Via the GWPF, the great war of flying carbon credits appears to be massing on the border.
China has warned the European Union to abandon its controversial carbon tax on airlines or risk provoking a global trade war.
Adding weight to the warning, an industry insider told the Financial Times that the Chinese government was seriously considering measures to hit back at the EU if it insists on charging international airlines for their carbon emissions.
In a case initiated by US airlines, the European Court of Justice ruled on Wednesday that the EU’s carbon emissions trading scheme did not infringe on the sovereignty of other nations, and that it was compatible with international law. The change is set to go into effect from January 1.
Chinese airlines have also been preparing an legal challenge in Europe and they still plan to proceed with it, but Chai Haibo, deputy secretary general of the China Air Transport Association, conceded that the European ruling complicated matters as it means they will need to find an alternative reason to challenge the law.
Even if court action fails, Mr Chai was optimistic that concerted global pressure could yet persuade the EU to repeal its law. In the short term, he called on Brussels to delay implementation in light of the intense international outcry that it has provoked.
“Except for the EU, no countries support this,” he said.
He added that several Chinese government departments in Beijing were in the midst of researching possible counter-measures. Chinese airline officials have said before that they might refuse to pay the carbon tax, raising the prospect of a drawn-out legal fight.
The Chinese government has largely stayed on the sidelines of the spat, letting the airlines speak for themselves. In a sign that the industry dispute is escalating to a diplomatic concern, a Chinese foreign ministry spokesman on Thursday called the EU plan “unilateral” and said it should be consulting other countries including China.
Xinhua, the state-owned news agency often used by the government to deliver blunter messages, was more direct.
“This is a trade barrier in the name of environmental protection, and it constitutes an attack on the interests of travellers and the international aviation industry,” it said in an editorial. “It will be difficult to avoid a trade war focused on a ‘carbon tax’ for airlines.”
Well done China and any other countries that are prepared to stand up to this outrageous political nonsense from the unelected technocrats of Brussels.
This is both a cynical money grab by the EU and also an attempt to garner favour in the left-wing media for its incompetent handling of the euro crisis.
Well well. Cancel that European vacation for next summer. Rio or Machu Pichu or Ho Chi Minh City look interesting. And forget about British Airways and Lufthansa, fly American or Canadian or Singapore Airlines.
How many holes can these people stand in their feet before they completely collapse?
Well, next thing you know, there will be world mandated health care…………………..
This could get interesting particularly if other non-european nations join China’s side. They could cause a lot of tension internally in Europe by say refusing to fly into Paris or Berlin making folk destined for those locations to add another transit point to their journey. They would soon have one Euro country kicking up internally. Divide and conquer. Still I smile when reading China complain about the unfairness of trade protectionism. Pot calling the kettle black wouldn’t you say?
I’m also sure that China is intelligent enough to already know that “global warming” is only a another marxist lie! After all, they have been marxist long enough to realize that by now, have’nt they? Isn’t it scarry to know that we’re the only idiots in the world to believe it? Do you realize that they(Government Scientists) even rationalized that the reason that the ocean temperature dropped a degree last year also is part of global warming? That’s what our CIA loves bout marxism, lying actually is a right written in it’s marxist manifesto, don’t you know?
Could be bad for AirBus if China decides to cancel orders in retaliation, and good for Boeing.
This feels strange, I’m rooting for mainland China vs Europe.
Maybe someone should investigate returning a Yankee Clipper back into service between the US East Cost and Europe as carbon-free transport.
Pretty bad for Airbus sales…..
Boeing will just have to fly all the folk to the climate conferences!
This is extremely poorly timed as it comes at a time when the European Central Bank is hoping that China will purchase European Euro bonds.
Wow, I had seen this airline thing, but didn’t think about the Chinese leading a rebellion. I already knew our milquetoast American government wouldn’t take the appropriate action. The only way to stop this would be for the US, Canada, Japan, and China to retaliate by limiting European airline access to their airspace, or by issuing punitive landing and ATC fees on European carriers.
Of course this sort of action led to the second dip in the Great Depression that turned what would have been a severe recession and market correction into the long drawn out mess it was. I wonder if these watermelons really are intent on the destruction of the economies of the world as a way to usher in world wide socialism.
Thanks China – the EU has been trying to dictate to the rest of the world and finally got called on their own foolishness by the world’s big gun itself – China. And the EU don’t want to mess with China – after all it was China the EU was begging to bail out their sorry socialists butts. The socialists have finally run out of other people’s money.
LMAO – What a great Christmas – the EU is flat broke! Who said there was no GOD? And exactly in what universe was that EU judge who ruled their laws don’t infringe on other nations – how about other nation’s airlines judge? The EU is not asking for a trade war – the EU is DEMANDING a trade war they can’t ever hope to win. A trade war when the EU is flat BROKE? Has anyone over in that socialists dog pound got a functioning brain cell still active?
Could make getting tickets for the Olympic a lot easier!
I suspect the UK might relax the rules for competitors flying in, or it could be a plan to enable team GB to sweep the board.
I remember the boycotts of Russia and the LAGames. Perhaps the Chinese might use the same channel.
Hmmm. So Norway, Switzerland, Moroco, Algeria etc are not members. Airlines are mobile. Can anyone envision an airline hub in Oslo or Zurich instead of London or Frankfurt? Does it matter to UPS or FedEX if they make an non-EU nation a hub and distribute from there? Business is highly mobile. The EU must think they live in a vacuum. Oh wait, nature abhors a vacuum according to my physics books. The EU will therefore be sucked down the drain. (Sorry, used to design vacuum sewer systems in another incarnation.)
Think of that. China and the EU should be besties – Barroso is a Maoist after all.
Yea for China!
Understand that 12 of the 14 Politburo heads (Central Committee) are ENGINEERS.
When I found that out, 2 years ago, I said, “Hum, time to re-evaluate being a COMMIE!”.
Max
Wayne Delbeke says:
December 22, 2011 at 2:16 pm
Norway is a member of the so called EU economic zone or something. That means that we accept all regulations from EU, but have no saying in EU. Funny situation, dont you think?
If only they’d free Tibet I’d actually like the Chinese
Even the commies don’t want to go along with this. I guess communism only works if other people have to pay for it, huh?
Beesaman says:
December 22, 2011 at 2:08 pm
“Pretty bad for Airbus sales…..
Boeing will just have to fly all the folk to the climate conferences!”
Airbus cares little whether a carrier makes a profit.
The EU bully boys and girls are at it again. They are a royal pain in the butt with their busybody interface and UN style socialism that has caused grief around the world. I can’t wait for the coming meltdown and demise of the EU.
Nigel Farage, the leader of Ukip, said: “With this kind of stealth taxes, Eurosceptics across Europe will take up the slogan ‘no taxation without representation’.” This isn’t about concern for the climate, it’s about money!
In the meantime watch Nigel Farage the only sane MPP from the UK, tell the mandarins where to off in the EU parliament, it’s a delight to see them cringe!
Farage warns the UK against an “economic prison” similar to the one now faced by the Greek people, whose lives are now falling under the control of their creditors: the European Union, the International Monetary Fund and the European Central Bank.
“The biggest threat we face now in Europe is to keep countries like Greece, Portugal, Ireland – even Spain and Italy – trapped inside an economic prison, stripped of their democracy. The governments of Italy and Greece were removed by these bully-boys in Brussels. The bigger threat for them is to stay and die a long economic death,” said Farage.
Nigel Farage: Wake up EU to the misery you’re inflicting on millions!
The Game is Up, The EURO is Finished! Spain & Portugal Nigel Farage Speaks Out
Nigel Farage the sane voice from the EU
Nigel Farage touches quite a few nerves in the EU Parliament
madhouseGreat Speeches
One way to flip this around is for non-EU countries is to reduce taxes (fuel, landing fees etc) for non-EU airlines.
One way to flip this around is for non-EU countries to reduce taxes (fuel, landing fees etc) for non-EU airlines.
Are there that many flights from China to Europe that they are upset about this?
Are they really just worried about Europe moving towards applying carbon tariffs on Chinese imports?
Dear Lord – if there was EVER a time to listen to the British – that time is NOW
This is a war on travel,they want to take it away and they are also using agenda 21 and the TSA is already establishing check points all over the USA.Just look at the map and see how much will be no go zones. http://www.robodoon.com/global_un_agenda_21.htm
Too bad the USA cannot lift its limp wrist to defend free trade against the EU statist bureaucrats and ecoloons. Thank goodness that China has the energy and muscle to stand up for free trade.
My, how things change! Or as some Chinese might ask: “Is it the saint dreaming of the butterfly or the butterfly dreaming of the saint?”
This short video explains what the UN has in store for the USA and the world.You wont be allowed in any of the red zones. http://www.takingliberty.us/Narrations/usa/usa/player.html
Dave says:
I’m liking this Nigel dude big time. He don’t mind kicking some EU butt on a regular basis. God, the EU lot must hate this guy standing up to give a speech.
I think that the EU will soon learn the golden rule of business, those who have the gold make the rules. Also, did anyone notice that several months ago Richard Branson’s Virgin Enterprises moved their corporate HQ to Switzerland. How long will it be til we see a Geneva Hub for them?
I never would have imagined saying this when I was younger but…GO CHINA!
LarryD says:
December 22, 2011 at 2:07 pm
This feels strange, I’m rooting for mainland China vs Europe.
Yeah, me too.
This may become one of those “turning points” in history.
Victor Barney says:
December 22, 2011 at 1:54 pm
I’m also sure that China is intelligent enough to already know that “global warming” is only a another marxist lie! After all, they have been marxist long enough to realize that by now, have’nt they?
======================================================
They’ve laughing at the “global warming” nutters the entire time. The only time they make noise about it is when they think their gravy train might halt. Remember, we’ve been paying them to build their own generation plants, and they’ve all but cornered the ‘sun catcher’ market. The REE that goes into our electric cars and metallic pinwheels also comes from China. This insanity has done nothing but profit China and expand their industrial base. Given that Australia has basically ensured an endless supply of coal to China…… the irony would almost be humorous.
For those slow on the uptake, the actions and policies set forth by the GW nutters has increased CO2 emissions. And, were it not for the recession the nutters helped cause, they would have increased it much more. A proud day for communists world wide.
Why are people worshiping the Chinese government?
This is old news led by the major airlines.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100125720/more-bad-news-for-the-anti-energy-green-greed-brigade/
The natural consequence of the European destination airline carbon tax is it will be more expensive to fly to Europe. Higher costs, less tourists, less jobs. There is a natural balance of how much tourists have to spend versus the cost of the trip.
There is also a natural balance as to how much countries can raise in taxes versus how much a country can spend on infrastructure and services.
It appears the Europeans are having a team race to bottom. It will be interesting to see at which point in time, the general population starts to question the extreme AGW boondoggle and then looks for scape goats.
Latitude says:
December 22, 2011 at 1:46 pm
Now that I have my mandated health insurance, when will I get my mandated life insurance?
The Europeans are always pulling crap like this. I’m glad someone besides us little people stand up to them. I think a trade war is exactly what is needed. I for one have refused to purchase anything from Europe if i can avoid it. Think French wine and German cars for example. I figure it they don’t want Canadian seal pelts or our Alberta oil, Canadians should respond in kind. I think we simply need to respond to them by not flying to any European destinations. Stay home and keep our money in North America. Maybe we should think twice or three times before buying any of their bonds.
Just to put this into perspective. It is of course an attempt by the EU to raise tax revenue, using the CAGW pseudoscience (for which they paid, and the CAGW pseudoscientists have delivered the goods).
But still, even with this tax, air travel will still be far cheaper than it was when every tiny European nation had their national public airline monopoly.
The European bureaucrats are scraping the bottom of the barrel; they have just allowed the ECB to flood the banking system with another 450 bn EUR; 3 year loans for 1 % interest rate. This is probably to force the TARGET2 system back into balance (where the ECB currently owes Germany 350bn EUR – this imbalance grows with 150bn EUR a year. The imbalance is caused by the PIGS printing Euros to go on paying their own bloated bureaucracies.).
They are desperate to finally make some money from the long prepared CAGW scam.
Similarly, the powerless EU parliament has just voted to withhold a lot of carbon credits from the market to stabilize the Carbon Credit prize. The vote serves only as recommendation to the Politkommissars, but the carbon credit prize reacted positively. Made a 40% jump or so yesterday and falls back slightly now.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=PNXCSPT2:IND
Owen in Georgia says….
“The only way to stop this would be for the US, Canada, Japan, and China to retaliate by limiting European airline access to their airspace, or by issuing punitive landing and ATC fees on European carriers.”
Exactly. I would like to see us announce that all European airline access will be banned until the EU caves 100% on this.
Max Hugoson says:
December 22, 2011 at 2:22 pm
Understand that 12 of the 14 Politburo heads (Central Committee) are ENGINEERS.
Most politicians in the US are lawyers. Compare their approach to problems.
1. USA (today) = pass a law, add a tax.
2. China = fix the problem.
Robert in Calgary says:
December 22, 2011 at 5:24 pm
Exactly. I would like to see us announce that all European airline access will be banned until the EU caves 100% on this.
The Chinese will target the investments of the EU leadership. Look to see what stocks the EU leaders hold, and drive down the prices. They did this with Coca-Cola years back and the US backed off overnight.
Sanctions are no big deal to any government official. They will claim it is a matter of principal – which in reality means sanctions only hurt the poor – never the officials involved. Empty the official’s bank accounts if you want to make a difference and they will come to the table the same day – claiming it was all a misunderstanding..
@wayne – have you ever flown into Oslo? vs Paris, London, Frankfurt etc?
You could drop Oslo airport into any one of those, close your eyes, turn around three times and not find it again for a week.
I suggest England opt out of this insanity, take all the flights destined for Europe, and let those heading to the mainland use rowboats to cross the Channel. (I wouldn’t let them drive–all that CO2 coming from the Chunnels would be taboo!)
Babsy says:
December 22, 2011 at 5:06 pm
The government has already taken care of that–it’s call the estate tax, and instead of getting an end of life benefit, you get to contribute. A bunch.
British Airline calling China: Which runway please. China response: Who are you – only approve airlines may land.
The Greenpeace parrot working for the BBC (Richard Black) has written a sweet ‘blame the USA’ piece on this while conveniently ignoring China – who the Watermelons all seem to love.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16306606
You really need to read this propaganda piece to believe it.
These are the idiots that have drank the green cool-aid and destroyed their own economies, borrowed until nobody will lend them more money, and are now trying to steal what they can from others. We should do everything we can to speed up their demise and collapse.
Dirk – just to put this into perspective…… I AGREE with you.
Gone will be the days of hopping on an airplane and flying off to exotic and not so exotic locations if the EU has its way. So sorry Frank, none of us will be able to afford it.
http://justmeint.wordpress.com/2011/12/23/come-fly-with-me/
Good on you China! Another message to the EU that they should stop this carbon madness, dissolve the EU parliament and get on with business. In stead of running like headless chickens after the likes of Al Gore and those other fraudulent green hippies.
Theo Goodwin says:
December 22, 2011 at 3:19 pm
“Too bad the USA cannot lift its limp wrist to defend free trade against the EU statist bureaucrats and ecoloons. Thank goodness that China has the energy and muscle to stand up for free trade.”
Theo, according to the UK papers this a.m., Hilary Clinton has been on the phone to the E.U.!
Thank you China for standing up to what may turn out to be the greatest tax hoodwink imposed on the “man in the street” namely carbon taxes. Will all these taxes be refunded if it turns out that the climate “cook up” is incorrect? Here in Switzerland we have had the best early winter snowfall in years.
Believe India has also led the international airline outrage against this new EU attempt at wealth re-distribution.
http://www.livemint.com/2011/12/18224636/India-asks-its-airlines-not-to.html
Unfortunately it is not the rest of the world against the EU. In a recent ICAO declaration objecting to this tax in Montreal, Australia abstained from the vote.
And Climate Minister Combet has been particularly quiet on the issue despite the strong objections from the US and most other countries outside Europe.
I think Combet knows that if the EU cave in on this it has grave implications for the Australian Labor Government’s carbon tax. I would also like to know where QANTAS stand. They have just had a stoush with the government over union rolling stoppages when the CEO stood down the whole workforce so I do not think the Government would like another conflict with them.
I only hope the other airlines stick together and are backed by their respective governments on this one as the outcome is entirely unpredictable if the EU does not budge. But if the EU do cave in, it will not only make Combet’s carbon tax look all the more ridiculous but could also herald the end of the EU ETS.
I’ve said for years that the death of the CAGW enterprise would not be the triumph of science over science fiction, but the cold hard economic reality of any serious attempt to mitigate through CO2 emission restrictions.
On the one hand, I feel vindicated. On the other hand, saddened.
But in between my two hands is a head, shaking in disbelief with mouth wide open in silent shock.
China? Champion of free enterprise?
This CAGW stuff is more complicated that I thought. It causes cold snaps due to warming, droughts due to increased precipitation, increased flooding due to desertification, and communists to embrace free enterprise. There can be no other explanation, the science is settled.
Many of WUWT’s leaders will not be familiar with the term eurosclerosis, but it sums up the situation in the European Union today. This poorly thought out tax on international airlines is an example of this.
Esssentially eurosclerosis is the result of a very large and expensive bureaucratic ‘elite’ in Brussels dreaming up whatever rules, regulations and taxes they deem fit. No one is accountable for their actions, which usually completely ignore how the real world actually works.
Like ‘climate scientists’ who dream up unfounded scare stories to keep their comfortable jobs, the bureaucrats in Brussels dream up pointless and expensive rules and regulations in order to ‘justify’ their comfortable jobs.
Many left-leaning political parties in Europe have a philosophy of creating as much welfare dependency as possible, solely for the purposes of re-election. This factor, combined with the never-ending stream of idiotic directives and rules emanating from Brussels has almost bankrupted Europe, which not surprisingly has one of the lowest economic growth rates in the entire world.
Eurosclerosis is the hardening of economic arteries as a result of the inept actions of the bureaucratic and political ‘elite’. These carbon and airline taxes serve only to weaken the economies of Europe for no practical benefit whatsoever.
Perhaps the Chinese will be the ones to save Europe from its own self-inflicted economic lunacy. The threat of quickly selling a few hundred billion Euros of dodgy European government debt might do the trick.
Latitude, …by prescribing homeopathic remedies.
This makes me puke. I live in Japan on a *very* modest pension. Most of the rest of my family live in the UK. I visit rarely, much less than once per year, because the cost busts my budget.
My mother is 94 years old, very frail and ailing. I hope the stinking eurocrats responsible for this garbage are forced to choose between helping a family existential crisis and eating. Problem is, I don’t believe in miracles.
JDN2 says:
December 22, 2011 at 2:06 pm
Could be bad for AirBus if China decides to cancel orders in retaliation, and good for Boeing.
Looks like its already happening: China has just BLOCKED a multi-billion sale of Airbus airliners to a Hong Kong airline.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16305488
So Europe chooses THIS moment to wage economic war on the rest of the world together?! (What happened to the lessons of 1945??)
LarryD says:
December 22, 2011 at 2:07 pm
This feels strange, I’m rooting for mainland China vs Europe.
Hey Larry, I’m with you but this time applauding a Democrat. Never thought I would be rooting for Hillary Clinton but now I’m roaring “Go on Hillary, put the boot in!”.
Here’s a thought for WUWThatters to comment on. Why don’t the airlines just keep on flying. Simple as that. Don’t account for the emissions and don’t pay the tax, just keep on flying into the airports. What is the EU going to do? Seriously, what is it going to do?
The last thing that the EU wants is a trade war with China. Given China’s cheap labour they would win easily.
The obvious thing for the non-European airlines to do is carry on as normal and refuse to pay the tax.
Any attempt to enforce payment of the tax by the European authorities would lead to the sort of economic/political crisis which would make the events in the Eurozone of the past few months seem like a walk in the park.
Sometime soon, the lunacy of ‘climate change’ economics will have to come to an end; the sooner the better as far as I am concerned.
So for the benefit of us all, America, Canada, China etc. please tell the eurocrats exactly where to stuff their airline tax .
European ideals, or at least those expressed through its political and bureaucratic leadership are pathetic. How could they be otherwise, most members of this group have never had a real job, nor have most ever achieved anything practical. Unfortunately the losers in this idiotic game will be the ordinary people of Europe, those who still have drive and gumption now largely outnumbered by a mass enfeebled by the dependency culture assiduously cultivated by all European Union camp followers. This means no change will come until the whole lot collapses, an event that will finally force people to face up the realities brought about by their own indifference.
A trade war with China will certainly accelerate this process, after all China has no need of Europe, there is a world outside of the European bubble, one desperate for an improved standard of living, one they are fully entitled to. China can lead this explosion now that the old democracies of Europe (and perhaps the US) have decided on economic suicide. Frankly put, Europe has become an irrelevance, its misanthropic no growth message should be ignored, the way forward is to unleash the self interest that drives all economic effort. Onward humanity. Onward to better things than cooking over a dung fire or living in a mud hut. All people can enjoy a better life, they will achieve it if they have the chance.
Passengers? please.
Take a look at the big picture. Europe is one of the biggest importers of Chinese goods, this is an attempt to at import tax. Raise the price of Chinese goods and increase home manufacturing to ease the recession. Yea, lets see how thats going to work with major companies exporting to China from inside the EU, decision time for multi-nationals just how green are they?
They just can’t get any money into that Carbon Tax bank account…no matter what…..LOL
The USA has already challenged the EU ruling.
The EU was then upheld by the European Court of law??????????
What jurisdiction does the European Court of law have over WORLD affairs. How can they dictate to other countries without expecting a Backlash?
All I can say to the rest of the world is sorry, don’t bother coming to the EU countries, their Politicians are all going insane/senile.
Such is the madness of politicians, in the UK we now have several taxes on air tickets, all of them supposedly to “save the planet” by reducing “carbon emissions”. What this amounts to is in excuse to pile endless taxes on top of taxes on anyone needing to travel anywhere.
The EU carbon tax is about $20 per ticket, but this will rise to whatever they think they can get away with. The US has already threatened the EU with retaliatory action and now it looks like China will do the same.
Thanks to all those screaming watermelons and their “global warming” junk science, soon only the rich will be able to travel.
Not to worry, I’m sure the costs will be offset by this planning:
http://ec.europa.eu/energy/observatory/electricity/electricity_en.htm
“The Member States of the EU have agreed on an ambitious plan of building the biggest market of electricity, connecting more than 500 million consumers throughout the continent. The European Commission is fully committed to fostering this project.
A well functioning and competitive market is needed to satisfy the needs and expectations of the European citizens. It will in addition contribute to the policy response required to fight climate change and to secure our energy future.”
Couldn’t find a date for the racket described above 🙁
You ever see those boots they put on the car wheels of people who won’t pay their parking tickets? I don’t believe they literally have those for jumbo jets, but that’s what the EU would do — simply start impounding $100 million dollar aircraft until the offending airline paid up.
@ Lord Beaverbrook: The bulk of imported goods arrives by ship or even by train (the Transsiberian). This crazy EU scheme targets passengers, following the “logic” that if the cost of air travel goes up passenger numbers will go down. These bureaucrats are hypocrits (as are the CAGW activists and “scientists”) who happily clock up extensive air mileage to meetings in exotic places, where they dream up new instruments to strangle their citizens. It is not funny nowadays to live within the EU. Saddest of all, the citizens over here seem all too ready to blame all misery on each other, following the horrible patterns of the past. Witness the howling in my country, Germany, when the Brits pulled out of some of the futile €uro rescue schemes.
It’s hard to say. Most of these people seem to believe you can increase the tax on something without affecting the consumption. They have no clue that increased taxes have an effect on consumption and they will genuinely be surprised when people change their behavior and the EU doesn’t collect the projected amount of taxes. They will then try to increase the taxes. After air travel becomes unaffordable for most people, they will add a subsidy. The idea that you tax something more when you want less of it is foreign to them.
On the other hand, you may be right. The same people will advocate increasing fuel taxes in order to decrease gasoline consumption. So they simultaneously believe increasing taxes on capital, income, retail sales, investment, etc., won’t affect people’s economic behavior, but taxes on carbon will.
Don’t believe me? Just consider the Obama economic program.
davidmhoffer says:
December 22, 2011 at 10:12 pm
“This CAGW stuff is more complicated that I thought. It causes cold snaps due to warming, droughts due to increased precipitation, increased flooding due to desertification, and communists to embrace free enterprise.”
Yes, you are right. The world is a confusing place now. Everything is sort of…opposite. Maybe we have all been transferred into a Salvador Dalian parallell universe, without noticing it?
The chance of meeting a rational person from India or China, rather than from the EU,US or UK is growing by the hour.
kwik says:
December 22, 2011 at 2:23 pm
Wayne Delbeke says:
December 22, 2011 at 2:16 pm
Norway is a member of the so called EU economic zone or something. That means that we accept all regulations from EU, but have no saying in EU. Funny situation, dont you think?
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
But Norway has control of its boarders and does not have to share all its North Sea OIl with Europe.
Philip Peake says:
December 22, 2011 at 7:07 pm
@wayne – have you ever flown into Oslo? vs Paris, London, Frankfurt etc?
You could drop Oslo airport into any one of those, close your eyes, turn around three times and not find it again for a week.
////////////////////////////////////////////////
In the 80s/early90s Oslo use to have a lovely airport (Fornebu). It was about 10 minute taxi journey (taxi lane all the way and only 1 traffic light) from the centre of Oslo. It had about 7 or 8 departure gates all in one hall. You could leave the office 25 minutes before the flight was due to depart, catch a taxi check in and board the plane. Business travel was never easier. I lament the loss of that airport.
Some commentators give the impression that they think that this tax is limited to passenger travel. As far as I know it is not. It pertains to all air travel whatever its purpose, eg., trade, mail etc. It is definitely a tax on trade and it is easy to see why some countries are justly concerned by it.
As regards passenger air travel this is not the only green tax. It is yet one more tax on top of other green taxes and these taxes together make up a large percentage of the costs of shorthaul air travel. A family of 4 or 5 are now finding it very expensive to go on holiday. Crazy really since Greece and Spain which rely heavily on the tourist market will lose out and they are already in enough financial problems without their main form of trade revenue being further taxed out of existence. Do these EEC technocrats know what they are doing. Silly question, of course they don’t and that is why the EEC is in such a mess and why none of them seem to come up with any workable solution to the present fnancial crisis.
Darren Parker says:
December 22, 2011 at 2:24 pm
If only they’d free Tibet I’d actually like the Chinese
———-
I do, because they freed the Tibetan people from 1000 years of oppression and a pernicious ideology called lamaist buddhism. Perhaps you might like to look into it, and draw some parallels with the Gaia religion.
Major international carriers have decided to beat the rule by not landing. Instead they will issue parachutes to all passengers.
More Soylent Green;
I don’tY believe they literally have those for jumbo jets, but that’s what the EU would do — simply start impounding $100 million dollar aircraft until the offending airline paid up.>>>
Yeah, like that would work. Well, actually, in some cases it might. Let’s go through the reactions on a country by country basis.
United States, Barak Obama; Please give us our plane back. Pretty please?
Russia, Vladimir Putin; We just shut off the natural gas pipeline that supplies half of Europe. Let us know when you come to your senses.
North Korea, Kim/Generals; Give us our plane back or we will line up 5 million of our citizens and shoot them.
United Nations; Give us the plane back as required by international law under security council resolution 18,965 sections 3 through 10 or else we will shake our finger at you.
China; Give us the plane back or we’re calling in our loans.
Israel; We don’t know who stole that plane in the middle of the night and returned it to us, but we recognize that this is a breach of sovereignty and stand side by side with the free world doing everything we can to determine who could have pulled off such a blatant heist. We have some preliminary evidence to suggest that it was the same team that stole those three patrol frigates out of a harbour in France a number of years ago after we’d paid for them and France refused to deliver them. We will continue our investigation.
France; We surrender.
Canada; We don’t know who stole that plane in the middle of the night and returned it to us, but we thank them. No, our mutual defense agreement with Israel has nothing to do with it.
Iran; We’ve seized all the European embassies in Tehran along with their staff. Give us our plane back now. For the record, returning our plane does not set a precedent and we are under no obligation to return the American spy plane we have captured.
Saudi Arabia; Well, it was a year old, and I wanted a new one anyway.
Liberia; Uhm… well… itz not actually our plane, just our flag painted on it. No biggie.
United Arab Emirates; Well, it was a year old and I wanted a new one anyway.
Turkey; Give us our plane or we’ll join the EU.
Somalia; We have a plane? Where is it again?
India; That’s it. We’re signing a mutual defense pact with Israel.
Japan; As it is against the law in Japan for our army to be used as an army, we have decided to take no action of our own. It is not against the law however for us to have a mutual defense pact with another country. As it is not our interest to become involved in middle east politics, we have declined Israel’s offer in that regard. We have elected to instead pursue a mutual defense pact with Canada who has agreed to draw on resources at their disposal to assist us. The operation faces a slight delay while we find air traffic controllers who speak Yiddish.
Hello,
this is a member of the EU writing – I’m from Germany. I agree with all your comments and the article – but please have in mind that Europe is not the speaker for the European nations. We did not elect the people in Brussels, we have no right whatsoever to say something there. The sooner this nonsense stops, the better for all of us – if the Chinese show the way, let it be.
And you should have another thing in mind: All this happening is based on e gigantic fraud! CO2 has no measurable influence on our climate.
WHO’S GOING TO TELL BRUSSELS?! THE CHINESE?
Chris Frey – nonsense-scared inhabitant of the so called EU
davidmhoffer says:
December 23, 2011 at 10:14 am
Nice description of the nearby future, which has already started: The Chinese airlines calculated that the new regulations would cost them 125 million euro’s per year now, up to 500 million in 2020. According to the BBC, the Chinese government has blocked the purchase of Airbus planes by Hong Kong airlines worth several billion euro’s… Or how a few European bureaucrats and politicians are killing the European industry to keep the near bankrupt CO2 trading scheme alive…
And now you see both why the EU was formed and why it is so dangerous. It is big enough now to implement stuff like this which could never have been done with nation states with governments answerable to their electorates. I was happy to see the sceptics win the argument on CAGW but it doesn’t matter. That argument has long gone, this tax is for the billions that the EU needs to redistribute to climate victims. They really do not care about destroying Europe. Every self respecting Brit should vote UKIP as they are our only hope.
Its bad enough flying from the UK now, without adding more EU taxes on top.
The UK has already confirmed it will be increasing the PAX TAX again soon.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/air-passenger-duty/8923504/Autumn-Statement-2011-Air-Passenger-Duty-rise-confirmed.html
did I read somewhere NOT new news tho but still applicable, that private airplanes / jets were exempt from some of these taxes in the UK … so the rich don’t pay! sounds about right huh…… bleed the poorer classes and exempt the wealthier ones! Merry Christmas Scrooge
http://www.clickgreen.org.uk/research/data/121148-investigation-reveals-private-jets-are-exempt-from-carbon-passenger-tax.html
Thomas U. says:
December 23, 2011 at 7:48 am
“Witness the howling in my country, Germany, when the Brits pulled out of some of the futile €uro rescue schemes.”
Thomas, I’m German as well. The media howled, sure. Everybody on the streets sympathizes with the Brits, on the other hand. Stop paying attention to the useless Quislings in our media.
Pretty darned sad when we support China over our own governments.
Are there any adults left in the west?
Peter Miller says:
December 22, 2011 at 11:41 pm
“Eurosclerosis” is just about the right description of it. I hope the Chinese stop buying those European government bonds being sold by ECB and other governments in Europe, and impose whatever trade retaliation they can on the EU, for they are idiots. Charging a tax that cannot meaningfully solve any particular CO2 problem (other than, yes, trying to stabilize their failing welfare states without taxing their own people right now) will only result in more financial instability for Europe.
I’m not sure I understand the point of view. Though i’m not convinced by the global warming stuff, I think incitatives for a better use of fossil fuels are not that stupid. In europe, we have had pretty high taxes on gasoline since the 70’s. The result is that we have now economic cars, that the European car industry has much better resisted than the American.
Oil is a fantastic product. I think there are more interesting uses for it than burning it in aircraft engines.
If this blog wants to convince people whatever their political side, it should refrain from consistently taking anti-regulation, anti-leftist positions. It lets think that the anti-AGW position is based on politics rather than on science (which I think it is not – I mean the scientific arguments are meaningful, but they sometimes lose credibility because of political declaration such as this article).
Zo6;
The result is that we have now economic cars, that the European car industry has much better resisted than the American.>>>
Japan’s car industry was producing more economic cars than America even earlier, and without the pressure of high taxes to prompt them. More economical is more economical, and the major cost factor is oil, with or without high taxes.
Zo6;
Oil is a fantastic product. I think there are more interesting uses for it than burning it in aircraft engines.>>>
OK fine. As soon as you come up with an alternative, let us know.
The old prepetual question: What is resp. who makes public opinion. I am very far from believing the Quislings in the media, but I had to realize that ordinary people (and not the lemming variety) fell in line with the quislings. This is also very obvious in the handling of the debt crisis: Once again “The Greek”, “The Italians”, etc. are criticised (and worse) while rationlaity is suspended for nationalist emotions. In Greece they depict Mrs. Merkel with the swastika, some argue that the “rescue” plans (i.e. fiscal union) are equal to Germany finally winning WW 2. All this is nonsense, of course, but it gains traction. My point here is, that the €Urocrats do not at all mind the very real risk of a re-ignition of old european prejudices. They follow their agenda, at all costs. I would not be too surprised, if the outcome of this latest folly was a compensation for the airlines and taxation/costs for the citizens. Germany for example has declared the biggest consumers of electricity to be excempt from the renewables fee. This results in higher costs for the ordinary citizen and business as usual for the industry. Which is good in a way, because it helps keeping the industry afloat (and in the country). On the other hand it shows clearly that “arguments” along the line “higher costs will result in more efficient production and thus we all will benefit” often are nothing but wishful thinking. It does not work this way!
Merry christmas to all of you! Enjoy a happy and peaceful holiday season!
Thomas from Franken, Germany
[snip . . OT . . kbmod]
Larry’s modest proposal for responding to the new EU carbon tax on air travel
An economically rational response from the USA would be an equal and opposite tax on air travel to and from the EU countries. The revenues from our new tax would provide subsidies for trans-PACIFIC flights. Our new tax would be automatically pegged to the EU tax. If they cut theirs in half, then we’d instantaneously follow suit.
Of course, increased cost would cause a small decrease in air traffic between the US and the EU countries. That would have a small impact on carbon emissions that stem from trans-Atlantic flights. However that small decrease would be offset by an increase in carbon emissions from trans-Pacific flights, which would become somewhat cheaper and more frequent in comparison. I’ve been meaning to check out beautiful Australia one of these days.
Our airline and tourist industries would just about break even with the new American tax. With a carefully crafted American response, whatever CO2 emissions reductions the EU hopes to accomplish by their new tax will be completely canceled out by American tax and subsidy. Taken together, both air travel taxes would be essentially carbon-neutral.
Even for Europeans who believed in CAGW, their new tax would be pointless, in light of the American counter-tax. Moreover their airline and tourist industries would take a double-whammy from both new taxes.
On the other hand, the EU countries have demonstrated a consistent and uncanny proclivity for shooting themselves in the foot. Even with the new American tax, they may continue to do so, as a matter of principle!
And since Obama has no grasp of basic science or of basic economics, my modest proposal will probably never gain traction. But it’s fun to think about.
David,
You are wrong. Japan, like European countries, heavily taxes gasoline, less than Europe, but much more than in the US.
– $2.30/l in France
– $1.92/l in Japan
” Since fuels are traded worldwide the trade prices are similar, the price paid by consumers largely reflects national pricing policy: some regions, such as Europe and Japan, impose high taxes on gasoline” (wikipedia)”
Energy consumption per capita is more than 60% higher in the US than in France. In my opinion, there’s no other reason for that than tax incitatives (French don’t have a low standard of living)
Of course, there is no alternative for feeding aircrafts. The question is more about the utility of many flights. Do we need actually just in time trading ? Do we really need our goods to be manufactured in low cost emerging countries? Do we need roses or beef from South America?
If I have to choose between going on driving my car in 20 years for a reasonable price and getting those products which I don’t really need, I don’t care about taxes on kerosene.
What “International Law”? There is no big book of international law. “International Law” is a huge web of sometimes contradictory and overlapping treaties between two or more countries including various UN treaties. When people start blathering about international law ask them to point to the page or code under “International Law” that says an act was either ‘legal’ or ‘illegal’. You want to tick off a Liberal? … tell them you’ll wait while they go look that up.
Zo6 says:
December 25, 2011 at 2:55 am
Zo6, when you say “I dont need” and “I dont care”, who do you think should decide what you need, and what you should care about? A government commitee? Just like when the central comittee in Moscow were discussing the price of eggs?
It might make just as much scientific sense, if the US and China were to charge EU aircraft so much for each cubic meter of water vapor released at flight level over their countries, as a recent study correlated a decline in stratospheric water vapor since 2000 with reduced surface temperatures.
Science News
Stratospheric Water Vapor Is a Global Warming Wild Card
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100131145840.htm
Well, looks to me like airport expansion is on the cards for which ever nearby country bows out of the latest EuroNuttyness. Iceland has a shot at it (some many year ago my Mum made a stop there on her first return home to England in 18 years… nice ‘gas station’…)
Looks like ALL of North Africa is well positioned. From the other direction, I can see Ukraine and Belarus (and some others) as nice “stop and gas up, reset tax ticker” points…
Strait in to Switzerland is nice, too.
Were I running a foreign airline, I think I’d be looking at the economics of a ‘gas stop’ just outside the tax wall…