National Weather Service buying hollow point bullets?

Bears.

Perhaps in response to the ‘climate wars’ heating up?
Seriously, I can’t imagine what the NWS needs with any ammunition. Their security, where needed, should be carried out by specialized police forces.

My guess is that they have their own site security for different places – do you know which facilities they own in the towns mentioned?

Well, NOAA *is* one of the seven uniformed services. [Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard, US Public Health Service, and NOAA; as a kid, I used to argue that the Postal Service should be one, but Kevin Costner’s movie made that idea seem stupid.], and its commissioned corps does operate it’s own aircraft and ships.

I have a funny feeling that my tax dollars are paying for a few NOAA guys to go plinking at the range on the weekends.

Although I believe watching the Government should always be done to make sure things are done correctly, the only thing really “fishy” about this is the timing with the Republican National Convention coming up in Tampa and the order going out right now. But then again, this could be a coincidence since the budgets must be spent by September or be lost. So which is it? – notice destination of ammo as St Petersburg, FL and then you kind of get where I am heading. I tend to think that this is just one of those things we learn about and move on, seems that the NOAA does employ about 100 game wardens for the “high seas” and that they have bought this kind of ammo before. Why was it done through the NWS as the destination? Good question, perhaps budget issues in one department taking up the slack of another? I don’t know, it does not look completely kosher so to speak, but I would tend to think it might be ok…which lead me to say…
Something to watch nontheless. But I personally think this is a non-story at this point in time. Read the comments for some information on this:
From comments at infowars:
exfedagent says:
August 14, 2012 at 9:04 am
GUYS! THIS IS A NON-STORY! I am a former federal agent. NOAA, the National Oceanic and Atmosphere Administration has a SMALL (about 100) group of federal agents and officers who are GS-1811′s and GS-1801′s who enforce federal game laws on the high seas. They are ocean going federal game wardens enforcing the Lacy Act and the Magnison Conservation Act. It’s a great job. I personally know some of them and went to FLETC with one of them. They have been around since at least the mid-1980′s. Almost no one in the public domain and most of the people in federal law enforcement don’t know they exist BECAUSE THEY ARE SO SMALL. They carry .40 caliber handguns and have for many years. This is a routine ammo purchase. They are spending money they have left in their annual budget before the budget closes out at the end of September. Your reactions in your posts are understandable given that you didn’t have the facts!
Reply:
“But why is the purchase being made by the NWS, rather than the NOAA? Does the NWS enforce anything?”
—————————————————–
It isn’t. Click the “Solicitation and Buy Attachment” link for the full RFP listing.
Buyer : DOC NOAA-National Marine Fisheries Service
http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/ole/ole_about.html
REPLY: I thought of that ahead of time. If the solicitation was simply NOAA, this would make sense for the argument that NOAA does indeed have some game wardens. But this specifically said NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE. Which has no such mission (at least none I’m aware of). So the question remains. Why NWS? – Anthony

Sounds like they’re having security problems. That’s really not very much ammunition, actually. Also, hollowpoints are desirable because they put the bad guy on the ground ASAP, with a minimum number of holes in him, while minimising the risk to bystanders.

So they’re getting ammo plus targets to train whomever with. Most of these facilities have light, although armed, security, and so this is likely for them.
But it is very disturbing that they use HP rounds. I guess the Geneva Convection only applies to international wars… Internally, the government can be as nasty to its own citizens as it wants to be. HP’s are for killing…none of this triage BS with wounds that might heal from FMJ rounds…they’re just going to blow you apart, so that FEMA doesn’t have to “take care” of you. As noted, HP’s maximize the damage, and thus death count.
Also note the DHS buying another 750 MILLION (yes, 750 million) rounds of the same ammo. http://www.infowars.com/dhs-to-purchase-another-750-million-rounds-of-ammo/
This is like the lead-up to one of those B-grade sci-fi disaster movies – I’m thinking “Stonehenge Apocalypse”, “Solar Attack”, “Arctic Blast”, “Alien Incursion”, etc.

[snip over the top]

It is not “powerful” ammo – it’s very typical of police issue and self-defense ammo. It’s good for people-sized and smaller critters (like dogs), but not appropriate for bears. The write-up hyping “for maximum organ damage” is just hyperbole. The purpose of hollow-points it to ensure maximum expansion, to limit over-penetration, to maximize the chance of a one-hit stop: basically, you want to dump the bullets’ energy into the intended target, not the backstop (or bystanders). Having to shoot someone multiple times to stop them increases their chance of dieing, and you getting hurt. That’s why the police carry them.
To non-shooters, 46k rounds sounds like a lot. Some top competitive shooters go through that much *per year, by themselves.* It’s less than a thousand rounds per week. So, if you need to train a bunch of non-shooters the basics of shooting and self-defense, it is really a fairly small purchase. The US civilian market is more than 10 BILLION rounds of manufactured ammo per year – heavy shooters often buy powder and bullets in bulk to load their own and save money.
But, yah, WHY? The WEATHER SERVICE?! It’s not like the FedGov is flush with extra money to prep for a Zombie Apocalypse, and while some don’t like their station-sitings, it’s not like they need to be defended from a frontal assault. If their employees need self-defense stuff, let them exercise their 2nd amendment rights and arm themselves on their own dime.

At least one of the deliveries seems to be for the NOAA Law Enforcement section. One of the names given is also mentioned in a press release: “Jeff Radonski, Assistant Special Agent in Charge, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), Office of Law Enforcement”
http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/ole/news/news_sed_050610.htm
Some of the other addresses seem to be bogus (although the map data could be old or off):
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1202&bih=615&wrapid=tlif134496148371711&q=3350+Highway+138,+Suite+218,+Wall,+NJ,+07719&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x89c1876155b815d7:0x172bde43cb5fbb9d,3350+New+Jersey+138+%23218,+Wall+Township,+NJ+07719&gl=us&sa=X&ei=y3sqUIPjOoWe8QS1-IHoDA&ved=0CAcQ8gEwAA
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1202&bih=615&wrapid=tlif134496157820611&q=130+Oak+Street,+Suite+5+Ellsworth,+ME,+04605&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x4caef1ac5796732f:0x3162926f0bb919ea,130+Oak+St+%235,+Ellsworth,+ME+04605&gl=us&sa=X&ei=KnwqUK_6KIuC9gTQioD4BA&ved=0CAcQ8gEwAA

Its probably just for their security guards. Its no big deal, that isn’t that much ammo if they are training with their firearms regularly which they should be.
I’m looking for a good deal now on 5-10k .22lr. I can’t afford any .44-40 for my Winchester yellow boy.

Anthony, you have been (justifiably) beating up the NWS for poorly sited stations and urging them to put more stations in more remote areas. As Aaron suggests above, that means more exposure to wildlife – bears in the north country, alligators in the south, etc. Given the budget cuts, I imagine that means the researchers will be maintaining the sites unattended or in very small groups. If the government is finally recognizing that people need the ability to provide for their own protection, well, that sounds like a step forward to me.
Regarding caliber and bullet type – Sure, a rifle or even a shotgun would be better protection if you have it with you. Long arms, however, are clumsy and get in the way when you’re trying to carry two toolboxes and a stack of spare parts. It’s human nature – they’re going to get left in the truck. Maybe not the first day, maybe not the fifth. But after three months of lugging around a ten-pound piece of equipment that you’ve never used, having it snag on tree branches, fall off your shoulder at the worst possible times and generally getting in the way, there’s a huge temptation to leave it behind. That day of course will be the first day you need it. Pistols on the other hand fit in holsters and are easier to leave on than to take off. Even in the Army (where you’d think that the need to carry your rifle would be self-evident), it was a constant battle to keep soldiers prepared.
A less-effective weapon that you have at hand is vastly more useful than the perfect weapon that’s too far away to help.

Somethings up. Not cool.

Paranoia is rampant in the current administration and there appears to be no moderating influence. You will find no statutory authority for the EPA, the DOE or NOAA being armed and having armed divisions for law enforcement and intervention, but they all do. Formally, investigation of crimes was left to the Federal agencies that are empowered by law for conviction.

Stimulus.

As an avid target-shooter (and re-loader) – and a firm & informed climate “denier” (so I’m on your side) I can assert that this is not really not that much ammo. I often shoot 500-1000 rounds at a sitting. More with company! Practice, practice, practice. Hence the re-loading hobby. The choice of hollow-points is semi-justifiable, but also a bit exorbitant. Welcome to Big Gov’t.
As was said above, I humbly assert that this is really a bit of a non-story – the appearances notwithstanding.

Re: target practice with hollow points
Isn’t it a good idea to train with the exact ammo you will be using?

So the government can show an up-tick in ammo purchases in the United States; both in number of rounds and number of ‘end users’ . There will be no breakdown of either on the graphic in the press release.
As a bonus the graphic will show a tendancy trendint to hollow point.
Wait for the nylon/kevlar/teflon point governmant agency purchases to start, that press release graph would make for a ‘alarming’ trend.

All of the employees mentioned in the RFP are listed as criminal investigators for NOAA. https://nsd.rdc.noaa.gov/nsd/results

JonasM says:
August 14, 2012 at 9:16 am
“Hollow points are the preferred self-defense round by both civilians and law enforcement, primarily because of their stopping power, and because the chances of overpenetration and subsequent harm to an innocent party are greatly reduced. The fact that they ordered hollow points is not noteworthy in and of itself.”
True enough, but what happens when the “innocent party” is the target?

This is to fight global warming

If as they say they are trying to spend their budget for the year I have to ask WHY? It is tax payers money wouldn’t it be nice if you didn’t spend your budget and sent the remainder back to the treasury so the national debt did not grow quite so fast.

Well I’m betting the Polar Bear population will be taking another dive in the near future, further proof of global warming.

Too many Polar Bears?

Anthony,
This was a mistake by the original publication. The NWS had nothing to do with the purchase. It was entirely for the NOAA Nat’l Fisheries Service Office of Law Enforcement. I’m not sure how that got screwed up.
Lee Crowley
REPLY: That’s why I said it might be a typo. – Anthony

Working on a smaller screen here and somehow missed the last bit in the original post above to the Fisheries doc and posted it here only to see it not show up: THANKS to the moderator for catching that. (Blush.) It does reasonably point to your statement about the ‘convoluted government tree structures’ and in that context makes the purchase plausible.

The 130 Oak Street address in Ellsworth ME (see link above John West says: August 14, 2012 at 9:42 am) looks to be a fairly recent (since the street view show’s construction) small office building with the following occupants as seen on the left side of the page:
AAA Insurance‎
Blue Hill Accounting LLC‎
Fiona Young Massage Therapy‎
Hewins Travel‎
National Marine Fisheries‎
Natural Resources Conservation‎
US Consolidated Farm Services Agncy‎
US Customs Services‎
I see the National Marine Fisheries looking very conspicuous since it was mentioned above (and in the #5 position on the list too)

I’m going along with those thinking the ammo and pistols are for guards at the new surface stations to keep anyone trying to monitor those stations away. Of course the purchases could be for those personnel who indulge in practical pistol competition, and those personnel were hoping the purchase would fly under the radar. Or it could be for the killer chipmunks.

Anthony, look at the delivery addresses NMFS OLE is National Marine Fisheries Service Office of Law Enforcement. Paranoid much around here?
REPLY: If I was paranoid, I wouldn’t ask questions or show the sources. Nor would I posit it to be a typo. You simply didn’t read. As usual, you just want to paint me in the worst possible light, so you can make ugly comments elsewhere. I read those anonymous derogatory comments of yours Mr. John Sully (used that because he’s voluntarily outed himself here) and quite frankly I think you are the one that needs help. – Anthony

They’re to go with those shiny new 100 round mags they just got from the fast & furious guys…

Probably to beat off attacks by environmentalists after the NWS stops supporting the idea of CAGW….

About hollow point ammunition, when I took the concealed carry course in Texas, we were advised to use hollow point ammunition for self-defense. Preferably use the same type that the police carry. Winchester, for example, has “Ranger Law Enforcement Ammunition.” A hollow point is much less likely to pass through a bad guy (or walls) and hurt a good guy. As an added benefit, it does have more stopping power. When a citizen or a police officer is forced to use his weapon, the purpose is to stop a bad guy before he can harm you or someone else.

Are the paper targets weather maps — they’re likely to get the same results with darts which aren’t as noisy.

There’s nothing strange about jacketed hollow point ammo. It’s perfect against fleshy targets and is less likely to over penetrate (bodies, dry way, etc.) Unless you’re shooting at body armor or through vehicles or stuff, hollow point is valid. Hollow point is considered humane against soft flesh targets. Less wounding – more killing. People are silly when they get “concerned” about one round or another. A gun is simply a tool to bring about death from a distance. Pick the ammo best suited for the job. A hollow point ain’t no different than a FMJ, ’cause both have their valid uses. They were both engineered to kill.

The National Weather Service listed as the requesting agency was nothing more than a clerical error. The ammo and targets are for the National Marine Fisheries Service, Office of Law Enforcement, Northeast Division.
Business Insider has an article that explains the request and clerical error.
http://www.businessinsider.com/this-is-why-the-noaa-supposedly-ordered-46000-rounds-of-ammunition-2012-8
The request is for 46,000 rounds of ammunition to be used by 63 enforcement personnel who each require at least 700 rounds a year in order to meet requirements for weapons training and qualification as well as the 200 rounds of ammo they’re required to have in their duty bags. 700 x 63 = 44,100
Yes, ideally one would use the same ammo for target practice as they would carry on duty, especially with semi-auto pistols.
Anthony, I’m disappointed that you’ve been fooled by a ridiculous conspiracy site like Infowars without doing your own research to confirm or deny the allegations. I thought you were better than those Alex Jones conspiratards.
Sincerely,
Tim Erney

Non-story. I am guessing this happens all the time. I suppose that Social Security offices provide ammo for their security staff. I can also imagine that when one budget column gets used up, other columns are used, even crossing into other sub-departments to fund another department’s need. Happens in education all the time. We have several columns for money coming in from a variety of sources. These sources like to know what was spent so we have to keep them separate. However, when the rules allow it, we can use one column to pay for another that has run out of money.
And I second that less than a thousand rounds per week is pretty mild. I keep varmit populations in check at the family ranch. And I shoot at paper and metal targets for fun. This year I hope to bag my first deer, elk, and bear. Heck, my habit of using a goodly amount of ammo is even recorded on the web in the range report of the last .22 shoot I attended. I was using my Marlin rifle at 500 yds. It took a few rounds to make the metal ring that far away. And I managed to do it a satisfactory number of times. However, I need to mention that a young boy got it on his first shot.

I think this is easily explained by a screw-up on the FBO page. There is no “Western Acquisition Division” within the National Weather Service, but there is one within NOAA. That office appear to handle contracting for multiple NOAA agencies, including NWS and NMFS. The ammo is obviously being shipped to various law enforcement offices at NMFS if one reads the entire FBO notice.
Link to contact info for the NOAA acquisition offices, including the now-infamous Western Acquisition Division:
http://www.ago.noaa.gov/ago/contact_us.cfm
I was able to deduce all of this with about five minutes on Google. Too bad Matt Drudge and Alex Jones don’t have similar skills, but that wouldn’t get them any eyeballs and ad clicks.
Regarding JHPs, they’re less likely to ricochet as a solid body off metal surfaces and become a danger to the shooter or those not targeted. That’s generally a benefit to an LEO.

@exfedagent:
True, when I first heard this story, the numbers did not seem that great. Heck the number of rounds in one purchase looked like my monthly ammo usage.
But perhaps *you* ought to rethink this is a bit. “It’s a great job.” does not give any of us plebes the warm fuzzies about this purchase. You know, this cop loved his job, too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlMe-vWC5nk
There was a time when even *FBI* agents were *not armed* in the execution of their duties and had to ask a local officer to arrest someone when it needed to be done.
I suggest that we return to that model. There are at least *90* federal agency that are armed. Including the Department of Education. And people wonder why they hear complaints about the US becoming a police state.
There is far to much power in our federal government that was never intended by the founding generation. Return the power to the states, and we won’t have a problem.
This may be routine for you, but NWS apparently has gotten away with it in the past without the public noticing. The internet has changed that. Public officials haven’t gotten used to the attention and constantly cry “this is routine!” Well, the gig’s up. We’re onto you, now, and after a few more election cycles, expect to see the dismantling of the federal government institutions you hold so dear, institutions the founding generation would not countenance.
Vince Cefalu comes to mind. He’s brave in the sense that he has exposed corruption in the ATF and been an outspoken critic of Operation Fast and Furious. But in one interview he call the ATF “the Agency I love” that performs an “important and necessary function.” Made me wanna puke. Similar to this. The Lacey act needs to go and the NWS should *not* be armed on the job. Ever.

UPDATE, 1:07 p.m.: NOAA spokesman Scott Smullen emailed the following statement, clarifying the ammunition order is for fisheries law enforcement, as we suspected:
Due to a clerical error in the federal business vendor process, a solicitation for ammunition and targets for the NOAA Fisheries Office of Law Enforcement mistakenly identified NOAA’s National Weather Service as the requesting office. The error is being fixed and will soon appear correctly in the electronic federal bidding system. The ammunition is standard issue for many law enforcement agencies and it will be used by 63 NOAA enforcement agents in their twice annual target qualifications and training.
==============
Why target practice with hollow point, rather than wad cutters?

From ron in austin on August 14, 2012 at 10:01 am:

Isn’t it a good idea to train with the exact ammo you will be using?

It’s a good idea to train. Learn the skills to get on the target, then to hit where you want to on the target.
If you’re using a proper hold, aiming center of mass, and you’re worried that different ammo will make the bullet go too high or low and you’ll miss, you’re too far away for a handgun IMO.
When using different bullet styles, match the bullet weight very closely and the muzzle velocity reasonably closely. Then you’re matching the amount of recoil so the different ammo will “feel” the same. For semi-automatics it’s a check on reliable functioning, as they need a minimum of recoil to operate but too much causes battering of surfaces and possible malfunction.
With those matched, the starting part of the projectile trajectory should be matched. Different bullet shapes will affect the ending part of the trajectory, as different amounts of energy will be lost, resulting in different amounts of bullet “drop”. Again, if you’re far enough away that you’re worried about that, you’re too far away for a handgun. Mainly because it’s harder to get the horizontal positioning right at those distances. On a human-like target, if you aim for center of mass, like the bottom of the rib cage, and hit the shoulder or the leg instead, it’s still a disabling hit. That amount of difference right or left means a miss instead. My experience may be limited, but I have found and read many times how it’s easier to screw up sideways.
When you are “elite” enough that you want to and expect to make headshots consistently, then worry about using the same ammo always.

Too funny. A primitive and ineffective way to do cloud bursting. Reminds me of the Kate Bush song

on another note a pro-skeptic article went up on the Reg
Arctic ICE PANIC sparked by half-baked sat data!
Did someone just jump the gun?
By Andrew Orlowski

Clearly the NSW seeks maximum stopping power when dealing with CAGW climate skeptics.

I believe if you look into it you’ll find that virtually all federal armed agents carry the .40 S&W as their standard sidearm (FBI, CIA, DEA, ICE, Federal Marshals, etc.). It’s a matter of standardization. Most police officers carry .40 S&W these days as well. I haven’t seen a cop with a revolver in probably 20 years (and it was a .41 Magnum). I don’t remember how long ago it was…maybe 3 decades ago…..most of the FBI carried the venerable 9mm. The 9mm is an amazing round in terms of energy, velocity, relatively mild recoil, and extremely efficient use of materials (i.e. brass and lead). Both the 9mm and the .45 ACP were developed over 100 years ago. They were both designed as man killers and not for hunting. There were two schools of thought at the time. The 9mm sent a smaller, lighter projectile downrange at greater velocity with high penetration. It also allowed greater magazine capacity. On the other hand, the .45 ACP delivered a larger, much heavier, slower round downrange with far more kinetic energy (i.e. “knock down” power). But it is also associated with a more robust recoil.. John Browning was onto to something when developed the .45 ACP. Most handgun engagement occur at a range of less than 30 yards. If you hit a human in the shoulder with a .45 ACP they WILL fall down. A 9mm might just pass through without disabling the “bad guy.” The US military still issued the .45 ACP 1911 pistol until just about 20 years ago or so and then switched to the newer, more potent, lighter 9mm with far greater magazine capacity and lighter recoil. Target reacquisition after the first shot it critical in a gun fight.
The FBI commissioned the development of a new round to replace the 9mm for their agents. There were a couple of incidents where they shot and hit perps who didn’t fall down but kept shooting back. They decided they needed more knock down power in a semi-auto. Actually a .357 magnum revolver would have done the trick but they’re a bit bulkier, have more recoil and have to be reloaded after 6 shots. The 10mm auto and the .45 ACP had too much recoil for smaller agents and many female agents. Two new rounds were developed, the .40 S&W and one other I can’t recall (.41 action express?). In the end the .40 S&W won out. I reload both 9mm and .40 S&W. The ..40 S&W is basically a slightly beefed 9mm. Case dimensions are virtually the same except the 40 is 1mm wider. It performs much like the time tested 9mm except it sends a significantly heavier projectile downrange faster than a .45 ACP but slower than a 9mm. It’s only slightly larger and heaver than a 9mm and the recoil is only moderately greater. It delivers more kinetic energy on target and can be loaded in high capacity magazines. Soon just about every armed federal agency had switched over to the .40 S&W (as has a lot of law enforcement). But the .40 S&W remains a man killer. It is completely unacceptable for game. It’s a personal defense law enforcement round.
I load and reload my own ammo with Hornady JHP (XTP) to medium to high charges. When I practice, I shoot the same round as I would carry. It has to do with muscle memory. When I go plinking I shoot the cheap stuff. think a lot of cops (who don’t buy their own ammo) also train with what they carry.on duty.. So huge government orders of one particular round is not too surprising, nor is it that they ordered .40 S&W. That it would go to the NWS is the big question. But hell, it seems like every bureaucrat wants to be armed these days (the IRS, the Dept of Education, etc.).

Re: .40 cal not so good for bears… true…, but significantly better than bells.

Btw, in case nobody has noticed, there’s a lot of very big cons, and druggies running around loose who make a habit of wearing kevlar. A .40 won’t even tickle them.

The comments about not stocking multiple types of ammo are (you should excuse the expression) dead on. What makes sense for an individual to do in switching between FMJ and HP does not necessarily make sense for govt procurement, inventory tracking, issuing, etc. Moreover govt personnel get much less range time than private shooters, so authentic muscle memory with the carry ammo is really critical to make their limited training time valuable. I also train sometimes with HP, because I don’t get to train as often as I’d like and if I ever need to self-defend I intend to be *effective* at it, despite being a 60 yr old woman.
Comments about numbers of targets vs. rounds ammo don’t take into account the likelihood that they have targets in stock and are just topping up – not to mention that the ammo being purchased might be for carry rather than for practice. Really, guys …..
BTW, MPs sometimes carry the higher caliber pistols, too, despite the NATO 9mm standard for most troops who carry sidearms. FWIW

Thanks Anthony – if not a typo – maybe a possible preparation for upcoming super solar storm/grid failure ?

Oops – just read the updated notice. Unless that was a cover up – I rescind my last comment. Thanks ! ;-

@ JonasM says:
August 14, 2012 at 6:58 pm
Curiousgeorge says:
August 14, 2012 at 3:52 pm
Btw, in case nobody has noticed, there’s a lot of very big cons, and druggies running around loose who make a habit of wearing kevlar. A .40 won’t even tickle them.
Actually, based on conversations with some law enforcement folks I know, only in Hollywood does body armor allow someone to take a hit and barely notice. In reality, even a 9mm hit is likely to break a rib. Taking a hit on your armor is similar to being hit with a baseball bat – about 350 pounds of force if I remember the number correctly.
Wow – this is NOT your usual WUWT conversation~ 🙂
*****************************************************************
No, it sure isn’t. Refreshing change, imho. 🙂
RE: getting shot – I recall a certain shootout in LA a few years ago, in which a couple bad guys took several shots and kept on ticking and shooting back. I believe they had doubled up on the kevlar; but in any event you can put a bullet in a man’s heart and if he’s in reasonably good physical condition and/or pumped up on adrenaline, pcp, meth, or any of a dozen designer drugs, he’ll still be functional enough to kill you for about 15 seconds. A very long time in a gunfight (take it from a retired combat Marine).
That is one of the reasons the 1911 .45 was developed. The .38’s used in the Philippines insurrection at the start of the last century were not stopping the natives. Something powerful enough to knock a big man down was required. A 38, 9mm, or .40 just won’t do that.

Dr. Dave says: “The 9mm is an amazing round in terms of energy, velocity, relatively mild recoil, and extremely efficient use of materials (i.e. brass and lead).”
Don’t you mean an amazing round in terms of lacking energy? 🙂
Dr. Dave says: “Both the 9mm and the .45 ACP were developed over 100 years ago. They were both designed as man killers and not for hunting.”
If true, then based on shootings and autopsies the 9mm was a failure. The .45 ACP is known as 1-shot man stopper, the 9mm is not. Paraphrasing: When a man with a 9mm meets a man with a .45, the man with a 9mm will be ‘the’ dead man.

I have a Marlin lever action .35 Remington. The tube uses either round nose or sharp rubber tip bullets. The round nose are cheap, the rubber tips expensive. However, if I want to target in my gun in any way that is accurate for when I need it to be accurate, I use the expensive rounds. Yes it seems a waste of ammo, but if I want a kill shot instead of a wounded animal hiding in the bushes, I’ll use the expensive ammo to target in my rifle.

“Paranoia is the fear of unreal wierdos. Who has time for unreal wierdos when there are so many real ones running around?”
Odd Bodkins

[snip -over the top]

So ammunition banned by the Geneva Convention is OK for US Federal agencies for use against their own population, who else is it for use against?
Or perhaps they are fed up with Hansen are on the war path.

John Marshall says:
August 15, 2012 at 2:49 am
So ammunition banned by the Geneva Convention is OK for US Federal agencies for use against their own population, who else is it for use against?
Or perhaps they are fed up with Hansen are on the war path.
Its not so much about conventions, as the measured application of force. A major mandated issue for the LEO in an urban firefight is where the misses go. A frangible bullet gives a little satisfaction that you might not take out 3 kids in two apartments as well, as well as having the effect of bringing the issue to a close more quickly. With regard to conventions, in “traditional” battlefield war, casualties are a given. A military hardpoint will either kill you or incapacitate you, while the HP makes a mess to treat (yeah, yeah). In the urban fight, the perp has the option of not escalating in the first place – engaging in a firefight is not his sworn duty. So, choices as to the outcome.

Eugene S Conlin,
Russian killer squirrel squads are far more dangerous:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/4489792.stm ”
The interesting thing in this article are the words “although scientists are sceptical. ” in a BBC report.
Scientists sceptical? But the model clearly shows Russia’s inner city squirrels are gang-centric.

Bob, Nobody that I know practices with hollow-points except to zero in for the ammo they will be using on duty. It’s not only much more expensive but it’s simply a waste. Your use of .22 hollow-points is a terrible comparison. They are cheap. But good hollow-point self-defense ammo in .40 can cost $20 for 20 rounds – a buck a shot! You don’t practice with ammo like that much. Well, unless you are the government and like to waste taxpayer money, of course.

Paul,
The .45 you belittle (.45 long colt or, more accurately simply .45 Colt) is most definitely NOT a slouch. You are confusing the original loads which were black powder or the similar loads that cowboy action shooters use. But modern .45 Long Colt ammunition can be loaded to exceed the power of .44 magnum ammunition in the right gun. The original Colt SSA could not handle that but many modern guns can including many Ruger “cowboy” guns. I have a old model Ruger Vaquero in .45LC that can handle anything you put in it. Also, you are incorrect about them being dangerous to carry. Most modern “cowboy” guns have transfer bar safeties or similiar devices that allow them to be carried will all chambers loaded safely just like modern double-action revolvers
You should get your facts straight.

Now Social Security Administration is confirmed buying 174,000 rounds of .357 Sig hollow point rounds.
Why?

Bob says:
August 15, 2012 at 9:52 am
Paul,
The .45 you belittle (.45 long colt or, more accurately simply .45 Colt) is most definitely NOT a slouch. You are confusing the original loads which were black powder or the similar loads that cowboy action shooters use. But modern .45 Long Colt ammunition can be loaded to exceed the power of .44 magnum ammunition in the right gun. The original Colt SSA could not handle that but many modern guns can including many Ruger “cowboy” guns. I have a old model Ruger Vaquero in .45LC that can handle anything you put in it. Also, you are incorrect about them being dangerous to carry. Most modern “cowboy” guns have transfer bar safeties or similiar devices that allow them to be carried will all chambers loaded safely just like modern double-action revolvers
You should get your facts straight.
The only thing I should have gotten straight, was I was commenting on the 45ACP in a 1911A1 type frame, not all the weird and wonderful .45./.44 cowboy guns. Rarely are any of those carried on government service, with the possible exception of the modern big bores for park service in the US. I stand by what I said about the .45ACP, relative to more modern service carry firearms. I don’t discuss what if any firearms I possess on the internet, but I will say I have more than a nodding acquaintance with most all of them being discussed…
Nobody is seriously suggesting bear hunting with a .40S&W. In fact, up here, nobody seriously suggests bear hunting with any pistol, even if it were legal, which its not. But if the situation warranted, I’d probably do more with the .40 then just throw it at him, even if the outcome doesn’t change much.

Former Forecaster,
Bullets for the Social Security Admin. is bizarre to me. And why .357 hollow points? I also ask, what is going on?
Link to story:
http://www.businessinsider.com/why-does-the-social-security-administration-need-174000-rounds-of-ammunition-2012-8

Social Security?
Guess they have to protect that lockbox!
/sarc
This is pretty creepy.