts among “puzzling things in life”, then IMO both the post itself & lengthy commentary thereupon have been appropriate, even if not all individual comments have been.
The main topic of this blog necessarily occasions political comments, since public policy in a number of areas is highly relevant, but IMO religion should be avoided. I’ve commented on it myself at too great length, albeit in response to the misguided who try to inject their religious beliefs into scientific discussion.
As well they might, since Dr. Spencer himself does. I don’t feel the need to posit a Creator to explain the observable fact that earth’s climate is homeostatic, as he does.

April 22, 2014 3:53 pm

I just check in at times to see if David Ball saw this.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/04/18/my-friend-billy-2/#comment-1618373
Willis, I am sorry for your loss. Death is not a friend. A release from pain maybe, but not a friend.
Do you really want what you intended as a eulogy (whether your intention was clear or not) to Billy to continue as it has?
I’d encourage you and all to let the diversion from that drop.

johanna
April 22, 2014 4:13 pm

Willis said:
“For others who missed it as well, let me say it specifically. Janice, I apologize for saying don’t come back to the thread. That was part of the “over-the-top” nature of my response that I apologized for before. I was upset by your crass and intrusive behavior, but that was no reason to say go away and never come back, and I was wrong to say that.”
————————————————–
She was “crass and intrusive”, you told her to f*** off, but now you are all forgiving and she is a coward if she doesn’t respond?
Keep digging, pal.

milodonharlani
April 22, 2014 4:48 pm

Willis Eschenbach says:
April 22, 2014 at 4:17 pm
My dad put up with friends trying to convert him during the last of his 92 eventful, adventurous years, but he too found it strange that they tried to save him. His mom was a Presbyterian & his wife a Baptist, so he had been forced to wade through swamps of Calvinism his entire life. It wasn’t as if he hadn’t heard the Good News. He had, ad nauseum, & rejected it long ago & for good. He was easy going in his atheism, inquisitive & open minded, however. He was surprised that I thought one Joshua, son of Joseph of Nazareth probably actually lived in 1st century Galilee & was crucified in the Roman province of Judea.
I hope these comments have wised up some prospective proselytizers as to proper behavior here.

milodonharlani
April 22, 2014 5:01 pm

PS: Any chance he might have had of adopting Christianity was squelched by the exploitation he observed of Alaskan, Yukon & NWT Eskimos & Indians by missionaries while flying around the North in a Ford Tri-Motor as a teen in the ’30s.
IMO you replied to Janice just as you would have to a male interloper, making you an equal opportunity anti-proselytizer, of which fact Johanna ought to approve.

April 22, 2014 5:05 pm

From the top, willis references…
Instead, it is a discussion of the following well-known wanted criminal: Mr Death
I just got done expending a bunch of sweat and tears to tell a detailed, complex, moving true account of my own personal life.
Up jumps Janice, and she wants to hijack what I’ve written. She starts twisting my true account of my own life into…
I took a long time and a lot of effort to craft a powerful story, and she wants to jump in and use the drama and the strength and the pathos and passion of my story for her own personal, private, parochial religious ends. I’m sorry, Mark, but that’s plagiarism and worse. I will not let her ride on my work that way. I will not let her twist my words in that fashion.
But I will not have her stealing my heart-felt song of life and death for her own religious purposes.
Willis Eschenbach says:
April 19, 2014 at 12:52 pm
Next, I won’t let someone use my stories about my life to sell their personal beliefs.
Approx…
10 pages misc deaths/anecdotes re: willis’ life
6 pages on Willis/Billy
4 pages on the services etc rigmarole getting him certified dead and over to mortuary
A search of the word eulogy produces the first approx 52 comments in by Weathep, Willis using it, only after a couple of references preceding his, approx 100 comments in
If you ask me part autobiography, part obituary, open for discussion/contributions of whatever one feels moved to make

milodonharlani
April 22, 2014 5:09 pm

davideisenstadt says:
April 21, 2014 at 1:07 pm
Now that was funny.
Do not press down upon the brow of commenting this crown of thorns!

April 22, 2014 5:20 pm

“He’d use his grief as a cloak.”
Bye.

Gary Hladik
April 22, 2014 5:21 pm

milodonharlani says (April 22, 2014 at 4:48 pm): “He was surprised that I thought one Joshua, son of Joseph of Nazareth probably actually lived in 1st century Galilee & was crucified in the Roman province of Judea.”
This takes me decades back to my college years, when I took a summer class in comparative religion. Among our guest lecturers were a minister, who claimed that history had verified the existence of Jesus, and a rabbi, who claimed history had not. 🙂 Amused, I added that disagreement to my long list of things to look up “someday”. Prompted by your comment, today I did just that. For what it’s worth, wiki agrees with you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
Fun fact: Typing my search term into Google, I got as far as “roman records” when autocomplete added “of jesus”. Must be a popular search, at least around Easter. 🙂

Gary Hladik
April 22, 2014 5:30 pm

Gunga Din says (April 22, 2014 at 5:20 pm): ‘“He’d use his grief as a cloak.”’
Best not to poke a porcupine, cloaked or not. 🙂

April 22, 2014 5:36 pm

willis,
johanna never wrote that you called Janice a coward, so what ya going on about? fake indignation
Willis – I wouldn’t walk away from it, as doing that strongly suggests that you think that people’s objections are correct but are unwilling to admit it.
me… er isn’t that your hint her action/inaction is cowardly, could be the basis of johanna’s question, you know, a question, asking if u think….., as it’s surely a subtle possibility
Joanna ….”keep diggin, pal” said with earthy tones (nice one)
methinks he doth protest to much

davideisenstadt
April 22, 2014 5:37 pm

milodonharlani says:
April 22, 2014 at 5:09 pm
thanks.
theres nothing worse than having what you think is a good joke go over like a lead balloon…

milodonharlani
April 22, 2014 5:39 pm

Gary Hladik says:
April 22, 2014 at 5:21 pm
That’s pretty funny. I tried it & the top autocomplete was the same.
In college, an atheist friend of mine argued for a conspiracy by the Church to destroy the portions of Tacitus’ account of the Roman siege of Jerusalem which might have borne on both the historicity of the (then decades dead) Jesus & the early, Jewish phase Christianity (although Paul, missionary to the Gentiles, was already himself probably dead in AD 70). I OTOH was willing to consider that those pages just happened to get lost, as with so much else of ancient literature.

April 22, 2014 5:45 pm

Just to correct you willis, big strong men have jumped up to defend the truth, not the women, or the men, the truth, willis – google it.

John Whitman
April 22, 2014 5:52 pm

My sad parting comment in this thread.
{apology to McLean’s American Pie}

Janice Moore left with the blues
As Willis stopped her further clues
As she just smiled and turned away
I went down to Watt’s skeptic floor
Where I’d seen openness weeks before
But the mood there was that balance wouldn’t play
And in that thread some had screamed
And some cried out, and the lurkers dreamed
But Moore was still unspoken
As good will was all broken
And the blog thing I admired most-
A free, fun, and open post –
Its on the last train for the coast
This day a dialog died
When it should be zinging
Bye bye skeptical high
. . .

John

johanna
April 22, 2014 6:02 pm

P.S. – where is your apology to Nancy, who you used Michael Mann like tactics to attack personally, rather than what she said.
Nancy answered your accusations directly by identifying herself. Still waiting for an apology from the serial accuser with a ponytail, which differentiates him from MM..

johanna
April 22, 2014 6:06 pm

Willis said:
PS—Of course, johanna, you are 100% correct about the “always”. Such sweeping statements are always wrong … I should have said “johanna loves to cast herself in the “savior of downtrodden women” role”, that would have been more accurate. My apologies, moving too fast.
———————————
Yep, that’s Wlillis, just making it up as he goes along.

bushbunny
April 22, 2014 6:56 pm

I was the first to post on this thread, but I would like to explain why. When I said Willis should enter his piece in a short story competition, I meant it of course. But seeing his response to Janice, whom I saw no deliberate insult to Willis, it reminded me of the times when I taught creative writing. Some wannabee writers, amateurs, have to abide by certain technical writing tools. Every short story should have a beginning, middle and ending. That makes up a story, but the ending can be in the beginning of course and flash back the rest. Some have absolutely no talent when they start to recall anecdotes about their personal feelings on a subject or happening. They become almost personal reflections and like a diary entry and no interest to other audiences. This piece has sparked some sympathy but also religious diatribe.
When you try to give some constructive criticism, they behave like Willis. Writing is very personal to them to reveal their inner feelings. It is good therapy too, and I used encourage some writers who had no intention of being published, just to share it with me. By doing this it allowed them to exorcise some demons that were haunting them. Especially about injustice or abuse in their early life. Sadness from the loss of a dear pet.
Fiction is so much more fun, when you make up composite characters with real people in mind, and kill them off or afford them their just desserts. (Like M.Man LOL) That’s why they say the pen is more dangerous than the sword.
Willis you are no Hemingway, but everyone can relate to the death of a loved one, but your responses have to be handled less aggressively. And Johanna, Pam and Janice, I’m with you.
And some here are mixing it to make this simple story of bereavement into a heated debate about
religion and personal bitterness against religion. Remember it is the singer not the song and some of you have shown up as bigots. And Janice don’t respond.
And Willis if you enter this story into a competition it will not get past the slush pile.
Let’s get back to climate change and AGW. And Willis get off your soap box, there is no absolute.

Pamela Gray
April 22, 2014 7:14 pm

Johanna, like I said, I know the mindset of the evangalist (as in been there, done that). The minute Willis responded as he did, she began dealing with the opposing issues presented in biblical text and trying to figure out how to undo the offense. There are many opposing biblical views about what one should do when the attempt to convert has backfired. For example, causing another to sin because we put a stumbling block in their path is a bad thing to do, versus, we are to wipe the dust from our sandals if the house we offend turns us away. Or go out and make disciples versus pray in private. Or be in this world but not of this world. There are many examples of this dichotomy and leaves the well-meaning evangalist twisting this way and that to get out of the sticky situations they find themselves in. Most apologize for offending. Some do not. And all, I fear, never apologize for evangalizing.
So yes, in her mind, I am betting a good solid bet that she backtracked to the apologize for offending stage and is just trying to figure out how to do that. I doubt she will take the real step. But if she does, my hat is off to her. In any event, I have no doubt at all she is sorry she has offended.

bushbunny
April 22, 2014 7:17 pm

Well Willis your sensitivity regarding religious people, must affect you more than others. I know many religious people of different faiths, I have ‘witnesses’ that drop me off the occasional ‘Watch tower’ and I invite them in for a cup of coffee. They are lovely people, and we have become friends over the 10 years. He gave me a essay (he has a Ph.D in ancient history) he wrote explaining the creation and how the six days in Genesis was wrong. As an evolutionist my only criticism, he should have referenced more than the bible as what he had written was very close to what I feel too. So sometimes some people quote biblical text to try to reinforce the meaning.
I have no liking for the SDAC, as my only granddaughter is not allowed to communicate with me, or me her, because I am an evolutionist. That to me is not Christian or putting me down as a non believer.

milodonharlani
April 22, 2014 7:22 pm

Pamela Gray says:
April 22, 2014 at 7:14 pm
If truly sorry & repentant, then why does she keep trying to evangelize?
bushbunny says:
April 22, 2014 at 6:56 pm
Who is the bigot, she who assumes that I can’t possibly be happy, good or decent, let alone saved, without embracing the blasphemous lies of Janice’s anti-reality cult, so make it her duty to impose her abject drivel on us (even more inappropriately in a science blog than in the physical world of unwanted, uninvited Jehovah’s Witnesses at the door), or those of us who object to this insulting attitude?

bushbunny
April 22, 2014 7:53 pm

Milo, well Jesus may not have started Christianity, but Paul did. They both preached. Your last post assumes that Janice is blasphemous, come on that is bigotry. Well in my book anyway.
I don’t know which country you are a citizen of, but in the USA, Britain and Australia religion is separate from State. They are not a theocracy, so don’t wear a crucifix in Saudi Arabia or you will be arrested. And don’t drive around Jerusleum in a car on their sabbath, in the orthodox sector, or you will be stoned. Luckily we have freedom for most religious practices. But we are not forced to follow any one religioun, as it was in the 16th century. Didn’t the people who came to America on the May Flower were escaping religious persecution. And it still goes on today.
Religious tolerance is one of the things missing on this thread, I am ashamed to say.

Mark Bofill
April 22, 2014 8:03 pm

Bushbunny,

Didn’t the people who came to America on the May Flower were escaping religious persecution…

Interesting question of fact. Let me disclaim this by saying I learned this in a college course as a callow youth who’d yet to realize that one’s professors don’t always necessarily give you ‘the Truth the Whole Truth and Nothing But’. Having so disclaimed, I was taught that at least some of the people who came over were worried about the religious practices over in England, that they were not pure enough, and they wanted to get an ocean between themselves and the impending imminent ‘Wrath of God’ which they expected to be visited apon the wicked in England.
Anybody know anything about this?

bushbunny
April 22, 2014 8:41 pm

Well I can understand this, history is sometimes one sided, like some religious faiths. I honestly feel very sorry for people who have irrational fears and believe what they hear from a pastor as the gospel truth, no pun intended.
One threat I heard a SDAC follower tell me, that in America they were banning their church from having their Sabbath on a Saturday. For heavens sakes girl, so do the Jews.That is crap.

Hilary Ostrov (aka hro001)
April 22, 2014 9:44 pm

Willis Eschenbach says: April 22, 2014 at 4:50 pm
johanna says: April 22, 2014 at 4:13 pm
[Willis had written:]

“For others who missed it as well, let me say it specifically. Janice, I apologize for saying don’t come back to the thread. That was part of the “over-the-top” nature of my response that I apologized for before. I was upset by your crass and intrusive behavior, but that was no reason to say go away and never come back, and I was wrong to say that.”

[To which johanna had responded:]

She was “crass and intrusive”, you told her to f*** off, but now you are all forgiving and she is a coward if she doesn’t respond?
Keep digging, pal.

Following which, Willis <even when he’s wrong, he’s always right> Eschenbach, predictably avoided the obvious implication of his very own words, i.e. as Nancy G. had noted earlier:

you repeatedly said you had apologized when you didn’t really. Any apology that had a “but” attached to it isn’t a real apology. You basically say I’m sorry I was so harsh, but she deserved it. Not an apology.

Instead, he chose to (perhaps conveniently?!) forget that earlier today he had also written:

I would still be hanging around, and either strongly defending what I had said, or strongly apologizing for it. I wouldn’t walk away from it, as doing that strongly suggests that you think that people’s objections are correct but are unwilling to admit it. That suggestion that you are unwilling to admit you were wrong might not be true in the slightest, for Janice or anyone else who does that … but it sure gives that impression.
So yes, it’s both bad strategy and bad tactics to post something and then walk away without a word when someone questions it or objects to it.

I’m not quite sure what single word or phrase WUWTs Wonderful Wordsmith Willis™ would have chosen to summarize the above. But you must have chosen the wrong one, johanna! Tsk. Tsk. Tsk. And in so doing, you broke his cardinal rule, thereby invoking the wrath of Willis who immediately glommed onto your unfortunate choice of the word “coward”:

Coward? You liar, I never called her a coward, and you know it.

You see, johanna, the rules of the game are: Thou shalt always quote Willis’ “exact” words. So that (if he cannot immediately conjure up some lame excuse or other) he can simply snip and run away from them. Just as he did earlier in this thread when I had the temerity to remind him of his warm-up exercises: His barrage of baseless claims that Janice was “hijacking [his] thread”, “plagiarizing and worse” and “twisting [his] words”.
If I’ve learned nothing else through my conversations (for want of a better word) with Willis in the last year or so, it’s that it is utterly pointless to expect Willis to substantiate his claims (or quote another’s “exact” words).
You see, his interpretation (which, as we all know, is the only one that counts on one of his threads) will trump anyone’s exact words in context, every single time. So, in light of Willis’ iron rule that others must obey, some might conclude that he has a double-standard. But I couldn’t possibly comment.
This was a mere warm-up exercise prior to launching into his full-blown fantasy and ludicrous repeated (by now ad nauseam) assertions that she was “seeking converts”, “giving a sermon” and “proselytizing”. Not to mention the corollary that anyone who did not see her actual words “through [his] eyes” must (by his definition which, again, is the only one that counts) also be a Christian evangelist. And if this should turn out not to be the case, well, of course it’s not his fault that he might have so wrongly concluded.
All of which, of course, pales in comparison to his allegedly ‘unmet challenge’ via his diversionary reframing: His coup de grâce, an “analogy” (also repeated ad nauseam throughout this thread) to which one is, evidently, supposed to respond and/or agree with.
Some might ignore this “challenge” because – apart from requiring a “prior” blind acceptance of his baseless claims and unproven assertions – the analogy is so inept, inapt, insulting to one’s intelligence and (as with so many iterations of his obnoxious self-exculpatory and/or diversionary tirades) ultimately, immaterial. But, again, I couldn’t possibly comment.

John R T
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
April 22, 2014 11:02 pm

Thank you, Willis; I try to live my faith. ‘They will know we are Christians by our love.’ I have not tried to ‘sell’ my denomination, nor my religious affiliation. On several occasions, co-workers, family members, a traveller sitting beside me, have asked, ‘Why/how are you so content/happy?’ I tell them of my faith. I can claim no convert. I have had a little success in ‘selling’ a process, an approach, by demonstrating a benefit greater than that enjoyed under an existing regime. Most of us become accustomed to, and accepting of, our current situation. Pointing out errors is wrong-footed. Your vigorous, maybe vehement, attachment to your world view and philosophy is noteworthy. I see little skepticism, there. Nor does there appear to be ease and contentment. Thank heaven for dedicated explorers and analysts.
best wishes, John
On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 10:55 PM, Watts Up With That? wrote:
> Willis Eschenbach commented: “John R T says: April 22, 2014 at 11:05 > am PS: {Somewhere up-thread, at least twice, you claimed that salespersons > had to show the prospective buyer his wrong-ness; where did you learn this? > I never made a sale by talking down the person with the money” >

Gary Hladik
April 22, 2014 10:16 pm

Hilary Ostrov (aka hro001) says: “But, again, I couldn’t possibly comment.”
LOL. Possibly the funniest line in the entire thread. Kudos!

bushbunny
April 23, 2014 12:13 am

To answer your last question, Willis, I think you are responding in an irrational pattern. We like Janice and you have held sway over this thread for too long. And I believe you are berating anyone that puts in an alternative argument that you does not 100% support your attitude and frame of mind. You are in my opinion very narrow minded, and possibly too humbugish.
Anthony how long are you letting this thread go on?

bushbunny
April 23, 2014 12:40 am

No comment, No comment, No Comment!

Hilary Ostrov (aka hro001)
April 23, 2014 12:46 am

Willis Eschenbach says:April 22, 2014 at 10:31 pm

Hilary, you are suffering from a senior moment. You claim that I “chose to (perhaps conveniently?!) forget that earlier today he had also written” the part you quote.
In fact, I QUOTED THAT EXACT SECTION IN MY RESPONSE TO JOHANNA.

OMG! How could I have possibly overlooked that?! Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpla!
But while it is totally unforgivable of me, I agree, there are actually two very valid reasons (at least from my perspective; although I have the rather distinct impression that my perspective is of very little interest to you). Anyway, for those who might be interested, here they are, not necessarily in any order of priority.
I had intended to append to that portion of my post the remarkable contrast I had observed earlier (in my comment to John Whitman) between those very words and your much earlier barrage.
But truth be told (and here comes the second reason) I was laughing so hard watching Eschenbach-in-Lewandowsky-mode-on-steroids with his, “That’s just your nasty man-hating nature coming out [and following]” that as I was scrolling through the rest of your tirade, I must have missed it!
Oh, well … c’est la vie.
P.S. Willis, since you have decreed that “coward”** is unacceptable, inaccurate or whatever your self-serving scathing scolding of the hour might be … What word or phrase would you have chosen to summarize the essence of the rather winding and long-winded text I had overlooked during my laughter-driven scroll-through?!
**Although used by johanna without quotes, thereby distinguishing it from your very own words for which she did use quotes – which you seem to have missed because during the course of your tirade you wrongly attributed your very own words to johanna.

davideisenstadt
April 23, 2014 12:55 am

willis, hillary…
plaese stop.
its like driving by a horrific automobile crash…its a morbid curiosity that makes me come back and read…please, both of you just drop it.
its unseemly, and unproductive and ugly.
just stop.

johanna
April 23, 2014 7:09 am

As I said, do you always need a spokeswoman to demand apologies on behalf of some other woman? Now you’re complaining about my treatment of Nancy and johanna … can’t one of you speak for yourself?
Do you not see that you are perpetuating the “weak woman” stereotype by implicitly claiming that you need to protect and defend Janice and Nancy? That assumes that they are unable to protect themselves … which I don’t believe at all, but you seem to.
——————————————
Here we go again. If we say nothing, it proves assent. If we say something, it proves that the people we speak for are “weak” so it can be ignored.
The Jesuits have nothing on this bloke.
I’m not very fussed about you misquoting me, as Hilary pointed out. As I said above, when it comes to attacking women, facts tend to go astray in your diatribes.
As for the ponytail, thank goodness you have grown up finally and got rid of it. But there was a youtube clip of you speaking at (I think) a Heartland conference some years ago where it was very much in evidence.
OK, I’ll recant. Your tactics are just like Michael Mann’s, minus the ponytail.

johanna
April 23, 2014 7:23 am

I should add that the attribution of sinister motives to those who disagree with you has a lot of pioneering work by a Professor Stephan Lewandowsky. Why is Hilary Ostrov, a Jew, behaving like an evangelical Christian? Dr Lew (and Willis) can fill you in. Why is johanna’s defence of other people an example of conspiracist ideation? Dr Lew and Willis have all the answers!

Gary Hladik
April 23, 2014 9:38 am

bushbunny says (April 23, 2014 at 12:13 am): “Anthony how long are you letting this thread go on?”
How long will you keep reading it?

milodonharlani
April 23, 2014 10:07 am

bushbunny says:
April 22, 2014 at 7:53 pm
It’s not bigotry to describe Janice’s cult as blasphemous, because by the standards of the genuine Christianity she claims to profess, that is precisely what her beliefs are. The Intelligent Designer of creationists is necessarily cruel, deceptive & incompetent, ie a hideous monster unworthy of worship, not the supposed God of love.

milodonharlani
April 23, 2014 10:20 am

Mark Bofill says:
April 22, 2014 at 8:03 pm
The Mayflower Pilgrims were indeed Puritans (Brownist Dissenters), who had in fact already fled persecution in England by moving to the Netherlands (Leiden, Holland). But they didn’t want their kids growing up Dutch, so they decided to build their own civilization in the New World, specifically “the northern part of Virginia”, now known as Plymouth, Massachusetts. They blew it by settling there instead of on the site of Boston.
I, like so many other Americans, am descended from them & from the earlier immigrants to Jamestown, Virginia, who came for gold rather than God, but ended up planting tobacco.

Mark Bofill
April 23, 2014 10:37 am

Milodonharlani,
Thanks. I didn’t really have any particular point I was making, just curious. I read Wikipedia’s account and gather that perhaps religious tolerance wasn’t precisely what one might call a Puritan virtue.
~shrug~ It doesn’t really matter with respect to the original point I think, just trivia.

April 23, 2014 12:12 pm

500 comments !

Hilary Ostrov (aka hro001)
April 23, 2014 3:17 pm

davideisenstadt says:April 23, 2014 at 12:55 am

willis, hillary…
plaese stop.
its like driving by a horrific automobile crash…its a morbid curiosity that makes me come back and read…please, both of you just drop it.
its unseemly, and unproductive and ugly.
just stop.

David,
The view from here, so to speak, is that this whole “crash” could easily have been averted – by he who now insists that one whom he initially insulted and – in no uncertain terms – made it quite clear that her further participation here was most unwelcome, should somehow have divined that he has “apologized” and that therefore she should return to “defend herself” against his accusations.
But that aside, as a pattern-picker-outer from way back when, I don’t recall exactly when these particular posting patterns (and such a preponderance of text which reflects classic exercises in projection) of Willis’ began to emerge. But they became very noticeable to me during the course of the McNutt “open letter” thread (circa August 2013). Some of which were repeated/recyled during the Spencer thread (circa October 2013). This particular thread, though, has (in large part) been an encore performance of the McNutt thread.
And speaking of performances … One of the things that has particularly struck me is the contrast between the ‘passionate and complex’ man Willis keeps telling us he is and the exceedingly flat and monotonal affect that is evident from his video presentations (or at least the ones I’ve seen!)
All of which is quite off-topic for this thread (and blog). So, perhaps one day, when I have nothing better to blog about, I’ll pull together the evidence (of which he has provided an abundance … but don’t take my word for it … take your mouse for a scroll through the blue bully pulpit posts on this and the other two threads I mentioned!)
Maybe I’ll call it Portrait of the Artist as a Recyle-Man. Or perhaps, How doth he browbeat thee, let us count the ways. 😉
Cheers,
Hilary

milodonharlani
April 23, 2014 3:29 pm

Mark Bofill says:
April 23, 2014 at 10:37 am
The Puritan record for toleration is no different from Anglican or Catholic history. In fact, better, since they didn’t burn heretics when briefly in control of England (under Cromwell), as did the other two denominations.
The last person burned at the stake for heresy in England was Edward Wightman, condemned by the Church of England under James I.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Wightman
It was this wave of persecution which the Pilgrims fled, first to Holland, then Massachusetts, where the Puritans, instead of burning religious liberty proponent Roger Williams, the founder of Rhode Island, merely expelled him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Williams_%28theologian%29

davideisenstadt
April 23, 2014 4:22 pm

Hilary Ostrov (aka hro001) says:
April 23, 2014 at 3:17 pm
hillary:
You are so much more accomplished than I am, you write better than I can and your analysis is always spot on…
Im only writing that you made your point really well, and the “dispute” between you and willis is clear for us all to see…I dont see you two resolving it here in this venue.
be well.
david

April 23, 2014 4:33 pm

Janice knew what she was doing and cheerfully did it.
Folks don’t hesitate to bust Willis’ chops even if they have to invent excuses for it – but, shucks and darn, it was just “impossible” for Janice to come back and make amends. Willis said she couldn’t. so there. Instead, she sucks up sympathy on other threads.
Now we have a couple of toothless chihuahua’s trying to once again gnaw away at Willis because he isn’t PC enough for their oh so delicate sensibilities.

bushbunny
April 23, 2014 7:54 pm

This thread is turning into a ‘domestic’ isn’t it. LOL. Yeah I am quite fascinated to not delete it, but when we look at it, it just started when Janice tried to comfort Willis and he rejected it violently.
Then it went into religious persecution and arguments, over the manner that Willis handled his negative respondents of him. And some are wrong, not all creationist religions, believe in the exact description in the Holy bible that the earth was formed in 6 days. However, the processes are spot on. That’s if you add 000,000, 000, to the time period. I mean Sarah Palin reckoned humans walked with dinosaurs. We would never have survived if we had! You have to remember, people were not scientifically minded and nor were the prophets, they were more interested in calming people and to support their way of life.
By the way, just remember we obey conventions in our particular society, and we tend to dislike extremists who without any invitation, come along and try to assume if we don’t believe in their God and religious laws, we obviously believe in the Devil. But behind it is politics, politics rules our way of life. Be it male vs female, child vs parent, a lawgiver vs criminal.
But one of my cliches is, I will not stand by and see harm done, or I am as bad as the perpetrator of harm. Anyway keep going, the Gods are watching and hearing you all. LOL

Mark Bofill
April 23, 2014 8:00 pm

milodonharlani says:
April 23, 2014 at 3:29 pm

The Puritan record for toleration is no different from Anglican or Catholic history.

Quite so, I agree.

milodonharlani
April 23, 2014 8:07 pm

Mark Bofill says:
April 23, 2014 at 8:00 pm
As I noted, it’s actually better, based upon heretic burning & other measures of tolerance. When the Puritans were in control under the Commonwealth, they did try to force all parishes in the Church of England to worship along their lines, but didn’t kill priests or punish parishioners who wanted to go the “High Church” route & emulate Catholic ritual.
I fault them for their iconoclasm, which destroyed much wonderful statuary & many stained glass windows, somewhat restored. And for suppressing the English stage, although the plays that might otherwise have been written in the 1650s would probably not have been of the highest quality.

bushbunny
April 23, 2014 8:40 pm

Cromwell tried to ban Christmas (the pagan part only, Christmas puds, and festivities rather than total Christian devotion only).
He didn’t succeed either. You talk about James lst of England and James VI of Scotland, whose mother Mary Queen of Scots was a catholic. What about Guy (or Guido) Fawkes, the catholic and his 12 conspirators? Who conspired and nearly succeeded in the Gun Power plot. They still burn an image of him on Nov 5th with fireworks each year, although not anti Catholic, Catholics were not emancipated until the 19th Century. If I remember rightly he may have died the worst death of all, hanged, drawn and quartered, but avoided mutilation by jumping from the scaffold and breaking his neck.
What about Salem too. Religion has been the source of terrible conflicts, and it still is.

Gary Hladik
April 23, 2014 10:15 pm

bushbunny says (April 23, 2014 at 7:54 pm): “Anyway keep going, the Gods are watching and hearing you all.”
We are indeed, and We are NOT amused. You puny humans squabble too much. That’s why we’re gradually replacing you all with machines:
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/cows-make-friends-with-robots–everybody-s-happier-135937575.html

bushbunny
April 23, 2014 10:44 pm

Ha, ha, ha Gary, with so much negativity on this thread, just make sure our puters, don’t rebel, and get struck by lightening. LOL.

Hilary Ostrov (aka hro001)
April 25, 2014 3:03 pm

Willis Eschenbach says: April 25, 2014 at 3:01 am

[…]
Let me get this straight.[…]

And had he done so, I think it might well have been a first in this particular thread!
Instead – as anyone who might take his/her mouse for a scroll back through this thread can plainly see – we are treated to five consecutive encores (beginning at 2:30 a.m. and winding down at 3:54 a.m.) of recycled self-serving churnings from the windmills of Willis <even when he’s spectacularly wrong, he’s right> Eschenbach’s brilliant mind.
IOW, while Willis demonstrates (for the umpteenth time) his somewhat … well … elastic interpretation of the word “exactly” [Translation for newbies: Because. Willis. Said. So. (BWSS for short) Over and over and over again], if we choose to comment, we’re supposed to play his little game of ‘my claim, prove me wrong’.
And we must be sure to don our kid gloves first! Not that it will make much difference, once he finds some words or other that he can glom onto as a hook in order to regale us with further iterations of the non-responsive self-serving same!
Because, folks, it’s his thread and his and – most important of all – his perceptions that are the only ones that count. Unless, of course, you choose to demonstrate that you hold him ‘n all his words in the same unimpeachable high esteem as he does, forever and ever. Amen! Then you’ll probably get a “pass”!
In the meantime, since Willis had earlier indicated that he has no way of contacting Janice privately (to apologize and invite her back) and as I had subsequently remarked to John Whitman, I still cannot imagine why any self-respecting person should be expected to monitor and/or resume participation in a thread whose ‘owner’ had very clearly and unambiguously declared that s/he was not welcome.
Yet, Willis still appears to harbour a very strong expectation that such a person should somehow have divined his subsequent “apology” (that clearly really wasn’t) and returned to the thread to defend her/himself against his accusations.
And if – sin of all heinous sins – anyone should have the audacity to call a spade a spade by pointing out that this (or any of his myriad BWSS claims for that matter) is not a very reasonable (or rational) expectation (and/or “argument”) on his part, then such an individual is deemed (by he whose interpretations and/or inferences are the only ones that count) to have “accused [him] of being a very bad and foolish person.”
In this instance, I am the one who has been so deemed. Not because I had actually written anything that might resemble such “accusations”, but simply BWSS. As is, unfortunately – and notwithstanding his protestations to the contrary – all too often the case.
Willis is certainly not one to cite scriptures with any noticeable frequency. And now we most certainly do know why; even if it wasn’t evident in this particular post of his, or in any others that I can recall!
But once he’s thrown a BWSS on the virtual table, he does seem to be quite fond of running (and re-running ad nauseam) his very own carefully crafted scripts. Although it is worth noting that – perhaps for a little variety – he does, on occasion, sparingly (albeit sometimes jarringly!) pepper them with words and/or phrases he might well have picked up from someone else’s table.
YMMV, but that’s the view from here, so to speak 😉
P.S. Willis, don’t worry your un-pony-tailed head! When I do get around to pulling together the evidence (of which, as I had noted, you have very kindly provided an abundance over the last few years) for a post on my own blog, I’ll be sure to let you know. Or, at the very least, I’ll try my best to do so!
In the meantime, do carry on, Recyle-man!

Gary Hladik
April 25, 2014 3:03 pm

Willis Eschenbach says (April 25, 2014 at 2:30 am): “I fear that you have mistaken me for someone else. I absolutely don’t rock a pony-tail,”
I watched one of your presentations, and thought “Hey, Johanna is right, he does have a– Oh, wait, it’s just his loose eyeglass band.” Might that be the source of her misconception?
Willis Eschenbach says (April 25, 2014 at 3:54 am): “But in this context, what possible threat do I have?”
Ah, the internet, the great equalizer…where the 90-pound weakling who gets sand kicked in his face at the beach is a match for the biggest, hairiest man (or woman) who ever lived!

Latitude
April 25, 2014 6:10 pm

This thread is a hoot…
Janice makes two posts, is told she is proselytizing for her religion….and leaves over a week ago
…and for the next week, people are proselytizing against religion
proselytizing for a religion…. proselytizing against religion
They are both disgusting
proselytizing is proselytizing……

Latitude
April 25, 2014 6:12 pm

oh crap, I keep forgetting the mandatory quote:
Willis Eschenbach says:
April 18, 2014 at 11:27 pm
Janice, you using my father-in-law’s death as an excuse for proselytizing for your religion is disgusting.

Rose
April 25, 2014 9:04 pm

[snip – personal love dramas written in SHOUTING ALL CAPS aren’t for publication here -mod]

Latitude
April 26, 2014 6:09 am

Claiming that both sides are somehow equivalent is just a cheap trick to try to win a debate. Sorry, Latitude, you’ll need to do better than that.
========
No I don’t……You would be the first one to jump on me for my lack of reading skills
“people are”….is not followed by some rambling post with a bunch of “I’s” in it

johanna
April 26, 2014 7:53 am

A million page views per year! Just on your own merits, like if you started your own blog!.
Not.
Face it, Willis, your wild and irrational responses to women you don’t like have caused you a lot of trouble. Now, you might claim that this is because they are all lunatics.
But, your response is, oh please, please, don’t throw me into the briar patch!
I also noticed that above you scoffed at the suggestion that someone like Hilary Ostrov might do a systematic review of your feral behaviour when challenged.
Let’s put it this way. Its comparable to having a right-of centre group being audited by the IRS, a greenie being checked out for rorting taxpayers or Michael Mann being audited by McIntyre, as having Hilary Ostrov on the case about posts and comments on blogs. Your arrogant assumption that everyone else is dumber than you has got you into trouble in the past, and will again.
But, whatever floats your Hemingwayesque boat, Willis.
Why is it than every one of your posts starts with things like “now I’m a curious guy”, and so on? People like Bob Tisdale, who I greatly respect, don’t need to insert their favourable personal characteristics into their posts. I mean, Bob could say “Now I’m a handsome guy”, or “Well, none of you will be surprised to hear that I had to find out more about this” in front of his posts. But he doesn’t.

johanna
April 26, 2014 9:14 am

Oh, and in case anyone is in doubt about Wliis’ “position”, he said:
“Janice tried to convert me to Christianity, and told me that my beliefs were all wrong and screwed up.”

Gary Hladik
April 26, 2014 11:29 am

Hilary Ostrov (aka hro001) says (April 25, 2014 at 3:03 pm): “P.S. Willis, don’t worry your un-pony-tailed head! When I do get around to pulling together the evidence (of which, as I had noted, you have very kindly provided an abundance over the last few years) for a post on my own blog, I’ll be sure to let you know.”
Careful, Willis. Hilary is the proud owner of WillisEschenbachStinks.com, .net, and .org. What does that tell you?

🙂

bushbunny
April 26, 2014 8:53 pm

Willis, I can’t see how Janice called you a liar, sorry. If her comments have hit a raw nerve, for reasons I can not understand, I don’t think Billy would like you going on and on about something Janice said and you took offense. You were obviously looking for sympathy and understanding and I honestly believe you have handled this very badly. Other people on this blog, have gone through loss and anguish losing those close to us. Especially losing parents or our children. I think the way we handle this without support can become very lonely and we grapple with anger, and setting blame, and deep sorrow one could have done something to prevent a tragedy. We question ‘why’ this happened, it is easier when a person has lived their life to old age. Keeping alive becomes sometimes a burden when someone is terminally ill. And also to those who watch their slow demise. And the feeling you could have done something to stop a child from committing suicide or lack of appropriate support as they spiraled into self destruction.
I am on chemotherapy at present, not because I have cancer or AIDS, yet the same pill is for these disorders. Because I have high platelets. I am angry about this, as I don’t feel as well as I used too before taking this powerful drug. But – my mother died of AML but she was 91. Anyway, my first blood test will see if it is lowering them. But I am not looking for sympathy, just understanding but my mortality seems a bit closer to me now, than it did one month ago. I am determined to fight it. Death is the final solution of ill health and we should find sympathy for those who are faced with it, everyday. Enough said I think.

Hilary Ostrov (aka hro001)
April 27, 2014 6:30 pm

Sheesh! an 1835-word wall of text rife with so many examples of BWSS (Because. Willis. Said. So.) Although once you remove the hooks from my post to which he’s appended one or more of his non-responsive ‘even when he’s wrong, he’s always right’ recyclings, the word count is reduced by approx. 600.
Not to mention the fact that my comment wasn’t even addressed to him (except for my postscript), but rather to those who might be inclined to do their own research, in order to verify for themselves whether or not my observations of his posting patterns are valid. Unlike some, I prefer not to tell people how they’re supposed to (or in the case of some, virtually obliged to!) read my comments (or those of others).

Dang, Hilary … just dang … so many accusations … so little data. Truly, dear lady, your bitter invective-filled rants, free of any actual facts and full of wrath and venom, are approaching the imbalanced stalker range.

Is that so?! Silly me! Of course, it must be so. BWSS.

However, I’m still waiting for her apology for her actions. Not hoping for it, you understand.
[the usual recycling followed by:]
As you can see, contrary to your foolish claim, I have had NO expectation that she would return. I wished she would, but there seemed little hope for that. [More BWSS]

Oh, but I do understand, completely! What I don’t understand – and what you seem to be misreading, misapprehending and/or incapable of explaining – however, is why anyone in his/her right mind would be still be “waiting for an apology” (regardless of whether or not s/he was “hoping for”, “wished for” or “expecting” such “apology”) when s/he had clearly and unambiguously told the “offender” that her/his presence on the thread was not welcome. Notwithstanding your oft-repeated self-serving excuse that you had subsequently (i.e. when there was no indication that the alleged “offender” was even reading the thread) “apologized” while continuing to blame the victim.

Next, you keep saying that my apology wasn’t sufficient.

No, I have said no such thing. What I have said, although perhaps not in so many words, is that it was beyond “insufficient”. I appreciate that this may well be your perception. And if so, I thank you for confirming an observation I have made previously to the effect that your “perceptions” are the only ones that count – and will trump the actual words of others every single time.
What I did say earlier in this thread, however (not because I’m “defending” anyone, but because I don’t believe in re-inventing perfectly good wheels):

Willis <even when he’s wrong, he’s always right> Eschenbach, predictably avoided the obvious implication of his very own words, i.e. as Nancy G. had noted earlier (emphasis now added by me -hro):
you repeatedly said you had apologized when you didn’t really. Any apology that had a “but” attached to it isn’t a real apology. You basically say I’m sorry I was so harsh, but she deserved it. Not an apology.”

I appreciate that you may not think it’s permissible for others to paraphrase or use analogies, when making their case. But the fact remains that for many, this is perfectly permissible – notwithstanding any of your perceptions.

I indeed said you accused me of being a very bad and foolish person, for not remembering something. I said:
[Willis quoting himself. Again. As if this somehow validates the truth of his accusations. BWSS]
Your answer above is that it’s still my fault, because you don’t like something else I said,
[Willis quoting himself. Again. As if this somehow validates the truth of his accusations. BWSS]

I didn’t say it was your “fault” (or “still your fault” for that matter). Nor did I say I “disliked” what you said. Hell, I didn’t even tell you how ignorant and off the wall it was of you to declare – as you most certainly did – in your “response” to johanna:

“That’s just your nasty man-hating nature coming out [and following]”

I took full responsibility for my laughter and for my unforgivable oversight. You may not perceive it that way, and perhaps in your eyes, such unfounded accusations emanating from your keyboard are no laughing matter.
But … well, to be honest I’m not quite sure how to break this to you, Willis. So (brace yourself!) I’m going to be quite blunt: While you have repeatedly made it quite obvious that your perceptions are the only ones that count, the fact remains that your perceptions are your problem. Not mine, nor that of anyone whose words you choose to depict in a way that is so utterly far-removed from anything they might actually have said!
No doubt BWSS rules, as usual!

Got it. However, a simple apology for your most unpleasant and untrue claim would have sufficed.

Oh, look at that folks! The only valid apology is one that is delivered in the manner Willis has decreed that it should be delivered! Amazing, eh?!

Truly, Hilary, your endless stalking […]

Now, isn’t that just the cat’s whiskers?! He starts off by accusing me of “stalking” and he ends by accusing me of “stalking”. Such poetic and “powerful” crafted symmetry, eh?!
But just for the record, so that I can prepare myself for your next performance, Willis … I do wonder what the “tipping point” might be in your books, before you feel justified in hurling one of your patented volley of baseless insults and declaring (BWSS) that the person you are ostensibly addressing is “obsessed” and “approaching the imbalanced stalker range” and/or engaging in “endless stalking”.
You see, by my count (as of this writing and excluding this comment), there are 528 comments on this thread; of which I had written nine (9). Four (4) of the nine were directly addressed to you, Willis. And while the other five may have been about you and/or your words/actions (as are many comments by others in this thread), I’m not aware of any rule which says this is verboten.
OTOH, of your approx. 84 comments in this thread, nine (9) were – at least ostensibly – addressed directly to me (plus a few other comments of yours in which you took my name in vain, so to speak!)
So, as I said, just for the record … What is the magic “formula”, eh?!
Since your direct comments to me outnumber mine to you by more than two to one, perhaps you would kindly quantify the number by which your comments to me must exceed mine to you before you make the determination that I (or anyone else for that matter) am “obsessed with proving that [you are] the devil incarnate” and “approaching the imbalanced stalker range” and/or engaging in “endless stalking”.
P.S. Also just for the record … Notwithstanding your accusation/declaration/allegation that I had “[accused you] of wrongdoing for not being animated enough in my speeches […] she’ll tell me that she doesn’t like the way I give a speech.” And notwithstanding your failure to “quote my words” (or even provide a link!), what I had actually written (four days ago!) was:

And speaking of performances … One of the things that has particularly struck me is the contrast between the ‘passionate and complex’ man Willis keeps telling us he is and the exceedingly flat and monotonal affect that is evident from his video presentations (or at least the ones I’ve seen!)

By what leap of logic do you infer/perceive – and/or whatever the hell it is you do before you put fingers to keyboard – from the above simple observation of a (mere but obvious) contrast that I have “[accused you] of wrongdoing” or that I “[don’t] like the way [you] give a speech”? Or, for that matter, that I – or anyone – has declared you to be a “bad and foolish person”?
Or is this simply yet another of far too many instances of ‘it must be true’, BWSS – over and over and over again?!

Neillusion
May 1, 2014 2:33 am

Oh boy, I thought it ended at 500.
Willis, Janice’s reference to ‘… .Death cannot give you love. And Death is sometimes a l1ar, gleefully whispering in your ear about the peace it can bring. Death, per se, will not bring peace, for the soul lives on…’
You, Willis, have so oft, misquoted, misrepresented, and twisted what Janice said, it is a grave insult to the intelligent, civilized mind.
IMO Janice’s reference was, essentially, in reference to the suicide’s in your family, and perhaps a caveat for those emotionally moved by your poetic license with death, to consider ‘death’ the answer. Indeed, death, as you so described as a common criminal, is wanted for murder most foul, etc. And u admonish someone claiming he is ‘a liar’, sometimes, tho’ you don’t quote Janice accurately or you couldn’t have your rant…
And more, “The main thing that I have learned in all of my curious interactions with the dead and the dying has been to take Death as my advisor. I have learned that Death gives me better advice than anyone. When it comes to sage wisdom, I found that Death beats all the books and advice columnists and psychologists and grief counselors and what all the authorities say…”
This thread has been an education, perhaps a reminder, that a man can stoop so low. And to go on at the end about ‘winning’, is astonishing, in many contexts.

johanna
May 1, 2014 7:27 am

For me the bottom line is, I’ve forgiven Janice for her trespasses, and I hope that she has forgiven me for trespassing against her.
——————————
What a load of codswallop.
You “forgive” someone who tried to offer a few words of solace (however ill-advised) – in return for which, you doled out thousands of words of abuse. Over and over again, you did it, mentioning her name, and now you “forgive” her.
Well, that must be a great relief to Janice, who no doubt forgave you a long time ago.
Another one of your Greatest Hits, Willis.

johanna
May 2, 2014 6:22 pm

For all we know, Janice wishes you’d go away and leave her name out of your mouth entirely.
—————————————–
I assume that you have not read any of the many threads where Janice and I have exchanged cordialities, especially about birds. Most probably you only read your own with any interest.
You may have missed, for example, the thread about deafness technologies where Janice expressed prayerful wishes for Ant-hony, with the caveat that she hoped that he wouldn’t be offended. She has a sense of humour, something that you sadly lack. And, apparently, he wasn’t offended.
If you are going to cite lurid and inappropriate metaphors, the least that you can do is to spell them correctly. It is Madame Defarge (from Dickens’ A Tale of Two Cities). As is so often the case, your rage overrides your reason and accuracy.
True, I am an internet popup. But Hilary Ostrov is not. Still looking forward to having her analyse your diatribes?
“I’m from the government, and I’m here to help you.”

Gary Hladik
May 3, 2014 11:25 am

Willis Eschenbach says (May 3, 2014 at 9:59 am): “But instead of having the blanquillos to answer the question, in your eagerness to avoid the question you’re all disappearing over the horizon in a cloud of dust.”
Aaaaauuuuuggggghhhhh!!! Will somebody PLEASE answer the darn question????

Hilary Ostrov (aka hro001)
May 3, 2014 12:04 pm

OMG! After declaring himself the ‘winner’ no less than six times in one fare-thee-well post, the prodigal Willis has returned to regale us all with his very own warmed-over recycled recyclings of his wit and wisdom.
johanna says: May 2, 2014 at 6:22 pm

If you are going to cite lurid and inappropriate metaphors, the least that you can do is to spell them correctly. It is Madame Defarge (from Dickens’ A Tale of Two Cities). As is so often the case, your rage overrides your reason and accuracy.

Indeed. And if one adds to this his penchant for making mountains out of the molehills of the typos of others (amongst so many other molehills he elevates to mountainhood in order to promote his self-serving “case”), the mind simply boggles at his ability to hold such a high opinion of his very own pettifoggery (and the “products” thereof).
For example, he keeps making a BFD of the fact that no one has risen to his baiting, boring and oft-repeated question. But, of course, a response to his question in a formulation of which he approves must be the only thing that matters. Because. Willis. Says. So. (BWSS)
While perusing another of his threads a few days ago, I thought it was rather amusing to find his edict:

Lay off the accusations. Not appreciated, not polite

And with this oh-so-quotable-quote from monsieur J’accuse, himself, to hand, scrolling back through this thread (and the countless off-the-wall accusations emanating from his blue bully pulpit), for some strange reason, the aphorism, “Physician, heal thyself,” comes to mind.