No fair dinkum in Australia’s carbon tax today

Letter to the Editor (or an opinion piece)
Watts Up With That?
8th November 2011 (Australia time)

 

Back towards the Dark Ages

The passage of the carbon tax bills today is no reason for celebration. It is a step back towards the dark ages.

Just a few generations ago, humans lived in a “green” world. There was no coal, oil or gas providing light, heat, transport and traction power.

In this green utopia, wood provided heat for cooking fires and forests were felled for charcoal for primitive metallurgy; farmers used wooden ploughs and harvested grain with sickles and flails; the nights were lit using candles and whale oil; rich people used wind and water power to grind cereals; horses and bullocks moved coaches, wagons and troops; there was no refrigeration and salt was the only preservative for meat.

Towns were tiny as the whole family was needed to work the farm. For most people, the daylight hours were filled with heavy labour to produce, preserve and transport food. There was no surplus to support opera, bureaucracy or academia.

Humanity was relieved from this life of unrelenting toil by carbon energy – steam engines and electricity, machines, tractors, cars, ships and planes. Prosperity and longevity soared.

Today the pagan green religion celebrates the first step in their long campaign to destroy industrial society and reduce population.

They should be careful what they wish for.

For example, just a few more bitter winters in Britain will see their wind powered lights going out.

A British observer once said of the Whitlam government: “Any fool can bugger up Britain, but it takes real genius to bugger up Australia” “.

Parliament today showed the sort of genius needed to dim the lights in the lucky country.

Viv Forbes,

Rosewood    Qld   Australia

forbes@carbon-sense.com

I am happy for my email address to be published.

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111 thoughts on “No fair dinkum in Australia’s carbon tax today

  1. “Just a few generations ago, humans lived in a “green” world.”

    How true!

     
    Subject: The Green Thing

    In the line at the store, the cashier told the older woman that she
    should bring her own grocery bag because plastic bags weren’t good
    for the environment.

    The woman apologized to him and explained, “We didn’t have the
    green thing back in my day.”

    The clerk responded, “That’s our problem today. The former
    generation did not care enough to save our environment.”

    He was right, that generation didn’t have the green thing in its
    day.

    Back then, they returned their milk bottles, soda bottles and beer
    bottles to the store. The store sent them back to the plant to
    be washed and sterilized and refilled, so it could use the same
    bottles over and over. So they really were recycled.

    But they didn’t have the green thing back in that customer’s day.

    In her day, they walked up stairs, because they didn’t have an
    escalator in every store and office building. They walked to the
    grocery store and didn’t climb into a 300-horsepower machine every
    time they had to go two blocks.

    But she was right. They didn’t have the green thing in her day.

    Back then, they washed the baby’s diapers because they didn’t have
    the throw-away kind. They dried clothes on a line, not in an energy
    gobbling machine burning up 220 volts – wind and solar power really
    did dry the clothes. Kids got hand-me-down clothes from their
    brothers or sisters, not always brand-new clothing.

    But that old lady is right, they didn’t have the green thing back
    in her day.

    Back then, they had one TV, or radio, in the house – not a TV in
    every room. And the TV had a small screen the size of a
    handkerchief, not a screen the size of the state of Montana. In the
    kitchen, they blended and stirred by hand because they didn’t have
    electric machines to do everything for you.

    When they packaged a fragile item to send in the mail, they used a
    wadded up old newspaper to cushion it, not Styrofoam or plastic
    bubble wrap.

    Back then, they didn’t fire up an engine and burn gasoline just to
    cut the lawn. They used a push mower that ran on human power. They
    exercised by working so they didn’t need to go to a health club to
    run on treadmills that operate on electricity.

    But she’s right, they didn’t have the green thing back then.

    They drank from a fountain when they were thirsty instead of using
    a cup or a plastic bottle every time they had a drink of water.
    They refilled their writing pens with ink instead of buying a new
    pen, and they replaced the razor blades in a razor instead of
    throwing away the whole razor just because the blade got dull.

    But they didn’t have the green thing back then.

    Back then, people took the streetcar or a bus and kids rode their
    bikes to school or rode the school bus instead of turning their
    moms into a 24-hour taxi service. They had one electrical outlet in
    a room, not an entire bank of sockets to power a dozen appliances.
    And they didn’t need a computerized gadget to receive a signal
    beamed from satellites 2,000 miles out in space in order to find
    the nearest pizza joint.

    But isn’t it sad the current generation laments how wasteful the
    old folks were just because they didn’t have the green thing back
    then?

  2. Back then they didn’t have cars they had horses. Horses which left their feces on the road, provided the perfect incubation for disease carrying flies. It was then washed down the sewage and often straight into fresh water without any treatment whatsoever.

    Too bad we stopped being green and got cars.

  3. You are correct to remind us of how brutal and short life was for the majority of people living in the 1800’s. I read some where they want to reduce us to 20% of the CO2 used today.

    This is my analysis of that misbegotten idea based on life in the USA.

    The average energy use for the USA is 335.9 million BTUs per person. (Total population: 246,081,000) http://www.nuicc.info/?page_id=1467

    In 1949, U.S. energy use per person stood at 215 million Btu. So this is still too high. epb.lbl.gov/homepages/rick_diamond/LBNL55011-trends.pdf

    The U.S. in 1800 had a per-capita energy consumption of about 90 million Btu. Twice the target energy consumption of 45 million Btu. (Total population: 5,308,483) http://www.bu.edu/pardee/files/2010/11/12-PP-Nov2010.pdf

    If the USA reduces its energy consumption by 80% it equals 45.18 million Btu. per person IF THE POPULATION WAS THE SAME.

    Given the increase in technology and hydro power lets use the 1800 consumption level of about 90 million Btu.

    What does that mean? The site http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blfarm4.htm helps us figure that out.

    Farmers made up about 90% of labor force  in 1790 and 69% of labor force in 1800. (2.6% in 1990) About 250-300 labor-hours required to produce 100 bushels (5 acres) of wheat with walking plow, brush harrow, hand broadcast of seed, sickle, and flail in 1830. This is the same thing you talk of in your article. In 1987 with modern equipment it took 2-3/4 labor-hours to produce the same amount, 100 bushels.

    1810-30 saw the transfer of “manufacturing” from the farm and home to the shop and factory. It wasn’t until the 1840’s that we saw factory made farm machinery, labor saving devices and chemical fertilizers became common. It was in the 1860’s Kerosene lamps became popular.

    Also up until the 1850’s dung and wood were the major source of energy. http://dieoff.org/page199_files/image002.gif

    In other words for the USA to use HALF the energy per person for that was used in 1800 we must abandon ALL factories and 90% of the population must return to subsistence farming using animals. Remember in 1800 there was only 2% of the current population. Solar and Wind just are not going to produce enough power to keep us in anything but a few lights and if we are lucky a refrigerator. FACTORIES use an huge amount of power and that is why cotton mills and other primitive factories were built on rivers.

    Graph of Ag energy imputs: http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/archibald_oildown_fig9.png

    Anyone who tries to tell you differently is talking baffle gab because at present less than 9% of the US labor force is in manufacturing. The USA shipped its factories to China.

    The only other option for energy is Nuclear because Solar and wind are not going to do anything but transfer money into the Scammers pockets. Carbon credits are also a scam, a very nasty scam.

    see: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/09/25/they-had-to-burn-the-village-to-save-it-from-global-warming/

    AFRICA OWES Australia: http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2011/10/31/japanese-satellites-say-3rd-world-owes-co2-reparations-to-the-west/

  4. lots of people in Connecticut are living in Earth Day meets Groundhog Day right now.

    Wonder how happy they are to be living “green” ?

  5. “Today the pagan green religion celebrates the first step in their long campaign to destroy industrial society and reduce population.”

    What bugs me is that one could conceivably make the same sort of argument here in the U.S. regarding wind and solar. The state and federal governments, with their financial support, mandates, feed-in tariffs, etc. for wind and solar, are (IMHO) based on the notion that these alternative energy sources can somehow replace fossil fuels and nuclear as base load sources of electrical energy someday. To what extent are the environmental ideologists pushing wind and solar in an effort to make us a more energy scarce society and force us to economically and (to an extent) technologically regress back to something resembling the Middle Ages? Do they see such regression of American society as environmental progress? Admittedly, we are as a society a long way from actually seeing this happen. Nuclear and fossil fuel power plants are still be built here in the U.S. to keep up with energy demand.

    But with that said, I, like most, have worked hard all my life to earn the standard of living I currently enjoy, and it is upsetting to see an ideological movement that seeks to wage war against it — especially when it has the ears of the politicians. Wealth along with technological and economic progress can all go hand-in-hand with environmental protection based on sound science rather than on ideology.

    I can only hope that we as a nation will always understand that.

  6. As I read this the remark made at a meeting to discuss traffic problems (and the anti-car Greens in the room were really pushing for outright bans in large areas of cities in the UK) the remark was made by one of them that “if only the car hadn’t been invented, we’d still have clean fresh air in the cities and we could still be using horses.” One of the engineers in the meeting looked up, carefully removed his glasses and said quietly, “And we’d all still be knee deep in horse sh*t and the flies and stench would knock you out in the suburbs.”

    It sort of killed the debate.

    I suspect Ms Gilliard, an immigrant from Wales, may find herself invited to return to her homeland once the full impact of these taxes begin to bite. Only I think she’ll be doing it on a surfboard if she’s lucky.

  7. It should be said that… many of us AGW skeptics are generally supportive of many “green” policies. For example, we’re in favor of many reasonable recycling measures, reducing water pollution as well as particulate pollution in the air.

    We do have a problem with predictions of catastrophe that are not supported by actual data (versus fictional models) and without establishing causation to a degree of certainty commensurate with the costs of the proposed mitigation. Specifically, we are not persuaded that CO2 is the big bugaboo and we not support ridiculous carbon taxes.

    Skeptics care about our environment too.

  8. Mike from Canmore says: November 7, 2011 at 11:11 am
    Horses which left their feces on the road, provided the perfect incubation for disease carrying flies.

    Oh yes I remember the late 1950s… :-)
    Mrs Diamond used to run out into the road every morning to collect the manure left behind by the milkman’s horse… it provided the perfect fertilizer for her garden – especially the roses…

    So I guess we were recycling manure, way back then, before we took the medication and turned an antiseptic green.

  9. Mike from Canmore says:
    November 7, 2011 at 11:11 am

    Back then they didn’t have cars they had horses. Horses which left their feces on the road, provided the perfect incubation for disease carrying flies. It was then washed down the sewage and often straight into fresh water without any treatment whatsoever….
    ______________________________
    That is alright the Greenies have replaced the horses with beavers who are invested with Giardia and resist normal water treatment. see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giardiasis

    Besides the horses were the least of it. (The horse manure was usually shipped out to the farms by the way) Hay & grain to the cities and manure for the fields back to the farms. The big problem was the human waste products in the rivers and streams.

  10. The Gray Monk says: November 7, 2011 at 11:54 am
    I suspect Ms Gilliard, an immigrant from Wales, may find herself invited to return to her homeland….

    She might have a problem finding Wales… they turned off the lights in Wales in the 1970s.

  11. “Gail Combs says:
    November 7, 2011 at 11:18 am

    You are correct to remind us of how brutal and short life was for the majority of people living in the 1800′s. I read some where they want to reduce us to 20% of the CO2 used today.”

    1800s? If you’re talking about Werner’s post, try 1956, not 1856. Werner’s post is a perfect description of my childhood, a most delightful time. Canmore Mike’s was a couple months earlier.

  12. Back in the day … windmills were used for pumping water and griding grain … not slaughtering birds and bats by the millions (which leaves billions of mosquitoes alive to spread disease).

  13. Mike Smith says:
    November 7, 2011 at 11:54 am
    It should be said that… many of us AGW skeptics are generally supportive of many “green” policies. For example, we’re in favor of many reasonable recycling measures, reducing water pollution as well as particulate pollution in the air.

    We do have a problem with predictions of catastrophe that are not supported by actual data (versus fictional models) and without establishing causation to a degree of certainty commensurate with the costs of the proposed mitigation. Specifically, we are not persuaded that CO2 is the big bugaboo and we not support ridiculous carbon taxes.

    Skeptics care about our environment too.

    ______
    Well said Mike, and I would add that many “warmists” like myself, who believe that there is some level of AGW occurring, are not “catastrophists” in the sense of thinking it means some horrible future is in store because of this. There are many “warmists” who also are not in favor of carbon taxes, and other sweeping legislative and economic burdens to the average person. And certainly moderate “warmists” such as myself are very skeptical and even downright opposed to any sort of geoengineering efforts. I am convinced that there are a great many of those who are moderates, and don’t tend to the extremes at either end, and whether we are in the “warmist’ camp or “skeptical” camp, what makes us similar is the voice of moderation. Where can we find this true moderate voice in politics?

  14. A modest proposal:

    Aussieland has 3 X 10^6 square miles. If the population density of Assieland were the same as say, Italy, there would be 1.8 BILLION people in Aussieland.

    I think we should have a “prisoner exchange”. I.e., we’ll (USA) take all the folks from Assieland who think the “majority and rulling class” are NUTS!

    In tern the 33% of the US Population (Essentially the East Coast and West coast, or about 100,000,000 people we’ll ship to ASSIELAND. Now, consider the following. The SUN (plenty in Australia) and wind (plent on the coasts) will provide MORE than enough for the extra guests/new comers. There will be no problems, because…after all, by recyling the beer, they’ll have plent of water (just a litle salty). And, the extra sewage will help fertillize the land. Now this would really be an UNFAIR exchange. But, I’m willing to bet that a variety of conservative, hard working, non-eco freak French, British and Germans would be happy to move in to replace the 100,000,000 who have gone to live in “heaven” in Aussieland.

    What a wonderful idea! The 100,000,000 all speak some form of “English”. The French and Germans moving to the USA all speak ESL already. (Although the French will only admit it, when they have to buy food or drink…) and eventually we could clear France, Germany and Britain of all their “eco freaks” too. The Russians, Indians, Chinese, Japanese and Indonesians would not have to change a wit. They are happy, know how to burn their fossil fuels, and would probably appreciate being able to dump a few of their “radicals” into Aussieland, sort of like the British dumping their criminals there, 150 years ago. Now we really wouldn’t have to worry about any “reciminations” from this scheme, as the Assielanders would not:

    1. Maintain an Army (or Navy!)
    2. Buy any food from outside of Aussieland (Genetically modified, you know!)
    3. Trouble us by “flying out” (too much carbon footprint, except…of course, for their “elite”, but that would be less than 0.1% of the population, and they could rationalize that whatever fuels they burn, it’s done in “good faith” and for the “benefit of the masses”.

    Peace, tranquility, harmony..and a true “New World Order”..who could ask for anything more. (PS-
    if you get some our “Portland” Occupy Wall Street folks, we’ll supply the “lice powder” for free, and make sure they are “de-loused” before we send them.)

    Max

  15. Werner Brozek says:Nov 7 1100am
    Great reply Werner. I remember getting Dad buying our first gas powered lawn mower back in the mid fifties. What a treat for me not to have to push that darn mower.
    Speaking of horses, I love westerns, but have you ever seen a western with horse crap on the streets? No, and if you know a little about horses, most horses would not be at the tie rack when you came back to them because of the way movies show the folks tying them up. The town would be full of wondering horses. Ha.

  16. Anthony,
    As much as we love you and all down under, you have completely mis-used the local idiom.

    “Fair dinkum” is an adjective or adverb. It makes no sense unless you specify the person or thing that is being (or not being) fair dinkum. Although you could say something is “Not fair dinkum” you just can’t say “no fair dinkum”.
    “Fair dinkum” means real, genuine, not fake. It has nothing to do with fair or balanced.

    Examples:
    “The hockey stick is not bullshit – it is fair dinkum”

    “Michael Mann is a fair dinkum bloke, no flies on him.”

    Often Australians will simply say “Fair Dinkum” as a shorthand for “I’m not bullshitting you, I’m being fair dinkum”. Which is, of course, a signal that they are most likely bullshitting.

    And finally, and I’m being fair dinkum here, Australians are incapable of pedantry.

    REPLY: I researched this prior to making the title, and the letter writer, Viv Forbes seemed to like it, as he sent a note of thanks and “good job”. – Anthony

  17. REPLY: I researched this prior to making the title, and the letter writer, Viv Forbes seemed to like it, as she sent a note of thanks and “good job”. – Anthony

    Maybe she noticed the treatment that a friendly poster received for trying to be helpful with language?

    When I was at school I was interested in only science, science and more science(and a little bit of maths). My English teachers were in despair. I now realise that to get a message across accuracy in language is just as important as accuracy in data and thinking. Nick Stokes uses accurate language. You should too – it makes your message more believable. Sceptics need to be sceptical.

    Example of TERRIBLE language that Americans love to use “I could care less.”

    Accuracy in language is good, not bad, as hoi poloi would have us believe. It displays good thinking not the evil “elitism” that all are so keen to avoid.

    Oh and Fred* agrees with me too.

    * Fred Reed of course.

    This post written in English.

  18. Gail Combs says:
    November 7, 2011 at 11:18 am

    You are correct to remind us of how brutal and short life was for the majority of people living in the 1800′s. I read some where they want to reduce us to 20% of the CO2 used today.

    And for a considerable part of the 1900’s and, in the UK at least, the 2000’s. I have a pet green activist (UK) who seems to think that the population of the UK should be around 2 million if we are to avoid planetary meltdown (whatever that is). He won’t say how this 58 million reduction will be achieved but seems to believe he will be one of the chosen few. I keep warning him that large, brutal individuals with weapons are more likely to make up the final contestants but he seems to think otherwise. Oh well.

  19. Stop working today and get on Welfare, go GREEN
    Live in Sod houses, go GREEN
    Walk everywhere, go GREEN
    Filter River Water to drink, go GREEN
    Fish for food, go GREEN (PS, eat it raw)
    Vote for Obama, go large government, go GREEN

  20. The urbanites always think they will be the last to go. That the flyovers and country peasants will suffer for them. I don’t think so.

  21. acementhead:

    The next time you go on a rant about proper English usage, it would be a good idea to eliminate spelling, grammar, and usage errors in the rant itself. If I had turned anything like that into one of my (American) English teachers, it would have come back as a mass of red ink.

    By the way, “I could care less” is a sarcastic expression (although not everyone who uses it realizes that). It grew out of the Jewish community in America — other English-speaking countries don’t have that to any significant extent, so sometimes we have to translate for our brethren in the Anglosphere.

  22. People back then used to do a lot of Clubbing too, not the dancing kind the seal clubbing kind and any other kind of clubbing that evolved hitting an animal over the head with a heavy stick, and they used to make a good living at it.

    @R. Gates You come across very well, I’m sure you would stand up for those with a skeptical view of the AGW hypothesis even if you didn’t agree with them.

  23. In response to another article (CO2 emissions by the elderly) I commented WUWT is becoming a pro-sceptic gossip column. This trivial article does nothing to dissuade me from that view. It might have been more in the spirit of the “old” WUWT if the comments of a possible future PM of Australia. Malcolm Turnbull, excoriating climate sceptics and referring to the BEST reports from Richard Muller as a basis for this. He is a recent and possible future leader of the Liberals who, at the moment, are not only opposing a carbon tax in Australia but state they will remove it when/if they get into power. Not under Malcolm Turnbull they won’t

  24. acementhead,
    The correction was for usage of local Australian patois, which non-Australians would not be expected to know. Viv Forbes, like most Australians, would not even think of correcting a murrican on that point.

  25. Greg Combet wrote an article 07 Nov in “The Australian” Growth in world carbon trading is no fantasy.”
    He asserts that Canada’s Foreign Minister John Baird got it wrong when he said:
    “There is nothing to join. It is like a pyramid marketing scheme. You don’t have to actually sell the dog food, you just have to get 10 of your friends to do it and you’ll get royalties.”

    In his article Combet denied that it is “half way between fraud and fantasy” as it had been described and tells us that:

    “Despite recent falls in the carbon price, daily trading volumes continue at high levels, involving credible emission reduction units generated in a wide range of countries and traded by Japan, New Zealand, Norway, Russia and all the EU member states. In addition, South Korea, California and major Chinese provinces are scheduled to commence trading in the period 2012-2015.”

    Why then Mr Combet on 02 Nov in Montreal Canada did ICAO decisively support Argentina, Brazil, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Chile, China, Columbia, Cuba, Egypt, Guatemala, India, Japan, Republic of Korea, Malaysia, Mexico, Nigeria, Paraguay, Peru, Qatar, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, South Africa, USA, Uganda and the United Arab Emirates in contesting the EU’s plan to impose their Emissions Trading Scheme on all International Airlines operating into Europe from 01 Jan 2012?

    Only the EU countries voted against the declaration and Canada and Australia abstained.

    I can understand why Canada abstained as they are seeking EU support in retaining ICAO headquarters in Montreal. And I can now see why Australia abstained because you believe carbon trading is no fantasy.

    Well, Greg if you can demonstrate that before the next Australian Election you will not only be a genius you will be the Wizard of Oz.

  26. Sparks;
    @R. Gates You come across very well, I’m sure you would stand up for those with a skeptical view of the AGW hypothesis even if you didn’t agree with them.>>>

    Boy oh boy, does he have you fooled.

  27. This must be Gough Whitlam’s proudest moment – is he still alive?

    Australia has legislated for something goofier than even he could think up

  28. I started working for a government department – Post Master General – in 1972.

    We didn’t have computers so we had to calculate pay sheets by hand using enormous sheets and a “slide rule”. We were paid in cash in those days.

    The building had no elevator. The office wasn’t air conditioned. An air conditioned car was a luxury and rare. Public transport relied on open windows for ventilation. Mostly air conditioning was restricted to places like department stores. Schools and Universities weren’t air conditioned – at least the ones I attended. Brisbane can get pretty hot in our six month spring/summer.

    Tradesmen used primitive tools.

    I could go on.

    I can’t wait for these spoilt “occupy” protestors and their green activists to see what life is like without modern energy driven convenience.

  29. Werner Brozek;

    Wow, excellent comment. Worth reading and worth repeating. Well done!

    The sad fact is that the current generation seems to think that the world works by magic. Food just appears on grocery store shelves, lumber stores are filled to the brim with building materials, and clean water comes out of the tap, all by magic. Not only do they not appreciate the length of the supply chain, they also don’t appreciate that much of the cost of the goods they buy, is, in fact energy. Worse, that much of what they take for granted is impossible without fossil fuels. The phrase “an apple for the teacher” no longer makes sense because they don’t recall a time when fresh fruit was almost non existant in the winter because the means to transport it and deliver it fresh were near impossible. To part with a single apple, a treasure lode of vitamens that could make a substantive difference to one’s health, was a substantive gift in years gone by. Today we expect to see apples and strawberries and other fresh fruit all year round. Take away the fossil fuels and it will be there only a few months a year, much of it rotten, and it will cost 10 to 20 times as much.

    The only thing worse than curing a disease that doesn’t exist is a cure that kills more patients than the disease possibly could even if it were real.

  30. It will be a rude awakening when the Green realize they are the most expendable part of the population. And it may then only take a 10-15% reduction in headcount to make the turn back into the age of science and progress.

  31. Robert Blair says:
    November 7, 2011 at 2:27 pm
    acementhead,
    The correction was for usage of local Australian patois, which non-Australians would not be expected to know. Viv Forbes, like most Australians, would not even think of correcting a murrican on that point.

    I understood that, agree, and approve. I’m a Kiwi and have lived in Aus off and on for about a total of 6 years. Also traveled there at least 50 times times. I speak Strine.

  32. Viv Forbes says

    There was no surplus to support opera, bureaucracy or academia.
    ———-
    This displays a total ignorance of history. We have civilization for 5000 years now.

    This whole dark ages stuff is just bad storytelling. We went through this whole routine when a previous conservative government introduced a goods and services tax. Apparently this GST was supposed to end civilization as we know it and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth. The world did not end and now nobody cares.

    The history of it’s introduction is also much the same. The conservatives said they were not going to introduce a GST and then they were elected and then they introduced it. They lied, but conservatives did not care about honesty so much then.

    The commonality of the carbon tax with the GST is also that when it was introduced other taxes were eliminated or reduced so the total tax take remained constant.

    So the conclusion is obvious. The overall effect of a carbon tax will be small with winners and losers depending on economic circumstances. After people get used to it no one will notice.

    The whole idea of some government plot to return us to the dark ages is just nonsense.

  33. Gail Coombs says
    This is my analysis of that misbegotten idea based on life in the USA.
    ——–
    The flaw in your argument is that many countries other than the USA are able to achieve standards of living comparable to the USA without wasting so much energy. By a large margin. Those countries are not living in the dark ages.

  34. R. Gates says:

    Well said Mike, and I would add that many “warmists” like myself, who believe that there is some level of AGW occurring, are not “catastrophists” in the sense of thinking it means some horrible future is in store because of this. There are many “warmists” who also are not in favor of carbon taxes, and other sweeping legislative and economic burdens to the average person. And certainly moderate “warmists” such as myself are very skeptical and even downright opposed to any sort of geoengineering efforts. I am convinced that there are a great many of those who are moderates, and don’t tend to the extremes at either end, and whether we are in the “warmist’ camp or “skeptical” camp, what makes us similar is the voice of moderation. Where can we find this true moderate voice in politics?
    ————————————-
    You can’t, at least not not in the U.S. The U.S. political system is often described as a two-party system, and functionally it is, but if you read the constitution there is no mention of political parties. Several of the founding fathers (Ben Franklin chief among them) published comments along the line that they saw political parties as being inherently anti-democratic. Based on this, I believe what was intended by the drafters of the constitution was not a two-party nor a one-party, nor even a multi-party political system but rather a no-party system.

    It didn’t take long for political parites to form for the basis of pooling fund-raising and other resources and I don’t see a big problem if that had been as far as it went. However, somewhere along the line control of the election process itself got turned over to the political parties in such a way that the two majority parties are able to set the basic election rules in such a way that makes it impossible for minority parties to have any significant impact especially at the federal level. It is possible for a minority party to move up to being one of the majority parties in a land-slide style victory. However this would only move the surviving incumbent party to collude with the new party to lock out the old incumbent party from the process. This has happened a couple of times in U.S. history. Few Americans today remember that both of the current incumbent parties (Deemocrats and Republicans) were created as a result of a schism in a single predisessor party.

    This extra-constitutional two party structure effectivelly gives undo power to the most extreme elements in both incumbent parties.

    The only way I see to fix this is to somehow wrest controll of the election system back from the political parties and switch to non-partisan primaries for all state and federal offices. However, given that both of the incumbent parties seem to ignore the plain language of the constitution whenever it is inconvienient for them I don’t see any way this could be implemented.

  35. Rosco says:
    November 7, 2011 at 3:04 pm

    “Tradesmen used primitive tools.”
    My dad was an electrical engineer all his working life, I remember the tools he used, no cordless power tools back then, they used bit braces to drive in screws, It was all hand cranked.

  36. @Rosco Many, if not most, of the “Occupy ….” protestors don’t have a pot to piss in, don’t have cars and, if you haven’t noticed, have been sleeping outdoors, some in the snow.
    And most probably don’t have health care either, so they’re living much more like our forebears than most of us here.

  37. LazyTeenager;
    This whole dark ages stuff is just bad storytelling.>>>

    It is? Kinda like your rendition of the GST story which you got totaly backwards? The Conservatives didn’t promise not to bring it in. They brought it in and were defeated in an election by the Liberals who promised that if elected they would repeal it. But after being elected they didn’t even try. One Liberal MP actually publicly said that she would resign if the GST wasn’t gone in a year. A year later she complained that she shouldn’t have to resign just because she promised she would. You’ve completely reversed the story and called the Conservatives dishonest for something that the Liberals did.

    Similarly, you have got the “dark ages stuff” backwards. It wasn’t bad story telling. It was stories of bad things.

  38. Curiousgeorge says at November 7, 2011 at 11:40 am
    Nice letter, Viv. :) Kinda makes one want to go “occupy” something. ;)

    How about Occupy Greenpeace!

  39. Curt says:
    November 7, 2011 at 2:08 pm
    acementhead:
    “By the way, “I could care less” is a sarcastic expression (although not everyone who uses it realizes that). It grew out of the Jewish community in America — other English-speaking countries don’t have that to any significant extent, so sometimes we have to translate for our brethren in the Anglosphere.”

    The phrase, “I could care less”, is basically meaningless used in its normal context, when the phrase, “I could not care less.” is so much more meaningful. The first is a common error, maybe mostly in the US. My liberal arts daughter gigs me for using it all the time.

    How about the word, “irregardless”?

  40. LazyTeenager says:
    November 7, 2011 at 3:16 pm

    davidmhoffer says:
    November 7, 2011 at 4:22 pm

    I just can’t let this pass,

    Firstly, the Liberal party in Australia are the conservatives. Labor party are the lefties.
    John Howard, the Liberal Prime Minister at the time (1998), had changed his mind and decided that a GST (Goods and Services Tax) would be good for the economy.
    However, he took this to an election and scraped in by the skin of his teeth, hence gaining a mandate to introduce the tax (albeit much watered down by the Senate where the Democrats [further left than Labor] had the balance of power.)

    Where the Carbon (dioxide) Tax differs is that the current Prime Minister Julia Gillard had said specifically “There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead.” just 2 days before the last election.

    To appease the power sharing Greens (the election result was a hung parliament) Gillard went back on her word, decided to introduce the tax and swore black and blue that she had not lied.

    here it is all recorded on film

  41. just cut the power to those who voted for the imbeciles that did this …and don’t turn it back on ever. stop them form having babies too. Darwin didn’t count on this level of stupidity.

  42. Matt says:

    “The only way I see to fix this is to somehow wrest controll of the election system back from the political parties and switch to non-partisan primaries for all state and federal offices.”

    ——-
    I agree completely, but the entrenchment of the big money two-party system that thrives on division among the people will be hard to unseat. Ultimately they won’t just hand it back but it will have to be reclaimed by “we the people”.

  43. Fair dinkum cobber, change the title.

    NO FAIR GO IN AUSTRALIAS CARBON TAX TODAY

    And you would reply..

    “Fair suck of the sauce bottle, I only spent one month down under.”

    REPLY: Are you suggesting that I’m a drunk? – Anthony

  44. The Howard government(liberal,-mainly conservative) brought in the GST.He did say “there will never be a GST under my government”but then was convinced of the merits of a GST,and campaigned on introducing a GST,he took it to the people,he was given a mandate to introduce a GST by the people(it was close,he nearly lost,thanks to a hysterical media campaign),unlike Matilda(told such dreadful lies,made one gasp and stretch ones eyes)Gillard who maybe told the truth when she said “there will be no carbon tax under the Government I lead”It’s well known that Bob Brown(Green maniac) is actually leading the Government.
    The GST was good for Australia,a lot of taxes were brought back to 10 percent mainly on electronics,I remember the price of computer parts,cameras,phones,televisions before the GST.I spend 150 dollars at the supermarket and the GST is about 4 dollars,nowhere near the prices the media claimed would be imposed on food.
    I cannot see any benefits from a carbon tax,everything will rise,nothing will drop in price.

  45. Sparks says:
    November 7, 2011 at 2:16 pm

    @R. Gates You come across very well, I’m sure you would stand up for those with a skeptical view of the AGW hypothesis even if you didn’t agree with them.
    ————–
    I will always stand up for freedom of thought, speech, and expression, no matter my personal perspectives. Not always, but often it seems, the truth of an issue is somewhere in the middle, and the extremes on both sides provide valuable perspective, but that extremism shouldn’t prevent the great moderate middle from seeking common ground.

  46. Paul Coppin says:
    November 7, 2011 at 12:17 pm

    “Gail Combs says:
    November 7, 2011 at 11:18 am

    You are correct to remind us of how brutal and short life was for the majority of people living in the 1800′s. I read some where they want to reduce us to 20% of the CO2 used today.”

    1800s? If you’re talking about Werner’s post, try 1956…
    ___________________________________
    In the USA draft animals were still used in 1956, heck they are still in use, I have a couple of draft ponies I use. But the equipment they pull is commercially made, disc, plow, manure spreader…. and they all have parts made of steel. As I said the factory made stuff became common in the 1850’s but was often pulled by draft animals.

    Some farmers did/do not want tractors compacting their fields with their heavy weight or the fields slope too much for a tractor or they just do not need that much added expense.

    The big point is mining, smelting ore and casting parts for equipment are all big energy users. That is the point everyone seems to leave out of their calculations.

    That is why the article states:
    “…..farmers used wooden ploughs and harvested grain with sickles and flails; the nights were lit using candles and whale oil….”

    That is the early 1800’s not the 1950’s.

    History of American Agriculture – Farm Machinery and Technology gives a good snap shot of each decade and the advances. http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blfarm1.htm

  47. Strike me pink. I don’t know which is worse, LazyTeenagers lack of knowledge about history or davidmhoffers lack of knowledge about Aussie politics.

    L.T. The Liberals did say “never, ever” in 1995. By the time of the 1998 election the GST had become policy and the Coallition went to the polls campaigning for the GST. Everybody knew that if they were re-elected the GST would come in. To say otherwise and to claim they “lied” is revisionism at its best. The fact is that they campaigned on the introduction of the GST and won the election on that campaign.

    No parallel can be drawn to Gillards “No Carbon Tax” deceit. The Liberals said they would bring in a GST if elected and did just that, Gillard said she wouldn’t bring in a carbon tax and has done the opposite. Gillard lied, Howard did not.

    David, the conservatives in Aussie politics are the Liberals. How you get conservatives bringing something in only to be defeated by the Liberals is beyond me. Sorry, but your whole comment is nonsensical.

    I will add that the Liberals who brought in the GST were not defeated at the following election. John Howard continued on as one of Australias longest serving Prime Ministers until the defeat in 2007. Conversely there is only one thing to say to anybody who thnks that the ALP and Greens will survive the next election.

    “Tell him he’s dreaming”

  48. Robert Blair says:
    November 7, 2011 at 1:02 pm
    Anthony,
    As much as we love you and all down under, you have completely mis-used the local idiom.

    “Fair dinkum” is an adjective or adverb. It makes no sense unless you specify the person or thing that is being (or not being) fair dinkum. Although you could say something is “Not fair dinkum” you just can’t say “no fair dinkum”.
    “Fair dinkum” means real, genuine, not fake. It has nothing to do with fair or balanced.

    Examples:
    “The hockey stick is not bullshit – it is fair dinkum”

    “Michael Mann is a fair dinkum bloke, no flies on him.”
    ===================================================

    Our colloquialisms in Australia are bastardised by everybody … ex PM Rudd, “Fair suck on the sauce bottle” gaff is a great example.

    However on the point of “Not fair dinkum”, I would suggest that this is acceptable … there exists no fair or genuine reason for the actions of the Gillard / Brown government in enacting a carbon tax.

    The examples quoted beg correction:

    “The hockey stick is bullshit – it is not fair dinkum”
    “Michael Mann is not a fair dinkum bloke, he’s a drongo.”
    “Anthony Watts is a fair dinkum bloke, no flies on him.”

  49. @Bob at 4:44PM

    There is no such word(unless you failed English) as “irregardless”.
    And D Marshall….so they ocubots live in a tent.Whooppie.Let’s see how many are still around come the real winter.And they might have health care if the didn’t spend all their money on ipods,video cameras,puters,etc! It’s called insurance. @Werner……A++ article.Saving that little baby up.

    REPLY: Merriam-Webster defines “irregardless” so unless you failed instructions on how to use a dictionary, it exists:

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irregardless

    Dictionary.com too:

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/irregardless

    And Wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irregardless

    It seems clear to me that it exists, and is in references worldwide.

    – Anthony

  50. R. Gates says:
    November 7, 2011 at 12:44 pm

    Mike Smith says:
    November 7, 2011 at 11:54 am

    …..Skeptics care about our environment too.

    _________
    R. Gates says:
    November 7, 2011 at 12:44 pm
    Well said Mike, and I would add that many “warmists” like myself, who believe that there is some level of AGW occurring, are not “catastrophists”…….. I am convinced that there are a great many of those who are moderates, and don’t tend to the extremes at either end, and whether we are in the “warmist’ camp or “skeptical” camp, what makes us similar is the voice of moderation. Where can we find this true moderate voice in politics?
    ___________________
    You and Mike are correct, unfortunately most of the politicians, liberal or conservative are bought and paid for.

    For one thing what ever happen to “Built to Last” The stuff made before the 1960’s was well built and expected to last, now I swear much of the stuff is ENGINEERED to break within a couple of years.

    Kids who moan about the environment turnaround and demand their parents buy the latest fashions/ techy toys. Heck my vehicle is twenty years old and my computer is fifteen, they both do the job so I am not going to replace them just to be “fashionable”

  51. Coal saved the forests, oil saved the whales and the automobile saved horses from lives of toil and misery.

    Time to teach history correctly and get this greenwashed nightmare over.

  52. “Streetcred says:
    November 7, 2011 at 5:39 pm”

    He never said “Fair suck on the sauce bottle”, he said “Fair shake of the sauce bottle”. Irregarless, the ALP certainly do suck. Mind you, no political party in Australia sucks any less than the ALP. That is to suck as much money out of thin air and my wallet.

  53. Baa Humbug says:
    November 7, 2011 at 5:21 pm
    LazyTeenager says:
    November 7, 2011 at 3:16 pm
    davidmhoffer says:
    November 7, 2011 at 4:22 pm
    I just can’t let this pass,
    Firstly, the Liberal party in Australia are the conservatives. Labor party are the lefties>>>

    My apologies. I didn’t know Australia had a tax called the GST.

    We have the GST in Canada, and it was brought in by the Conservative party (that’s their name) and the Liberal party (again, their name) promised to throw it out if elected. They were elected, and did no such thing.

    But if LazyTeenager was referencing Australia, then I stand corrected.

  54. LazyTeenager says:
    November 7, 2011 at 3:24 pm

    Gail Coombs says
    This is my analysis of that misbegotten idea based on life in the USA.
    ——–
    The flaw in your argument is that many countries other than the USA are able to achieve standards of living comparable to the USA without wasting so much energy. By a large margin. Those countries are not living in the dark ages.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    I was using the USA as an example. And it seems I was spot on with using 1800 as the living conditions that were the target.

    ECOWORLD: World Energy: The Good, Bad, and BTUs

    …if the per capita energy consumption in the developing world were to reach only 50% of that consumed by the citizens of industrialized nations, and if everyone in the prosperous industrialized nations were to conserve themselves down to that same level, energy production worldwide would have to double. That is to say, if everyone on earth got by on 100 million BTUs of energy per year….

    http://www.ecoworld.com/energy-fuels/world-energy-consumption-the-good-bad-and-btus.html

    I said:
    “The U.S. in 1800 had a per-capita energy consumption of about 90 million Btu…..” http://www.bu.edu/pardee/files/2010/11/12-PP-Nov2010.pdf

    Add a bit of refrigeration for the elite and I am just about spot on about the level of technology.
    Remember in 1800 the USA was still better off than Africa or the mountain areas of Mexico or South America where if you own a horse or mule or a string of donkeys you are “rich”

    This is the first part of the 19th Century:

    18th century – Oxen and horses for power, crude wooden plows, all sowing by hand, cultivating by hoe, hay and grain cutting with sickle, and threshing with flail
    _______________________
    1790’s – Cradle and scythe introduced
    1793 – Invention of cotton gin
    1794 – Thomas Jefferson’s moldboard of least resistance tested
    1797 – Charles Newbold patented first cast-iron plow
    1819 – Jethro Wood patented iron plow with interchangeable parts
    1819-25 – U.S. food canning industry established
    1830 – About 250-300 labor-hours required to produce 100 bushels (5 acres) of wheat with walking plow, brush harrow, hand broadcast of seed, sickle, and flail

    1834 – McCormick reaper patented
    1834 – John Lane began to manufacture plows faced with steel saw blades
    1837 – John Deere and Leonard Andrus began manufacturing steel plows
    1837 – Practical threshing machine patented

    http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blfarm1.htm

    Also see http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blfarm3.htm And the other links.

    Remember:

    “…The U.S. in 1800 had a per-capita energy
    consumption of about 90 million British Thermal Units (BTU) (EIA 2008, 385),
    nearly all of it for household heating and cooking, and nearly all of it from wood
    (Schurr 1960, 49)….”

    That leaves NOTHING left over for other energy usage. http://www.bu.edu/pardee/files/2010/11/12-PP-Nov2010.pdf

  55. Thanks for the correction,Anthony. Just that way back when I was in grade school,the word was slang at its worse.Too old to change now…lol

  56. The carbon tax is now law, passed in the Senate. Sad sad day for Australias race to the bottom.

  57. D Marshall says: November 7, 2011 at 4:12 pm

    @Rosco Many, if not most, of the “Occupy ….” protestors don’t have a pot to piss in, don’t have cars and, if you haven’t noticed, have been sleeping outdoors, some in the snow.

    “No Pot to piss”, unless you happen to read other sites news, I believe many do.
    For each of the 984 Occupy Wall Street protesters arrested in New York City between September 18 and October 15, police collected and filed an information sheet recording the arrestee’s name, age, sex, criminal charge, home address and — in most cases — race. The Daily Caller has obtained all of this information from a source in the New York City government.

    Among addresses for which information is available, single-family homes listed on those police intake forms have a median value of $305,000 — a far higher number than the $185,400 median value of owner-occupied housing units in the United States.

    Even in the nation’s currently depressed housing market, at least 95 of the protesters’ residences are worth approximately $500,000 or more. (RELATED SLIDESHOW: Opulent homes of the ’99 percent’)
    The median monthly rent for those living in apartments whose information is readily available is $1,850.

    http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/02/nyc-arrest-records-many-occupy-wall-street-protesters-live-in-luxury/

  58. If the Temperature doesnt increase over the next 20 years due to PDO and weaker sun, then the tax will be thrown out, and the scientists will say the warming is going into the deep ocean, or the deep land, or outer space, or somewhere, and that the science has ‘moved on’, but at least the tax will be thown out, which h will be an ‘adjustment’, same as in Squeler’s days on Animal Farm.

  59. Back then, women died in droves. Men often outlived more than a couple wives. Why? Women worked from scratch to produce just about everything that was used or consumed in the household. There were no breaks, no lunch, and no machines in the home. If you wanted soap, you made it. If you wanted clothes you made them. If you wanted veggies in the winter you canned them. If you wanted bread, you kneaded it 4 times and raised it 5 times (trust me, it turns out better). If you wanted to survive into your old age and be cared for, you had your wife give birth numerous times. And commonly, they died giving birth.

    Yeh. I wanna return to THAT age.

  60. Robert Blair says:
    November 7, 2011 at 1:02 pm
    Anthony, As much as we love you and all down under, you have completely mis-used the local idiom.
    REPLY: I researched this prior to making the title, and the letter writer, Viv Forbes seemed to like it, as he sent a note of thanks and “good job”. – Anthony

    How to speak OZ. Take any word you like, cut it short and add the sound “EE” to the end. Unless that makes a word that already exists, in which case, add “OH” to the end instead.

    BBQ becomes barb-ee.
    derelict does not become dare-ee (dairy), it becomes dare-oh

  61. Matt says:
    November 7, 2011 at 3:33 pm
    However, somewhere along the line control of the election process itself got turned over to the political parties in such a way that the two majority parties are able to set the basic election rules in such a way that makes it impossible for minority parties to have any significant impact especially at the federal level.

    By law, monopolies are illegal in the US. Unless of course they are rich and powerful monopolies.

  62. I have a question for the C.E.O. of Quantas. Seeing that you were losing money over a few minor industrial disputes and that you had the strength to do the right thing and shut down the Airline to save it, will you now either sell your international operation or close it, as it is now no longer competitive in the International market due to the carbon tax you have to pay.

  63. D Marshall says:
    November 7, 2011 at 4:12 pm

    @Rosco Many, if not most, of the “Occupy ….” protestors don’t have a pot to piss in, don’t have cars and, if you haven’t noticed, have been sleeping outdoors, some in the snow.
    And most probably don’t have health care either, so they’re living much more like our forebears than most of us here.

    Not hardly. A copter with IR overflew the sites at night, and the tents are almost all cold and dark — no warm bodies. They go home to sleep in warm beds, stoke up on hot food, then return to protest posturing.

  64. Patrick Davis says: November 7, 2011 at 7:30 pm The carbon tax is now law, passed in the Senate. Sad sad day for Australias race to the bottom.

    Skippy has lost a battle but not the war. Up here Lassie and Flipper are hanging on too. It ain’t over till it’s over (quoth Yogi Berra).

  65. Simple solution Aussies, don’t hire, don’t invest, and don’t spend on anything more than bare basics. Call it voting with your feet in the economy of dunces. They fall and you can celebrate and learn from the fall of Greece first.

  66. Gail Combs says:
    November 7, 2011 at 5:49 pm
    For one thing what ever happen to “Built to Last” The stuff made before the 1960′s was well built and expected to last, now I swear much of the stuff is ENGINEERED to break within a couple of years.

    Yes, that annoys me too. Products can be durable when designed and made well, and properly cared for. Just last night I demonstrated my slide rule to my two youngest kids. This being the exact same slide rule that I used in high school over 40 years ago! They were speechless. Actually, so was I, but that was attributable to the fact that I still knew how to use the darn thing without a second of thought ;-)

    A modern calculator is unlikely to last for 6 months in the hands of today’s high school students.

  67. you say:

    There was no surplus to support opera, bureaucracy or academia.

    Of course there was. It was called serfs and slaves ( not to mention armies). The lords of a feudal society live a fine life and did create opera, after all.

  68. Thanks Anthony,

    At least the US Senate had the brains to vote 94-0 against Kyoto.

    I feel very ashamed about the IQ of Australian politicians.

  69. Streetcred: Yairs, well my examples were a bit crook. What I really reckon is that Mann fella thinks he’s pretty flash. As flash as a rat with a gold tooth.

    Noelene: If Gillard really was dinky-di I reckon she’d get back on her broomstick and go back to Wales…

  70. “A British observer once said of the Whitlam government: “Any fool can bugger up Britain, but it takes real genius to bugger up Australia” .

    Well Viv, the observer was correct. The Welsh witch has welshed on the Aussie people. Interesting what a Google (sorry Anthony, I know you are not happy with Google!) comes up with when the word “Welshed” is typed in……

    welshed past participle, past tense of welsh
    Verb: Fail to honor (a debt or obligation incurred through a promise or agreement).

  71. Meant to add that its sums up Gillard in the first Video put up by Baa Humbug @
    November 7, 2011 at 5:21 pm

  72. My standard reply to crusading “greens”is ” if you want to reduce your carbon footprint,move to North Korea” . It usually shuts them up.

  73. There’s one other aspect to having a 1790 level of energy. In most of the world, most of that 300 man hours per 100 bushels of wheat were provided by slaves. In some parts of the world, it still is.

    Slavery wasn’t eliminated in the Western world solely because of moral considerations. It was eliminated because industrialization made it possible to eliminate.

    Make no mistake, limit energy use that much and slavery will once again be common.

  74. Good timing. Now the Gilliard can trade stories with the ‘Bama about how to get things done despite the stated will of the people:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/07/us-apec-obama-poliitcs-idUSTRE7A60XM20111107

    (…)
    Obama embarks on a nine-day trip to Hawaii, Australia and Indonesia on Friday that he will use to highlight U.S.-Asian economic ties and the long-standing U.S. role in the region’s security.
    (…)
    White House officials said Obama has diplomatic goals he hopes to advance at the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation summit that he will host in Honolulu on November 12-13 and during his visits to Canberra, Darwin and Bali.
    (…)

    Maybe this time he’ll show Australia how important they are as an ally, instead of deciding he’s better off playing politics back home:

    (…)
    Obama twice had to cancel plans to travel to Australia and Indonesia in 2010, the first time because the negotiations over his signature health care bill were at a critical stage and the second time because of the oil spill on the U.S. Gulf Coast.

    He ultimately did visit Indonesia later in 2010 but the trip this month to Australia will be his first as president.
    (…)

    Indonesia, yes he got around to that visit, to the country he spent some time in while growing up. Australia, no. Although there are reports he thinks highly of Australia after studying it’s culture, having once rented Crocodile Dundee, downing a few Foster’s over the years, and stopping by some Outback Steakhouse restaurants when Michelle was hungry for ribs.

  75. [gator69 [November 7, 2011 at 6:09 pm] says:

    “Coal saved the forests, oil saved the whales and the automobile saved horses from lives of toil and misery.

    Time to teach history correctly and get this greenwashed nightmare over.”

    Exactly right, my brother. Repeated for truth.

    The Greenies are nothing more than modern Luddites. Similarly, Socialists and Communists are nothing more than modern Diggers. They have been in existence for a very long time. What is new though, is the fact that due to modern circumstances, they have found each other and are affiliated in an unholy cabal to destroy modern civilization. It may not be their stated goals but it would be the end result should they ever succeed.

    People need to wake up and realize there is a much larger picture here, trees versus forest style. The trees are very often a distraction, like rabbit holes.

  76. “Any fool can bugger up Britain” … as every fool elected to our noble Parliament is only too eager to demonstrate.

  77. I have lived through 70 years of life which is far easier now than when I was a child with ice covered bedroom windows, on the inside, every morning.

  78. JohnB says:
    November 7, 2011 at 5:37 pm
    “Tell him he’s dreaming”
    Good comment, “it’s going straight to the poolroom”

    To misquote a former Prime Minister “Well may we say God save the Queen, because nothing is going to save the Labor Party at the next election”

    A very sad day for Australia.

  79. Anthony, your use of Aussie vernacular in the title is ridgy-didge. No wuckers about that, you’re a mate. And a bonza letter from Viv that you’ve published. Obviously, the Australian government is a few roos short in the top paddock and it is embarrassing to working families like mine that we are not moving forward in Oz on the CAGW tax hoax. Voters will take the long handle to the Australian Labor Party at election time for this. They will never recover from what they have done.

  80. Pamela Gray says: November 7, 2011 at 8:18 pm
    Back then, women died in droves.

    You are speaking of women that raised many, many children, worked on the family farm, in primary industries and manufacturing. These days many women can have government employ (affirmative action) and have the option ‘to work from home’. Bad luck to the women that still have to attend work at a work-place. They bear the brunt of paying for child-care, child vacation care (costs @ max 6 weeks blocks of time), using public transport, chosing to use personal vehicles to attend to child[ren] needs and all the associated costs developed by the women (and men) that manufacture and regulate these ‘realities’ [and thus need to regulate]. And these women are likely employed by the regulators!

    Of course if one works in govt employ, then one can access the benefits of legislated industrial relation tenure, eg working from home on govt subsidised internet (and wage) from their union-guaranteed Fair Work scheme. To implement this ‘innovative’ schema for govt workers, appears rational, backed by ‘evidence’ and policy, even in the absence of data underpinning the argument.

    It would be more useful to do a descriptive study on the demographics of women (and ONLY women) that are employed within government including those employed by organisations that receive govt grants and contribute to national policies and expenditure. And elucidate further on this
    Cf Paul Schauble says: November 8, 2011 at 12:54 am
    Make no mistake, limit energy use that much and slavery will once again be common.

    ferd berple says: November 7, 2011 at 8:23 pm
    Crap.
    The Australian men and women that were busy producing meat, fruit and vegetables and extracting minerals for consumption lived and worked in remote areas. Telecommunication was poor. Communication of words and conversation was shortened for the sake of efficacy. Telecommunication, controlled now by the govt has sought to change that efficacy.

    In regard to the Australian GST (Goods n Service Tax). This 10% tax on TRANSACTIONS was a re-distribution tax designed to benefit the end consumer. Extracted from mining [royalties] of companies that had legacy AT THAT TIME and paid to the Federal govt and then applied by the federal govt to the States and applied for by the States in ‘competitive’ grants in Australia. As are excise on tobacco, alcohol and gambling. And of course fuel. Result????????. Oh, a new re-distribution tax is needed……….now that [legal] tobacco, alcohol and gambling is deigned by ‘research’ to be abhorrent…………. the never ending one of EQUALLY-applied taxation…. AIR…………

    I suspect poor collection and reporting of data was used to support grabbing of these GST monies and then whinging (verifying) poor results in education, health, welfare and employment schemes were those at the forefront dipping endlessly into this bucket of GST.

    malagaview says: November 7, 2011 at 12:12 pm
    Neat, thank you for the youtube clip. Viv Forbes does not farm Border Leicesters, rather Damaras I understand.

  81. kadaka (KD Knoebel) says:
    November 8, 2011 at 1:36 am
    Indonesia, yes he got around to that visit, to the country he spent some time in while growing up. Australia, no. Although there are reports he thinks highly of Australia after studying it’s culture, having once rented Crocodile Dundee, downing a few Foster’s over the years, and stopping by some Outback Steakhouse restaurants when Michelle was hungry for ribs.

    Read the label on a Foster’s in the US. It says “Imported” on the fron in big letters. However, it tastes nothing like a Foster’s. Read the fine print on the back. It is made by Labatts’s under license and imported into the US from Canada. As “Crocodile Dundee” said, you can drink it – but it tastes like shzt.

  82. The usual from dopey green Labor gummint-

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-07/solar-scheme-singed-by-nsw-auditor-general/3639528/?site=sydney

    @Grey lensman apparently has a ‘question’ for the CEO of Qantas-

    “Seeing that you were losing money over a few minor industrial disputes and that you had the strength to do the right thing and shut down the Airline to save it, will you now either sell your international operation or close it, as it is now no longer competitive in the International market due to the carbon tax you have to pay.”

    Not exactly a fair dinkum question, but more a statement of the author’s blinkered views. A ‘few minor industrial disputes’??? More like a concerted campaign by the various airline unions to conduct rolling stoppages with maximum consumer havoc at minimum worker cost in lost wages and they were all planning to ‘bake Qantas slowly’ over the next 12 months to increase their wages even more over current Virgin and Jetstar workers’ rates. Even to the point of haranguing Qantas passengers in flight to fly with other airlines in order to support their cause and this meant a lack of forward bookings saw Qantas actually losing $15mill/week. What real choice did the owners of capital have?

    As for paying a ‘carbon tax’ it remains to be seen if Qantas get exemption/free handouts like the Gillard Govt has given so many ‘big pollooders’ already and in any case Qantas international can fill up their planes in sensible countries or perhaps buy their thin air derivatives for under half price OS presumably. A bulk special discount deal from experienced Nigerian businessmen in these matters should do the trick.

  83. REPLY: Merriam-Webster defines “irregardless” so unless you failed instructions on how to use a dictionary, it exists. . .

    Of course it does. But it is still incorrect. Back in the ’60s or so, it became fashionable to include all manner of popular vernaculars in dictionaries, which up to then had the estimable role of maintaining a literate standard. It was once quite a feat for slang or incorrect usage to achieve enough currency and acceptance to make it into the dictionary—no longer, sad to say.

    Regardless of such deplorable dumbing-down, ‘irregardless’ is still wrong.

    /Mr Lynn

  84. Bluddy well said Viv.

    I take solace in the fact that when the opposition Liberal National coalition is voted into power with Tony Abbott as PM…. This tax on the air that we breath will be rescinded… But not only that, it will soon become apparent that this piece of legislative idiocy is economic suicide and that the whole process was based on flawed science, pseudoscience even……. The truth will win in the end. It has to, or society lives in a lie. A situation that never ends well.

  85. When former Liberal Prime Minister John Howard was about to introduce the Goods and Services Tax some years ago, he had the common decency to at least take it to an election, allowing voters the ability to express their undeniable freedom of choice over the matter.

    This current Green/Labor government is a minority government… it has been well aware that over 70% of the voters are against a carbon tax. The last thing it therefore wanted was the public having a say on the matter. It’s happened because of a freak situation in the political system in Australia that has conspired against the majority.

    Julia Gillard would have lost the election had she not made her now infamous declaration to the Australian people… “There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead”. She gained government only thanks to a couple of turncoat independents, and in exchange for the support of the Greens, she had the audacity to announce days later that there would be a carbon tax.

    Australians have never before felt so badly treated in this way. For a Prime MInister to so blatantly lie, then try and deny what she said, then use the lame excuse of ‘changing circumstances’… it is something the Australian people have not forgiven or forgotten.

    Well… come the next election, the Gillard Green/Labor government will certainly learn that hell hath no fury as a voting-public scorned!

  86. 3×2 says: “I have a pet green activist (UK) who seems to think that the population of the UK should be around 2 million if we are to avoid planetary meltdown…”

    I have also heard this daftness proposed. I think it comes from a reduction proportional to the global ‘ideal’ population. It pays no regard to the efficiencies of scale that Britain and the world derive from a larger population. The last time Britain had such a small population was the early middle ages. Nine hundred years ago there was no electricity, no gas, virtually no made-up roads, no rail, no mains water, no sewage system, no healthcare, no telecoms, no police, etc. Of course, all of these things now exist, but whether we could afford them is another matter. What infrastructure 1/30th of the current population could afford I have no idea, probably a lot less than 1/30th of what we have now.

  87. Infant mortality rates were horrendous and the parents were lucky to live past 40. if the harvest failed you starved. famines killed millions. In cold winters you froze to death.

    Only go back 60 years ago and look at China when it had one of the lowest carbon footprints in the world.

  88. Lazy Teenager needs to start reading more. The most energy efficient users on the planet in the amount of GDP created per unit of energy is… the USA.

    Everybody is more wasteful than the USA.

  89. I’m considering pulling up the tent pegs and moving overseas, to where hard work, honesty, initiative and common sense gets just rewards.

    Australia has become too suffocating. The parliamentary majority rules a big country with small minds.

  90. @Jim Turner,

    Ask your de-populating acquaintance to name the 28 other people who are to be eliminated and the method of elimination. Perhaps on their Facebook page.

    Not only do the de-populators fail to recognize that society needs a lot of people to work; the people that are here, are still people. Individuals with aspirations, skills and most of them, enough common sense not to talk such rubbish.

  91. Observa

    Is that not just what Juliar, “No Carbon Tax on my watch” plans for all, Maximum disruption plus its a tax on emissions not fuel. So my point is if he has the get up and go to face his workers, surely he should also lay down the Gauntlet for the “No carbon tax on my watch” woman.

  92. Bernd Felsche says:
    November 8, 2011 at 9:15 am
    I’m considering pulling up the tent pegs and moving overseas, to where hard work, honesty, initiative and common sense gets just rewards.
    ____
    Hmmm…when you find such a place, do let us know where it is…

  93. Gail Combs says:
    November 7, 2011 at 5:49 pm

    [Actually, I'm not sure who said this]

    For one thing what ever happen to “Built to Last” The stuff made before the 1960′s was well built and expected to last, now I swear much of the stuff is ENGINEERED to break within a couple of years.

    In the 1960s in NE Ohio our cars lasted about 5 years and 83,000 miles before the salt rusted out the body.

    My current car, a Saturn SL2, is 12 years old, has 305,000 miles on it, and has a few rust spots on the hood. A lot of minor things are wearing out, but the motor and transmission are original and good for a while longer.

  94. In one of the earliest posts, Fred from Canuckistan wrote: “lots of people in Connecticut are living in Earth Day meets Groundhog Day right now. Wonder how happy they are to be living “green” ?”

    Personally, I spent five days without power. Today, ten days after the storm, more than 12,000 families are still without electricity. Is everyone unhappy? Of course. But does anyone draw a connection between their present situation and the inescapable consequences of abandoning electric power generation? Absolutely not.

    I can tell you from first hand experience that no one I’ve talked with can understand that this experience will become commonplace within a decade or two. Connecticut gets half of its baseline electric generation from the Millstone III nuclear power plant, which is already well beyond its design life. The entire long term energy “plan” of the Connecticut legislature comes down to an assumption that Millstone III will keep generating forever. In the meantime, there is no realistic planning for the decade after the nuke has to be shut down eventually.

  95. What was unsurprising but nevertheless arrogant to the extreme was the Greens leader’s reponse to the passing of the legislation:

    ‘Greens leader Bob Brown insisted it was an historic day for Australia and the seven billion people on the planet.

    “What we are doing here today is legislating … to hold back the great nemesis of climate change for the whole future of humanity and indeed our millions of fellow species on this planet,“ he said to cheers from the public gallery.’
    Source: http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/11476302/carbon-tax-to-become-law/

    Aren’t you glad we Aussies are here to save the world?

    BTW Anthony, Matt was not implying you are a drunk, “fair suck of the sav” (or sauce bottle) is just another variant of “fair go” and has nothing to do with booze, unless your mate is hogging it all perhaps.

  96. OT perhaps, but an interesting comment IMO. I can tell you last night in Sydney here in Australia was VERY humid and sticky.

    http://www.smh.com.au/environment/weather/sydney-swelters-through-sticky-night-20111110-1n82w.html

    From the article…

    “The daytime heat has been hanging around into the night for the past couple of days because of a high pressure system in the Tasman Sea, putting extra moisture to the air.

    “Extra moisture in the air means that temperatures stay warm overnight,” she said.”

    Is this confirmation moisture/water vapour IS the main warming driver in the atmosphere?

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