WUWT reader “bouldersolar” writes in with this and a couple of photos, which I’ve combined into one.
In Colorado I got back almost $50,000 from the state and federal governments to buy this car.
Before you think this is just too ridiculous to be true, read this article.
This stems from a comment he made a couple of days ago on WUWT:
Speaking of annoying people with your Tesla. As a Tesla owner in Boulder Colorado I have a bumper sticker on it that says” Environmentalists took money from the poor to pay me to buy this car”
I am amazed at the violent reaction I get from all those Boulder peace loving non violent progressives to this message.
Nikola Tesla was one of the 20th century great scientists and inovators, but he was nearly destroyed by Edison’s desire for monopoly of the electricity supply.
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/Nikola%20Tesla.htm
It is time that Tesla is give the rightful place in the American text-books.
That’s great! Thanks, Anthony and Bouldersolar. I hope you don’t have to make up that discount in fixing keyed doors and such, especially considering the difficulty in self-control these “non-violent” peace-nicks seem to have. And heaven forbid you have to deal with an NYPD OWS “paint job”. But, I wouldn’t put it past the warm-fuzzy, what’s-so-funny-about-peace-love-and-understanding contingent.
All I want to know, is the car all it’s cracked up to be?
I’m surprised you haven’t already found a large scratch or dent in it.
Narcissists react badly to criticism.
Classic Robin Hood…Steal from the poorr and give to the rich 🙂
It would be funny if I wasn’t borrowing money to pay my electric bill. I was/ am on the “level pay” plan but my bill increased so much last year, I have a balloon payment of over $700.00. God bless deregulation and Mother California.
PERFECT!
I don’t blame this guy one bit for taking advantage of this rediculous rebate. I would too.
Well on second thought, actually I wouldn’t, there is no way to get around the fact that its still an electric car. You couldn’t pay me enough to buy one.
Similar to how the German feed-in tariff of 3.5 cent/kWh rips off the poor to pay for the solar installations of home owners. A form of degressive taxation. It’s funny how the Greens never protest against this.
BTW; I’ve repeatedly stated that a Watt-peak of solar installation is about 2.40 EUR ATM here in Germany, and accidentally I found a chart that shows the price development over the last 5 years and comfirms my data. Prices have fallen by 50% over the last 5 years.
http://www.solaranlage.eu/photovoltaik/preise
It’s not a Moore’s Law but economies of scale, globalisation and process improvements that are the reasons for this, but anyhow, I expect it to continue with 50% per 5 years; it did that for two decades now.
My car is apolitical. I don’t want some angry jerk to take out his political frustrations on it.
A breakdown of where the money came from would be interesting. For example rebate, tax deduction, how much from state, how much from federal, etc.?
You might want to avoid any of the Occupy locations right now, I hear there is a lot of anger in being displaced this morning…
Lolworthy, ridiculous and entirely predictable. But then, it makes me wonder a bit – taking into account the less-than-green sources of electricity used to power this thingamajig, wouldn’t a Lotus Elise (especially in the new, cheaper and less planet-warming 1.6 litre version) actually score better on the eco-meter?
Drive an electric car up and down a mountain road near Boulder ane tell us how far you get before it needs a battery recahrge. If there’s a fast electric-recharge station anywhere around before the battery dies, let us know how long it takes before you an get moving again.
In the words of Arthur Guiness….BRILLIANT!
And to think people wonder why the economy is so screwed up.
Nice car, one-third subsidised by the state. Great, it’s like being a politician! Does it have a horn that blasts “Get out of the way, peasants!!” as well?
So – how is the car? A fast golf-cart? or worthy of the poor’s investment?
While I appreciate the comedy found in environmentalist/liberal financials, I could not pull the drigger on this. We all paid for this. You are welcome.
Robin Hood “took from the rich and gave to the poor” (keeping a bit for himself :^).
Our “environmentalist” politicos take from both the rich and poor who pay taxes and give to the politically-connected who are clever enough to cloak their greed under the “save the Earth” banner.
The “environmentalist” politicos and their politically-connected friends in companies and big labor are uninhibited by their total lack of understanding of basic physics and economics and engineering and elementary ethics (and they keep on getting re-elected using political donations and influence peddling and getting richer off the public dole. 🙁 Can you spell Solyndra?
Ira Glickstein
I drive a Lincoln Towncar, much to the scorn of the greenies. But they seem envious.
The “poor” don’t pay much if anything in income taxes. The shrinking middle class OTOH…
Tesla’a greatest problem was having J.P.Morgan as his “backer”. Edison may have envied and despised him for his inventiveness (Thomas A. was a notorious empiricist without much else than trials ad nauseam to back his “genius”.) Westinghouse may have given him short shrift for the AC patents (but the pittance was still not bad $$ for the day) but Morgan, upon finding out that Tesla wanted to transmit electricity so as to be readily available to ANY user….that was blasphemy in JP’s book and he pulled the plug (sorry about that…lol) on Wardenclyffe and poor old Nikola went on to pigeon-feeding and theorizing about the number 3.
That’s neither a sticker nor located on his bumper. Given that level of “dumb”, I presume this person won the lottery or inherited a great deal of money. Anyone who thinks that “paper taped to rear window” is a “bumper sticker” could not possibly have personally earned enough to buy one of these cars.
He should just leave the car unlocked with the key in the ignition(???). That way everybody who paid for it would theoretically get a chance to drive it.
I am moving to Colorado and buying one! WOW!
What i always find so amazing is how the Commie Socialist Progressive Leftist Democrats continually claim that it is the Right that is in the pocket of and taking care of the wealthy in the country. In reality most of the money that flows through the government to upper income groups and individuals does so as a result of programs that originated from the Left. Nearly 2/3rds of what the government does is to cut checks to people and most of that goes to people who, by any rational measure, have incomes which indicate they shouldn’t be eligible for subsidy. Back when the debt ceiling charade was in full bloom, Thomas Sowell had a column where he suggested one good way to get us well on the way to a balanced budget would be for the government to just quit writing checks to millionaires and billionaires.
Even the Left’s most sacred of sacred cows, Social Security and Medicare. is about as regressive a system as one could design, even if that were your intent in the first place. The lowly burger flipper ( as an aside, I see that fast food places in North Dakota are offering up to $15.00/hr to start because the ongoing boom in OIL drilling has made it nearly impossible to attract applicants. So much for GREEN ENERGY JOBS.) pays a full 15.3% of his meager wages in payroll taxes, but because the tax is capped at $105,000, the person at the threshold of the top 1%, who earned $335,000 in 2009, pays a 4.8% rate. Of course it declines dramatically for the rest of the segment. Although AARP’s stereotype of old folks is that they are all one government check away from eating Alpo in a refrigerator box under a bridge somewhere, almost true in my own case.. the reality is that old crocks are the wealthiest of the age demographics and the Dems’ crown jewel has been systematically redistributing wealth from the poor and downtrodden to much richer old crocks on golf courses in expensive retirement communities in Florida for decades.
Ag subsidies, supposed to save the family farmer, go almost without exception to giant agro firms. Green energy stimulus money went to billionaire political contributors, no garage based innovators need apply. I could go on but my anger is dissipating.
What is most amazing is the number of people who still buy into the notion that any politician actually “cares” a jot for any lower income folks. except as they constitute a reliable voting block for their reelection.
It worse than you think Anthony
Tesla’s June 30, 2011 accounts (available at Investor Relations at the Tesla web site) show accumulated losses of $522,175,000. Since inception in 2003, Tesla had delivered 1840 roadsters world wide at June 30.
That’s a loss of $283,790.76 per car! Despite revenue of circa $100,000 per car!
So, tell me again, how much subsidy did Henry Ford’s customers get when they bought model ‘T’s?
Hmm. Colorado is a great place to live, but it get stranger and stranger.
Yesterday’s Denver Business Journal:
Notwithstanding the foreboding sense of deja vu from the Solyndra debacle, ten states “wanted this” project – it must be a good thing that we got it… (right?) Well, I hope GE can do what the government couldn’t.
Then there’s:
Colorado panel debates stoned-driving threshold
http://www.denverpost.com/news/marijuana/ci_18848981?source=pkg
Sure hope they work this one out. It should make people think twice about taking that extra “hit”.
Last but not least, there’s:
Colorado approves two leases for Christo river project
Citing potential revenue, the state land board agrees to open up 7.7 acres for canopies over the Arkansas River. http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_19067783
Next up: Using pink, 3-ply ultrasoft, Christo and his life partner will t-p Colorado State capitol building.
More on the tesla:
$43000 State, $7500 Federal rebate. I won’t be paying state income tax for a while. Car has been keyed and superglued. (Superglued the button). Sign was on the outside but was constantly ripped off so I put it on the inside window. When I drive it in Jefferson County instead of Boulder I get a lot of thumbs up reaction to the sign.
Benn driving he Tesla non stop to Steamboat Springs which is 176 miles and two mountain passes from Boulder. i Arrive with a third of a “tank”. Never had “range anxiety” with this car. Once on the way back raced a Porsche turbo “whale tail” up to Eisenhower tunnel and beat him. Car is charged 100% by solar along with my present RAV4 and the previous EV1 I had. Fantastic acceleration and performance. (The “Tesla grin” is due to the g forces acting on your face when you floor it). I recommend anybody looking for a high performance gas two seater to buy this instead even if you don’t get a rebate and are not an “environmentalist”.
Felt guilty about the rebate and sent the proceeds to the local EFAA charity.
Only slightly OT….. finally we have a politician stating what needs to be stated.
“I do not accept the premise, I do not accept the choice, that we must pick between energy and the environment.”
“His [Obama] energy policies are driven by the concerns of activists in his party. My policies are driven by the concerns of American workers without jobs.”
Whether you like the messenger or not, don’t let this message become muted.
http://suyts.wordpress.com/2011/10/14/finally/
Re Robin Hood & rich/poor.
According to legend, he took it from the local tax-collector and returned it to the overtaxed populus.
Bouldersolar says:
October 14, 2011 at 11:11 am
“Car is charged 100% by solar along with my present RAV4 and the previous EV1 I had.”
Could you describe the system(s) that allow you to accomplish this.
Bouldersolar – thanks for the update on the performance.
How long does re-charging take? I guess you have to be storing your solar charge somewhere or do you have the Tesla at home during the day?
Anyone earning over a certain income should be MADE to purchase one of those things – without any subsidies attached.
It’s the only way to advertise how ridiculous those electric carts really are in real world motoring.
It reminds me of the anti-hero Superciuk from Alan Ford comics, who steals from poor people and gives to rich, like an anti-Robin Hood of sorts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Ford_%28comics%29
I breezed over to the Tesla site and found these numbers:
300Wh/mile (188Wh/km). Multiply 300Wh/mile (188Wh/km) by your daily driving distance to estimate your daily vehicle energy consumption.
I wonder now what the storage capacity of the battery bank on that car is ? I assume I’d like to be able to drive 600 miles in a day, for instance driving over to ski in Utah from my home in Nevada. Could it do that ? The SUV I drive does it in two tanks of gas, figure 40 gallons of regular unleaded..
Required reading for those participating in electric car debates:
Who are the biggest electric car liars – the BBC, or Tesla Motors? http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/01/18/bbc_tesla_edinburgh_e_car_shenanigans/page4.html
Bottom line: London to Edinburgh (roughly LA to San Francisco or New York City to Buffalo) in 19 hours despite prepositioning two high capacity charging stations.
@M.A.Vukcevic says:
October 14, 2011 at 9:56 am
He really was a genius. The Tesla thing is a dishonour to his name.
Gary says:
October 14, 2011 at 10:39 am
The “poor” don’t pay much if anything in income taxes. The shrinking middle class OTOH…
Income tax is not the only tax. As far as I know you don’t have VAT (value added tax) in the United States but don’t you have other sales taxes? In Britain it is not unusual for relatively poor people to pay a greater percentage of their income in taxes of all kinds than the rich who can employ lawyers and accountants to advise them on tax dodges. The impact of “green” taxes will probably be greater on the relatively poor too. I would be surprised if the situation is very different in the United States.
Based on the Boulder – Steamboat numbers cited above, I would need a bit more that 2X the existing capacity in that car. I wonder what the “S” sedan would do?
Range on the sports car seems to be a bit better than 260 miles. And then how long does it take to “fill the tank” on conventional 110 VAC ?
I assume that the car comes with an inverter to be able to feed off of conventional voltage sources.
@M.A.Vukcevic says:
Technically, it was Marconi and David Sarnoff who did in Tesla when they beat his radio patent fight with their much deeper pockets.
As for the car pissing off hippies–excellent. It pisses me off that our taxes paid for it. They should “share the wealth.”
I live in Boulder too and am amazed at your bravery. I knew someone with a Hummer who was constantly harassed. He joined a volunteer fire dept so he could have a fire fighter license plate to polish his image. No luck, saving homes & human lives wasn’t enough, he was still hated. Then he added a large decal for Animal Rescue and was beloved.
Bouldersolar says:
October 14, 2011 at 11:11 am
Awesome! Thanks for the road report. Don’t think I can afford one though :^(
It’s a shame we can’t broadcast power to a Tesla on the road.
Ira Glickstein, PhD says: “Robin Hood “took from the rich and gave to the poor” (keeping a bit for himself :^).
A guy’s gotta live, yaknow? Those bowstrings and arrows are exPENsive! Not to mention beer, green camo duds, beer, medical insurance, beer. Early on, he tried taking from the poor and giving to the rich (keeping a bit for himself), but it didn’t work out, for some reason. We don’t need Robin Hood, any more. We have the government.
Yay, Glick!!!
Pretty car, but I won’t be trading my Gallardo.
It is a beautiful car and all it needs is a credible power train to make it into a car people want. There is always the question of how this light car holds up in a crash, and the cost of insurance. You have to wonder how many of those left greenies giving this guy grief depend only on a green battery propelled car.
What is the Tesla’s range during use on cold winter nights?
Gras Albert, as I recall Al Gore is a major investor in Tesla, and Tesla received financial support from the US Government in the form of “stimulus grants and/or loan guarantees. Am I wrong? If not, Rep Issa should investigate Tesla, which appears headed for bankruptcy, before any more taxpayer money is squandered on this loser.
In contrast to whom exactly?
I see these repeated ‘claims’, these assertions without cite constantly almost as if it were a without-basis OWS chant …
Dealing in the applied field of EM theory, there is one little-used unit and no ‘effects’ bearing his name (The “Tesla”: “SI derived unit of magnetic field B, known as ‘magnetic flux density’ ” with one tesla is equal to one weber per square meter which was defined so in 1960). Also 1 tesla is equivalent to 10,000 G (gauss) in the CGS system.
Maxwell and Faraday certainly occupy slightly higher rungs on the ladder I think. Maybe even Marconi and Hertz. The elevation of Tesla seems more to be a ‘hobbyist thing’ (think: pop-culture, maybe high-school-science geek thing), what with the “Tesla coil” and the awesome display it is capable of and all …
.
Boulder is solidly on the left. This means that they support unions, like the UAW. But when you drive around Boulder, foreign cars, especially German and Swedish cars, dominate. If you are a left wing pseudo intellectual and your driving status symbols clash with your politics, well, so be it.
Fortunately, I’m in Jefferson county, and so I’d be one of the guys giving his sign the thumbs up.
Dave Wendt says (October 14, 2011 at 11:01 am): “What i always find so amazing is how the Commie Socialist Progressive Leftist Democrats continually claim that it is the Right that is in the pocket of and taking care of the wealthy in the country. In reality most of the money that flows through the government to upper income groups and individuals does so as a result of programs that originated from the Left.”
Well put, Dave. Who in his right mind thinks the government can spend his money bettter than he can?
If I were a believer in conspiracies I would think that “Bouldersolar” had an econonmic stake in Tesla from his avid promotion of this car. But I am not so I won’t.
As the locals say, It’s to damn bad that Colorado’s become Californicated.
_Jim says:
October 14, 2011 at 1:32 pm
In contrast to whom exactly?
It says
Nikola Tesla was one of the 20th century great scientists and…
not greater then… , not greatest, just one of ..
No contrasting is required, Tesla was great scientist and great inventor but unfortunately poor businessman. In Europe at the time, scientific competence was far more important then business acumen.
Don’t know what is your point, unless you whish to show that all scientists you mentioned are Europeans. Tesla was European too, and if he worked in Europe it is possible that last 30 years of his life (and possibly world state of technology) would have been that much richer.
The electric car to own will be the new Tesla Model S with the largest capacity battery pack.
That car is more than just an electric – it’s a great car. Cost for the 170 mile version : $57,500,
the 245 mile version : 67,500, and $77,500 for the 320 mile version. Can recharge in under 45 minutes at level 3 (three phase). Fed tax rebate on any electric is $7500. Sport version can
run zero to sixty in under 4.5 seconds – faster than a Corvette or Porsche 911. Don’t bother with any of the other sub-100 mile range electrics – they can only function as a second car. Tesla did
get a loan from the Feds but, unlike GM, taxpayer money was not used to buy shares in the company. Tesla has already sold out their first half year’s production (due to begin mid-2012) – 6500 have forked over $5,000 apiece to reserve a car. Tesla operated by Elon Musk, founder of PayPal.
DirkH says:
October 14, 2011 at 10:13 am
“Similar to how the German feed-in tariff of 3.5 cent/kWh rips off the poor to pay for the solar installations of home owners. A form of degressive taxation. It’s funny how the Greens never protest against this.”
The Greens are not about helping the poor. The Greens are about securing the authority necessary to guarantee the birth rights of our Ruling Elite. Those rights are being secured against the poor, among others. Those rights include the right to a healthy, pleasant, unchanging climate.
Greens get upset when the harm that they do the poor is criticized in public. They get really, really upset because the poor have been one of their sacred cows for at least fifty years and they just cannot come clean and let that symbolism go.
Tilo Reber says:
October 14, 2011 at 1:34 pm
“Boulder is solidly on the left. This means that they support unions, like the UAW. But when you drive around Boulder, foreign cars, especially German and Swedish cars, dominate. If you are a left wing pseudo intellectual and your driving status symbols clash with your politics, well, so be it.”
“Mercedes Marxists” is what we called them in the 1970’s. There were quite a few of them even then. Many of them were tenured professors who were declared Marxists and one of them published a Marxist journal.
As regards German cars, especially Mercedes and BMW, a friend of mine once remarked that “In Germany there is a reason for owning such cars; you can drive them 180 mph on the Autobahn.”
I can beat that. I got a 12KW PV solar setup installed at my house where the local municipality provided an 85% instant rebate. The FED provided an additional 30% tax credit.
I keep hearing that Solar PV doesn’t have a reasonable ROI. I just don’t understand /sarc
How much of a tax credit could I get for this? A newFerrari Enzo was selling for about $500,000. (Used are now in the millions.) I imagine a new hybrid version will be a bit more.
Ferrari Enzo successor powered by V12 hybrid, next 599 to get 700+ hp
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/10/06/ferrari-enzo-successor-powered-by-v12-hybrid-next-599-to-get-70/
It’s a good story, but be clear about the accounting here. The savings came from federal and state tax credits and/or deductions. As the Supreme Court has recently affirmed, income that the state declines to collect in taxes, for whatever reason, is not public money, and no money was transferred from poor people to the purchaser. Of course the purchaser paid lower taxes than someone like him who did not purchase a Tesla, and by how much is quite astounding.
Hard to explain that on a bumper sticker, though.
Is there anybody from Arizona on this thread?
I remember the state of Arizona was offering a rebate, or tax credit, to buyers of vehicles that ran on alternative fuels. (Approx. 1999-2000) Propane and natural gas being the preferred fuels. But the rebate was a big percentage of the selling price, and people started buying very expensive SUVs and motor homes because sellers would slap an alternative fuel kit onto any vehicle. This scheme cost the Arizona government a lot of money.
Can anybody confirm this?
_Jim says: October 14, 2011 at 1:32 pm
In contrast to whom exactly?
Jim, I researched Tesla earlier this year, following a prompt. I knew next to nothing about him when I started, just kinda rumours. I was gobsmacked. He really is one of the greatest scientists of all time, seriously underestimated by conventional science, because (like Newton) he had some “funny” areas of interest – and, imho, because he knew more than the government wanted known. His material was pinched by both Marconi and Edison who became famous for what Tesla really discovered, and the government >HAARP etc. I have a feeling he even beat Einstein somehow. Sorry this is all memory. Tesla was co-opted into the US military programme in WW2 but ducked out as he saw them working with stuff far more dangerous than they understood – the Philadelphia project. Please don’t just laugh at me. Research Tesla carefully and dig deeper than both his detractors and his adulators. He was breaking “laws of science” all over the place. His pigeon fancying was a cover. His heart was in the right place, he had scruples and ethics. He had a phenomenal power of visualization so never drew diagrams and plans, just made stuff direct that he knew would work. My memory serves me well, in essence if not in detail.
_Jim says:
October 14, 2011 at 1:32 pm
Jim, Tesla was an engineer. He invented the all the parts of the 20th Century electrical power system – alternators, motors, transformers etc over a few days. That, even if he didn’t do anything else, is his claim to fame. He also invented radio BTW. There’s a book about him called
“The Man Who Invented the 20th Century”.
As for Tesla motors, even really smart guys like Elon Musk sometimes do stupid things. When the scam goes bust I hope Spacex can be kept going and Elon keeps running it. Oh well D.D. Harriman had to run a scam in “The Man Who Sold The Moon”.
Range in cold: Went to south Denver to pick up son when temp was 37 degrees. Started with 3/4 charge. 105 mile round trip on 65 mph roads. No problem. When I go to steamboat it can be below freezing at the passes. One thing to remember is that the lower density air in Colorado gets you 20% more range at highway speeds compared to sea level. Thats one reason I had the range record for the lead acid EV1. I use approximately 300 kwh a month driving both electric cars. Net efficiency at the AC line is about 400 wH/mile. 15 kw solar panels and 3 kw wind powers cars and all electric household.
I do not work for Tesla or have any connection with them. Met Elon Musk once and we talked about his Falcon jet he uses. 0.4 miles per gallon but can carry 13.
M.A.Vukcevic says:
October 14, 2011 at 9:56 am
I don’t know as much about Tesla as I should, but I did know Edison’s eldest daughter who was my grandmother’s next door neighbor and best friend. Please forgive the bias.
The Edison-DC/Tesla-AC thing was a spat that’s been repeated many times over history. New fields like power production, radio, computers, etc seem to be the most rough and tumble. The inventor of several other key radio improvements like FM and superheterodyne receivers, Edwin Howard Armstrong, got shoved aside by Lee De Forest and RCA.
http://www.ccrane.com/library/fm-invention.09.09.02.aspx
Most recently, the there are several good companies that were wiped out by Microsoft. The usual pattern was the company creates something, it gets attention, Microsoft wants it and the choices are either sell the company for much less than it’s worth or be stomped out of existence by the two ton Gorilla doing their own thing. Sometimes Microsoft would just do the latter and block the competition. Like Word Perfect and Netscape.
http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/2280/can-microsofts-success-be-attributed-to-their-abuse-of-a-monopoly
Yeah, Tesla got a raw deal, but it had more to do with his lack of cutthroat business sense for the times at hand than all the other cutthroats out there. Those times weren’t that different than these times.
Talk to Tim Ball.
Bouldersolar-
Are you getting close to the Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster quoted- “According to the U.S. EPA, the Roadster can travel 244 miles (393 km) on a single charge[12]”?
Per Wikipedia you use about “21.7 kW·h/100 miles” Does this sound about right to you?
It looks like you can charge up for about a $1.00 an hour at a few spots in Boulder-
“On Wednesday, the city began catering to that vision with the installation of the first two public electric vehicle charging stations. http://www.dailycamera.com/boulder-county-news/ci_18655012
At a total cost of $31,000, the stations were installed at the South Boulder Recreation Center parking lot. On Monday, the stations will be switched on and made available for drivers of plug-in cars to rent for $1 per hour.
The stations will cost the city about 90 cents per hour to operate, but because the city can’t legally re-sell electricity, it will instead charge a $1 “service fee” to rent a radio frequency card that operates one of the stations.
“(Recreation center users) can just come up to the service desk there and request a card,” said Joe Castro, Boulder’s facility and fleet manager.
Castro said the two stations have the ability to charge up to four vehicles at the same time, and include both 240-volt and 110-volt hookups.”
It looks like your charging stations are giving you a free ride as far as transportation taxes/fees go- Colorado charges petrol transportation fees/taxes of $.404 gallon.
It isn’t just the Tesla. Same thing with the Chevy Volt, too. Check this out from a Congressman who also happens to be a Chevy dealer:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/10/chevy-dealing-congressman-there-is-no-market-for-the-volt/
Basically you have very rich people buying the Volt on the backs of the middle class who are forced to fork across a subsidy.
I wonder, is the guy between the s and l the one snapping the picture or the one going: WTF wasn’t this supposed to be cordless? :p
Electric cars are not a scam. They actually work. And, within their range limits, work well. The top end ones, like the Tesla, have all the acceleration (and some) and power of their equivalent petrol versions.
I accept that there is no excuse to force people into electric cars by tax rebates (either on the car or on the electricity) but that is no excuse to heap shame on the manufacturers of the Tesla. They are just making a car. Quite a good car.
Lots of towns run electric trolley-buses or trams. The fastest trains in the world are all electrically driven. No-one seems to think they are ridiculous.
But they can not be deployed at any significant scale. You can not move any significant amount of energy consumption from gasoline (oil) to electricity (mostly coal) while you have an EPA that is at this moment getting ready to take 28 gigawatts of power off the grid.
http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/2011/10/07/ier-identifies-coal-fired-power-plants-likely-to-close-as-result-of-epa-regulations/
That is roughly equal to the entire nuclear generation capacity of the United States. You can not take that much power off the grid and at the same time migrate energy from petroleum to electricity. It can not be done, it is simply physically impossible. If EPA goes ahead with this, we are not going to have enough electricity to power our laptops, let alone our cars. Rolling blackouts will become the norm. People HAVE to get back and forth to work but the traffic lights won’t be working either.
We have the most incompetent, naive administration in history.
highest recommendation: http://www.teslashop.us/
see also: http://teslatech.info/index.html
Adam Kokesh has captured a couple of priceless examples of just how nasty today’s green fascists have become: http://www.adamvstheman.com/
Are you ppl simply reading some of the pap appearing on the web?
Ever read any of the books about him (PRE history-warping internet)?
I’d like you guys to point out any significant papers he wrote, while alive, too. Something on a par with, oh, the works of Maxwell maybe …
.
Mostly on groundwork laid by others; still not seeing a the wealth of evidence that would place him on a pedestal. You pen those words as if you are rendering ‘an enlightenment’, whereas in actuality it is a ‘repeat performance of a long-playing act’ …
Maybe it’s just that what he did, which was a little more concrete and understandable by the more common man, perhaps in the vein of a Steve Jobs who made practical use of technology for the masses?
He was a showman as well, you are aware of the public demonstrations he put on?
You all (Y’all) are also aware that some of the ideas he had also did not/have not panned out?
I will ask you the same Q I posed to Lucy: Have you read any volumes (books) on Tesla aside from the usual Inet stuff?
.
I am still curious who else you would include in this category?
Edwin Armstrong maybe? Are you aware of his original contributions in the 20th century?
.
“That car is more than just an electric – it’s a great car. Cost for the 170 mile version : $57,500”
Um, yeah.
Meanwhile a Civic costs half as much, goes around five hundred miles on a ‘charge’ of gasoline and refuels in a few minutes rather than a few hours.
… and works when the power is off. Could you imagine having to evacuate a coastal area during a hurricane in an electric car? Or imagine power being off someplace for a week. I could run a generator at a gas station to pump fuel, I would need dozens of generators running for hours to charge the cars in the neighborhood. They are fine vehicles for making a short commute if you charge them at night when the grid is mostly hydro/nuclear. If you are charging them during the daytime, you basically have a coal powered car.
“All I want to know, is the car all it’s cracked up to be?”
I can’t completely answer that but… a very good friend of mine recently purchased a Tesla roadster and he took me for a ride in it. All I can say is that when he punched it, I laughed like I haven’t since I was stealing bases in kickball when I was in 2nd grade.
Subarus make up a significant fraction of cars driven in Boulder, and Colorado for that matter. Their 2012 R1e is no Tesla.
@ Jim; I suggest you study the patents of Tesla as well as the setup of his experiments and the devices he created for test equipment in an era before electronic test equipment.
I am an electrical engineer and inventor. I have studied the works and notes of Nikola Tesla, Awesome is a good discription. pg
Gras Albert says:
October 14, 2011 at 11:02 am
A cursory peek and I wonder why no one is banging the ‘going concern’ gong on this company.
Here we go again … more ‘allusions’ to ___________ (this can vary; fill in the blank as required). (Psst, also, pls note name is “_Jim” since we have so many)
Mods, Anthony – Would anybody mind if I post an excerpt from a Don Lancaster work that addresses some of these ‘issues’, since Don ‘puts it so well’? Some of the following might ‘smart’ a little, but, there is so much dis- and misinformation about Tesla and his discoveries, one must start somewhere to defuse and refute the dis/misinfo parts.
The following is excerpted from: http://www.tinaja.com/glib/muse90.pdf The words below are those of Don Lancaster with whom I agree:
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
Every time that I mention his name [Tesla] in print, I get bunches of static from card carrying members of the Cult of the Latter Day Teslaites.
Along with hundreds of pages of dreary and poorly thought out “looks like a duck and quacks like a duck” incoherent pseudoscience drivel. Based on my extensive study and review, here’s how I see things:
– Yes, Tesla was one of the superbly brilliant engineers of all time. Tesla’s developments of the induction motor, polyphase ac machinery, and the ac transformer do remain crucial keys to nearly everything electrical.
– Yes, Tesla was treated unfairly by history. Grossly so. Caused mostly by being at war with Tesla’s native country and the blatant propaganda of Edison’s humongous PR mill.
– No, Tesla was not original in his explorations of fluorescent lighting or radio. He was one of many sources working on these topics.
As with any product developer, the way you get a few brilliant ideas is to start off with bunches of lousy ones. Eventually something will stick to the ceiling. For every good idea, there are zillions of bad ones.
There is not one scrap of credible evidence that shows Tesla had any “free” earth resonance energy. This was just an uncompleted experiment that was virtually certain of failure.
There was apparently some major confusion between resonant energy buildup and a true energy sourcing.
Caused in part by Tesla being one brilliant experimenter but a terrible theoretician. You’ll also find strong evidence of earth resonance being a lab funding scam.
A piggy bank may have hundreds of dollars in it, but they got there a nickel and a dime at a time. It’s the same with resonance. You can build up lots and lots of resonant energy a little bit at a time. And you could remove that energy very quickly. But you’ll never get back any more than was put in. You most certainly can not sustain continuous removal.
– – – – – – – – – – – –
Bolding in the above added by me.
I might make one more post on this, this evening, a post which would contain some
book titles (authoritative ‘works’) both by Tesla or about Tesla by reputable authors.
.
“Boulder is solidly on the left. This means that they support unions, like the UAW. But when you drive around Boulder, foreign cars, especially German and Swedish cars, dominate. If you are a left wing pseudo intellectual and your driving status symbols clash with your politics, well, so be it.”
I’ve noticed that, myself. When you begin to drive around a new area you can uaually guess the voting patterns by the vehicles you see on the road. Right of centre voting areas are filled with American branded automobiles “Progressive” voting areas, not so much. I find this ironic since American brands are mostly built with unionized labor. Has anyone ever done a study on vehicle registrations or is this just one of those anecdotal urban myths?
Even with the rediculous rebate there is just no way that car is anywhere close to competitive for price or anything else. A $42,000 rebate is only 38% of the cost? The price of these things is an idiot tax.
Bouldersolar;
Once on the way back raced a Porsche turbo “whale tail” up to Eisenhower tunnel and beat him. >>>
Hardly fair. You’ve got about $100,000 in tax payer funded performance improvements in your car. If the Porsche had the same, he’d have had time to get to the tunnel, turn around, and meet you half way.
Seriously, great sense of humour, that sticker says something that needs to be said, and the fact that you get to say it by driving around in a way cool car makes the rich, the poor, the green and the not so green all jealous, and all for completely opposing reasons. Genius!
I rather prefer my Columbia (now Cessna) 400; only about 15 MPG, but that’s at 200kts (230MPH) 🙂
t_a_harvey says:
It’s a good story, but be clear about the accounting here. The savings came from federal and state tax credits and/or deductions… no money was transferred from poor people to the purchaser.
Nice try, but this is essentially a subsidized purchase using public funds that would otherwise go towards benefitting the poor among other things. However you feel the “accounting” goes, poor people are “paying” this subsidy.
Tesla invented polyphase electric motors.
There are only about 15000 of them at the site I work at.
Jim you are an goddamn idiot.
Tesla did work in many fields of resonance energy, steam, electrical, machanical. I don’t recall any claim of free energy, just resonance feed back and peaking. NO FREE LUNCH. The Tesla coil was not supposed to be a spark coil. That is just for show. Sparks are a waste of power.
Much of the opinions about Tesla of Don Lancaster above are correct.
I would suspect that Tesla would consider “the Tesla car” to be not much more then a rich mans toy and of no use to the people. pg
@M.A.Vukcevic (but mostly targeting Tesla detractors)
Your absolutely right on Tesla, the fact that this guy was a genious is undeniable. I always been mystified in the past about why Tesla had so many detractors (and still has as I see) & little recognition while he had done so much for our modern way of life. The best explanation of it is, thanks for the IPCC for the perfect exemple, is the buoyancy principle: The lighter they are, the higher they goes… The heavyweight however…
Tesla in fact was an incredible achiever, just think of the DC power distribution of the time, w/t poles so full of wire they could barely stand & incapable at acheiving long distance. Tesla created AC distribution system & I’m pretty sure the optimized 60Hz value come from him! Any idea what was the Edison “solution”: Public elephant electrocution to demonstrate how dangerous AC was… an experiment of scientific “value” comparable to a famous, & very toxic to organic neural net still in early learning phase, the CO2/jar/thermometer/’clown in white coat’ one.
Ask any Electrical Engineer what he think about polyphasic power & rotary machine, here again it is Tesla who devised them. Apart from “inventing” the electron, I consider him the creator of modern industrial electrics (production, distribution, utilization). Seriously, this is not something small, we talk about an entire segment of industry! But amazingly this is not all, ever heard of the remotely controlled boat he made, it was in 1898!
Sure it is easy to say: someone had began developing these tech. before… bla, bla, bla… But remember that one of the most challenging stage in R&D is making things work in the real life! Many great mind never stain their hands at this odious task, leaving it to “low level” engineers. Personally I think the one who make something work in the real life, and most importantly make it industrially viable is the one who deserve credit.
Probably, the fact that Tesla was a “little” on the excentric side had probably helped a lot at generating an image of mad scientist, and I suspect the guy had a “penchant” for mystification & making fun w/t good stories (his quality as a showman are demonstrated) as it is reported that he sometimes publicly said that extraterrestrials were making contact w/t him & giving technological info (not sure of this one however). And for those who are not afraid of electrocution, try to built one of those famous Tesla Coils, I made one in my younger & crazier years that was pumping dancing discharges of 18 inchs length. Believe me when I say it is an incredible show when you make these monster play in front of unsuspecting ordinary peoples. Tesla alway had one of these coil active when making convention, even if it terrified the audience.
Of coarse there is a lot of “noise” in the internet about “death ray” & conspiration theory, these may be true or false, but if we just consider concrete & usefull contribution the man gave to civilisation & I’m quite sure it was not exclusively for personal gain (he set Westinghouse free of a contract that would have made him possibly a billionaire mostly for ideologic reason), well I’m not sure about the true value of the car, but for the value of the man I have no doubt.
” Seriously, great sense of humour, that sticker says something that needs to be said, and the fact that you get to say it by driving around in a way cool car makes the rich, the poor, the green and the not so green all jealous, and all for completely opposing reasons. Genius!
”
Yes, if your not Green already then you can get Green with envy.
Now that is one Big A**ed bumper sticker……. RESPECT!…… .LOL. 😉
53% of the tax payers in the US pay nothing which kind of makes you wonder about the term “tax payer” when “tax shirker” is more apt for the majority of wage earners. No “poor” person was made to pay anything for that Tesla. The problem is with the very definition of “poor” in the US. It’s a relative term that has little bearing on true poverty. You want to see poor you need to travel outside North America to do it.
There’s a fine line between genius and lunatic. I’m not sure which side of it Tesla was on but I’m pretty sure his most ardent fans today are on the far side of it.
>>Mooloo says October 14, 2011 at 4:35 pm
>>Electric cars are not a scam. They actually work.
They are a scam, because my turbo diesel does much better mpg than any electric car. Until we start sourcing our electricity from nuclear power, there is absolutely no point in an electric vehicle (apart from relocating pollution from the city to the countryside – but then you just eat the pollution, instead of breathing it.)
If you want vehicular efficiency, why not just cut out the “electric conversion and starage middleman”, and drive the wheels direct. ie, use a turbo diesel.
And please remember that if we turn to electric vehicles, we need to build up to 3 times the number of power station that we currently have. And what will the greens have to say about that?
.
_Jim asks if I ever read any pre-internet stuff.
Yes.
_Jim, I said you have to reach beyond both his detractors AND his cultist acolytes.
I think one has to look at the stuff that’s presented as evidence, no matter how improbable or irrelevant it seems, and see if, under close inspection, without prejudice, it still holds up as evidence. I have to look at Tesla’s whole biography, understand the unusual kind of person we are meeting here, and consider whether his reported actions are logical in his situation.
Science has to reclaim inner realities, today, if we are to progress and find the energies we need (like thorium) and use them well. I also never forget that we always go back to people. So this deepening of Science, for me, starts with openness and courtesy, then attention to evidence from all sides of “Reality”, and attention to Scientific Method, as practiced here, but applied also to things conventional Science considers “unreal” like ghosts, ufo’s, and psychology. The mysteries of existence are fruitful areas for sensitive exploration but Sagan shows deep prejudice, like Brian Cox. Yet naive gullibility is no better. Both have to be recognized before they can be put aside.
Quantum Physics is one area that has given reasonable openings to the way forward. So has the careful study of Crop Circles both “fake” and “genuine”. Even the “fakers” believe there are genuine circles and strange powers with which they themselves interact. One of Richard Dawkins’ acolytes put me on to that – I don’t think he would have left the URL in if he’d taken the trouble to listen for himself to what the fakers actually said!!
Life is full of mysteries. You just need to observe carefully, pay attention, as per Scientific Method.
“Tesla operated by Elon Musk, founder of PayPal.”
Considering what a cutthroat ripoff Paypal used to be, I wouldn’t touch anything Musk was involved in with a ten-foot pole.
Tesla, who effectively “invented” the AC generation and distribution technology which powers the world, would have been mortified if he’d known that a vehicle powered by DC would be named after him. It should have been named after Edison, who was the champion of inefficient, short-range DC power.
There seems to be a lot of confusion about what Tesla (the car) is really all about, but then this is a climate blog. I had the privilege of knowing some of the early employees and witnessed the early evolution of the car.
First, the Tesla roadster was never intended to be a mass production car – it was and is a technology demonstration. The real business will be production of the sedan model(s). Go over to Car and Driver and see what kind of reviews the production prototypes are getting. From the beginning the company has been backed by private investors, not the government. I don’t know if the feds have kicked in anything lately though.
As for the Tesla roadster itself, to say that it won’t go as far as an SUV is drastically missing the point, like saying you wouldn’t want an F-16 fighter because it won’t fly from London to Sydney like an Airbus. The roadster’s primary mission is to go out on Sunday morning and put the whoop-ass on geeks who paid equally ridiculous amounts for whale-tail Porsches. After which everyone adjourns to Starbucks to savor the adrenaline and preen about how much carbon was saved in the process – at least in Boulder. And make no doubt about it – the Tesla roadster is about as close to having a personal 4-wheel F-16 as any of us will ever get (some super-bikes are right up there too).
Of course the stupidity of Colorado and the feds giving huge rebates to such cars is beyond comprehension. The Tesla was designed for those who could afford it without having to ask the price. The fact that boldersolar gave his rebate to charity (hats off!) makes the point. So don’t throw the car-baby out with the eco-loony bathwater. It’s a great car for what it was intended for – to pave the way for creation of a major new car company. We’ll see how it comes out…
The fact that you drive an electric car that is completely charged by solar and wind energy and people are still mad at you just illustrates how fake the “Green” movement really is. You are doing exactly what they want and they still don’t like you! I’m curious about what kind of rebates did you got for the wind and solar systems as well?
View from the Solent says:
October 14, 2011 at 11:25 am
Re Robin Hood & rich/poor.
According to legend, he took it from the local tax-collector and returned it to the overtaxed populus.
That was back in the day when the peasants were revolting over taxes of 1 in 7. 14% taxes. A level of taxes we peasants today can only dream about.
Electric cars are just another example of a ‘Green’ idea based on absolute ignorance. Even a modest use of electric cars [20% of the total] would completely overwhelm any power grid, requiring hundreds of billions, or even trillions, needed to be spent to upgrade the grid.
Rick says:
“I’ve noticed that, myself. When you begin to drive around a new area you can uaually guess the voting patterns by the vehicles you see on the road. Right of centre voting areas are filled with American branded automobiles “Progressive” voting areas, not so much. I find this ironic since American brands are mostly built with unionized labor. Has anyone ever done a study on vehicle registrations or is this just one of those anecdotal urban myths?”
On the Michael Medved some years back I heard him quoting a poll where in fact they determined that liberals were were apt to drive foreign while conservatives tended more towards domestic. When I’m in the liberal bastion of San Francisco at times it seems like I’m the only guy there with an American vehicle.
That’s one of the many reasons why I knew that the Chevy Volt would flop. There is one thing that eco-preeners won’t “stoop” to doing, and that is driving a Chevy.
marcoinpanama,
Tesla claims that their Roadster will do a 12.7 sec quarter with a trap speed of 104mph. I don’t consider Tesla a very credible outfit, and the trap speed seems a little low for that ET with street tires. Anyway 12.7 is a very impressive ET, but it is not going to be beating the upper echelon of sports cars. It’ll be a tad slower than a stock c6 Vette from a couple years ago.
_Jim says:
October 14, 2011 at 5:57 pm
“Mike Borgelt says on October 14, 2011 at 4:00 pm
…
Jim, Tesla was an engineer. He invented the all the parts of the 20th Century electrical power system – alternators, motors, transformers etc over a few days.
…
Mostly on groundwork laid by others; still not seeing a the wealth of evidence that would place him on a pedestal. You pen those words as if you are rendering ‘an enlightenment’, whereas in actuality it is a ‘repeat performance of a long-playing act’ … ”
I disagree. The Tesla coil and the polyphasic engine show a supreme systemic understanding; Tesla was able to imagine how alternating currents would enable these inventions, like nobody else. He was more an experimentator than a man of formulas, but his imagination needed no formulas – he knew how it would work so he skipped the paper part.
Interestingly, the underlying principle of the Tesla coil has an analogon in the mechanical world: the Linde condenser.
see fig.8 here:
http://www.teslatech.info/ttmagazine/v4n2/nichel.htm
More thoughts:
The Tesla is all about torque not horsepower. Below 100 mph it rules. I would love to beat that stock corvette coming off a red light to 60 mph. The gas cars have a higher top end but that doesn’t mean much on our highways. And I wouldn’t call those tires on the Tesla “street tires”.
I get about 1000 miles on them with my lead foot.
Colorado has a flat 4.65% income tax so the poorer folks pay as well.
One thing about acceleration is that it is experienced best when it is accompanied only by the quit whirr of an electric drive. If you are into sound, fury, and noise, by all means get that gas car.
.
Of course nothing beats the acceleration of a $14k 1400cc Ninja.
Bouldersolar,
If they’re DOT tires, and they’re not drag radials then they’re street tires. Apparently the Tesla comes with a performance oriented Yokohama tire.
You seem like a real good sport. I’d be curious to hear your report after a trip to a “test & tune” at your local drag strip. The stop light Grand Pris is not a reliable basis to judge a car’s performance.
If someone wants to arrange things so I’m net ahead $250,000 I’ll get one tomorrow. Anyone? Anyone?
WordPerfect was an illustrative example of one of my father’s aphorisms: “There’s no sympathy for self-inflicted injuries.” After its purchase by Novell, they went almost 2 or maybe 3 years without a product upgrade. That’s like bringing your Civil War Sharps rifle to the Battle of the Bulge. Bad things are likely to happen to you.
anticlimactic says:
October 15, 2011 at 8:59 am
In addition, the battery life is relatively short and are difficult to dispose of. Storage of energy is in need of some advancement.
“Tesla claims that their Roadster will do a 12.7 sec quarter with a trap speed of 104mph. I don’t consider Tesla a very credible outfit, and the trap speed seems a little low for that ET with street tires. Anyway 12.7 is a very impressive ET, but it is not going to be beating the upper echelon of sports cars. It’ll be a tad slower than a stock c6 Vette from a couple years ago.”
Granted, but drag racing is only one measure of performance, With what is basically a reinforced Lotus Elise chassis, on the twisty roads, with gobs of low end torque, it is more fun than a barrel of monkeys – and faster than most production sports cars – in that dimension. And remember, this is nothing but a technology demonstration. The point of the exercise (apart from bringing potential investors back from test rides with wobbly knees and hearts pounding) was to demonstrate that they could build a technical and management team capable of manufacturing serious automobiles. And the performance envelope of the roadster is not a result of any sort of technical limitation, but the necessity to produce a car that could be sold to ordinary mortals, trading off performance for range and safety. In other words, software. I encountered one of the early pre-Tesla prototypes in 2005 (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/mfJ7ock46px5Kkn_7meGrg?feat=directlink), and the owner (a Silicon Valley venture capitalist), told me that the main problem was that it could be provoked into wheel spin at ANY speed. It would indeed be interesting to see what would happen if you put fat tires on it and tweaked the software to allow a range of 1/4 mile. I suspect you would also have to install a liquid nitrogen cooling system to keep the motor and batteries from melting…
Seems to me, everyone in the US is kvetching about how the country has forgotten how to innovate and manufacture. That’s what Tesla is up to and some people can only wish them ill-will (not you Joe). It’s especially telling coming from the eco-greens, which reveals their true motivation to bring civilization to its knees.
I have just one question. Where would I put my kids? I can’t strap them to the top, legally, not to mention the amount of drag they would create.
I had an old Suburban for awhile. Keyed once in Boulder, tire slashed once near the university.
What Swedish cars? Volvo is owned by Geely – a Chinese company. If and when Saab gets out of bankruptcy protection it is being acquired by another Chinese company.
By the way, how much does a Tesla replacement battery pack cost?
Looks like Tesla is just another Solydnra-style scam to get hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars into the pockets Obama bundlers: http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/green-tesla-motors-another-day-another-solyndra/?singlepage=true