Weekend Open Thread

Relax, and have a great weekend!

In the original version of Bella ciao the guy just longs for being buried in a grave up on the mountain, shaded by flowers.
I wonder if these Belgian fools knew they were regurgitating a death song.

Latest from Doha: the first turkey voting for Christmas, and bunch people-formerly-known-as-protesters…
ps yes it’s a shameless plug…

Rest for the weary, and well deserved it is.

the games people play….”Pinata Planet Syndrome”
also in Spanish….”El sindrome del planeta Pinata”
when your opponent refuses reason….resort to ridiclule

http://drtimball.com/2012/humans-and-everything-they-do-are-natural/

What Did I Tell You!? says:
December 1, 2012 at 6:10 pm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Quite the rant. If you are going to rant on about all the holes in climate science, by all means do so, but please, get your own science right. What happens in a submarine is not remotely comparable to what happens in the atmosphere. One is a closed system with very limited scale, the other is an open system with a massive scale thousands of times that of a submarine.
Here is an excellent paper on exactly what does happen when IR passes through an artificial atmosphere with different amounts of CO2:
http://www.john-daly.com/artifact.htm
After you’ve read that, please read the .zip file at the top, which explains why the experiment might have some validity in a closed system like a submarine, but not at the scale of the atmosphere.
Bottom line: IR does get absorbed by CO2 and does elevate temperatures to some extent. What that extent is, and what the feedback effects are, is unknown for certain, but the data indicates very low.

gymnosperm says:
December 1, 2012 at 7:44 pm
For a single storm this is a pretty good amount.. More than I have seen in my life time. it may not be a record or it might.. not really sure.. But remembering the record snow falls in 1981/1982 and then watching as early and warm springs took off… i know what happens when warming occurs and given the burn off this year in a lot of areas its going to be a major mud bath and unstable soil conditions..

davidmhoffer says
BTW, I don’t think you meant to do this, but you just admitted that the science is NOT settled. Do you still get paid your regular troll fees when you screw up and go off message like that?
———
David I am willing to forego my troll fees and donate them to you. You will not notice a change in your bank balance.
As for the “science being settled” I am not into mischievous interpretations. The scientists did not shut up shop and stop their research after the IPCC report came out, so it’s reasonable to conclude they did not mean that phrase in the sense the climate skeptic land wants to interpret it.
Science is always predicated on the possibility that mistakes can be made. That means that normal science talk is full of if buts and maybes no matter how well the science is settled.
For example we can put a lander on mars to within a few meters using just Newtonian mechanics. But the science of gravity is not settled. So if someone objects to paying for space missions and starts complaining about the whole enterprise is worthless because the science of gravity is not settled, how are you going to explain “settled” to the listening public.
If you wanted to communicate honestly to the public you would say the science of gravity is settled where settled means what the public understands settled to mean, and not what scientists understand what settled means.
For climate science settled means we know enough to start planning and acting for the future. It does not mean we have to understand every little detail.

what did I tell you says
It’s crime and it’s criminality masking itself as ‘belief’. Political ‘belief.’
It’s crime.
———–
You seem to be way off on the science since CO2 is not a magic gas. I can’t begin to explain the Green house effect to you since it’s beyond your inclination to understand it. Nothing impedes understanding more than a desire not to understand.

davidmhoffer says:
December 1, 2012 at 7:58 pm
What Did I Tell You!? says:
December 1, 2012 at 6:10 pm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
“Quite the rant. If you are going to rant on about all the holes in climate science, by all means do so, but please, get your own science right. What happens in a submarine is not remotely comparable to what happens in the atmosphere. One is a closed system with very limited scale, the other is an open system with a massive scale thousands of times that of a submarine.”
I’ve watched you try to bark Magic Gas at anyone who’ll visit your Area51 region where reality is overcome by ‘this zip file’ for years. You haven’t transmitted, captured, and analyzed electromagnetic energy through the atmosphere, space, and industrial compounds for money, and never been fired. I have. You’re a debutante with a ‘magic gas zip file.’
LIke all debutantes who can’t explain their flawed fascination with fantasy physics, you can’t produce an instrument noting special handling of heat by a gas either.

Very interesting blog about polar bears. This site needs more traffic!
http://polarbearscience.com/2012/11/13/how-long-have-polar-bears-lived-in-hudson-bay/#more-638

Dear Moderators,
Found in my last comment:
[Reply: Odd. Text was there, but some odd HTML was hiding it. Removed some wrong looking bits and now it shows. Hope it’s right. -ModE ]
It’s not, first link still messed up, end part missing carriage return. I supplied a “looks like what was intended” block that presumably you could have pasted right in that section as a replacement, since on your end you have the “code” version of my comment.

LazyTeenager says:
December 1, 2012 at 10:39 pm
“You seem to be way off on the science since CO2 is not a magic gas. I can’t begin to explain the Green house effect to you since it’s beyond your inclination to understand it. Nothing impedes understanding more than a desire not to understand.”
Here’s the way this shakes out, stupid: YOU believe in a magical gas whose heat-handling characteristics are somehow different from every other class of gaseous matter, adjusted for spectral affinity.
You’ve been at this site years yourself claiming you see no problem with a scientific foundation based on ‘the world might end but I can’t show you my algorithms I might need them for something bigger in the future.’
Your the hick who thought it was possible for the infrared astronomy field to miss the steady rise of infrared in the atmosphere as the entire human scientific establishment from small boys in Niger to top-level government organizations from the first world poured every angle they could possibly contrive to find out if a GIANT HEATER
was TRAPPING the HEAT from the EARTH in.
You FORGOT the ENTIRE TIME that if those GASES which you claim to be fascinated with block light’s travel OUT,
they had to first block it’s travel IN: meaning that if there’s MORE of it, there is MORE of it, blocking light coming IN, in the FIRST place.
You think the INSULATED BLANKET SHIELDING YOU from the GIANT BALL of FIRE out in space,
is MAKING you HOT.
THAT is the level of non reality-based thinking MAGIC GAS brings it’s ADHERENTS.
You’re the class thinker which sees NO PROBLEM with the RESEARCH of a FIELD which TO A MAN couldn’t tell that a SCRAWL making HOCKEY sticks from CALIBRATION DATA
wasn’t real math.
You’re the class thinker which sees NO PROBLEM with the RESEARCH of a FIELD which TO A MAN couldn’t tell that a TREE
can’t be turned into a MAGIC TREEMOMITUR because of that ‘heat, light, oxygen-roots/carbon dioxide-canopy, physical damage-canopy/physical damage-roots,
13-15 SEPARATE ELEMENTS in PROPORTION thing.
You’re the class thinker which sees NO PROBLEM with the RESEARCH of a FIELD which TO A MAN couldn’t tell that a WHOLE SET of INFRARED FREQUENCIES were NOT GROWING in the ATMOSPHERE while SIMULTANEOUSLY CLAIMING that both the AMOUNT GIVEN OFF by EARTH,
and, the AMOUNT RETAINED by said atmosphere WERE growing.
To a MAN not ONE of them thought to simply review the infrared astronomy records of students and organizations through the years through various filters, on various instruments
and find out that OH! well WHAT do you KNOW it’s NOT only NOT GROWING there’s LESS earth-shine frequency atmospheric infrared.
After looking for TWENTY YEARS, infrared sensors out on the plains of AGW Ground Central the Midwest USA at night find LESS atmospheric infrared, coming down striking their sensor arrays.
But you’re here to inform us that magic hockey stick math and magic bore holes and magic gas are very much the cutting edge of science, and so you don’t have to listen to the side that
DISCOVERED the HOCKEY stick scrawls are TRASH
DISCOVERED the atmospheric infrared is DECLINING not RISING
DISCOVERED the magic gas isn’t really magic when Tony Watts did ALGOR’s ‘let’s add some gas to the bottle’ experiment, on the internet.
You’re a hick. You’ve got the scientific literacy of your peers. The MAGIC GAS crowd.

What Did I Tell You!? says:
December 1, 2012 at 11:57 pm
Hoffman you’ve already started trying to claim light handling by a gas is dependent on whether it’s in a submarine’s experimental greenhouse, or a planet.
If you keep barking that Magic Gas at me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hmmmmm…. ya know, the last time I got suckered into a debate about this it turned out to be Doug Cotton and his Slayer garbage. Doug can’t get my name right either, he calls me Hoffman all the time…..hmmmm…. Yaps about Magic Gas….hmmmm…. He also says things like:
“You haven’t transmitted, captured, and analyzed electromagnetic energy through the atmosphere, space, and industrial compounds for money, and never been fired. I have.”
Well Doug (or whichever Slayer acolyte you happen to be), perhaps if you’d done your job properly, you wouldn’t have been fired.
MODS ~ SLAYER ALERT
[Reply: No not Doug Cotton this time – mod]

I’m curious about something… As we know, the earth is very hot in its interior. Anywhere from Al Gore’s “millions of degrees” to, well, at least hot enough to melt iron and form [Dr. Evil voice] li-quid MAG-ma. As I recall from my physics classes, the only means of transferring heat are via conduction, radiation, or convection. As a result, all of that heat has to pass through the crust — us — on its way out; however, since we are not at those temperatures the rate of heat transfer is slow enough to not cook us up here.
Now, for what I’m curious about. Obviously that’s a lot of heat in there. My degree is in geology, so I’m also very aware of the slowness of the processes involved (in general — once that sloooowly rising magma intrusion makes it to the surface, things happen very quickly indeed). But what conditions would be required for enough more of that heat to be transferred to us and increase the “global average temperature”?
Convection requires hotter (less dense) parts of the material to rise, cool, then sink again. This does not necessarily require that the temperatures are even throughout each plume. Is there any possibility that a particularly hot batch could come along and warm the upper regions enough to make a measurable difference? Has anyone been checking the temps in deep mines around the world to see if there’s any noticeable rise in temperature?
Like I said, I’m just curious and floating my thoughts out there. I just can’t recall geothermal heat fluctuations ever being considered as a factor in global temps.

Howdy folks.Not sure if you’re allinterested but a mainstream Scottish paper has run the 28gate story – http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/opinion/comment/comment-bbc-bias-more-worrying-than-savile-scandal-1-2659327

What Did I Tell You!? says: “DISCOVERED the atmospheric infrared is DECLINING not RISING”
Is that right? Very interesting.
Note on submarines: I was once, recently, told by an AGW GHE alarmist advocate that the GHE is the same thing as cavitation on a submarine propeller! lol
I could ask for someone to explain that to me…but, I’d also like to avoid the brain damage in reading the answer.

So name one climate scientist who has put the AGW position but has earned the respect of skeptic land. I can’t think if any.
–LazyTeenager
Off the top of my head, I can name four: Cliff Mass, Judith Curry, Grant Petty and Spencer Weart. These folks believe the CO2 concentration:global warming correlation, but are sane. They are worthy of respect.

The ethanol program is simply an agricultural subsidy and was pushed by the agricultural lobby, which does not give a hoot about any issue other than boosting prices of grain. This program has suceeded marvelously and grain prices rocketed upward. The grain farmers are prospering like never before. Methanol, the alternative to ethanol, can be produced more cheaply than ethanol. You now pay the grain subsidies at the gas pump. CO2, pollution, environment, etc., have nothing to do with the issue except as fodder for the CAGW dupes.

“I stood up and asked Valerie Jarrett to have the president speak about the reality of climate change,” the activist told the Huffington Post. “This nation is facing a fundamental threat to its existence

That’s too funny. Susan Rice, major part of the fundamental threat to the existence of her host nation, is heavily invested. In TransCanada.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/2000536982001/bias-bash-susan-rice-investments/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TransCanada_Corp.

It is getting hot in Bogota – ‘Bogotá podría ser 4 grados más caliente’:
http://www.eltiempo.com/colombia/bogota/bogot-podra-ser-4-grados-ms-caliente_12416004-4
Yes, folks, Bogota, at some 2,600 meters is beginning to feel the heat. In fact, by 2050, about 4 C more, according to the ‘experts’.
AGW is the gift that keeps on giving.

Michael Moon says:
December 2, 2012 at 10:17 am
Click on Joseph Postma’s name. Read his stuff.

mpainter says:
The ethanol program is simply an agricultural subsidy and was pushed by the agricultural lobby, which does not give a hoot about any issue other than boosting prices of grain. This program has suceeded marvelously and grain prices rocketed upward. The grain farmers are prospering like never before. Methanol, the alternative to ethanol, can be produced more cheaply than ethanol. You now pay the grain subsidies at the gas pump. CO2, pollution, environment, etc., have nothing to do with the issue except as fodder for the CAGW dupes.
When it comes producing ethanol using Saccharomyces cerevisiae all that is required is glucose. If would be perfectly possible to use something inedible by either humans or domestic animals as a source of glucose.

Just start from the premise that when energy is absorbed in a molecule the energy is internalised. Energy can only be transformed. Heat is a result of one form of that transformation.

Hi guys here is the latest data for ice sheet melting from reconciled multi-satelite measurements.
You could try your wind theory out on this one to see if it can explain all this melting.
Or maybe the ice age is just around the corner so burn more carbon to make it go away theory. Even though we dont believe in the green house gas, or that people can’t burn enough stuff to affect CO2 concentrations.
http://imbie.org/data-downloads/

Michael Moon,
You need to study up on the 2nd Law. It is based on statistics.

MikeB;
Thinks ….am I wasting my time here?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I heard a rumour that the first person to come up with an explanation that convinces Myrrh, Greg House, and Michael Moon wins a Nobel Prize and a letter of thanks from Anthony and all the mods. The value of the Nobel Prize is rather tainted these days, but I really want that letter! Talk about valuable memorabilia!
Michael Moon;
Your binary star I presume is a 5000 degree star and a 6000 degree star when they are apart, and you want to understand what happens when you push them close to each other? If so, yes, the facing surfaces of the stars would both become warmer. However, the process is subject to the law of diminishing returns. If you were to break it down into increments, yes, each face of the star would get warmer, and so would be radiating at a higher temperature, warming the opposing face of the other star even more. BUT….each incremental increase would be smaller than the one before and after some number of increments the change would become zero. This would then be a new equilibrium temperature for the facing portion of each star. This is why it doesn’t run off to infinity.
If you’ve ever built a log fire, you can see the exact same process happening. If you try and light a log on fire, even a very dry one, even with lots of tinder, it doesn’t burn well. But arrange several logs in a “teepee” shape, put the tinder in the middle, and the logs will burn very well. If you pay attention, you’ll notice that the outside of the logs are barely burning at all, even with a big fire. But “inside” where the logs are facing one another, the fire is hottest and burns most vigorously. The log faces heat each other up to a temperature that supports a roaring flame that could not be reached any other way. You can double prove this to yourself by building a roaring fire in this manner, and the separating the logs and spreading them out. In just a minute or so, the roaring fire will be gone and all you will have is smoldering logs.
Your log fire doesn’t run off to infinity when you build it in a teepee, but it gets and awful lot hotter than it would otherwise. The starts would, on their facing surfaces, also be hotter, but would not run off to infinity.
The formula for Stefan-Boltzmann Law by the way is P=5.67*10^-8*T^4 with T being in degrees K. Since P varies with T to the fourth power, every increase in T requires an ever larger increase in P. For example:
400K requires +14.6 w/m2 to get to 401K
500K requires +28.4 w/m2 to get to 501K
600K requires +49.1 w/m2 to get to 601K
See what’s happening? The hotter something gets, the more w/m2 are required to generate just one more degree of temperature change. And that sir, is why there is no runaway process and no perpetual motion.

What Did I Tell You!? says:
December 2, 2012 at 6:05 pm
“Yes it is true. I never remember who did the test, it lasted 14 years, infrared detectors were lain out in fields in the American Midwest, ground zero for mannmade global warming.
The test ended I believe in 2010. The fourteen year span showed LESS infrared radiation pinging back out of the atmosphere than when the test started. The test results were released in April of 2010 or 11.”
Remember once the initial levels in the night-time atmosphere are known, THEY are KNOWN forEVER so ANY TIME – that ANY ONE
goes out and lays out detector arrays, THE SPAN of THE TESTING OVERALL, covers ALL TIME-FRAMES when ACCURATE LEVELS were first established. Individual tests aren’t nulled simply because the initial testers ended theirs. Accurate levels are, whenever attained, a check on the overall situation, and widely diverse testing ability – there are universities all over this world whose students own radiation detectors of varying quality – not to mention the deployed professional-grade national and international, meteorological groups’ equipment –
once those levels’ accuracy is no longer disputed, each and every additional time some student is shown how they work, is in fact, another check – of course they don’t get printed because they ARE NOT CONTRARY to the WELL-KNOWN FACT that ATMOSPHERIC INFRARED LEVELS, are WHAT they ARE.
Just sayin there, fellow who remarked on the infrared tests showing REDUCING atmospheric infrared.
I don’t think the group who did the test in the midwest that lasted fourteen years, that was released April of last year, or year before last, were well funded, but oddly enough there wasn’t ever: not EVER – any rebuff to the claim of the people who did the test.
There’s an additional element to this very conversation. YOU DON’T NEED A RADIATION DETECTOR to CHECK the ATMOSPHERE for MORE INFRARED RADIATION. INFRARED ASTRONOMY has been able to CHECK ON ATMOSPHERIC INFRARED, since… I really don’t know the number of CENTURIES, but earthshine infrared can be checked by putting colored filters over cameras that photograph through telescopes.
Have you heard a single word with the HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars’ INFRARED EQUIPMENT, or the WELL established INFRARED ASTRONOMY FIELD, a single syllable about the ‘atmospheric infrared in the earthshine spectrum gradually rising, as postulated by Magic Gassers’ ….?
No
you
have
not.
Because there IS no rising atmospheric infrared. The levels of atmospheric HEAT in the EARTHSHINE SPECTRA have FALLEN.
This is WELL KNOWN to ALL who are more intimately acquainted with the Magic Gas religion.

“YaYUh but … YEW don’ GODDA PUD’it LAIK THAYuT!!!”
THAT is the Magic Gas religion’s refrain when you remind them that THEIR WHOLE FIELD INSISTS
the ENTIRE WORLD FORGET
that THOSE EARTHSHINE FREQ-RELEVANT GASES
B L O C K
far, more light in relevant spectra coming in
but that they don’t block it all, which is why you can look at the sun from earth with an earthshine frequency filter and see a highly energetic light source.
The earthshine spectra relevant gases
CAN’T BLOCK it ALL.
They block SOME incoming relevant frequency radiation. But since there’s only a certain amount they can’t block it all.
But if you put MORE INFRARED BLOCKING GAS IN THE SKY guess, WHAT:
more gets blocked before it can warm the earth.
This, Magic Gassers, is called ‘cooling.’
Now you folks watch Magic Gassers come here and say they don’t think putting a light blocking screen of molecule sized particles between an object and the one that it irradiates
is cooling.

D Böehm says:
December 2, 2012 at 8:54 pm
Michael Moon,
“Aside from your misunderstanding of the 2nd Law, you presume that David Hoffer has not ‘passed the finals’. You are a noob who needs some basic education.
It is you who needs to get up to speed. David Hoffer is very knowledgeable on the subject of climatology”
Which is why he’s in here with a story about magic gas that blocks infrared radiation coming in acting as a refractive-hence ultimately reflective screen arrayed in space just above the surface of the earth
but in doing this first, COOLING the object it is blocking radiation from ever reaching,
it’s heating the earth and I’ll quote ‘it’s probably not much though.’
Yeah he’s right about that. It’s not much. It’s not happening at all.
His stories of 2nd law magic are as ill advised as the rest of his stretched Magic Physiks
“at thuh levul yew awl caint unnerstayund caws yew jes’ don’ wawnuh buhLEEvE.”

Yeah. The magic warming sunlight reflector in the sky. Thairs thangs yew don’ noe abowt what’s HOT & COLD, BOY; yEW ain’ NOE CLImuHTaHLuHjist!”
Indeed.
Can you imagine someone opening an umbrella to block sunlight in the Mohave Desert to see that instead of a standard black umbrella, the fabric between the ribs had been replaced with 50% light blocking standard agriculture shade fabric,
and as you stood there watching them examine that umbrella, hearing them say to you in ALL SERIOUSNESS, that ‘This here umbrella shore is makin me hot. If there was any more light reflecting fabric up there I think it would get THAT MUCH HOTTER.’
And then, asking them, ‘Why?’ having them reply to you that “Wayle, thair’s sum sunlight gittn thru thim holes. And wat gits thru thim holes, hits me an ruhflecks awff. Then it hits that ‘tair fabric & turns arownd and comes down and makes me hotter.”
Then you, in awe of this blinding intellectual light, reply to him ‘So, if you had some 90% sunlight blocking fabric what would happen?”
Says the Magic Gais Zombee to you with a STRAIGHT FACE mind you, “Wayle, yuh see, if’n we put up some 90 per cent then whatever got through thair would be reflected back to me once it reflected off of me, 90 percent: so I wud jus git hotter.”
You reply one last time to this insaniac who’s obviously living in a land called “Climate Mental Illness”
“But the 90% blocking fabric, BLOCKS more than it reflects back TO you because what is being reflected back to you is REDUCED as you add more light blocking fabric.”
His reply to YOU is, ‘YEW AIN’ NO CLIMuHTAHLuHjiST! YEW HAYTE YUR CHILDRIN! yEW don’t NOE nuthin bowt HOT & COLD, i ROTE uh PAPur!”
This hick looking you straight in your eye.
You know what that’s called?
‘Magic
Gas
Zombie.’

davidmhoffer says:
December 2, 2012 at 9:26 pm
Odder still Mr Moon, when I discuss physics with engineers and physicists designing things like communication satellites, space arms, shuttle instrumentation, anti-missiles, command and control systems for naval destroyers and so on, I’ve always been commended on my knowledge and problem solving skills. It is only when I start talking to you that I become an idiot.
———————————————–
That’s because you don’t tell them you believe in Magic Gas and why you believe in it.
No electronic engineer ever suffered to listen to your blather about Magic Gas and a Magic Gas Zip File that makes a light blocking reflective gas shade, a heater.
Go tell one of the electronic engineers where you work that you have an electronic engineer here, who said you, and your magic gas story are full of baloney, and you have that electronic engineer come here and I’ll compare HIS grasp of plus and minus with the one that came with MY degree in electronic engineering.
And when HE tells ME that HE – like YOU
believes that a refractive shade, arrayed around an object being irradiated, creates a condition called ‘the greenhouse effect’ wherein the object being irradiated is HOTTER because OF the refractive shade,
I’m going to tell HIM what I already told YOU:
THAT is illucid Magic Gas Zombie Fever. AND HE’S NO ELECTRONIC DESIGN ENGINEER.
NEITHER are YOU.
Or you’d KNOW
a REFRACTIVE SHADE
arrayed around an object being irradiated
CAN NOT CREATE a CONDITION of MORE ENERGY at the surface of the object it is SHADING than if it were not there.

richardscourtney;
Michael Moon at least tried to have a rational conversation, this What Did I Tell You! character can muster up nothing but a moronic hill billy accent and some analogies that prove the accent may be warranted.
mods ~ the latter is pure slay*r cr@p. I thought there was a new policy about this total sh*t?

Vince Causey;
David, are you really expecting this poster to be open to persuasion and argument? The mantra like repetitions and the disregarding of any of the counter points being made, suggest the poster is a bot, not a human
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ya know, given all the work I did in the past on AI, you’d think I would clue in to the signs. Never even considered it, but in retrospect, yeah, could be a bot. A really poorly written one though. So… in addition to not attributing to malice what can be attributed to stupidity, we must now also never attribute to stupidity what can be attributed to a poorly written bot?
Stop the world, I’d like to get off…
.
[Reply: Here are a couple of examples of the mindless spam posts that mods have to weed out: “I orate you experience remarked several particularly stimulating alludes, minds for the courier.”
And:
“I had been tired about what sort of content may sense, I had been fifty percent ready for that tough nylon material that feels truly low cost and could be located at your neighborhood costume retailer however this issue had been nowhere in close proximity to this! That sensed such as the very same materials they use about people top quality hairpieces pertaining to most cancers individuals ( I might realize because my mom experienced point Zero cancers of the breast and also had chemo), so she had two. We compared the information and also good quality and they also were made products gave the look of the same. There was clearly actually an elastic music group you could adjust pertaining to fitted. Total great quality now my Natsu dress-up costume is finished! After I created it to fit the particular spiked up Natsu search it absolutely was just natural amazing! The back does need a bit of cutting down on because it is too much time but that’s a simple meal. Really like this kind of wig!”
Those are verbatim. It used to be that spambots comprised only a few posts. Now, spam comments like that outnumber legitimate comments!
Sorry, I just had to get that off my chest. — mod.]

Michael Moon;
Here is another proof: park your car right in front of your wife’s car, facing each other, and turn on the headlights, beaming right into each other. Do they get brighter? NO?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Actually they do, which you would know if you’d ever done any actual work with these sorts of things. Just because you can’t detect the change with your naked eye doesn’t mean that it isn’t happening.
As for the stars Mr Snark, YOU are the one that proposed a twin star and I answered your question in terms of two stars too far apart to matter and then close enough together that they would. Then you bloviated about how the stars would be spinning, which made you look both disingenuous as well as foolish. Now you babble on something about the speed of pulsars which has nothing to do with the thought experiment YOU proposed. Every time I answer your question you try and throw in some new detail that doesn’t even change the answer. Can’t deal with facts and logic so you resort to misdirection, but you are so bad at it that you just wind up looking like a stuttering fool.
Stefan-Boltzmann Law says that every body radiates energy. Is SB Law wrong? If you can prove that, I will personally nominate you for a Nobel Prize. You’ve got a “cold” object radiating according to SB Law. You place a warm object next to it. The cold object radiates according to SB Law the EXACT same amount it did before. If you dispute that, you ain’t no mechanical engineer and if you are, your degree should be revoked. Where do you suppose the photons go? Do they get swallowed by a black hole? Turn left before they get to the warm object? Stop in between and have a party until the warm object goes away?
As for your insanely stupid example of an ice cube in coffee, is there some part of NET heat transfer that you don’t understand? Is there some part of “a cold body compared to nothing at all” that you fail to grasp? Or are you just being deliberately obtuse in order to p*ss me off?
Well congrats, you’ve p*ssed me off. Given the options of malice, stupidity, or being a bot, I no longer give a sh*t as to which one you are. I’ve honestly tried to explain the issues and you have been a total xxxxing jerk.
SET/MICHAELMOON=IGNORE

I am still waiting for a response from Mr. Hoffer.

You mean this comment?
David Ball says:
December 2, 2012 at 6:51 pm
davidmhoffer says:
December 2, 2012 at 10:58 am
“The stuff that Mosher gets wrong and the stuff that the slayers get wrong is completely different stuff.”
Elaborate to enlighten, please
>>>>>>>>>>>
The sl*yers are of the opinion that back radiation doesn’t exist at all, which is pure nonsense. The Earth is much warmer than the moon though both get the same insolation, and Mercury gets far more insolation than Venus, but is no where near as hot as Venus. We don’t need to know exactly what the mechanisms are to conclude that in the case of both Earth and Venus, the presence of the atmosphere keeps the planetary surface warmer than it otherwise would have been.
Mosher’s contention is that we know exactly how that mechanism works, and gives as examples things like radar which we’ve known precisely the behaviour of as it passes through the atmosphere from point A to point B. I have two problems with this. The first is that radar passes through the atmosphere pretty much without interacting with it, which is precisely what makes it useful and easy to measure accurately. LW is the exact opposite, it can’t pass through much of the atmosphere at all without interacting with it. The second problem I have relates to the first. With radar, we are most interested in the part of the signal that doesn’t get lost, and we can measure that directly. With LW we are interested in the part of the signal that DOES get lost, and we can only measure it INDIRECTLY.

“””””…..Michael Moon says:
December 4, 2012 at 8:26 am
Courtney,
Microwave ovens work by exciting molecules with a dipole moment.
>>>>> This is not heat transfer,<<<>>> actually electric in nature.<<<>>>> Heat transfer has three modes, conductive, convective, and radiative. In every case the heat transfer is from hot to cold. <<<>>>>This discussion has become tedious.<<<< And there Michael, you have made another true statement.

What Did I Tell You!? says:
December 2, 2012 at 6:05 pm
“Joseph E Postma says:
December 2, 2012 at 8:00 am
What Did I Tell You!? says: “DISCOVERED the atmospheric infrared is DECLINING not RISING”
Is that right? Very interesting.
————————————
Yes it is true. I never remember who did the test, it lasted 14 years, infrared detectors were lain out in fields in the American Midwest, ground zero for mannmade global warming.”
Maybe he refers to this one
Measurements of Long wave infrared backradiation show a decline
LWIR backradiation measurement, it fell over 12 years in the Great Plains
http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com/2011/04/another-blow-to-warmist-theory.html

Joseph E Postma;
I’ll continue with applying *actual* heat flow mathematics to reality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In my reality, the laws of thermodynamics and the stefan-boltzmann law co-exist and are applicable in all cases. In your reality, some laws are temporarily suspended in some special cases.

davidmhoffer says:
December 4, 2012 at 8:53 am
“No, I’ll not debate this further with you, been there, done that. Instead I will do something more useful with my time like teach a pig to sing.”
——————————————————–
What you are going to do,
is pose on the internet:
a smug, clueless idiot who doesn’t realize the unrecoverable position of having told the readers
of an international forum on global atmospheric gas/energy dyanamics,
you think the sun emits blue (shortwave) light without any significant infrared component,
and
for that reason, it’s impossible for atmospheric gases in infrared-resonant spectrum to block any. That should humiliate me to have you point that out, you opined.
To win an argument, you said that.
Then having splayed yourself exposed as an utter idiot who doesn’t even know what color the sun emits,
you tried to take an arrogant wannabe’s mocking victory dance: “Are you now done demonstrating your complete and total grasp of the matters at hand?”
You see now that I wasn’t
but that you were,
*because you don’t have a “grasp of the matters at hand.”
This discussion is about the sun: the matter at hand is the star called Sol. The sun.
The star you’re talking about is blue.*
You flatly stated: the sun is Blue.
End of story. And that I ought to be embarrassed, I didn’t know it like you do.
The sun doesn’t put out infrared light,
and the light it does put out is short wavelength.
Blue spectrum light.
The sun is Blue.
Meanwhile back in reality-based physics having to do with the matters at hand,
the truth is, the sun is yellow.
And the truth is, the sun’s radiation is nearly half infrared.
And the truth is, the sun’s massive 40% infrared radiation energy, is mostly blocked by something in the atmosphere.
And the truth is, it’s the infrared-resonant gases.
And the truth is, when energy is blocked by sulfate aerosols, or infrared-resonant gas aerosols (clouds) or infrared resonant, hence infrared-opaque gas molecules themselves,
and never gets to the surface
that’s called COOLING.
And the truth is, putting more infrared-resonant gas into the atmosphere, of any of the several separate species, would contribute to blocking more infrared light trying to get in.
And the truth is that’s called MORE cooling when you do that.
And the truth is, you don’t have credibility to shine shoes at least with me, because
the truth is,
I’m an electronic engineer whose field is the transmission, capture and analysis of electromagnetic energy through the atmosphere, space, and industrial compounds,
and you think the sun over your head is blue.