Here’s the QOTW, a comment left on a YouTube video:
Very well done. Except, unfortunately, history will show that climate denialists are worse than nazis.
What prompted that? This:
I suppose it was only a matter of time before the Hitler video was used on me. It can be used to parody just about anything. The best part is that it provides a window into the mindset of the creator, Jenkin Brown, plus the people that are doing the piling on in comments like the one above.
Gosh. All this denigration because I have an opinion and dare to write about it with citations. Yes, surely that’s just as bad (or worse as the commenter says) as putting millions of innocent people in gas chambers or shooting them in mass trenches. The comparison made by the commenter is so absurd that it overshadows the satire. It’s laughable.
I suppose we can thank Ellen Goodman for popularizing this connection:
I would like to say we’re at a point where global warming is impossible to deny. Let’s just say that global warming deniers are now on a par with Holocaust deniers, though one denies the past and the other denies the present and future. – Ellen Goodman, Boston Globe, February 9, 2007 “No change in political climate”
Obviously, since I posted it here, I don’t mind the satirical video, because it still isn’t as bad as the time I was labeled as having sex with farm animals (scroll down to bottom) for asking for a factual correction to an article.
I’ve been insulted by professionals, this is just an amateur effort. 😉
NOTE TO COMMENTERS/MODERATORS: Keep it clean in comments. I thought about not having comments at all, but I’m sure many readers would have something insightful to add. If you don’t, don’t comment. Moderators, you have carte blache to bit bucket any hateful comments. – Anthony
These people must really, really, really hate the truth. Oh well…
Unfortunately Anthony, the real test for CAGW will be time. But for what it is worth, crow we will when reality and record will prove you right. And for what it is worth the above video will be icing on the cake.
“Very well done. Except, unfortunately, history will show that climate denialists are worse than nazis.”
Well, obviously that guy believes that CO2 can turn the planet into a baking oven, and who could blame him, as a NASA scientist says so. In my opinion, Hansen is to blame for hate like that; and the NASA bosses that cover him.
And all of this for 1.2 billion USD a year that NASA gets in global warming funding.
http://notrickszone.com/2012/04/12/nasa-abdalatis-response-to-50-esteemed-professionals-is-managerial-negligence-an-embarrassment/#comment-92515
http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/microsites/ostp/FY12-climate-fs.pdf
Exactly the kind of stuff the idealogues resort to when they cannot construct a rational argument.
Who ist dis Godwin, and vye does he say ve have lost ze argument?
Wow, they really sink to new lows with every passing week. On the bright and cheery side, they’re obviously reading WUWT on a daily basis. 🙂
” … but I’m sure many readers would have something insightful to add.”
Yes, but it is a low yield process. You have to dig the insightful ones out of those that are inflammatory, off subject, wrong, or just plain stupid. Still this outlet may prevent the occasional loon from going altogether postal.
Actually, I don’t even find the YouTube parody funny, because it denies the very real horrow of the WW2.
As to the Arctic, one or even two swallows do not a summer make. And even if it were ice free for a time in some distant summer, would it really matter? It is only the models that seem to point to it as a critical item for the warming thesis. There seems to be a lot more going on than just surface warming. In any event, what has always bothered me is the expensive non solutions, a question that remains whether or not we are facing a non problem.
Finally, from a gloomy and cold South of England, what about the idea of free speech? And being able to put a point of view without vicious personal attacks? Methinks they protest too much!
Keep up the work, there is now a Global Warming Industry that threatens our way of life more than the catastrophe they spin, IMHO.
We are worse than Nazis…ok then…what about the Daleks? How do we compare with them?
For a start, I can go around holding a plunger! And I do look far scarier than a salt-and-pepper shaker!
REPLY: LOL! For those that don’t know, here’s a Dalek from Doctor Who:
– Anthony
The sea ice in the Arctic is the last link in the chain of climate causation because it takes so long (ten years or more) for events in the tropic to circulate to the Arctic ocean.
It is the last feature of climate change that AGW supporters can point to in support of their theories.
Thus they are throwing everything they have into the pot at this moment when the effects of the late 20th century period of high solar activity are still affecting the Arctic even though the downward trend is becoming apparent elsewhere.
Keep calm and stay cool in the face of the onslaught.
If the sun stays quiet then cloudiness will remain high, energy into the oceans will continue to decline and in due course Arctic sea ice will recover.
It should soon be clear whether AGW proponents are right or wrong and if Arctic ice fails to recover despite a negative AMO in a few years and a negative PDO in conjunction with a quiet sun then I for one would be prepared to reconsider.
It comes with fame and power – being ridiculed, so I would take it as a compliment, although a sick one.
It also shows the standard of the “consensus” and the level of their crowd…
Really? Yet another Hitler video? Really?! Talk about an Internet meme that has been run out of breath. I have to say though, I’ve been called far worse by far better. (Although the “blog scientists” bit was worth a chuckle.)
3:05 “In don’t think we can blame it on the wind again”
I don’t see why not, no one has been able to disprove the major influence of Wind and Atmospheric Oscillations on Sea Ice cover, as I documented here:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/16/the-economist-provides-readers-with-erroneous-information-about-arctic-sea-ice/
Wow… Don’t know what else to say. This is about as disgusting as the ‘No Pressure’ video. They probably think Iran is a peaceful, benign country, too.
Just a lurker here, Anthony.
But I am terribly sorry to see the quality of discourse plummet to such a low level. Whether you find it hurtful, or not, it is decidely undeserved.
I think we need to be careful here, and say that we deny that there is proof that man is causing the climate to change in a catastrophic way. We deny that there is any proof that CO2 will cause a tipping point. We deny that CO2 is a pollutant. Maybe the globe is/was warming, maybe it is cooling, maybe it is going to cool, maybe it is going to warm…
It’s not science, it’s politics. It always has been.
We are worse than Nazis?…ok then…how do we compare with the Osmonds?
Ha! Not so bad now, are we?
That is great! Boy, I wish I had the spare time Jenkin Brown has. He must have spent a lot of time hanging out around here to do such a good job with comments about Steven Goddard.
Hey, turn this into a positive – this is a great example of how negative PR can be great PR. RealClimate, eat your heart out, you won’t be getting any views out of this one!
I haven’t been following the copyright issues with these parodies – did the movie studio finally realize they can’t block parodies or are they going to shut this down next week?
Daleks have a lot in common with AGW Alarmists….EXAGGERATE…EXAGGERATE…EXAGGERATE!!!!
I have never met one AGW warmist that understands basic science, or understands the evidence. The argument generally comes down to the fact that I am not a climate scientist so my opinion is wrong… and their opinion is right, because they do not understand the complexity so they go with climate scientists that tell them there is a consensus… When I tell them they admit not having their own opinion, but the opinion of that some others have, even though they admit having no understanding of climate science, they get angry and call me names.., such as a flat earther. They are getting frustrated that they have such a strong opinion of things they feel they can not possibly understand and it makes them feel dumb. They are in fact like people who believe in witches. The logic is that witches must be hanged. If they live, they are a witch and must be killed. If they die, they were innocent.
a hitler parody!
Anthony, YOUV’E ARRIVED
Dalek 1 : EX TER MIN ATE, EX TER MIN ATE ALL DENIERS
Dalek 2: TRA VES TY, TRA VES TY, TRA VES TY!!!!
It is a sad day in American when these people have to stoop so low because not everyone accepts, or believes, their propaganda about man made Global Warming. The far left is willing to do just about anything except believe the real truth concerning this issue. One would almost tend to believe that we really haven’t come all that far since the days of Galileo. This video exposes the real depth of their fear and anger for being rejected.
Why are the alarmists all such potty-mouths?
“Hard pounding this, gentlemen; let’s see who will pound longest.”
Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington At the Battle of Waterloo (18 June 1815), as quoted by Sir Walter Scott, in Paul’s Letters to His Kinsfolk (1815).
He also wrote (to a whore)
“Publish and be damned.”
Or, as his opponent said
“Courage mes braves”
They have to call us names — the facts are on our side.
It’s funny as hell, but that’s done to lower the BS filters. If you laugh, then your brain begins to take in subsequent BS more freely, because we tend to trust people who make us feel good. And we wouldn’t want to be laughed AT. They used exactly the same trick in Borat. The movie was really funny, but that disarmed the audience who could not process the idea that being homosexual today is not equivalent to being a Jew in Nazi Germany or in Russia under the Tsars.
Personally, I take such attacks as a badge of honor. Especially when I get angry responses after taking principled positions it means I’m doing my job. In the political world, far too few are willing to be attacked and ridiculed. It’s more important to do the job, and get results. Then you have a record to stand on. For example: Reagan’s second term election. All the previous ridicule didn’t stop people from voting for him. Everyone knew the economy and national security were better than during the Carter years.
The ice will do whatever it will do, and we won’t die. The Climate Masters are desperately trying to prevent people from realizing their snakeoil cure is much worse than the supposed climate disease.
Stephen Wilde,
Polar ice is a natural repeating cycle. I will be willing to reconsider if global temperatures break out decisively above their long term parameters. But until/unless that happens, the default position is the null hypothesis.
And looking at recent global temperatures, that seems extremely unlikely.
A video clip from the community who loves exploding children … Look who’s talking …
A couple of years ago, the AGW-believers here in Sweden recommend the realists (I don’t use the term “denier” as it is a religious one …) to use psychotherapy as help against “bad thoughts”. I wonder who would benifit better …?
Comparing reality with one of the existing leftisms … Seems desperate …
Josh and Anthony,
As a pointed cartoon suggestion to make the point that the “enlightened” (sarcasm, yes) are dangerously close to fascism in their rhetoric and thinking, perhaps a cartoon would be in order reminding people a bit about the history they are referencing:
Credit where credit is due, this idea comes from looking at cracked.com where they have “12 Old War Photographs You Won’t Believe Aren’t Photoshopped.” http://www.cracked.com/article_19984_12-old-war-photographs-you-wont-believe-arent-photoshopped.html
#11 – Sea of POWs (with picture from wikipedia)
Perhaps Josh can create a three-panel cartoon showing: 1) the line of people waiting to be separated into the “believers” and the non-believers (readers of wattsupwiththat.com) with a panel of “judges” perhaps consisting of Mann, Franziska Hollender, and Mark Serreze, 2) the millions of non-believers lined up in the fields with “scientist/advocate” guards holding the guns and guarding the masses (in the open prison) with peace signs on their chests or EPA emblazoned on their armbands…, and then the third panel showing the actual open camps photo from c.a. 1942.
Maybe it would be too over-the-top…but it seems that this might illustrate what is wrong with the rhetoric. Some might mistake it for using the same rhetoric against the alarmists, but the effect might still make the point…
Just a thought after reading this post and the previous one about Franziska Hollender’s seminar…
Democracy requires vigilance.
Isn’t it amazing the projection going on here. In all of the many years I have followed this web site not once has there ever seen from you an over the top explosion. That cannot be said from many others in the AGW brigade. This is a true and clear example of projection, almost textbook. What is very sad is that this is so far out of the ballpark, that they cannot even see the planet it resides on no less the lights. The real problem for them is that you are effective in your arguments , they are supported by data, and the average person can comprehend them. In a few words you seek the truth, speak the truth, and are good at it. I have serious concerns when science becomes an dogmatic religion, and not the dynamic quest to define and know the truth. If this passes for science, what unquestionable pseudo science cause will be next? Will phrenology make a comeback?
The notion that people who question how catastrophic mmgw may be are worse than people who tortured and murdered for fun is simply sick. There are some real fascist minds amongst those who believe.
Severian says:
September 2, 2012 at 11:59 am
Daleks have a lot in common with AGW Alarmists….EXAGGERATE…EXAGGERATE…EXAGGERATE!!!!
======================================================================
I think they think more like the Borg. “Resistence is futile”.
(If you followed StarTrek, you know how true that turned out to be.)
I have a question rather than a comment. I was under the impression that sea ice extent and area were monitored by satellite and “all of recorded history” only goes back to 1979. And the primary satellite doing that has died. So another source has been spliced in. Therefore, year-o-year correlation is not expected.
Where in that chain of assumptions am I wrong?
There has been such a global ‘push’ by alarmists with scare stories appearing everywhere in recent weeks that I get the sense they know they are losing credibility left right and centre and are becoming desperate. I wonder if this video is aimed at cheering up and invigorating the warmist religion believers rather than reaching the public – they must need it right now.
I’m waiting to see what temperatures are like in the UK in coming months – it’s been one of the coldest summers I can remember and Autumn (Fall) has already arrived a few weeks early with swallows departing early for africa last week.
There is a sickly smell of corruption that goes by the name of ‘climate change’ wafting around the globe and although we may all have to gag on it for a while longer it will eventually pass, blown away by the fresh air of truth that sceptics strive for and achieve.
Anthony – you must be hitting some nerves for them to come up with this rather extreme (but funny nonetheless) ad hom – well done!
Now you’ve publicised it on WUWT the number of viewings will reach a level beyond Jenkin Brown’s wildest dreams. I notice that this is the only video he or she has uploaded to YouTube, having only joined on 29th August. Perhaps you should run a competition for the best suggestion who he/she really is. Their profile says they’re age 29 and living in the UK. William Connolley is nearly 40 so it’s probably not him.
Recall that Elmer at M4GW (Minnesotans For Global Warming) already did one of these for the good guys, and did it spectacularly. ( WUWT Thread 2012-07-30 )
So now an AGW hoaxer steps up to the plate, swings and misses. Shameless lame ripoff. Epic fail. You were beaten to the punch Jenkin Brown, you copycat, don’t you realize how it makes you look?
P.S. Elmer if you are reading this, your video periodically returns “an error occurred”. Just a heads up in case they are trying to kill it.
Here is the brilliant one from M4GW at YouTube (currently working) …
”deny the future” ??
How does that work then ?
I always wondered how Daleks can be so evil when they can’t even climb stairs. I would have just parked the telephone box on the second floor.
The very odd thing is that most who visit and write at WUWT would not actually deny the role of CO2 causing some global warming.
Anthony,
It’s inevitable that you attract approbrium — these people (most of them) seriously believe that they are the last hope of Mankind, that they stand alone against BIg OIl and Big Watts whose only wish is to let the world boil. So although it’s difficult, try to laugh. I’ve been wondering myself how the Arctic ice trend hitting a new local minimum would be treated by both sides of the debate. Am I wrong in thinking that the trend is worse than can be realistically explained by the actual temperature change in the 20th century? If so then scientists should be searching for causes, not just waving hands and explaining the data away as so often happens in climate science.
My bet? Black carbon and ‘up in smoke’ oil, 92 million gallons per year according to NASA seawifs in ’94 and much more now. Spilled oil on the melted sea surface will reduce emissivity all through the long winter dark. Etc. The only picture I’ve seen of a polar bear on ice which _doesn’t_ have an oil sheen on the sea is the latest Guardian piece where the surface is anyway so smooth it could be glass. And isn’t the thermohaline circulation due to bring up the warmth from the MWP about now? And, and and…
KBO*, old chap. The world needs you.
JF
*Churchill.
just been reading New Scientist – they really have gone over the top this time!
front cover “ARCTIC MELTDOWN – earth faces its biggest challenge in 3 million years”
editorial “arctic sea ice at its lowest for at least 3 million years”
main article “arguably the greatest environmental change in human history…” what more than the decline of the Laurentide ice sheet?
maybe they regard human history as starting in 1979?
I think a weird thing about human nature is that on the one hand we have skeptics (me) hoping the earth will cool however believe a mild cooling is bad for us. On the other hand we have warmists hoping the earth will warm however believe a mild warming is bad for us. I’m sure there is a word that describes this condition…..
Well done Anthony. I can’t imagine the warmist blogs posting any satire directed at them on their own blogs, least of all the most bitter kind (too many fragile egos).
My Father God rest his soul, survived the Nazis and the Communists (his family were deported to Siberia where only his two Brothers and Sister survived – they had to walk back to Latvia after they were released) was always a cynic when it came to people in authority and he only admired truly great people who made great breakthroughs, he drove people in authority up the wall until his death, because he learnt from bitter experience that you have to think for yourself to survive. If you don’t you become cannon fodder 🙁
In the end the system got him, old and not worth the expense to keep alive (having dealt with the consultant looking after him I have met the Angel of Death), yet he always worked hard and paid his taxes.
My memory of him will always be that you need to think for yourself and pass that on to your children. Luckily here in the UK we still have a fierce sense of our liberty no ID required here – which was great in the Olympic venues you just needed a ticket 🙂
What I know from him is that Extreme Left and right wing are the same, you must have their view or be wiped out, so never think that the rightwing of politics is safe it’s same coin just the other side. Th important thing is to be like Socrates and always question – he was also put to death by the state, but he lived a life worth living 🙂
I’ve long thought that YouTube has *the worst* commenters on the entire internet – and that’s saying something.
On average, they’re all about profanity, racism, sexism, or accusations of racism and sexism, frequently unrelated to the video.
I have a browser plugin that blocks comments on YT, I honestly don’t think I’ve missed anything useful there over the last year.
So at least I can say the *venue* for this comment is entirely unsurprising.
To my knowledge, the Nazis were unconcerned about cO2. They presumed it was just a necessary trace gas and that it was good. I too believe this, yet I am not a Nazi.
Anthony, you have really made it on the interwebs now. LOL. This is the greatest. You have been ultimately demonized. It’s hilarious. You are a big player now. (never forget the Streisand effect)
Guest “post on climate elves” apparently has already been scrubbed from internet. But reports are an independent funded satellite managed to screen capture the back radiation of climate elves. Blog scientists worldwide now open sourcing the attempt to unravel elves’ home IP address from those of trolls. Commentators egging each other on worried the trail will go cold. Consensus holds sway while sea ice temporarily unavailable for comment.
In other news: Anthony’s sense of humor found intact surprising modelers predicting thin skin. Data indicates degree of probing by his dog Kenji’s teeth correlate inversely over years of time to the rising ambient CO2 levels.
I just go back to the quote from William Joseph “Wild Bill” Donovan, former head of the OSS during WWII and father of the CIA. In propaganda you must never, ever, tell a lie. Since the citation of facts isn’t working in their favor, they’re now resorting to character assassination attempts and parodies of past atrocities. We should be glad that they are now on such insubstantial intellectual grounds.
Well anyone can be framed this way and it was not badly done.
What’s funny is that when someone says “we cannot blame it on the wind”, it is a self defeating claim for warmists since the Serreze group even made a special post on the August 8 storm… reinforcing that once again atmospheric circulation is paramount in determining the summer arctic sea ice extent.
Joanne Nova has the best repose. What is it deniers deny?
Man Bearpig says:
September 2, 2012 at 12:33 pm
”deny the future” ??
How does that work then ?
===============================================
Spend like there’s no tomorrow?
i think the intensity of the emotion spent demonizing us reveals the emotional investment they’ve put into the failing paradigm – for that reason – i would like to see less demonizing of their side on our part too
nzrobin says:
September 2, 2012 at 12:34 pm
The very odd thing is that most who visit and write at WUWT would not actually deny the role of CO2 causing some global warming.
======================================================
“Global Warming”? Since the ILA? Who “denies” that? Didn’t you leave out the “Mann-Made” part?
PS Why is it only “Global Warming” whenever it’s hot outside and “Climate Change” whenever it’s not?
“Your Tax Dollars at WorK”.
“Since the ILA?”
I did it again. “Since the LIA?” (That means “Little Ice Age” for nzrobin’s benefit.)
Hi Anthony, in case you changed your mind about this “billboard”, you can use it: http://i50.tinypic.com/oaww0m.jpg
Null Punkte für Originalität
(zero points for originality)
I would point everyone to this comment by Ulric Lyons:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/08/27/sea-ice-news-volume-3-number-11-part-2-other-sources-show-no-record-low/#comment-1069871
on the recent sea ice thread. Things move so speedily in this most marvellous of meeting places that some gems get covered up by events and suchlike.
“Very well done. Except, unfortunately, history will show that climate denialists are worse than nazis.”
Funny…
An exerpt from Wikipedia.
So… who is it that are acting like Nazis?
Why do the warmists not understand that if C02 was warming the planet, it would warm all the planet, not just a few spots. Have any of the “climate scientists” thought of an answer to that?
As a non-scientist in any climate related field and a former vocal supporter of this AGW meme I find myself asking why, if global in nature, the Antarctic doesn’t seem to be exhibiting the same behaviour?
I did try to push this line a couple of times in discussions with supporters of the AWG hypothesis but simply could get a consistent and coherent answer. Yes, I was shouted down.
Anybody please?
Thing is.. A lot of them really believe and i mean are utterly convinced that a climate holocaust is just around the corner. and the only reason in their thinking/worldview that they can come up with to explain scepticism. Is this ‘explanation’
It is not a tactic, they actually belive this.
Which makes it even harder to deal with/reason with than if it was a tactic.
RobRoy says:
September 2, 2012 at 1:01 pm
“To my knowledge, the Nazis were unconcerned about cO2. They presumed it was just a necessary trace gas and that it was good. I too believe this, yet I am not a Nazi.”
The first known CO2 alarmism piece by one of them is as far as I know “Dance With the Devil” from 1950 by Günther Schwab; I found it somewhere and read it and it is basically the blueprint of all of Rachel Carson and Ehrlich. CO2-induced warming is mentioned only as one of many things that the devil’s minions use to bring down humanity in the book, maybe in 5 sentences, but it describes current CO2AGW alarmism perfectly.
Not so much because Schwab was a great thinker but because his dystopian visions got read and repeated by many. Humans love distopian myths and retell them all the time.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/02/the_nazi_origins_of_apocalypti.html
The Nazis during their reign themselves were not concerned about warming. Hitler was member of the Thule society who believed in the existence of an Ultima Thule, an advanced civilization far up in the North, somehow unaffected by polar temperatures. I guess they would have appreciated some warming as they were seeking Lebensraum in the East which had a continental climate with a harsh winter.
Another link between Nazi era environmentalism and the founding of the German Greens is Baldur Springmann, who was purged from the Greens when Leftists cleaned the party shortly after foundation from non aligned opinions. They continue to rule the party to this day.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldur_Springmann
Nothing to see here, really. Don’t pay any attention to youtube comments, there’s far worse ignorance displayed in comments of many other videos of all kinds.
Ad Hominem versus scientific technique then?
I’m sure we can live with that
As the late, great, Dale Earnhardt said when asked if it bothered him to be booed: “You only have to worry when they stop making noise!” They’re taking on the big dogs in the pack when they come here. Congratulations Anthony and crew!!!
“All this denigration because I have an opinion and dare to write about it with citations.”
No, it’s because you’re objectively wrong, immature, stupid and viciously anti-science.
Barry Woods
Absolutely.
Blade says:
September 2, 2012 at 12:33 pm
Recall that Elmer at M4GW (Minnesotans For Global Warming) already did one of these for the good guys, and did it spectacularly. ( WUWT Thread 2012-07-30 )
Brilliant!! Thank you very much for a second (and better) laugh in one thread.
Standard Operating Procedure for some people
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/rnc-star-mia-loves-wikipedia-reportedly-changed-to-dirty-worthless-whre%E2%80%99-who-is-a-house-nier/
h/t Robert W.(Vancouver)/SDA
The Tolerant Left
Derek, you’ve just demonstrated who’s really vicious. Now, let’s see who’s really anti-science.
Let’s take sea-level rise, for example. Do you admit or deny that, thus far, in response to roughly 3/4 century of substantial anthropogenically-driven CO2 increases, there has been no detectable acceleration in the rate of sea-level rise?
It’s really sad when the dialogue falls to such a low level as this. It is no longer about science, it is just plain politics and religious fervour. They are resorting to this sort of stuff to rally their troops as they can no longer construct a rational argument or study the data.
You don’t need to blame it on wind, it was a rare Arctic summer storm. Here is my take on it as posted elsewhere:
Arctic explorers have noticed long time ago that storms by breaking and churning the sea ice turn it into slush, and at same time lift warmer waters from the depths of the Arctic Ocean, the sea ice will melt rapidly.
Now we only need to know why there was so unusually strong Arctic storm in the first 10 days of August, one of only half a dozen or so in the last 30 summers.
http://timenewsfeed.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/arcticstorm2.jpg?w=600&h=400&crop=1
I assume some could say it is sign of global warming, CO2 etc, etc, etc.
Arctic gets another kind of storms, namely geomagnetic storms.
Take a look at top graph here
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/Tromso.htm
it shows that in March-August period this year cumulative strength of geomagnetic storms was about 30-40% stronger than in 2011. Single storm of a medium strength packs as much energy as M6 earthquake, but that is not all.
Another look at the graph shows that in 2011 geomagnetic storms energy was dissipated in the gentle shift of the Earth’s magnetic field, but from the mid March 2012 shift was minimal despite the stronger gm storms. Only a conducting substance could absorb the energy in form of heat and for some reason I suspect it was absorbed by the Arctic most saline section. Notably in addition to it the SST of the Arctic inflow is at peak (higher than in the previous years). We can only speculate if and why the additional energy may cause the ‘energy eruption’ to the surface and in doing so power the August Arctic storm, or if it was just a proverbial ‘flap of butterfly wings’
daveburton says:
September 2, 2012 at 2:25 pm
Derek, you’ve just demonstrated who’s really vicious. Now, let’s see who’s really anti-science.
Please don’t waste your time with Derek the lazy Dalek.
I was going to suggest that this post be in German and that all commenter’s use a translator just to mess with their tiny brains.
Strange, then, that the Antarctic is near record ice levels. Does not compute.
We’re at Gandhi’s “and then they fight you” stage.
What do you say Derek?
“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”
Is it clear that WUWT Blog and “deniers” in general (as the CAGW camp often call us) are in the “fight you” stage.
Not long now. Public opinion is definitely shifting.
It must be frustrating to those who have so much vested in the false religion of CAGW. All their self-importance and higher than thou Eco-evangelism.
Only 4 years ago, mass Western CAGW and Eco-hysteria was at a peak. Princes and Presidents and Vice Presidents had for years been trying to out do each other in catastrophic predictions and promises to save the planet.
President Obama in his inaugural Democratic nomination speech actually promised to begin to slow the rise of the oceans and to heal the planet! (perhaps the very peak?)
This once bold and visionary statement from Obama now looks extremely pompous and ludicrous to a public jaded after 4 years of many grand prognostications, grand plans and largely ineffectual profligate spending.
After accruing massive indebtedness and the to-big-to-fail financial scandals, CAGW and Eco-evangelism will simply become another footnote in the annals of history. Just another signpost of a failing Western Society, which abandoned progress, science and intellectual integrity. Perhaps the Asians will one day mention us in the history books, just as Western classrooms reference Greece and Rome today.
The scientific consensus, UN, EU, US president, world leaders and NGO’s must be very insecure and threatened if they need to attack an unknown “blog scientist”.
Anthony,
This is the only time I’ll ever recommend a quote by Canada’s former PM, Pierre Elliot Trudeau: when told that Richard Nixon had called him an “a$$hole”, Trudeau remarked that he had been called “worse things, by better people.”
Nothing surprising here. Hitler is the great secular satan of the post-Boomer generations; the avatar of evil. The Faithful are those who toss a pinch of black carbon over their left shoulder should the sequestration container tip over on the table. Those who don’t genuflect in such a manner are obviously evil, and so properly compared to the avatar of evil. It’s simply an exhibition of moral touchstones.
However, of significant benefit, is that the witch hunts this time around won’t include the auto da fe; since you are a carbon based organism. Though that means only that organic bathing with a dunking stool is likely still on the menu. Unless, you can show that it leads to anoxic conditions or bleaches coral.
GeoLurking says: “On 13 March [1933], Goebbels had his reward for his part in bringing the Nazis to power by being appointed Reich Minister of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda … with a seat in the Cabinet.”
I’ve watched several of Goebbels’s speeches and wonder if he was hired to make Hitler’s speeches look sane by comparison.
In our corrupt society, we have to recognize the massive slurs directed at WUWT are, in reality, the NEW Nobel Prize.
Congrats, Anthony!
(And you don’t even have to share it with Al Gore….)
Has anyone read the green roots of the German nazi party pre WW2?
I have yet to meet a climate denier.
We have them right where we want them. The alarmists are lashing out like cornered animals. That their argument holds no water is obvious to us but it now has no currency among politicians. Their constituents no longer want to pay for the smugness of appearing to take action on a non-problem. The real problem facing citizens is that they personally can no longer stomach (or afford) what amounts to a luxury tax, the luxury meaning economic success.
We have to continue to goad the climate extremists into making extreme statements. Nothing turns moderate, reasonable people off more than that kind of rhetoric.
The onslaught is just as expected. We will have to weather the storm, as it were, until they are obliged to start pointing to exceptional cold as proof of global warming – again.
The Earth exhibits global globelikeness in all areas. Why then is global warming so patchy?
For the one or two people who don’t already know:
Whoever made the video hasn’t paid much attention to this web site. There hasn’t been a guest post from Steven Goddard here in about 2 years.
Also, “fact checkers” usually don’t put much focus on left wing videos, columns, and such. So the errors in this video are likely safe from them.
remember its important to do the opposite of what they want you to do . when they use anger , bitterness & resentment we must respond with politeness , charm & decency . not only is it the right thing to do it also wrong-foots them far more than ad homs or profanity . antony i believe you have the patience of a saint .
I can never see reference to the Nazis without thinking about the historical context and how what happened was pretty predictable, yet denied or ignored by almost anyone who thinks they have something to say about that period of history – and so often, as now, that has a lot to say about the people playing that Nazi card..
The Nazis have been for 60+ years some kind of cartoon scapegoat, some way of removing ourselves from association with evil. Many library shelves are dedicated to how grotesque and deranged they were, and yes I will insert here the obligatory acknowledgement that they were, but people cannot get their heads around the fact that something of this sort is a completely predictable reaction to the conditions that existed in Germany in the ’20s and ’30s.
IMO, the best parallel to Germany in the ’20s is detailed in the much unread and ignored book, “The Mountain People” by Colin Turnbull (you can Google it). That book details, in a scholarly manner, what happened to a tribe of pastoralists when they were stripped of the basis of their culture and their means of livelihood. As one might imagine, it was not pretty.
If the Environuts have their way we will see the same here one day. But those who argue for balance and caution are the evil ones. The word for today, nay everyday, is HUBRIS.
So it goes.
I am not a climate scientist. I am fairly smart, but I think that it is difficult to intelligently analyze this dispute between the conflicting climate scientists . I personally think that Al Gore and his buddies are wrong. But, I am not certain that I am right. I also feel that this debate will be going on for many more years.
Even though this debate will be going on for a very long time, I believe that less damage will be done to our economy and more good will come to our planet and its inhabitants if we get a problem solving businessman to run the show !
Go Mitt and Go Clint !
They can levitate. IIRC, it usually comes as a surprise, even to the Doctor. Perhaps he forgets between incarnations. http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Remembrance_of_the_Daleks_%28TV_story%29
It says something about “warming” if the ice is actually “melting.” From the sea ice reference page, it looks like temps have been below freezing for a couple of weeks now, and never got higher than average when they were above freezing.
http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/meant80n.uk.php
Except absolutely none of them believe it enough to stop using modern conveniences and relying on a fossil fuel energy infrastructure.
how funny u posted it anthony. i saw it on National Geographic’s Scienceblogs, posted to none other than Greg Laden, yesterday. does NatGeo approve, i wonder!
there were two comments yesterday, one of them by Laden himself, and now there are THREE:
scienceblogs: Everyone who isn’t a blog scientist, please leave the room….Posted by Greg Laden on August 31, 2012
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/08/31/everyone-who-isnt-a-blog-scientist-please-leave-the-room/
Congratulations for that affirmation of how much influence Watts Up With That has achieved.
This is quantified by comparing Alexa’s
Daily reach ~ 0.01%
That is a marked contrast with Alexa’s:
Daily reach ~ 0.001%
Stephen Wilde,
Every time I visit a climate page either pro or anti warming, I am prepared to reconsider. I don’t regard my skeptical point of view as absolutely true and correct. I could easily be wrong.
What converted me from a believer to a skeptic is all the lies and dishonesty on the CAGW side, and I’m not just talking about the Manns and CRU’s. Like you, Stephen, I have a legal background and my BS detector is pretty well-developed. There seems to be a culture of intellectual fraud and professional misconduct among warmists.
I’ve spent many hours learning atmospherics and I’ve done the math. I understand the greenhouse effect but I don’t understand the feedbacks. That’s because nobody understands the feedbacks. (Not even the late Richard Feynman.)
If the feedbacks in the climate models had been correct, by now we might have been in a lot of trouble. Fortunately the predictions have not come to pass — so far.
Like Dr. Patrick Flood I believe that a warm planet is a happy planet. In addition I have two biases that make me want to disbelieve in CAGW. The first is the damage which warmist legislation has done to the developed economies. In turn the developing economies have suffered too.
Second, while warming is a long-term issue, right at this very moment the world is faced with urgent problems of poverty and water scarcity. The distortion of priorities in favor of carbon, has resulted in a gross imbalance in the allocation of resources.
I’m not worried about being associated with Hitler. I’ve been an atheist my entire adult life and have had plenty of time to get used to it. Even those with the best of intentions can behave
maliciously at times.
The temperature of the air could be a lot below zero and ice wouldn’t form. It depends on the temperature of the water. There is a phenomon called ‘polynya’ where there is an unfrozen area within the ice pack. The air can be fifty degrees below zero and the water will be open all winter.
Anyway, the ice area will shrink for a little while yet, in spite of the fact that the air is below freezing.
re greg laden link…should have said “posted by greg laden”. btw i didn’t watch it and only realised it was the same video when i saw it on WUWT today.
“history will show that climate denialists are worse than nazis”
Riiiiiiiight. Because not agreeing with these clowns’ opinion on something is exactly like sending Jews to the ovens – but worse somehow.
These losers are dilusional. I’d say they’ve jumped the shark, but why insult sharks?
They are truly getting desperate. They look at your blog so they can tear it apart, but the science is too sound and they have nothing to get a handle on. So – typically – they make stuff up. The good thing is, the more they scream about you, the more people will come in for a look, the majority of whom will recognize science and common sense and wham, they’ve lost a few more to rational thought.
The more they rant, the more illogical they look and the more people question them and their motives.
I think the comming elections will see a turn around of all things green. It might not be sudden, but it will the beginning of their grasp on power slipping forever.
Meanwhile, I find it strange and disturbing that these bods can read your blog and not learn anything. They no longer recognize science when they see it. They no longer question. They think it’s bad for others to question. Worst of all, they crave destruction merely to be proven “right”. Sad sad sick bunch that they are.
Keep up the good work, Anthony, you are a much needed oasis in the desert.
Bennett said (September 2, 2012 at 11:37 am)
“…Wow, they really sink to new lows with every passing week. On the bright and cheery side, they’re obviously reading WUWT on a daily basis. :-)…”
I’ve noticed that, too. I’ve seen that a few blogs base their current story on something that appeared here first. They won’t comment here, because they don’t control the moderation.
So Tamino can thank us now – he’s just found the theme for his next few stories. And, as usual, his regular crowd will pile on, and his moderators will turn a blind eye to any “off topic” comments.
“Denialist” Commonly meaning an individual that denies that the Nazi Holocaust ever occurred. Yes, it happened and the most common number that I read is some 12.5 million civilians under the control of the Nazis were murdered; about 6 million were Jews.
But… in the 1930’s, before Hitler came to power, the New York Times covered up a genocide on the order of Hitler’s. It is was a massive engineered starvation called the Holodomore in the Ukraine. And the New York Times? Their simile was “you can’t make an omelet without breaking eggs”. Some ten million murdered and they say it’s like making an omelet. Madeline Albright has been quoted as saying “yes, Stalin DID murder 40 million people but he industrialized the Soviet Union so he was good for the country. But wait, there’s more. The New York Times praises Communist China. In the 1950s, Chairman Mao and the communists systematically murdered 40 million people during the “Great Leap Forward” (Total murdered by Mao and the Communists, somewhere around 60 million). Now the Communists harvest organs out of still-living prisoners. And the NYT says we should be more like them.
Denialist? In the last 100 years the Communists have murdered some 120 to 170 million and the NYT and the Liberals think it’s “just dandy”.
If someone denies the Nazi Holocaust, we all agree that they are beneath contempt. So…..if someone denies the Communist Holocaust, are they ten times worse? The Communists DID murder ten times as many as the Nazis. Personally, I believe that you have to be either ignorant or evil to read the NYT. Most of their readers are ignorant self-important fools pretending to be “intellectuals”.
Contemptible.
They also believe in CAGW.
Regards,
Steamboat Jack (Jon Jewett’s evil twin)
It seems like he’s not open to comments, at least not on my browser, so here’s the comment I would have posted if he wasn’t such a weenie:
Dear Jenkin,
Why don’t you grow a set and post it directly on WUWT ??
Commenters there have already ripped you a new one close to where the set that you don’t have would be located.
Weeenie.
Regards, Phil
henrythethird said (September 2, 2012 at 6:00 pm )
Thanks for the quote, Sir Henry. You observations are dead on, as are those of the gentleman who cited Alexis stats. This here blog is where the truth gets spoken, in both the articles (99.99%) and the comments (for the most part).
Thank you Anthony, and all of the knowledgeable commentors (especially Smokey), I’ve learned so much here on WUWT.
Omno, VERY funny on the Daleks! LOL!
Re: Godwin’s law, that’s an area I bumped into many times over the years in my own fights. As a result, several months ago I developed my own law: McFadden’s Law. I’ve used it with some success several times this summer on the news boards! You can see it at http://encyclopedia.smokersclub.com/265.html
I think that in the area of climate change, you’re likely to see these sorts of attacks increase as your opponents realize that it is difficult or impossible to really win a debate when the argument stays purely in the realm of science and when you have an equal shot at the public microphone. The problem you face, similar to the problem that Free Choice activists have faced over the years, is convincing larger numbers of people to actually read, hear, and think about the facts and the science that you’re presenting them with. It’s too easy for most people to simply choose to stay with the “safe” opinion: i.e. the opinion that the “established authorities” say is the correct one. If they agree with the climate skeptics they’re afraid they’ll be called “stupid” or “deceived” or “shills for the big corporations” or whatever and if it turns out, down the road, that they were wrong, they’ll be laughed at for their idiocy. If they agree with the establishment though, even if they’re eventually proved wrong, they can simply say, “Hey, I simply agreed with what the established scientists, experts, and organizations (i.e. supposedly the ‘smart people’) told us. You can’t blame ME!”
What I think the skeptical community really needs in order to break through that wall are some good examples of statements by the warmers that are so obviously crazy that even the average person would be embarrassed to consider them as being legitimate. And the Free Choice arena for example we will try to point to things like thirdhand smoke, or claims that half of all smoking is caused by seeing actors in movies who smoke, or huge campaigns to paint all cigarette packs puke green as an effective way to stop people from smoking. Of course there are a fair number of people out there who believe even these things nowadays! But the general point is that the main weakness of your enemy lies mainly in their lies and if you can find the most obvious lies that they tell and continue pointing them out, then, hopefully, your listeners will begin realizing that maybe a lot of the other things that they are hearing from the warmers’ camp are also lies.
Meanwhile, something like this video can actually be turned to your advantage! People who watch it and who didn’t know previously that there was any real debate going on might actually start taking a look to see what all the fuss is about and come visit WUWT!
– MJM
This is a huge honor, Anthony. No one is ever going to bother to make a Downfall parody about the rest of us. I’m sure Steve McIntyre will be too much a gentleman to hold a grudge on you getting the nod over him.
I’m of two minds about this clip. On the one hand, I’ve never seen a Downfall parody that didn’t make me laugh, and this one made me laugh loudly enough for people to come from the next room to watch it. On the other hand, it is something of a faux pas to attribute specific names to the characters – not just you, but marc morano. If it weren’t so funny, I would worry that Marc might want to sue.
Well done,Anthony. Like the old saying,you know you are over the target when you are taking flak. The biggie will be when they reference Hitler/Nazis AND call you a racist to! 🙂 As an aside,I wonder if I can get a grant to study what side of the political spectrum warmistas are on?
I originally found out this blog because youtube suggestions based on my looking at evolutionary documentaries, recommended weirdly a potholer54 (or whatever his name was) video where he responded to Lord Monckton, and the URL was in the description.
You have arrived, Sir Anthony. Congratulations,
As The Enlightened One, would you please mind telling me what the heck I’m denying? So far, I’m on record here at WUWT as denying that Greenland has warmed up to the same point as when the Vikings settled there. Beyond that, there’s not much to discuss re CAGW until we reach that point again, and I hope we do. Those were definitely the good ol’ days.
Rock on, Vikings! I’m rooting for you all to come back.
Wow – worse than Nazis! I’m amazed. I’d love to see the peer-reviewed evidence and citations of that statement. Oh, wait…
Haha… That video was hilarious!!! Thanks for posting….
Coming from a different culture I do not find it funny at all.
It is pure propaganda and libelous.
No one but someone who was a regular reader at WUWT would have the SLIGHTEST clue…of what in the world that was all about.
I, for one, welcome our new Downfall overlords.
Honestly, I laugh at almost every one of these parodies. The best is still the one about the real estate crash, but this one is pretty good, IMO.
To me, the best way to fight this is with a Downfall parody of our own. Make Mann, or Gore, or Hansen the new Hitler. That would help cause it to show up as an option when folks google for Downfall Climate Change..
But for God’s sake, let’s not be whiners.
But for Good sakes.
Nooooooo, not the mention of the Dalek! It is 2012 though,,,,(ª¿ª)
Ya just never know watt you can run into on this site.
I often wondered if the below manufacturer actually produced a Mann size version of this thing………..
Der Untergang is a 10/10 movie. Bruno Ganz’s portrayal of Hitler is one of the greatest pieces of acting one can ever see. Everyone should watch it to gain a deeper understanding of the phenomenon of meglomania. You will then better understand the mentality of CAGW proponents.
My son found this comment on a youtube video:
“everything we do is natural ??? , damaging the ozone layer, air
pollution , cfc,s , global warming , melting of the polar ice caps ,
deforestation , climate change , animals being driven to extinction
,nuclear war …. all considered natural ???? .we are not a natural
part of this planet we are only it’s guests, building cities is never
beautiful not without a cost to our delicate eco system .”
I am sure it seems thankless and exhausting sometimes – but doing the right thing eventually yields positive results in the end. WUWT has provided rational and well-documented discussion for those, such as this young man, who have been so terribly miseducated. This really is bordering on child abuse.
I think my video is funnier than theirs, just like Hitler says in my video.
I never use vulgarity I don’t think its funny it’s the lowest form of humor.
I never say Hitler is “he who should not be mentioned” I just infer it.
I thought the elf thing was funny but how how can you beat “People will not be afraid of just a stick chart”?
Plus, he never mentions Antarctica or how the North Pole was totally ice free in 1959.
To all the warmers and alarmists out there. You lot give up your computers, cars, and everything else derived from fossil fuels. If you truly believe that we are killing the planet put your money where your mouths are and you lot go back to the dark ages and leave us normal people in peace to get on with how we want to live our lives. Anb, by the way, if you lot do give up using fossil fuels that will leave all the more for the rest of us.
I an a very small cog in the huge worldwide industry that brings everyone fossil fuels and the huge benefits they bring to mankind and it pisss mee of royally to be slagged off and abused by the green brigade who use and benefit from fossil fuels as much as the rest of us.
Time will not change the tune of the f***ds. If it cools, the will blame AGW. if it warms, they will blame AGW. Being a climate f***d means never having to say you’re sorry.
It’s probably best to try and keep a sense of humor, we’re probably still going to need it later.
But did somebody mention the DALEKs?
I haven’t watched the video yet myself. But I just want to comment, for all those people saying how evil it is to belittle Hitler’s evil. We thought it was really funny when it was the alarmists who were parodied with the same meme. Maybe it hits a little closer to home for us, since they’ve been comparing us to Holocaust deniers for a decade now. But funny is funny (if indeed it is funny, I don’t know). And the Hansen/Gore/Glieck/Jones/[insert prominente AGW alarmist name here]-as-Hitler parodies outnumber the Sceptic-as-Hitler parodies about 10 to 1. Let them have their fun. Their days are numbered. (And no, that wasn’t a death threat – I was referring to their days of being taken even halfway seriously.)
I appreciate the point that the air over the Arctic ice has not risen at all. It is therefore interesting to note that the ‘models’ are claimed to show ‘polar warming’ comes first. This warming is quite separate from ice melting. Slight warmer air, were it to actually be >/i> warmer, would not melt the sea ice in any case. So, I am wondering what the modeled temperature is.
Further, if the heat that melted the ice came from below it means that heat is now gone and the system is cooler. The Arctic radiates far more heat than it receives. The consequence of a high melt in a short time is more rapid refreezing come the Fall.
If the ocean circulation manage to change and remain so, perhaps the ice might disappear each summer. That will be a great advantage as it increases the farmable area of the planet in the far north.
Personally I am a little fed up with the ‘you aren’t a climate scientist, so your opinion is not valid’ argument.
Dr Johnson always comes to mind “You may scold a carpenter who has made you a bad table, though you cannot make a table. It is not your trade to make tables”.
FWIW my job was building and running computer models, so I know for sure what a crock they are 🙂
I have to turn of the sound otherwise I would miss the subtitles.
history will show that climate denialists are worse than nazis
On the logical level is it not equivalent to “history will show that nazis are better then climate denialists”? If he believes so, he would definitely need a time machine to take him back to those bitter times, just for a first hand experience. Oh, wait, no. Would he not join that crowd? Provided, of course, he has the right heritage that happens to suit the official line of the National Socialist Worker’s Party. Otherwise…
I saw it and thought it as funny as all the other parodies, I thought Anthony would take it in good heart and also laugh equally at this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ymxLA5oRYI which shows the opposite side. I’m sure a while back there was an extended debate on this site about freedom of expression and why it should not be limited, I recall getting a lot of stick when I suggested it did have limits. So, in following that philosophy, when people joke, just laugh, even when the joke is on you. If you do not laugh at such Monty Python antics as these videos, you give them power far beyond their original intention.
OReilly?
I submit the laundry list you gave is pretty much exclusively the territory of the types that made the video, not those who deplore it.
A further note: the Daleks mostly spoke only one thing: “Exterminate! Exterminate!” The resemblance to the neo-Malthusian Eugegicist Gaians is compelling.
Once again, the call goes to out to jail deniers.
Where is justice on behalf of the victims of the climate criminals? I refer here to those criminals who have knowingly and willfully carried out a largely successful media disinformation campaign designed to thwart the efforts of the scientific community to alert the public to the necessity of recognizing and reforming our unsustainable economic and industrial models of civilization. Why aren’t climate change deniers being sent to prison?
http://www.smmirror.com/articles/Opinion/Weather-To-Climate-Change-Deniers-Hows-Your-Convention-Going/35367#comments
Actually, they levitate. Saw it several times.
[They actually needed steel plates on the floor in the earliest episodes! Levitation came much, much later ~ac]
A common calumny. That’s Statism, and true rightists oppose Statism in all its forms.
Hitler, btw, was a Leftist. A Socialist. A National Socialist. The “National” part confuses people.
The really interesting thing is the only people getting stress induced ulcers are the people who worry that the earth is gunna burn. Their lives must be truly miserable.
And the really funny thing is the ONLY people who are really hanging out for global warming to come roaring back with a vengance are the very ones who claim it will be the end of us all !!
(Well OK – there may be some really cold people who live in really cold climates that may wish it would start up again)
Now that is twisted and evil !
“Even their videos are funnier!
Like this one!”
Indeed!
Oh well, on a brighter note we have a sunny day here in the UK. I might even get the BBQ out for the third time this year! Oh yeah, I’m denying AGW…. but I’m increasingly worried about the dawn of the new ice-age. Meanwhile I note with some irony that Hitler invented the “peoples car” known as the Volkswagen Beetle. So it’s all his fault anyway……
The Arctic sea ice coverage is not clear cut. Satellite coverage might be good but is the data? If there is a genuine problem with the data from the old satellites then we must use the newer data from the non degraded satellites. Also if there is an acknowledged problem with these old satellites why does NSIDC persist in their use and report their data?
Dear Anthony,
Your loyal fan base has said it all. I do love that video clip though, as you say it can be used for everything & anything! I still recall that AR4 maintains that the Arctic was warmer in the 1940s than today (2006), but hey ho, never mind about facts, nor the fact that the Arctic has been ice-free in the past, & that the last 4 interglacials were warmer than today by as much as 5°C. Never mind logical reasoned argument, let’s stick to the used car salesmen technique of pressure selling by using the good old time factor “the deal is only on the table today, if you don’t sign today the deal is off!”. Still, it is a pretty nasty & unpleasant thing to say about anyone, I do not see my self as part of some super-human master-race looking down upon anyone who disagrees with me as inferior & to be regarded with utter contempt as sub-human & requires enslavement & extermination, I just think they are wrong & misguided!
Yours sincerely
Alan Hannaford
CEng, MIStructE
In a TV documentary, Niall Ferguson linked the pseudoscience of Nazi eugenics to climate change. I nearly spat out my drink!
Oh and whist on the subject, the term holistic came from Jan Smuts, who was thinking of natural order in nature and used it to justify apartheid.
The problem for me re. climate change hasn’t been the science, it’s what people have been wanting to do about it. Their “solutions” reflect their worldview and their beliefs. Not uncommon that an environmentalist has told me that even if climate change science is wrong, it is still ok because it is about reducing consumption, it is about “reducing greed”.
The world needs social change –– but the environmentalists need to change. They need to stop peddling an 16th Century set of social mores.
Hey, it is funny! Credit were it’s due.
Especially the bit about the elves! If we cannot laugh at ourselves or appreciate others creating a skit at our expense we are doomed!
Bit pathetic really. I’ve watched a number of these parodies about different subjects and they’re usually fairly funny. But the joke is becoming a bit tired now and this one isn’t funny just a bit silly. They’ve tried to jump on the train after it’s left the station.
$50 says the only science “Jenkin Brown” has ever had was preceded by the word Political, with the rest of the morons on campus.
Godwins Law, Daleks and Spike Milligan in the same thread ? Man, I love WUWT.
Brian H:
At September 3, 2012 at 2:00 am you assert
Nonsense! He was a fascist: i.e. as right-wing as is possible.
His use of the word “socialist” was intended to confuse people (as you are trying to do).
Similarly, any country which uses the word “democratic” in its title probably is not.
Richard
There is a simple word in the English language that semantically has a noble interpretation, but is almost always used pejoratively. It a word that consistent defines the Liberal mindset when it comes to factual arguments. The word is ignorant. Perhaps its because so many Liberals appear to be schooled in the poetry of language, without ever learning anything of the meaning of the words themselves, or have never reflected on their context. Its as if all they have ever learned about knowledge comes from the lyric of the language used to describe the fact, and nothing of the fact itself. Modern journalism comes to mind as the most egregious commercial expression of this.
This lyricism is the essence of the sound-bite; a momentary construct of language that may or may not have any content. To Liberals, the content is irrelevent. Its the impact of the lyric that defines the the context for them. The phenomenon is akin to listening to a foreign language and learning to mimic the sounds without ever really learning the meaning of those sounds.
Ellen Goodman is ignorant. Jenkin Brown is ignorant. Neither of them have any idea of what they are talking about. They are entirely about listening to their own lyric. All dog-whistle, no dog.
——————-
FWIW, as a former scientist, and apparent “denier”, I see no scientific evidence that CO2 is causing global warming, whatever the source. I agree that the molecular physics of CO2 provides for the availablity of local heat as a contribution. I see no evidence that the contribution is in any way significant to the ambient temperature of the earth. As a long-time student of the biosphere, imo, the CO2 hot-dog won’t hunt.
daveburton says:
September 2, 2012 at 2:25 pm
“Derek” won’t be back, I would wager.
I would liken him to a chimp who, having thrown his poo, quickly clambers off up the longest branch but research shows that those primates who throw “stuff” have greater intellectual abilities than those who don’t, so, I guess I won’t 😉
steve says:
September 2, 2012 at 12:37 pm
just been reading New Scientist – they really have gone over the top this time!
front cover “ARCTIC MELTDOWN – earth faces its biggest challenge in 3 million years”
—
Don’t worry Steve (and everyone else). The Arctic will refreeze this fall and winter like it always has (and always will).
I guess the lame point of the insult is that Hitler roasted the Jews but you want everyone to fry (for some reason?). I will stick with you Anthony, I know its not healthy but I prefer fried to roasted anyday.
Hint this is not meant to be insightful it is meant to raise a laugh.
Anthony:
You have class, integrity, intelligence, wit and passionate dedication to a worthy cause. Your detractors don’t know you and are spewing their venom on a chimera of their own invention. The only thing this means is that you’re getting their attention. Pity they won’t spend the same effort really trying to understand all the evidence.
When an objective history is finally written of our age, you will have an honored place.
I missed the post on climate elves.
Was that another Penn State project?
The video was brilliant, it clearly shows exactly each topic/person that they are afraid of. They are really getting desperate and it is showing clearly.
Steve T
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it”. Dr P. Joseph Goebbels, Third Reich.
David L. Hagen
Those alexa numbers don’t lie.
And this parody video really isn’t that good. It isn’t imaginative, not creative. They could have done a better job at bringing more “skeptic” names in. They could have made funnier lines. They could have put more thought into it. It’s not a worthy effort. It is myopic.
I can tell the difference with REP not here. How do you replace a man like him!
richardscourtney says:
September 3, 2012 at 4:35 am:
Brian H: At September 3, 2012 at 2:00 am you assert
H1tler, btw, was a Leftist. A Socialist. A National Socialist. The “National” part confuses people.
Nonsense! He was a fascist: i.e. as right-wing as is possible.
====================================================
If we agree that socialists parties are left-wing, then Hitler’s party NSDAP was an extremely nationalistic left party. They were not as radical left as communists, but still left. At the same time they were extremely nationalistic. “Left” and “nationalistic” are different criteria, so you can have different combinations, like both extremely nationalistic left party and extremely nationalistic right party.
I have learned so much from this website WUWT. I cant believe some comments left by people on that you tube video. This has always been a friendly blog here and I support WUWT 100 percent.
since scientific enquiry proceeds through scientific technique, and evidence from observed/observable variables and then goes on to form a hypothesis, then it is within the bounds of those making this hypothesis to gladly accept refutations and criticisms.
If it does not then it is a belief which has little to do with argumentation, and this retards scientific enquiry. On this basis I do not think the real reason that proponents of climate change (formerly anthropogenic global warming) condemn sceptics is that they regard them as “deniers of truth”, but that they expose a null hypothesis. Since sceptics of AGW have a highly reasoned version of the climate, then it is within the interests of scientific institutions to explore the probability of the arguments, both from the highly detailed level (thermal properties of c02, gas laws, changes of air pressure and their effect on termperature) to the historical record of climate change.
So called “climatology” is interesting as one of the few branches of science that can be verified by history, either direct of by proxy, similar to geological or paleontological hyotheses.
Rarely does a new idea in geology become the subject of ad hominem as does new ideas in *climatology*, for example
Amusing and informative post.
The labelling gun of the Communist Fascists and other religio-political ideologists seems to have plenty more bad labels loaded in its magazine than just “Nazi” or “”bestiality”. I wonder why only two were used on you (Anthony Watts)?
I can understand The Nazi reference – it’s aligned with Godwin’s Law of Nazi Analogies – but the bestiality thing has me puzzled. Are you from (say) an Aussie sheep farming community?
I think you may have been subtly slighted by them using too few labels on you. Request that they apply some more!
Not to worry. The use of such labels is potentially a very telling comment on the labellers. For example, how about Gleick’s disastrous tweet on Clint Eastwood (the empty chair play).
Agreed with:
Paul Coppin:
September 3, 2012 at 4:39 am
However, i would replace the word “lyricism” with rhetoric. Rhetoric aims to persuade than to inform
Hmph. And where does that “Jenkin Brown” nom-de-guerre come from?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dreams_in_the_Witch_House
Q.e.d.
It would seem they really think our entire objection to CAGW rests on the absence of warming. It’s as if they believe if they prove warming they’ve proven it’s not natural and catastrophic.
Dave Dodd says: September 2, 2012 at 2:07 pm: As the late, great, Dale Earnhardt said when asked if it bothered him to be booed: “You only have to worry when they stop making noise!”
Oooh. THAT would give me the creeps. It somewhat reminds me of my wife.
Dan in California says:
September 2, 2012 at 12:21 pm
I have a question rather than a comment. I was under the impression that sea ice extent and area were monitored by satellite and “all of recorded history” only goes back to 1979.
_______________________
According to the CIA by the early 1970’s the world snow and ice cover had increased by 10 to 15%:
http://www.climatemonitor.it/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/1974.pdf
Perhaps the satellite record begins at a high point and we are returning to normal?
Who knows? Not the Homer Simpson clones, that’s for sure.
Anthony, take the humorous video as a huge compliment.
Pretty funny vid. But in the end, just more data editing to support a theory.
“Unfortunately Anthony, the real test for CAGW will be time. But for what it is worth, crow we will when reality and record will prove you right. And for what it is worth the above video will be icing on the cake.”
Not really. The left writes history. It has already completely edited out the fawning of American progressives over Lenin, Stalin, Hitler and Mao. Being wrong only gets remembered if you are not progressive. Being right would only get remembered if you were.
Do you remember the spectacle of all the leftists standing at the grave of Ronald Reagan reminiscing about how they had won the cold war with Ronnie–noone called them on it. I’m old enough to remember those same people vigorously campaigning against everything Reagan did to win the cold war. “Vigorously campaigning” is probably too gentle a term.
So global warming, global cooling, and climate change will just never get mentioned. If mentioned, they will then deny there is any such bird as a “crow” and if there is, its existence proves them right and in any event, for them to eat it would be absurd because polar bears are nice and conservatives are racist.
Bertram Felden says: September 2, 2012 at 11:37 pm: Personally I am a little fed up with the ‘you aren’t a climate scientist, so your opinion is not valid’ argument.
Dr Johnson always comes to mind “You may scold a carpenter who has made you a bad table, though you cannot make a table. It is not your trade to make tables”
Personally I’ve been using the analogy that I don’t have to be a chef to know that the steak is burnt..
But hey, “they” tend to be weak in the logic circuitry and produce all sorts of fallacies already cataloged by Aristotle.
Garethman says: September 3, 2012 at 1:23 am — If you do not laugh at such Monty Python antics as these videos, you give them power far beyond their original intention.
I cannot watch Monty Python’s Dead Parrot Sketch without thinking of the warmist/skeptic discussion. “I wish to complain about this temperature data set I just bought not an half hour ago from this very boutique.”
Or associate the Black Knight sketch to why is is that the CAGW narrative refuses to die.
Greg House:
Your post at September 3, 2012 at 7:01 am claims fascists (i.e. the extreme right) are left wing. This demonstrates that your knowledge of political philosophies matches your knowledge of climate science.
Richard
I am already a member of the KKK for not supporting socialism, crushingly high taxes and debt as well as vast government efforts to erode privacy and freedom. I am a racist for thinking Obama and Biden are buffoons. I am a psychotic mass murderer for not supporting gun control and I am a Christian fundamentalist (despite being an atheist/agnostic) for not thinking that religious people should be forced to perform marriages for gay people if they don’t approve of gay marriage. I’m a bloodthirsty warmonger for thinking that genocidal tyrants should be met with armed resistance and rebellion rather than with prestigious posts to UN committees on human rights and women’s issues.
The news broadcasters, producers and editors have made this all very clear to me. I won’t tell you what else they have made clear to me since Mr Watts has asked us to keep it civil.
So finding out that I am also worse than a Nazi (though they probably consider me merely worse than a Nazi sympathizer since I don’t actually get out in public to committ Nazi hate crimes against Global warming “heroes”).
Meh.
Let our cultural elite stop their whining and do something about my never ending villainous machinations. Put up or shut up.
Anthony, associating you with anything to do with the events of WW2 is supremely offensive. Of course it is intended to be. However those making these accusations ought to try applying some critical level headed thinking to what they are saying, especially when they endeavour to cast your arguments in the same light as the inhumane atrocities committed against Jewish and other peoples who were considered less than worthy (Russian peasants, Romanies etc). I would not take this lightly if it were directed at me, though I realise it might be difficult to do much about it.
One accepts that engaging in legitimate debate is fair enough, but to resort to such debased commentary is far from funny, what is more it is an gross insult to the millions who died in the concentration camps and elsewhere.
The climate debate shows how fragile free speech is. The world condemns evil in principle, but as a practical matter it condemns evil only in its enemies.
Congrats to SMC September 2, 2012 at 11:49 am: Good catch, and par for the course: “No Pressure”
Just in case you have not seen “No Pressure” by the 10:10 organization, a surviving copy is linked below. It is vile, but in keeping with the Environmental Movement. “Green” turns Totalitarian.
From: http://joannenova.com.au/2010/10/sick-green-psycho-stars-want-to-kill-your-children/
And in opposition: http://joannenova.com.au/2010/10/another-1010-parody/
Sorry for the second clip: not available.
Doug Proctor:
re your comment at September 3, 2012 at 10:20 am
Hear! Hear!
Richard
marchesarosa, the bit about the elves was the only funny part.
P Wilson says:
September 3, 2012 at 7:39 am
Agreed with:
Paul Coppin:
September 3, 2012 at 4:39 am
However, i would replace the word “lyricism” with rhetoric. Rhetoric aims to persuade than to inform
Lyricism was chosen intentionally, as in listening to the tuine in their own heads. Rhetoric implies an understanding to some degree of the language being used. Liberals manifestly do not understand the words; they only like the sound it makes coming out of their mouths….Witness Barack Obama and TOTUS. If he understood his own message, and understood the words, he wouldn’t need it, but like any actor, he’s mouthing somebody else’s thoughts, framing the lyric to suit his own ear.
(For Europeans and Brits who didn’t get the early days of TOTUS, it stands for Teleprompter of the United States. Without it, the current president has no idea what the next note of the song is.).
My YouTube reply:
Anthony saying “how can we explain this”? The explanation is well known, labeled by NSIDC as “The Great Arctic Cyclone of 2012”:
http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/2012/08/a-summer-storm-in-the-arctic/
This storm broke up the ice and blew a bunch of it out of the arctic ocean. Anthony/”Hitler” knows this (see WUWT, 8/27/12). So does the author of this Downfall vid, since he adds the line “we can’t blame it on wind again.” Yeah? Tell that to NSIDC.
Does saying that someone is worse than the Nazis count as “hate speech” in the United States?
http://youtu.be/vhxRS6fPCbA
A simple why?
richardscourtney wrote: (September 3, 2012 at 4:35 am): “Nonsense! He (Hitler) was a fascist: i.e. as right-wing as is possible.”
Richard, I suggest you got that wrong. He was to the “right” of Joseph Stalin only in that Germany’s convulsion was National Socialism, whereas Uncle Joe was “for” International Socialism. This meme was picked up by leftists and applied to all opinions to the right of Uncle Joe.
Enthusiasts included leaders of Italy, Germany, Portugal, Spain, Argentina and elements of the New Deal (until the chicken killed the Blue Eagle).
For further information, see
Anonymous. “Corporate Nationalism.” Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia, August 30, 2011. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_nationalism
Anonymous. “Corporate Statism.” Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia, October 14, 2011. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_State
Wikipedia. “Fascism.” Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia, March 30, 2009. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
Johnson, Dr. Paul M. “Fascism.” A Glossary of Political Economy Terms, n.d. http://www.auburn.edu/~johnspm/gloss/fascism
Richman, Sheldon. “Fascism: The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics.” Library of Economics and Liberty. Encyclopedia, n.d. http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html
richardscourtney wrote: (September 3, 2012 at 4:35 am): “Nonsense! He (der Fuehrer) was a fascist: i.e. as right-wing as is possible.”
Richard, I suggest you got that wrong. He was to the “right” of Joseph Stalin only in that Germany’s convulsion was <National Socialism, whereas Uncle Joe was “for” International Socialism. This meme was picked up by many leftists and applied to all opinions to the right of Uncle Joe.
Enthusiasts included leaders of Italy, Germany, Portugal, Spain, Argentina and elements of the New Deal (until the chicken killed the Blue Eagle).
For further information, see
Anonymous. “Corporate Nationalism.” Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia, August 30, 2011. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_nationalism
Anonymous. “Corporate Statism.” Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia, October 14, 2011. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_State
Wikipedia. “Fascism.” Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia, March 30, 2009. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
Johnson, Dr. Paul M. “Fascism.” A Glossary of Political Economy Terms, n.d. http://www.auburn.edu/~johnspm/gloss/fascism
Richman, Sheldon. “Fascism: The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics.” Library of Economics and Liberty. Encyclopedia, n.d. http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html
This is a second attempt. Apparently the use of adolph’s last name is fatal.
richardscourtney says:
September 3, 2012 at 10:00 am
“Greg House:
Your post at September 3, 2012 at 7:01 am claims fascists (i.e. the extreme right) are left wing. This demonstrates that your knowledge of political philosophies matches your knowledge of climate science.
Richard”
Socialism means the ownership of the means of production by the socialist state.
Fascism means the ownership of the means of production by the corporatist state and the corporations.
Mussolini started his political career as a socialist.
I don’t see much of a difference.
I know that the two groups fought each other, fighting for the power, which makes them even more similar.
How do you explain that Henry Ford supported Hitler as well as Stalin?
In Adam Curtis’ film “The Century Of The Self” you can see a film snippet of Goebbels congratulating FDR for the centralized planning of the New Deal.
The biggest problem with using the Hitler bunker video in this case, is that the comedic value of the satire only works if one is using it on some obviously petty comparison. For example, the Hillary Clinton satire in 2008 when her campaign was losing to Obama was just hilarious, precisely because on one actually thinks Hillary is Hitler. But here, the warmists are using the Hitler analogy without any satire, if they actually think \”denialists\” really are worse than Hitler. It\’s then just a straight comparison, which is lame and not funny at all. The problem her is that these environmentalists just have no sense of humor, so they don\’t know how humor actually works.
Pooh, Dixie:
re your post at September 3, 2012 at 12:15 pm.
I know extremists of all political stripes like to rewrite history, but your claiming H1tler’s political party was left-wing is worthy of Goebbels himself. Fascism is the extreme end of the political right.
But you claim all those socialists who flocked to Spain to fight fascism were fighting against the left? And the German aircraft that H1tler ordered to bomb those socialists out of existence were there because Franco, Mussolini and H1tler were of the left?
Your revisionism is contemptible. And it is absurd.
Richard
When all else fails try logic.
I haven’t bothered to view the video since I know already the gist of what it says – ‘Tell me your sect and I will tell you your opinions’. However, it is possible to devise an argument supporting the ‘worse than Nazis’ view…
1. Define ‘worse’ as ‘causing more deaths’.
2. The Nazis caused say 100 million deaths (total killed in battle, slaughtered in camps, died of malnutrition, illness etc)
3. The alarmists believe that unchecked CAGW will cause vastly more than 100m deaths. One proponent suggests 9 billion (yes, that is 9,000,000,000) deaths by 2100 but he’s maybe given to exaggeration.
4. Those of us obstructing the elimination / mitigation of CAGW are contributing to these deaths.
QED
I need hardly say that I doubt the producers of the video base their comments on this argument; they are yah-boo politicians not logicians.
jorgekafkazar says: September 2, 2012 at 3:24 pm
GeoLurking says: “On 13 March [1933], Goebbels had his reward for his part in bringing the Nazis to power by being appointed Reich Minister of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda … with a seat in the Cabinet.”
I’ve watched several of Goebbels’s speeches and wonder if he was hired to make Hitler’s speeches look sane by comparison.
++++++++++++++
Same reason that Obama has Biden
@richard Courtney
The single axis model of politics is too simplistic, albeit useful for the left wing as fascism maps to the right wing.
More useful is the political triangle
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/TCH.CHAP31.HTM
which shows that both the communist and fascist mind set lie firmly in the authoritarian, where the state is the only answer to problems. Politically the right wing believes more in the responsibility of the individual.
Dear Mr. Watts:
I sympathize. A series I did on IBM’s mainframe Linux a few years ago drew nearly 3,000 pieces of hate mail -including a hand written note fedexed to my home.
However, what you have here is the result of an illogical confluence. Hate is really the province of the far left in politics and leftists tend to be warmists while warmists tend to be leftists. It doesn’t make obvious sense, but it’s true: the hate addressed to climate sceptics comes from the political left, not from those few among the educated who still believe warmism has objective support.
On the positive side, they’re comparing you to one of their own heros: Hitler, after all, was the leader of Germany’s National Socialist Worker’s Party – a man who, despite the difference in public posture on the means, would have embraced Obama’s goals as his own.
I know; that’s shocking, over-the-top, absurd – but it’s also true, and there’s an explanation: both versions of socialism (along with those headlined by such benefactors of humanity as messrs Mao, Stalin, Mugabe, Pol, Pot, and the Nietzschean theorists of Showa Japan) go back to the same ideas, the same people – Malthus and a whole scat of German “thinkers” preaching resource limitations and the religious role in human morality.
Eric Hunter,
Personally, I think Hitler was a Leftist. But since he lost the war, the winners get to categorize him however they like.
Eric Huxter:
At September 3, 2012 at 1:36 pm you say to me
Every model of anything is “too simplistic” for some purposes.
In this case, the issue was the lie that H1tler and his political party were left wing. Fascism was and is right wing, extremely right wing. Arguments about “models” are an obfuscation useful to the right when attempting to provide confusion about the causes of WW2.
More importantly, totalitarians exist across the entire political spectrum. Stalin from the extreme left and H1tler from the extreme right were totalitarians. So was Mao Tse Dung, and Pol Pot and …
Totalitarianism is the greatest of political threats because totalitarians kill millions and harm many more millions. The lie that H1tler was not of the right – or e.g. that Stalin was not of the left – lowers defence against totalitarianism because it calls on people to only defend against totalitarianism from part of the political spectrum.
Richard
Left-wing, Right-wing, Socialist, Communist, Facist, even Theocracist (Did I just invent a word?) all have one thing in common, subject the choice of the individual to the choice of those who control the State.
I’m a born-again Christian. You have the right to reject him or not. I do not have the right to force you to choose one way or the other. Vice-versa.
Dr Mann visits a lunatic asylum. As he walks among the patients he is congratulated by them on his hockey stick creation. One man doesn’t congratulate him.
“Why aren’t you congratulating me for my genius in creating the hockey stick?” Asks Mann.
“I’m just a nurse,” replies the man, “I’m not mad.”
Gunga Din:
re your post at September 3, 2012 at 2:42 pm.
YES! And that is why totalitarianism is so very, very evil. As you say, those who proclaim totalitarians only exist on the left or on the right are plain wrong, and I add that they are dangerous.
Richard
Richard, I know that the leftist press likes to pretend that Hitler and his National Socialist Workers’ Party was “right-wing,” but it’s simply not true. National Socialism, like Scientific Socialism, was a movement of the far Left. The National Socialists, like all movements of the Left, sought to subordinate the individual and the church to the State, for the common good:
“We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions.” -A. Hitler
The nutty extreme Right is exemplified by hyper-individualism, the extreme Left by its opposite, as expressed very well in this quote:
“National socialism is the determination to create a new man. There will no longer exist any individual arbitrary will, nor realms in which the individual belongs to himself. The time of happiness as a private matter is over.” -A. Hitler
richardscourtney says:
September 3, 2012 at 2:08 pm:
“More importantly, totalitarians exist across the entire political spectrum. Stalin from the extreme left and H1tler from the extreme right were totalitarians.”
=================================================
According to what criterion?
Let us say, there is a new party XYZ. According to what criterion should this party be considered left or right?
And note that there can be only one criterion, because otherwise a party could be left and right at the same time under circumstances.
richardscourtney wrote: September 3, 2012 at 1:12 pm ” Fascism is the extreme end of the political right.” & “Your revisionism is contemptible. And it is absurd.”
You might refer to what Eric Huxter writes on September 3, 2012 at 1:36 pm. Or to the links provided in my original post: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/09/02/quote-of-the-week-i-guess-were-just-beyond-evil-now/#comment-1070713
However, I think you got it right in your post of http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/09/02/quote-of-the-week-i-guess-were-just-beyond-evil-now/#comment-1070783
where you identify totalitarianism as the essence of a murderous evil (with authoritarianism in a milder second place).
– “Totalitarianism is any political system in which a citizen is totally subject to state authority in all aspects of day-to-day life. It goes well beyond dictatorship or typical police state measures, and even beyond those measures required to sustain total war with other states. It involves constant brainwashing achieved by propaganda to erase any potential for dissent, by anyone, including most especially the state’s agents. http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/totalitarianism
– “In an authoritarian state citizens are subject to state authority in many aspects of their lives, including many that other political philosophies would see as matters of personal choice. ” http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/authoritarianism
As you can see, both override the citizen’s right to choose for him/herself. That right is the definition of liberty. In our country, liberty is tempered by constitutional law.
Ultimately, the endowment of human liberty can be suppressed only by force.
Lastly, I suspect we can agree that whatever clever words were used in public, the core of both was tyranny.
As saying goes like this;
“Global warming causing climate change may be the ultimate issue that unites us all”
Ever notice that many liberals just have no morals?
I’m reminded of a quote attributed to Ghandi …..”First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win.”
At least we aren’t on par with the Vogon Constructor Fleet. I mean, they’re going to destroy the earth to make a new hyperspace bypass. We’re just turning up the dial on the easy bake oven.
Veery intersting, but shtupid
Friends:
I am withdrawing from further discussion with the nutters who are claiming the ultra-right does not exist. Discussion with them gives the appearance that there is some credibility in their absurd assertion that fascism is not right-wing.
My refusal to continue engagement with them is NOT my running away: it is an indication of my disgust at those who attempt to reduce opposition to forces of evil that still exist (e.g. Anders Breivik).
Richard
@”richardscourtney”
Do you actually know what the terms “right wing” and “left wing” mean? It goes back to the early days of the French parliament when the liberals and other parties that supported “commoners” sat on the left side of the parliament and those that supported the aristocracy sat on the right. So the question is, did Hitler get his support from the ordinary German or from the German elite? Well the German elite seems to have tolerated the former Corporal from Austria, but the torchlight rallies were very much of the people. Hitler rewarded ordinary people with cars, motorways and even holiday camps. As far as I can see he was very much a man of the left in that definition. May have been a different flavour of left-wing to the British Labour Party, Swedish Socialists, Trotsky or Stalin but so what? None of these people had much time for each other despite being “on the same side” notionally. The idea that Hitler was right wing came about from radical left-wing historians after WWII like AJP Taylor, but does it make sense?
Here are some facts about Hitler:-
Was a communist for a long time before joining the pre-existing Nazi party (the fact that German communism was dominated by Jews seems to have been a factor)
Claimed that ordinary Germans had been betrayed by the ruling class during WWI
Drew his support from ordinary working Germans
Would probably have been elected Chancellor by ordinary working Germans if the trend in growth of support had continued as it had been before the Nazis siezed power
Allied with Stalin before WWII
Allied with Swedish Socialists durring WWII
Did everything he could to stop the Allied advance on Berlin whilst allowing the Communists to take the city.
This all makes sense if you consider Nazism to be a form of communism bound up in nationalism, with the state at the center of everything, controlling German industry, creating ideal “clone” citizens from the working man. Not so very different from the Stalinist or Maoist view of communism.
Of course you could argue that if Hitler was deep down a communist sympathiser, it was strange that he attacked Russia, but modern evidence from Russia itself makes it clear that Stalin intended to invade Germany whilst the Nazis were pre-occupied on the Western Front. This makes strategic sense and thus Hitler’s pre-emptive strike against Stalin can be justified despite its apparent bad timing. You could also claim that Hitler made anti-Communist statements before WWII – but being left-wing doesn’t inhrently mean you are a Communist (Orwell was left-wing but hated Communists and regularly outed Marxists to MI5) and in any case being anti-Communist was a popular stance in Germany guranteed to win votes.
Europeans and those whose thinking mirrors the European model of political thought get terribly confused when they hear Americans discussing left – right issues, because the spectrum is different.
While a given person or group’s position is often muddled, and it can be hard to nail down, if you tell an American (whose ideas are informed by American traditions, primarily) that the National Socialists and the International Socialists were on the *opposite* ends of the political spectrum, they will, and not without justification, look at you as they would someone who tried to sell them their own shirt.
Ironically, this really, really offends the kind of person who says that sort of thing, usually because by unhappy circumstance you’re effectively responding that they’re in roughly the same territory, ideologically, as their dreaded historical daemons.
Part of the problem is that Europeans tend to be so ideologically similar that they think of the terms “left” and “right” in terms of specific social policies or authoritarianism, and that makes no sense in American politics no matter how many hammers you apply to the problem.
This is doubly complicated by the fact that many people in America who call themselves “Liberals” have adopted the European mindset, which is one of the reasons the left and right in the US can’t communicate adequately – they use the same words but they mean completely different things. Thus the constant accusations of dishonesty – resulting partly from people having irreconcilable and impenetrable assumptions about others, which is a horrifying situation.
I see that moderation is up to it’s usual standard and reasonable criticism is getting through.
In fact the only comment which is contrary to Anthony, which did get through, is not representative.
I wonder why that is……
I’m not sure this is worth the words, but the ultra right-winger is an extreme libertarian, not a fascist. Hitler was at the extreme right end of the extreme left, if you can define polarization within ultra-leftists. The extreme left is ultra-authoritarian in all its incarnations, the extreme right is the complete entithesis of that. What the extreme right can’t figure out is who makes the decision to build the public road, while the extreme left easily decides that everybody else should build it for them.
Ryan:
At September 4, 2012 at 3:32 am you ask me
I answer: YES, I do, but your obfuscatory post demonstrates (as a most charitable understanding) that you do not.
I am only replying to your post because it seems probable that you made it unaware my post of September 4, 2012 at 2:12 am was still in moderation. I shall ignore future similar nonsense which e.g. presents as ‘evidence’ that ‘H1tler was left wing because he had a treaty with Stalin’ but ignores that e.g. Churchill had a much stronger alliance with Stalin.
Richard
Fascism is not right wing, no matter how many times that lie is repeated.
With the greatest of respect, Anthony, you invited this sort of parody by suggesting, in another recent post, that those who accept the scientific evidence that the burning of fossil fuels is the primary cause of the climate disruption we are now witnessing actually want people to die from preventable diseases like malaria.
I really do think it is well past the time that you accepted that widespread malnutrition, starvation and premature death are not the result of money being diverted to prevent a problem you say does not exist (or can’t be fixed). These phenomena are the result of too many people living in environments that cannot support them; and of too many people burning too many fossil fuels.
Far from running out, our problem is that we now have too much fossil fuel left to burn; and too many people seem far too willing to dispute that burning them is the primary cause of the change now becoming obvious.
REPLY: As usual Martin, your thinking suffers from a lack of understanding combined with spoon fed talking points. I doubt we’ll ever agree on anything, much less this, and I’ve learned that trying to tell you anything is nothing but a time sink. So I’m not going to bother to comment further as I have more productive things to do with my time than worry about your misguided opinion. – Anthony
“…the other denies the present and future.”
Tommorrow Belongs to Me.
As I understand it (this from an immediately post WW2 hunter of Nazis, while in the British Army – who happens to be my father), Fascism was invented by a lifelong Communist, in an attempt to undo the fatal damage that World War 1 did to Internationalism (i.e. International Socialism), by using a different name? Winning praise from Lenin and other Russian Communists for his activities, and being described as the ideal future Communist Leader of his Country.
The inventor of Fascism described it as “Corporate Socialism” (a Statist by any other name, still stinks as bad), and he led the ‘Fasci’ during WW1.
His name was Benito Mussolini (and I suppose he aught to have known what his own invention was).
Makes you wonder whether ‘Internationalism’ has had yet another name change in the years since, doesn’t it?
‘New World Order’ certainly seems to tick an uncomfortable number of boxes, that’s for sure.
@ Richardscourtney and others arguing over the political affiliations of fascism:
The clearest voice on this issue was that of George Orwell, author, of course, of Nineteen Eighty-Four who, as can seen in the concluding sentences of his essay, “What is Fascism?” found traces of conservativism and ‘all colours of socialism” in fascism. I recommend all of his essays for their outstanding clarity, but in this case his “What is Facism? is a strongly recommended read.
http://orwell.ru/library/articles/As_I_Please/english/efasc
OK, I see the “What is a Fascist?” thread has broken out again.
The common usage as “right wing” was promulgated by Stalin (as everything was to the right of them). The Fascists ( Italian Government, as opposed to ‘fascists’ lower case that’s the generic term) and the NAZI had several things in common. Central Planning. Primary importance of Labor Unions ( Fascist comes form the word for ‘bundle of sticks’ meaning strength of a Union Of Workers). Mussolini started his career translating communist literature into Italian and attested that they were good and proper Socialists. Hitler, too, espoused the supremacy of The Folk or The People and the value of Unions. The list of what they held important has a high overlap with the list in Marx Communist Manifesto.
THE primary disagreement was that Communism wanted ONE global system. The Nationalists wanted a distinct Socialism for each Nation (and in the case of Hitler wanted to kill off every other race…)
There’s little doubt that they both were, and are, Socialist systems. In intent, design, goals, and execution. Also in their own words and statements of self.
NAZI is the abbreviation for: National Socialist German Workers Party.
Pretty clear…
I’ve thrashed this through to some great extent here:
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2011/01/20/nationalist-socialists/
Some quotes in their own words here:
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2011/03/25/some-quotes-on-socialism-and-fascism/
such as:
For those wanting a broader look at Socialism(s) and their roots:
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2012/05/02/socialism-utopia-workers-paradise/
And remember that “right wing” and “left wing” are essentially meaningless terms. As originally defined, “right wing” was those seated to the right in the old French Parliament. Kings, Church, Aristocracy. “Left wing” included petty merchants, folks wanting a Republic. Now the “Republicans” are moved to the right? And Socialists to the left where the Republicans and Merchants were?
So please, before breaking out in a “Is SO! – Is NOT!” here; please read those pages. I think you will find the topic pretty well beaten to death there. That the Socialists of today want to distance themselves from the Fascists and Nazis is a very understandable thing. They ARE different (especially on the Nationalist and Racist and Violence aspects). But they still want the same kind of Central Planned and Regulated economy and a Workers Party / Union point of view.
The Fascist Doctrine, for those who want to read it for themselves:
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/fascist-doctrine/
So please please please don’t reprise that same long trudge here. It may offend your preconceived notions of what / who they were, but they were NOT free market capitalists. They were a particularly vile kind of racial supremacists with a Nationalistic streak. But they were also Socialists. (The major reason for the war between Communists and Nationalists was that the Communists wanted ONE INTER-national Communism, while the Nationalists wanted to be in charge instead… Central Planning really hates it when someone says they want to do their own thing; even if it is another Central Planner… )
I will not be responding on this topic in this thread. Anything I have to say is already in those links and repeating it here would be a waste of time and annoying to Anthony. If you want to rant at me, I’ll respond on those threads over at my place.
Wow. So, CAGW is primarily a ruse for mega- to totally-centrally planned governmentalists and those who wish/need to obtain power/money? CAGW “skeptics” are mostly scientifically minded individualists. Those who even can consider that CAGW is not significantly CA gw are assumed enemies of the state by the central planners. And Left/Right needs to be defined prior to debate. Got it, and have gotten it.
Let’s not forget this Hitler classic
In support of E.M. Smith:
Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (National Socialist German Workers Party, NSDAP).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party: “Van den Bruck coined the term “Third Reich”, and advocated an ideology combining the nationalism of the right and the socialism of the left.”
“Social democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism. … These organisations (ie Fascism and social democracy) are not antipodes, they are twins.” (J.V. Stalin: Concerning the International Situation (September 1924), in Works, Volume 6, 1953; p.294.) This later led Otto Wille Kuusinen to conclude that “The aims of the fascists and the social-fascists are the same.” (Report To the 10th Plenum of ECCI, in International Press Correspondence, Volume 9, no.40, (20 August 1929), p.848.)
Scant wonder they are confused as distinct.
Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (National Socialist German Workers Party, NSDAP).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party: “Van den Bruck coined the term “Third Reich”, and advocated an ideology combining the nationalism of the right and the socialism of the left.”
“Social democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism. … These organisations (ie Fascism and social democracy) are not antipodes, they are twins.” (J.V. Stalin: Concerning the International Situation (September 1924), in Works, Volume 6, 1953; p.294.) This later led Otto Wille Kuusinen to conclude that “The aims of the fascists and the social-fascists are the same.” (Report To the 10th Plenum of ECCI, in International Press Correspondence, Volume 9, no.40, (20 August 1929), p.848.)
Scant wonder for the confusion.
[snip – inappropriate comment]
Any chance of a clue as to why?
Peronsally I’ve noticed that it was the Fascists and Communists who tended to create their own view of reality. Rather than going with the facts.
There is no comparison between environmentalism and fascism (or communism), because all dictators have a utilitarian attitude to the environment.